Braver Class Talk

[Kondibon]

I think what Giga is trying to say is that knuckle gear's payoff doesn't offset the amount of time it take to build when compared to how quickly it drains when compared to other gears.

It's not that they're "hard" to maintain, or that giga is being lazy for not bothering with it, just that the pay off isn't worth the effort that does have to go into them. Look at weapons like wired lances, twin mech guns, and dual sabers. The weapons function normally without their gear, but the gear itself is a buff on top of their normal functionality, whereas knuckles NEED their gear to even be comparable to other weapons. Knuckles are supposed to be a fast, high damage, short ranged weapon, but... unlike katanas they don't start fast and get faster, they start slow and get... kinda... still slow...

Decreasing their hitstop is a start, but their base attack speed should be increased as well.

Now that I've 60'd Braver I've had the chance to do some experimentation with different things and...

I stand before the jury today to present a case for...Braver as a sub to Hunter. HU/BRA.

A close examination of both the Braver and Fighter tree will leave you thinking that there's a clear and obvious winner. Brave and Wise give 40% and 60% respectively, while Average and Weak give 20% and 40% respectively, the key factor here being that each of these stances have a different set of conditions with the exception of Average Stance.

For general running around and loligagging you're likely to run A.Stance. As a fighter you generally tend to run with B.Stance (because *gasp* mobs spawn in front of you). You lose 20% of your potential but gain the versatility of not having to bother positioning yourself to make sure you're in front of your target. So while the damage % loss is existent, I think there could be at least something to be said for a stance that requires absolutely no attention to detail. Maybe not from a DPS perspective, but from a practical one.

The major thing to note is that Brave is often the most activated stance when you have a FI sub. Bosses are generally facing you anyway because you're doing so much damage and you probably have aggro. There are a few select situations on certain bosses where you'll put wise. Most often bosses have a weak point, which means if you're diligent enough to hit it, you can have W.Stance active and be matching the damage of a HU/FI running Brave (which is mostly all of them most of the time) without worrying about positioning, just aim for the weak points and as long as you do that your output has the same potential as a HU/FI, with simply a conditional measure.

However, in circumstance where a HU/FI can have Wise Activated, unfortunately the HU/BR lacks the ability to close that damage gap, but it's a good thing these specific circumstances aren't nearly as common as braver for logical reasons at that.

You get a stronger Assault Buster (I think this is a pretty significant mention) if you take the charge skill, and if you tailor a Braver tree specifically as a sub you can max J.Recovery for a 20% heal on every J.Reversal (which can be pretty significant as well). If you let ability get on to your mag since raising any of the main stats with weapons also raises ability, you can max Braver Mag and make some extra stats out of that, increasing the overall level of your mag, and the base stats it gives you. Having A.Stance is also way more condusive to "AOE-like" PAs. The new Wirelance PA is an amazing example, actually. It hits everything around you in a "kanran-like" way but much smaller range, but if you're using it as a brave or wise stance HU/FI in the middle of mobs, you're going to lose a significant portion of that damage somewhere, while A.stance lets you close the gap by simply increasing the damage no matter whether frontal or rear. This also goes for Other Spin (commonly used), Heavenly Fall...a lot of the WL PAs actually...and several of the other Weapons PAs.

Overall I feel like you have the ability to be "lazier" by using average stance, that it's an incredibly close race in mobbing potential due to being able to use "AOE" PAs more effectively, and ultimately you can match the output of a HU/FI in most boss situations but with simply a different conditional dynamic from the FI stances.

I wouldn't have really ever preached Braver as a viable sub, but I'm prancing around lately as a 60/60 HU/BRA and I'm feeling pretty positive about it.

Thoughts?

This is something I've been thinking about, but while messing around with build ideas i realized something. Unlike the fighter stances the braver stance ups are only 10% at max instead of being equal to the base stance skill. This means that if and when braver gets more stance ups (which I'm pretty sure it will) you'd HAVE to invest in only one stance if you wanted to get the most out of it, as you'd be too strapped for points, even as a sub, unless you drop the stance charges I guess. Still, I hope this pans out, braver has a lot of potential as a sub but right now the multipliers aren't really there.

Though personally I'd probably take it as a sub for AQs or something over fighter for the very reason you stated. It would be better for mobbing since you don't need to worry about positioning for all the AoEs.

[gigawuts]

Back to the point of the thread...

Yeah, I want to like hu/br, I really do, and hunter does offer a handful of charging PAs so there's a bit of synergy in theory, but I'm not sure I'm really seeing it. Maybe if nova strike and rising edge were boosted, and maybe if guilty break is super amazing (I haven't got it yet), but unless we're talking about fighting vader with its back and forth fighter stance canceling antics or general MPAing, fighter will have more going for it providing you're on the correct side.

