The Guntecher guide - written by GTs for GTs.

[imfanboy]

Fanboy's Guide to Gunteching



INTRODUCTION

"Sure I believe in peace. Peace through superior firepower."
-Lina Inverse

A joke making the rounds these days is that if ST had developed the Guntecher for AotI, they would have named it "Acrogunner". Like the Acrofighter and Acrotecher classes, the Guntecher weapon spread is oriented towards single-handed weapons, especially its S-ranks; it also seems to be skewed towards a faster, more mobile playstyle than its more sedate brother-class Fortegunner.

It is not, however, a class for stat whores. With the lowest ATP mod on any of the classes that rely on ATP for damage, if you pick Guntecher for raw DPS you're going to be disappointed sorely.

It is easily the equal of Acrotecher when it comes to supporting a party, even with only level 30 support Technics. Possessing easy access to wand/gun combos, a collection of almost every S-rank single-handed gun available, level 40 Bullet Arts, and level 30 support Technics, the Guntecher is the Force class that is top-notch at putting out damage while still keeping your friends covered with heals and buffs.

Remember, too, that the game is very well-balanced. I can, and will, make comparisons between the races but it's relatively speaking. There's a quantifiable difference between the damage output of a beast and a newman guntecher, but the gap isn't huge enough to just say "Newman GT sux! Onry play teh Beast GT!"

Play the race you want, and the class you want, and don't get huffy if you take what I say as an insult because it AIN'T.

It's not like the Fanboy Police are going to knock down your door and kick your ass for playing the game your own way (they're too busy handling all the people who claim to play 'fun' decks in Magic: The Gathering as a thin excuse for getting beaten).


Note that anything BEFORE page 22 is just plain irrelevant. Guntecher is one of the most-changed classes with the advent of AotI, and most of the comments in this thread reflect that ancient, long-dead version.

(btw, this guide also reflects the Technic update that the Guntecher will be receiving soon.)

My other guides, for those whom are interested, are:
Fanboy's Guide to Beginners (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=154629&forum=22&2)
Fanboy's Guide to Wartechers (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=171170&forum=22&4)
Fanboy's (im)Perfect Guide to Forteteching (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=139839&forum=22)

That last is awaiting update, however, so don't really look at it.


RACE
"Just 'cause it's a stereotype don't mean it ain't true."
-Dwarf smith

Race is at the heart of gunteching in a way that few other classes can claim.

Essentially, it boils down to one question: Do you want to be really good at Ranger and so-so at Force, or do you want to be really good at Force and so-so at Ranger?

Human Guntechers are... an even blend. They perform equally well at both halves of the Guntecher equation; the problem is that they aren't far enough ahead of either Newman at Ranger or Beast/CAST at Force to make Human the stand-out choice. Still, though, there's nothing wrong with a Human guntecher.

Newman Guntechers are top-notch at combining attack Technics with their bullets. They lack the raw speed of the Acrotecher and the raw power of the Fortetecher, however, so they don't rely on the entire library of Technics. Instead, they stick to the most powerful and/or the ones with the most useful SEs - but more on that later.

Beast Guntechers are hands-down the best choice statwise for the player who wants to focus on Ranger (as most Guntechers probably should, since you have a lot more guns than Technic weapons). The strength of the Beast compensates for the extremely low ATP mod of the GT, and the low ATA possessed by the Beast is nicely covered for by the GT's boost.

CAST Guntechers are on paper the second-best (with the second-best ATP), but in practice come off as trailing the others. Their immense ATA is mostly wasted with the class's high native modifier, and with their lower TP they don't get quite the oomph the other races get out of Technics.


BULLET ARTS & FIREARMS

"Guns, guns, guns. My life would be so dull without them."
-Wedge

For a guntecher, it comes down to a choice between inflicting a status effect or dealing element damage. A good example of this is the Tengouhg - do you whip out a burning bow and try to DoT them (knowing that it's going against their element and will do less damage), or blast ice cards at them til they go under? Or if you're facing spellcasting enemies like Ohgohmon, do you confuse them with a Light weapon or bust out with a Fire bullet?

Which one you choose to do should depend on the composition of your team, how many members it has, and the level you're playing at. If you're the only guy in a 2-3 person S/S2 party with an SE4 bow/rifle or crossbow, you should try sticking that to the biggest creatures, particularly the ones that hunters have trouble dealing with like Tengouhgs, Jarbas, or the Jusnagun. Big monsters really hate damage over time (DOT) because 25 or 40% of their HP adds up to a lot of time hunters spend beating on them. Also if enemies are bullet and Technic-resistant, DOT is by far your best choice.

On the other hand, if others are already covering the DoT or it isn't necessary (like in, well, almost any mission where you're running with more than 3 people), feel free to blast away with whatever elements you have on hand.

My earnest recommendation is that you should pick a one-handed gun (crossbow, card, or mechgun) and have every element bullet for that one. Which one you pick could depend on your race; CASTs and Beasts get heavy mileage out of mechguns, while Humans and Newmans can cover their lower ATP with the higher % crossbow and card bullets.

However, if you want to pick several guns to have all the elements for, be my guest! In fact, the most fun can be had in mixing/matching - a couple of bullets for mechgun, a couple for crossbow, a couple for card.

TWO HANDED GUNS

Two-handed guns are a problematic thing for the guntecher. On the one hand, they're all useful, deal out good damage, have PAs that you need, etcetera; on the other, they remove your ability to tote a wand.

But you can't fear that. After all, not EVERYTHING can be solved with the one-handed guns.


Bow/Rifle

These weapons have benefits that are manifold. Aimable, with the longest range of any bullet in the game, and capable of dealing out level 4 Status Effects, they are a pretty good part of the Guntecher's arsenal. The choice is simple: Bow or rifle?

Bows ignore armor, raise up in PA levels at least 3x faster, do better elemental % damage, and have higher ATP and ATA. Not to mention the fact that we get S-rank in them... mmm, Rikauteri...

Rifles have better PP, better range, fire faster, and are quicker on the initial shot which improves strafing ability - and at level 31+, they have KNOCKDOWN. The advantage that gives is immense, to say the least.

In the end it's a personal choice. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but from a pure damage standpoint (especially on bosses, which tend to be heavily armored) the bow is better; from a support stance (provided you have the patience) the rifle is infinitely superior.

Most guntechers DO use bows, however; or at least I do. I know I personally look snobbily on my poor fortegunner cousins who can't use bows. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

These days, Guntechers usually bust out rifles and bows for damage against flying bosses, and the convenience of being able to aim anywhere and deal damage is nice. Kinda nice to lurk behind De Ragnus and hit his tail without risking instant death. The only exception is Onma/Dimma, because they're bullet-immune naturally EXCEPT for their wings.

What bullets to get?

It used to be that either Burn or Virus was an ESSENTIAL. SE4 virus/burn means the difference between 3 minutes of whacking a monster with 10k plus HP and 1 minute.

However, in light of the fact that crossbows can inflict SE3 nearly as often, are more mobile, and deal more damage (not to mention that Burn G Traps are cheap and plentiful), getting a rifle/bow for SE doesn't matter as much.

That leaves the main reason for rifles and bows being fighting bosses and/or knocking down enemies, so just pick whatever elements you find handiest on the stages you like doing.

PA Frag Bullets for the Bow are worthless. Don't bother. For the Rifle, on the other hand, Killer Shot is a must for taking on Robot-filled stages, though you could also pick Megid - see the Megid/KS Tactics article for the pros and cons of each. Mayalee Shot is - well, some people swear by Sleep as a decent SE that lasts a lot longer than Freeze or Stun, but I tend to swear AT it. Sleep is disrupted by a single hit, so if you're in a party with a bunch of hunter-types they're likely to disrupt the sleep more quickly than you can lay it out with Mayalee Shot.


Twin Handguns

Twin handguns are a compromise between DPS and speed. The second-fastest firing weapon in the game, one of the aimable guns, and one of the more mobile - plus, it's our signature weapon. Why would you be without a pair?

With 36% elemental damage at 31+ the bullets at higher levels makes you able to really stick it to the enemies while dancing around their clumsy attacks. Plus with 2 bullets hitting an enemy it multiplies the chance of inflicting the SE, which is just icing on the cake.

Though some would say that by the time you get cards and crossbows these are obsolete, I beg to differ - you can aim these in any direction, unlike the crossbow, and do first-person, unlike the card, and have about equal range to the card. Also, they can do more damage than the bow to average-defense targets (NOT high-defense targets), though at an admittedly inferior range.

As far as models of guns to get, I find that a properly-ground Arb Maganac (the 8* Kubaraized Tenora twin handguns) has enough PP to keep firing a while while possessing more ATP than an 11*. But if you like the way the Twin Tornado or Hyper Viper looks, feel free to hunt it in Mother Brain. I'm personally holding out for Battlestoppers and the legendary Guld Milla.

Which bullets to get?

Essentially, twin handguns are for damage; pick the bullets that are right for the areas you go to most often. It would be my recommendation to at least pick up a twin handgun bullet for every element you don't have in rifle or bow.

The PA Frag Bullets for the twin handguns are... mediocre. Twin Penetration (as kinky as it sounds, hehehee http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif) is no match for Laser Cannons, and Mayalee Twin simply isn't necessary at this point.


Shotgun

I do endorse the shotgun - as a BACKUP weapon. Mainline, it's only decent; while it does a lot of damage it leaves you immobile and without wand access.

The one thing a shotgun has, however, is nearly infinite PP; combined with a solid spread, decent damage, reasonable SE, and stylish look it's good to go if you manage to tap out all of your mainline guns or you NEED to hit an enemy with an SE at once. With point-blank range you can give a single enemy an SE almost guaranteed in 2 shots, more likely one.

What bullets?

Confuse can throw any spellcasters for a loop (see the bit on that later), so pointblanking them with 5 shots will almost certainly guarantee a useless spellcaster. Pick bullets for damage if you want to use a shotgun.

A lot of people say the crossbow is better and they're right, but the nice thing about shotguns is that you can grab one at level 1 and start leveling it right away, so by the time you can buy and use crossbows it'll already be well on its way to 21+.

PA Frag Bullets for the shotgun aren't bad, but not wonderful either. Barada Chamga is handy, especially if you're in a Killer Shot/Megid using team and you want to distract the bots away from the Incapacitators. Barada Maga is... well, only OK; it suffers from the same problem that all debuffs have right now.

Laser Cannons

Well, Laser Cannons have been improved muchly since I last reviewed them. They have SE3 at 31+, a HUGE ATP modifier, and a nice elemental % as well.

The best bullets are the ones used for hordes of small, low HP enemies such as Badira, Navals, and similar enemies who rush you head-on. The proper strategy, if you don't have a narrow corridor to funnel them all into, is to stand to one side as they spawn and fire continuously, like so:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/iamfanboy/psu%20PSO%20stuff/psu-line-weapon-strategy.gif

This maximizes the amount of time that the monster spends underneath the beam; the angle means that they'll get under the beam sooner and stay there longer.

Of the PA Frag bullets, Phantasm Prism is of dubious usefulness in my mind for much the same reasons as Mayalee Shot under the Rifle section, but it could possibly be more useful than Mayalee Shot as it affects more than one enemy at a time. Mayalee Prism, however, is highly useful to the Guntecher. It is an adequate replacement for the grenade launcher that we don't get.

It causes knockback on small-medium enemies and staggers larger enemies; it also fires fast enough that you can keep the stagger going on many of the larger enemies. While it does have a fairly large hit on accuracy (46% at first level), GT ATA is generally good enough that you shouldn't worry about it, particularly if you move in from the back or the sides.

It is, however, a highly situational PA. You won't be using it all the time, so if 90 PA Frags seems like a big investment then you don't have to bother.

ONE-HANDED GUNS

One-handed guns are very, VERY important for guntechers; while other Types may only dabble in them to add a bit of range while still keeping a melee weapon in their other hand, we NEED them for quick wand access. Only fitting that we get the best selection of them - S-rank in almost all of them!

My earnest recommendation is that you should pick a one-handed gun (crossbow, card, or mechgun) and have every element bullet for that one. Which one you pick could depend on your race; CASTs and Beasts get heavy mileage out of mechguns because of their higher base ATP, while Humans and Newmans can cover their lower ATP with the higher % crossbow and card bullets.

However, if you want to pick several guns to have all the elements for, be my guest! In fact, the most fun can be had in mixing/matching - a couple of bullets for mechgun, a couple for crossbow, a couple for card.

But ignore handguns in all their permutations. Handguns are for Fortefighters and Protransers, not Guntechers.

Crossbows

Crossbows deal excellent damage at CLOSE range. 3 bullets + 15% elemental damage at 21+ + SE3 = some painfully injured enemies. If you're the restaho or the mainline techer is more interested in the whizbangs and shiny things coming out of the end of his rod than in healing his teammates, then the Crossbow lets you stay mobile and deal damage while still being close enough to bounce over and heal someone who's dipping low.

Another fringe benefit is that the elemental % is the lowest of all the GT weapons. This means that it's great for using against same element enemies, if the SE is necessary.

The danger is that you have to be REALLY close in order to deal good damage with the crossbow - and guntechers aren't exactly paragons of HP or DFP. But your buddies will thank you.

Another depressing thing is that the bow builds up levels slowly, especially compared side-by-side with cards (not as slow as regular bows, however). Also, for levels 11-20, you have a VERY annoying V-shot that makes it quite vexing to use at any distance other than point-blank. It is worth it, however.

What elements?

I've changed my mind: SCREW VIRUS. What's mandatory is BURN. Why?

Well, chilluns, SE3 burn can affect big monsters. SE3 virus can't. The upside to having an SE3 burn crossbow? Well, you can move behind Jarbas and keep pounding them with 3 bullets until they get set on fire. If you're solo, you can shoot Gol Dovas with the crossbow and keep an ice dagger in the other hand to melee them once they're on fire. It's a mobile ability to DoT instead of a stationary one.

I was doing some runs with it two nights ago, and it was just as easy (or hard) to burn the big ones with SE3 as it was to whip out my burn bow and use that, plus I could move out of the way of ranged and melee attacks and still keep shooting, thus increasing my chances of giving them the SE.

I'd strongly suggest confuse as well; there are a number of annoying spellcasters like the Gazoran sorcerer-guy and confuse means that they don't use their spells effectively any more - more on that later.

Yak Zagenga, the first PA Frag Bullet, looks pretty good... on paper. Doing more damage the fewer HP you have? Sounds like a good deal, no, especially for the low-DPS Guntecher? The problem is that the proper Guntecher has to be ready to cast Resta at any time, and Yak Zagenga interferes with that need. Oh, and you lose out on elemental bullets too.

Yak Maga - actually isn't too bad. Not great, mostly because debuffs are useless except in one situation: when enemies buff themselves. Because Yak Maga takes away ATP, and the ones who buff themselves are usually the deadliest enemies on the block (like Carriguines), this isn't necessarily a bad choice. But then, debuffs are mostly useless at the moment, so take this with a grain of salt.

Cards

Cards deal EXCELLENT damage at decent range (to elemental-weak enemies, my beast GT guntecher deals nearly 1200 damage with all 3 bullets in a single shot - and she's still only GT5!), have a good ROF, and home in automatically on your target. While it takes a bit of getting used to, the card is a very, very good weapon for spreading SEs and dealing damage while dodging Gaozoran foie and Vanda diga.

Cards are a bit tricky to get the hang of, but once you do they're very, very nice - homing in on enemies that are highlighted in red. This means you can whip the blades at one enemy and strafe over until his buddy is highlighted, whip blades at him, then rinse and repeat...

What elements?

By my recommendation, all of 'em. It is my favorite of the GT weapons, even if we don't get S-rank in them. But once again, choose for yourself; there are a lot of people who don't like the fact that it deals lower DPS than the mechgun or crossbow, and other people who dislike the SE2.

Ignore the card PA Frag Bullet. Utterly useless.

Mechguns

Well, someone hammered me into trying it, and I did it, and found out that mechguns ARE decent choices now, easily comparable to crossbows.

The thing of it is, though, that mechguns are extremely race-dependent. Because mechs have such low ATP, the higher your base ATP the better the damage you deal. With only level 20 bullets my Figunner was dealing 100 more a bullet than my newearl GT with bullets at 25+.

Because of that, newmans should probably avoid mechguns, while beast and CAST GTs should make a beeline for them right away.

They are also very, very good at drawing aggro. Lots and lots of it. Because each bullet causes a flinch, you can distract charging enemies from the fortetecher or the fortefighter spamming PAs - more on that later.

Elements don't really matter here. The SE is a joke, so if you like mechguns just pick whatever elements do the most damage in the areas you like to play.

If you're going to get them, don't skimp on the gear - the best to have are Beam Vulcanics, the 8* Kubara. Ignore the Tenoras, they're garbage. Beam Vulcanics have 120 more PP than a 9*, synth at the same rate as a 9*, and while they lose out a bit on ATP and ATA, the difference is negligible. The one thing to remember, though, is that you need MULTIPLE mechguns, because they empty out fast. Buying 3-4 NPC 8*s is more worthwhile than just having one or two cool Kubara ones.

Mayalee Fury, the PA Frag Bullet, causes knockup - it sends enemies into the air. However, with its low ATA modifier (1-3%), the only way you're ever going to hit ANYTHING with it is from behind. This PA is most useful for stunlocking large critters like Gol Dova, Kajigabari, and the like while the hunters pound on it.

R-mags, or Gun-mags, or Shadoogs
Whatever you wanna call them, they deserve a mention as a way of dealing out an SE and additional damage while also equipped with a teching wand. It's also possible that you may wish to pair one with your lone melee weapon, if you have one on your palatte, but I'd prefer to have a Fire Crossbow or a Tech-mag in the other hand.

Since we get S-rank in them, though, it's one of the few ways we have of inflicting Stun. Just something to keep your eyes on, if you lay hands on an
Ebrozike.


SKILL PHOTON ARTS
"Hay, with the buff in meleeing in general, maybe I'm good at it too!" *swing* *tink!* "..Maybe not." -Anon. Guntecher

My advice on melee?

Don't.

Well, not often.

As a general policy, avoid meleeing. You don't have particularly high strength, your melee photon arts are only 10 tops, and you only have two choices: single dagger and single saber.

That being said, there are several circumstances where it can be profitable, most noticably on enemies that have 3 or more hit areas close together, and are resistant to bullets - Strateria, Kog Nadd, and the crocodiles come to mind.

Of the two choices, dagger and saber, the dagger wins hands-down at level 10 with Buten Shuren-zan. 4 hits quick, along with a jump first to get you into melee range, combines well, particularly if you're moving in with a crossbow or other single-handed gun. Plus, the A-rank dagger has a good PP pool and does a fair amount of damage. The two saber skills only get better at their 2nd combo, which unfortunately guntechers don't get access to.

Lately I've been using Hikai Shuha-zan, the PA Frag art, but it's really not too different from Buten, just a bit faster.

TECHNICS

Mm, this area is mostly delayed til the update, but here goes some advice at least.

Offensive TECHNICs
Focus on Diga and Foie. If you're a newman, it is easier to use Gi-technics to fight small hordes of enemies such as Navals and Polties, but the other races are still better off using regular gun bullets.

This will change when we get the boost in April, but for now...

If you're going to be teching for damage, I would earnestly recommend pairing up a techmag/wand combination, with the tech-mag hosting Resta/Reverser and the wand with your attack technics.

Support TECHNICs

Get Resta and Reverser. Love them. Enough said. Because you have Crossbows/cards/mechguns, you can deal out DPS/SEs while still being able to spot-heal and keep your party alive (I know, I keep repeating this, but it's seriously the strongest point of the GT). Plus, more often than not, you'll find the other techers in the party getting frozen/hurt badly and you can just strafe on over to him/her and give a quick heal.

Later on, Giresta can replace Resta, but I personally keep Giresta on a secondary wand and Resta on my main wand because Giresta is slower.

Buffs are your second-best friend. Always have a techmag/wand combo with a full set of buffs ready.

Debuffs... not so much. If you're going up against a Carriguine or some other enemy that buffs themselves, they're OK to have ready so the buffed enemies don't raep you, but other than that, for now they're useless.


TACTICAS

"If you did it and lived, then you probably did it right."

This spot is still under construction; I'll add to it if and when I see more things that need to be added.

ARMOR

What a guntecher ideally needs in an armor is a head slot and an arm slot: Head slot for more TP, and arm slot for more ATP. Anything else is just an afterthought.

Now, for what you could settle for since this isn't a perfect world. If you're a beast or CAST (especially CAST!) you should prioritize a head slot for more TP - yohmei armors generally have head slots so you should shop there. For humans and newmans, the arm slot's the thing - GRM is the way to go.

CAST guntechers shouldn't worry much about SUVs until later on. SUV damage is based off your raw ATP; a cast GT won't ever win any rewards with his ATP until level 60+. There are several armors that have both head and extra slots, however.

Check the database here on PSOW to see which armors might match your needs, later on.

Slot units, for GTs, are easy to call. A Me/Quick for newmans and a / Force unit (probably Orpa/Force at the highest levels, since they're such cheap drops from FoI) for the other races would be your best bet. Oddly enough, though, I find anything less than a Me/Quick too slow even with my Beast GT.

SOLOING

Guntecher is, these days, one of the worst Types for pure soloing. But if you're going to do it, you can long as you have decent NPCs - Leo and Tonnio, or even Tylor, being preferred, as they deal the melee damage you can't and act as very nice meatshields. The best PMs would be either 41x or 42x models for more melee damage.

MEGID vs KILLER SHOT

When it comes to the Incapacitate SE, the Guntecher is the only Type that has access to both choices: Megid and Killer Shot. So which one is better?

Neither, really. KS is better for aiming around corners and downing individual bots; Megid is excellent if the room has choke points you can funnel bots into.

Sadly, few bot-heavy levels have those chokepoints, so in the final analysis I'd have to say go for Killer Shot.

TRAPS

Traps can and will save you time. The best trap we can use is the Burn G trap; sometimes it's hard to give an SE to a gang of Jarbas or Tengoughs, and they often spawn close together. Dropping a G-level trap and triggering it fast means that you've just saved yourself a bit of time in dishing out the pain and helped your group out immensely.

Save your traps for big enemies, however; you can't carry enough to spam them at little enemies and besides, you can SE those well enough with your guns that you shouldn't need traps. And they're expensive, too.

ON DEALING WITH SPELLCASTERS

We all hate them. Gazorans, Deljabans, Gohmon, Vanda, whatever they might be, every world has 'em and they all do very nasty things that ought to be illegal. One of the most useful things you can do on a team is deal with them.

But not with silence. Oh no.

CONFUSE eliminates them as a threat, and for some reason seems to apply a lot more. Confuse makes it so enemies do no damage with spells whatsoever (who knows why? A glitch?) and makes their melee attacks go astray very often as well. Also, whether or not it's shock or silence that prevents Deljabans from flinging megid, confuse throws them for a loop either way, and does increased damage to them to boot.

Because of that, confuse may well be one of your more important SEs to have. If you have the patience, crossbow will do the most good - SE3 will stick often and last longer - but cards will level faster and do just fine themselves. Avoid trying to apply it with mechguns or laser cannons; SE1 is just a joke.


SOLOING

Guntecher is probably one of the better soloing classes, particularly once you get your resta over 400, and as long as you have decent NPCs - Laia and a 410/420 being preferred, as they deal the melee damage you can't and act as very nice meatshields.

Against small human-size or smaller mobs all of the same element, it's best to run past them so that your NPCs get entangled in melee, then hit them with element they're weak against.

If it's a mixed element mob, pull out your Dark crossbow or Dark dual handgun (preferably at 21+ for the crossbow) and spread DOTs - hitting them for 30-35% of their HP will go a long way towards crampign their style.

If it's a large beastie, give it a DOT from your bow/rifle while your NPCs beat them up. Then, if it's a monster with multiple hit areas (like a Kog Nadd or Strateria) or one that's strong against bullets (like the Dilzanen) MELEE! Pull out that tasty elemental dagger and Buten Shuren-zan until it drops or the DOT runs out. If it's vulnerable to bullets, peg it with the element it's weak to.


DRAWING AGGRO

For those of you who don't know this already, monsters don't like being shot. It makes them angry, and when they get angry they charge.

"Aww, but I hate that!" you whine. "I hit them with one or two rifle bullets and they jump all over me!"

But you haven't thought of the tactical opportunities here. You can save your hunter buddy's butt by distracting half of the mob that's charging him, and lead them on a merry goose chase through the block while he smashes them from behind. Or you can draw the monsters into nice, tight groups for ra/gi/di spells, or even barta if your fortetecher buddy likes it for some reason.

Also, you can dodge very, very easily while doing this too - just release the strafe button and run away, to reposition yourself so you've got plenty more backwalking room.

For the aggro-baiter, the best gun is the mechgun, hands down. Heck, you don't even have to have the strafe button held in - just blast away until you have to run, and then release!


GUNTECHER ENDGAME HUNTING

Well, now that you've got your guntecher up to level 80+, what do you want to hunting for?

Let's see, there's the Twin Tornado from either De Ragnus or Mother Brain, Cubo Tuma from Dulk Fakis, Rikauteri from Adahna Degahna, or a Muzzlefever from the bots in Desert Goliath S2.

For units, you WANT a Solid/Power S, or a Cati/Power S. A Bullet/PP Save would be nice, but it's also not too necessary: you want to hit harder, especially as a GT. You have the ATA to sacrifice to the Solid/Power S very easily, so why not hunt for what's the best?

As far as head slots go, a /quick unit is your friend. Fortunately, they're an easy drop in Dancing Birds.


CONCLUSION

Give SEs to enemies. Burn the big ones, shock the little/midsize ones, heal if the fortetecher isn't paying attention, debuff, and above all DON'T worry about DPS.

You aren't playing a DPS class. Fortegunners and guntechers, while we can deal quite a bit of damage, can't match the amount that a fortefighter with an axe, or a fortetecher with dambarta, or even a wartecher with dus daggas, can dish out.

But you are playing the best class in the game, one that is indespensible to those other classes and one that they'll beg you to play over and over and over again, once you get good at playing it.

Enjoy it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2008-04-06 12:48 ]</font>

[DonRoyale]

Why am I taking offense to this?

Regardless, one thing you did miss:

The lovable friendly dragon that's made of cotton candy, De Ragus, is a neutral element. He's not fire.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

[juno-6]

I think this is a good universal guide to the Guntecher class and really should help out anyone starting GT or just confused about how they should play whereas Serens guide was more racially specific and a breakdown of each races role as a GT. Both have their purpose. but it is a bit biased and opinionated.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-06 21:23 ]</font>

[Midicronica]

I like this. I found it to be helpful. Although, I can't say I agree with you about Mechguns just flat out sucking.

[Dhylec]

Well, another guide to the list. Keep it up & remember to update. ;]

[Arigan]

On 2007-01-06 19:00, imfanboy wrote:
For crossbow, the same thing - except possibly add either burn or virus, because SE3 DOES have a chance of affecting some of the big guys like Jarbas. Plus, 3x chance of SE3 vs. 1x chance of SE4 means a better THEORETICAL chance of procing the status effect.

As a fortegunner who has been using SE3 rifles (level 11-20) for a long time because they take forever to level, and has been leveling said bullets in lab with jarbas, I can say that I'm 99.99% sure this is untrue, unless something changed in the last update. I have never in my entire time of playing PSU seen a SE3 anything stick on a large mob.

Otherwise, cool info, I plan on referring to this for my guntecher when I finally get him off the ground.

[Ether]

The only SE3 I've seen stick to a large monster is fire, the rest seem to require level 4 if they work at all, since I don't think something like shock will ever stick to a large monster

[Sitka]

Nice job Imfanboy.

I agree with virtually everything and it's written in an enjoyable style.

Kudos http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[BahnKnakyu]

Woah, old post.

imafanboy: Please update to take into account the new bullets and weapons we got, especially the ones we will get this week.

[imfanboy]

I'm waiting until I see some of them in person this weekend, particularly Mayalee Beam, before I update this guide. ^_^ I have 307 PA Frags and I'll probably get more before Friday, so I'll have PLENTY to play around with......

[Rizen]

When I get a chance to level my Guntecher so more I will make a miniguide to Human Male Guntecher or something.

Keep up the good work http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[ShinMaruku]

Now you make me want to make a GT now... Yayt for my multiple meory card slots.

[juno-6]

TACTICS - Guntechers actually have more ATP/ATA than a Protranser, maybe a Beast PT>Numan GT in terms of DPS?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-06 21:35 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-06 21:36 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

Changed the melee section, and added a more detailed section on Technics from a Guntecher perspective.

[juno-6]

Zodeel is a good debuff for humans and beasts, bringing their accuracy and evasion helps you offensively and defensively.

[60Hz]

Hmm fire is not the ideal for me because it doesnt stack with anything but sleep. Virus or poison stacks with freeze - so i would build up freeze and then virus.

I didn't know Vears can be shocked - i'll have to test that out...

I'm a PT originally now doing the GT thing, my shotgun is my primary for two reasons: damage, i can hit up to 1000pts in one shot (200 x 5) and i have almost guaranteed SE. My bow i use if i want SE higher enemies , like freezing Vears but now i'm leaning more toward just dealing damage with a yellow point blank shotgun blast which is a bout 350pts on an armored vear versus 250...

I only use debuffs because usually i'm paired up with a fo and if not i can always heal myself (i have resta/reverser)...

all in all i liked the guide... good stuff! GT is a fun class, almost as fun as PT, if it only had some melee options!

