An improved argument against cheating.

[ADE]

Why not? Sure I'm done with BB, but I'm still intrigued by people thinking online cheating is OK.
--------------------------------------------

I just read over an old argument, and noticed how it was going. Basically I would state a fact based on a premise (the premise being the ToS). I would receive responses stating things like "Stop cramming your opinion down our throats."

I got frustrated and didn't know how to respond to such things. Now it's almost two years later, and I've had significant training in philosphy, logic, and reason, and it's time to take the big guns to these cheaters who think there is no difference between "matters of fact" and "matters of opinion."

Suppose the ToS of PSO is true. From that it would follow that any statement made in alignment with it is VALID. Thus, stating that "cheating in PSO is wrong" is NOT an opinion. It is a fact.

Getting angry at someone for pointing out a fact is a shortcoming of the reader, not the writer. Thus, getting angry at him and banning him (which is what happened in the past) is illogical.

I am reminded of Plato's Apology. Socrates, an ancient philospher, was sent to trial on the following charges:

-Corrupting the youth (by teaching them philosophy)
-Not believing in the gods
-Minor crimes such as getting someone to believe a "wrong answer was right"

Socrates basically got his accusors to contradict themselves IN COURT, thus proving their charges to be false, and they STILL F0UND HIM GUILTY.

Think about what happened in the past. A person made a post full of FACTS and people came back at him saying that such statements were making them uncomfortable and causing them to miss out on enjoyment in PSO and on the message boards. The person who stood up for what was right essentially got executed because such a horde of people disagreed with him. That's akin to 99 mathematicians who think that 2+2=5 executing 1 mathematician who thinks that 2+2=4. It just doesn't make sense.

Another point that needs to be deconstructed. Aristotle teaches that a man needs to be balanced. This means that man requires leisure time. If two human beings engage in leisure time by playing games, there are certain rules they follow to maximize their enjoyment of the game. By cheating in an online game, you are increasing your enjoyment of the game whilst decreasing someone else's enjoyment. Thus, you are negatively affecting another person's leisure time, and are harming part of what makes him a "balanced man." Therefore, any inauthentic action towards another human being is ALWAYS WRONG, even if it's under the umbrella of leisure time. Thus, any time anyone here has stated "It's just a game", you may as well have said nothing, because that point does not hold up at all.

Human intellect is naturally drawn to correct answers. When a one uses his mind to find something that's correct, he doesn't stumble past it as if though it were merely another incorrect answer. If one is the MOST APT to find the correct answers by being a balanced individual, then treating others well AT ALL TIMES is part of that balance. Treating others well insures that you will be treated well. But there's more to it than that...

One shouldn't just do the right thing because it will make others do the right thing, since that lowers it to the level of "action-reward." One should embark on a path to discover if being good to others is beneficial even if there is no reward. If man has a conscience, then the answer would be yes. So I guess it's up to you to decide whether or not you have a conscience, and a built in sense of right and wrong. If you DO have that sense, then it becomes necessary to examine all of your actions, be them at work or in leisure time.

[PJ]

Ok, I don't want to go 50 feet from this whole, "Argument," but I want to point out, you weren't banned for pointing out, "Facts." You were banned for your... how to put this? Unsocial behavior.

[ADE]

If a mass of people believe an objectively INCORRECT fact and someone points it out, it would naturally follow that they would errorenously label him as unsocial.

Using the above logic, there is no disputing the fact that online cheating is wrong.

So we have our 99 math guys that think 2+2=5 and the one who KNOWS it is 4 points it out, and they get disgusted with him for producing unrest. What would be worse: for him to ignore such a thing and allow them to go on believeing something inocorrect, or to try to help them and explain himself by using simple examples?

What I can't come to understand is if people are disagreeing just for the sake of being spiteful, or if they really DON'T understand the argument. I guess if people just want to be spiteful then there's nothing that I can do. But continuing to stand my ground against spite is not wrong.

I can understand how a young person might not understand the logic behind this because many young people have this impression that "Whatever makes me feel good is OK to do." Heck, I used to be that way. I think it takes some examination that taking inauthentic actions towards others (such as cheating in an online game) causes greater harm than the action itself. For example, it can frustrate people and make them enjoy a fun part of their day a bit less, thus lessening the enjoyment of their day.

