[Legendria]

Originally Posted by Indica

Wow this your only 1 post and all you have to say? I can relate to your post though with this Disgraceful country and what corporations have done to it. How about we all move back to Europe and give the land back to the Native Indians ?

Hate USA?

Go to any other country and compare your freedoms there to here.

We wont miss you.

[Indica]

Actually Amsterdam has more freedom and less political BS.

Didn't John Adams travel to Amsterdam to ask for money?

[F-Gattaca]

Originally Posted by Indica

Wow this your only 1 post and all you have to say? I can relate to your post though with this Disgraceful country and what corporations have done to it. How about we all move back to Europe and give the land back to the Native Indians ?

Considering many of those "native indians" who agree with that idea are actually part European (they call this mestizo) that's not exactly a logically sound proposition.

Taken together with the fact that (to date) I've not heard anyone make the same kinds of demands on the European descendants living in, say ... Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay or any other country in the Americas with a significant population of Europeans ... demands like yours, Indica, only reveal the depths of bigotry of those who demand it.

Other than that, cookies go to Legendria for his response to you. And by the way--don't be so quick to think that the Netherlands (or "Amsterdam" as you call it) has less "political BS." It happens everywhere and can hit quite hard. Canada's experienced that of late with a money laundering scandal comparable to that of Watergate.

[Indica]

Originally Posted by F-Gattaca

Considering many of those "native indians" who agree with that idea are actually part European (they call this mestizo) that's not exactly a logically sound proposition.

Taken together with the fact that (to date) I've not heard anyone make the same kinds of demands on the European descendants living in, say ... Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay or any other country in the Americas with a significant population of Europeans ... demands like yours, Indica, only reveal the depths of bigotry of those who demand it.

Other than that, cookies go to Legendria for his response to you. And by the way--don't be so quick to think that the Netherlands (or "Amsterdam" as you call it) has less "political BS." It happens everywhere and can hit quite hard. Canada's experienced that of late with a money laundering scandal comparable to that of Watergate.

I have never read so much jibber jabber nonsense like this before. Demands? What Demands have I made?

Our "native indians" up here in North America went though so much blood shed and forced to move into a corner before finally agreeing in a treaty.

Our "native indians" are still happy with our government and condition of our society? Are you out of your fucking mind? These poor people not only walked by foot to protest in Washington DC once, but currently are walking almost 3,000 miles to do it again - http://www.longestwalk.org/

I like how people like to put words in my mouth and just guess. Kinda like how the Holy Bible has been fabricated into bullshit over the years.

[F-Gattaca]

Originally Posted by Indica

I have never read so much jibber jabber nonsense like this before. Demands? What Demands have I made?

Our "native indians" up here in North America went though so much blood shed and forced to move into a corner before finally agreeing in a treaty.

Our "native indians" are still happy with our government and condition of our society? Are you out of your fucking mind? These poor people not only walked by foot to protest in Washington DC once, but currently are walking almost 3,000 miles to do it again - http://www.longestwalk.org/

I like how people like to put words in my mouth and just guess. Kinda like how the Holy Bible has been fabricated into bullshit over the years.

I could say the same of your post, that you're putting words in MY mouth and that yours is nonsensical jibber jabber. (I especially like your claim that the Holy Bible has been fabricated into bullshit over the years--it demonstrates that you know very little, if anything, about the field of biblical scholarship.)

I thought it was pretty clear that I recognized there are people who think Americans are evil and the non-natives should be deported back to Europe. I do get the impression that you seem to be one of them with your ranting about how "despicable" the country is and your saying we should move back to Europe.

Like I said, most of these people who want to deport non-native Americans back to Europee are actually of mixed blood, so their demands are tantamount to bigotry AND hypocrisy.

Again, as of this date, I've not heard the same bigoted "go back to Europe" BS from native peoples from South America--where quite a few of its countries have descendants of Europeans, not to mention those of mixed blood.

It's funny how you try to warp what I said by bringing up the oppression native peoples have had to enture, in an attempt to make it look like I'm trying to say that native indians are happy. The funny thing about it is that I never said anything of the sort. (I can't be "out of my fucking mind" if I never said it, now can I?)