[Natrokos]

Very good^^ De Ragnus is a non-elemental enemy however....I think you mentioned him as being fire.

[juno-6]

On 2007-02-08 00:14, 60Hz wrote:
GT is a fun class, almost as fun as PT, if it only had some melee options!



PT's would be cool if they had ANY tech options.

[Alisha]

Zodeel is utterly unnecessary.
i lol'ed at this. if anything is utterly un-neccesary its jellen. especially since guntecher i believe has one of the higher evp values. imo with the new 21+ zodeel inducing shotgun bullets evp > defence. if melees cry about blocking during pa's they can cry me a fucking river go buy some photon chargers bitch http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[imfanboy]

Mmm...

On second thought, i can see how buffing my own evp and reducing the enemy's ata could be an advantage... but remember, it's based off of a percentage. If the enemy ATP is far higher than their ATA, as is probably the case, we'd benefit more from using Jellen I'd think...

But oh well, I changed the guide to reflect the comments about zodial/zodeel. ^-^

[Zarbolord]

GUIDE UPDATE: SPECIALISING AS GT FOR CASTS

Much for the GT has been said in this thread, but although it might work for everyclass, the cast has a hard time with techs, so here's a little help from my experience as a lvl 55 GT CAST.

First of all, I rarely use traps.... why? Basically as CASTS have a higher ATP and ATA from most GTs. Point being they can directly inflict effects. When you reach a group of enemies, its good to get the rifle or bow and start shooting, the ones you hit will have a tiny knockback, and will momentarily, stop the advance. The effects you'll inflict will also help the other party members to clear the room quickly.

Elements: It is good to keep different element bullets for all guns, a good initiative would be to have at least 2, and now since ultimate PAs are comming out, you might want to get one of those neutral ones that inflict different effects, such as Twin Mayalee,or the new laser PA that knocks back.

The cast GT can evolve under 2 ways: The damager and the group helper. Both can be done at the same time, but you will soon notice that it is one or the other. A damager, will basically use the damaging and ice bullets, which are Dark, Fire and Ice. Infection and Burn cannot be given to one enemy at the same time, as they do the same effect: dmg. The higher the effect lvl the more dmg you will do. AS a CAST this is the strategy I'd say to adopt. I have tried all PAs for all bullets, but I have noticed that casts having high ATP and high ATA can clean a room quickly using these capacitites. If you're more of a group helper then you will use Light, Earth, and Plasma bullets.

Equipment for damager and strategy: Mainly use direct range, never go for skills as they'll slow you up. A rifle, a bow, twin handguns are the main ranged weaponry you'll be interested in, do NOT go for the laser unless you really like it, as it is slow and not very effective. If ever you do take a laser, use the ultimate PA for knockback. Ice bullets freeze the enemy, and then you can infect, a crossbow and handgun with 2 wands would also be part of the equipment as the cast guntecher can run into the melee without getting as much DMG as the other races and styart healing the group. You may also want to add a shot, but I am not a fan of shots and I have managed with ease up to now without one. You may replace a left hand weapon with a card, or add a third wand with one.

Equipment for group^helper and strategy: Please note that the group helper is basically the GT that gives time to the group and helps other classes to proceed with attacking. Cards with wands are essential, my cast at lvl 55 can inflict up to 600 dmg with 3 cards flying at lvl 21 bullet. But the most important here is not the damage you inflict, but the effects you give. Cards have a nice homing capacity and so you can easily hit the enemy you want to hit. Shots are essential here too, they will hit numerous enemies inflicting the effects without problem, and as they don't hold the enemy from attacking you, you will not suffer from their hits as a newman would. also use handguns and twin handguns as they are quick, keep a bow and rifle if ever there is need to deal high damage. The bullets you use here will paralyse, silence and confuse the enemy, which incapacitates the enemies holding back their power, and leaving you team to take action.

Now both of these can be used as a main strategy, one GT can hold all of these PAs so there is no problem for that. In this way you can alternate your strategy, be it for a whole run or inside the run itself, depending on the group members, if any. For casts in general, I have one thing to say, as GT, your wands won't be that fantastic. the TP doesn't increase very much at all, and it will be a long time before you'll be able to use A rank wands, but in the end you will and they'll be of good use. You may not agree with this, but it is my view of the cast GT. It also may be valid for other races, but I think that casts need to be aware of their capacities before randomly selecting GT http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zarbolord on 2007-02-08 23:46 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

Is this going to be the official Guntecher Thread? I'm getting a little tired of going around and posting in these. Anyway, in the following text I've consolidated my impressions of the class, which I've made in a variety of threads

For the purpose of disclosure here is a little background about my character, I am a 67 Beast Guntecher 8 and I'm the Xbox 360. I use the following weapons: Ulteri 3x, Alteric +6 x3, Hanmateric x2, Evil Twins 3x, Arb Rega +6 x2, Deathmaker x1. Cubo Dunga x2, Cuga Mamba x1, Mira-kikami x3, Beam Vulcanic x3. I have all 6 elements for Bows, Crossbows, Dual Handguns, Machineguns, and Cards. For the most part, I spend my time solo, duo, or rarely in a trio, this has led to me developing time-efficient takedown strategies for the majority of the enemies in the game.

First of all Damage Techs are a trap, do not bother with any of them, there is never a situation in which you will be doing more damage with these, then you could with the appropriate Ranged weapon. This even goes for Newmans, I'm sorry but Guntecher the class only allows you a total of 44% of your Race's base TP and that is at lvl 10, what this means is that even a Female Newman Guntecher will have 75% of the total TP that a level equivalent Cast Male Fortetecher has, and that is absolutely, and positively gimp when it comes to attack Techs.

Many people disregard the Guntecher as a damage class, but what they do not realize is the fact that the Guntecher has access to the most damaging and versatile ranged weapons equipable.

Bows, for example, have the highest Att and Acc out of any of the other ranged weapons and carry Lvl 4 S.E. with 30% element, on top of this they avoid the monster's Defense (but not flat 50% or 25% reductions). While this is an easy bonus to discount in even the lower level S Ranks, keep in mind that as we being recieving S2 missions the Defense bypass will only become more lucrative. That being said however, I do not primarily use my Bows unless the monsters have an incredible amount of Hitpoints, or are outright resistant to bullets. In these two cases the Lvl 4 S.E. Burn or Infection does the most damage out of my available options. I also bring out my Bow when De Regan, Dimmagolus, or Onmagoug take flight.

Notable Drops: The Blue Bots in Grove drop Hikauri 6* (w/ Kubara: Alteric) boards on A. Alterics are really decent when grinded, not a bad weapon if you're tight for cash. Heck bows aren't really about DPS, mostly about the DoT. But if you really need accuracy for Mizuras/BUGs you can make Hanmaterics, I'm a beast and even I can hit these things essily with a Hanmateric. The Roksari 8* (w/ Kubara: Hanmateric) boards drop from the same Blue Bots in Grove on S.

If anything, Crossbows are the 'Bread and Butter' of a Guntecher. They are absolute kings of Ranged Weapon DPS. They have a 3 shot dispersal with 21+ Bullets and carry Lvl 3 S.E. Some might argue with me that Shotguns outperform Crossbow DPS but in reality they are about the same, if you doubt me than you are welcome to join a mission with me and compare them side by side. The Crossbow has a quicker rate of fire than the Shotgun (seriously why the hell do you have to pump a laser?), and it lets you remain mobile. I primarily use Crossbows against enemies which I can comfortably engage at close range, but they are particularly handy when I need to quickly apply a longlasting S.E. (Unlike with Shotguns you don't risk immediately breaking the Ice with the same attack you just used to place it on your enemy). Also if you're character is on the Short side you can rip into S Rank Vanda's with ease, as they seem to stay at an optimum distance away from you to hurl Diga over your head and they line up in a manner which facilitates hitting three at medium range.

Notable Drops: Completed Cuga Mambas will sometimes drop from the Mid-Bosses at the end of the West Parum Train Mission on S. I know it's not on any lists, but I've seen it happen, this is how I got mine.

Tip: A soloing strategy I employ to deal with Grove/Endrum/Train bots is to dish S.E. lvl 4 Infect on them with a Bow, then quickly freeze them with my Crossbow. This makes the whole process rather painless. This technique works rather well with just about any enemy that can be Infected and Frozen.

Cards are easy to dismiss at first glance, since we are only allowed to equip A Ranks. Doing so however, would be a dire mistake, as these are probably the most practical of all of the situational ranged weapons and will therefore see the most use. They home, have 25%x3 element, range right behind the Rifle, and accuracy second only to Bows. Cards are absolutely invaluable when dealing with anything that either Flies or Hurls dangerous Techs. Seriously, equipping cards against a lvl 85 Gaozoran is like activating easy mode. Also the card is tops with DPS, In testing, it ranks right behind the Crossbow, I guarantee that with a sufficiently leveled Card bullet you will be able to kill a Tengogh or it's Dark cousin much faster than you would with either Infect or Burn lvl 4 regardless of it's level.

I'm going to withhold any final judgements on Machineguns until we recieve the update which improves their damage, but even in their current state I still do use them against smallish type enemies with piss poor defense. I do have the 4 base elemental bullets 21+, but I'm not feeling them at the moment, hopefully the patch will bring em up to speed.

Also, Twin Handguns don't really have a niche. While they have a rather broad application, they are not particularly excellent at any particular task. I feel that they're being romantisized a bit in the first post. They're not really made for dancing, if anything, Cards are the dancing shoes. As such I keep them as back-ups. But If I have to drop an elemental or two in the future it will probably come out of the Twin line. I have lvl 30 Bullets in four of the Elements for these things, and I've yet to run into a situation in which I could not have done more damage by using either a Crossbow or a Card, and those go in one hand so my conclusion is that Twins Handguns are altogether rather disappointing.

Notable Drops: A cheap alternative to Dualies is to make a bunch of Arb Regas and grind 'em up to 6, as these make for Evil Twin equivalents. The board for Arb Regas drops from any lvl 50+ Lapucha on Moatoob. If you're feeling adventerous, the Tengogh like beasts in the Hive drop completed Deathmakers, or alternatively you can hope for the board from a Seed Vitace (Hive Only).

To avoid alot of controversy when I breach the subject of weaponry DPS I run controlled tests to rate the performance of my weapons. The way I test which of my weapons is best DPS is simple, I use each weapon with the same Lvl 30 Bullet which doesn't add a DoT (i.e. Earth, Ice, Shock, Light) and see how long it takes me to kill a particular monster of the opposite element with each of my weapons.

Here are some results:

On a level 90 Polty (Low HP, Low Def Mob) using lvl 30 Earth.
From Fastest to Slowest:
1. Yak Diga lvl 30 (w/ Cuga Mamba, 9* Crossbow)
2. Jusei-shiki lvl 30 (w/ Mira-kikami, 9* Cards)
3. Twin Grav lvl 30 (w/ Deathmaker, 9* Twin Handguns)
4. Jisei-sou lvl 30 (w/ Ulteri, 9* Bow)

On a level 90 Jarba (Hi HP, Med Def Mob)
From Fastest to Slowest
1. Yak Riga lvl 30 (w/ Cuga Mamba, 9* Crossbow)
2. Reisei-shiki lvl 30 (w/ Mira-kikami, 9* Cards)
3. Reisei-sou lvl 30 (w/ Ulteri, 9* Bow)
4. Twin Freeze lvl 30 (w/ Deathmaker, 9* Dual Handgun)

[Zarbolord]

Are you trying to say that if you're of a certain class you obtain more chances for a weapon? Ridiculous! That would utterly disgust everyone. Also remember how complex this would make probability calcualtions, they already are copmplex using this method would make it worse, for a worse outcome. You may give those stats for a general appearance but I think that intuiting that the GT finds more crossbows than anyone is silly. Anyway, I don't see he point of mentioning rly as its basically a thread on strategy. If I understood badly then you wrote it in the way that made me understand that. Diss finished.

I have tried almost every class, and GT still remains my favorite, adjacent to fortetecher. ALthough many of your stats are correct there is still a lot we can't know as the S weapons are missing and the SS missions haven't appeared yet, also the ulmtimate PAs may change things around.

[juno-6]

On 2007-02-09 11:38, Zarbolord wrote:
Are you trying to say that if you're of a certain class you obtain more chances for a weapon? Ridiculous! That would utterly disgust everyone. Also remember how complex this would make probability calcualtions, they already are copmplex using this method would make it worse, for a worse outcome. You may give those stats for a general appearance but I think that intuiting that the GT finds more crossbows than anyone is silly. Anyway, I don't see he point of mentioning rly as its basically a thread on strategy. If I understood badly then you wrote it in the way that made me understand that. Diss finished.

I have tried almost every class, and GT still remains my favorite, adjacent to fortetecher. ALthough many of your stats are correct there is still a lot we can't know as the S weapons are missing and the SS missions haven't appeared yet, also the ulmtimate PAs may change things around.



I really don't know where you got that impression?

[Kupi]

On the SE4 weapons (Rifles and Bows): Another good reason to get and level a Freeze PA is that it resets enemies to their neutral state when they break from the ice. For large enemies that can't be burnt or infected (notably the Stateria and Galvapas at the end of Agata Relics), an SE4 Freeze going off at the right time can stop a lot of damage from happening.

[juno-6]

On 2007-02-09 16:03, Kupi wrote:
On the SE4 weapons (Rifles and Bows): Another good reason to get and level a Freeze PA is that it resets enemies to their neutral state when they break from the ice. For large enemies that can't be burnt or infected (notably the Stateria and Galvapas at the end of Agata Relics), an SE4 Freeze going off at the right time can stop a lot of damage from happening.



Yup! Hey, did you notice that they would only be frozen for like 2-3 seconds though?

[Kupi]

On 2007-02-09 16:34, juno-6 wrote:

On 2007-02-09 16:03, Kupi wrote:
On the SE4 weapons (Rifles and Bows): Another good reason to get and level a Freeze PA is that it resets enemies to their neutral state when they break from the ice. For large enemies that can't be burnt or infected (notably the Stateria and Galvapas at the end of Agata Relics), an SE4 Freeze going off at the right time can stop a lot of damage from happening.



Yup! Hey, did you notice that they would only be frozen for like 2-3 seconds though?



Oh, I'm aware that freeze breaks quickly under concentrated attacks. I'm talking about the fact that, say, if a Stateria's winding up to do its big circular swing attack and you freeze it, when it unfreezes, it won't finish the attack. At worst, it'll wind up doing the swing again, and at best it'll do more jumping around before trying another attack. I'm not saying that freeze prevents damage by locking them down, I'm saying it prevents damage by interrupting individual attacks. Sometimes that's the best you can do, and therefore it'd be a good idea to have an SE4 Ice bullet.

[Dymalos]

Also it is entirely possible to apply Infection on both Svaltus and the Galvapas, this goes for the rare versions of Svaltus as well. I usually infect them and then freeze them to let the Infection tick away at their health.

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-09 11:38, Zarbolord wrote:
Are you trying to say that if you're of a certain class you obtain more chances for a weapon? Ridiculous! That would utterly disgust everyone. Also remember how complex this would make probability calcualtions, they already are copmplex using this method would make it worse, for a worse outcome. You may give those stats for a general appearance but I think that intuiting that the GT finds more crossbows than anyone is silly. Anyway, I don't see he point of mentioning rly as its basically a thread on strategy. If I understood badly then you wrote it in the way that made me understand that. Diss finished.


Diss finished huh... what exactly are you trying to 'diss'? Instead of attacking my writing skills maybe you should brush up on your reading comprehension. I was not in any way implying that droprates are dependant on class, I was merely providing some information on where someone might score some free weapons.

[60Hz]

Crossbows seem to be the bread and butter of GT, but it seems they do need some investing in to reap the rewards.

I'm a big shotgun fan but the lack of movement and the SUPER SLOW firing rate is a big negative. The damage potential is of course enourmous but did u run control test comparing shotty to say crossbow or regular bow? I could probably do a quick test between bow and shotty i have both level 30 for freeze... hmm...

anyway.. I've been contemplating the move to crossbow but i'll have to overwrite some handgun pa's... 36 PA slots is not enough!

[egn56]

go with the crossbows 60 it will be the best thing you do, handguns are not that valuable crossbows are amazing.

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-10 17:05, 60Hz wrote:
Crossbows seem to be the bread and butter of GT, but it seems they do need some investing in to reap the rewards.

I'm a big shotgun fan but the lack of movement and the SUPER SLOW firing rate is a big negative. The damage potential is of course enourmous but did u run control test comparing shotty to say crossbow or regular bow? I could probably do a quick test between bow and shotty i have both level 30 for freeze... hmm...

anyway.. I've been contemplating the move to crossbow but i'll have to overwrite some handgun pa's... 36 PA slots is not enough!



I've done a somewhat direct comparison between the Crossbow and Shotgun. I don't use Shotguns, so I relied on the help of my good real life friend, who happens to specialize in them as a Cast Fortegunner. He is around the same level as me, and we tend to do alot of duo runs, we did the test in much the same way I do my own independant testing, we each choose a seperate lvl 90 Badira in Mad Beast S (We both have our Ice bullets at 30) and fired away. We both used 8* weapons, because he didn't have a 9* shotgun. After a couple of tries I concluded that the Crossbow was about equivalent to the Shotgun in terms of DPS. Now granted, he usually finished off his Badira before I did, but not by much. I suspect most of his edge comes from the fact that as a Fortegunner he has about 70 more Base ATP than I do. I know, it's not exactly a controlled experiment, but unfortunately that is about as close as I can get. I'd be interested to know your own results, seeing as how you use both weapons, so keep me posted.

Also, I noticed just yesterday that the Machinegun boost flew under the radar into Thursday's update. I think it is safe to say that I am now officially excited about Machineguns. The post lvl 21 Elemental boost was doubled from 10 to 20%, the Att boost was significantly boosted, and most surprisingly they changed it so that Acc now continues to climb at every level beyond 20. Whereas before I was doing only 80-100 a hit against anything above level 50, I'm now seeing about 170 against lvl 75 Ollakas with Frozen Fury at 23 and 200ish on lvl 75 Ageetas with Buring Fury at 21. What's more, is that even as a Beast I have a hit rate on these higher level monsters much higher than I was expecting; I'd guess that I was making about 9 in 10 hits, which given the rate of fire on these things is not bad at all. I've already started to Synth some more Beam Vulcanics (Kubara Mechs have a really good PP boost). Hopefully, I'll have some Bullets at 30 by the end of the week so that I can rank them against my other weapons.

[juno-6]

Whereas before I was doing only 80-100 a hit against anything above level 50, I'm now seeing about 170 against lvl 75 Ollakas with Frozen Fury at 23 and 200ish on lvl 75 Ageetas with Buring Fury at 21. What's more, is that even as a Beast I have a hit rate on these higher level monsters much higher than I was expecting; I'd guess that I was making about 9 in 10 hits, which given the rate of fire on these things is not bad at all.


i am so ephin glad to hear this.

[pso123hrf]

Bravo!

I just switched to it yesterday, and everything I had you covered...I have a level 43 female newman guntecher with:

Rifle
Shotgun
Card/Cane
Card/Cane
Crossbow/Cane
Crossbow/Cane

Pretty good advice 5/5

:3

[egn56]

the machine gun new is great i might throw them back into my rotation now.

also just for refernce

rifle
shotgun
bow
double handguns
card/wand (resta reverser)
crossbow/wand (debuffer)

i find this to be one of the most effective ones. however i am thinking of dropping the double handguns until s rank ones come out and adding in a machinegun/wand combo with this discover on their strength.

[Dymalos]

I have 24 weapons which I use regularly, and I'm still looking to get more. I don't know if I'd commit to a single pallete.

[tei]

Has anyone tried both Newman and Beast guntechers? If you have, could you tell me your opinions on them? In particular, with twin handguns? They're my favourite weapon and about all I can usually bring myself to use since I'm so obsessed with them. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Before I get much farther onto the character I'm raising, I'm thinking of deleting her and making a Newman because of the higher ATA, ability to use techs well (when I get bored and feel like going Force of course), having Guntecher as a favoured class, higher evade and mst... And because I don't much care for human or cast designs, I'd only want a Newman or I'll just stick with my Beast. But I'm kind of afraid of the attack drop from the highest ATP race to the lowest... I solo mostly too, so I'm afraid that would drag out my missions to ridiculously long lengths. Is the drop hugely noticable? Or do all the benefits of Newman has over Beast in this class outweigh that? Thanks for reading... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-13 22:50, tei wrote:
Has anyone tried both Newman and Beast guntechers? If you have, could you tell me your opinions on them? In particular, with twin handguns? They're my favourite weapon and about all I can usually bring myself to use since I'm so obsessed with them. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Before I get much farther onto the character I'm raising, I'm thinking of deleting her and making a Newman because of the higher ATA, ability to use techs well (when I get bored and feel like going Force of course), having Guntecher as a favoured class, higher evade and mst... And because I don't much care for human or cast designs, I'd only want a Newman or I'll just stick with my Beast. But I'm kind of afraid of the attack drop from the highest ATP race to the lowest... I solo mostly too, so I'm afraid that would drag out my missions to ridiculously long lengths. Is the drop hugely noticable? Or do all the benefits of Newman has over Beast in this class outweigh that? Thanks for reading... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif



No, you shouldn't choose Newman over Beast, especially if you've already got yourself a serviceable Beast. First of all, on the subject of Techs, you're never and I mean never going to be in a situation in which your lvl 10 Techs are going to be outdamaging your lvl 30 Bullets, this is true of even a Newman, as the Guntecher class only recieves a total of 44% of their Racial TP at level 10 in the Class. What this means is that you should avoid using Attack Techniques altogether, and when you take those out of the picture, then the only tech that you'll be using which takes into account your TP would be Resta. If you're inclined to sacrifice a great deal of ATP for a better heal (~100 more points) then maybe you should consider switching.

I run a 68 Beast Guntecher 8 on Xbox 360, I have never run into a problem with missing an enemy. As a Guntecher I have access to weapons which greatly augment my ACC, take a look at the Hanmateric, it is an 8* bow with 340 Acc, compare that to a Phantom, a 9* Rifle with 188 Acc. With the Hanmateric I have a total accuracy which is comparable to that of an equally leveled Cast Fortetecher using a Phantom. Do you think Cast Fortetechers have a problem hitting things with a 9* Rifle? No, they don't as I regularly group with one, and we're both able to shoot level 90 Mizura with about 50-60% Accuracy, and Mizuras have the absolute highest Evasion in the game, bar none. But let's put Bows or even Cards aside, sure they have great acc, but I also use Crossbows, Dual Handguns, and Machineguns. Yes, I use Machineguns as a Beast, in fact they are really quite wonderful doing around 200 damage each shot against a low defense target, such as a lvl 75 Ageeta. And I do not have accuracy problems with my Beam Vulcanic (8* Machine Gun), despite the fact that it has only 60 Acc.

The thing about maintaining good Accuracy, is that you have to be realistic about what weapon you use to shoot each particular creature. For example, even a Cast Fortegunner, would not have a decent chance of hitting a high level Mizura with a Drumline (9* Machinegun). In that situation the best thing to do would be to try and land either Burn or Infection with a Rifle, and let the S.E. do the majority of the damage. As a Beast Guntecher, I use a similar strategy, except I replace the Rifle with a Bow, so that my Accuracy is on par with that of the Fortegunner.

If you've got any more questions I suggest you read my previous post on page 2 of this thread.

[iono]

I've been playing a Beast GT since around when Mizu S was new. I'm 70/10 atm and I've been 70/10 for a week or 3 now. I agree with most of what Dymalos is saying. Don't misunderstand though. Even a CAST with a Bow is going to miss at times. It's just the way accuracy works. I recently made a CAST fortefighter alt because I was hoping that, being a CAST, I wouldn't miss nearly as much as a Beast fF. Wow was I wrong. I still see zeros a lot. I'm level 3 at fF on my beast, so yeah I have played a beast fF and know from experience. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I also wanted to add that a newman GT really is a lot better off than a beast GT at a low level. At a low level. Make sure you understand that. Low level beast GTs have to deal with not being able to use the best guns until later while a newman has access to them early on. Low level beast GTs are stuck with 3/4* wands and heal for piddly HP while a newman GT can use A rank wands even at around level 40, depending on job level.

That all changes by endgame though. At endgame, beast GT can equip every GT gun, we have sufficient ATA to hit stuff, and (female at least) I can use a 6* grinded wand that has the TP of an 8* wand. Newmans really start to lose out because their ATP doesn't grow as well as the other three races and because ATA/TP becomes less and less important the higher you go. Once you have enough of ATA or TP to equip the highest weapon you want to use, those two stats stop mattering as much. I have to switch to Protranser with my 133 ATA to even see the difference ATA makes versus my GT with 303 ATA.

I've actually noticed by talking to many different GTs that there is a trend between races. While I'll go for damage, a newman almost always goes for status effects. If a newman wants to deal damage, they'll try to DoT before they'll try to grab an element advantage. For me however as a beast, I'm finding that DoT is usually too weak and I'll do better damage by just using, say, ice guns on fire monsters. I'm not really trying to say one is better than the other, but rather that the race you play will affect your playstyle. I still need to use DoT against range-resistantant monsters, especially large ones.

Oh yeah, and about bugs. Sure a newman ~can~ hit a bug marginally more often than I can. But you know what? When that little bar at the bottom left of my screen starts glowing, I can nano and start hitting bugs for 450ish a pop without missing at all. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I don't have the offensive nano but that'd probably be doing 900s.

Btw on shot versus crossbow - I've got the 9* of each. My lightning shot is level 30 but my earth crossbow is level 24. Self-buffed, the crossbow shoots 310*3=930 damage per button press on S rank Vahras (lightning) while the shot puts out 240*5=1200 damage on S rank moatoob rats (earth). Given the rate of fire, even my level 24 crossbow outdamages a level 30 shot. When you think about how shots grind up, a crossbow is going to be a better choice in the long run imo. I've deleted all but my lightning shot and bought all 6 elements of crossbow bullets. I don't even carry a shot anymore; if I run out of pp I'll photon charge one of my other weapons.

I think another thing that got said was that Twin Guns don't really have a place when compared to crossbow/fan. That's basically true. One thing I'd rather use a twin gun on than either of those two weapons is worms. With fan, you can't hit worms reliably because they'll plop back down while your bullets are still in the air. Using a crossbow can be very effective but it requires getting close to focus fire, which leaves you open to be hit and knocked on your butt plus getting Jellen'd. Bows and rifles are too slow to turn and with PSU's lag, worms teleport too much to reliably predict where they'll pop up.

[tei]

Thanks for both replies, they're certainly making me consider Beast more now. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif But to fix something misleading I said in my last post, I'm aware that Guntechers don't use damage techs or other TP-related techs much, I just meant that aside from Guntecher, I'd like to work on Force or Fortetecher on the side the days I got bored of GT, since I'm not fond of melee fighting or most other ranged classes, so that's what I meant about liking the higher TP rate.

Yes, I did read that about twin guns, and I can completely understand that they're outclassed in most situations. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif (Well, maybe I don't understand fan part, as it's the only guntecher weapon I haven't tried yet, but I'll take the masses' good word on it) But I just don't enjoy the game as much with any other weapons, it's the access to S-Rank twin handguns that made me want to be Guntecher over, say, Fortegunner in the first place. I'm aware how childish and picky that is (xD), but I really can't give up on twin handguns because I just have so much fun with them. As I said up higher, techs and twin guns are about all I have fun with, so that's why I was considering newm, so I could work on getting to Fortetecer whenever I got bored of twin guns for a bit.

Everything else that you both said certainly gives me a lot to think about, since I was pretty set on Newm last night, and now tonight your posts have made me feel more strongly about Beast http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif Again, thank you both for your time http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[60Hz]

Crossbows seemed to be the diamonds in the rough. Though Shotties seem to outpower it the mobility that crossbows have give it a real advantage in actual combat. It's one thing to deal tons of damage, but if there is no knock back you need to be able to back off yourself to minimize damage. Shotguns slow fire rate makes you an ez target especially to any massive enemy...

Unfortunately my stay in GT land is near an end... until i go FG (which i may) i am not going to invest in crossbow pa's yet... i've messed up by not going that route earlier and feel i didn't take the full advantage of the class...

[Sgt_Shligger]

Gah. . . Is it worth being a newman GT >_>;

The ATP is so low for Resta. . . And are the buffs really working? I don't recall the damage boosting.

[Schubalts]

Buffs work. Newman and human TP actually make Resta worth casting. Guntechers need EVP and ATA, Newmans have both. Every race brings something to Guntecher.

Guntecher is far from being a damage-dealing class, anyway. It's the only class whose sole purpose is supporting the party.

[imfanboy]

If Steyr didn't already have so many high-leveled bullets, I'd probably change my beast fortefighter to a guntecher. ^-^ You're right, the strength issue far outweighs anything else when it comes to soloing effectively. When I solo with Steyr these days, I tend to swap her to fortetecher and dambarta everything in my way.

On the other hand, as a team player, my GT really IS king - dishing out whatever SEs need dishing. I can't say how much damage the crossbow will do - it's still only lv 18 - but I'm not doing so badly at all, at all...


And as a side note, with a 9* wand at 67/GT6, I can heal about 550 with NO Retier at all - that's enough to really make a difference in first-aid.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-02-14 21:15 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-14 20:49, Schubalts wrote:
Buffs work. Newman and human TP actually make Resta worth casting. Guntechers need EVP and ATA, Newmans have both. Every race brings something to Guntecher.

