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  1. #111

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    How common are characters in non-expert runs with 2300 DEF and 1750 HP? Or 2600HP in that video? Even at 2.6k and Phantom's iframes they go down to a couple hundred or 1HP more than once. At around 10:00 they even got hit by a full volley of lasers for 1.9k damage, and these are good players with good gear.

    Just saying that if you're already carrying in non-expert with the rez timer right now, without that timer you'll need to carry harder and deal with a lot more dead people.

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selphea View Post
    How common are characters in non-expert runs with 2300 DEF and 1750 HP? Or 2600HP in that video? Even at 2.6k and Phantom's iframes they go down to a couple hundred or 1HP more than once. At around 10:00 they even got hit by a full volley of lasers for 1.9k damage, and these are good players with good gear.

    Just saying that if you're already carrying in non-expert with the rez timer right now, without that timer you'll need to carry harder and deal with a lot more dead people.
    Yes, taking 3 seconds to throw fully invincible atomizer is horrible. We should streamline the game more so we can get twice the runs and get our rares twice as fast. It's unacceptable that people die in my MPAs and we don't reach the goals I want.

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by vantpers View Post
    Yes, taking 3 seconds to throw fully invincible atomizer is horrible. We should streamline the game more so we can get twice the runs and get our rares twice as fast. It's unacceptable that people die in my MPAs and we don't reach the goals I want.
    What you're saying is unironically the intent they're designing for.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selphea View Post
    What you're saying is unironically the intent they're designing for.
    Kinda because dumbasses eat it up.

  5. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by vantpers View Post
    Kinda because dumbasses eat it up.
    They've been eating it up for a long time, but we're already long past the stage where failing and dying in EQs actually meant something. A lot of things that have been added over the course of 6 episodes need to change before dying and rezzing can be meaningful again.

  6. #116
    Garbage-chan Kondibon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    I
    2) It's not a design flaw because it is one-shot only and only if both of the following conditions happen: (a) Player is a glass cannon (b) Player does not take evasive actions. I have intentionally stayed afk to see how much damage these flying enemies do when they all focus you, and I can assure you that at ~2300 DEF with 1750HP and HP Restore A from Mag, you will survive getting hit by all of them.
    While I agree that it's not unreasonable for people to just avoid them, asking players to build 2.3k def and 1.7k hp to survive the flybys is a lot more than "not a glass cannon".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    5) The game should punish numerous deaths more actively. I am not saying "Quest Failure" punishment, though I would be happy with that as well. I am saying that people should be using their Halfdolls and Moons, and finally get back to campship once they run out of those options as well. And they should start making use of the quest ranking system to determine rewards.
    The game doesn't need to punish deaths in normal content, especially content like this. The "punishment" is taking longer to complete the content, thus getting in less runs, thus getting less points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selphea View Post
    A lot of things that have been added over the course of 6 episodes need to change before dying and rezzing can be meaningful again.
    I brough it up a while ago, but outside of EQs that force failures for a certain number of deaths (which I'm fine with in the rematch eqs), death hasn't been meaningful since normal mode vol dragon was still a threat. I'd maybe bump that up to HM being relevant, but the point still stands that death has never been more than a minor annoyance for most content, especially in 12 man EQs.
    Last edited by Kondibon; Jun 17, 2019 at 10:00 AM.

  7. #117
    Hardcore Casual Dark Mits's Avatar
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    I wasn't clear: 2.3k DEF + 1.7k HP assumes Deband Drink for RDR buff and TEcher present. Pre-buff states are lower (1,8K DEF + 1,4k HP). I don't think it's an unreasonably defensive build, in fact I get just 55 DEF and 270HP from affixes, which is extremely easy to reach with basic ones that drop around. I'd say the only reason to not be able to reach that, is to have specifically affixed for full damage, which is what we usually call "glass cannon". Having L-Party Toughness and permanent Jerky isn't unreasonable as well.

    Also the game does need to punish mistakes more severely. You cannot have people try to give a damn to improve themselves if you tell that: "Oh no, you critically failed to counter a scripted enemy attack, I will punish you by giving you 5 seconds time out." At the same time, if the difference between doing horribly and doing great is like a 10second difference in the run, then why would I want to try to play well? This lack of punishment is the reason why you also see so many people just afk at Ultra Fields, but also actively gather items once the boss dies.

