So many thing, so little room

[Brett]

Okay, I've wanted to do this forever and never have. I'll try to do this in paragraphs although I suck at that. Here goes:

1st issue: Can we stop the arguements of legits? There's a grey area here, for all who think you're legit, or a cheater. There is no set standard for who's a cheater and who's not. That is why there is grey, disagreement. And unless ST or Sega releases a statement saying what you have to do to be legit, then there is NO OFFICIAL RULING! So stop arguing about it, for the love of whatever god, goddess, object, or otherwise you worship/believe in, STOP!

2nd issue: Stop complaining about complaining. It's plain annoying. Anyone can see that, it's not entertaining, it's bull shit. There is no point to it except to disagree, and you don't have to complain to disagree.

3rd issue: When will everyone learn (not that many don't know, because saying that would be what I'm against) stereo-typing is wrong. I'll prove it 2 ways: First off, the school way. Not all nerds have braces and glasses. Not all cheerleaders are sluts. Not all jocks are stupid. Number 2 is the next issue.

4th(and final)issue: Stop stereo-typing cheaters and legits! God, when will it end?! Not all cheaters are out to ruin your fun, talk like ass holes, and come in normal games to experience hog, or exp. hog period. Not all legits are rude to cheaters, act like they're the best, and act snobby.

To sum up the last issue, don't even think it unless you can prove it. IF YOU CAN PROVE TO ME THAT EITHER THE LEGIT THING OR CHEATER THING I SAID ISN'T TRUE, I WILL PAY YOU ALL THE MONEY I EVER GET AND BE YOUR ETERNAL SLAVE! I say that, because you can't. Because it's not true. Because ALL cheaters are not like that, and ALL legits are not like that. So get it right, stop arguing about it, it's childish. Argue with me if you wish, but I assure you, everything I said here is in some way, correct.

[trypticon]

Hey man! Long time no post!

Just thought I would respond and say hello, and to tell you that making a topic like this is like shoving a written message through a brick wall.

However, all is not lost. I can expect a few people, in particular, to come upon this thread later on tonight and add to it. I am imagining Superguppie, first and foremost, to quote everything you said while including his own interjections, as well as Ian Kunx, and Boguskun. Then violetskye will show up, and shut just about all of them up.

I am only writing this because it is the normal follow-through for the posts on the cheaters forum. Maybe by responding in this manner at all, you will be avoiding that for this thread.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: trypticon on 2004-02-23 18:33 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: trypticon on 2004-02-23 18:35 ]</font>

[Brett]

Heh, yo, couple of reasons for that:

A. Once I got rid of bb I started not going to any of the sites I had favorites of on internet explorer, and started using my MSN ones.
B. Once I got rid of bb, I started being quite inactive online altogether.

But I guess you could thank Outlaw, the leader of the clan I'm in, Outlaws of Ragol, *subliminal message "join"* He posted bout the team center, and altho I haven't been able to join it and pm'd him, him posting about that got me active on this site about 1 hour to 30 min. ago today, lol.

And btw, yea, you're right lol, but I had to get this out.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brett on 2004-02-23 18:34 ]</font>

[Rogue100]

Can we stop the arguements of legits? There's a grey area here, for all who think you're legit, or a cheater. There is no set standard for who's a cheater and who's not. That is why there is grey, disagreement. And unless ST or Sega releases a statement saying what you have to do to be legit, then there is NO OFFICIAL RULING! So stop arguing about it, for the love of whatever god, goddess, object, or otherwise you worship/believe in, STOP!

In general, Brett, I agree with you! There is one thing, though it may sound somewhat nitpicky! The ToS, which every player must agree to before playing the game online, is a statement by ST/Sega about what is and is not allowed in the game, regardless of whether those rules actually get enforced or not. Obviously, this can only refer to some forms of play which are generally looked at as being unlegit, mainly hacking, but also to a lesser degree duping. If you do these things, does that make you wrong or a bad person, not neccesarily, but it should at least be acknowledged that you are breaking the rules of the game.

Beyond that, I think it comes down to a matter of personal taste about which forms of questionable play, such as recoboxing, boss tricking, piping, character tweaking etc. provide a better or worse gaming experience. Everyone is going to have their own personal opinion on each of these things, and I agree that it should be left up to the individual player's disgression about how they want to approach each one, whether you agree with them or not.

I definitely agree, though, that for either side to stereotype the other is just plain stupid, because no matter what side of the "legit line" a person falls on, they can still be a jerk, or they can still be a cool player.

[VioletSkye]

I gave this some thought and the first thought that popped into my head was that everything that can be said about this, has been said so many times over that even the new people can say with some level of confidence (been there, seen/heard that.)