And that's something I hope they amend. If braver offered ~40% on non-charge skills average stance I'd say it was a good fit, sacrificing the 4%-29% extra damage for the benefit of extra mobility and attack angle options. 21% though...that's too low for me. I'll eat the penalty on hu/fi sometimes if it means getting 44%+ the rest of the time.

[Shiyo]

maybe if guilty break is super amazing

It is, use it. Also nova strike and rising edge are super super super SUPER good vs bosses, your best attacks besides guilty break and overend(if applicable, aka mobs fallen over)

Also, zipzo, you have no idea how Fighter stances work at all. HU/FI is generally more dmg than HU/BR most of the time.

[Zipzo]

Back to the point of the thread...

Yeah, I want to like hu/br, I really do, and hunter does offer a handful of charging PAs so there's a bit of synergy in theory, but I'm not sure I'm really seeing it. Maybe if nova strike and rising edge were boosted, and maybe if guilty break is super amazing (I haven't got it yet), but unless we're talking about fighting vader with its back and forth fighter stance canceling antics or general MPAing, fighter will have more going for it providing you're on the correct side.

And that's something I hope they amend. If braver offered ~40% on non-charge skills average stance I'd say it was a good fit, sacrificing the 4%-29% extra damage for the benefit of extra mobility and attack angle options. 21% though...that's too low for me. I'll eat the penalty on hu/fi sometimes if it means getting 44%+ the rest of the time.

It's a matter of perception in this case as I generally tend to favor and regard bonuses that increase or level my boss performance over skills that better my mobbing performance, and in this case, my hypothetical Weak VS Brave is what is sort of keeping me in tune with the combination as something worth trying, but I'm with you on the "meh" in the direction of A.Stance VS Brave, though I still preach it's ability to create more damage with AOE PAs.

A BR sub build doesn't even need to contain the charge skill. I probably won't even take it since I rarely abuse Assault Buster (and never the sword ones) because I'm sort of a Wirelance addict. I think there's a small bit of room for play style somewhere here, but you know, it is what it is sometimes.

I think it's fair to say we all wish everything was viable in the same way, and that the only relative choices to make were simply ones that were inherent to play style or aesthetic value instead of effective-ness or necessity.

Also, zipzo, you have no idea how Fighter stances work at all. HU/FI is generally almost always more damage.

You're not the shiniest apple, are you? I just gave you a perfectly reasonable explanation for my theories, maybe you could do the same instead of stating the obvious based on the %'s.

[SakoHaruo]

I already explained that. It's not a gear, it's a vital component to the weapon's performance and, at its release, barely even benefited the weapon due to the horrible hitstop. Knuckle gear would frequently not even compensate for the hitstop, meaning swinging at air without gear would be faster than hitting targets with it. That's terrible. It should be an integral part of the weapon, with gear offering some different kind of benefit - just like wand gear should be built into wands and if wands had a gear it should be something that actually added onto that. You can't go taking the entire point of a weapon and calling it a gear.

You are either incredibly thick and completely unable to understand what it is I'm writing (sorry about all the big words), or intentionally not taking notice of all the parts where I've already covered these points - in neither case should I be feeding you the extra attention you're demanding since you're demonstrating you're incapable of handling the attention you've already been given.

None of this has anything to do with braver, so I'd appreciate it if you'd put your epenis-measuring ruler away because nobody wants to hear about how great you think you are at videogames.

I'll admit that some of you do post some very informative stuff, and with the little time I do spend on psow I know that Giga is one of them. but still, there's nothing wrong with having something on hand to back up the shit that come out of your mouth, right? I mean, if I ever said one of the game mechanics was bad I would have everything I need to back up my opinion. talking about it is pointless, especially when I'm using the machine that runs the game. and yeah this isn't the fighter class thread. I'd like to continue this convo tho, maybe in private?

[Cyclon]

I'm not so sure your first statement is true. If I deadly archer a Cater for example a little off-set from the center to the tail in the heads direction, I don't think I get the Brave bonus. I only have FI at 48 so my experience isn't extensive but I'm quite sure that's the case.

Yeah, that would be true, because what matters is the part of the enemy you hit. Not how it's positioned compared to you; if you hit the front, even if the target's behind you, you get brave bonus, same with wise if you hit the back while it's in front of you. I use Nova strike to aoe things behind me all the time so I'm pretty sure that's correct.

Also the whole point of the post was I was explicitly explaining how the damage boosts are equiveleant to that of FI given you take advantage of the skills properly.

Yup, the rest was more of an additional worthless comment. I... tend to do those. The bulk is that I guess it works.
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I think what Giga is trying to say is that knuckle gear's payoff doesn't offset the amount of time it take to build when compared to how quickly it drains when compared to other gears.

It's by far the easiest gear to build in the entire game. I'm of the opinion it'd offset pretty much anything except being called fake capture.

