[Tra]

I made this guide specially for those that are particularly interested... which means that not a lot of you are.

1. We'll see how tech damage is calculated
2. We'll see how fast each tech can be cast using rod/wand and different units
3. How do we compare to the other forte classes?
4. We'll compare damage between those that are playing half-ass at fT and those that are hardcore
5. What happens in the future in AoI?

before that, here's a link to my other guide, it's about leveling your techs, quite closely important concerning this guide.
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.p...=22&start=0&56

************************************************** *********

Section 1: Tech Damage

Tech damage is calculated in 5 steps.

---------

Step 1:
Your base TP, your unit, your weapon, your armor are totalled up.

Example:

I am an 80/10 newman female fT

1287 is my base TP
I'll add in 280, from my Sori / TECH Charge unit
704 from a Howrod +10

Note: The TP from your armor (hiragi-senba, yamata-senba, kotoha-senba etc) will not show.

Totals 2271 TP

---------

Step 2:
Your total TP is multiplied by the damage multiplier of each tech, then divided by 5

Level 30 Diga (280%): 6358
Level 30 Zonde(135%): 3065

divided by 5

Diga: 1271 damage
Zonde: 613 damage

---------

Step 3:

Retier, simply increases your damage.
Level 1 Retier (1-10) : 10%
Level 2 Retier (11-20) : 15%
Level 3 Retier (21-30) : 20%

Level 3 Retier with diga and zonde

Diga: 1525 damage
Zonde: 735 damage
...is the damage you will get if you hit a non-opposite element monster

---------

Step 4:
Elemental weakness is calculated by...


This is something that very, very many people are ignorant of. It's a little hard to explain, but to dumb it down, EVERY level you gain on a tech, the elemental modifier increases as well. You'll notice this as you level up a tech on the same type of monster, you'll be doing less and less damage. (Diga for example, if you spam it on earth enemies, each level you gain, you'll deal less and less damage). I will provide screenshot proof if anybody wishes to inquire.

Here are their elemental modifiers in tiers of levels (1, 10, 20, 30)
Level 1 Techs: 11% elemental
Level 10 Techs: 20% elemental
Level 20 Techs: 30% elemental
Level 30 Techs: 40% elemental

If you understand this, you'll understand that there is a big difference in damage between a level 21 tech and a level 30 tech. It is not just the damage modifier that the status window shows you. A level 21 rabarta compared to a level 30 rabarta is about 200 damage in difference! That's a very, very significant amount. (Around 25% more). So make sure, if you want to do your best, do your very, very best and max those techs. =)

Another example is, when you first buy a level 1 tech, try it out on a neutral monster first (barta against a lightning monster), then try it another monster, one with elemental weakness (barta against a fire monster). You'll see that it isn't 50% more damage as most people perceived, not nearly as much.

so anyway...

Level 30 Diga: 2135 damage
Level 30 Zonde: 1029 damage

---------

Step 5:
Elemental modifier of the weapon you're using...

Rod can reach 12%, Wand can reach 4%. The elemental damage only comes in if you're using the right elemental on the right monster. (12% ice rod does nothing if you are hitting an earth monster, only fire)

12% rod

Level 30 Diga: 2391 damage
Level 30 zonde: 1153 damage

Like so: =)



---------

Step 6:

Finally... MST deduction is calculated after your initial tech damage.
The calculation goes by MST / 4

Say a level 80 enemy has 287 MST
that means he'll reduce your damage by about 72 every hit.

Diga: 2319 damage
Zonde: 1190 damage

If not used on an elemental weakness...

Diga: 1453 damage
Zonde: 663 damage


---------

Steps 2, 3, 4 and 5 can be calculated in any order. =)



************************************************** *********

Section 2: Cast Times

Many people argue about which unit is best and don't have any exact proof of what they are saying. I have it all here.

