[DonRoyale]

With permission from Ryna, I'm trying this again.

Because my old topic involving ranking character classes turned into a huge flame war over the true worth of HUmars.

Therefore, I felt it was time to make a new subject exclusively on HUmars, so that people can vent without having to worry about the topic being locked over going off-topic.

While I was away, some comments about HUmars were made that I had to comment on.

@ Kef: I understand you like RAmarls, but seriously, HUmars can have Berserk weapons, too. (Even though it wouldn't be a good choice, he'd still do insane damage)

Especially when that weapon is, say, Musashi with hit%.

HUmar: 1000-1300-1300-2500-2500
RAmarl: 800-800-1500

Who did you say won now?

Honestly, it's all in the weaponry. But on PW, and boss runs (TTF mostly), RAmarl fails horribly. Sure, you have your Berserk weapon, but you don't want to be fighting Del Lillies, Merics, or bosses at range with a Berserk weapon. You'll get slaughtered very quickly.

Why? Take a HUmar holding a Charge Vulcan with uber hit%.

HUmar: 400-400-400-800-800-800-1500-1500-1500 (8100)
RAmarl: 800-800-1500 (-300 HP)

Then she gets brutally owned by stuff like Deldoggie's charge, Del Lily's screech, Dark Falz's Rabarta (which will lead to many more things), Deldoggie's beam, ect, ect.

Bosses (or mini-bosses) tend to favor sideliners. Hence why rangers are terrible at both bosses and Tower runs.

And before you go retaliating, saying that HUmars suck, sure, they fail at Ill Gill, Sil Dragon's frozen steps, Gi Gue's beams, Deldoggie's slam, Gibbles, but would you rather be instapwned by Megid, Booger Blast (Merics), or Rabarta from either Falz or Sil Dragon? Nuh uh, didn't think so.

And about your E4 equipment comment, what of us who don't play on the PC? What of us who play PSO+? Or for that matter, what of those who play the DC, where the RAmarl doesn't even exist? Who's the best class then, hmm?

And you are correct, Kef, it's all based on opinion.

On 2006-05-23 07:44, Kef wrote:
You're free to dislike RAmarl and love HUmar, but trying to say the best class in the game sucks only makes you appear like an immature fool seeking attention.

And, contradiction...

On 2006-05-22 12:33, Kef wrote:
I've said this hundreds of times, but
HUcast: 1000-1300-MISS
RAmarl: 800-800-1500
We all know who wins.

On 2006-05-22 12:33, Kef wrote:
Heavenly/Arms completely nullifies this argument.

You took the words right out of my mouth

Now, for you people to continue your opinions. You people all seem to think HUmar sucks. He doesn't.

[Skorpius]

HUmars are just as good on a team as RAmarls. They play different roles, though, because one is a Ranger, the other is a Hunter. Anyone who attempts to argue that HUmars are weak, worthless characters have a lot more training and learning to do.

[Shar]

All I can say is, keep it realistic. A HUmar cannot do 1000-1300-1300-2500-2500 with a Musashi, not even with SDJZ30. Maybe with SD82, yes. But then the RAmarl would be more powerful as well. And I think Kef just took a 3 hit combo for an example.

[whiteninja]

On 2006-05-25 16:01, SereneShadows wrote:
but seriously, HUmars can have Berserk weapons, too. (Even though it wouldn't be a good choice, he'd still do insane damage)

Say what?
- 45 hit Diska of Braveman
- 40 hit Beserk Calibur
- 15 hit Mushashi (lost it to corruption >.>)
Works amazingly.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: whiteninja on 2006-05-25 16:17 ]</font>

[Blitzkommando]

Make identical comparisons. Charge Vulcans to Charge Vulcans for example. When doing this RAmarl, obviously, has a better chance of hitting all nine times over the HUmar. But realistically, neither will likely hit all nine times. In personal experience with my RAmarls I tend to do Hard-Special-Special with charge weapons and it tends to hit 7-9 out of the 9 times depending on enemy and hit percent. Of course, I tend to apply that formula to all charge weapons to all classes that I use charge weapons with, as in hunters and rangers. For forces I tend to use Hard-Hard-Special to get similar results.

