Étoile Class Discussion

[RubyVixen]

Wand does nearly double what a DB rotation can output

Also post gear, weapons, SSA's etc because we dont know what you're using that could show us an obvious difference as to why you think this way. Could also be your PA rotations too

https://puu.sh/G0lbd/321f61a35c.png DS
https://puu.sh/G0lcS/5b901f0fb6.png DB
https://puu.sh/G0ldU/cf465a976f.png Wand that is shared between TE and ET.

For rotations I'm literally just following the rotations in the OP, except for DS. DS I'm parsing higher with a different rotation. Against slower bosses, I'm doing Skip Arts Celestial Collider > Quick Take > Part 1 of Shooting Star x3 > Full Celestial Collider to lower altitude > Quick Take + DS Gear. It's doing a lot more DPS for me than the listed Rotation in the OP. For bosses that move around a lot more I find DB just does a better job of staying on them and doing damage more reliably.

Units:

Rear https://puu.sh/G0los/d7e0406a0d.png
Arm https://puu.sh/G0lp8/6a9d3ba21d.png (I read Grand S as Grand Strike. Didn't realize it was Grand Shoot until after. This was before they added the patch that lets you see Add Ability stats in the UI. Don't have the money to fix this affix.)
Leg https://puu.sh/G0lra/75592e0941.png

In terms of damage/reliability it is currently going DB > DS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wand for me.

I'm not going to bother getting Stil. It's just not in the cards. I might be convinced to get a Liberate Wand, but I also have all the stuff for an Austere Wand, just waiting for the free grind campaign to do it.

[Zephyrion]

Idk I'm doing significantly better with db than either ds or wand outside of mobbing which has me question the tier list. why am i doing so much better with allegedly the worst weapon?

As I've said in my post, the difference between weapons is very thin, thinner than what people say. Charts were made without taking DB S5 into consideration, and I can say from experience that S5 alone is an insane boost for DB's overall DPS. so I'm pretty sure Wand doesn't do double the rotation of a proper DB, even though when talking equally affixed wand and DB, Wand should still come on top as far as static DPS go

And while I agree Wand CAN boss, its limitations in that regard still show in more hectic fights, where you can't keep your optimal rotations, might get knocked out due to lack of armor and lack of purely reactive defensive cancel options and so on. It's ultimately why I'm very happy with it on slower bosses or stun phases, but much less so on more active bosses, since you can't even keep on your optimal rotations as focus stripe and focus flare are just bad vs anything that doesn't want to stand there and get hurt. non-focus flare somewhat helps with that, but then boss also needs to leave you alone to let the beam animation complete itself , and it's not how things pans out for me. So I'd rather just use the other weapons that naturally deal with it better. When all is said and done though, Wand alone can still deal with most bosses since the kind of boss that really is hard to deal with wand is pretty rare overall still

DB doesn't do much less than the other two and it makes up for that with sheer reliability. Sure the rotations do less but DB hits things consistently, and also does not give a single fuck about what's happening around you due to how strong parry is.

With that being said I still stand by my list, not so much in terms of which weapon is better at one thing, but in terms of which weapons does the most overall, and Wand still has essential mobbing pieces and the highest static DPS, which is why it's overall used more. DS vs DB is pure opinion imo, for using both, I literally prefer one to other depending on the boss I'm facing, and I just gave it to DS because I personally find it better on a few more bosses, but pretty sure that would differ from person to person depending to gear/weapon proficiency/preference

[RubyVixen]

As I've said in my post, the difference between weapons is very thin, thinner than what people say. Charts were made without taking DB S5 into consideration, and I can say from experience that S5 alone is an insane boost for DB's overall DPS. so I'm pretty sure Wand doesn't do double the rotation of a proper DB, even though when talking equally affixed wand and DB, Wand should still come on top as far as static DPS go