• Level 1+ Techs
  
  
  Wand (Casts per minute)
  . . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Basic Techs . .40 . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  Ra Techs . ... .34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  Gi Techs . .. . 32 . . . . . . . . . 37 . . . . . . . . . . 40
  Dam Techs . . 12 . . . . . . . . . 12 . . . . . . . . . . 12
  Megiverse . .. 6.5 . . . . .. . . . 6.5 . . . . . . . . . . 6.5
  Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
  Buffs/Debuffs .34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  Giresta . .. . . 18 . . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . . . 30
  Resta . . .. . . 36 . . . . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  Reverser . .. . 40 . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  
  
  ----------------------------
  
  Level 11+ Techs
  
  
  Wand (Casts per minute)
  . . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
  -----------------------------------------------------------
  Basic Techs . .38 . . . . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . . . . 40
  Ra Techs . ... .32 . . . . . . . . . 37 . . . . . . . . . . 40
  Gi Techs . .. . 30 . . . . . . . . . 36 . . . . . . . . . . 38
  Dam Techs . . 7.75 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . 8.25
  Megiverse . .. 6.5 . . . . . .. . . 6.5 . . . . . . . . . . 6.5
  Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
  Buffs/Debuffs .32 . . . . . . . . . 37 . . . . . . . . . . 40
  Giresta . .. . . 18 . . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . . . 30
  Resta . . .. . . 34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  Reverser . .. . 36 . . . . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . . . . 42
  
  
  ----------------------------
  
  Level 21+ Techs
  
  
  Rod (Casts per minute)
  . . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
  -----------------------------------------------------------
  Basic Techs . .28 . . . . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . 32
  Ra Techs . ... .24 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 29
  Gi Techs . .. . 22 . . . . . . . . . 26 . . . . . . . . . . 28
  Dam Techs . ..5.75(46). . . . . .6(4. . . . . . . . 6.25(50)
  Megiverse . .. 5.75(2. . . . . .6(30). . . . . . . . 6.25(31)
  Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
  Buffs/Debuffs .24 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 29
  Giresta . .. . . 15 . . . . . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . . . . 24
  Resta . . .. . . 26 . . . . . . . . . 29 . . . . . . . . . . 30
  Reverser . .. . 28 . . . . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . 32
  
  
  Wand (Casts per minute)
  . . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
  -----------------------------------------------------------
  Basic Techs . .36 . . . . . . . . . 39 . . . . . . . . . . 40
  Ra Techs . ... .30 . . . . . . . . . 35 . . . . . . . . . . 36
  Gi Techs . .. . 26 . . . . . . . . . 32 . . . . . . . . . . 36
  Dam Techs . ..6(4. . . . . . . . 6.25(50). . . . . . 6.75(54)
  Megiverse . .. 6(30). . . . . . . . 6.25(31). . . . . . 6.75(33)
  Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
  Buffs/Debuffs .30 . . . . . . . . . 35 . . . . . . . . . . 36
  Giresta . .. . . 18 . . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . . . 30
  Resta . . .. . . 32 . . . . . . . . . 36 . . . . . . . . . . 40
  Reverser . .. . 34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42

Nos-techs have an uncontrollable casting time. Meaning, you can cast quickly, the projectile comes out faster if you equip a quick unit, but you're going to be stuck there for a set duration which you won't be able to do anything until it's over. (not even able to open up your palette to ready a weapon switch or item)

Dam-techs tick their damage once every second, 8 times per cast. Pretty much multiply the number of casts shown above by 8 and you'll get how many times that the dam-tech hits. (Lv21+ only, I'm not bothering to do any of the dam-techs that are under lv21)

Megiverse ticks 5 times. Although it has the same duration as the dam-techs, it's missing its first 3 hits. Perhaps this is for balance reasons, as I can imagine it being a little too powerful. So just multiply those casts by 5.

Translation of the stats above...

• Casts per minute Casting time
  
  
  54................... 1.11 sec/cast
  50................... 1.20 sec/cast
  48................... 1.25 sec/cast
  46................... 1.30 sec/cast
  42................... 1.42 sec/cast
  
  40................... 1.50 sec/cast
  38................... 1.56 sec/cast
  37................... 1.62 sec/cast
  36................... 1.66 sec/cast
  35................... 1.71 sec/cast
  
  34................... 1.76 sec/cast
  33................... 1.81 sec/cast
  32................... 1.875 sec/cast
  31................... 1.93 sec/cast
  30................... 2.00 sec/cast
  
  29................... 2.06 sec/cast
  28................... 2.14 sec/cast
  27................... 2.22 sec/cast
  26................... 2.30 sec/cast
  24................... 2.50 sec/cast
  
  22................... 2.72 sec/cast
  20................... 3.00 sec/cast
  18................... 3.33 sec/cast
  15................... 4.00 sec/cast

To get your dps down, take whatever damage you're currently dealing, match up with what you're using from the chart above, and divide that by the number you see in the "sec/cast" column.