I'm not arguing one way or another, I just believe neither side has made fair comparisons as it is rather difficult to compare two entirely different classes of characters fairly. Both have extreme advantages over each other, HUmars have HP and ATP whereas RAmarls have the ATA, MST, and EVP in spades. However, simply due to equipment limitations the RAmarl makes a better Hunter than a HUmar making a Ranger. This has nothing to do with which class has 'better stats' and moreso with equipment. I cannot say for sure if this trend continued into PSOBB as I don't play PSOBB and am most familiar with PSOGC but it seems to have continued just from reading the equipment lists and stats from Episode IV.

Really though it's not fair to compare them on an apples to apples scale either because of equipment limitations. Think about it this way, a HUmar has one option for a rifle, the Holy Ray. RAmarl has a huge selection of Rifles. The HUmar has a huge selection of paired swords whereas the RAmarl has... none. Does that mean that a HUmar couldn't make a decent 'ghetto Ranger' or a RAmarl a decent 'ghetto Hunter'? Not at all, players deal with the limitations and take advantage of what they do have offered. Holy Ray is an excellent rifle for non-rangers and is lackluster for rangers because there are simply more options of better weapons open for Rangers in that department but it is the only choice open for hunters.

A RAmarl is not useless in a team and neither is a HUmar. Both give different balances to the equation. Would I play as a HUmar? Absolutely not. Would I mind playing with one? Absolutely not, I played with HUmars all the time and found many of them to be excellent hunters. Simply put, HUmars aren't my style but for others they are.

Finally, arguing the mathematics of attack strength is prone to so many holes and factors it is impossible to compare two classes overall ability with a specific weapon for every area as every area gives different results. Comparing a Musashi with a Berzerk handgun is hardly equal. Both weapons have entirely different stats, accuracies, speeds, push back, 'cooling time', et cetera. A slightly better, although still horrible, comparison would've been between a Berzerk slicer and a Berzerk Sword. But, again, an unfair comparison as they require entirely different abilities to use them effectively. That brings up the final point in that the ability of a class is determined by the player not the class.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Norvekh on 2006-05-25 17:20 ]</font>

[HAYABUSA-FMW-]

On 2006-05-25 16:01, SereneShadows wrote:
Why? Take a HUmar holding a Charge Vulcan with uber hit%.

Bosses (or mini-bosses) tend to favor sideliners. Hence why rangers are terrible at both bosses and Tower runs.

Frozen Shooter is the best thing a fleshie team can have in Towers and against mini bosses.

Hello?

HUmar can run up to an Ill Gill, Gibbles, any of the giant flower bosses and die horribly even after he throws up a lv15 Jellen and tries to combo his Charge mech 50 hit series before getting a one hit KO from the enemy not being immobilized.

HUmar needs another player to help him with this.

Such as a Cast/Caseal with Freeze traps, RAnger with Frozen Shooter, or unlikely for 99% of the PSO population, his own S-Ranks with Blizzard/Arrest/Jellen/Zalure Specials or a Meteor Cudgel/Red Sword/etc..



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HAYABUSA-FMW- on 2006-05-25 17:24 ]</font>

[Delfi]

Serene Shadows i am not going to quote you because your post is like huge, or else i would have done...however I can not comment on Humars - I cant say they suck and I cant say they pwn - I have never played as 1, maybe 1 day i will that is if i dont get sidetracked by PSU upon its release.
However - you said ramarls or rangers? Suk at tower? This i find totally untrue - I have both a ramar and a ramarl - Each of them can clear a tower in 15 - 20 minutes using the same weaponry, alone online and without a single death, Im talkin about east or west here and obviously not PW4.
Id like to see a humar do that i really would, somehow id think he would struggle no matter who was controlling him, of course you can prove me wrong if you like.
But personally speaking id never attempt an ulti tower with a hunter of any kind.
Also taking my Ramarl into a boss arena - I have yet to see anyone who can slaughter dark falz faster than i with my ramarl when i let rip with my 40% hit spirit vulcans, also im usually the only 1 in a team who can survive falz and have to provide the support of a fo also with my ramarl, and keep reviving people.
So no way do Ramarls fail at bosses.
In fact anyone who thinks that Ramarls fail at tower or boss runs must be in need of Extra training and i suggest they report to the hunters guild immediately. lol.
ok thats all i can say in the defence of ramarls they pwn when used correctly with the right weaponry as im sure most other characters do too - Stop dissin my ramarls or i will be forced to qoute southpark...in fact i will quote it anyway, well kinda - "Screw u guys im goin bed " lol
To hayabusa - IMO the best weapon a ranger can have in the tower and against epsilon is either his own srank rifle with demons special or a high hit% demons laser - i have both - im talkin of 3 succesful hits to kill it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delfi on 2006-05-25 17:24 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delfi on 2006-05-25 17:28 ]</font>