To turn around and say "Well if they're getting worried about a game...." Stop. Remember, man needs leisure time. And one man is not qualified to tell another how to spend his leisure time if it is being spent in a virtuous manner. Do not forget this, and do not raise that "It is just a game" argument as a valid point considering it has been disproved.

What I see happening is that I can make any point, and people always return to "It's just a game." They seem to forget that their statement holds no water given Aristotle's parameters. So does this mean everyone here is incapable of keeping two cogniscent thoughts in mind at the same time? If the "It's just a game" argument is invalid (which it is), then all subsequent ethics apply to the game.

I'm sorry if it makes some of you angry to see that you're actually harming others when you think you aren't, but can't you see that I'm trying to be as peaceful about this as possible? Would you please, for the sake of maintaining yourself as a human being, try harder to keep ethics in mind at all times? I would greatly appreciate it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ADE on 2005-11-10 00:10 ]</font>

[Delfi]

Wow Ade - mathematicians thought that 2+2=5?? <<is this fact or just a made up example by you??

If it is a made up example by you then wouldnt you have been better using the "Christopher Columbus Vs. The Entire Population" argument when they all believed the earth was flat???

That aside now for my views on cheating in PSO.It is wrong all wrong i tell you, and cheaters should be instantly banned for a year or so after all PSO is more a way of life than a game.If you cheat at life, (= kill ppl, steal things, and so on..) you are banned from your freedom by having to have to spend a stint in prison or house arrest.But on the other hand if it was not for the "cheaters" we would never see all the game has to offer - and if it was not for people dissassembling game code - we would not have drop rates or would we???
The last statement is taken from the fact that ppl say they got the drop rates from "the game code"<<their words not mine.

I notice that a lot of people on this site have cheated at some time or another on PSO - so after all is said and done.. just do as i have done - delete the cheaters from your friends list - STOP PLAYING WITH THEM, and only play with ppl who dont like to cheat - or failing that play alone. After all the final choice is YOURS to decide who you play with.

Advice to any cheaters - please dont sit in the lobby and tell everyone daily that ure bored.(ROFL).

[ADE]

Not trying to necessiarly stop anyone from cheating. I just want them to do it knowing that it is totally wrong. I think some of them don't have a sense of it. So I'm trying to remove their ability to rationalize it out any further.

[metatime]

I think most people online know what they are doing, there are a few that honestly don't know so educating about whats legit and whats not is important, after that it is not our job to make them legit or not. Some are just so stupid that they try to justify why a hacked item is legit.

I usually use sports as an analogy. Sports are games. They have a set of rules that everyone that is playing in the game must abide by. If they break the rule, then they are punished. Problem with PSO is that there isn't a referee type of person.

Once you agree to those rules, then cheating in turn becomes a fact not an opinion. You kick a soccer ball out you do a throw in, You touch a soccer ball then its a penalty, you hit a tennis ball out of bounds, then your opponent gains a point. No if, and, buts.

[TheOneHero]

This stopped being an arguement long before you even posted this.

Now it's an obsession.

You gotta ask yourself, who the hell cares anymore? It's a game, and although we've had wonderful memories on it; met some of our best friends in life, you need to let it die.

[digigram]

Hell, I haven't played PSO in a year and I'm sick of the discussion. I was sick of it the moment I ever played it. Tried to argue it, tried to understand why people cheated, now i'm more irritated with those that can't get it through their head that it will never change.

It's not even worth fighting for, unless you were in a tragic accident rendering your mobility to nothing and cannot get out of bed for the rest of your life. Then I could see it as even barely a serious matter, due to not being really capable of entertaining yourself in any other way. You don't cheat, they do, oh well, it's a shitty game, get past it and understand that you are better than them (in game).

In time, with no abbrasion towards them, you will slowly find that the old cheaters give birth to new, more ignorant ones. In the end, when the servers are long gone, you'll find that user made servers will have the exact same amount of people playing legitimately or cheating.