Example:

Shooting lv16 Foie with a wand and a me/quick, doing 500 damage.

You go to the lv11+ tech section, you'll see that you're able to spam foie 40 times a minute. Then go to the next chart, and you'll see that 40 casts a minute means that you're casting once every 1.5 seconds.

Divide your damage by 1.5. 500 divided by 1.5 = 333 damage per second (dps).

If you're hitting multiple enemies, be sure to total the numbers up first.

************************************************** *********

Section 3:

So now that we understand exactly how our own techs work, how do we fare when it comes to comparing with other classes?

Crossbows, mechguns and shotguns all shoot 240 times a minute.
Twin guns, 160
Rifle, 100
Laser, 60
Grenade, 60

So what does that mean?

If you see a fortegunner with a crossbow, mech or shottie, doing 350 a hit... that translates into 350 x 240 / 60 = 1400dps. This is absolutely not the highest potential a fortegunner can reach, (yak zagenga can reach 550 a hit, which is 2200dps!!)


So how are we doing?

My rabarta can reach 1000 per hit, with my har/quick. 36 times a minute. If I hit 3 targets all the time, that translates into 1800dps. Barely above most of the fG guns. Thing is though... those guns are able to focus all of their bullets into one target, whereas a ra-tech can only hit a single target once. So when there's only one monster left, you've got no choice to use a basic tech, where the dps is quite low, while guns can easily stack their damage into that same one target without having to change anything.

Gi-techs and dam-techs is pretty much our only hope. Even so, that gi-tech needs to be maxed, with a har/quick (which not everybody has) to maximize damage. If you're hitting 4 targets or more consistently, then yes your damage is unmatched. But the question is, how often does this opportunity come to you? That's up to you to make it happen as often as you can.

Fortefighters are a whole different deal. When squared with monsters that are cake, or just have no resistance or any annoying-dodgy AI, like badiras and such, their damage (when maxed, of course), can equal even a full force dam-tech. But... that's always not going to happen. A damn good fortefighter obviously will refrain from doing most of the third part of a PA combo during a party as to not blow the monsters away and ruin it for everybody else. Even then, their damage is maybe a consistent 2000dps (if they're good, of course). But this isn't a melee guide, I won't be getting further into this.


************************************************** *********

Section 4: Comparison

So now that we have all the calculations out of the way... lets do some elitist comparison shall we? This section isn't for everybody, just for those that care.
I wanna start off with the biggest gap a 80/10 newman fT can have.

Rabarta

80/10 newman fT (1287 tp)
Sta / Force (No Quick, +50tp)
Level 21 Rabarta 142% damage, ~31% elemental damage
Howrod +10 (704 tp), 0% non-elemental (probably put resta on the rod)
2041 TP
Retier

2041 TP x 142% + 34% + 20% / 5 = 911 damage
So you're doing ~911 damage x 3. 24 times a minute.
911 x 24 x 3 = 65606 damage a minute / 60 seconds = 1093 damage per second


80/10 newman fT (1287 tp)
Har / Quick (-100tp)
Level 30 Rabarta 160% damage, 40% elemental damage
Majimra +10 (612 tp), 4% elemental
1799 TP
Retier

1799 TP x 160% + 40% + 20% + 4% / 5 = 1005 damage
~1005 damage x 3, 36 times a minute.
1005 x 36 x 3 = 108629 damage a minute / 60 seconds = 1810 damage per second


Quite a big difference eh? 65% more damage Better start using the right weapons, element and maxed techs! Oh I didn't factor in armor TP either.

Okay more controversially...what about just wand vs. rod but with the same tech levels?