I'm well aware that the native people of the Americas (that means both North and South) have largely suffered at the hands of the nations built here. Here's the thing--that doesn't grant a license for bigotry. "You oppressed us in generations past, now we get to oppress you" is not just.

In fact, while we're on that subject, there is such a thing as a native who is a patriotic American. I'm sure that blows your mind, but it's actually not all that rare. That's because patriotism (American patriotism, at least) is about living up to the ideas the U.S. was founded upon, and working to make those ideas a reality. For the people who recognize that, there is no contradiction--because being both a native and a patriotic American means working towards rectifying those gross and bloody deviations in our history.

Whether they are patriotic Americans or patriots of the tribal nations they belong to, the organizers of The Longest Walk do not have the same views as you do, Indica. Nor have they supported the expunging of non-native Americans.

The Longest Walk is trying to bring attention to issues and problems that native indians in the U.S. are facing--and the most important point here, their stated mission harbors no intolerance against non-native peoples--"As we walk the final miles, by our side will be elders, families, children, people of all races, from many walks of life, the old and the new America. "

This is a far cry from your rants and the people who share your views--that Americans are evil and the non-natives should be deported back to Europe. The Longest Walk is a far cry from groups like MEChA and other Chicano movements. The people of the Longest Walk want to unite; people with your views want to divide.

[Indica]

I was just posting a sarcastic comment when I started but you are totally opening different Pandora boxes and theories that are going way off topic.

I am not making any claims about the Bible, it's a fact it's a bunch of BS and I don't need any scholarship to support my facts. Ive read the Bible and was forced to go to Sunday School for 15 years. At the age of 8 I knew the Bible was fake. There is no archaeological evidence to prove that Moses ever existed, nor any evidence of thousands of people traveling from Egypt back to this so called Promised Land. Oh, by the way, did Adam and Eve have Belly Buttons?

The only thing I want to divide is people from these nonsense religions as your stating in your last sentence. Don't give me any BS that the Catholic Church and these other big groups are not doing the same causing society to divide based on some fucking rag scrolls created by man.

I don't hate this country that I live in, but I hate the people who run it and these Evil Empire Corporations who are controlling how we live more each and every day. Your are just too blind and ignorant. Keep enjoying your American Idol, Mtv and all these prime time channels with their phoney commercials promoting a false illusion.

[F-Gattaca]

Funny that I didn't even know you replied to this.

Originally Posted by Indica

I was just posting a sarcastic comment when I started but you are totally opening different Pandora boxes and theories that are going way off topic.

Even though this further derails the thread, you've said some things I am not going to leave alone. It looks like the original topic is done for anyway.

Originally Posted by Indica

I am not making any claims about the Bible, it's a fact it's a bunch of BS and I don't need any scholarship to support my facts. Ive read the Bible and was forced to go to Sunday School for 15 years. At the age of 8 I knew the Bible was fake. There is no archaeological evidence to prove that Moses ever existed, nor any evidence of thousands of people traveling from Egypt back to this so called Promised Land. Oh, by the way, did Adam and Eve have Belly Buttons?

Whether or not you are religious is of no concern of mine and by itself does not factor in to how I regard you as a person, but I can NOT abide your hatred, your behavior, and your rationale for both. You claim you know the truth, but all your beliefs are based on your experiences when you were eight years old!

Meanwhile, well-educated people make careers out of studying the Bible and investegating on the historical links within it. Countless papers and books have been written on the subject. That people are still doing this, especially since archaeology continues to turn up curiosities and possible leads, makes your claim that "a fact it's a bunch of BS and I don't need any scholarship to support my facts" look very naive in comparison.

Furthermore, much of biblical scholarship has to do with investegating the meaning behind passages and determining what those passages were meant to be intepreted as. Likely, when you were a child at Bible school, you were made to interpret all those passages literally without any serious discussion on them. That would explain why you're making such random and irrational challenges like "did Adam and Eve have Belly Buttons?!!!"

However, if you were to actually have a serious conversation with any theologan or even a religious scientist (such as America's leading geneticist Francis Collins--who led the Human Genome Project to completion--or the Irish former molecular biophysicist Alister McGrath) you'd probably have your world rocked to find that many don't think the Bible was meant to be taken word-for-word literally. Of course, considering how you cling to your childhood beliefs and regard the Bible as "fucking rag scrolls," I doubt you'd ever consider the possibility--or would instead just shout random obscinities at them.