It's not that they're "hard" to maintain, or that giga is being lazy for not bothering with it, just that the pay off isn't worth the effort that does have to go into them.

But there is no need for effort. It's easy and I'm not doubting of anybody here's capacity of using it to its fullest.

Look at weapons like wired lances, twin mech guns, and dual sabers. The weapons function normally without their gear, but the gear itself is a buff on top of their normal functionality, whereas knuckles NEED their gear to even be comparable to other weapons. Knuckles are supposed to be a fast, high damage, short ranged weapon, but... unlike katanas they don't start fast and get faster, they start slow and get... kinda... still slow...

Okay, gears cost one point, that's a fact, sometimes you even need more points to access them. But even then, they're an entire part of a weapon to me, and as such it doesn't matter if the base material is bad because you WILL have the gear anyway if you plan on using a weapon seriously. We are talking about a version of the game where people don't use gears and I'm not sure it exists so how is it relevant? It's like saying force sucks without PP charge revival. And yes, it does, but that's irrelevant because everybody takes it. It's assumed you have it. Why treat gears any differently?
The way I see it, a weapon is judged by every tool it has, and do you really disagree(uh, that's directed at gigawuts)? Do you not consider katana combat a part of katanas? That's an honest question here, because I'm not pretending to be in your head.

Also uh, not angry here. May sound like I'm angry. I'm not:3
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and maybe if guilty break is super amazing (I haven't got it yet).

It's decent. Excellent for movement, only decent for damage dealing.

[Shiyo]

You're not the shiniest apple, are you? I just gave you a perfectly reasonable explanation for my theories, maybe you could do the same instead of stating the obvious based on the %'s

If you attack falz elder wise stance activates almost the entire time, even though you're facing in front of him. That's one example of how stances work.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It's decent. Excellent for movement, only decent for damage dealing.

Comparatively speaking to other sword PAs, it's amazing.

Mobility with 2 sonic arrow's worth of damage uncharged in a quick attack with a decently wide hitbox is damn nice.

Yeah, that would be true, because what matters is the part of the enemy you hit. Not how it's positioned compared to you; if you hit the front, even if the target's behind you, you get brave bonus, same with wise if you hit the back while it's in front of you. I use Nova strike to aoe things behind me all the time so I'm pretty sure that's correct.

To be more clear, it's where you are in relation to the front/rear of the enemy and not what part you hit.

You can apply brave stance damage bonuses to gu/ga wonda weak points by standing between them and their shield and using DA. Doesn't matter where you hit. What matters is where you are.

Falz may confuse people mostly because falz is considered to be in the middle of the platform for the entire fight for some reason.

[Zipzo]

I don't fucking care about your stupid bullshit examples, you're fucking retarded because you don't know how FI stances work.

Just going to leave this here, despite your edit, for hilariousness purposes.

If you attack falz elder wise stance activates almost the entire time, even though you're facing in front of him. That's one example of how stances work.

Yeah...that's not so much to do with the stances than it has to do with the boss itself. That fight is just well tailored specifically to Wise Stance for many definitive reasons. In the end, it's not even really a fight I'm concerned with optimizing for either. It's Falz.

[Kondibon]

Yeah, that would be true, because what matters is the part of the enemy you hit. Not how it's positioned compared to you; if you hit the front, even if the target's behind you, you get brave bonus, same with wise if you hit the back while it's in front of you. I use Nova strike to aoe things behind me all the time so I'm pretty sure that's correct.
Yup, the rest was more of an additional worthless comment. I... tend to do those. The bulk is that I guess it works.
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It's by far the easiest gear to build in the entire game. I'm of the opinion it'd offset pretty much anything except being called fake capture.
But there is no need for effort. It's easy and I'm not doubting of anybody here's capacity of using it to its fullest.

Okay, gears cost one point, that's a fact, sometimes you even need more points to access them. But even then, they're an entire part of a weapon to me, and as such it doesn't matter if the base material is bad because you WILL have the gear anyway if you plan on using a weapon seriously. We are talking about a version of the game where people don't use gears and I'm not sure it exists so how is it relevant? It's like saying force sucks without PP charge revival. And yes, it does, but that's irrelevant because everybody takes it. It's assumed you have it. Why treat gears any differently?
The way I see it, a weapon is judged by every tool it has, and do you really disagree(uh, that's directed at gigawuts)? Do you not consider katana combat a part of katanas? That's an honest question here, because I'm not pretending to be in your head.

Also uh, not angry here. May sound like I'm angry. I'm not:3
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It's decent. Excellent for movement, only decent for damage dealing.

I should rephrase what I was saying. You take the weapons as their wholes right? Well even with knuckle gear Knuckle is only on par with a gearless weapon, which is what I was trying to say. It's not that knuckles are just bad without their gear, it's that even with the gear they aren't that good.