[Aurra]

O_o Never should have brought it up

Also,

On 2003-11-03 16:16, monkeyfist wrote:
have u ever tried slicing recoboxes with a sword? it's cake. works like a charm. and get a team. or play offline

>Aurra

What?

[monkeyfist]

i'm very sorry. i meant muff.

have u ever tried slicing recoboxes with a sword? it's cake. works like a charm. and get a team. or play offline

>Muff

^what it should be

[cjbelfor]

On 2003-11-03 15:49, Aurra wrote:


Yeah thanks

Anyway, I still maintain that the stolen stereo analogy is not a good one. Stealing a stereo and duping a weapon are two very dissimilar processes.

You're welcome.

But you also are confusing a metaphysical point with an epistemological one. As a simple matter of fact, the legit item was found and the duped item was not. That is a difference in genesis. The inability to PROVE, whatever that would mean in this context, any particular item's genesis has nothing to do with the fact of its genesis. So a person reasonably could maintain that only items that were found are legit. The determining factor in this goofy debate becomes genesis. In such a case the question of whether a person's items are legit or not becomes an issue of credibility and sense. An epistemological problem remains, but the truth of that matter is nonetheless set.

I want my $2.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: cjbelfor on 2003-11-03 21:46 ]</font>

[Aurra]

On 2003-11-03 21:45, cjbelfor wrote:
You're welcome.

But you also are confusing a metaphysical point with an epistemological one. As a simple matter of fact, the legit item was found and the duped item was not. That is a difference in genesis. The inability to PROVE, whatever that would mean in this context, any particular item's genesis has nothing to do with the fact of its genesis. So a person reasonably could maintain that only items that were found are legit. The determining factor in this goofy debate becomes genesis. In such a case the question of whether a person's items are legit or not becomes an issue of credibility and sense. An epistemological problem remains, but the truth of that matter is nonetheless set.

I want my $2.

I'll give you a $1.50

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but while it's true that legit items and duped ones do differ in origin/genesis, you cannot prove any differences in any test of actual gameplay. Gameplay is the only area in which anyone could gain an unfair advantage from his/her items, so an item's origins are basically void when trying to determine whether or not using it is an act of cheating. Right?

I would say that actually duping or hacking an item is cheating, but simply using it, should it be an item that would be attainable through a normal process in the game, is not. If two people are running through the forest, one with a legit BKB and one with a dupe of it, how can you say one of them is cheating and one is not when they are doing exactly the same thing?

There is also the programming aspect of this argument, and that is that whenever an item is dropped or put into the bank, it is deleted and recreated. The same items do not remain consistent throughout your time on PSO, only the illusion of them. Sure the item you end up with after dropping and picking one up is exactly like the one you had before, but it is technically not the same one. All items undergo this process, duped and legit alike. Both disappear and reappear constantly, so if you really wanted to, you could argue that no item is technically "found" since all of them have been picked up at one point and thus, destroyed and recreated.

Okay, bed time.

[Superguppie]

On 2003-11-03 11:15, Aurra wrote:

I disagree. I think that your stereo argument does not hold up. Not only is it arguing from analogy (a logical fallacy), but stealing and creating are two very different things. You will never be able to prove that something is legit, no matter how hard you try. Dupes are not stolen or otherwise unethically acquired, they're simply cloned from existing items.

I wasn't saying duping is stealing. What I was saying is that 'can not prove' doesn't mean it's not wrong.
And the whole dupe/legit discussion revolves around the question whether duping is ethical/unethical...
Needless to say, I think dupes ARE unethically aquired.

Perhaps the act of duping creates a disadvantage for people who want nothing to do with it, but I have not yet seen a reason for me to believe that simply using those dupes is wrong or in any way cheating.

I have. When I got online, I had some really nice stuff that I couldn't use myself. I had saved it knowing i would get online someday and be able to trade it.
And when I did get online, it turned out it was almost impossible to trade it, simply because almost anybody turned it down, saying they had better. (dupes) They called me n00b, which ofcourse I was, and I ended up losing some self-esteem.
I now trade legit only, and although the other ppl who do so are hard to find, it is very rewarding to get something for something that was acctualy not that easy to get.

Ofcourse, this has to do with the gameplay experience one chooses, and I respect ppl who choose otherwise as far as possible. But claiming duping is not cheating, well I don't see an argument for that.
And btw i think if I did cheat, I wouldn't have a problem saying so frankly. If cheating is your gamestyle, no problem, just don't try to 'legitimize' the 'unlegit'.

[Superguppie]

On 2003-11-03 13:47, muff wrote:
All this carry one weapon is BS. What about in seabed when you NEED a gun for the recoboxes.

Indeed. My favorite is Frozen Shooter. But in some situations, especialy when in a team with some HUs at ULT, a Snow Queen helps the team mates better in some situations.
I recently got a legit SQ (HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY) and now carry around both, except when going to the lobby. My team-play and team-fun have improved significantly.

I honestly think all legit players should backup their items. Put it on another memory card, it does no harm. I personally do this. Duping is a glitch, FSOD is a glitch, use one against the other.

Everybodys happy.

It's like fighting fire with fire. Except with a real fire you can actualy get burned by your own fire.
Main argument against this is that ppl will be tempted to use duping for other purposes than backup. (As sadly happens all the time) So, the question is whether the medicine isn't worse than the disease. And I haven't made up my mind about the answer to that...

[scmfxt]

Guys, let's just play the game. Why should anyone care about others cheating or not? Didn't you buy the game to play and have fun. If you have problem playing with others then locked your game. I used to be legit until FSOD robbed me of my weapons. Now I have backup itmes on another memory card. For you legit, you should reconsider doing this. I'm done with this game. It's old and boring doing the same thing over and over just for items and level up. Time to move on...

[Superguppie]

On 2003-11-03 21:45, cjbelfor wrote:
The inability to PROVE, whatever that would mean in this context, any particular item's genesis has nothing to do with the fact of its genesis.

yeah, that's a nice formulation of what I was trying to say.

And yeah, it is a philosophical problem rather than a physical one....

[Mystil]

On 2003-11-02 21:25, Aurra wrote:
I for one, don't even consider using dupes to be cheating. Can you prove that an item is duped? Can you prove that an item is legit? No and no. You never will be able to. If you can't even scientifically prove the difference between the two, how can using one give you an unfair advantage? (Which is basically the definition of cheating.)

Easy way to prove.

Lets use the MKB as an example. The MKB that was massed duped had a Abeast percentage of 20. You can pretty much guess if one is duped if has this percentage and you TRADED for it. If it's 0/0/0/0. Then you can either accuse or believe.

My BKB is half and half. I had a dupe MKB, and used a legit Blue-black stone on it. THough because the 20% carried over, anyone asking what my percents are would say it's a dupe.

Haha, %s are ALWAYS tell on your weapon.

[jt]

On 2003-11-04 02:43, scmfxt wrote:
Guys, let's just play the game. Why should anyone care about others cheating or not? Didn't you buy the game to play and have fun. If you have problem playing with others then locked your game. I used to be legit until FSOD robbed me of my weapons. Now I have backup itmes on another memory card. For you legit, you should reconsider doing this. I'm done with this game. It's old and boring doing the same thing over and over just for items and level up. Time to move on...

yeah time for you to move on but here we go with the play in locked games again... you cant play in a locked game with friends if you dotn have any yet... in order to find legit friends, you have to play in open games... whos in open games? take a wild guess... and its not this guy -->