Take Bernard Ramm, a Baptist theologan, who specifically poke out about that kind of thing fifty years ago: "Revelation is the communication of divine truth; interpretation is the effort to understand it. One cannot say 'I believe just exactly what Genesis 1 says and I don't need any theory of reconciliation with science.'" He also said, "These are extremely serious matters and there is no legitimate place for small minds, petty souls, and studied ignorance."

Originally Posted by Indica

The only thing I want to divide is people from these nonsense religions as your stating in your last sentence. Don't give me any BS that the Catholic Church and these other big groups are not doing the same causing society to divide based on some fucking rag scrolls created by man.

It's not BS except to those people who revel in their misconceptions, ignorance, stereotypes, and hatreds--something you've been quite adept at displaying in this thread. If you think you can save the world by purging religion, you're no better of a person than Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Enver Hoxa--all who sought to do the same thing and would up hurting, oppressing, torturing, and killing millions of people just to force their anti-religious doctrines down the throats of their citizens (among other things).

You tried to use the Catholic Church as an example, which shows you clearly don't know about things such as their 1965 "Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions" or "Nostra Aetate." Why is it important? Because it was the Catholic Church's resolve to promote religious tolerance, acceptance of the world's religions, and to fight antisemitism. No doubt you would refuse to read it and retch at the sight of it given how much you appear to hate Christianity, but I think it demonstrates something when--freaking 40 years plus ago--the Church that you claim is causing "society to divide based on some fucking rag scrolls" declared that "it is contrary to the teaching of the Church to discriminate against, show hatred towards or harass any person or people on the basis of colour, race, religion, and way of life."

Pope John Paul II took that even farther--eight years ago he sought forgiveness on behalf of the Catholic Church for what wrongs have been done in its name throughout history. You'll want to look up articles on that.

And then there's statements by such Catholic clergy as Cardinal Paul Poupard.

"The faithful have the obligation to listen to that which secular modern science has to offer."

"We also know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason, and becomes prey to fundamentalism."

"The permanent lesson that the Galileo case represents pushes us to keep alive the dialogue between the various disciplines, and in particular between theology and the natural sciences, if we want to prevent similar episodes from repeating themselves in the future."

Gee, these don't sound like the kind of things that a church that supposedly divides society based on what you consider "fucking rag scrolls" would do.

Suffice to say, that you claim otherwise in the face of such evidence as this reflects quite poorly on your knowledge. I guess it's understandable as these kinds of things don't make headlines like zealous extremists killing people do. The fact that there has actually been major drives to promote religious tolerance and interfaith dialogue doesn't change that those kinds of things happen, but a certain professor Steven Dutch had something to say about that.

"If religions preach peace, and we don't have peace, then obviously most people are not living up to the demands of their religions. Right?

But we can't go there. That would imply there's something wrong with human nature, when it's so much easier to put the blame on an externality like religion, circumcision, or Saturday morning cartoons."

Demonstrating these things to you are fruitless since you're so caught up in your own childhood beliefs to actually do some research and think about things seriously as an adult, but I find worth in replying to you if only to demonstrate how little you know (and care to know) to others.

I think, however, you've done much more to make yourself look bigoted, ignorant, and hateful than anything I could have written in response to you.

[zandra117]

I would like to point out that over the years the content of the bible has slowly changed. During the middle ages the bible was censored, existing scripture that the catholic church thought was too controversial or contradicted with the views of the pope was cut out of the bible. These lost scriptures are being rediscovered by modern archeologists but they are still not being added back into current editions of the book. The book of Jubilees was partially added into the New International Version merged within Genesis. However the book of Jubilees is most likely an ancient form of fanfiction, it contradicts an older scripture called the Book of Enoch which is more violent and goes into great detail about heaven, hell, and angels, and how the human race grew from just a few people to a whole population. Enoch wasnt deemed family friendly by the church so Jubilees was added instead. And only partially added as Jubilees has incest and adultery and they cut that out.

[Abashi76]

Originally Posted by Indica

Actually Amsterdam has more freedom and less political BS.

Didn't John Adams travel to Amsterdam to ask for money?

Yes, good point.