Guntecher is far from being a damage-dealing class, anyway. It's the only class whose sole purpose is supporting the party.



Saying that a Guntecher is not meant for damage is a complete mischaracterization of the class and what it has available in terms of equipment. The problem with the 'support' label is that it is essentially a crutch that low ATP races use to justify their class choice. As a Beast or a Cast, Guntecher is the single best Ranged Offensive class. And you know what, their Buffs and Debuffs do exactly the same thing as those of Newmans and Humans. The Crossbow for example, is absolutely the best Ranged DPS when combined with a halfway decent ATP, it has S.E. Lvl 3 which works on anything but Mini-Bosses and last a long while, and it keeps us mobile so that we can keep out of harms way, and while it's true that they are close ranged weapons, Cards come in at a close second in terms of DPS and offer exceptional range and homing capability. Heck, even the once rebuffed Machinegun now gets incredible damage boosts at 21+, I'm willing to bet that once I level my bullets to 30 that it will slip in alongside the Crossbow and Cards in terms of Best Ranged DPS.

And no, I'm not only refering to Guns when I say best Ranged Offensive class. I've partied with comparably leveled Fortetechers of all kinds and they've had Howrods and 21+ Techs, and I've still been able to outdamage them (over time), in fact the only time they out perform me is when there are 4+ monsters clumped together. And while certainly, a Fortegunner could put out better damage than me if he or she used a Crossbow, that will certainly change when I am able to acquire S Ranks and he or she is not.

Finally, Saying that only Humans or Newman Guntechers have a useable Resta is a slight, which quite frankly is not at all based on any kind of hard data. Currently the only thing holding a Beast back from having a nearly comparable heal to that of a Newman is the TP Reqs on the Wands. I can only use a Crozier sure, but guess what? I can grind my Crozier, and I have, 2 of them in fact at +8, which makes them functionally equivalent to 8* A Ranks. So what does that leave the Newman with? 163 TP more than the Beast which given the rate at which TP translates into Healing, which is not even 1 TP per HP, and comes out to a heal that is better by 120ish points. Another thing to consider, by the time a Beast can be lvl 100, I am willing to bet that they will be able to equip the 9* Wand, same as a Newman.

[iono]

Well if you want a comparison, my +9 6* GRM wand makes me heal for 400-420 unbuffed but I don't use a /Mind unit or whatever they are called. I go for MST instead. 70/10 Beast. Since job levels don't add a whole lot to TP you'll probably be doing 600s or so at 70/10 I think. o.o

Oh yeah and I was only able to equip a 6* GRM when I hit 70/10...I was 70/9 for a bit and couldn't use it. I still can't use a 6* Tenora or Yohmei. That's how pitiful beast TP is. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif Almost as bad as CAST - female CAST can do 5* only barely at 70/10. Thankfully I kinda like how a GRM wand is when you grind it. I doubt if a male beast can reach 6* wands tho.

And then when we get A grinders, newmans will be healing for even more while beasts won't until we get a higher level cap.

[SolomonGrundy]

on the subject of race for a guntecher:

Newmans take advantage of the ATA, EVP, and MST (almost = to a wartecker in tis regard). They recieve a racial bonus for the class.

Since Guns generally have low ATP, and GT ATP is not high (only Protranser, and Fortetecher are lower), the newmans lower ATP is LESS of an issue (because no one expects a guntecher to use DPS to take down an enemy, instead they rely on mobility and DOTs.

Probaly the next best GT is human. Again, the racial bonus, helps in all areas, and the ATA is not an issue.


Beast and Cast GTs suffer from not being able to equip the proper wands. Additionally, Beast ATA is not great. It is servicable, but its worth noting that there is strong evidence that suggests inflicting SEs on enemies is tied to ATA.

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-15 00:12, SolomonGrundy wrote:
on the subject of race for a guntecher:

Newmans take advantage of the ATA, EVP, and MST (almost = to a wartecker in tis regard). They recieve a racial bonus for the class.

Since Guns generally have low ATP, and GT ATP is not high (only Protranser, and Fortetecher are lower), the newmans lower ATP is LESS of an issue (because no one expects a guntecher to use DPS to take down an enemy, instead they rely on mobility and DOTs.

Probaly the next best GT is human. Again, the racial bonus, helps in all areas, and the ATA is not an issue.


Beast and Cast GTs suffer from not being able to equip the proper wands. Additionally, Beast ATA is not great. It is servicable, but its worth noting that there is strong evidence that suggests inflicting SEs on enemies is tied to ATA.





What exactly Solomon do you consider to be the 'proper' wands? Because every single Buff and Debuff has the same exact effect regardless of the kind of Wand that uses it. I'm sorry to keep brow beating you people over this same issue but the only TP-dependant Tech which is worth using as a Guntecher is Resta. In my opinion, the better Resta (we're talking 120-180 more hp) is a poor trade off for the lost ATP.

Solomon, I notice you play a ForteFighter Beast, and then you come on here and make an argument against Beast Guntecher ATA. I'm not sure why you believe that, as a Guntecher I would not be able to hit the same things that a Melee could. In fact, as iono and myself would tell you, Beasts run into no accuracy problems whatsoever when dealing with even the Highest enemy evasion. The truth is that obscenely high amounts of ATA have a negligible advantage, especially considering that Guntechers more than any other Ranger job have weapons which compensate for low racial ATA. As a final note, I do not buy the so called 'Strong' evidence that ATA is influencing SE Rate, this is something the Japanese have not picked up on, and they would have found this out on the first day of the release heh. No, seriously even if this is true, it wouldn't matter because as a Beast or Cast your S.E.s become 2nd banana to achieving greater overall damage (by opposing element) when it comes to taking out Monsters.

EVP is certainly nice, but as a Beast I have about the same Evasion as a Newman's have, so that makes that argument completely invalid doesn't it? Allow me to explain, at lvl 70/10 I'm able to wear the 8* Tenora Armor, while a Newman with the same levels lacks the Defense to equip 8* Tenora and has to settle for either Yohmei or GRM, or a weaker Tenora.

Alot of you guys are stereotyping against the Guntecher's damage capabilities without having seen either a Cast or a Beast use the class. Heck, some of you guys commenting in this thread, haven't even played a Guntecher period, or at least you don't list one alongside the other toons in your sigs. I run a Beast Guntecher, and I'm speaking from experience here, and I am simply saying that the high ATP completely transforms the Class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-15 01:25 ]</font>

[iono]

I missed more on my beast Fortefighter than on my beast Guntecher. I'd almost say ATA is more of an issue on a fF than it is on any ranger class except that beast fFs get so ridiculously much ATP than they can compensate.


On 2007-02-15 00:12, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Since Guns generally have low ATP, and GT ATP is not high (only Protranser, and Fortetecher are lower), the newmans lower ATP is LESS of an issue (because no one expects a guntecher to use DPS to take down an enemy, instead they rely on mobility and DOTs.


That doesn't even make sense. If guns have a lower ATP as you claim, the race with more ATP will do a lot more damage. O_o It's when weapons have an extremely high ATP such as with axes that a newman's damage will be more comparable to a beast's.

[Phlamingtoad]

I wish beasts and CASTS would stop using the "but if i grind the wand to +10 it will be the same as a 9* wand, the same that newmans can use!"

You have to realize newmans will be grinding those 9* wands to +10 as well, you're still just as far behind.

Add to that, that higher level wands will probably add more TP per grind than a lower one

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-15 09:58, Phlamingtoad wrote:
I wish beasts and CASTS would stop using the "but if i grind the wand to +10 it will be the same as a 9* wand, the same that newmans can use!"

You have to realize newmans will be grinding those 9* wands to +10 as well, you're still just as far behind.

Add to that, that higher level wands will probably add more TP per grind than a lower one



You first statement is valid, but consider that by the time that A Ranks can be grinded, the level cap will be extended allowing my Beast to start to using these same A Ranks. Keep in mind that as Guntecher we're limited to A ranks, what that means that other races will eventually catch up to Newmans and will also be using the 9*s. It will just be a matter of levels, PSO went to 200 and I fully expect that PSU will do 100 if not more.

Your last statement is completely erroneous as A Ranks wands (and indeed, all A rank weapons) gain less stats per grind than Bs. In fact the W'gacros 6* Tenora Works Wand has 576 Tech at 10 grinds which when compared to 612 on the Majimra 9* Yohmei Wand at 10 Grinds is only slightly worse and far more economical. I will be able to equip the W'gacros at 72/10 and it will be far easier and cheaper for me to grind these up to +10 than it would be for the Newman to get a Majimra to +6 which is where it would tie the W'gacros +10's TP. You can see these stats for yourself over at the Japanese wiki.

As for anyone who continues posting baseless speculation on this whole Beast TP/ATA or Cast TP matter, I suggest that you get yourself some data before making any claims.

[SolomonGrundy]

What exactly Solomon do you consider to be the 'proper' wands? Because every single Buff and Debuff has the same exact effect regardless of the kind of Wand that uses it. I'm sorry to keep brow beating you people over this same issue but the only TP-dependant Tech which is worth using as a Guntecher is Resta. In my opinion, the better Resta (we're talking 120-180 more hp) is a poor trade off for the lost ATP.

Solomon, I notice you play a ForteFighter Beast, and then you come on here and make an argument against Beast Guntecher ATA. I'm not sure why you believe that, as a Guntecher I would not be able to hit the same things that a Melee could. In fact, as iono and myself would tell you, Beasts run into no accuracy problems whatsoever when dealing with even the Highest enemy evasion. The truth is that obscenely high amounts of ATA have a negligible advantage, especially considering that Guntechers more than any other Ranger job have weapons which compensate for low racial ATA. As a final note, I do not buy the so called 'Strong' evidence that ATA is influencing SE Rate, this is something the Japanese have not picked up on, and they would have found this out on the first day of the release heh. No, seriously even if this is true, it wouldn't matter because as a Beast or Cast your S.E.s become 2nd banana to achieving greater overall damage (by opposing element) when it comes to taking out Monsters.

EVP is certainly nice, but as a Beast I have about the same Evasion as a Newman's have, so that makes that argument completely invalid doesn't it? Allow me to explain, at lvl 70/10 I'm able to wear the 8* Tenora Armor, while a Newman with the same levels lacks the Defense to equip 8* Tenora and has to settle for either Yohmei or GRM, or a weaker Tenora.

Alot of you guys are stereotyping against the Guntecher's damage capabilities without having seen either a Cast or a Beast use the class. Heck, some of you guys commenting in this thread, haven't even played a Guntecher period, or at least you don't list one alongside the other toons in your sigs. I run a Beast Guntecher, and I'm speaking from experience here, and I am simply saying that the high ATP completely transforms the Class.


Sorry if I offended, I meant only to illustrate why newmans are a good choice for GT.

In answer your question:
What exactly Solomon do you consider to be the 'proper' wands?

GT can equip A ranks wands. Any race unable to equip A ranks wands (up to 9*)at a reasonable character/class level is a less perfect fit. By reasonable let's say 60/10? That seems high to me, but I'm willing use that as a baseline.

Resta may be the only tech most GTs use that feeds off of TAP. That being said, healing for 150 (monomate healing), is not helpful at upper levels. Heck, healing for 250 is not that helpful. if you can heal for 500 (dimate), that's what I would consider a useful Resta. So yes, TAP is important.

Beast ATA is fine, not spectaular, but fine. Then newman ATP is fine. Not spectacular, but fine. either way, base ATP is not really a factor in ranged weapon damage. Take the guntecher stable the crossbow: a 9* cross bow has 297 ATP. Compare this with many hunter weapons...I'll pick spear: 676 ATP (more than double)! So when you take GT's lower class ATP, and couple it with lower weapon ATP, you can see that damage is about applying SEs.

Now...CAN a GT be configured to maximize damage for regular shots? of course they can! I'm not saying it cannot be done, just commenting on who best fills the default role.

Late note: many of you have commented that Beast ATA as a fortefighter is terrible. That figher types draw zeroes (miss a lot). note that I also ay a Cast Ranger (who is most likely going to become a GT), who is low level, but who also draws her share of zeros.

Again, sorry to cause a stir. I am not saying that beast/cast cannot be good Gunteckers, I'm saying that the role more naturally favors humans/newmans as a result of thier job bonuses, and EVP, TP, and MST

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-15 12:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Sorry if I offended, I meant only to illustrate why newmans are a good choice for GT.

In answer your question:
What exactly Solomon do you consider to be the 'proper' wands?

GT can equip A ranks wands. Any race unable to equip A ranks wands (up to 9*)at a reasonable character/class level is a less perfect fit. By reasonable let's say 60/10? That seems high to me, but I'm willing use that as a baseline.

Resta may be the only tech most GTs use that feeds off of TAP. That being said, healing for 150 (monomate healing), is not helpful at upper levels. Heck, healing for 250 is not that helpful. if you can heal for 500 (dimate), that's what I would consider a useful Resta. So yes, TAP is important.

Beast ATA is fine, not spectaular, but fine. Then newman ATP is fine. Not spectacular, but fine. either way, base ATP is not really a factor in ranged weapon damage. Take the guntecher stable the crossbow: a 9* cross bow has 297 ATP. Compare this with many hunter weapons...I'll pick spear: 676 ATP (more than double)! So when you take GT's lower class ATP, and couple it with lower weapon ATP, you can see that damage is about applying SEs.

Now...CAN a GT be configured to maximize damage for regular shots? of course they can! I'm not saying it cannot be done, just commenting on who best fills the default role.

Late note: many of you have commented that Beast ATA as a fortefighter is terrible. That figher types draw zeroes (miss a lot). note that I also ay a Cast Ranger (who is most likely going to become a GT), who is low level, but who also draws her share of zeros.

Again, sorry to cause a stir. I am not saying that beast/cast cannot be good Gunteckers, I'm saying that the role more naturally favors humans/newmans as a result of thier job bonuses, and EVP, TP, and MST


Nah you didn't offend me. I'm just argumentative, sorry. I think it is certainly true that a Newman has the advantage of being able to put out a good Resta early on, but I'd like to point out that the Resta on the Casts and Beasts does catch up. Eventually a Beast will be able to reach a level at which they too can equip the 9*, heck I only need 2 or 3 more levels until I can equip 7*. But the whole A Rank wand thing is irrevalent, consider that +10 grinded 9*s are only 36 TP ahead of a +10 grinded 6* tenora, in use that is a negligible difference of maybe 5 or 6 HP. What this leaves the Newmans with is about 163 raw TP difference between them and a Beast with both of them at Level 70/10, the difference between them is even less the lower their levels . We're talking 120-150 more HP a Heal. That is an advantage sure, but not a very pronounced one, even a Newman Guntecher can't serve as a reliable healer in the harder missions.

Also when comparing the Crossbow to a Melee weapon keep in mind that it does shoot 3 bullets in a single shot at lvl 21+ and that these shots do stack against a single opponent. So if you're going to compare ATP a better comparison would be 297x3 (891) vs 676. Also a 21+ Crossbow Bullet carries a %15 Elemental boost per shot (45% total). I don't have much experience comparing firing rates on guns to attack speeds on spears but I've seen em side by side and the Crossbow shoots about as oftend as a spear hits (without a PA). So, as you can see the Crossbow is a very worthy contender when it comes to damage per second. If Melee PAs do come into the equation, however, then I will admit that melee unequivocably wins out. But in it's own right the Guntechers damage is very good, and certainly the highest among all ranged attackers.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-15 12:48 ]</font>

[iono]

On 2007-02-15 09:58, Phlamingtoad wrote:
I wish beasts and CASTS would stop using the "but if i grind the wand to +10 it will be the same as a 9* wand, the same that newmans can use!"

You have to realize newmans will be grinding those 9* wands to +10 as well, you're still just as far behind.

Add to that, that higher level wands will probably add more TP per grind than a lower one



I don't mind that a newman will be able to heal for more than me. I'm not going to argue that away because really that's the only thing newmans have going for them, at all. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif; Well other than being better at a low level. Beasts aren't really the best though. It all just depends on what you want from a GT. If all you care about is being a heal bot who puts out SE4, by all means just tote rifles and wands on a newman.

Though if you really want to argue heals, humans have very much better stats than newmans. They can use 9* wands ~and~ deal decent damage. The only major thing a CAST or Beast has over a human is their SUVs, nanoblasts and a slightly higher ATP. Damage is my favorite role with GT (I'll play status effects, heals, debuffs, etc when necessary) so the Beast race suits me well. I like outdamaging most of the hunters and forces in my parties.

If you want to be purely supportive though, I would've thought a Fortetecher with a bow would have made a better choice. They get SE4, their heals are second to none, their buffs aren't weaker than just using an item, and their debuffs are much easier to work with. They've even got massive AoE SE3 ice going on which blinds everyone!

[Phlamingtoad]

I'm not trying to say any race is better than any other either, but it bothers me when people say things like "beast is better than newman because of blahblah or CAST is better than beast because...."

Really it seems to come down to two issues, ATP and TP

Who knows, maybe there will be kubara 9* wands that grind to have amazing stats that Beasts and CASTS won't be able to equip until level 100? That is a downfall

Of COURSE the lesser ATP of the newman is a downfall, there is no arguing, but that is balanced with good/great ATA and fantastic TP can make up for it- depends on your game play

If you want a more damaging GT, go Beast, more accurate? go CAST more TP/support? go newman

more... bland? Human http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Basically what i'm trying to say is we should stop arguing about what is better than what, because that is all relative. We should be discussing how to play the respective races in the given class better!

[SolomonGrundy]

Also when comparing the Crossbow to a Melee weapon keep in mind that it does shoot 3 bullets in a single shot at lvl 21+ and that these shots do stack against a single opponent. So if you're going to compare ATP a better comparison would be 297x3 (891) vs 676.

This comparison assumes bullet arts are used. If you are using a bullet art, you would have to multiply the Spears ATA by the number if hits in it's 1st combo, and
damage modifier at level 21+


Also a 21+ Crossbow Bullet carries a %15 Elemental boost per shot (45% total). I don't have much experience comparing firing rates on guns to attack speeds on spears but I've seen em side by side and the Crossbow shoots about as oftend as a spear hits (without a PA).

Ahh, but melee weapons can be found wuth 50% element, even without any PA used http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif


So, as you can see the Crossbow is a very worthy contender when it comes to damage per second.

I agree, crossbow is a fine weapon. I wish I had even 1 ;-p


If Melee PAs do come into the equation, however, then I will admit that melee unequivocably wins out. But in it's own right the Guntechers damage is very good, and certainly the highest among all ranged attackers.

I agree with the first part, but I struggle with the second. If you ForteGunner ATP is more than 10% higher than GT ATP, so if efect, they always have guntecker-level shifta on AND they can use the agatride item.

GTs can use debuff, but that does take time...

Oh, and I do thank you for letting me know you are not offended. Sometimes things get heated in discussion forums, and I am just here to engage in a little friendly discussion.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[iono]

On 2007-02-15 22:06, SolomonGrundy wrote:

I agree with the first part, but I struggle with the second. If you ForteGunner ATP is more than 10% higher than GT ATP, so if efect, they always have guntecker-level shifta on AND they can use the agatride item.



ATP isn't the whole story. Forte and GT have different weapon selections. For long range damage, fans will generally (generally) outdamage any of the other guns.

Forte has a big advantage against dragon bosses because of the Grenade Laucnher, yet GT also has a big advantage against any given boss because Bows ignore defense. While a fG has to aim or time the shot to match the boss's movements, a GT can simply shoot any part of a lot of bosses and that saves a lot of time.

Then of course is bow versus rifle. Basically, GT has access to a high damage, highly accurate SE4 gun that ~doesn't~ require a weak defensive armor like Phantom Line to excel at. FG is stuck with Rifle.

As far as the future goes, GT actually has the better damage per second S rank weapons. Twin Guns and Crossbows are pretty well established to outdamage shotguns and rifles.

Heck, GT actually has 1 more ranged weapon than FG.

Soooo basically Sega threw us a little curve with that. FG has more ATP, but GT has better overall weapons for dealing damage. Of course a newman GT isn't going to put out more than an equally geared, equally skilled up CAST FG, but GTs absolutely compete with a FG for damage output. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I don't want to sound too abrasive here but it doesn't even look like you've done more with GT than check it out in theory. I was really surprised myself when I found out how well GT was able to compete in dps. I do have levels in fortegunner too. D:

If you want to say GT is bad for damage compared to FG, don't turn around and say newman damage compares to beast. The ATP gaps are very, very similar.

[Alisha]

Dymalos and iono are are winning the thread keep rocking on. i said this to a friend on msn but it sounds like newmans thinking they are GREAT guntechers are grasping at straws wanting to be the best at something besides Ft. more than have the types need atp for damage and yours sucks get over it.

[SolomonGrundy]

If you want to say GT is bad for damage compared to FG, don't turn around and say newman damage compares to beast. The ATP gaps are very, very similar.

I said specifically that GTs damage tends to come from DOTs, rather than Damage per shot. I stick by that. Hunters (figunner, fortefighter), will outdamage a GT.

For those who are so hung up on Beast ATP. At 60/10 male beast ATP is 123 higher than Newman ATP. Thats 25 damage per shot (so 50 for dual handguns, 125 for 21+ shotgun, etc). I am willing to bet though, that beasts will draw more "0"s than a newman as there is an 80+ ATA difference at that same level.

Is Beast Guntecker playable? Of course! Do they fit the default role of the GT? I'd still have to say no.

[Dymalos]

Listen you guys keep touting that TP is a benefit for Newmans. And I keep point out that the only 'support' technique that is effected by TP is Resta, which quite frankly even a Cast can use to heal an excess of 500 HP. TP is not at all a strong point for GT, even at Level 10 GT you're only recieving 44% of your Racial TP. What I'm trying to say, is that Newman TP does not equal better support in any way, shape or form other than a Resta that is better by 120-150 HP. Now the question is, does a Mission rely more on the Healing than on the Damage? I think the answer is obvious, more damage inflicted on monsters equals quicker kills, which leads to less damage inflicted on the players and faster mission completion.

Also on ATP, the gap between Newmans and Beasts only increases as they both gain levels. At 70/10 it is 130 between females. Also it is not only 25 extra damage, the extra ATP is enhanced by not only the damage bonus on the Bullets, but also the Elemental Percentage Boost, as well as the extra 10/20% from a Buff. In practice, I do about 40-50 points more damage than a Newman Guntecher of equal level and that means alot when you're getting in multiple hits in a minute. Also, while Fortegunners do have a higher base ATP, their weapon selection does not contain guns which lend themselves to high damage output. Their best gun for damage is the Shotgun, and as things stand it ranks behind the Crossbow and Cards, mostly due to its slow rate of fire, but it has other drawbacks such as no strafing, which in a close range gun is a quite a hindrance to regular use.

Solomon, I agree that Melees are the best DPS, but that doesn't mean that a Guntecher doesn't come close. About that ATA, I would take that bet, and I would pony up real cash. The only time I personally notice more 0's compared to my real life Cast Fortegunner (67/7) friend is when I'm using a Machinegun, and we've even played side by side in the same room. Honestly Solomon, I think you're an intelligent person, but you're just coming into this thread and arguing without much experience regarding Guntechers whatsoever. The main thing that you keep repeating and that I take issue with is that you have a misconception of the 'default' role of a Guntecher.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-16 01:47 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-15 22:39, iono wrote:

ATP isn't the whole story. Forte and GT have different weapon selections. For long range damage, fans will generally (generally) outdamage any of the other guns.

Forte has a big advantage against dragon bosses because of the Grenade Laucnher, yet GT also has a big advantage against any given boss because Bows ignore defense. While a fG has to aim or time the shot to match the boss's movements, a GT can simply shoot any part of a lot of bosses and that saves a lot of time.

Then of course is bow versus rifle. Basically, GT has access to a high damage, highly accurate SE4 gun that ~doesn't~ require a weak defensive armor like Phantom Line to excel at. FG is stuck with Rifle.

As far as the future goes, GT actually has the better damage per second S rank weapons. Twin Guns and Crossbows are pretty well established to outdamage shotguns and rifles.

Heck, GT actually has 1 more ranged weapon than FG.

Soooo basically Sega threw us a little curve with that. FG has more ATP, but GT has better overall weapons for dealing damage. Of course a newman GT isn't going to put out more than an equally geared, equally skilled up CAST FG, but GTs absolutely compete with a FG for damage output. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I don't want to sound too abrasive here but it doesn't even look like you've done more with GT than check it out in theory. I was really surprised myself when I found out how well GT was able to compete in dps. I do have levels in fortegunner too. D:

If you want to say GT is bad for damage compared to FG, don't turn around and say newman damage compares to beast. The ATP gaps are very, very similar.



Hey iono, as I've stated before I mainly duo with my Fortegunner friend, and while he does dish out alot of damage on De Ragan and Zoal Goug, I'm still able to stay on par with him on De Ragan by using my lvl 30 Yak Riga on his head and neck area. His Gur Napam has a really slow rate of fire, so I get in almost 2 shots by the time he shoots once. I stay pretty competitive on Zoal Goug as well by aiming my Jusei-shiki at his head. On De Ragnus it's not even a close contest. De Ragnus has so much defense that the Bow really shines there. I just spend the mission halfway across the room from him and pluck away. I'd probably do alot more damage to him if he wasn't neutral, but hey that's where the highly damaging Ultimate Bow PA comes in.

[iono]

I almost always prefer a bow on bosses but I can see why you'd use fans. I know what you mean about De Ragnus because I had to duo it once with a fortetecher. The fT ended up dying so much she ran out of scapes and I had to keep running up to use a Moon X. I was just standing off plinking it for 400 without even having to aim. It did hit me for 1500 a lot though so basically anything other than a beast or CAST probably would of been in the out of scapes side of things. D:

Solomon, you're throwing out a predetermined role in your own mind's eye for what GT is supposed to be for. People proposed that GT is supposed to be purely supportive because they couldn't see why GT could be anything else. You're also coming full circle by bringing the ATA argument into this. ATA has been discussed already. If your vision of an ideal GT is one who can heal slave you and disable the monsters so you can happily wail on it with your Fortefighter, more power to you. That's not my cup of tea though.

The whole fun part about the class (to me of course!) is that more than any other class, we can do basically everything. There doesn't have to be an ideal race but for crying out loud, when I check forums I always see "beast sucks at rangers!" and I got sick of it so I signed up for the forums. The whole reason I'm positing is to dissuade that stupid idea people have.

EDIT: I just got 2 of my wands to +10 today! So I was like ok let's see how much I can heal for. I grabbed a cheapy Sta/Force from the npc, used a Megistaride and my heal ranged from 515 to 545. ^^ The +10 6* GRM wands I have are 540 TP, which is almost exactly the same as the 9* wand (541). Does Yamata-line boost TP more than Te-senba? I don't really know much about those things and I've been making Crimson Lines because I have a CAST fF to gear up. Or what armors adds the most TP? Or am I really being dumb and no armors boost TP.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-02-16 18:55 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

hey guys, before you pass judgment on me, perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt.

I did not say GTs could not deal damage. I did not say Beasts cold not be GTs.

I DID say that Beasts and Casts cannot equip a rank wands at any reasonable level. (I used 60/10). There is no arguing this point. I did also point out that hunter weapons eclipse ranger weapons for DPS. This point you can argue.

That is all. I have no preconcieved notions about the class except to say that rangers are not hunters, and if a job is ABLE to use A rank weapons, then those races able to use them at a reasonable level fit the class best.

sheesh.

[iono]

On 2007-02-16 01:09, SolomonGrundy wrote:
[quote]
Is Beast Guntecker playable? Of course! Do they fit the default role of the GT? I'd still have to say no.


^ That is one example of when you gave a preconceived notion. "default role of the GT"? What is that if not a preconception?

[tei]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have brought race into the discussion.. It was my mistake, and I didn't mean to start a debate...

Because all the stats and percentages and what-not seem to be stored server side and completely changable by Sega, and 70/10 seems like a rather small level for both base and type, I have no doubt that will change... Then Beasts could equip the high level wands, maybe Newmans at Type level 20 will get a 40-50% ATP boost with GT as one of their favoured classes.. Even more, since they've already proven that they don't have any problem with changing weapon and PA accuracies and stats, Crossbows could become weaker, or twin handguns could become stronger (please please please Sega! :3), who knows what Sega will do? What I'm trying to get at is just about anything argued in this thread could become obsolete within weeks or months... I don't think it's worth getting worked up over, or passing 'judgement', getting a bad taste for, or... whatever on any other person or their character and ideas. Especially since it was all because of a near-flamebait (I realize that now >_<) question from a newb...

You all seem like very experienced and mature players, moreso than I could ever be. Which is why it's hard to see this which went from helpful discussion quickly degrade into something not so helpful... So forgive me if I'm being naïve or blowing this out of proportion (which I might be, I'm quite sleepy at the moment and had a rather long week http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif), but I really do feel that if you enjoy your characters (and you must, for how knowledgeable and passionate you all are on them), you should be secure in your choice of race and type to not be bothered by the opinions by other players or even the masses on how your character is 'suppose' to perform. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif Or care much about how your character stacks up to other players' choices, since... of course.. this is a game. If you worry too much about stats and numbers and levels and... optimization, instead of picking what you want for out of enjoyment... you might as well spend your free time working a second job instead of gaming, right?