And while I agree Wand CAN boss, its limitations in that regard still show in more hectic fights, where you can't keep your optimal rotations, might get knocked out due to lack of armor and lack of purely reactive defensive cancel options and so on. It's ultimately why I'm very happy with it on slower bosses or stun phases, but much less so on more active bosses, since you can't even keep on your optimal rotations as focus stripe and focus flare are just bad vs anything that doesn't want to stand there and get hurt. non-focus flare somewhat helps with that, but then boss also needs to leave you alone to let the beam animation complete itself , and it's not how things pans out for me. So I'd rather just use the other weapons that naturally deal with it better. When all is said and done though, Wand alone can still deal with most bosses since the kind of boss that really is hard to deal with wand is pretty rare overall still

DB doesn't do much less than the other two and it makes up for that with sheer reliability. Sure the rotations do less but DB hits things consistently, and also does not give a single fuck about what's happening around you due to how strong parry is.

With that being said I still stand by my list, not so much in terms of which weapon is better at one thing, but in terms of which weapons does the most overall, and Wand still has essential mobbing pieces and the highest static DPS, which is why it's overall used more. DS vs DB is pure opinion imo, for using both, I literally prefer one to other depending on the boss I'm facing, and I just gave it to DS because I personally find it better on a few more bosses, but pretty sure that would differ from person to person depending to gear/weapon proficiency/preference

my opinion of wand has changed slightly. I just realized that focused PAs have guard frames and that makes bossing with them really really braindead easy lol. Before I was trying to stay far away and spam prism circular > luminous flare. I'm actually getting better damage now by getting in bosses faces and spamming focus prism > focus luminous flare. I'm still getting better overall boss damage with DBs over DS and Wand if I can really focus them down, but I also think that's because my Liberate DB is just better than my Atlus Wand or my Lightstream DS.

[ArcaneTechs]

As I've said in my post, the difference between weapons is very thin, thinner than what people say. Charts were made without taking DB S5 into consideration, and I can say from experience that S5 alone is an insane boost for DB's overall DPS. so I'm pretty sure Wand doesn't do double the rotation of a proper DB, even though when talking equally affixed wand and DB, Wand should still come on top as far as static DPS go

And while I agree Wand CAN boss, its limitations in that regard still show in more hectic fights, where you can't keep your optimal rotations, might get knocked out due to lack of armor and lack of purely reactive defensive cancel options and so on. It's ultimately why I'm very happy with it on slower bosses or stun phases, but much less so on more active bosses, since you can't even keep on your optimal rotations as focus stripe and focus flare are just bad vs anything that doesn't want to stand there and get hurt. non-focus flare somewhat helps with that, but then boss also needs to leave you alone to let the beam animation complete itself , and it's not how things pans out for me. So I'd rather just use the other weapons that naturally deal with it better. When all is said and done though, Wand alone can still deal with most bosses since the kind of boss that really is hard to deal with wand is pretty rare overall still

DB doesn't do much less than the other two and it makes up for that with sheer reliability. Sure the rotations do less but DB hits things consistently, and also does not give a single fuck about what's happening around you due to how strong parry is.

With that being said I still stand by my list, not so much in terms of which weapon is better at one thing, but in terms of which weapons does the most overall, and Wand still has essential mobbing pieces and the highest static DPS, which is why it's overall used more. DS vs DB is pure opinion imo, for using both, I literally prefer one to other depending on the boss I'm facing, and I just gave it to DS because I personally find it better on a few more bosses, but pretty sure that would differ from person to person depending to gear/weapon proficiency/preference

ok so after some Rockbear testing, these are my results:

--- 6mill
Wand: F. Prism -> F. Luminous Flare 3x -> F. Prism -> F. Luminous Flare 2x -> 2x Normal (for pp recov) -> F. Prism -> F. Luminous Flare 2x
(F. = Focus)

--- 5-5.4mill
DS: F. Quasar -> 3x N. Destruction -> N. Shooting Star -> F. Quasar -> 3x N. Destruction -> N. Collide -> Normal WA Explosion
(F.= Forward, N.= Neutral)