Seriously, this arguement is so god damned old, it didn't help then, and it won't help now. It isn't like you hold some form of "logic" or a "philosophy" that they are unaware of that unlocks a door in their mind exposing them to how evil a thing they are doing. They are doing it, because they don't give a shit. It's as simple as that, you can't make sense of someone that gets off on particular sexual fantasies other than a branch in the tree of their lives that you will never know or experience in the same way.

You play normal.
They cheat.
If you fight against them influencing you to cheat, they will do the exact same thing.

[Saiffy]

I'm not going to say cheating is right, or wrong.

I just read over an old argument, and noticed how it was going. Basically I would state a fact based on a premise (the premise being the ToS). I would receive responses stating things like "Stop cramming your opinion down our throats."

We can't help it if that is indeed what you were doing, generally speaking, in matters such as this(Don't even go off with the 2+2 bullshit), if the majority say you're cramming your opinion down their throats, then you must be.

I got frustrated and didn't know how to respond to such things. Now it's almost two years later, and I've had significant training in philosphy, logic, and reason, and it's time to take the big guns to these cheaters who think there is no difference between "matters of fact" and "matters of opinion."

Well, we'll see then as we continue to read this post I guess o:

Suppose the ToS of PSO is true. From that it would follow that any statement made in alignment with it is VALID. Thus, stating that "cheating in PSO is wrong" is NOT an opinion. It is a fact.

It states cheating in PSO is illegal. Far from morally wrong. Now, I'm assuming that you're referring to cheating being morally wrong, so I apologize if I'm assuming wrong.

Getting angry at someone for pointing out a fact is a shortcoming of the reader, not the writer. Thus, getting angry at him and banning him (which is what happened in the past) is illogical.

It may be fact, but there's a difference between legally wrong, and morally wrong. I'd say stealing is wrong, but if you need to feed your family(Ah, the classis scenario), it's not any less wrong in the eyes of the law, but morally it's more accepted.

I am reminded of Plato's Apology. Socrates, an ancient philospher, was sent to trial on the following charges:

-Corrupting the youth (by teaching them philosophy)
-Not believing in the gods
-Minor crimes such as getting someone to believe a "wrong answer was right"

Socrates basically got his accusors to contradict themselves IN COURT, thus proving their charges to be false, and they STILL F0UND HIM GUILTY.

All I am saying on this, is human beings have evolved. Yes, arguably he shouldn't have been found guilty. But humans have learned from the mistakes of the past. You can't honestly compare something that happened thousands of years ago to what happened on a forum for a game. Especially since this wasn't the reason you were banned.

Think about what happened in the past. A person made a post full of FACTS and people came back at him saying that such statements were making them uncomfortable and causing them to miss out on enjoyment in PSO and on the message boards. The person who stood up for what was right essentially got executed because such a horde of people disagreed with him. That's akin to 99 mathematicians who think that 2+2=5 executing 1 mathematician who thinks that 2+2=4. It just doesn't make sense.

You can't compare morals to solid mathimaticals. You never can, never will, and this is getting more than a little old. 2+2 always equals 4. But cheating doesn't always equal wrong.(This goes for any other 'illegal' act)

Another point that needs to be deconstructed. Aristotle teaches that a man needs to be balanced. This means that man requires leisure time. If two human beings engage in leisure time by playing games, there are certain rules they follow to maximize their enjoyment of the game. By cheating in an online game, you are increasing your enjoyment of the game whilst decreasing someone else's enjoyment. Thus, you are negatively affecting another person's leisure time, and are harming part of what makes him a "balanced man." Therefore, any inauthentic action towards another human being is ALWAYS WRONG, even if it's under the umbrella of leisure time. Thus, any time anyone here has stated "It's just a game", you may as well have said nothing, because that point does not hold up at all.

You may follow Aristotle's teachings, not everyone does because you do, therefor that entire paragraph is like 'you may as well have said nothing, because the point does not hold up at all.'

Human intellect is naturally drawn to correct answers. When a one uses his mind to find something that's correct, he doesn't stumble past it as if though it were merely another incorrect answer. If one is the MOST APT to find the correct answers by being a balanced individual, then treating others well AT ALL TIMES is part of that balance. Treating others well insures that you will be treated well. But there's more to it than that...

Humans aren't always right. Far from it.