So why is that? Does it revolve around the game that at first glance seems to be so central in our connection with each other? I don't think so. Lets jump out of our current reality for a moment and let me set the stage for us. Suppose that the PSO "fairy" comes tonight as we a re nestled soundly in our beds. Realizing that the foundation of PSOW's membership spans the globe and that our nighttimes are not the same, we will pretend for the sake of this example that they are.

Daylight fades from the horizon and the Sandman pulls extra duty tonight and sends us all into slumberland. When we wake, everything seems normal. Same resisdense, same family, everything....except no PSO. No game disks, no modems, no BBA's.....nothing. We are still cognizant of PSO's existence however and aware of the fact that just the day before we played.

After the initial flood of posts concerning our missing games and theories as to what happened, things go quiet for awhile. We are made aware of the fact that no more disks are available and that there are no plans to produce any more. So what happens, does the forum die off? Maybe, but not right away. After x amount of time, people will begin posting again about their past PSO experiences. Recanting the time they found item a or item b. Discussing gameplay issues, asking questions about certain aspects of the game. In essence, that exact same things we discuss now.

In time though, someone will make a comment about an item, maybe darkFlow, Dark Bridge, Red Ring etc. that wasn't found legitly. That will be followed up by a myriad of comments on both sides of the fence (that being legit vs. cheater) and we will be back to square one, which is where we are now. And why is that? because its human nature to want to discuss, argue, take sides, express opinions etc.

Now lets jump back to the current reality in which we all still have our games. Mr. Legit goes online and has a bad experience because Mr. Cheater joined his game and was killing everything off in 1 hit. Mr. Legit comes to PSOW and complains about it, only to have the cheaters rise against him and the legits try and support him. Now supposing we are in my aforementioned alternate reality. Instead of Mr. Legit experiencing his game being ruined, he simply retells of that time (past) in a post. What happens? Same exact thing that happens now. You may think its entirely because of the game, but its not. In reality it has nothing to do with PSO. Swap out PSO with any online game and the argument is the same.

This tells us that no matter what the subject matter is, no matter how many times something has been discussed, no matter how many times you fight against/for something, no matter which side you choose, there will always be this consistency of content in regards to opinions and expressing them. Is it kinda pathetic? Definitely. Does it become tiresome? Absolutely. Is it ever going to completely change? I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Ness]

Violet, your sig is sweet.

But seriously, I agree with you Brett, but there will probably be some people here that will say that you are wrong juast becasue it goes agaisnt what they believe and they can't admit error.

[darthsaber9x9]

u know threads like this are begining to lose their....impact

people stating the obvious do's and dont's regarding the legit vs non legit arguments. there really is no point in these topics at all because people wont take a blind bit of notice. so in a way there is a kind of irony....(you work it out for yourself lol)

in a slightly different note, violet's post is intriguing. and true

[Superguppie]

On 2004-02-23 18:23, trypticon wrote:
However, all is not lost. I can expect a few people, in particular, to come upon this thread later on tonight and add to it. I am imagining Superguppie, first and foremost, to quote everything you said while including his own interjections, as well as Ian Kunx, and Boguskun. Then violetskye will show up, and shut just about all of them up.

Hm, nice scenario. I had almost missed this one, and then it wouldn't have happened.
And I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit. I don't remember being shut up by VioletSkye.
Oh, VioletSkye already responded. And I agree that it has all been said and done before, except for the "stop complaining about complaining".

So, let the disection begin:

On 2004-02-23 18:10, Brett wrote:
1st issue: Can we stop the arguements of legits?

Uhhh, no. As long as cheating affects me, I will complain and respond to others complaining. And as long as people keep responding, there's arguments. Learn to live with it. I have.

There's a grey area here, for all who think you're legit, or a cheater. There is no set standard for who's a cheater and who's not. That is why there is grey, disagreement.

The grey is not in legit or not. Legit means sticking to the rules. If you don't stick to the rules, you're not legit. I can see grey, but that's about what is within the rules and what isn't. But I am under the impression only very few arguments here are about that.

And unless ST or Sega releases a statement saying what you have to do to be legit, then there is NO OFFICIAL RULING!

Uhhhh, EULA in the manual and (as Rogue100 already noted) ToS whenever you go online, mixed with local legislation. Again, I can imagine that there is discussion on what is according to those rules and what isn't, but with that reservation being legit is simply following those OFFICIAL RULES.

So stop arguing about it, for the love of whatever god, goddess, object, or otherwise you worship/believe in, STOP!