--- 4-4.5mill Combo 1, 3-3.mill Combo 2
DB: Radiant -> 3x Distortion -> Radiant -> 3x Distortion -> Radiant
DB: Vertical -> 3x Distortion -> Vertical -> 3x Distortion -> Vertical

I did not use any of the weapon special weapon actions (Wand Explosion, DB Full Connect), I only used DS's normal explosion which technically doesn't compete with the other 2 and it's more utility with some damage than it is something you would use sparingly (since DS norm explosion can't get 1mill+ from a single explosion on RB). Main focus was on RB's head of course but can be inconsistent with certain PA's (i.e. hitting the body more than the head) and the annoying movement when RB is spawning eating into the 20 second timer.

Stil Wand
Astral/Tech6/Phrase Weak/Grace Tech - S1: Augment Intent, S2: Skilled Strike 2, S3: Skilled Strike 2, S5: Mysterious Intent (Lib GS S5)

Liberate DS
Astral/Pow6/Mana Rev/Doom Break3/Phrase Weak/Grace Pow - S4: Life Steal (no S4's with static dmg, so this was a sub), S5: Mysterious Intent

Liberate DB's
Category changed to these from DS so same stuff

________________________________
I guess some points aimed at Zeph

-DB's root you in place when doing your combo's with Pierce (with obvious movement from Radiant/Vertical) even if you're hitting things consistently and you can't constantly spam the Parry WA either and even if you're parrying super well, if the boss is hyper aggressive then you're going to get destroyed eventually or take a lot of unnecessary damage.

-I'm not sure why you think Wand can barely boss when Wand allows you to move reliably, adjust your height, etc without having to gimp your damage in the process. If you're having PP management issues, I can only say to learn manage better or get Lib Wand S5 to fix it, other wise uhh get good I guess. Make use of non-Focus version of the PA's when needed

-You're also rooted in place with DS with it's main PA rotations, the only difference is that you can counter hyper aggressive bosses a lot easier than DB ever can and better flexible PA's to use making it far more superior.

my opinion of wand has changed slightly. I just realized that focused PAs have guard frames and that makes bossing with them really really braindead easy lol. Before I was trying to stay far away and spam prism circular > luminous flare. I'm actually getting better damage now by getting in bosses faces and spamming focus prism > focus luminous flare. I'm still getting better overall boss damage with DBs over DS and Wand if I can really focus them down, but I also think that's because my Liberate DB is just better than my Atlus Wand or my Lightstream DS.

I think if you watched that tutorial video I have in the OP for Wand use you would have saw the Guard Frames when using it's PA's (Focus too), it's stupid good. Ya the downfall is the annoying knockbacks because of no counters etc but once you get the weapon down it's easier to maintain and prevent frequent knockbacks.

Your DS though, I'm not sure why you skipped out on an S2, you could still manage 200 atk with a different build. A loss on crit dmg. DB's are too slow to make proper use of S5: Thundering Pursuit which is why you opt for S5: Mysterious Intent instead. Wand is okay-ish, opt for Skilled Strike SSA's though


Added note: I'll be updating the PA rotations (well DS I guess) later on this weekend, the ones posted there are from the first 2 weeks of the class being out and I haven't actually looked at swiki in awhile to check out whats there (rather I look then forget to come back here and update the OP)

[Zephyrion]

ok so after some Rockbear testing, these are my results:

--- 6mill
Wand: F. Prism -> F. Luminous Flare 3x -> F. Prism -> F. Luminous Flare 2x -> 2x Normal (for pp recov) -> F. Prism -> F. Luminous Flare 2x
(F. = Focus)

--- 5-5.4mill
DS: F. Quasar -> 3x N. Destruction -> N. Shooting Star -> F. Quasar -> 3x N. Destruction -> N. Collide -> Normal WA Explosion
(F.= Forward, N.= Neutral)

