[Outrider]

Originally Posted by Akaimizu

That's the thing. Is it really a male power fantasy to be a hulk? Maybe to some men, but it isn't some universal truth. My dream was always to be an entertainer and a musician, so I never had big strong muscles as a thing to look up to. I'd rather go for lean and mobile on myself.

Considering how much of the world doesn't go by physical strength, I don't know if this can be the same claim as some think it is.

As for the strong men thing, I think it's only because it is publicized so much that Muscles get the women, that it becomes somewhat of a conditioned truth in some circles. Particularly in materialistic schools (like every other public school) for which the jocks do tend to be more favored.

Weird. I heard this same idea from somebody else just the other day.

The fact that you don't consider it the ideal or that it isn't your fantasy doesn't change the fact that it's a power fantasy. The focus of the character's design is their physical strength and imposing nature. They are built in such a way to make them look powerful.

With female characters, they are often designed with a major focus on their sex characteristics (such as oversized breasts or a costume that exposes as much skin as possible even if it doesn't make sense.) The character is designed not to look powerful but to look sexy.

It sounds more like you're raising concerns with the idea that these stereotypes are "idealized" portrayals of men and women which isn't what is being suggested when describing them as power fantasies or sexual fantasies (unless the implication is that power and sex are inherently male or female traits, which is decidedly false).

[Akaimizu]

Not that I was suggesting that. It was more of the case that someone is implying one is ideal the other isn't. I mean, in what way do you consider it an unfair comparison and by what kind of view? Especially in which many of the cases the physical muscle strength isn't what gives them the advantage. Maybe in a specific game where you actually play Hulk (strongest one there is) or something. Because the main thing is ripping up impossibly large structures with your super strength. But alas, Hulk games aren't exactly the common thing.

That fact that someone brings up the power fantasy and sexual one in the first place is already suggesting some sort of scale for which you are questioning itself. That's what I'm questioning, because if they aren't raising those concerns, then why did they bring that up in the first place?

I also agree that the traits is decidedly false which is why I actually even spoke up in the first place. It's the idea that many of these arguments are brought up in the first place by those making those implications, and I don't see the evidence that they aren't doing so.

[.Rusty.]

Originally Posted by Akaimizu

That fact that someone brings up the power fantasy and sexual one in the first place is already suggesting some sort of scale for which you are questioning itself. That's what I'm questioning, because if they aren't raising those concerns, then why did they bring that up in the first place?

The power fantasy stuff comes up because some people argue that men are sexulized just as much as women. But most of the time its what a lot of guys want to be and not what women are attracted to. Like if i was batman i could do what i want and wouldn't have to take shit from anyone.

Where as women often end up in passive / submissive roles and if they do end up fighting they usually are designed to be as sexy as possible.

So the male side is better because they often take a more active role.
But like you said not every one wants the power fantsy stuff because people are individuals which is why gender roles are dumb.

And all this stuff is normaly written by dudes for dudes which is why some women complain about it.

[Akaimizu]

^ Though they'd be surprised how many times this stuff is released with women doing the input to the direction of the game. It's more about marketting to the highest population of the market and what is perceived by the developers as to what they want. But like history tells us, that games do change with the perceived population of gamers.

When we first grew up, (of course some of this was technology), games generally were more kid safe with few exceptions. But as the gaming group grew up, the amount of mature-rated games grew. My argument is that it is just a market thing and the solution is so simple. People want to picket and or jump on the idea that "Man is gaming so imbalanced" when all they really have to do is show that they actually play videogames. As the market continues to wake up to the idea that videogames are not limited to one gender, they'll automatically work their way to catering to more interests in fantasy. Now some of this was a social engineering problem. For a lot of people, and for a long time, there was a peer pressure for girls not to play videogames in the US. There was a definite idea that games were gender-bound. Of course, that did lead to the issues some people talk of now. All those years of improper videogame perception did lop-side the audience. And videogames follow the market.

It's all money, that's all I'm saying. It'll change with the population. The solution is quite easy.

[.Rusty.]