80/10 newman fT (1287 tp)
Har / Quick (-100tp)
Level 30 Rabarta 160% damage, 40% elemental damage
Howrod +10 (704 tp), 12% elemental
1891 TP
Retier

1891 TP x 160% + 40% + 20% + 12% / 5 = 1138 damage
1179 damage x 3, 29 times a minute

1179 x 29 x 3 = 99057 damage a minute / 60 seconds = 1650 damage per second

I didn't factor in monster MST.

So wand does about 10% more overtime with ra- techs. Factor in the ease of the decreased cast time, it would probably be better. =) However, Sori / TECH Charge + Wand rules the ra-techs in pure damage, however, the Har / Quick makes landing the ra-techs very easy. The gap widens with single target techs.

So does wand > rod?
No... not always

Techs that don't rely as much on cast time (such as dambarta, which you spam a lot less, since it lasts very long) rods will win at.
Dam- techs
Nos- techs
Megiverse
You can do the calculations yourself.



************************************************** *********

Section 5: The future

Fortechers get level 40 techs in AoI. Many say this is isn't much and think it's the end of the fortechers because acrotechers replace them. I would say not.

Level 40 Techs, I'm going to conjecture that the elemental damage on level 40 techs is 50% (40% at lv30). Simply that, is a very significant amount. Foie and diga gain 3% per level instead of 2%, starting at lv31 and on. Lets see the difference!

This is at level 80/10 (yes, in AoI, the cap will be raised and there will be better items as well)
Diga (wand, then rod)
1287 + 280 + 612 = 2179 TP
Level 30 Diga = 280% = 6101 / 5 = 1220 damage
1220 + 40% (lv30 elemental) + 4% (wand) + 25% (lv31 retier) = 2220 damage
Acrotechers will do slightly less than this with their diga.

Level 40 Diga = 310% = 6754 / 5 = 1350 damage
1350 + 50% (lv40 elemental) + 4% (wand) + 25% (lv31 retier) = 2634 damage

18% more damage

Level 40 Diga with rod = 2956 damage... mmm... quite a high number =)



Dambarta (with a rod)
1287 + 280 + 704 = 2271 TP
Level 30 Dambarta = 130% + 40% + 12% + 25% = 5786 / 5 = 1157 damage
Level 40 Dambarta = 140% + 50% + 12% + 25% = 6676 / 5 = 1335 damage


15% more damage (acrotechers can't use rods at all, they're stuck with wands so this part is moot)

Don't forget, acrotechers don't have as much TP than fortechers in the first place,that means that the gap is wider, although the 30% retier narrows it a little, I'd have an aT whore with me all the time. Wait, scratch that, I'd rather just have a second fT rather than an aT, even in a party of 6.

So there are tons of factors here that can still effect your damage, increase or reduce, such as which units you use and what level retier, increased casting times of lv31+ techs, and otherwise. But okay, all of our level 3 status effects are increased to level 4. All of our techs are just... literally, increased in size... everything is gigantic. Hope that helps when it comes to AoI.

In essence, pretty much the only point of choosing a newman acrotecher (over say, a beast acrotecher) is if you wanted that extra 5% in support techs, yet failing in offensive techs. You could've chosen to just be a fortecher, because your melee is shit anyway. Or you could've chosen to be a beast acrotecher, where your melee is pretty much as strong as a beast wartecher after all buffs, ranged is both superior to fortecher and wartecher, and still support your party just as well as a newman acroteccher can.



Ask questions here (hate comments especially), and have fun!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-14 15:34 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-15 21:02 ]</font>

[Arika]

Welcome back

EDIT :so this topic suggest beast aT > newman aT

either way, my main is fT, nvm to me
(AT just for fun)




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Arika on 2007-06-14 02:31 ]</font>

[Dj_SkyEpic]

I got to say that you've done a pretty good job calculating all of these. O..o

Keep updating >3 Maybe this spot will give me a chance to place some more inputs too =D

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dj_SkyEpic on 2007-06-14 02:34 ]</font>

[Sophia]

yay elitist guide! nice work cherry :3

[Sasamichan]

Hi Sophia ♥

[Eleina]

Wow alot of maths was done there...and seems to prove that the har quick / sori tech charge can be useful.. *sigh...returns to hunting them *

"Barely above most of the fG guns." + "Even so, that gi-tech needs to be maxed, with a har/quick (which not everybody has) to maximize " = I think I'll continue leveling my fG ;D

Still Nice guide ;D

[Ash1ey]

Alot of math indeed

[Siertes]

Man, how long has this thing been in the works? I've got to admire your dedication to this stuff.