--- 4-4.5mill Combo 1, 3-3.mill Combo 2
DB: Radiant -> 3x Distortion -> Radiant -> 3x Distortion -> Radiant
DB: Vertical -> 3x Distortion -> Vertical -> 3x Distortion -> Vertical

I did not use any of the weapon special weapon actions (Wand Explosion, DB Full Connect), I only used DS's normal explosion which technically doesn't compete with the other 2 and it's more utility with some damage than it is something you would use sparingly (since DS norm explosion can't get 1mill+ from a single explosion on RB). Main focus was on RB's head of course but can be inconsistent with certain PA's (i.e. hitting the body more than the head) and the annoying movement when RB is spawning eating into the 20 second timer.

-DB's root you in place when doing your combo's with Pierce (with obvious movement from Radiant/Vertical) even if you're hitting things consistently and you can't constantly spam the Parry WA either and even if you're parrying super well, if the boss is hyper aggressive then you're going to get destroyed eventually or take a lot of unnecessary damage.

-I'm not sure why you think Wand can barely boss when Wand allows you to move reliably, adjust your height, etc without having to gimp your damage in the process. If you're having PP management issues, I can only say to learn manage better or get Lib Wand S5 to fix it, other wise uhh get good I guess. Make use of non-Focus version of the PA's when needed

-You're also rooted in place with DS with it's main PA rotations, the only difference is that you can counter hyper aggressive bosses a lot easier than DB ever can and better flexible PA's to use making it far more superior.

OK I think my previous post was too long since this answer is missing on tons of things I pointed out

- DPS comparison is static DPS, which I already said wand was the best at. I also never said wand can "barely boss" I actually pointed out it's fine vs most bosses but still has trouble vs active bosses with massive cleave (stuff like Execour and Masq, it performs way better vs stuff like step 30 shiva/varuna solely because the mobility lets you get out of range. The focus guard point while nice is just not enough vs this kind of boss, and the mobility only help if it effectively lets you get out of their attack range while still staying in yours.

- Still vs Liberate is pretty darn unfair considering you get free skilled strike SSAs on top of everything else. Also S5 thundering pursuit adds way more than you seem to think it is. Did you know that just distortion is barely more frames than BO's WA into distraction ? I don't see why Et DB wouldn't get even more leeway with it than BO DB with it considering they never even have to heavily rely on Light Wave but BO sometimes has to indulge in Kestrel when fever is not up.

- Test without WAs is also pretty darn unfair, considering parry and single connects being so key to DB play. In a classic log, connects are actually an even bigger part than DS counter damage, let alone Wand WA. Remember connect boosts gear gen and so do the parries, meaning in any active fight, you'll spend nearly half of your time doing connects on average (full connect is a trap as it does't even increase your overall DPS while making you vulnerable for no reason, it has its places in some patterns for bursts/getting extra on a boss running away but that's it). You also probably didn't mess with parry enough, especially post buff, when it's by far the best at both avoiding damage and dealing with spam. you're invul a good second post parry, and during that time you can either re-parry again if it's a multi-hit, or just chill and wait for an easier window. Mastering parry means it's hard to get ever knocked out of anything during any situation really, which makes the fact the weapon is stationary an advantage ! It lets you farm for parries without consequences which in turns lets you farm for invuln connects and gives massive uptime.

In any case tl:dr I'm not saying you're overrating wand, I'm just saying it's not Hero Sword or Phantom Rod level where it's the best and most comfortable answer everywhere. Wand has to put work on SPECIFIC bosses to perform similarly to DS and DB; I'm also saying you're underrating DB overall, and its buffs especially a fair bit (fair that most don't matter, but the gear and parry ones do, a lot). It's still arguably the worst of the 3 but not by such the large margin you're thinking

[ArcaneTechs]

In any case tl:dr I'm not saying you're overrating wand, I'm just saying it's not Hero Sword or Phantom Rod level where it's the best and most comfortable answer everywhere. Wand has to put work on SPECIFIC bosses to perform similarly to DS and DB; I'm also saying you're underrating DB overall, and its buffs especially a fair bit (fair that most don't matter, but the gear and parry ones do, a lot). It's still arguably the worst of the 3 but not by such the large margin you're thinking

except Wand IS the Sword/Rod to Hr/Ph. You can overglorify Et Dual Blades all you want but it will not change the fact it is the worse of the 3, not worse as in "hey don't use these" but worse as in it will never be on par with Wand or DS until it gets a proper buff.