Please no one take any of that offensively, I didn't mean it that way or to target anyone in specific or anything... I just don't want to see anyone's opinions get attacked, and hoping I'm not making things worse >_<

On a lighter note, congratulations on getting your wands to +10 iono! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I've been trying for the last four days, but the best I could get my wands up to without breaking has been 8 >_<

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-16 21:29, iono wrote:

On 2007-02-16 01:09, SolomonGrundy wrote:
[quote]
Is Beast Guntecker playable? Of course! Do they fit the default role of the GT? I'd still have to say no.


^ That is one example of when you gave a preconceived notion. "default role of the GT"? What is that if not a preconception?



default role: being able to USE the equipment available to the class (wands, wands, 1,000 times wands)

[imfanboy]

On 2007-02-16 22:12, tei wrote:
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have brought race into the discussion.. It was my mistake, and I didn't mean to start a debate...


Thanks for apologizing.


I should have tromped on this debate a while ago, but honestly I wasn't paying any attention to this thread.

But right at the start of the very first post I said,


NOTE: This is NOT about what race makes the 'best' guntecher, or anything like that. One of the best things about the PSU system is that racial differences are negligible for the most part; not like some other games where a specific race/class combo WAS gimped and unusable.

Racial differences ARE negligible. There are plenty of very, very popular MMORPGs out there where picking a beast ranger WOULD be gimped, picking a force of any kind other than newman WOULD be gimped, etcetera, etcetera... the fact that it's not is a testament to how well ST designed this game.

I just synthed a 9* crossbow and got the bullets up to 22. Without any /power units, I deal about 210-220 damage to elemental-weak enemies after self buff/debuff; with a stella/power S I deal 230-240 - Bel Pannons in HIVE S was the measure I took. Since someone earlier mentioned their crossbow on a beastfemme does 300 a bullet (presumably with no ATP-increasing gear), that means I'm losing 210 damage per shot compared to a beastfemme GT of a higher level than me.

However, I know that a human female guntecher of the same level as I am only manages to cure 300-350 with her resta - can't imagine how the beast GT would be able to do more than that. I'll swap some damage for being able to resta for 200-250 more, thanks.

(Hell, I just went through a De Ragnus S run where my guntecher WAS the main support - damn fortetecher was too impressed by the whizbangs and shiney spells to cast the buffs/debuffs or even RESTA - he ran through 8scapes in that run by my count. <_<)

In the end, I don't feel gimped in the slightest for doing less damage, and it's just fine for you to not feel gimped for healing for less. If we all played carbon copies of each other we'd have - well, we'd have Uni 2 with all the cast male figunners who have 8 Crea Doubles running around, is what we'd have.


I think the main reason people get so defensive about race is because they want their chosen race to HAVE everything, and when they realize that there is no perfect option they get (for lack of a nicer term) jealous of what their character does NOT have. I know I wish Steyr could dish out enough damage to solo easily in S-rank as a GT. But I can accept that in the spirit of class balance.

Besides, I like forteteching too, once in a while. ^-^

[Jey]

As human male Lv67 GT4 I was Resta'ing sans Retier for 480s with my W'gacroza+10s, 440s with my Cometara o_O The female GT you partied with must have been using like... Wandras or something.

As for A-rank wands... big deal... just carry more wands unless you really like the A-rank graphic, but at least use the best for what base TP you've got lol. I can't imagine equipping the guns you want to be a serious issue as ranged weapons generally have really low ATA requirements and Guntecher already gets great ATA growth (i.e. 160% base at GT10, fG is 200% and fG already have more ATA than they can shake a stick at).

I mean okkkkk the base ATP difference between Beast and Newmans at lv70 is like 150ish, plus Newmans get the 3% hybrid job bonus for no reason other than to make humans feel less special. it's not that big of a deal except that Newmans just need to shoot a few more times to make up the damage difference. It's not as if guns have really cramped PP 9_9

Just don't make my poor GT main-heal a HIVE S run and I think I'm good.

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-16 23:41, SolomonGrundy wrote:
default role: being able to USE the equipment available to the class (wands, wands, 1,000 times wands)



Your point is well taken, but I don't know how often I'm going to be able to repeat this single counterpoint. The only thing the quality (i.e. Tech) of a wand determines for a Guntecher is the amount that Resta heals. Which is fine, and a decent thing to improve, but please, consider the following stats which directly compare B Rank to A Rank:

W'gacros the Tenora Works 6* B Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 576 Tech.

Majimra the Yohmei 9* A Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 612 Tech.

As you can see, the difference between the 6* wand and the absolute highest level wand that a Guntecher can equip is 36 Tech, in use this translates to maybe 5 or 6 more HPs healed. Consider that the 6* W'gacros is readily available at NPC shops for 35,000 Meseta or less from a Player shop and can already be grinded, the 9* will retail for 250,000 Meseta and is currently available in player shops for that amount. A Rank is not yet grindable on the U.S. servers, but still would you rather grind a single Majimra to +10 or multiple W'gacros to +10 for the same money? So what I've been trying to get across is that you're placing way too much emphasis on A Rank wands.

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-17 02:31, imfanboy wrote:

On 2007-02-16 22:12, tei wrote:
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have brought race into the discussion.. It was my mistake, and I didn't mean to start a debate...


Thanks for apologizing.


I should have tromped on this debate a while ago, but honestly I wasn't paying any attention to this thread.

But right at the start of the very first post I said,


NOTE: This is NOT about what race makes the 'best' guntecher, or anything like that. One of the best things about the PSU system is that racial differences are negligible for the most part; not like some other games where a specific race/class combo WAS gimped and unusable.

Racial differences ARE negligible. There are plenty of very, very popular MMORPGs out there where picking a beast ranger WOULD be gimped, picking a force of any kind other than newman WOULD be gimped, etcetera, etcetera... the fact that it's not is a testament to how well ST designed this game.

I just synthed a 9* crossbow and got the bullets up to 22. Without any /power units, I deal about 210-220 damage to elemental-weak enemies after self buff/debuff; with a stella/power S I deal 230-240 - Bel Pannons in HIVE S was the measure I took. Since someone earlier mentioned their crossbow on a beastfemme does 300 a bullet (presumably with no ATP-increasing gear), that means I'm losing 210 damage per shot compared to a beastfemme GT of a higher level than me.

However, I know that a human female guntecher of the same level as I am only manages to cure 300-350 with her resta - can't imagine how the beast GT would be able to do more than that. I'll swap some damage for being able to resta for 200-250 more, thanks.

(Hell, I just went through a De Ragnus S run where my guntecher WAS the main support - damn fortetecher was too impressed by the whizbangs and shiney spells to cast the buffs/debuffs or even RESTA - he ran through 8scapes in that run by my count. <_<)

In the end, I don't feel gimped in the slightest for doing less damage, and it's just fine for you to not feel gimped for healing for less. If we all played carbon copies of each other we'd have - well, we'd have Uni 2 with all the cast male figunners who have 8 Crea Doubles running around, is what we'd have.


I think the main reason people get so defensive about race is because they want their chosen race to HAVE everything, and when they realize that there is no perfect option they get (for lack of a nicer term) jealous of what their character does NOT have. I know I wish Steyr could dish out enough damage to solo easily in S-rank as a GT. But I can accept that in the spirit of class balance.

Besides, I like forteteching too, once in a while. ^-^



See, it's fine to put aside race when making and discussing Guntecher like this, but at the same time you're misrepresenting what a 'Beastfemme' or indeed any race other than Newman is capable of healing. I am personally able to heal 420ish HP as a 70/10 Beast Female, and that is without Retier because I don't even have it. Heck, I'm sure if I was dedicated to increasing that amount I could easily do 600ish with a decent headslot like Sori / Tech Charge. I'm not so much bringing up race, as I am simply stating that TP isn't as mechanically important as people keep insisting, especially not in the role of support.

[iono]

On 2007-02-16 23:41, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-02-16 21:29, iono wrote:

On 2007-02-16 01:09, SolomonGrundy wrote:
[quote]
Is Beast Guntecker playable? Of course! Do they fit the default role of the GT? I'd still have to say no.


^ That is one example of when you gave a preconceived notion. "default role of the GT"? What is that if not a preconception?



default role: being able to USE the equipment available to the class (wands, wands, 1,000 times wands)



Hey, I can see it may not be intentional, but that kinda was still a predetermined role set out by not just you, but basically everyone. I mean we only get level 10 techs and our range with resta is horrible no matter how much we heal for. I think it is a terrible mistake to assume GT was supposed to be a healer like that. I mean we get level 10 striking PAs and 2 different striking weapons with really nice PAS* even at level 1, but no one considers a GT to be a melee class. Why should we be labeled a healer?

It would've probably been just fine to assume GT was a purely supportive class and leave it to the highest ATA/TP race, but what we didn't expect was level 21+ bullets to make guns so darn strong. It's such a big jump in damage output that we're seeing debates like this happen more and more often. People in general are slowly coming around to the idea that even in PSU, a ranger can deal very nice damage.

If it ever seemed like I was trying to make beast seem the best at GT, I'm sorry. I'm trying not to while still getting my point across and it's harder than it seems. >.< My name is not Laia Martinez!! But people learned GT to be one thing and it's always hard to get people to latch on to change.

[juno-6]

On 2007-02-15 01:22, Dymalos wrote:
In my opinion, the better Resta (we're talking 120-180 more hp) is a poor trade off for the lost ATP.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-15 01:25 ]</font>


That's what it really comes down to, Resta or ATP.
The Cast and Beast GT playstyle favors damage, while Newman and Human favor healing the party/themselves a bit more. In my opinion and obviously the opinion of Newman and Human GT's, Dymalos, the better Resta is a good trade off for the lost ATP.

I'm not discrediting GT as a DPS class, because Beasts/Casts really do make it work. But you also shouldn't discredit support GT's. The small Resta does matter in many situations and with all the tools a GT gets, we really can make a party noticeably better/efficient when we're dedicating oursleves to the needs of the whole team.

Point: Beasts/Casts GT's are good Damage Dealers and Human/Newman GT's are good Support and it all depends on your taste which is funner/ better (for yourself anyways).

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-17 15:31, juno-6 wrote:

Point: Beasts/Casts GT's are good Damage Dealers and Human/Newman GT's are good Support and it all depends on your taste which is funner/ better (for yourself anyways).



I admire the spirit of cooperation you're trying to engender with your post. But I take issue with this particular part, as it seems to imply that Beasts/Casts are incapable of playing 'good' support. In reality, they are capable of pratically everything that the Newmans or Humans can do in that respect. I doubt that the threshold between simple support and good support can be distilled into a matter of an extra 100-150 HPs each heal.

I do play all of the S Rank, I've never really run into a situation where my Resta either made or broke the mission rank. Heck, in dicey situations I am not afraid to run in and use a Star Atomizer (I've got them up to my ears), and not even a Newearl 70/10 Fortetecher's Resta 30 from a Halarod can beat that kind of speed or even healing potential for that matter. Granted, it may be different for Newman GTs and I'd like to hear about these experiences.

[Astarin]

All this talk about Wand Tech power is interesting. But there's more to higher level Wands than just Tech power, y'know.


On 2007-02-17 03:50, Dymalos wrote:

W'gacros the Tenora Works 6* B Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 576 Tech.

Majimra the Yohmei 9* A Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 612 Tech.



Any idea what the PP stat is for each of those weapons? Yeah, the Majimra will heal for about the same as the W'gacros, but if it has twice as much PP, I'll take the Majimra, thanks.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-18 10:46, Astarin wrote:
All this talk about Wand Tech power is interesting. But there's more to higher level Wands than just Tech power, y'know.


On 2007-02-17 03:50, Dymalos wrote:

W'gacros the Tenora Works 6* B Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 576 Tech.

Majimra the Yohmei 9* A Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 612 Tech.

Here is a better number.
W'gacros TP requirement: 210

Neither Beast nor Cast will be using this wand, even at 60/10 (while both Human and Newman can).




Any idea what the PP stat is for each of those weapons? Yeah, the Majimra will heal for about the same as the W'gacros, but if it has twice as much PP, I'll take the Majimra, thanks.



Here is a better number.
W'gacros TP requirement: 210

Neither Beast nor Cast will be using this wand, even at 60/10 (while both Human and Newman can).

Female beast TP @ 60/10: 168
Female cast @ 60/10: 158

The requirement for the 5*
GRM wand is 169 (eeeevil sega, just evil).

So, these two races can use 4* wands, compared to 8*/9* wands for Humans/Newmans at 60/10

And I don't care how much or little I know about playing a GT, I know that getting to 60/10 is neither fast for easy.

[EphekZ]

Point: Beasts/Casts GT's are good Damage Dealers and Human/Newman GT's are good Support and it all depends on your taste which is funner/ better (for yourself anyways).



I find it interesting that one would think that humans can't do good damage, and are just there for support. also it's "more fun" not "funner"

[iono]

I can attest the humans most definitely do compare to CASTs in ATP and therefore damage. o.o It's just newman on the support boat.

Imo if you went with specialization, split it 3 ways - status effects, damage and heals. All 4 races are fully capable of every role eventually, but there are races that specifically shine in 1 area. I'm basing this on what they take the longest to mature into. For instance, a level 20 CAST GT is not going to be too great at heals, but a level 70 can manage it pretty well. Just because it says one thing is worst for the race, DOES NOT MEAN IT CAN'T DO IT /caps just so we're clear :P
Beast
1. damage
2. status effects
3. heals
CAST
1. status effects
2. damage
3. heals
Human
I'm not even sure, but I want to say their ATA takes longer to get up there so status effects would be #3, but then I know people might take offense to that. D: Humans are balanced and therefore not specialized, or that's everyone says!
Newman
1. heals
2. status effects
3. damage

[juno-6]

On 2007-02-18 15:21, EphekZ wrote:



Point: Beasts/Casts GT's are good Damage Dealers and Human/Newman GT's are good Support and it all depends on your taste which is funner/ better (for yourself anyways).



I find it interesting that one would think that humans can't do good damage, and are just there for support. also it's "more fun" not "funner"



if a cast or beast had the same weapon/same units/same job/same bullet lvl or weapon then the beast/cast would always out damage them. even a newman GT could focus on just DPS if they wanted to because of the way this game was designed, but some races obviously lean towards certain roles.

as for the fun comment, im not illiterate, i knew what i was doing. also, i like to sometimes start my sentences without capitals or put smiley faces at the end instead of a period:P im not here to advance my writing or grammar, so don't feel obliged to correct me in the future - im just here to talk about video games:|suifhvnve gregnkf erkfn

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-18 10:46, Astarin wrote:
All this talk about Wand Tech power is interesting. But there's more to higher level Wands than just Tech power, y'know.


On 2007-02-17 03:50, Dymalos wrote:

W'gacros the Tenora Works 6* B Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 576 Tech.

Majimra the Yohmei 9* A Rank Wand at +10 Grinds has 612 Tech.



Any idea what the PP stat is for each of those weapons? Yeah, the Majimra will heal for about the same as the W'gacros, but if it has twice as much PP, I'll take the Majimra, thanks.



That is a somewhat trite argument considering that for the price of a Majimra I could easily purchase over 10 W'gacros. That'd be more than enough PP wouldn't you say? But if you're in PS2/PC maybe cost wouldn't matter, as things stand I'm on Xbox 360 so cost efficiency is an issue.


On 2007-02-18 18:36, iono wrote

CAST
1. status effects
2. damage
3. heals
Human
I'm not even sure, but I want to say their ATA takes longer to get up there so status effects would be #3, but then I know people might take offense to that. D: Humans are balanced and therefore not specialized, or that's everyone says!



ATA doesn't have anything to do with S.E application rate, well at least not beyond the simple fact that you can't really apply status effects on a miss. The supposed compelling evidence that people keep citing has about the same basis in scientific method as most people's ancedotal 'evidence' supporting Feng Shui for improved item drops.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-19 05:36 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-18 11:30, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Here is a better number.
W'gacros TP requirement: 210

Neither Beast nor Cast will be using this wand, even at 60/10 (while both Human and Newman can).

Female beast TP @ 60/10: 168
Female cast @ 60/10: 158

The requirement for the 5*
GRM wand is 169 (eeeevil sega, just evil).

So, these two races can use 4* wands, compared to 8*/9* wands for Humans/Newmans at 60/10

And I don't care how much or little I know about playing a GT, I know that getting to 60/10 is neither fast for easy.



Alright, sure Newmans are able to heal higher amounts of HP earlier than either Beast, Humans, or Casts. I've never said otherwise. What I have said is that the other races do catch up, so much so that at around 70/10 for Beasts and Humans and possibly 80/10 for Casts the advantage that Newmans possess in the healing department does not exceed 100-120 HPs.

If you're allowed to arbitrarily cap a character's level for the purposes of your side of your argument then I see no point in continuing to argue with you. I am already 70/10 and I can guarantee you that I will eventually be 80/10. If you're here solely to argue the casual side of this game then I don't see why you'd care about min/maxing in the first place.

You are indeed beginning to annoy me, and only because you're absolutely hung up on the 9* Wands. What you don't seem to understand is that at the moment 9* is crap, simply because it can't be grinded. Let's talk about what I am able to use right now as a Beast Female GT 70/10, which is the Crozier (GRM 6*)at +10 it is only 1 point behind the base Tech on a 9* Majimra. This doesn't even have to do with race, even if I were a Newman I would be using multiple Tenora W'gacros 6* at +10 grinds because it just far more economical and is only 36 TP behind +10 9*.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-19 05:57 ]</font>

[iono]

On 2007-02-18 18:36, iono wrote

CAST
1. status effects
2. damage
3. heals
Human
I'm not even sure, but I want to say their ATA takes longer to get up there so status effects would be #3, but then I know people might take offense to that. D: Humans are balanced and therefore not specialized, or that's everyone says!



ATA doesn't have anything to do with S.E application rate, well at least not beyond the simple fact that you can't really apply status effects on a miss. The supposed compelling evidence that people keep citing has about the same basis in scientific method as most people's ancedotal 'evidence' supporting Feng Shui for improved item drops.




It does have a lot to do with SE application rate. Like I said, this is a display of when they mature into each role. 1 being the soonest and 3 being the latest. At the least a CAST can equip any given gun much sooner and therefore hit more accurately at a low level, therefore proving better at applying status effects earlier. Try not to lose perspective just because you're 70 - this thread was meant to be a guide on Guntecher and not a debate. For someone making a character, they will want to consider this!

By the time a character is level 70, they can play any of the 3 roles well enough. Yeah a beast is just fine at applying statuses, but even a remotely lower accuracy means the other races are slightly better at it. It's not a big deal to admit that - it's only a slight difference. With CAST versus beast, even the ATP is only a little difference (well actually it seems like it might be until you factor in gun ATP as well).

Ah yeah, the reason why I put beast as damage above others, in case that's questionable, is nanoblast. ^^ Even if a beast is the slowest to be able to equip the best guns, they still tear it up with that. :3

Well if you really do disagree about having a slightly lower ATA leading to a slightly lower chance to land a status effect, I can show you the math but I figure it's boring and it should be common sense. Just don't get pissy, it's not a big difference and I haven't seen anyone say it was so far. I could've missed it though. >.<

With the stuff we have available right now (+10 tenora wand versus +0 9* wand), the tenora is a lot less economical but more powerful. It usually costs well over 1m meseta to make a +10 6* weapon (for each of mine, I spent 2.1m + whatever the grinders costed). On average 9* wand won't cost you over 400k if you synth it yourself (49% chance, about 200k? a try at npc prices). Your PP recharge costs aren't going to cover that!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-02-19 13:26 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

Alright sure, but at the moment to beat the base Tech on a 9* Majimra you'd only need +5 6* Tenora. Which is guaranteed to be far cheaper than the 250k you'd need for the Majimra.

About ATA, I do know that ATA indirectly influences S.E. Rate in the manner of which you speak. But that's well within the realm of being statistically insignificant wouldn't you say?

[imfanboy]

I dunno about that - on a 3 luck day, I broke about 8 B-rank spears trying to get one up to +5- and I was using B+6s. 35k x 8 = 280k, not counting the cost of grinders. <_<


Seriously Dymalos. Every 10 points of ATP only adds something like 5 damage - sure, if your ATP is 120 higher than me that means you're dealing 60 more damage (which adds up with a shotgun or crossbow style weapon, and with the element % multiplier too) but all I have to do is fire on average twice or three times more per enemy to make up for that.

If I wanted to get closer to your damage output, I'd go looking for a Solid/Power S (not a bad idea, hmm... wonder if I can con any of my friends into doing Dragon S runs...) because I can sacrifice the ATA to get the extra ATP, just like you could go looking for a decent head slot item to get closer to my resta.


It's all in the realm of stastical insignificance, which you don't seem to like the idea of. Why is that, Dymalos? There is no 'superior' or 'inferior' choice for any race/class combo, except IMHO Newman Protranser, because each race's gain is a loss in another area.


Once the SS rank missions come out I'll probably add an "Addendum: Advanced Gunteching" because sure as hell it'll be a nasty jump for some people. Already I realize how obsolete that ending paragraph is because I can come pretty darn close to the damage output of some of my fortegunner friends with the help of cards, and I wrote it when I was only like... 55/GT5? Something like that. Things change past level 60, for the better too.

[SolomonGrundy]

Alright, sure Newmans are able to heal higher amounts of HP earlier than either Beast, Humans, or Casts. I've never said otherwise. What I have said is that the other races do catch up, so much so that at around 70/10 for Beasts and Humans and possibly 80/10 for Casts the advantage that Newmans possess in the healing department does not exceed 100-120 HPs.

If you're allowed to arbitrarily cap a character's level for the purposes of your side of your argument then I see no point in continuing to argue with you. I am already 70/10 and I can guarantee you that I will eventually be 80/10. If you're here solely to argue the casual side of this game then I don't see why you'd care about min/maxing in the first place.

You are indeed beginning to annoy me, and only because you're absolutely hung up on the 9* Wands. What you don't seem to understand is that at the moment 9* is crap, simply because it can't be grinded. Let's talk about what I am able to use right now as a Beast Female GT 70/10, which is the Crozier (GRM 6*)at +10 it is only 1 point behind the base Tech on a 9* Majimra. This doesn't even have to do with race, even if I were a Newman I would be using multiple Tenora W'gacros 6* at +10 grinds because it just far more economical and is only 36 TP behind +10 9*.



I'm happy you are 70/10. It's quite an achivement, unless you took the Bruce's B route (and even still a very decent achievement on the level 70).

I'm level 55, and I've played the heck out the game (200+ hours). I'm a ForteFighter level 4 almost 5, so what does that tell me?

A "casual" player of this game may never see 60/10. Never mind 70/10. I picked 60/10 being generous. a more reasonable number is 50/5 or someting similar.

I'd like to agree with you on one point. Given a high enough level (80/10, 90/10 - wheveter), all the races will be able to use the same equipments, and so it really will be less of an issue. If you'd like, we could then start arguing about GT using techs for damage at that level (kidding!)

I am only illustrating that 2 of the races must wait until late in the game to even things out on the wand side.

(last note: I hit Ranger 3 with my female cast, and level 16-17. She still draws zeros wit regularity, so I can say ATA still does have a big impact...

[iono]

imfanboy, I use a /Power unit on my Beast GT because I don't feel the need for an accuracy unit. ^^


About ATA, I do know that ATA indirectly influences S.E. Rate in the manner of which you speak. But that's well within the realm of being statistically insignificant wouldn't you say?

At the endgame, yes. As long as we're clear that that little description I gave is for when they grew into each role! I don't know if you actually played a ranger at a lowbie level, but at those levels, every single gun upgrade sees a very nice increase in chance to hit. It's only at a high level where ATA starts to be a diminishing return.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-02-19 23:17 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

I use a /power unit on my GT, when I'm not wearing an Ageha-Senba to enhance my Ageha-kikamis (and because I've got some REALLY good elem % ageha-senbas).

But do you use a /power unit that hits your accuracy, like the Solid/Power S? If you did, would you be regretting it?

I could get by with it - oh, I might have a few problems, but I'd swing it easily. A beast, even a beast GT on the other hand...

And were I doing the Beast GT route, I'd be more interested in a good TP raising unit myself. *shrug* Not many armors have a head and an arm slot together, at least in the A-ranks... Sori-senba comes to mind but there are so many fire enemies that it's like screaming, "Here I am! Hurt me please!"

[iono]

Yamata line. O_o Though I use Crimson Line because I have a CAST alt. If you get the 9* fans, the 8* fan with ageha-senba is pretty obsolete btw.

Since you asked, I wouldn't even use the +60 -20 unit if I were a CAST because I think it's lame. Why do that when you can use a unit with just +50 instead.

[SolomonGrundy]

[b]On 2007-02-19 23:21, imfanboy

And were I doing the Beast GT route, I'd be more interested in a good TP raising unit myself. *shrug* Not many armors have a head and an arm slot together, at least in the A-ranks... Sori-senba comes to mind but there are so many fire enemies that it's like screaming, "Here I am! Hurt me please!"



Sori Senba works very well because it is only SLIGHTLY elementally aligned. I would wear it on Neudiaz, and Moatoob. The only place I would ditch it is Parnum (fire, & lightning enemies) and the hive/linear line, where dark>>slots.

It's tough needing the extra slot as well as the headslot. there are armors with Head, Arm, Body, and armors with Arm, Body Extra, but when you need all 3...

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

I guess as a Cast, I'd give up the arm slot, and wear Force Armor? (is that crazy?)

[imfanboy]

On 2007-02-20 01:18, iono wrote:
Yamata line. O_o Though I use Crimson Line because I have a CAST alt. If you get the 9* fans, the 8* fan with ageha-senba is pretty obsolete btw.

Since you asked, I wouldn't even use the +60 -20 unit if I were a CAST because I think it's lame. Why do that when you can use a unit with just +50 instead.



Mmm, there is that - but I love that whole extra 5 damage that 10 more ATP gives! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif Plus, it's free; I've had it since my first couple of weeks. Something dropped it and I still don't know what.

The only reason to wear A-rank armors at all is if you've got A-rank slot items - otherwise, ALWAYS elemental % > all.

I don't particularly care for synthing 9* guns - the gain isn't enough for me to waste the money. Bad enough that I spent the cash to synth a 9* crossbow just to check on damage comparison with a beast GT's. Mmm, isn't a set bonus better, anyway? Darnit, I wish I could log in to PSU to check it out real quick. <_<

And for Ageha-Senbas, I have a 28% dark, 30% fire, 22% ice, 26% earth, 26% light, and... only 18% lightning, but the nice thing about having a set of armors like that is I can swap back and forth on the fly without having to adjust my slot items. They were cheap and easy to synth, so I made quite a few of 'em. ^-^

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-19 16:47, imfanboy wrote:
I dunno about that - on a 3 luck day, I broke about 8 B-rank spears trying to get one up to +5- and I was using B+6s. 35k x 8 = 280k, not counting the cost of grinders. <_<


Let's be realistic here, while good % B Rank Spears might be costing you 35K, a 6* Wand should run you about 20k if you purchase from player shops. Basically, what I'm saying is that for the price of one Majimra you could attempt to grind 12 or more W'gacros to +5 to get better Tech than the base Majimra. Any extra's that made it to +5 would just serve to bridge the difference in PP between the two weapons. Majimra's suck, W'gacros are a much better investment. Not only can W'gacros currently outdo the Majimra's Tech, they'll remain completely competitive even when Majimra's become grindable. I don't know why you'd be resistant to this particular point, as cheap and effective wands benefit all of us regardless of our race.



Seriously Dymalos. Every 10 points of ATP only adds something like 5 damage - sure, if your ATP is 120 higher than me that means you're dealing 60 more damage (which adds up with a shotgun or crossbow style weapon, and with the element % multiplier too) but all I have to do is fire on average twice or three times more per enemy to make up for that.


When I talk about the benefits of increased ATP I really am focusing on Crossbows and Cards. Not only do they basically multiply the effects of ATP by 3, they also pretty much embody what a Guntecher is all about, great damage in one hand with easy access to support techs on the other. The unit which you mention wouldn't be a bad thing to consider, I might even try to get it myself. I mean it's not like I can't just unequip it when I'm fighting high evasion foes.



Once the SS rank missions come out I'll probably add an "Addendum: Advanced Gunteching" because sure as hell it'll be a nasty jump for some people. Already I realize how obsolete that ending paragraph is because I can come pretty darn close to the damage output of some of my fortegunner friends with the help of cards, and I wrote it when I was only like... 55/GT5? Something like that. Things change past level 60, for the better too.


That addendum sounds like an excellent idea. The sole reason I've been this argumentative is because there is this stigma around considering Guntechers as a competent damage class. We're labeled as purely support and it really bothers me as I've seen first hand that I am able to stay competitive on this front. I'm willing to admit that this isn't just because of my higher racial ATP; in fact the majority of it is simply because of the weapon selection associated with the GT class. Frankly, I'm very glad that you're beginning to see our edge in this department as a Newman as well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-20 10:29 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-19 21:54, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I'm happy you are 70/10. It's quite an achivement, unless you took the Bruce's B route (and even still a very decent achievement on the level 70).

I'm level 55, and I've played the heck out the game (200+ hours). I'm a ForteFighter level 4 almost 5, so what does that tell me?

A "casual" player of this game may never see 60/10. Never mind 70/10. I picked 60/10 being generous. a more reasonable number is 50/5 or someting similar.

I'd like to agree with you on one point. Given a high enough level (80/10, 90/10 - wheveter), all the races will be able to use the same equipments, and so it really will be less of an issue. If you'd like, we could then start arguing about GT using techs for damage at that level (kidding!)