Good job, I guess.

[ne1first]

Nice work cherry. Can't wait to read all the haters

[imfanboy]

Haters?

Nah.

...But I am wondering what his point is.

For the people who like to know what the numbers are, this can be useful - I've been wondering about exact times on casting speeds for a while now, especially with har/quick contrasted with me/quick. As usual, his figures add up.

Hey, Cherry, to get the rod casting times from 11-20 (an omission I noticed), why didn't you bump your class to Force for a little while? Since Force is capped at 20 it would be the perfect way to trial those Technics. I assume you went to guntecher and wartecher to get the wand stats... but did you forget about Force?


However, PSU is different from so many MMORPG games in that the numbers... well, fail to matter in any significant fashion. It's not a matter of life or death, or even major inconvenience, when comparing low to high DPS. Which is good, because a MAJOR problem with many other MMORPGs is that DPS matters so much that if you play a non-DPS class you get spat upon.

Laying aside specialty quests like we've been doing and enjoying the last few weeks, the difference between medium dps and high dps is only a few seconds per mob - you spend more time walking from mob spawn point to mob spawn point than DEALING with said spawns in a group of 4-6, unless a large mob pops up. In that case, any given class's DPS can be hosed depending on the spawn's immunities, such as a Jarba's to Technics, or a Polhavora's to Bullet Arts and melee. In those cases, you would rely on DoT effects to keep up your DPS, but those are not always reliable.

In smaller groups, DPS becomes more important, but even then the numbers still don't make a HUGE difference. In an evening's worth of runs with my newearl GT and a beastfemme FT (hah, talk about not class optimized!) as a pair in Mad Beasts S2 we were still doing runs in about 28-35 minutes or so. Yeah, a higher DPS pair might have been doing them in 20-30 minutes, but is that extra 5-10 minutes really worth all the squawking you do on forums about DPS and class optimization over everything?

(Even then, I wasn't using Yak Zagenga at low HP for ultimate DPS; when I found out that Yak Biga can burn Polhavoras and Jarbas I swapped to that for cheapness's sake in inflicting DoTs. I'm not some kind of magical Burn G tree; I don't have traps falling out of my arse!)

"Ah," but you say, "That extra 10 minutes adds up an extra run every hour - in the time you do 3 runs, I can be doing 4!" Which means... oh dear, I may have to spend more time playing the game in order to find what I want. Such a terrible fate! Imagine, having to spend more time with my friends, chatting and enjoying myself!

Quality over quantity, that's my motto. I like to kick back and enjoy my time, without stressing constantly - C-mode was a good example of fun stress, but I can't imagine how PSO would have been enjoyable had it ONLY been C-mode! Firebreak missions are fun, but I can't imagine how fun PSU would be with ONLY Firebreak-style timed missions!

Now, for those of you who do find that your quality IS in quantity, and that you rate DPS over everything else, that's fine. We all enjoy games in a different way; or at least I should hope we do.

What chafes my caboose is your attitude that your view is the only right one, the only POSSIBLE right one. The reason I'd want to kick you in the teeth (and hopefully cause you some expensive oral surgery) is because of that attitude. I can't stand people who think their opinion is the only right one and tries to force it on others - in religions, in politics, or even in something as trivial as a game. I believe it's indicative of something sick in a personality to behave that way.

Besides, let's face it, in 5 years this game won't matter. Possibly because Phantasy Star Galaxy will be coming out on the SuperWii, but more likely because most of us will have moved on to more important things. Is it really worth the fussin' an' th'feudin' yah do on 'ere?

Or is it the fussin' and the feudin' that you enjoy? n which case, I'll be sure to give you lots more of it, because I like to argue over pointless crap too.


EDIT: In case anyone's wondering, I do like the guide. It's necessary... or most of it is, at least. n_n

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-06-14 03:00 ]</font>