[-Crokar-]

rangers are great at about everything. but to hyabusa humars can run solo towers with out help. and again why waste time casting a stupid spell the quicker you attack the quicker it dies. i dont see why humars waste time casing that stuff. my main is a humar and ive done the ultimate towers my self before and its not that hard. but the big plant things can be a little tricky. but they dont have to be immobilized to kill em. but it is better to have them frozen or paralyzed.

[Skorpius]

On 2006-05-25 17:15, Norvekh wrote:
Finally, arguing the mathematics of attack strength is prone to so many holes and factors

http://ev.dhs.org/skorpius/damages.html

Ultimate Online Ruins Arlan. All weapons are S-Ranks with Berserk.

What is shown is HUmar using weaker, but more accurate combo strings and still doing more damage than the RAmarl using the same weapon with stronger, less accurate combo strings. The damage difference, however, is neglegable because it's so minute. HUmar is a Hunter, with less ATA and more ATP, so he uses weak/accurate attacks. RAmarl is a Ranger, ATA over ATP, so she uses stronger/inaccurate. Compensation, balance, trade off.

The comparisons are not to debunk RAmarls, but to debunk the stale sterotype that HUmar is the worst class to chose. It's one thing to give reasons why you'd rather not choose something, that's perfectly fine. Using "facts' that aren't even accurate to justify and defend yourself is silly.

"I don't like HUmar because he is the worst class in the game. Below average at everything! Worthless on a team."

Common thought, yet disproven by showing they are just as equal to RAmarls who are seen as "Gods" by many players. Logically speaking, you can't be equal to a "God" character and be "below average". Of course, HUmars are not superduper strong for soloing, but they aren't horrible at it. I didn't get around to make solo damage comparisons, but I can do a quick one using TWIN:

HUmar: N - H - S
269 - 508 - 899

RAmarl: N - H - S
281 - 531 - 940

There you go, neglegable damage difference, just like before.

These comparions, as I said, only show that they are equal, and aren't meant to say "RAmarl's suck" unless you use backwards logic and think that they so suck because they're equal to HUmars. The point is that HUmars are not "below average" as commonly believed. Most people just recite this without thinking, without researching or learning about characters. ATP/ATA isn't the only issue, though. You have defenses and abilities, etc. All of these attributes, combines, make up what they are and reflect the strengths and weaknesses of their class. Because of this, both characters are perfect examples of how each of their class plays.

I'm sure my post will be broken apart and argued with out of context. >_>; I'm looking foward to that.

[Neith]

On 2006-05-25 16:05, Skorpius wrote:
Anyone who attempts to argue that HUmars are weak, worthless characters have a lot more training and learning to do.

Quoted for truth. In a team, HUmars are very, very good characters, even with a RAmarl/HUnewearl's Shifta/Deband.

What's more annoying than saying RAmarls outdamage anyone is when a RAmarl uses mechguns, and Damage Cancels a Hunter using Demon's attacks. Thanks a lot RA, just make the enemies take twice as long to kill. (well, anyone who damage cancels a Demon's attack). I've learnt through PW#4 that mechs are a waste, as all they do is damage cancel everyone.

I'd much rather have a HUmar with something like a Demo Comet/Meteor Cudgel than a RA (of any kind) spamming mechs, making the whole 'kill enemies fast' idea take twice as long.

Again, credit to good Rangers, and don't take this as a stab at RAmarls, but I still think that with the exception of Demon's, a good Hunter can outdamage a Ranger, and SHOULD be- the Ranger's job is support and crowd control, not damage dealing. Leave that to the Hunters, that's why they have high ATP..

Still don't know why I bother arguing a point, I know it'll just get thrown back at me with facts and figures anyway. Learn to play your class well before you decide to tell other people what sucks.