Well, by everything that I value, NO! As long as there is room and need for argument, This topic group was made for it. If you don't like it, don't look here anymore.

2nd issue: Stop complaining about complaining. It's plain annoying. Anyone can see that, it's not entertaining, it's bull shit. There is no point to it except to disagree, and you don't have to complain to disagree.

grin. This one is waaaaay easy. This whole post looks more like a rant-complaint than a way to start a discussion. So, take your own medicine and stop complaining about complaining about complaining...

3rd issue: When will everyone learn (not that many don't know, because saying that would be what I'm against) stereo-typing is wrong. I'll prove it 2 ways: First off, the school way. Not all nerds have braces and glasses. Not all cheerleaders are sluts. Not all jocks are stupid. Number 2 is the next issue.

I agree there. And as far as I can tell, I don't stereotype, unless for making a joke that I know to be a joke. If someone can convince me I am, I'll stop it right away.

4th(and final)issue: Stop stereo-typing cheaters and legits! God, when will it end?! Not all cheaters are out to ruin your fun, talk like ass holes, and come in normal games to experience hog, or exp. hog period. Not all legits are rude to cheaters, act like they're the best, and act snobby.

Uhhh, I think 3 and 4 are the same. Unless you mean that saying something is wrong (3) doesn't mean it should stop (4). In my book it does...

To further elaborate on the remark about the ToS:

On 2004-02-23 18:59, Rogue100 wrote:
If you do these things, does that make you wrong or a bad person, not neccesarily, but it should at least be acknowledged that you are breaking the rules of the game

I couldn't agree more. But I think that most cheaters acknowledge being cheaters. Most of the cheat-using legits are only so out of ignorance. Many do away with the cheats once they know them.
I would like to add that anyone breaking the rules, and acknowledging it should also acknowledge the (potentialy) negative effects of it on other players. And I personaly think that anyone knowingly harming others is at least a bit a bad person.

Beyond that, I think it comes down to a matter of personal taste about which forms of questionable play, such as recoboxing, boss tricking, piping, character tweaking etc. provide a better or worse gaming experience. Everyone is going to have their own personal opinion on each of these things, and I agree that it should be left up to the individual player's disgression about how they want to approach each one, whether you agree with them or not.

As long as there are no side-effects to others, I agree.

@VioletSkye: I never got much from horror stories, but this one. Ahrg, that really makes me sweat... By everything that I value, if that fairy exists, his/her existence is in jeopardy.
The effect described after the initial horror is already visible. Several posters here have explicitly stated they don't play PSO anymore, yet they keep posting. Especialy when it comes to cheating.
Oh, and the EXP deprived Mr. Legit wouldn't get me on his side. EXP hogging is not a cheater thing, it's an asshole thing. Also, it is annoying, but easily avoided. For the rest of the remark I agree. The discussion will be there no matter what. Learn to live with it.

And a nice language error:

I wouldn't hold your breath

Ok, I can imagine you holding your breath, but you holding mine?

Hm, the King of Quote has struck again.

[Zarana]

Here's how we can stop legits from arguing. Take a look at this little excerpt from the Terms of Service.

You agree to abide by the following standards set forth in this Agreement, the EULA, and the Rules of Conduct. Without limiting the foregoing, You agree that You will not use the Sega.com website(s), Phantasy Star Online, the Official PSO Website, or the PSO Server to:

(1) post, transmit, or cause to be posted or transmitted, any inappropriate Content, which includes Content that (i) violates any third party's intellectual property or other rights, (ii) is unlawful, threatening, harassing, libelous, privacy invading, vulgar, harmful, pornographic, indecent, obscene, hateful, or otherwise objectionable, or (iii) contains software viruses;

So it seems legits who harass dupers are also in violation of the Terms of Service they love so well. When both parties are breaking the rules, there is no "right" side. By threatening a duper or invading their privacy, you are in just as much of a ban-worthy violation as they are.

Additionally, here are the cheating provisions of the Terms.

You are prohibited from engaging in the following activities:

Alteration of a PSO character's statistics.
Unauthorized creation of a PSO character.
Alteration of PSO character equipment/item data.
Unauthorized creation of PSO equipment/item data.
Alteration of any of PSO's provided features, storyline, or game contents.
Impersonation of, or misrepresenting your affiliation with, any other person, including without limitation, PSO Customer Support, SEGA, or any employee of SEGA.
Accessing or using any Serial Number, Access Key or Account of another PSO subscriber.

You are also prohibited from:

Creating or distributing (includes rendering distributable) programs and/or data intended to be used for cheating activities to another PSO user or third party.