I am only illustrating that 2 of the races must wait until late in the game to even things out on the wand side.

(last note: I hit Ranger 3 with my female cast, and level 16-17. She still draws zeros wit regularity, so I can say ATA still does have a big impact...


You're quite a congenial guy and I like that about you. Thanks for the grats.

I do like to debate things that focus more on the higher end of the level spectrum. Keep in mind that the majority of the Advanced Types don't really come in to their own until Job Level 8. An extreme example of this would be the Protranser, but to a certain extent, this also true of every other advanced type. Heck, I was Ranger 10 prior to being a Guntecher and after switching my HP and ATP didn't tie my base stats as a 10 Ranger until I finally got 10 Guntecher.

I hope that between my posts and those made by some of the others in this thread you've begun to reconsider your position that Guntechers are only suited for a support role. Also, seriously the 9* Wands are only a marginal improvement on Tenora 6*. I wish that this wasn't the case, but that's just the way things currently stand.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-20 10:32 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

I'm working on a tactics section based on per-level growth - and it should rightly focus on the higher levels, because you know what? You spend a LOT more time on level 65 than you do at level 25 playing the game, and the stakes are higher.

[iono]

The only reason to wear A-rank armors at all is if you've got A-rank slot items - otherwise, ALWAYS elemental % > all.

I don't particularly care for synthing 9* guns - the gain isn't enough for me to waste the money. Bad enough that I spent the cash to synth a 9* crossbow just to check on damage comparison with a beast GT's. Mmm, isn't a set bonus better, anyway? Darnit, I wish I could log in to PSU to check it out real quick. <_<

And for Ageha-Senbas, I have a 28% dark, 30% fire, 22% ice, 26% earth, 26% light, and... only 18% lightning, but the nice thing about having a set of armors like that is I can swap back and forth on the fly without having to adjust my slot items. They were cheap and easy to synth, so I made quite a few of 'em. ^-^



Nice! Although Ageha-senba's defense is really weak. Yeah having a high elemental defense helps but it'll never be as good as a high % Yamata line or Crimson Line. Before I started synthing those I just bought all the npc store elemental armors like Te-senba, Teroline, Gigaline, Rabol Tero, Sori-senba, etc. (sori-senba has strong enough stats that 11% ice on a sori senba is better than 20% ice on a 4* armor) They all have arm slots which I liked. ^^ You might not like them as much though since most GTs seem pretty obsessed with having a head slot to use a TP booster. Personally I think it's not that great. :O +50 ATP is waaaay more useful since half the time I get a real healer (fT) anyways so my heal power isn't that big of a deal.

Still Te-senba and Rabol Tero have head slots + arm slots so they're pretty good unless you are a CAST.

Oh yeah, about the Stella/Power versus Mega/Power. Maybe I should turn that right back around. If people think +10 ATP -20 ATA over Mega/Power is worth it, why is a beast GT who has +ATP -ATA such a big negative?

I synth 9* guns on a regular basis to sell to other players. There is a pretty big market for it on PC so I make a lot of profit to fund my armor fails. ^^ But because of that I can afford my 9* guns. Why can't you do that on 360? Do 9* guns not sell well?

[imfanboy]

Oh, I'm not on 360 - I'm on PS2 myself.

But when I synth weapons, I'm looking for elemental %s - even though I refuse to buy photons in the current market and have never even had over 2 million at any one time (which makes me a pauper, I know) I still have a healthy supply of very nice % weapons. For some reason, knowing that the 9* guns be on sale in the NPC shops eventually for about 225-250k (if the formula that the price of the 7-8* weapons holds true) takes some of the urgency out of my heart to synth them.

[SolomonGrundy]

You're quite a congenial guy and I like that about you. Thanks for the grats.

I do like to debate things that focus more on the higher end of the level spectrum. Keep in mind that the majority of the Advanced Types don't really come in to their own until Job Level 8. An extreme example of this would be the Protranser, but to a certain extent, this also true of every other advanced type. Heck, I was Ranger 10 prior to being a Guntecher and after switching my HP and ATP didn't tie my base stats as a 10 Ranger until I finally got 10 Guntecher.

I hope that between my posts and those made by some of the others in this thread you've begun to reconsider your position that Guntechers are only suited for a support role. Also, seriously the 9* Wands are only a marginal improvement on Tenora 6*. I wish that this wasn't the case, but that's just the way things currently stand.



You and others have certainly had impact. I was second guessing making my cast a guntecker at all, and now I'm willing to give it a go. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[imfanboy]

UPDATED:

The bow, twin handgun, card, crossbow, and shotgun section.

ADDED:

Armor section, Leveling guide, endgame tactica (still rough, because technically level 60-70 STILL isn't endgame. That won't come until 90+ and we're dealing with S3 missions. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif )

[Dymalos]

For the dog enemies at the end of Agata Relics I simply use my Insei-sou bullet on my Bow, they're in fact prone to Infection, which if you land it vs the higher level ones, greatly outdamages our techs. Also, the Bow's defense bypass lets me hit them anywhere on their body.

Other than that maybe you should look into adding a Machinegun section, they've been fixed up rather nicely, and with 21+ bullets they do 150-230 vs lvl 75+ enemies depending on ATP, the enemies defense and their element. If you don't have any experience with them, then I guess I could do a small write up.

[imfanboy]

Ah, I didn't know they were prone to infection - I'll have to work up my infection bow bullet. ^_^

[EphekZ]

hmm, I have an "issue" with your description about lazer cannons. even though it's just an opinion, I don't think people that read this and have yet to try should disregard it completly. for starters, it does the same amount of damage as a rifle. second the enemies in fact do end up in lines and it's very easy to connect with it. of course it shouldnt be your main wep, but it's very good for dealing dmg to multiple enemies for that tag of exp or something.

All i'm really saying is, try it out first if you have yet to. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[BahnKnakyu]

second the enemies in fact do end up in lines and it's very easy to connect with it. of course it shouldnt be your main wep, but it's very good for dealing dmg to multiple enemies for that tag of exp or something.

I really disagree on this part. Only in some places do enemies line up for you, but realistically (I mean in a regular public party with people half-knowing what they're doing) you're not gonna get the ideal bang-for-your-buck with the Lazer Cannon.

The other weapons fare better because they're not entirely reliant upon the enemy spawn patterns and/or terrain. The Lazer Cannon, on the other hand, requires that the enemies to generally be in a "closed" area (i.e. hallways) with the monsters are squished together and your HU teammates not spamming knockback to be effective.

[Jey]

Stateria aren't really "prone" so much as they're not immune to infection (but they're immune to burn, whee). Kinda like tankbots, can't burn them, only infect (go figure).

The thing is, unlike mobs with differential defense like dragon bosses, Stateria (and other certain large bodies like Kog Nadds, Bil de Vears etc.) typically take a flat 1/2 damage from bullets, and I've noticed no damage differential across their bodies. Does bow bypass that 1/2 damage cut? I'm such a rifle whore trying to land virus that I never even thought to try http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif

[Kupi]

The 1/2 damage filter is on any projectile damage. Bows ignore Defense, but since they're still projectiles, they get halved.

[Jey]

Aah, ok. Feck bows then, I'm just gonna stick to my Burning and Dark Shot except on bugs <_< *huggles his rifles*

[Dymalos]

The Dog-like Strateria at the end of Agata (i.e. Neudiaz) Relics, does indeed have an incredibly high defense stat on his body. Try to shoot it with a Rifle and you'll see single digit or low double digit damage. His face on the other hand has practically no defense but is still subject to that half cut. A Bow lets you shoot him on any part of his body for the same damage you'd get on his face.

The Defense bypass isn't such a huge deal against most enemies in the early ranks. But as you get into the Higher Level S-Ranks it becomes an excellent asset. On De Ragnus, for example it is really nice to be able to shoot him for damage in excess of 400 points, while my Fortegunner friend plucks away with his Phantom set for less than 200. As we start getting S2 Rank missions, I am willing to bet that the defense bypass will really start to shine.

[iono]

The more recent areas we've been getting are really starting to make Bow seem more worth it over Rifle. I use both but I've never really seen a lot of payoff for getting my Rifle bullets to 21+ in the time it took to get 3 Bow bullets to 21+. >.< Mostly because Sega seems to think making an area more "difficult" is to make the area have bugs in it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Jey]

BLeh~ I'll have to try bows out on the Galvapos things (or whatever they're called)... in S-rank I'm usually too busy wading in the middle of everything healing/reversing/virusing-in-general to shoot for damage ._. and they have a tendency to warp all over the map which doesn't help bow one bit.

I've been preferring Rifle over Bow in places like HIVE S and Bruce's, for the speed of setup and being able cancel FPS mode to skit away from Foie to the face unscathed in the former.

Plus, having rifles 21+ is kind of a point of pride for me to shove in the face of those higher rank fortegunners without burning/dark shot levelled at all <_<'

To be honest despite the armor-ignoring bonus of bows I haven't seen any real damage difference between my bow and rifle considering the latter sets up and shoots much faster. The SE4 proc rate between the two (which is more important to me), I have no hard evidence yet, haven't really gotten a chance to dig out the fire arrow since hitting 21 on it.

'course, seeing the numbers you're pulling out and looking at mine makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong, but then, I only hit GT6 yesterday ._. All I really know is that shotguns suck for for my GT compared to crossbows, lol.

[iono]

My 9* level 24 Crossbow puts out a lot more damage than my 9* level 30 shot too. ^^

You already invested a lot of time into your Rifle soo there's no real reason for you to change. I use Rifle and Bow but for me I've never seen a real reason to use my Rifle until my Bow is out of PP. >.< Of course I'm also the type who thinks virusing everything is a waste of time; just do it to things with huge HP, otherwise you do a lot more damage over time with normal shots and an element advantage. The only way bow is going to be better than rifle is if you use the element on it for damage, not for virus. There's no way spamming a Dark Bow on everything is going to outdamage a Dark Rifle.

Do you use fans? In Hive S those things really gut a sorcerer thing. I almost always use a light fan there. D: Confusion works really nicely on a sorcerer because they can't hit anything with their spells while confused even if it's right on target. Plus you can do huge damage on the side which is important since those monsters are hunter resistant and are a bit difficult/annoying for a fT to hit.

[Jey]

I only really stick virus on stuff resistant to burn (like stateria and tankbots). In parties, getting the annoying stuff stuck with an SE4 DOT is my first priority, including Gaozoran .______.' but levelling Rising Shot and Yoseisou on the side so maybe I'll mix those up against spellcasters... because we all know Silence is a useless piece of poo.

Then I whip out the fans/crossbows and shoot the stuffing outta them http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif I've gotten kinda cocky since lucking out with a 44% fire crimson line so I've just been crossbowing them ._.' SE3 Confuse + Resta wand mainhand woo.

I don't even really use fans anymore... just on Zoal Goug when I can target its head and strafe, Carriguines, Magas Maggana (or however it's spelled) when it loses its rump...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jey on 2007-02-22 20:45 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

Added a segment on Ageha-senba + Ageha-kikami damage versus Mira-kikami damage (in case you're wondering, the Ageha pair does more damage), and changed my stance on mechguns - you're right, they don't suck now, but I'll have to experiment further to see how far their non-suckitude reaches. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[BahnKnakyu]

On 2007-02-24 23:54, imfanboy wrote:and changed my stance on mechguns - you're right, they don't suck now, but I'll have to experiment further to see how far their non-suckitude reaches. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



Get them to level 21+. They hit hard and they hit FAST.

[iono]

On 2007-02-24 23:54, imfanboy wrote:
Added a segment on Ageha-senba + Ageha-kikami damage versus Mira-kikami damage (in case you're wondering, the Ageha pair does more damage).



I very much disagree about ageha set being worthwhile. First of all, it means being unable to use an arm slot. I deal less damage with every ~other~ gun because of this. Second, the damage difference between a ageha set w/ageha-kikami versus any arm slot armor with a 9* fan & mega/power is very small. I tested it in this thread: http://boards2.sega.com/psu_board/viewtopic.php?t=21042

About elemental %. It isn't the end all and be all of your defense. It's not. To find out whether a high %, low spec armor is better for defense than a low %, high spec armor, you can use a math formula:
for physical hits:
(base DFP+armor DFP)*(elemental %+0.11 if you have mega/rainbow) = defense rating
for tech-based hits:
(base MST+armor MST)*(elemental %%+0.11 if you have mega/rainbow) = magic defense

In case the armor is of an element where both physical and tech defense is important (all except lightning pretty much) you can add the two totals together. Compare which armor gets the highest score and that's the better armor. :P In most cases on my GT a 10% Crimson Line or Yamata-senba are better than 20% B rank armors for this reason. For example, I have 100 DFP and 104 MST, so for me the 27% light Te-senba reduces damage on par with around a 8% Yamata-senba.

Another thing you're losing out on by using a low spec high % armor like ageha-senba is your defense against elements you're not equipped for is terrible. For example using a lightning armor when both Koltovas and Vahras spawn will cause you to take a lot more damage from Koltovas. That is...compared to a Yamata-line with lightning %.

The same applies to damage, but with us rangers all we really have to care about is our ATP. If I got that wrong, correct me because I dont wanna post wrong info. ;-;


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-02-25 06:43 ]</font>

[Jesus_christ]

personally...I think all guntechers need a high % weapon of every element and a pistol/card/machine gun with techs that make it elemental...until the ultimate come out of course,but then again all classes should have these stats, why else would the pallet cap be 6?

[Dymalos]

On 2007-02-25 06:37, iono wrote:
I very much disagree about ageha set being worthwhile. First of all, it means being unable to use an arm slot. I deal less damage with every ~other~ gun because of this. Second, the damage difference between a ageha set w/ageha-kikami versus any arm slot armor with a 9* fan & mega/power is very small. I tested it in this thread: http://boards2.sega.com/psu_board/viewtopic.php?t=21042

About elemental %. It isn't the end all and be all of your defense. It's not. To find out whether a high %, low spec armor is better for defense than a low %, high spec armor, you can use a math formula:
for physical hits:
(base DFP+armor DFP)*(elemental %+0.11 if you have mega/rainbow) = defense rating
for tech-based hits:
(base MST+armor MST)*(elemental %%+0.11 if you have mega/rainbow) = magic defense

In case the armor is of an element where both physical and tech defense is important (all except lightning pretty much) you can add the two totals together. Compare which armor gets the highest score and that's the better armor. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif In most cases on my GT a 10% Crimson Line or Yamata-senba are better than 20% B rank armors for this reason. For example, I have 100 DFP and 104 MST, so for me the 27% light Te-senba reduces damage on par with around a 8% Yamata-senba.

Another thing you're losing out on by using a low spec high % armor like ageha-senba is your defense against elements you're not equipped for is terrible. For example using a lightning armor when both Koltovas and Vahras spawn will cause you to take a lot more damage from Koltovas. That is...compared to a Yamata-line with lightning %.

The same applies to damage, but with us rangers all we really have to care about is our ATP. If I got that wrong, correct me because I dont wanna post wrong info. ;-;

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-02-25 06:43 ]</font>


Also the set bonus is only applied to the base ungrinded stats of the Ageha-kikami. When we do get A Grinder Boards, expect the Mira-kikami to outdamage the Ageha set bonus.

[imfanboy]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif OK, then. I'll revamp it a bit - after all, it's obviously not for everyone, as not everyone believes in synthing armor.

BTW iono, you are dead wrong about armor. I have a 22% ice ageha-senba and take 50 damage from regular 50+ advanced Gohmon barta - with a stock sori-senba at 11% ice I take 110. As it has 80 more magic defense, one would expect by your formula that not to be the case, so I have to conclude your formula is wrong.

I'll do some testing of that later and start a different thread, but right now I"m leveling my mechgun bullet to give them a fair shake.

Plus, the Ageha-senba is a 70% chance to synth on a 100 armor PM - whereas a 9* armor is what, 33%? The average (ie, not bloated with 99 million worth of haxeta) player would be more likely able to get a high % armor doing ageha-senbas.

But you do have a point, I suppose, about the arm slot.

[ein1983]

Guntechers are actually quite good. I became a guntecher at lvl 17 and now almost on my second lvl at 23! I love Moonlight Beast runs!!

[iono]

Ah yeah, I tested it and I was wrong too. That's cool, I was wondering about that and I know it really was wrong. Still you're never going to get a good strong armor if you never try. Yeah a 50% ageha-senba is nice but it's not nearly as nice as a 50% yamata-senba! That's why I do it. That and I already have good %'s from the npc so I'm set on that.

I don't get how non-tech spammers can stand to not use a /Power unit though. What's with that? Why not use an armor with an arm slot? I realize a lot of people don't think GT is for damage but come on, what other slots really matter? Head? Pfft. >.< Imo the only ones that really matter are Body and Arm. Head is nice but it's so not necessary. Extra is only useful to a CAST. So that puts me at wanting an armor with Head/Arm/Body optimally, and there are lots of those to choose from. The only reason to use an Ageha set is for dps, but since by using it you drop your dps with everything except a Ageha-kikami, the only people who really benefit are those who only use fans. And if you don't wear a /Power unit, it's because you wear poop on your head at night!! D: Almost all of the B rank armors with % do the job just fine and are very cheap when compared to synthing armors until you get a good %.

Gotta repeat that other point I made too. Low spec armors are relatively bad in areas with mixed elements. Mixed elements are everywhere and they do spawn together often. Hm, I need something to make this paragraph seem longer to make it have more weight. xD Examples are like De Ragnus, Jarbas+Rhino things, Koltova+Vahra, Hive Sorcerers use both fire and ice, most of neudaiz if it uses a fire/ice setup, moatoob worms are earth but shoot fire, Vandas spam both Diga and Foie, etc etc.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-25 18:00, iono wrote:
Ah yeah, I tested it and I was wrong too. That's cool, I was wondering about that and I know it really was wrong. Still you're never going to get a good strong armor if you never try. Yeah a 50% ageha-senba is nice but it's not nearly as nice as a 50% yamata-senba! That's why I do it. That and I already have good %'s from the npc so I'm set on that.

I don't get how non-tech spammers can stand to not use a /Power unit though. What's with that? Why not use an armor with an arm slot? I realize a lot of people don't think GT is for damage but come on, what other slots really matter? Head? Pfft. >.< Imo the only ones that really matter are Body and Arm. Head is nice but it's so not necessary. Extra is only useful to a CAST. So that puts me at wanting an armor with Head/Arm/Body optimally, and there are lots of those to choose from. The only reason to use an Ageha set is for dps, but since by using it you drop your dps with everything except a Ageha-kikami, the only people who really benefit are those who only use fans. And if you don't wear a /Power unit, it's because you wear poop on your head at night!! D: Almost all of the B rank armors with % do the job just fine and are very cheap when compared to synthing armors until you get a good %.

Gotta repeat that other point I made too. Low spec armors are relatively bad in areas with mixed elements. Mixed elements are everywhere and they do spawn together often. Hm, I need something to make this paragraph seem longer to make it have more weight. xD Examples are like De Ragnus, Jarbas+Rhino things, Koltova+Vahra, Hive Sorcerers use both fire and ice, most of neudaiz if it uses a fire/ice setup, moatoob worms are earth but shoot fire, Vandas spam both Diga and Foie, etc etc.



most folks don't have A rank armor. That means that the best arm unit they can use is a 50 ATP unit. 50 ATP is 10 damage a shot...not noting, but not incredible either.

On the flipside, Body, and Extra slot can make a big difference. SUV weapons, or the healing item for the extra slot, and mega rainbow for the body,

[iono]

With that fan test I did, Mega/Power added about 45 damage a shot on average. It was basically a difference of 10-20 per bullets, times 3 which is ~45 a shot.

Why is the healing item in the Extra slot useful to a GT? It makes virtually no difference and you can heal yourself. I have 1765 HP and it gives me 17 HP a tick. I don't even notice. O_o When I have an extra slot, I just use an Endurance item.

[Jesus_christ]

attention all guntechers!!!meet me on clyez 4th floor later today...my name is JESUS and I'm a cast

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-26 03:27, iono wrote:
With that fan test I did, Mega/Power added about 45 damage a shot on average. It was basically a difference of 10-20 per bullets, times 3 which is ~45 a shot.

Why is the healing item in the Extra slot useful to a GT? It makes virtually no difference and you can heal yourself. I have 1765 HP and it gives me 17 HP a tick. I don't even notice. O_o When I have an extra slot, I just use an Endurance item.



I said SUV or a healing item. I tell you why, you are getting 17 every few seconds. It adds up - especially when you wear armor that reduces damage. And that's the level 1 healing item, if I ever get the level 2 healing item, I'll be giddy.

I'm not saying the mega power is bad, just that it is the first slot itme I would give up if I was a GT. You got 45-50 extra damage...maybe one of the bullets it for a critical? The best case for Mega Power is shot gun, and even with it, i'd still sake Body and extra slot over Arm arm extra slot.

[iono]

The reason why I find a HP/Restore useless is because I can heal myself just fine. You're probably talking about of experience with a fortefighter where since you rely on mates, it really does add up. I would recommend a HP/Restore to anyone who can't heal themselves. However, with my GT I always run out of bullet PP before I run out of PP on my wands, so I hope you can see why I say it. I really have no use for that item, so much so that I use an endurance item instead when I have an extra slot.

No, none of the bullets were a critical lol. xD If I had criticaled, I would have seen more than 100 points per bullet (300+ total) per shot instead of a measly 45. xD~~ I tried it again earlier with my crossbow and the damage went from 200-210 with no Mega/Power to 220-230 with Mega/Power per bullet, so that would be a little closer to 60 per shot at 21
(because of 3 bullets) or 40 at 20 (because of 2 bullets). (it was actually just a level 20 crossbow, so it was 40 in this case). I also have an alteric +8 which has only like 10 more ATP than my Ulteri and yet it still does pretty consistently about 10 more damage.

But if you really don't think Mega/Power is useful, well um....hey, it's your life. Do what you want. After all you do seem to be of the impression that a GT can't compete with other classes for damage. I was looking at the Solid/Power S, how it drops your ATA and boosts your ATP like hell. OMG do I ever want that thing!! I mean sure, I probably won't be able to use it everywhere but in the places where I can that thing will be awesome. xD I wonder if I could hit 670s consistently with my bow? Since I'm already at 580 with the Alteric and shifta level 3.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-27 06:14, iono wrote:
The reason why I find a HP/Restore useless is because I can heal myself just fine. You're probably talking about of experience with a fortefighter where since you rely on mates, it really does add up. I would recommend a HP/Restore to anyone who can't heal themselves. However, with my GT I always run out of bullet PP before I run out of PP on my wands, so I hope you can see why I say it. I really have no use for that item, so much so that I use an endurance item instead when I have an extra slot.

No, none of the bullets were a critical lol. xD If I had criticaled, I would have seen more than 100 points per bullet (300+ total) per shot instead of a measly 45. xD~~ I tried it again earlier with my crossbow and the damage went from 200-210 with no Mega/Power to 220-230 with Mega/Power per bullet, so that would be a little closer to 60 per shot at 21
(because of 3 bullets) or 40 at 20 (because of 2 bullets). (it was actually just a level 20 crossbow, so it was 40 in this case). I also have an alteric +8 which has only like 10 more ATP than my Ulteri and yet it still does pretty consistently about 10 more damage.

But if you really don't think Mega/Power is useful, well um....hey, it's your life. Do what you want. After all you do seem to be of the impression that a GT can't compete with other classes for damage. I was looking at the Solid/Power S, how it drops your ATA and boosts your ATP like hell. OMG do I ever want that thing!! I mean sure, I probably won't be able to use it everywhere but in the places where I can that thing will be awesome. xD I wonder if I could hit 670s consistently with my bow? Since I'm already at 580 with the Alteric and shifta level 3.



where are you getting shifta level 3 from? a fortetecker? If you are with a party I'd say you need the Mega power even less...

We were discussing giving up one slot over another. Obviously I'd use Mega Power if I had an arm Slot. I was jsut saying I'd give it up if the choice was Arm or Body/Extra.

Now, my Guntecker "to be" is a Cast, so I'm giving it up for SUV reasons.

[iono]

Nah, you were definitely promoting a HP/Restore and I was disagreeing with that, specifically. ^^ Yeah you did say Extra slot is useful to a CAST for SUV, but no one was arguing that. I've even said that myself several times a few pages ago. As it stands almost all armors at endgame are a choice between no head slot or no extra slot. You can nearly always get arm/body/extra on an armor. The only real way you'd be sacrificing the arm slot is if you lowball your armor and stick with B rank Yohmei for the sake of heal power and affordability. The endgame choices are basically Yamata-senba (head/arm/body) or Crimson Line (arm/body/extra), or alternatively there are some armors with (head/body/extra) that are cheaper but with weaker stats. My entire point that I've been trying to say is that the last one - (head/body/extra) - is really something I would dislike using. The benefits there are that all yohmei armors seem to boost your TP some so you heal for more, but they don't get arm slots until Te-senba (90k from npc with 27% light, bad for Hive). A CAST wouldn't want that because it has no extra slot, so the next one up would be Sori-senba (ice is generally the weakest armor element due to lack of ice monsters). Baaaasically, if you're telling the truth, we weren't even talking about the same thing lol.

The bow damage comes from a FT but the crossbow damage was actually unbuffed. Do buffs multiply on your final ATP or just your base ATP? I was very sure it was on your final ATP. Since it multiplies, Mega/Power matters a little more buffed than unbuffed because the boost gets even bigger. Same goes for if the ATP boost on your bullet is applied at the end - a Mega/Power would therefore matter more as you get stronger bullets.

[imfanboy]

iono's spot-on about a mega/power - it actually adds something like 20-30 per swing of the cards with my newman guntecher.

However, I don't see much of a difference between the ageha-kikami and mira-kikami - quite possibly because my ATP is so low that it DOESN'T make enough of a difference. I'll revise the bit on the ageha combo.


OK, on the contest between mechguns and cards... I got my mechgun bullet to 21+ last night, and cards are still the clear winner. Hell, a dark crossbow at 21 STILL beats the mechgun.

It took me 1:45 to clear out a mob of 4 distovas with an ice mechgun bullet at 21+ - and only about :45 to do it with an ice card at only level 16. Not to mention I emptied out 2 mechguns doing it and only halfway tapped out my card.

The main thing that mechguns seem to be good for is drawing aggro, lots and lots of aggro, which isn't necessarily a BAD thing tactically - particularly if you're trying to shield a nuking fortetecher or keep the hunters from being torn apart by a big pack of go vahras.

HOWEVER, because my base ATP is low, I will say that the higher your base ATP, the more good you'll do with the mechgun. Probably the best users would be the CAST, followed by the beast - the cast has the highest ATA coupled with the second-highest ATP.

I know that my 53/6 figunner caseal does more damage with a mechgun bullet at only 11 than my newearl GT does with hers at 21+.


Expect a revision on my guide soon, including an extended edition on soloing.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-27 11:27, iono wrote:
Nah, you were definitely promoting a HP/Restore and I was disagreeing with that, specifically. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif Yeah you did say Extra slot is useful to a CAST for SUV, but no one was arguing that. I've even said that myself several times a few pages ago. As it stands almost all armors at endgame are a choice between no head slot or no extra slot. You can nearly always get arm/body/extra on an armor. The only real way you'd be sacrificing the arm slot is if you lowball your armor and stick with B rank Yohmei for the sake of heal power and affordability. The endgame choices are basically Yamata-senba (head/arm/body) or Crimson Line (arm/body/extra), or alternatively there are some armors with (head/body/extra) that are cheaper but with weaker stats. My entire point that I've been trying to say is that the last one - (head/body/extra) - is really something I would dislike using. The benefits there are that all yohmei armors seem to boost your TP some so you heal for more, but they don't get arm slots until Te-senba (90k from npc with 27% light, bad for Hive). A CAST wouldn't want that because it has no extra slot, so the next one up would be Sori-senba (ice is generally the weakest armor element due to lack of ice monsters). Baaaasically, if you're telling the truth, we weren't even talking about the same thing lol.

The bow damage comes from a FT but the crossbow damage was actually unbuffed. Do buffs multiply on your final ATP or just your base ATP? I was very sure it was on your final ATP. Since it multiplies, Mega/Power matters a little more buffed than unbuffed because the boost gets even bigger. Same goes for if the ATP boost on your bullet is applied at the end - a Mega/Power would therefore matter more as you get stronger bullets.



way to misinterpret my post...I DO find ME/restore useful - on my foretfighter who cannot resta. If When Tero/HP resore is released, I'll find it doubly so.

Mega power IS buffed by shifta as your surmised. However that boost is the same regardless of Gun, unless you are saying that a gun bullets get higher, the elemental and damage bonus increases, and Mega Power takes advantage of this (and you'd be rigth).

With regard to Armor, I ONLY have monetary access to B rank armor and I am a level 58 character. most of the players I hang with are in the same boat. There is a 4*, a 5* and a 6* armor with all slots EXCEPT Arm. My point was (and is), I would consider using one of these armors instead of using one with an Arm slot as a Guntecker. I cannot speak to "end game" scenarios as I am not there, but I've put a lot of hours into the game, and can say that there are a lot of folks that will play a LOT of Guntecker and not be wearing A rank armor.

So why don't you cut me some slack? I'm interested in having a discussion, not an argument.