One shouldn't just do the right thing because it will make others do the right thing, since that lowers it to the level of "action-reward." One should embark on a path to discover if being good to others is beneficial even if there is no reward. If man has a conscience, then the answer would be yes. So I guess it's up to you to decide whether or not you have a conscience, and a built in sense of right and wrong. If you DO have that sense, then it becomes necessary to examine all of your actions, be them at work or in leisure time.

Nice guys finish last, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be nice, but you do have to earn my respect and do something to trigger me to do something nice for you. You simply cannot say I have no conscience because I'll do nothing about cheating in PSO. At the end of the day, you may have heard this before, but it's just a game. It was never anything else, and it never will be anything else.

Ahem, moving on.

What I can't come to understand is if people are disagreeing just for the sake of being spiteful, or if they really DON'T understand the argument. I guess if people just want to be spiteful then there's nothing that I can do. But continuing to stand my ground against spite is not wrong.

People have opinions, if you're opinion conflicts with there own, of course they're gonna argue it. You're thinking that everyone is either with you, or against you, and it simply isn't so.

I can understand how a young person might not understand the logic behind this because many young people have this impression that "Whatever makes me feel good is OK to do." Heck, I used to be that way. I think it takes some examination that taking inauthentic actions towards others (such as cheating in an online game) causes greater harm than the action itself. For example, it can frustrate people and make them enjoy a fun part of their day a bit less, thus lessening the enjoyment of their day.

To turn around and say "Well if they're getting worried about a game...." Stop. Remember, man needs leisure time. And one man is not qualified to tell another how to spend his leisure time if it is being spent in a virtuous manner. Do not forget this, and do not raise that "It is just a game" argument as a valid point considering it has been disproved.

What I see happening is that I can make any point, and people always return to "It's just a game." They seem to forget that their statement holds no water given Aristotle's parameters. So does this mean everyone here is incapable of keeping two cogniscent thoughts in mind at the same time? If the "It's just a game" argument is invalid (which it is), then all subsequent ethics apply to the game.

Like before, not everyone follows those teachings, so everything here is null.(That is to say, null to those who do not follow those teachings)

I'm sorry if it makes some of you angry to see that you're actually harming others when you think you aren't, but can't you see that I'm trying to be as peaceful about this as possible? Would you please, for the sake of maintaining yourself as a human being, try harder to keep ethics in mind at all times? I would greatly appreciate it.

You can't ignore what other people are saying because you want us to feel bad for you. People in these arguments have always been calm, collective, and intellegent about it. If you play with fire, prepare to get burned. And making this topic in the first place started a fire, you can't just run away from it because "you're right, we're wrong", then come back a few months later and start a new fire.

EDIT: digigram wins.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saiffy on 2005-11-10 08:47 ]</font>

[Solstis]

Hmm... ADE, you weren't banned for telling the truth, but sorta beating people over the head with it. I agreed with you (mostly), but found that you were a little abusive to other forum members.

Well, here's a few points:

Point 1: Cheating on PSO is illegal.

Point 2: Cheating disrupts the functions of PSO

Point 3: Cheating exists in the real world, as either an escape from a bad situation or an escape.

Point 4: Cheating in the real world can be considered "functional" as it serves a purpose (people in prison provide an example to say: hey, don't do that).

Point 5: People do not cheat on PSO to gain equality (to me, the only valid reason to commit any legal act), and instead for "fun."

Point 6: Even if you cheat only because other people are doing it, you are still committing an illegal act; supposedly to level the playing field.

Point 7: There are, or were enough legitimiate players to balance the playing field if everyone had not jumped the cheating/duped item bandwagon. There was a balance at one point, but then the young-teen population decided that cheating would give them the edge that they "need." Boom, explosion of FSODers, Junior "Hackers," and dupes. I really didn't care, and ended up using duped items.

Point 8: The legit community was so arrogant that it refused to accept those (in many cases) that used dupes - they most likely, if allowed to play with legits, would have stopped using them eventually altogether. Rejection = further acception of alternative means = further cheating.

Point 9: Well, cheaters are "wrong," legits are "wrong," this argument will go no where, and I'm hungry.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2005-11-10 08:58 ]</font>