    Note that when I say severely, I do not mean stuff like 3 deaths and you're out, or 1 death and you're out. I mean stuff like dropping the player's quest ranking to A, then to B, and have A reward 75% of total rewards, B reward 50%. This way the highest rewards are not axed, but the player does not get as many Excubes / Photon Spheres / Disks as in the case of getting S. And it will also help to serve as a way to try to improve one's self.

  8. #118
    Garbage-chan Kondibon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    I wasn't clear: 2.3k DEF + 1.7k HP assumes Deband Drink for RDR buff and TEcher present. Pre-buff states are lower (1,8K DEF + 1,4k HP). I don't think it's an unreasonably defensive build, in fact I get just 55 DEF and 270HP from affixes, which is extremely easy to reach with basic ones that drop around. I'd say the only reason to not be able to reach that, is to have specifically affixed for full damage, which is what we usually call "glass cannon". Having L-Party Toughness and permanent Jerky isn't unreasonable as well.
    As a Su player "lol".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    Also the game does need to punish mistakes more severely. You cannot have people try to give a damn to improve themselves if you tell that: "Oh no, you critically failed to counter a scripted enemy attack, I will punish you by giving you 5 seconds time out." At the same time, if the difference between doing horribly and doing great is like a 10second difference in the run, then why would I want to try to play well? This lack of punishment is the reason why you also see so many people just afk at Ultra Fields, but also actively gather items once the boss dies.

    Note that when I say severely, I do not mean stuff like 3 deaths and you're out, or 1 death and you're out. I mean stuff like dropping the player's quest ranking to A, then to B, and have A reward 75% of total rewards, B reward 50%. This way the highest rewards are not axed, but the player does not get as many Excubes / Photon Spheres / Disks as in the case of getting S. And it will also help to serve as a way to try to improve one's self.
    The game HAS places where that kind of thing can be applied, and it's not normal EQs.

    If you think the difference between playing well and not is only 10 seconds you must be out of your mind. 10 seconds is usually enough to make or break getting another run in anyway. That said, who cares whether or not other players want to improve in casual content in a casual game? Just look at expert matching. So many people just give up on it. What makes you think tying rewards to number of deaths is going to make those people want to improve? Anyone who is dying enough to exhaust everyone's resources probably won't care either way.

    People will AFK for rewards regardless of how death affects them, but I've never even really seen someone do literally nothing.

    EDIT: I think a better way to put what I'm trying to say is that the reward for good play in PSO2 has been overachieving, not avoiding large punishment failure for a long time. In a casual game, rewarding people for doing well is better than punishing people for doing poorly because it gives hardcore players something to strive for, while making sure the game is fun for casual players. It's fine if death is a slap on the wrist that only costs time, in a game where doing well means you want to waste as little time as possible. I've seen the difference in drops from getting 2-1 vs 2-2 alone. Heck, even in the 2-1 runs where people break all the turrets and try to break the flybys I get considerably more drops than my runs where people don't. The point system in the new EQ is perfect for that.

    Heck, if you really want to tie player deaths to it, then losing personal points would probably make more sense, but that's effectively the same as what you said, so eh.
    Last edited by Kondibon; Jun 17, 2019 at 02:25 PM.

  9. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selphea View Post
    They've been eating it up for a long time, but we're already long past the stage where failing and dying in EQs actually meant something. A lot of things that have been added over the course of 6 episodes need to change before dying and rezzing can be meaningful again.
    Be careful what you say about this, or Sega will give us another EQ like Deus rematch or Dragon rematch with death limits.
    "Well, the important thing is, you were mad online about a fictional universe." - Mangini In A Bottle - io9

  10. #120

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    Man, when did it start to be necessary to punish people who may not be playing very well and everybody is up in arms that people "need to" improve. If someone wants to improve, send him or her on getting the super awesome expert requirement done. Even though I still think it's fucking stupid, I think punishing somebody for playing bad is fine for that or in content like solo UQ. But for a regular EQ like this, c'mon. Just let the people have fun. I also don't get why the auto resurrect is so bad in a lot of peoples eyes... isn't it pretty irrelevant if the game auto-revives you or another player does?
    The person will get revived either way (unless the participants of the MPA are all douchebags and even then you could still use your half-doll), so I don't really see the point in that complaint.

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