[Dymalos]

I've done similar tests with the Mechgun and it has also ranked behind Cards but not by much, about 4 or 5 seconds behind Cards on a single target so almost tied with Crossbow. I'm using lvl 75 Ageetas as my test subjects because they're the ideal candidates for maximizing Machinegun damage as they have very low defense paired with low evasion. Keeping in mind that they're primarily for use against Ageetas, Polties, Navals, Pannons, Distovas and any other low defense monster I'm leaving out (Badiras don't work as they have a decent amount of Defense), they still pull out ahead of Dual Handguns in DPS, so I'm going to keep all 6 elements in my arsenal.

As far as which kind to use, I'd go with Beam Vulcanics. I'm a Beast so the small amount of lost Att. doesn't hurt much and I really don't notice the Acc. hit either (Again I'm not going to be using these against High Evasion targets). It only costs 64 Meseta to fully recharge my Beam Vulcanics (963PP, 18 PP Regen), the extra PP is really going to be helpful for the Ultimate Mechgun Art. The Beam Vulcanic's Acc. won't matter for that because frankly at lvl 30 it's going to be giving you only 3% of your total Accuracy,

[iono]

On 2007-02-27 14:01, SolomonGrundy wrote:
So why don't you cut me some slack? I'm interested in having a discussion, not an argument.



o.o What's that all about? I think you need to calm down, you're letting your emotions get in the way of your judgement. I have no intention of hating on you and if looks that way sorry!! I thought this was a discussion and I was trying to keep it at that. Guess I'll let off if it bugs you that much.

[imfanboy]

ADDED SECTIONS:

Mechgun, Drawing Aggro, Soloing, Dealing With Spellcasters, and an overview of basic tactics with your guns. Also, spiffy quotes. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

REVISED:

Cards, Crossbow, Rifle (a bit), and the organization of the whole guide - I tried to make it a little easier to read and to tell what begins where, I hope.

Any comments on the new stuff, or the revisions?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-02-27 15:51 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

Bleedin' double posts. Anyway, I'm off to school, see you guys.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-02-27 15:48 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

o.o What's that all about? I think you need to calm down, you're letting your emotions get in the way of your judgement. I have no intention of hating on you and if looks that way sorry!! I thought this was a discussion and I was trying to keep it at that. Guess I'll let off if it bugs you that much.



I'm calm, perhaps I misread your tone.

[Midicronica]

Sorry, to disrupt your debates guy. Might I just say, I'm thoroughly enjoying them. I've heard so many ideas from different perspectives and have learned many things from this thread. I started my Cast Guntecher off of the reccomendations of this thread. Focusing on Duel Handguns and Bows.

Now, I have another question, I've decided it's about time to pick up a off-hand weapon. I'm a little bent on whether I should pick up a crossbow. I already own Cards from my newman FT and I know the amazing damage that they can do. I've recently bough the Reisei-shiki (Ice Cards) skill and have gotten it 11. My friend has been telling me that it's somewhat of a necessity that I pick up a crossbow because it's power and whatnot. I absolutely love cards and have heard about how great crossbows can be (and how slow the skill can be to lvl up), however I'm just really bent on whether I should bother at all.

So, here's one of my questions: Should I just continue on with Cards purchasing all of the bullets for it and just forget about Crossbows?

Next, the weapon I carry in my other hand while using my cards is a 50% ice Asami-zashi, (my friend hand hell with that damn board! ><) and it's been working great. I decided not use my wand as main-hand weapon is, to be honest, my resta is no better than that of a monomate, at the moment. I know I could just go out and buy a Tenora 3* wand and attempt to grind it to +10 at the cost of my sanity. Or I could just go ahead and use this very nice dagger my friend synthed for me.

Question: What do you guys think I should do about dagger/wand ordeal?

I'm open to criticism and whatnot, so be free to say whatever you feel is necessary. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-27 16:13, Shadow_Moses wrote:

So, here's one of my questions: Should I just continue on with Cards purchasing all of the bullets for it and just forget about Crossbows?

Question: What do you guys think I should do about dagger/wand ordeal?

I'm open to criticism and whatnot, so be free to say whatever you feel is necessary. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



here are my thoughts

1. crossbows deliver SE 3 at bullet level 21+, and have a very straight forward shooting style. Cards 'seek' and have higher elemental % do are great for damage dealing. I'd say use crossbows when you want to spread SEs, and use Cards vs enenmies that move fast and tend to dodge.

2. Absolutely keep a weapon on your palette. You'll need it for enemies resistant to ranged attacks. level 10 skills are a lot more effective then level 10 techs in replacing ranged damage - especially for a Cast.

[imfanboy]

Use both, Shadow_Moses.

Here's my usual pallate for soloing:

Card with Ice / Wand with Jellen/Zalure
Crossbow with Dark / Dagger with appropriate element (right now a 50% Earth Stinger)
Card with another element (see below) / Wand with Resta/Reverser
(fire on Neudaiz, earth on Parum, lightning on Moatoob, or otherwise as the situation needs it)
Dual handguns with Ice
Bow with Virus/Burn
Mechgun with Ice / Wand with buffs as necessary


Yeah, 3 wands and a dagger! It's not like you HAVE to use a ton of 2-handed weapons!

The only one of them that has high TP is the Resta wand; the buffs and debuff spells are NOT TP-dependant so they make excellent Guntecher technics.

Essentially, you only need to grind up one, maybe 2 C-rank Tenora wands to maybe +5 or so. That isn't so bad, even on a 1 or 2 luck day. Also, favor head slots in armor over arm slots, and get a Sta/Mind. What level is your CAST? Still under 50?

[Midicronica]

She's 49, but very close to lvl 50. Hmm, I don't know if I could favor a head slot over an arm slot. I could definitely use the TP boost, however I'd rather much rather boost my ATP than TP. Most of the time when I play my friend plays as a force and plays his class very well. I never really have to worry about healing. And when my HP is yellow, I'll pop a mate faster than a fat kid eatin' cake. If one of the party members is yellow, I heal for about 270-290+, that's about enough to restore a good amount of his her HP after two restas. By then the force has noticed and is casting resta like a madman.

I'll take your advice though and grab my armor and sta/mind from my main character and see how I like it.

[imfanboy]

Well, heck, if you're not supporting that much then don't worry about it.

Apparently CAST tp growth for GTs really IS horrible - I just talked to a 70/9 caseal GT and she's STILL short the TP to use the W'gasta!!!! That's just depressing.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-27 21:49, imfanboy wrote:
Well, heck, if you're not supporting that much then don't worry about it.

Apparently CAST tp growth for GTs really IS horrible - I just talked to a 70/9 caseal GT and she's STILL short the TP to use the W'gasta!!!! That's just depressing.



...I hate to say I told you so...

[imfanboy]

Hey, I already knew it, Solomon - that's why I play my newearl GT where I can resta for 520 easy-peasy without a head unit on. Pop a retaride and I'm up around 630-650, which isn't all that bad for a 'non-supporting' class.


Nice that I do so, too, since apparently I'm the one in ten of forces who actually KNOWS how to play one - got payed a compliment today, too. "You're so good at supporting I'd think you DID play a fortetecher all the time."

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-02-28 03:16, imfanboy wrote:
Hey, I already knew it, Solomon - that's why I play my newearl GT where I can resta for 520 easy-peasy without a head unit on. Pop a retaride and I'm up around 630-650, which isn't all that bad for a 'non-supporting' class.


Nice that I do so, too, since apparently I'm the one in ten of forces who actually KNOWS how to play one - got payed a compliment today, too. "You're so good at supporting I'd think you DID play a fortetecher all the time."



Heh, that is a nice compliment! It's a double bummer for Cast Gunteckers: we need an extra slot, AND we need a head slot (armors often come with one or the other). I should make my female case a FiGunner and be done with it...

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Astarin]

Great guide. I'm finding it really helpful to have the detailed weapon analysis, to kinda give me a feel for which weapon types to grab first.

I noticed you mentioned debate on the topic of Zodial/Zoldeel. For the record, as a 28/1 Human Female Guntecher, the lightning buff and debuff help me a lot. They're probably not particularly useful later on (already, her ATA seems to level quite quickly), but right now, using these means I see a lot fewer 0's, especially on B missions.

[Dymalos]

Guide is looking really nice Ima.

[imfanboy]

Ah, just call me fanboy; no need to be formal. ^_^

[Deja]

Ok I bought Shotgun, Dual Handgun, and Crossbow Ult PA. So far out of these three, duals take the cake. It gets lvl 3 Zalure at 21, levels fairly fast (lvl 14 after two days of steady play), and since guntechers zalure stops at lvl 1, is a godsend.

Shotgun seems like a downer. I heard it stops at Zoldeel lvl 1, and doesnt grow at lvl 11. Is this true? I'll never use it then, since it is the same as guntecher zoldeel.

Crossbow seems okay, but it is only lvl 2. When I get it to lvl 21, I can see how good it is against the elemental crossbow bullets. I'm hoping it is a bullet I can use on any creature, and will outdamage element by at least 20-30.

[Corsesca]

Personally--but this is probably just me.
I believe that if you're a CAST Guntecher, you should just use Resta sparingly as a "Refresh" type of tech. Not an actual healing tech. Reverser is our only tech friend.
I also dont believe in GTs using techs other than Reverser and Resta...Especially the buffs and debuffs since you cant get them to 11 or 21. You might go "But itll help!"
Well sure, it might, but not very much if at all.

Sorry, just had to throw my two-cents in there. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[iono]

The jump from no buff-->level 10 buff is bigger than the jump from 10 buff-->21 buff. Same with debuffs. Or I'm a complete nub. ;-;

[Soukosa]

Inconvinence of switching to the wand and casting the buffs every 2 minutes > the small boost in stats, to me anyways. For soloing stronger stuff they can be helpful and worth it but not for most things. Also in a party, their rediculously short range makes it too annoying to try to buff the party with in the absense of classes with higher buffs.

[imfanboy]

Mmm, that does depend sounomi. Usually, a party of 5-6 people can clear a room in less than a minute, sometimes two if there's something annoying; it's the matter of a few seconds to stand in the doorway to the next room and say, "Hey, hold up for some quick buffs!"

Heck, lately I've been partying with 2-3 guntechers in the same party, and all of us cast a different buff just to make it that much faster.

And 10% from the buff IS helpful, if not world-shattering like it was on PSO - because that multiplier is applied after all the others.

Lately, I've been studying just how much of a difference Zodial and Zodeel make, and they DO make a difference even with just 10%. It's actually really shocking how much it makes, especially for fortefighters who'd (you think) wouldn't get that big of a bonus from it, seeing as how they have the second lowest accuracy to be multiplied by...

But that's for another day. Right now I'm going to bed.

[Vay]

Heh, debuffing/buffing doesn't help? Fight against level 90 things, and tell me the same.

Level 10 Jellen and Zalure help tremendously... as for short range on it? Well, the way I play, I am all over the battlefield to reverser/toss in resta's on the Forces to make sure they don't get 1-shotted. I'm mostly in melee range, good thing I love crossbows so much, so it really suits my playstyle. Applying buffs/debuffs is NP at all. Do you other GT's take advantage of the mobility of the 1h guns/ Twin Handgus as much as you could? Just something to think about... 'cause what other GT's I party with are mostly useless, I hate to say. I have partied with a few good 'uns, and we have exchanged PC's.

Just also a little personal "thing" about buffing: Why stop the party to gather for buffs? Run with the melee up into the middle of a spawn, they usually have a few seconds before they become "active" targets, just toss out your 2 buffs off your buff wand when everybody's bunched up. No muss, no fuss.

I have been playing with the Mechgun Ultimate, Mayalee Fury as well, and it CAN let a GT become a lockdown-type character on large mobs that can usually pose a problem to the group. SEED-Vance's, just run behind, fire off a few shots, he'll fall... wait a moment for him to start to get back up, squeeze off a few more, etc. Also works on Gazorans effectively, but on smaller "tossable" mobs like them, when you launch them, they will always flip around 180 degrees (This is assuming you hit them in the back, which you SHOULD using this PA!) to be facing you, so you have to be an active runner/strafer to really be able to lock one down. I was able to do this in my last Falkis run pretty well, locking down the buffed Gazo's, and acting as a reverser/resta'er for the forces in my group so they don't get two-shot.

Also, Corseca, CAST GT's Resta STILL is a Resta... 350-430ish HP recovered is better than none, and a few casts in succession (not difficult to do) can save someone some painful death. Sure, we're not Newman, but we have a healstick, may as well put it to good use.

Sounomi, I know it's crappy with level 10 Buffs' small radius to try to get a party buffed, but if you can at least keep Shifta on the damagers and Deband on your squishies (if even that) that can help out the party by a substantial margin, especially in the missions with level 90+ stuff (Mad Beasts, Hive Core).

[SolomonGrundy]

Can I get some palette feedback? Looking at the stuff I want to carry it looks like I'll be toting 2 wands, and maybe a 3rd? That seems like a lot..

Palette so far:
Rifle or Bow
Shotgun
Dual Handguns
Crossbow/Wand (shifta/deband)
Crossbow/Wand (debuff/zodial)
Card/Dagger

I don't like getting caught with my pants down when a 1/2 damage from ranged shows up, and single daggers ATP # of hits makes it worthwhile.

The problem is (some of you see it already)...there is no room for resta/reverser with this set up. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif I'd have to sub out something and drop a quick resta or worse, drop a buff/debuff in order to slot reverser (as I'm unwilling to slot resta over reverser - I'll use a dimate/star atomizer, thanks)

[Jey]

Usually I keep a saber on me just in case, but I almost never see the need for it (or any other melee weapon) as a GT. Maybe for solo, but I've never been in a PT situation where I'm not better off trying to land burn/shock/confuse/skill-up-lolkillershot/yay-mayalee-fury or casting technics over strict melee damage.

Mine is like uhhh...

Rifle (always skilling up rifle, so this is skillup bullet or burn/virus)
Rifle or Bow (usually Burn, swap out for Virus if necessary)
Dual Handguns w/ Twin Mayalee onry, lv21 eats up a lot of PP
Xbow + Resta/Reverse
Xbow + Shifta/Zodial
Xbow/Card + Resta/Reverse

There's no luxury of constantly swapping out weapons in higher-rank missions like SEED Awakened S, more of which are to come. Even with 44% fire armor Gaozorans Foie me for 350+ (and Gibarta for 550, doh); with 30% dark, Dilnazens and Jusnaguns slam me for 300 through lv3 Deband. When that is multiplied by 6 people, 10 times an area, 10 Star Atomizers means nothing. I wouldn't start relying heavily on swapping wands - you only need to cast buffs once every 90s, but you might use resta 10 times a room.

If you don't have Resta immediately on hand in your palette, unless you have a WT around who does, your pt will be relying on their scape dolls, because the fTs don't really like to get in the thick of things to resta, for pretty reasonable reasons.

Anyway, I use two resta/reverse wands on a palette at a time because I'm a spam-monkey. If I accidentally run out of PP on one wand and it's an emergency, I can easily jump down two slots and use the other. That's just convenience for me, and my FFXI drummed-in mage instinct to keep people alive. I know I know GTs have crap TP but you make do...

Enough about curing... everyone knows I hate the lv10 resta radius.

[Vay]

Heh, FFXI mage instinct kicks in for me as well, Jey, I know what you mean. I don't like seeing names turn red while I'm around.

Lately I've been using:

Rifle
Bow
Xbow+ Resta/Reverser
Mgun/Card + Shifta/Zodial
Card + Resta/Reverser
Xbow + Jellen/Zalure

I would be using Twin Handguns but I'm 30ish PA Frags short of grabbing that, already have Mayalee Fury and the Xbow one.

By swapping wands, you mean grabbing them out of your palette? I usually don't bother unless they're dry...

Ah, and if there are few spellcasting mobs (use my rifle for Grav shot), I will usually just bring in another resta/reverser wand with an xbow.

Always have a dagger onhand, myself, just in case. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[imfanboy]

Me, I just keep track of my heal wand closely - when it starts to dip to about 100 PP left, I go to my subscreen and swap it out with an extra. Easy enough to do between fights, and only takes about 2 seconds with practice to do inside of a fight; of course, I DO practice a lot with using the subscreen 'cause I swap armor a lot.


Oh, and Solomon, i've been playing around with melee as a guntecher, and the only time - the ONLY time - I've ever found it profitable was against enemies with multiple hit locations together that are also bullet and tech-resistant, like Kog Nadd and Strateria. Against an S-rank Lv85 Dilzanen, who are bullet resistant, I was doing more damage with my Foie than I was with a 22% light dagger - of course, that's because I'm a newman, I'm sure a beast or cast would have done more with the dagger - but the principle still holds true. We're better off leaving melee alone, unless we're solo.

I won't lie, I was using that dagger against the SEED-Vance at the end of Fight For Food S solo, and my 50% earth dag pwns Polovorha, but honestly... it's better to just SE them.


On another note, I borrowed a friend's Sori/Tech Charge on Saturday night for a while, and this is a GODSEND for any guntecher. Stuff fortetechers who imagine that they actually need to do more damage with their flaming feline feces (AKA Diga), we can make some pretty damned good use of it because it'll more than double most GT's TP. It added 200 to my resta WITHOUT a Retaride; with a retaride, I was healing more than 800 a dose.

[Jey]

On 2007-03-04 19:09, Vay wrote:
Heh, FFXI mage instinct kicks in for me as well, Jey, I know what you mean. I don't like seeing names turn red while I'm around.

Resta > Curaga IV ._. I wish I could Benediction without killing myself.



I would be using Twin Handguns but I'm 30ish PA Frags short of grabbing that, already have Mayalee Fury and the Xbow one.


Yeah I had to rearrange my standard palette some when I got Twin Mayalee. It's just so <3 that I had to get rid of a wand in my setup.



By swapping wands, you mean grabbing them out of your palette? I usually don't bother unless they're dry...

Mm Solomon was sayin how his standard palette doesn't have a resta/reverse wand, that he'd just swap one in from menu when he needed it. I was just arguing that at higher level missions in the thick of some really fierce fights there's just no time for that unless you like seeing people die.

I carry like, 30 guns/wands on me so sometimes it's a chore to dig through my menu to swap stuff onto my palette. Need to break that habit and start using photon charges, but eh.



Ah, and if there are few spellcasting mobs (use my rifle for Grav shot), I will usually just bring in another resta/reverser wand with an xbow.

I use light shots ^_^ confuse seems to stick better/longer, and it's so much easier to see than silence. 1) you get the mob stopping in its tracks to cast something, which you don't get with silence, 2) confused enemy techs don't hit players, 3) confused enemy techs hit other enemies too. good stuff.

And fanboy, swapping armor is nothing like swapping in a resta wand just to resta.

But whatever, I just seem to have chosen a totally different playstyle than most other GTs, 's all ._.

[imfanboy]

oh, no, what I meant was that I have a resta/reverser wand in my pallate (a Majimra, usually) but I keep a well-ground Crozier in my inventory just in case.

Also, my resta/reverser wand is usually at the top of my pallate, so if I have to swap it fast it's RIGHT there and I just add to pallate and then press Start to exit out of the sub menu quick as possible.


Oh, and you can sort your submenu by hitting the Square button while you're in it - if you do that, you might well be able to get to your more quickly by just reversing the order of Category so the wands are right at the top.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-03-04 19:47 ]</font>

[Jey]

Naaah wands I just hit up once and I'm at the bottom of the weapons list where they are by default. Those aren't a big deal except that I tend to use wands until they're completely drained. With two resta wands in use and trying to remember which resta wand I need to swap in the middle of a fight can be kinda crazy for me when people are taking 300-600 damage left and right like in SEED S (it's hella fun, yeah! but damn so stressful to heal).

It's the crossbows that are the worst offenders, 3 of 3 elements and they start out all neatly blocked together but for some reason keep going out of order... :x but really I'm always swapping out guns so... messing with the inventory sort is more trouble than it's worth to me, since I'm so accustomed to the default category sort.

Swapping stuff in and out isn't any different than what any other job has to do to keep the PP flowing, and it's going to be awkward no matter what in tight quarters. You just try to set up the palette as universal as you can make it so that you only really have to swap out identical weapons.

I just don't like seeing stuff like, "my TP sucks so it's not my job to (help) heal, I'mma just cast buffs/debuffs and do damage" which is pretty much akin to me to Fighgunners who don't use traps or anything other than double sabers... or Fortefighters who don't carry handguns, or (way back when) Forces who were bow-onry.

Sure the palette cramps playstyle pretty bad, and the PA limit doesn't help, but considering that you can only carry so many medicines at a time, Resta is one of the most important technics in the game. If you can use your TP, why the heck handicap yourself and your party by making your Resta/Reverse cumbersome to use, even prioritizing buffs/debuffs over it. Even if you only heal for 200 and gotta wave your wand a few times more, that's better than 0 when another techer is a mile away, and good luck finding random people who will use star/sol atomizers on you regularly.

I've just been doing support jobs for so long now, a techer playing irresponsibly just irks me to death. sorry. Or maybe I just distrust other techers.

Maybe I'm just being overly critical. Probably x.o'

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jey on 2007-03-04 20:24 ]</font>

[Vay]

HEH, Just got out of a SEED S run where I was only healer, we did great up 'til the boss' 2nd form, that got ugly. All my wands got a workout.

My inventory also turns into a mess after a long run, just like this one. Nothing's where it was when it started, lol.

Would also like to add I'm on PC, use KB only. Loving this class, though, too bad I started it when I was level 63! Got an big hill to climb to get my PA's to where they should be. Have several at 21 already though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Hey, Ima, what's a Majimra? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif Go go CAST TP.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vay on 2007-03-04 21:06 ]</font>

[juno-6]

...nevermind.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-03-06 14:45 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-04 19:19, imfanboy wrote:
Me, I just keep track of my heal wand closely - when it starts to dip to about 100 PP left, I go to my subscreen and swap it out with an extra. Easy enough to do between fights, and only takes about 2 seconds with practice to do inside of a fight; of course, I DO practice a lot with using the subscreen 'cause I swap armor a lot.


Oh, and Solomon, i've been playing around with melee as a guntecher, and the only time - the ONLY time - I've ever found it profitable was against enemies with multiple hit locations together that are also bullet and tech-resistant, like Kog Nadd and Strateria. Against an S-rank Lv85 Dilzanen, who are bullet resistant, I was doing more damage with my Foie than I was with a 22% light dagger - of course, that's because I'm a newman, I'm sure a beast or cast would have done more with the dagger - but the principle still holds true. We're better off leaving melee alone, unless we're solo.

I won't lie, I was using that dagger against the SEED-Vance at the end of Fight For Food S solo, and my 50% earth dag pwns Polovorha, but honestly... it's better to just SE them.


On another note, I borrowed a friend's Sori/Tech Charge on Saturday night for a while, and this is a GODSEND for any guntecher. Stuff fortetechers who imagine that they actually need to do more damage with their flaming feline feces (AKA Diga), we can make some pretty damned good use of it because it'll more than double most GT's TP. It added 200 to my resta WITHOUT a Retaride; with a retaride, I was healing more than 800 a dose.



I *am* a cast though, so it's a different beast. 80 more ATP at level 60/10. on the flip side the only way I could see diga doing ANYTHING with TP as poor as mine is on a critical. The single dagger has good ATP but more importantly, I can do a normal hit as a 2 hit combo, then jump right into the PA, and get off 4 hits.

The damage isn't outstanding, but it get's the job done AND allows me to take it to "1/2 damage from ranged" beasties, and there are a lot. Looking at the stats of GRM sabers though, It may be that the ultra high saber ATP may offset the additional hits of dagger. I'll have to run a few tests...heh...

On the wand issue. When I'm soloing I'll just use dimates/trimates to heal Now that PMs heal with more regularity I'll be able to get away with it more http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

In a party is where I'll be having the problem. Perhaps I'll just give up the shotgun in favor of another x box when partying. Sad though. I like shot gun. Lots of PP. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Phlamingtoad]

i follow the KISS method and keep my weapons stupidly simple

Xbow / Wand
Xbow / Wand
Xbow / Wand
Xbow / Wand
Card / Wand
Bow

all wands have resta as X, reverser as Y.

I've got a lot of elemtents 21+ and all of them 11+, so i switch them based on my current needs, but bow usually stays at SE4 infect- used almost only on mobs that are uneffected by SE3

[Deja]

I recommend every Guntecher buys and synths a Cometaric (8* kubara wand) for their buffing/debuffing. It has 130 more PP than majimra, and since buffs/debuffs don't need TP...

Anyways, my Guntecher setup:

Twin Guns with most PP (Mayalee - Zalure Debuff)
Twin Guns with most ATP - Necessary Element
Shotgun with most PP - (ATA/EVP down)
Crossbow - Majimra (Resta/Reverser)
Crossbow - Majimra (Resta/Reverser)
Crossbow - Cometaric (Shifta/Zodial)

This setup is nice, and once I lvl the two Ultimate PAs on here, I'll be all set.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-05 12:43, Deja wrote:
I recommend every Guntecher buys and synths a Cometaric (8* kubara wand) for their buffing/debuffing. It has 130 more PP than majimra, and since buffs/debuffs don't need TP...

Anyways, my Guntecher setup:

Twin Guns with most PP (Mayalee - Zalure Debuff)
Twin Guns with most ATP - Necessary Element
Shotgun with most PP - (ATA/EVP down)
Crossbow - Majimra (Resta/Reverser)
Crossbow - Majimra (Resta/Reverser)
Crossbow - Cometaric (Shifta/Zodial)

This setup is nice, and once I lvl the two Ultimate PAs on here, I'll be all set.



ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! 8* wand ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!

HA!

*cries*

[Astarin]

Kubara wands.

I was looking at those. While the Cometarac has tons of PP and a lower TP requirement, has anyone looked at the 6* Kubara wands? The Wandoc and Wandrac have terrible stats! They have lower PP and TP stats than the 6* Yohmei wand (Crozara), but with the same TP requirement. WTF?

Anyway, my point isn't to rant, but to ask if anyone here has bought them. Do they grind exceptionally well (thus making them feasible for a GT) or are they as useless as they appear?

[Dymalos]

On 2007-03-05 12:43, Deja wrote:
I recommend every Guntecher buys and synths a Cometaric (8* kubara wand) for their buffing/debuffing. It has 130 more PP than majimra, and since buffs/debuffs don't need TP...


That is absolutely terrible advice. For one thing, as an 8* weapon it's going to be rather expensive to recharge to speak nothing of actually acquiring one. A better idea would be to use Wandras, as you said TP for buffs doesn't matter, Wandras are free off newbie Newmans, and really inexpensive to recharge. For buffs, I run with only 2 +10 Wandras and they have enough PP for even the longest of missions.

[juno-6]

Bow
Twin Handgun
Twin Handgun
Twin Handgun
xbow/ wand (resta/reverser)
mechgun/ wand (debuffs)

carry like 5 extra resta wands and another bow.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-03-06 14:54 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-03-06 14:55 ]</font>

[Blanky]

I've noticed alot of you posting your weapon palettes, and in them you have Rifle AND Bow. Any specific reason for this?

I just wonder because usually one carries a Rifle or Bow around to deal SE4 to the big guys, but the bullets do exactly the same thing, so why level 2 seperate bullets that have the same effect? I guess if you only have certain elements on those weapons, like level 21 Burn on Rifle and 21 Virus on Bow, that could be your reason, but it seems easier to me to just use 1 or the other.

[juno-6]

On 2007-03-06 15:05, Blanky wrote:
I've noticed alot of you posting your weapon palettes, and in them you have Rifle AND Bow. Any specific reason for this?

I just wonder because usually one carries a Rifle or Bow around to deal SE4 to the big guys, but the bullets do exactly the same thing, so why level 2 seperate bullets that have the same effect? I guess if you only have certain elements on those weapons, like level 21 Burn on Rifle and 21 Virus on Bow, that could be your reason, but it seems easier to me to just use 1 or the other.








im guessing the bow is being used more for its armor piercing abilities on big guys and the rifle is the one being used for Lv4 SE's(faster firing rate and blah blah blah).

[iono]

Bow is better in general but rifle is better against some things. Bow has slightly better dps but slightly lower debuff chance whereas rifle has slightly better debuff rate but slightly lower damage per second. Personally I'm finding rifles to not be all they're cracked up to be though when you can use both rifle and bow.

So basically I have all 6 elements of bow bullets but only dark & ice rifles. I'm seriously considering deleting the ice rifle for killer shot. That's another thing - rifle gets killer shot but bow is better with normal elements for me. I wasn't going to get killer shot but today I just soloed Fanatics S to hunt for a degahna cannon. Wow is that annoying!!! And I hear it lands relatively well on robots so I may just pick it up.

And another reason for me to hold onto rifle bullets (at least just dark shot) is so I can play a fortegunner, too. Though in the same token, having bow bullets will let you play a Protranser.

[Deja]

Like money is a problem in this game...(if you are Xbox360 look over this)

PS2/PC players, buy and synth a Cometaric

[Jey]

Dude, what are you, a newman? My human was barely able to equip a Lidra (same req. as Cometaracs) until he was lv67 GT6 around. I don't even think casts can hope to equip them even at GT10 lv100.

That being said... I do really like them and do recommend them if you can equip them. Huge PP pool and higher PP regen than other wands (8PP vs. 7).

And man, Killer Shot is a pain in the ass for guntechers. Not only the PP cost (48PP a shot at lv21 . . . zomg) but the incapacitation doesn't seem to kick in nearly as often as it does when I skill it up on my fG1. Somehow I think that just virusing everything then sitting back for 30s would be 'faster' for me.