Originally Posted by Akaimizu

^ Though they'd be surprised how many times this stuff is released with women doing the input to the direction of the game.

Probably not as internalized misogyny and misogyny in the work place are things that exist.

Seriously tho guys you gotta be kinda naive to think both genders are treated 100% equal in society.

[Akaimizu]

Originally Posted by .Rusty.

Probably not as internalized misogyny and misogyny in the work place are things that exist.

Seriously tho guys you gotta be kinda naive to think both genders are treated 100% equal in society.

They aren't. Thus why we even bring up Social engineering in there, in the first place. It's a life long thing, and it starts since the day you're born. Your point is my point exactly, but it goes a little further than that.

Just saying that videogames always have catered to the percieved majority, with those who think this is a money-making idea. The idea that many more female characters are in videogames, kicking butt and making a difference, is change. The tropes may not have completely shifted; it is still heavily biased between gender, race, etc. However, if you can take a historical spyglass and look at the kinds of videogame characters represented each decade, there's a good bit of alterations made with the changing audience. In the old days, girls were only made for saving. Nowadays, they're often right in the party with you, if it is not you, kicking butt along-side you. And no longer do they just simply have to be Mages and Clerics.

Erasing tropes doesn't happen overnight. Even outside of videogames it can seem to 1 generation to seemingly take forever. It's great to play outside the tropes. I'm a HUGE HUGE supporter of that, and anybody here can see my history of characters and backstories to see what I make and why I make them. Constantly fighting the battles against false stereotypes. But I also recognize that as much as you try to force things just out of the blue, it often doesn't happen that way. You have to hit them with the true motivation. The idea of bucketloads of money if you manage to target an even larger audience willing to heavily increase sales.

Of course, sometimes things break expectations a little. Some of us wanted more combat-oriented female clothes for Phantasy Star because that game, a long time ago, did the genius thing to break convention. Right from Phantasy Star 1, how this all got started was the efforts of a strong lead female wearing full adventure outfit, carrying a sword, and going warrior style. She became the heroine that is the original basis for what all Phantasy Star combatants strive to be, or achieve.

It definitely raised the expectations for a breaking of gender stereotypes within an RPG series. In occupation, I would say, it still carries some; but the clothing somehow got lost in the IP.

[BIG OLAF]

Originally Posted by .Rusty.

Seriously tho guys you gotta be kinda naive to think both genders are treated 100% equal in society.

I'm fully aware that the genders aren't 100% equal, but women aren't the only ones with issues. Sure, they'll argue that men's issues 'don't matter', or 'aren't as important', but to me, that's equally sexist.

Which is why I look at the broader picture, and support rights for every group where it's due, and don't focus on one "side" of the fight.

[.Rusty.]

Not expecting things to get better over night. Its just media / social problems sometime exist in a self sustaining feedback loop.

Originally Posted by BIG OLAF

I'm fully aware that the genders aren't 100% equal, but women aren't the only ones with issues. Sure, they'll argue that men's issues 'don't matter', or 'aren't as important', but to me, that's equally sexist.

Which is why I look at the broader picture, and support rights for every group where it's due, and don't focus on one "side" of the fight.

:: bangs head on desk ::

I never said women aren't the only ones with issues. But if you just dismiss some ones opinions because of a political label you are kind of part of the problem.
It is sometime possible to be prejudiced with out knowing it.

:Hint: the women that say men's issues 'don't matter' are misandist idiots who shoud be ignored just like the MRA who blame all there problems on women.

[Outrider]

The fact is that in general men are in a position of power within our culture, while women are often placed at a significant disadvantage due to their gender.

Nobody is saying that men don't have problems, but the fact is that their gender as a whole is doing much better off than women, hence people focusing on the larger problem.

[spade88]

Originally Posted by Outrider

The fact is that in general men are in a position of power within our culture, while women are often placed at a significant disadvantage due to their gender.

Nobody is saying that men don't have problems, but the fact is that their gender as a whole is doing much better off than women, hence people focusing on the larger problem.

Well put is all I can say...