Taking advantage of any bug discovered in the PSO or PSO Server to gain any advantage, as well as communicating the existence of any such bug, in any form, to another PSO user or third party.

Attempting to intercept, decode, reverse engineer, reverse decompile, reverse assemble or otherwise alter any data or messages sent to or from the PSO Server.

Do you see the loophole in this that doesn't prevent using dupes, as long as you didn't dupe them yourself? Because I sure do. Provisions are made for the creation and distribution, but absolutely nothing for after the dupe has already been passed to someone else.

So wait, if a technicality in the Terms of Service makes Johnny J-Sword's collection of traded dupes as legal as if he found them himself, exactly who is in the wrong when a legit harasses a dupe user? Think that over for a second.

Now don't misunderstand my side on this. I'm as legit as the sun is bright, but you zealots are starting to bug me. Why can't you just live and let live? According to your own Terms of Service, you have to. So why the hold up?

[BogusKun]

On 2004-02-24 06:01, Superguppie wrote:

On 2004-02-23 18:23, trypticon wrote:
However, all is not lost. I can expect a few people, in particular, to come upon this thread later on tonight and add to it. I am imagining Superguppie, first and foremost, to quote everything you said while including his own interjections, as well as Ian Kunx, and Boguskun. Then violetskye will show up, and shut just about all of them up.

Hm, nice scenario. I had almost missed this one, and then it wouldn't have happened.
And I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit. I don't remember being shut up by VioletSkye.
Oh, VioletSkye already responded. And I agree that it has all been said and done before, except for the "stop complaining about complaining".

I couldn't agree more myself... Why not rant about Cheaters Vs. Legits? Well I have a 50/50 take on this for 2 good reasons.

1) Good interesting topics
2) Always ends up in flames, and someone mentioning the past events when ADE was around.

Sure it gets repetitive but, we have to have something to laugh at? Meh~!

On 2004-02-24 09:52, Zarana wrote:
Here's how we can stop legits from arguing. Take a look at this little excerpt from the Terms of Service.

You agree to abide by the following standards set forth in this Agreement, the EULA, and the Rules of Conduct. Without limiting the foregoing, You agree that You will not use the Sega.com website(s), Phantasy Star Online, the Official PSO Website, or the PSO Server to:

(1) post, transmit, or cause to be posted or transmitted, any inappropriate Content, which includes Content that (i) violates any third party's intellectual property or other rights, (ii) is unlawful, threatening, harassing, libelous, privacy invading, vulgar, harmful, pornographic, indecent, obscene, hateful, or otherwise objectionable, or (iii) contains software viruses;

So it seems legits who harass dupers are also in violation of the Terms of Service they love so well. When both parties are breaking the rules, there is no "right" side. By threatening a duper or invading their privacy, you are in just as much of a ban-worthy violation as they are.

Additionally, here are the cheating provisions of the Terms.

You are prohibited from engaging in the following activities:

Alteration of a PSO character's statistics.
Unauthorized creation of a PSO character.
Alteration of PSO character equipment/item data.
Unauthorized creation of PSO equipment/item data.
Alteration of any of PSO's provided features, storyline, or game contents.
Impersonation of, or misrepresenting your affiliation with, any other person, including without limitation, PSO Customer Support, SEGA, or any employee of SEGA.
Accessing or using any Serial Number, Access Key or Account of another PSO subscriber.

You are also prohibited from:

Creating or distributing (includes rendering distributable) programs and/or data intended to be used for cheating activities to another PSO user or third party.

Taking advantage of any bug discovered in the PSO or PSO Server to gain any advantage, as well as communicating the existence of any such bug, in any form, to another PSO user or third party.

Attempting to intercept, decode, reverse engineer, reverse decompile, reverse assemble or otherwise alter any data or messages sent to or from the PSO Server.

Do you see the loophole in this that doesn't prevent using dupes, as long as you didn't dupe them yourself? Because I sure do. Provisions are made for the creation and distribution, but absolutely nothing for after the dupe has already been passed to someone else.

So wait, if a technicality in the Terms of Service makes Johnny J-Sword's collection of traded dupes as legal as if he found them himself, exactly who is in the wrong when a legit harasses a dupe user? Think that over for a second.

Now don't misunderstand my side on this. I'm as legit as the sun is bright, but you zealots are starting to bug me. Why can't you just live and let live? According to your own Terms of Service, you have to. So why the hold up?

For some reason when I play Nintendo games, I have to sort of PLAY the game... I usually don't start cheating/hacking games until I'm somewhat done with it. Just as anyone else, but remember PSO as far as the community, changes everyday.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BogusKun on 2004-02-24 10:23 ]</font>