[SolomonGrundy]

Bow is the Lazy guntecher boss killer. Rifle is generally getting TO the boss.

There are 2 fire Bosses, so of course pepole gravitate twds ice for the bow.
I started my CAST Guntecker before light and dark bullets were out, so I have a Fire rifle when everyone was screaming "Get SE4 fire you newb!" with virus out, I now have a Dark Bow, and a Fire rifle, but I usually only have one on my palette at a time.

[iono]

People gravitate toward ice bow because ice is the best element in the game. That goes for both support and for damage dealing. Unless you only live on Clyez City 4th Floor. ^^;

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-07 00:13, iono wrote:
People gravitate toward ice bow because ice is the best element in the game. That goes for both support and for damage dealing. Unless you only live on Clyez City 4th Floor. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif



Which you gotta admit is a nice place to live if you like meseta and easy mission points...

Wile ice is te best element in the game, ice bow is not really the best way to deal with the masses. I use ice dual handguns, and ice shotguns.

[SolomonGrundy]

Question for the CAST guntecker folks: I've been mulling this over for a while now, and I've come to some realizations.

There are only a few advantages of Guntecher over ForteGunner.

Bow.
Deband.
Debuffs.
Reverser.
S rank weapons if/when we ever get them.

Our resta is so poor it would be better to use a dimate/star atomizer for much of the life of the character. Shifta, and Zodial are not that helpful - Fortegunner Stats are more than 15% higher in ATP and ATA (not to mention HP, and EVP).

Gunteckers lose out on the PP savings of being a ForteGunner, AND grenade launchers which shred bosses better than bows, I hear.

So, my question is, do you (CAST Gunteckers) still think it's worth it? Even with some of the limitations

[iono]

On 2007-03-07 10:09, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Wile ice is te best element in the game, ice bow is not really the best way to deal with the masses. I use ice dual handguns, and ice shotguns.



You're talking as if you've even got an SE4 gun. I've been sitting back and being civil about this but come on guy, you have almost no experience with the class. You've been talking as if you have a "holier than thou" complex when you're just a lowbie GT. Level up to a decent level and THEN come back to talk. You're just a lowbie and you're already having doubts about your class. Hell you spent almost the whole time in this thread talking about how much GTs should tend toward support. Someone tells you a beast GT can heal well at a high level. You confessed that you're not even very good at leveling up. So what do you do? You make a low level CAST GT and try to set it up to support. Of course you're having doubts about the class!! I saw it coming over a week ago.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-07 18:04, iono wrote:

On 2007-03-07 10:09, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Wile ice is te best element in the game, ice bow is not really the best way to deal with the masses. I use ice dual handguns, and ice shotguns.



You're talking as if you've even got an SE4 gun. I've been sitting back and being civil about this but come on guy, you have almost no experience with the class. You've been talking as if you have a "holier than thou" complex when you're just a lowbie GT. Level up to a decent level and THEN come back to talk. You're just a lowbie and you're already having doubts about your class. Hell you spent almost the whole time in this thread talking about how much GTs should tend toward support. Someone tells you a beast GT can heal well at a high level. You confessed that you're not even very good at leveling up. So what do you do? You make a low level CAST GT and try to set it up to support. Of course you're having doubts about the class!! I saw it coming over a week ago.



a) I have a level 60 Beast, the Guntecher is my ALT.
b) What does SE 4 have to do with anything?
c) I may be a lowbie with the GT, but that does not mean I can't see the forest for the trees
d) I never said GTs should be set up for support, I said they take advantage of damage via SEs rather than brute force damage from weapons.
e) The only way to make it from lowbie (you do realize how insulting that is, btw), to high level is to like the Class you are playing.
f) Cast GTs are "special" in thier need for extra slots, AND head slots.

[Syanaide]

We don't really "need" extra slots. I typically only get around to using my SUV once, sometimes twice per mission, and that's not much to miss out on. They mainly just shave 5-10 seconds off your time.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-03-07 12:28, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Question for the CAST guntecker folks:
There are only a few advantages of Guntecher over ForteGunner.

Bow.
Deband.
Debuffs.
Reverser.
S rank weapons if/when we ever get them.

Our resta is so poor it would be better to use a dimate/star atomizer for much of the life of the character. Shifta, and Zodial are not that helpful - Fortegunner Stats are more than 15% higher in ATP and ATA (not to mention HP, and EVP).

Gunteckers lose out on the PP savings of being a ForteGunner, AND grenade launchers which shred bosses better than bows, I hear.

So, my question is, do you (CAST Gunteckers) still think it's worth it? Even with some of the limitations


Well, as a Caseal GT, I've been asking that same question myself. I intend to try out fG after I max out GT 10 to see the differences myself. But so far, I'm liking the GT's role just fine. My playstyle has always been one of the support role. And the uses of buff/debuffs suite me perfectly (even if they only are capped at 10). But most of all, it's the resta that I thank the sega gawds for. It may not be much (I'm lvl 50, GT 5. And I heal for about 270), but it's vital when I'm soloing with npc's to level up my SLOWLY evolving crossbow bullets.

That, and I find it most useful to keep teammates out of the yellow and give them enough time to eat a di or monomate.

Plus like others have stated already, I'm starting to notice the difference that a lvl 10 debuff can do in an A or S rank missions. Better results than the buffs we get.

Plus I'd hope that the cast's higher HP and DEF(if I remember correctly) would help us out for close up combat since I like debuffing and crossbows, compared to other GT's.

Oh, and you left out cards from your list.
As weapons pallete goes, we're sacrificing G Launchers for wands, long bows, and cards, right?
Well, if you're playing the fG and GT's career as sole SE roles, then I'm glad that GT's have access to these since they level quicker than guns. I'm level 50 already, and I'm STILL working on 'n off to get at least ONE of my rifle bullets to 21! Guess crossbows are eating up all my time.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif'

[akratic]

I was a 70/10 cast fortegunner and decided to try out Guntecher since I love dual handguns (I also have 3 xbow pa's over 21). I'm now a shade under level 6 guntecher. These are just my thoughts on this based on how I play. I have a friend who is a cast gt who prefers gt - I don't.

At this point, guntecher is primarily useful for when I party without a fortetecher. I can heal my fortefighter friends and give us all shifta/zodial/deband. Granted, I cannot support a team at a high level, but it is awfully nice for everyone to save on mates - topping off after fights and the like.

Other than that, though, I am not a big fan of guntecher. With a fortetecher around, I feel more like a gimp than an asset. I think a lot of that has to do with what I was used to as a fortegunner.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: akratic on 2007-03-08 14:00 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

thanks guys for your honest feedback. I do appreciate you guys taking the time to reply. I'll stick with GT for now and see how it goes. My goal is to heal 250, perhaps when I can equip and grind B rank wands I'll achieve that goal!

[BahnKnakyu]

Don't forget to find yourself a Phantom Line if possible. That combo is really sweet, and you do real good damage against stuff with it.

For Cast GTs having a hard time with resta, make yourself a +10 W'ganba and most importantly, GET YOURSELF RETIER. It'll help your party more than it helps you, but that's only a good thing, really. It'll make your resta slightly more effective. It took me two hours to grind up a couple +10 W'ganbas, but it was well worth the trouble.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-08 20:59, BahnKnakyu wrote:
Don't forget to find yourself a Phantom Line if possible. That combo is really sweet, and you do real good damage against stuff with it.

For Cast GTs having a hard time with resta, make yourself a +10 W'ganba and most importantly, GET YOURSELF RETIER. It'll help your party more than it helps you, but that's only a good thing, really. It'll make your resta slightly more effective. It took me two hours to grind up a couple +10 W'ganbas, but it was well worth the trouble.



I have 2 w'ganba's @ +5, but cannot even equip the GRM version (71 TP required). I'll be learning Megistral when it is released, and so will get the benefit of of retier. Until then I'll stick to eating the item (I have TONs). What is the difference in healing that you have notices with this buff in effect?

[Deja]

For all guntechers with pure Range PM, go for 432. Her crossbow hits hard, has jellen, and is lvl 21. She hit (430 x 3) damage at Linear A.

[SaiSpagS]

Recently aquired enough PA Frags to consider getting an Ult PA soon but I really can't decide which one.
Here's my current Pallet:

Shotgun
Bow
Bow
Xbow/Wand
Xbow/Wand
Xbow/Wand

Imaginitive I know but I love the Xbows =D

So, how is the Xbox PA? Is the damage gained from loss of health any good? Do you have to have a lot of health lost? Is it worth ditching the element and status effect of my other PAs for?

And the Bow skill. I can't figure out if it works out at more damage or less. The rate of fire is slower and there's no element (Bows get pretty sick elemental %s) so I'm really struggling to see if this is a + or a -.

That only really leaves the shotgun, which I don't particularly fancy as it's only enemy ATA down which, although probably useful, isn't as usefull as elemental % and the almost guarenteed status effect that a shotgun gives.

So basically Xbow or Bow?

Although saying that I am hearing very good things about the Twin Pistol Ultimate, and I could swap my shotgun out for those as I basically have 3 mini-shotties any ways.

Argh, damn thinking.

Anyways, any ideas comments or suggestions???

[AC9breaker]

For the love of god Avoid Bow PA at all cost. Check out this thread (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=136470&forum=20&start=0) Then check out THIS thread (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=136932&forum=11&2)

[SaiSpagS]

Well that completelr rules out the bow PA.

I think I'm just going to get Twin Mayalee and swap out my Shotgun, the proc rate sounds great on it and Zalure is pretty handy.

Glad I didn't get Bow, maybe crossbow next if it gets awesome at 21.

EDIT::

Went for Twin Mayalee in the end and am very impressed with it. 100% Proc rate on any mob (even stuck with one shot on S Tengohs). The damage is ok but that's not what I'm using it for so doesn't really matter, Acc is also pretty good, rarely ever miss 2 shots in a row (so atleast one bullet will get through and stick the zalure)

Also, it means I can stick Zalure on everything in a room very quickly, this combined with shifta gives my crossbow shots a huge boost individually, when multiplied its great. Woot.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SaiSpagS on 2007-03-11 06:19 ]</font>

[Raysa]

Edit:Deleted Nevermind it >.<



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raysa on 2007-03-11 08:51 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

dammit, no one's got the good on the crossbow ultimate PA yet. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

I'm especially curious about megiastride and this as a neat little combo.

[imfanboy]

Well, I added a section on the ultimate arts...


*sits back and waits for the flames on what he said about Killer Shot and Yak Zagenga to roll in*

[Blanky]

The biggest problem with Yak Zagenga for me is that when you're the healer, you never have time to keep your HP down enough to see some big numbers. Since you have to heal people you're also healing yourself.

Makes me think this PA might do better in a soloing situation.

[iono]

On 2007-03-11 18:37, imfanboy wrote:
Well, I added a section on the ultimate arts...


*sits back and waits for the flames on what he said about Killer Shot and Yak Zagenga to roll in*



I think I was the only one who did any flaming and it wasn't at you, it was at Grundy. And the only reason I did it was because he is trolling. As far as I'm aware you've got real experience with the class, albeit from the opposite end of the spectrum (newman vs beast) so while I don't always agree with you, I have enough respect to take what you say seriously.

I pretty much agree with the Rifle PA but I haven't gotten it to try out yet. I'm considering getting it because I have a retarded tendecy to solo Fanatics S from time to time. ;-; For a cannon of course! I wasn't actually planning to get any of the new PAs because they all have glaring weaknesses, but the Twin guns really proved to be very very good.

Ah yeah on the PM subject, if you have a 420 either one of the new PMs has a pretty good thing going for it. 421 is all claws (single/double) and she definitely feels like she's doing a lot more damage than 420. 422 I'm not that sure about but she turns evil and uses dual fists. No more polite little kitty. D: She doesn't seem to spam PAs as much but her normal hits actually seem to do a lot of damage.

[Raysa]

So I recently changed to GunTecher and I want a rating on palette.
My line up goes like this :
Twin Handguns - Twin Freeze(Ice)
Shotgun - Light Bullet
Rifle - Dark Bullet
Card(earth based)/Wand(resta/reverser)
Bow - Fire Based
Crossbow(DarkBased)/Wand(Shifta/Deband)
I wanted to fit in a lightning element..but I feel pretty solid with this structure for the rest of the game. Anyone agree or have disagreements?

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-13 03:10, Raysa wrote:
So I recently changed to GunTecher and I want a rating on palette.
My line up goes like this :
Twin Handguns - Twin Freeze(Ice)
Shotgun - Light Bullet
Rifle - Dark Bullet
Card(earth based)/Wand(resta/reverser)
Bow - Fire Based
Crossbow(DarkBased)/Wand(Shifta/Deband)
I wanted to fit in a lightning element..but I feel pretty solid with this structure for the rest of the game. Anyone agree or have disagreements?



I'd replace the x box wih dark for ligtning if you want crowd control. in areas where lightning is not that helpful (like anyplace you would rather have monsters attacking than casting) you can switch back to dark. Also, I notice there is no melee weapon slot. I like to keep on on hand to pitch in with the large mobs.

[Vay]

I'd like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Machinegun PA.

On Labs S2, with 2 Photon Charges, I can back a Jarba into a corner and keep blasting away while the rest of the party takes down the other. Often times, I kill mine first then come to help the party finish of theirs. We're the weakest Machinegun users, but even in our hands the PA can be completely broken if applied in this way. (Also works on Bils and other large creatures not strong to bullets.)

Yak Zagenga is solid damage for us GT's, it has much higher % than the elemental crossbows, and is something you can use if for some reason you have several gunners in the party and damage is a must. Even at its weakest (full HP) its still stronger than an elemental shot.

[iono]

On 2007-03-13 03:10, Raysa wrote:
So I recently changed to GunTecher and I want a rating on palette.
My line up goes like this :
Twin Handguns - Twin Freeze(Ice)
Shotgun - Light Bullet
Rifle - Dark Bullet
Card(earth based)/Wand(resta/reverser)
Bow - Fire Based
Crossbow(DarkBased)/Wand(Shifta/Deband)
I wanted to fit in a lightning element..but I feel pretty solid with this structure for the rest of the game. Anyone agree or have disagreements?



I'd swap lightning into the shotgun. I consider lightning to be the best one for that gun because I always ended up meleeing with it. So I'd be standing there stuck, unable to move because the shotgun wouldnt let me move much and I'd take a lot of hits. Until I picked up on using lightning. 3-5 hits on one monster almost guarantees you'll shock them really quick and a shocked monster does not hit you in the face. Confuse isn't really that great because even if you confuse the monster, you're probably going to end up meleeing with it half the time and a confused monster is still going to hit you.

If you want to use light in my opinion the weapon to use it on is fans. Fans are a gun you should be using on caster monsters or flyers because they allow you to strafe and are very easy to aim with while doing it. All of those monsters spam techs as their main form of attack. Unlike silence (earth), confuse completely prevents a casting monster from hitting you with their techs. I don't know why sega made it this way but confuse is actually better at silencing a monster than silence is. D: They will still try to cast their techs on you, but it just goes right through you and does no damage at all.

Then you could swap earth onto the crossbow if you want earth for damage, but I'd just as soon stay with dark if I were you. Get earth when you max out one of the bullets you already have.

[Raysa]

Hmm thanks. I swapped my Shotgun with a Lightning Bullet and my fan with a light bullet. It seems more reasonable. I left Dark on my Crossbow because of Virus Spread http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-03-13 05:29, Vay wrote:
I'd like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Machinegun PA.

On Labs S2, with 2 Photon Charges, I can back a Jarba into a corner and keep blasting away while the rest of the party takes down the other. Often times, I kill mine first then come to help the party finish of theirs. We're the weakest Machinegun users, but even in our hands the PA can be completely broken if applied in this way. (Also works on Bils and other large creatures not strong to bullets.)

Interesting!
I was hoping there was a place for mechguns for us GT's since it's an offhand weapon. Then we'd have to explore the differences more between the mechgun and lazer cannon PAs.

Since lazers goes through mobs, you'd don't have to worry about the lack of mobility since they'd most likely be on the ground, right? How's the delay on lazers? Not as bad as a shotgun, but still slower than a rifle I'd imagine? Maybe as slow as a longbow? But imfanboy already mentions that it's still fast enough to cause stagger on large enemies.

How much better is the mechgun compared to the lazer then? You're saying that not only the mechguns will cause stagger as well, but also do decent damage on the large enemies compared to the lazer cause you're unloading on them? That's the benefit, plus mobility, right? How do you feel about the mid air turning on small/med mobs? You're missing a lot more cause of this? (cause imfanboy mentioned he tested this with his figunner. But what about GT's higher ATA? Especially on a cast GT?).
But then again, if they're already on the ground it's served it's purpose right? Adding damage while in the air is just an added bonus, no?
Perhaps it's best to reserve the PP JUST to keep them off their feet and not worry about the damage?
Cause I can totally see this as a good stradegy to give you time to safely cast a tech while you're close to the fighters and not worry about getting hit.

Plus BOTH will NOT send enemies scattered around, thus harder to line up for fighters and techers right? They both just send them up soaring then on their ass on the ground, right?

Any more thoughts on the mechguns vs. lazers Ultimate PA, anyone?




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-03-13 10:56 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-13 05:29, Vay wrote:
I'd like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Machinegun PA.

On Labs S2, with 2 Photon Charges, I can back a Jarba into a corner and keep blasting away while the rest of the party takes down the other. Often times, I kill mine first then come to help the party finish of theirs. We're the weakest Machinegun users, but even in our hands the PA can be completely broken if applied in this way. (Also works on Bils and other large creatures not strong to bullets.)

Yak Zagenga is solid damage for us GT's, it has much higher % than the elemental crossbows, and is something you can use if for some reason you have several gunners in the party and damage is a must. Even at its weakest (full HP) its still stronger than an elemental shot.



Are GTs the weakest machinegun users? I would think the level 30 bullets would offset the lower ATP, and the increased accuracy would draw less "0"s.

About Yak Zagenga: how does the damage evolve at 11,and 21? Also what is the PP cost per shot compared to elemental bullets. Finally, how sharp is the ramp up in damage as you get lower on the HP scale?

[imfanboy]

I'll ask my friend with Zagenga about that when he gets on, later.

But as far as GT goes, with lv 30 bullets it matters jack-all when compared to a figunner of the same level/race/class level. The higher your native ATP, the more fuel for the gun; and a 10% elemental modifier and 10% more atp multiplier doesn't go very far when compared to a figunner that has close to 150 more ATP than you - I see figunners dealing around 200-250 damage PER BULLET whereas my GT does only about 90-110.

For beast and cast figunners, as I said, your ATP is high enough that you could do some damage with it, but still... we have stronger single-handed guns.


And I was using Mayalee Fury with my Figunner in Labs as well, Vay, so I know exactly the tactic you're talking about: get behind the jarba and keep spraying it.

Here's my thoughts on Fury v. Prism:

Fury's good, no two ways about it. Flinging dangerous enemies about at will, with a decent range, without having to wait til the 2nd or 3rd combo of a PA, is necessary in difficult S-rank missions, and will become MORE necessary as more S2 and *whew!* S3 missions come out. Also, because it's on a one-handed weapon, you can knock the enemy over then smack them with a saber/claw/dagger. Also, you can keep up the pressure so that large, dangerous enemies are in a state of perma-stagger, like you see during an SUV - the staggers are coming so fast the you can't tell one from the next.

HOWEVER, for the purposes of the guntecher, Mayalee Prism is better. (for figunners, though, it's top-notch; that's why I got it!) Lasers fire marginally slower than a bow or rifle, which means that while you can't perma-stagger a big monster, you can certainly get 2 shots off while it's recovering from being staggered, and about to cast dambarta/go into a spin. Because it has a much higher accuracy, you can shoot from the sides and even from the front of a mob while being sure of knocking at least half of them down, maybe all.

Plus, you can keep shooting, and keep small/medium mobs flying away, while they're on the ground; Mayalee Fury doesn't allow that because you'll miss if you try and shoot them in midair.

Also, fury causes knockUP, Prism causes knockBACK - which means that you can herd small mobs, and the fighters will thank you for doing that. Also, you can nail packs of worms with it and keep them consistently stunned, whereas with Fury that's a real, REAL hard thing to do. <_<

Fury eats through the ammo MUCH faster than Prism does, as well - I'll empty out two mechguns in a room keeping just one big monster staggered, whereas I can go through a laser cannon in 3-4 rooms simply because I'm using it much more carefully. While that may not matter to some, seeing as how they'll pop photon charges like there's no end to their money, I'm a more frugal soul.

The thing that clinched it for me, though, was this thought: if an enemy mob is on the ground or flying in the air, I don't HAVE to have a wand ready with Resta, so why have a knockup skill on a one-handed gun with my GT?

So, advantages of Fury:
One-handed
Faster
Keeps big mobs staggered better
knockup instead of knockback (so mobs don't get spread around)
More damage (you CAN kill with it)


Advantages of Prism:
Penetrating
FAR better ATA
More versatile
knockback (to herd mobs in a direction, say against a wall, so the fighters can pound on them more easily)
Better PP useage



I'm not dumping on your choice of Mayalee Fury; like I said, I got it for my figunner and I know it's good and useful. But for a broader spectrum of team play, Mayalee Prism does more jobs and does them better than Fury can.

[Vay]

Fury and Prism are designed for two entirely different purposes, though. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Would you ever use a Laser Cannon on single targets? Would you ever use a Machine Gun to spray an entire group (lol tagging)?

I have been debating on whether to get Killer Shot or the cannon PA next, only 30 frags away from 90 (yes, Killer's 99, I know this). Cannon will let your party deal with some of the most annoying enemies in the game with ease (Golmoro's, you know, the light guys in the Parum Relics missions, and any jumping enemy like that). What's the PP useage on each shot at 1, 11, and 21? Thanks in advance for your reply.

I can answer your questions about Zagenga, actually. Been at work so I haven't been able to reply to this thread since my last post! The range on this PA is even shorter than a normal Xbow shot, to note.

At 1, PP is 12 per shot, the ATP increase is hardly there at all. (Gets stronger as you lose more health). Like all Xbow PA's, it's awful 1-10.

At Status Level 2, PP is 16 per shot, the ATP increase is more noticeable, but still nothing fantastic.

At Status Level 3, 21+, PP is 20 per shot for us GT's, the ATP increase is pretty dramatic, and it fires a 3-shot spread with short range. Even missing 600 of my 1700ish health, my bolts will do around 300 damage each, criticals will of course go up into the mid 400's. Multiply that by 3 on a single target, and you're looking at very impressive damage from an offhanded weapon. Even "unbuffed" at 21, the ATP % is so good (At level 24, gives 159%... level 26 Yak Megiga gives me 141% for those keeping score at home), it's worth using if you have plenty of gunners. I highly recommend it to my fellow crossbow fanatics!

I pretty much play one character, too, Ima, so I'm going to end up with Prism eventually. Fury's damage will be nice at 30, though, with gaining 2% ATP a level (well, from what I've seen so far. Mine's 12.) I also don't think I'd used 10 Photon Charges in a WEEK 'til I got Fury, now I'm popping about 5 per Labs S2 run. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif Oh, and I don't put a wand with my mechgun, and it only goes in my pallette when I'm expecting large creatures in a given mission. Easier to use a Palleted charge that way to keep up a constant string of bullets on a big.

EDIT: Also, in reply to Solomon's post about the level 30 Mgun bullets and the accuracy issue: Mayalee Fury gets up to a whopping 3% accuracy at level 21, and doesn't get any better. :/ Like Ima said, Base ATP factors a lot more into Mechguns (since there's maybe a 50 ATP difference from 1* to 9*) than other firearms. GT's have the lowest ATP out of the 3 expert Mechgun users, so, that's where I drew the "weakest" Mgun users comment from. If you look at the S ranks speculated on coming out, even the 12* Mechgun doesn't have a ton of ATP. A Fighgunner using a 9* would still do more damage, unfortunately. But we're mostly support as GT's, so that's alright with me.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vay on 2007-03-13 14:23 ]</font>

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-03-13 13:08, imfanboy wrote:
The thing that clinched it for me, though, was this thought: if an enemy mob is on the ground or flying in the air, I don't HAVE to have a wand ready with Resta, so why have a knockup skill on a one-handed gun with my GT?

So, advantages of Fury:
One-handed
Faster
Keeps big mobs staggered better
knockup instead of knockback (so mobs don't get spread around)
More damage (you CAN kill with it)


Advantages of Prism:
Penetrating
FAR better ATA
More versatile
knockback (to herd mobs in a direction, say against a wall, so the fighters can pound on them more easily)
Better PP useage



I'm not dumping on your choice of Mayalee Fury; like I said, I got it for my figunner and I know it's good and useful. But for a broader spectrum of team play, Mayalee Prism does more jobs and does them better than Fury can.



Thanks for the great feedback everyone. I love this thread! It's so informative!
To better explain my stradegy of Fury + Wand (on paper, haven't tested it yet). Since mechguns eat up PP so much, it's more reasonable to think that we'll have to rely on the wands a bit more to give the Fury to recharge. And to use it sparingly, just to knockup to give you a chance to debuff or resta IN close up battle, rather than out of battle. Why not resta? So I save a fighter a monomate or 2. I thought a GT's role is to support everyone else so that they get to deal the REAL damage, while we help out with whatever we can, no? Well, I was thinking it's more for debuffs anyways.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
But if you say that the knockup won't likely to hit unless I'm hitting from behind, then I'll have to play around with it myself to see if it's viable.
At least that's how I play with my other offhand + wand combos. How realistic it is to wait for the PP to recharge on mechguns I don't know. But I've noticed with random games I join, the fT usually take over the role of buffs, leaving me to take over debuffs. fT, tend to just nuke during battle.

[Vay]

It's a pain to wait for the PP to recharge on the Mechguns when level 1-10 Fury eats up 15 PP a second, and 18 PP a second at level 11-20, and the recharge isn't very good at all. For some reason, I've noticed, on the first tic of the recharge every blue moon it will shoot up by 100+ PP or so, but that's a freak thing and probably a glitch.

That's an idea, I like using it how you described it as well chi. It's one way I like to handle Gazorans in HIVE, just knock 'em up, let melee close in on 'em and sink their teeth in. It's got a lot of uses, just have to be inventive with it... in that case, it's good with the wand. In the jarba/bildevear slaying-sense, it's best to set it by itself in the palette so you can just toss a charge into it and keep the string of hits going. Also, I know it's not a lot of damage, but it keeps the Jarba/bil locked in a perma-stagger, basically neutralizing one enemy while either you kill yours or your group kills the other. The less megid/dambarta going around the better, no?

Just practice with Fury, chibilegolas, you'll get used to circling around the back of enemies plenty. One way to perfect this tactic is fight a lot of bees! Will make you a better player overall.

[SolomonGrundy]

I should clarify one thing. When we were talking about macine gun damage, I was referencing typical elemental bullets (ice, fire, etc). You get far more ATA than 3% with these bullet types...so I figured the extra accuracy + extra element + extra damage modifier for level 30 bullets would offset the 100ish ATP difference between FiGunners and Gunteckers. I think the number 1 slot goes to ForteGunners...am I mistaken?

[Vay]

Fighgunners still end up doing more, 10% extra on top of our ATP doesn't make up for the raw ATP they have +20%. Either way, we're the weakest with the machineguns. #1 would go to Fortegunners, 'cause their ATP is considerably better than a GT's. Even as level 2 Fortegunner, I only have 7 less ATP than my 10 GT.

[imfanboy]

bah, I don't like using knockdown PAs on Bees - because once they get up they ALWAYS change direction, whereas if they stay up they never do.

Mizuras are different, of course, but..

[Jey]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif^ bugges always rotate to face their aggro (usually me, thank you client-side monster movement #)@#), dunno what you mean there.

Interesting thing I found out about Mayalee Hit (handgun fragment PA) that wasn't mentioned, was that it can hit 2 targets with one bullet. They have to be basically shoulder-to-shoulder crosshairs, but it can hit two.

[SolomonGrundy]

Can I get some feedback on what element bullets people use for machinegun?

I was (see my sad, sad topic post in this section) tinnking light was a great choice: confuse low level mobs, robots and most importantly, Gazorans. Too bad gazorans need SE2.

So now I am thinking fire? Use it on the barta casting golems in Neudiaz for disruption. Use it on ageetas for damage, and use it on Jishargas another way to distribute damage while my dagger PA recharges.

The other thought was dark, since the % damage is the same at bullet SE1, as it is SE4

What do you guys use?

[iono]

Well it's got such a low SE you're probably not even going to want it for status. Gohmons actually have some pretty nasty EVP, I mean it's not even remotely like a bug but it's still up there. And overall fire isn't a great damage dealing element and SE1 burn is really meh. Lightning will land pretty often even with a machine gun due to the rate of fire and even with a low level SE shock, it still does the same thing as SE4 only it doesn't last as long. Which is like so what since the machine gun'll land it in a few shots anyways. Problem with lightning is if you're the type to hang out at Parum because lightning weapons there really suck. D:

If you really dont wanna do lightning, I still don't see light as a good idea because LL/Hive monsters also have some pretty decent evasion, or at least the Deljabans do. I'd say go with ice, get the elemental % and have a good time in most areas cuz fire shows up everywhere except the colony. The only really bad thing about ice on it is, with SE1, you're going to break your own ice almost instantly. Then again it'll renew itself pretty quick too, although for SE lightning is pretty much the way to go on low SE guns like mechs and shotguns.