[Zephyrion]

except Wand IS the Sword/Rod to Hr/Ph. You can overglorify Et Dual Blades all you want but it will not change the fact it is the worse of the 3, not worse as in "hey don't use these" but worse as in it will never be on par with Wand or DS until it gets a proper buff.

I've never been overglorifying it, I'm just acting as the voice of reason because you've been pretty much hinting it's exactly just trash, like WL tier trash (especially with a test that involves non-connect non S5 thundering no parry static DPS, which is like really bad stacking, imagine taking RA rifle with powering intent SSAs against mobs and then use that to say Launcher > Rifle xD). And again, while I also agree Wand is the superior weapon out of the 3 DS vs DB have been performing very similarly post DB buff so I'm really just putting things back in order here Wand > DS more or less = DB (depends on situation etc) which was the point of my first post AND followups xD.

[ArcaneTechs]

I've never been overglorifying it, I'm just acting as the voice of reason because you've been pretty much hinting it's exactly just trash, like WL tier trash (especially with a test that involves non-connect non S5 thundering no parry static DPS, which is like really bad stacking, imagine taking RA rifle with powering intent SSAs against mobs and then use that to say Launcher > Rifle xD). And again, while I also agree Wand is the superior weapon out of the 3 DS vs DB have been performing very similarly post DB buff so I'm really just putting things back in order here Wand > DS more or less = DB (depends on situation etc) which was the point of my first post AND followups xD.

If im giving off the vibe that DB is trash, its not what im going for. Also, you try fitting in realistic rotations within the spam of 20s for FC and Wand WA, i was doing purely PA dmg tests. Obviously the output would be higher but to have Full Connects 1mill hit against DS normal explosion wouldnt be fair either.

Absolutely disagree on Et using S5 Thunder still, Bo can proc it way more and makes more use of it than Et could, if DB PAs were faster than I would agree

[Zephyrion]

If im giving off the vibe that DB is trash, its not what im going for. Also, you try fitting in realistic rotations within the spam of 20s for FC and Wand WA, i was doing purely PA dmg tests. Obviously the output would be higher but to have Full Connects 1mill hit against DS normal explosion wouldnt be fair either.

Ok it's all fair then, I was just under that impression but guess it was just me, we're just mostly agreeing and splitting hairs at this point anyway.
Re-reading myself I also realized you could be on the impression that I'm saying wand is heh, which is defo not what I was going for, the PH and HR comparison was more like "Sword and Rod pretty much invalidate the use for the other two weapons except for pure utility (gear for Hero, Phantom can kind of specialize in the Katana by taste but you're still losing on lots of value, and lets face it, the only rifle a rod user would ever go for is Genon xD)" but While wand is inarguably the best weapon out of the 3, it doesn't fully invalidate the other two weapons in the same sense, although it's still the best in most situations !

[Reilet]

The only thing i'm seeing is that you guys suck with using DB lol. If you can't get full connect within 20s every single time, then you are just bad.

Second, ds's best combo is and always was 2x shooting star and 2x celestial. The first parts only.
Third, wand's best combo is flare -> glitter stripe + wa tele cancel.
I've known this since day one and is even shown on my dps charts.

If you wanna use the generic standard combo of luminous + prism and destrution + quaser then the dps will be exactly the same as db's normal rotation.

Also, you use the same weapon for testing or their best setup for testing. The instant there is variation in this, you already fucked up your testing.