[Vay]

Lightning and ice are the way to go for reasons stated by iono. Good post. (Also, lightning doesn't hurt too bad on Parum... you can still pump the bullets into the slower fire creatures and maybe land a shock on some. If I had to pick one, I'd go Lightning.)

[juno-6]

i got lightning on mine, its especially useful in moatoob and i like shocking little mobs like ageets or whtever they're called. since were on this topic, what's a good element for the cannon. i got 2 cannons 60 PA frags and dont wanna' wait til i get the ult pa to use em.

[iono]

I have an Ice Prism at lvl 21 and I don't regret it. It's pretty. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif The thing with normal Laser Cannon bullets is they're really horrible for their SE. The rate of fire is low and chances are if you really wanna land your SE on a lot of monsters, you're just better off trying it with a shotgun or decent level crossbow. You're gonna only want to use Laser Cannon for killing a lot of targets in a row (and that may not happen much depending on how you play), so the main point of a LC is to do damage. Well then what elements are good for damage? Ice of course! Laser Cannon isn't a very accurate gun, in fact it's probably the 2nd least accurate gun after machine guns so you dont want to use it on enemies like at Hive or Linear Line. Dark could be pretty nice at Agata because the monsters there spawn in clumps allll the time but then it would be terrible in colony missions. >< Lightning would be nice since you say you do moatoob but only in System Defense series missions so you can use it on the rats.

Erm I dont know if I said it well enough but Laser Cannons are the kind of gun you want to use on a big clumps of little guys, so you might wanna pick the element that kills anything that spawns in clumps and isn't too threatening. The biggest baddest thing I'd ever use a laser cannon on is a Vanda, pretty much everything else I use it on are rats, cows or those little dogs from lab. Brown laser is ewww though so dont do earth. xD

[Vay]

Curious, what's the elemental % end up as on a Cannon PA at 21?

[iono]

16%, nothing too big D:

[Vay]

Ah, that's a shame. Oh well, always good to know I suppose.

[juno-6]

oooh, thx a bunch iono, dark sounds really good for relics since the only dark weapon i have rite nao is my xbow. i knew this place was good for something lol.

[chibiLegolas]

I'm lvl 60/ GT 9 Caseal (just to clarify a few things).
Maylee Prism - Laser Cannons Question:

I finally gathered enough PA frags to buy myself my 1st ultimate PA. And decided to go with maylee prism for the lazer cannon 1st before gathering enough for Maylee Fury and played around with it for a few days now. But I just don't get all the hype on this.
And I've come to the conclusion then perhaps I just plain suck with lazer cannons.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif'
So many here say that it's good crowd control, nearly replaces grenade launchers, and near stun locks large enemies. But I just can't seem to use it to those effects as you guys stated. I run maps where I know there would be a great line up of mobs. But when they spawn, I find out that I'm just either a smigg'n off aim to get the rest of the mob. Or use it in corridors and I'd end up only hitting 3 per shot. So in group games, I'm basically running around, trying to practice to round up mobs into a corner for techers and fighters, but since I can only get 3/4 enemies to knock back and I run around to get the enemies I missed, the original knocked back mobs get up and start spreading out once again. So I keep doing this till I run out of PP (which is quick on my 7* laser), I look at the over head map, and I feel like I didn't do anything. They're STILL spread about in the end!
Maybe it's cause I'm doing in in Labs S2 runs where those dam dogs are always moving and circling about? Maybe it's cause my random teammates are spreading their own PA's and aggros to undermind what I'm trying to do? I dunno.
But I do have better results solo'n. (No distractions for the mob to go after.) I do eventually get them in a corner, but I still only hit 3/4 per shot max. (usually only 2/3). Sometimes I thought I got 6/7 aligned correctly to send them back (half of them are already on the floor). So I thought I can fling the grounded ones back again, along with a few still standing. But it doesn't seem to work all the time. (am I firing too quickly? Too slowly? I have to wait for them to get back up again to knock back once more?) Then I noticed the red cross hairs and they seem super sensitive as mobs are in constant motion. So maybe I have 5 lighted up 1 fraction of a sec, then 2 highlighted the next. WHAT THE HELL?!
But I could of sworn I'd hit a few grounded enemies back again without the crosshair lighted. But this doesn't seem reliable at all. It only seems to work half the time.
I feel so slow and clumbsy with this weapon. I know if I could just strafe a tinsy bit to the right/left, I'll get the rest I missed, but can't do so. (or can I? I thought I tried...maybe not?).

Ok. I suck at crowd control. Onward to practice stun locking enemies. I see it's some what effective. But once again, I hardly get any to line up to make this really worth while. I thought the last block had so many clustered at times, it would be perfect to run up and stun lock a few. But once again, I find that the width or sensitivity of the cross hair for the lazer to be difficult. Ok. Once again, I suck at aiming more than 1 enemy with this thing. I could at least stun lock 1 jarbas, right? Well, after a few hits I've noticed that I'd be pushing these guys ever so slightly. And slightly enough to get out of range of the damned sensitive line of sight on this god forsaken gun!
Time to reposition/realign myself without getting megided/barta this close. But then, isn't that counter productive to what stun locking is? And I wanna be dam sure that they're stunned for me to be this close to them.

But so far, I find that long bows and twin guns to be more effective on these guys. I can hit at a safe distance, cause minor stun, and still have my mobility to dodge their megid.

I feel as if I'm not using Maylee Prism correctly since so many here like it. What am I doing wrong? I feel as if Maylee Fury would of been 5x better than Maylee Prism cause of the sure nature of the targeting sensitivity on the weapon itself. Or perhaps I'm just too used to strafing with pistols/ xbows/ dual guns and I'm having a hard time adjusting to any other weapons. Please help.

Long Bows Question:
I know the primary damage GT's can do to large mobs is through our SE4. So naturally I automatically take out my longbow to try to stick it to them. Sometimes it'll stick within 5 hits and I get estatic and move onto the next large guy. Naturally...

But there are times (ok. Most of the time) where I could nearly empty out my Ulteri (9* bow?) and I've counted only sticking my virus 3/4 times. That's a WHOLE lot of shots that's not sticking! And the room's got well over more than 3/4 mobs to try to get virus on. Have I been doing something wrong here? Or has it been sticking more often than I thought and I just can't see the graphix of it cause of my distance? I'm pretty sure it's our SE4 vs. enemy's STA rating right? And has nothing to do with our ATA. Even so, I'm a cast dammit!

Other options?

Nothing more we can do? Cause I've been feeling kinda useless lately as a GT in the last room of labs. While I'm shooting from a safe distance trying to stick SE4 virus and only sticking it to 3 - 4 times on each spawn, I'm watching my poor team mates run around and get frozen, megided, run over, etc.

I'm too far away to run up to use a sol or star. Whenever I try, they either die or time's up on the freeze anyway and they break free naturally. Someone's low in HP? I'm too far and slow to load up my wand, run up and resta them to only heal about 250 anyways.

Debuff? I'm not sure if it's worth it in such a dangerous situation with a small radius and the posibility to be barta to death.

I've also played around with Burn G traps cause of the infrequent use of my virus sticking. But for the cost of them and the short time span of burn, I'm wondering if it's worth the $ and time.

Last theory I had was to occationally dish out my dual pistols to try and draw aggro away from techers and hunters. I don't know what the hell the rest of the party's doing, but whenever I'm engaged with a jarba (sp?) and a PA spamming fighter, they TOTALLY loose interest in me what so ever! Ok. So maybe I got their attention when they're switching out weapons for more PP. But then they totally ignore me once again once the fighter's doing what they do.

So am I suppost to assist techers instead? Or was it a perticular fighter's PA? Or maybe a combination + the distance I was in? They're only interested in ppl who are close to them? Though I do notice that I get their attention fine in Block 1 & 2. Do fighter's PA's draw more aggro than our dual pistols? Is there nothing we can do to help our fighter comrades?

Or am I only suppost to draw aggro when ppl are frozen? So that they won't get megid since I'm out of range for heal or sol atomizers?
How do you guys handle situations like this?

Sorry for the lengthy questions. But this has been bothering me for quite some time...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-03-23 11:37 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

PAs do get the monster's attention. But that's because they're landing hits after you. Remember, it's that factor that is saving your life here. If the hunters don't have a chance of pulling mobs from you, you're one dead Guntecher. The trick of course, is in the timing. You just need to shoot it during the last part of the PA so that your bullets land last. Then the monster will come your way.

The thing is, the slightly lazier way of pulling aggro is to just go full auto on your Twin Guns. Don't do it with Twin MayaLee (due to the PP bullet cost), but on a 2nd pair which has some other (smaller costing) element on them.

The very last Jarba room, yes requires your SE4 to affect them, and it's a bit hard when the luck of the draw has it so you have more trouble landing the effect on them. Usually, when we get the final room, before we cause an enemy spawn, it's usually agreed that I get a chance to go back and refill my guns. Even though, during a level, I generally stick with Twin Gunnies and Crossbows, saving the Bow only for the few big monsters that actually require it.

One the other hand, it's also precisely why I'm considering getting a 2nd bow that I just have in my inventory (one that I don't care about ATP for, I want strictly nothing but the highest PP I can get, for the price (Tengogh Bows aren't bad, in this area alone, to tell the truth)) That way, even with levels like this, I can have SE4 last for all the monsters that need SE4 to affect them.

[Jey]

It's tough to land SEs on Jarbas/Polies because of their high End. stat, even with SE4, which is precisely why you see everyone carpetbombing that last Lab room with traps. Burn doesn't last long, but you gotta realize that in that 10 seconds you just knocked off ~5000hp from each mob your trap hits there.

When I did Guntecher there, I would float around plugging things with Twin Mayalee (Polas there go absolutely nuts with Deband on, so the faster you remove the better), and using Twin Freeze and Frozen Fury on the Jarbas, while floating around the melee to be ready for resta/reverse, but far enough away so as not to MPK someone by triggering Gibarta.

[iono]

I don't consider it worthwhile to land SE4 on a Jarba. You could be doing more damage per second with an Ice Bow, Ice Twins, Ice Fan maybe even an Ice Crossbow if you're brave enough! SE4 is only worth it when the monster has range resistance. Ah yeah also SE4 Fire lands more often than SE4 Virus but it doesn't last nearly as long. For example, you could do 900-1300 with DoT + 300? per bow shot or you could do 800-1200 a shot with fan or crossbow and not have to luck out on it ~maybe~ landing.

As far as your laser cannon goes, I dont have the new PA for it but my ice prism is lvl 23 now so I got a good amount of experience with cannons in general.

1. If the point in your laser cannon is knockup, why use it on big groups of little guys? They rarely ever pose a threat. You'll have to level it up on that kind of thing but imo it'd be way better to use it on monsters that actually pose a threat, like Jarbas or casting monsters. Except with Jarba, Rangers are the Jarba killers so it's better to try to deal real damage to them.

2. When trying to level up your cannon, if you're doing it in a party: when the enemies are no longer grouped, don't bother anymore. The shot is lost. Pull out a different gun.

3. An important part of using the cannon is being the first one to arrive on the next spawn so you can get good clean shots. If you fall behind, someone's going to pull them apart and you'll lose your shot. For example, with Gohmons, the first thing they do when they spawn is shoot their tech. Well if you show up first you can knock most of them down immediately. Then everyone else, who should be right on your tail, can have a much easier time dealing with them. After that stop trying to knock them around, it's time to use a different gun.

4. To level it up, I recommend Vally of Carnage S. You'll usually end up only getting 2-3 vandas a shot, but it gets you in the practice of lining the shot down to the smallest polygon to max out the number of targets you can hit. De Regan S is also halfway decent I'm finding because the Polties spawn in groups of 6 and if you run away then turn around they usually all line up for you. Both of these would have to be solo.

PS - I just found out the damage mod on lvl 30 ice prism is going to be 167% since it's already 151% at level 23! I'm guessing earth/fire/dark would be 172%.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-03-23 15:03 ]</font>

[Raysa]

Anyone know the stats of a lvl 80 Newman guntecher?

[Blanky]

HP 1602
ATP 496
ATA 469
TP 384
DFP 93
EVP 339
MST 245
STA 12

That's what I found. It's at class level 10, which I assumed you meant.

[imfanboy]

Yeah, generally when I'm being a GT in the last room of Labs what I do is "herd" the Jarbas - I bust out my ice twins and peck at all of them, get them close together, get them shooting megid at ME at a range that I can easily dodge, meantime my hunter buddies are picking out one jarba at a time from the herd.

It's safe and efficient, for all involved.

Chibilegolas, mayalee prism has a high miss rate built in - look at the Acc modifier, I think it's something like 45% to start with? If that? Yeah, pretty low. All that's happening is you're missing - try using Zodial and ask your wartecher buddies in the front lines to fling out Zodeel, and you'll see a world of difference.

[Vay]

21+ Machineguns are pretty amazing, I'll have to retract my statement that GT is the weakest Mgun user. Second strongest, I'd have to say. (Been working on these bullets while hunting rappies... as fG, doing about 270+ a bullet with 21+ Light machine gun in LL S2 with level 2 shifta.)

Edit: Note that this is about a 40 damage jump from level 20... extra 5% ATP gained at 11 and 21, and 20% element to cut through the base defense of the monster. Pretty awesome.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vay on 2007-03-26 09:24 ]</font>

[chibiLegolas]

Thanks for all the tips guys!
I'll just have to practice with the maylee prism more to get better at it and will keep everything you all have said in mind.
I WILL be a better GT damit!
*shakes fist in air*

Is it possible for missed hits to not show up as 0's with the lazer? Just curious.
But that is an excellent point. I never noticed the thing's got low accuracy. A gunner with low accuracy? Me missing?! The thought seems foreign to me.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Over the weekend, I'm also noticed that when I dish this out on De Ragen, several of his parts would be highlighted. So I can hit multiple parts with a lazer cannon? But I could of sworn I read that you couldn't hit mulit targeted enemey parts with the lazer (in the perticular thread, he mentions the large creatures in Valley of Carnage). Saying that lazer's aren't that good BECAUSE you can't hit multiple body parts. Am I remembering things wrong? Or was there a patch some where down the road that fixes lasers?

Keep on gaming!

[Vay]

There isn't, that pretty much just shows you what you CAN hit with it, since it will show all targets it will affect in a line. It's one hit, I guess Cannons are ok, just not great boss killers like grenades, really.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-26 09:22, Vay wrote:
21+ Machineguns are pretty amazing, I'll have to retract my statement that GT is the weakest Mgun user. Second strongest, I'd have to say. (Been working on these bullets while hunting rappies... as fG, doing about 270+ a bullet with 21+ Light machine gun in LL S2 with level 2 shifta.)

Edit: Note that this is about a 40 damage jump from level 20... extra 5% ATP gained at 11 and 21, and 20% element to cut through the base defense of the monster. Pretty awesome.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vay on 2007-03-26 09:24 ]</font>


what element?

[Vay]

Light, Earth, Ice... pick one. All I've noticed a significant jump in damage from 20-21. Note this is also fG, not GT, but I imagine it would still be a good boost, just not as dramatic as fG since GT has lower ATP.

[imfanboy]

I have a GT (admittedly, a newearl GT) at level 8 with frozen fury 21, and my figunner with frozen fury only at 8 outdamages her - though I will admit, that's because the figunner's a CAST with 100 more ATP than my GT.

Honestly, the best users of mechguns are figunners, simply because they have more base ATP, and the more base ATP you have the more damage you're going to dish out. Next up would be fortegunners for sure, because of that level 21+ they get, but after that comes the guntecher. *shrug* I never said it was a BAD choice; I said that "fans are going to deal more damage."

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-26 23:03, imfanboy wrote:
I have a GT (admittedly, a newearl GT) at level 8 with frozen fury 21, and my figunner with frozen fury only at 8 outdamages her - though I will admit, that's because the figunner's a CAST with 100 more ATP than my GT.

Honestly, the best users of mechguns are figunners, simply because they have more base ATP, and the more base ATP you have the more damage you're going to dish out. Next up would be fortegunners for sure, because of that level 21+ they get, but after that comes the guntecher. *shrug* I never said it was a BAD choice; I said that "fans are going to deal more damage."



Not that I really want to debate this, but...I guess I'll chime in. ForteGunner ATP is close to Figunner ATP so as to be less of an issue. What's different is the level of the bullets, and the ATA of the class. ForteGunner, FTW.

My Cast is a GT2, FG1, and fG1. Because I am indecisive like that.

[iono]

Fortegunners have less than 10% ATP below fighgunners. If mechs get 10% at that level, plus the weapon's small ATP itself, the probability that a fighgunner does more than a fortegunner is pretty low. Chances are the simple difference between level 20 machine gun and 30 machine's damage mod is already enough to make forte pass figh even without the elemental %. Depending on how % works I'm not even conviced about them outdoing a GT. But I still deleted my machine gun bullet and I don't regret it!

[Vay]

I have more ATP than my female human Fighgunner friend - we're both 80/10. I do more damage with my machine guns (she has several of hers at 20, I have several of mine at 21).

[chibiLegolas]

Sorry, but yet another GT question I don't think anyone's mentioned on this thread:
I've been looking over the armors that's available to us and have noticed 2 nice sets that GT's could take advantage of.

phantom + phantom line:
Expensive. 9* rifle + A rank armor [arm/extra slot + various elemental %?]

Ageha-kikami + Ageha-senba:
Weaker 4* armor. 8* cards + B rank armor [Head/Body/Extra slot + dark % only?]

I've read that both sets give a boost of 25% to atp/ata/def. Is this true? If so, I was wondering if other GT's thought that if this was worth while to get these sets. We're not damage dealers, so how much of an 25% boost can really benefit the party? But it would be nice if some of us were using rifles or cards primarily anyways.
And since we deal pretty good damage already with the cards, I was wondering if the Ageha set only sounds good on paper.

I'm still building up my own armor PM to try to make both of those myself. But would like to know if others had already practiced with these sets and would like to share their input.

Grateful for any input once again...

[Blanky]

I would say nay to the Phantom combo. A) A rifle isn't a DPS weapon, you don't need a 25% ATP boost for landing SEs. The ATA boost might be useful though. B) You have to wear an armor that's kinda rare, it'd be hard to find ones with decent %s offering good protection. So basically, you'd be sacrificing your defense for a boost in power on a weapon that you only really need to use for SEs. Not really worth it to me.

I think they actually had a discussion about the Ageha combo earlier in the thread. Might wanna check that out. Even though I used the Ageha set for awhile, I never really paid attention to see if it was making a difference or not.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-27 09:52, chibiLegolas wrote:
Sorry, but yet another GT question I don't think anyone's mentioned on this thread:
I've been looking over the armors that's available to us and have noticed 2 nice sets that GT's could take advantage of.

phantom + phantom line:
Expensive. 9* rifle + A rank armor [arm/extra slot + various elemental %?]

Ageha-kikami + Ageha-senba:
Weaker 4* armor. 8* cards + B rank armor [Head/Body/Extra slot + dark % only?]

I've read that both sets give a boost of 25% to atp/ata/def. Is this true? If so, I was wondering if other GT's thought that if this was worth while to get these sets. We're not damage dealers, so how much of an 25% boost can really benefit the party? But it would be nice if some of us were using rifles or cards primarily anyways.
And since we deal pretty good damage already with the cards, I was wondering if the Ageha set only sounds good on paper.

I'm still building up my own armor PM to try to make both of those myself. But would like to know if others had already practiced with these sets and would like to share their input.

Grateful for any input once again...



I'ts a question of what you use for weapons, and what race you are. As a Female Newman...it's rough to lose out on an arm slot for the Mega / Power, as a Beast, the Arm slot is pretty useful for a +30 ATA c rank arm unit (the best "pure" unit currently available). Humans or Casts are probably Best suited for the card/4* armor combo

Also, it depends on how often you use rifles or cards. I know I spend about 30% of the time with a rifle..but then again when I am using my rifle, I often am far away from the melee...

GTs also use bows, in some cases to the exclusion of rifles. I mix it up (fire rifle, ice bow, virus bow). Boss fights tend to favor bows, while running through the levels tends to favor rifles (less set up time).

So there you have it. the plain and simple true truth to the matter is rarely plain, and never simple.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-03-27 10:50, Blanky wrote:
I think they actually had a discussion about the Ageha combo earlier in the thread. Might wanna check that out. Even though I used the Ageha set for awhile, I never really paid attention to see if it was making a difference or not.


Ahhh... Did a more thorough skimming and found the info on page 8-ish. Thanks for all the input so far folks!

[Vay]

@ Blanky: You are win.

Also, back me up, Blanks... you've seen my Mgun in action vs. Mad's. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Fortegunner #1, right?

[iono]

On 2007-03-27 11:01, SolomonGrundy wrote as a Beast, the Arm slot is pretty useful for a +30 ATA c rank arm unit (the best "pure" unit currently available).

If a beast is using it, they basically just threw away the only reason to be a beast instead of a CAST because a CAST can wear a +50 ATP unit and suddenly have more ATP than a beast who isn't wearing one.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-27 14:06, iono wrote:

On 2007-03-27 11:01, SolomonGrundy wrote as a Beast, the Arm slot is pretty useful for a +30 ATA c rank arm unit (the best "pure" unit currently available).

If a beast is using it, they basically just threw away the only reason to be a beast instead of a CAST because a CAST can wear a +50 ATP unit and suddenly have more ATP than a beast who isn't wearing one.




Not totally true. Beast still have higher HP, TP (earlier b rank wands), and EVP. Also, Nanoblast>SUVs for gunteckers, as the SEs that get delivered via SUV weapons can mostly just be done with guns, spells, or traps.

[Blanky]

On 2007-03-27 13:27, Vay wrote:
@ Blanky: You are win.

Also, back me up, Blanks... you've seen my Mgun in action vs. Mad's. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Fortegunner #1, right?



lol, honestly i've never even paid attention to either of you. But yesterday I helped Mad with some more rappy hunting(got an egg and Rappy feather, DAMN YOU RAPPIES!) and s/he was doing about 200+ per bullet on a LV20 light bullet. So there's the level 80/10 Female Fighgunner damage =).

[iono]

On 2007-03-28 09:56, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Not totally true. Beast still have higher HP, TP (earlier b rank wands), and EVP. Also, Nanoblast>SUVs for gunteckers, as the SEs that get delivered via SUV weapons can mostly just be done with guns, spells, or traps.



Nevertheless, +30 ATA is useless. I gain more than that when I switch to fortegunner and I haven't been able to find the difference.

[SolomonGrundy]

Nevertheless, +30 ATA is useless. I gain more than that when I switch to fortegunner and I haven't been able to find the difference.



O_o
30 ATA is useless?
huh. you have the advantage on me Iono. I am a level 40 GT2. I'm sure things get much better at higher levels, but right now I am in the process of evaluating mega power vs mega knight (for the 15 ATA)/

[iono]

You're probably seeing a lot of zeros and thinking you need more ATA to compensate. Tell you what, if you ever get an ATA unit go test it. Check out how often you see zeros with an without. It needs to overcome the damage difference inflicted by Mega/Power's boost in damage per shot. ATA is scaled in such a way that you need like 100+ more ATA in order to see a real difference in ATA.

It might also be your bullet levels. They hit their highest ATA at level 20 except the PA frag bullets which keep going up to 30. Those make a really big difference in ATA. For example, 1 level of a bullet on my GT is like 3.25 ATA, so if I had a level 10 bullet versua a level 20 bullet, that's already more than 30 ATA lost right there.

Oh and there again - because we have bullets, we actually get less than the ATA we think we would. Most guns cap out close to 70% ATA. So for example with a +15 ATA unit, if your ATA mod on the bullet is 70, you actually only gain 10.5 ATA. If it's a 50% ata mod, you actually only gained 7.5 ATA. On the other hand, most guns cap out around 150%-160% damage mod. On a 50 power unit, you would stand to gain 75-80 actual ATP.

But on the flip side, it seems like no matter how much ATA I get for myself, I still see a lot of zeros on specific monsters like Kogg Nadd even though I outlevel it by quite a lot.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iono on 2007-03-28 19:03 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

huh. maybe that's why fGs are such a strong class. The ATA they have > GT ATA even with zodial...

I also did not realize bullet art's ATA stopped at 20 (skills increase all the way to 30).

Even more reason to get the ultimate crossbw art.

[iono]

Fortegunners also can't use the two most accurate guns in the game.

[imfanboy]

On 2007-03-28 19:03, iono wrote:
You're probably seeing a lot of zeros and thinking you need more ATA to compensate. Tell you what, if you ever get an ATA unit go test it. Check out how often you see zeros with an without. It needs to overcome the damage difference inflicted by Mega/Power's boost in damage per shot. ATA is scaled in such a way that you need like 100+ more ATA in order to see a real difference in ATA.

I think you're very wrong on this. Where did you get any hard data from?

I notice a serious difference in being able to hit just from having a stella/hit S with my fortefighter; and if you're right on this than zodial is useless, because even 20% of 150 is only 30 - and it is patently NOT useless.

In fact, I believe that ATA is the one attribute that scales up dramatically fast, other than STA.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-29 10:58, imfanboy wrote:

On 2007-03-28 19:03, iono wrote:
You're probably seeing a lot of zeros and thinking you need more ATA to compensate. Tell you what, if you ever get an ATA unit go test it. Check out how often you see zeros with an without. It needs to overcome the damage difference inflicted by Mega/Power's boost in damage per shot. ATA is scaled in such a way that you need like 100+ more ATA in order to see a real difference in ATA.

I think you're very wrong on this. Where did you get any hard data from?

I notice a serious difference in being able to hit just from having a stella/hit S with my fortefighter; and if you're right on this than zodial is useless, because even 20% of 150 is only 30 - and it is patently NOT useless.

In fact, I believe that ATA is the one attribute that scales up dramatically fast, other than STA.



I'm pretty confused about the scale of ATA, actually. If you look at the range (130s for WTs, to high 400s for fortegunners), it makes you wonder how much ATA is needed to it, and what the benefits are once you reach this threshold.

Empirically, I notice I hit more with Zodial on. Whether it's a fF using an axe, or a guntecher using a mechgun, I still see noticeable imporvement. I till get zero's - I have not yet found an ATA level that does not miss.

[iono]

On 2007-03-29 10:58, imfanboy wrote:

On 2007-03-28 19:03, iono wrote:
You're probably seeing a lot of zeros and thinking you need more ATA to compensate. Tell you what, if you ever get an ATA unit go test it. Check out how often you see zeros with an without. It needs to overcome the damage difference inflicted by Mega/Power's boost in damage per shot. ATA is scaled in such a way that you need like 100+ more ATA in order to see a real difference in ATA.

I think you're very wrong on this. Where did you get any hard data from?

I notice a serious difference in being able to hit just from having a stella/hit S with my fortefighter; and if you're right on this than zodial is useless, because even 20% of 150 is only 30 - and it is patently NOT useless.

In fact, I believe that ATA is the one attribute that scales up dramatically fast, other than STA.



We're not even talking about the same thing. o.o Fortefighters have very low ATA, so an increase to them is more noticeable. Which is a bigger jump? 150-->165 ATA or 350-->365 ATA?

Zodial is a totally different matter altogether because that's a multiplier. I already said I think multipliers do make a big difference and I already gave reasons for why. D:

[Jey]

After hitting a buncha 0s on Unsafe Passage C mobs as my lv80 fG10. . .

I'm guessing the acc vs. eva has a soft cap. It's not like you'll ever not-miss, not even against lv1 mobs (._.') However, if you hit, you'll always see the effect of Att+. Which is why I just stick with Mega/Power, though I'd like a Charge unit or of course the elusive Solid / Power S.

But personally I wouldn't bother with ATA raising equipment (or give the Power S units a blind eye unless you're a beast fortefighter using an axe F: that's just asking for angst) It may be a problem <lv50 but after that I really never had a problem hitting anything, even mobs 20+ levels higher than me.

Well, bugs are an exception.

As for acc capping at lv20, most frag PAs don't follow cap stats until 30 (except Boma Maga GRRR), neither do grenades (which don't matter for GT anyway), pretty sure mechguns don't.

[SolomonGrundy]

Interestin note:

ATA scale:
Male Human Guntecker 60/10 ATA + 7* crossbow (fairly accurate) x level 30 non ultimate bullet PA =

(339+126)*.75 = 348.75


Male Human Figunner 60/10 + 7* twin swords (fairly accurate) x non ultimte skill PA =

(254+219*)*.84 = 397.32


in case you are not reading between the lines, that means your average fighter type is MORE accurate than your average gunner type.

[iono]

Crossbows don't have a 75% accuracy mod. I think it's like 60%. xD But they're also not "fairly accurate" either, it's one of the less accurate guns we can use. There's a lot of other stuff I should point out there but oh well who cares.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-01 22:24, iono wrote:
Crossbows don't have a 75% accuracy mod. I think it's like 60%. xD But they're also not "fairly accurate" either, it's one of the less accurate guns we can use. There's a lot of other stuff I should point out there but oh well who cares.



it's more accurate than 7* shotgun, 7* machine gun, 7* dual handgun.

So, cards, bows, and rifles are more accurate...
As to the PA, accuracy, I had to guess based of other level 30 PAs. I thought it was either 70 or 75% so I erred with the higher number.

And yes, I know about ultimate gun PAs havinh higher accuracy. And...who cares? weird attitude to take.

[Jey]

Yak Zagenga has a 75% acc mod.

Anyway.