PSU: Debunking the false claims of Set In Order

[Para]

I get too many idiots often claiming


SET IN ORDER IS BROKEN



SET IN ORDER IS BROKEN



SET IN ORDER IS BROKEN


IT IS NOT BROKEN.

I conducted some tests on how set in order worked. Kept track of drops and when it dropped.

The truths behind set in order:
Every person is guarenteed a rare as long as the number of rares dropped are equal to the number of party members and all those members were in the party from the drop(picked up) of the first rare to the drop(picked up) of the last rare found.
Set in order DOES NOT skip people. Only people skip rares.
When a rare is dropped, it is automatically assigned to the person who is next in order REGARDLESS if you or a party member picked it up or not, that rare is DESTINED TO BE YOURS FOREVER.
When a rare is picked up, set in order starts a "round" of who gets the rare. This "round" ends when everyone involved in that "round" gets 1 rare. When the "round" ends, set in order starts a new round.
People who join after set in order started a round, do not join the round until a new round starts.
When a mission is completed or abandoned, the round automatically ends. This round is not continued onto the next mission.
The order in each round has a chance of being different or being the same but more so being different because set in order randomizes the order after a round has been completed.


Here's one specific scenario that should reveal much about set in order.

In a party, person A, B, C, D, E, and F are currently participating. Rares are set in order. A rare has been dropped and Person B got the rare when it got picked up. Because a rare has dropped, a set-in-order-round has begun. Person F has left the party and a new party member has joined, this person is known has F2 but person F2 will not get any rares this round because he joined late. Person B, C, D and E have now each received a rare. The round ends and a new round has started with person F2 in the order now.

Name Round 1
Person A| Received a Rare |
Person B| Received a Rare |
Person C| Received a Rare |
Person D| Received a Rare |
Person E| Received a Rare |
Person F| Replaced by F2 |

A rare has dropped and Person C got the rare. 2 more rares have dropped and Person B and D got a rare. A [B] Moon Atomizer X has dropped and person A, E and F2 frown upon it. No one picks it up but in truth, that rare has already been assigned to someone. 2 more rares have been dropped and Person E and F got them.

Name======Round 1=======Round 2
Person A| Received a Rare | Skipped |
Person B| Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person C| Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person D| Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person E| Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person F| Replaced by F2 | Received a Rare |

Because everyone in round 2 have assigned and supposebly received a rare, round 3 starts. Everyone found a rare for him/herself.

Name======Round 1======Round 2====Round 3
Person A| Received a Rare | Skipped | Received a Rare |
Person B| Received a Rare | Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person C| Received a Rare | Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person D| Received a Rare | Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person E| Received a Rare | Received a Rare | Received a Rare |
Person F| Replaced by F2 | Received a Rare | Received a Rare |

Since everyone received a rare in Round 3, Round 4 starts now. Person E gets 1 more rare and the run ends.

Person A starts making up some bs about SET IN ORDER IS BROKEN WAH WAH WAH I GOT SKIPPED. Infact he was never skipped, that [B] Moon Atomizer X was his rare during round 2. Its the party and his fault for not picking up the rare [B] Moon Atomizer X. Rares when dropped, are automatically DESTINED for someone in the party who hasn't received a rare yet in the current set in order round.

Set in order is great for missions where crappy rares are uncommon to seldom like Mizuraki Conservation District Defense S where the chance for everyone to get a decent rare is higher compared to Set Random. Set Random can be really screwed up when a small group of people keep getting all the rares and you possibly end up with nothing.

So when someone says not to pick up crappy rares in a party, he/she obviously don't understand how set in order works. And when next time someone starts making bs about set in order being broken, direct him/her to this post and tell them to stfu.

[Ronin1of47]

wow
good job how long did this take you to research?

makes sense ive skiped countless moon atomizer x's and didnt get a rae in said run even though 8 rares droped...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ronin1of47 on 2007-01-06 22:38 ]</font>

[Siertes]

So rares left on the ground aka crap rares still affect the order? That would explain quite a lot.

This is certainly the first time I'm hearing this info. Can anyone else confirm this?

[Sychosis]

Awesome, yet depressing when that [B] Moon Atomizer X is destined to be yours...

[Dj_SkyEpic]

Sounds right imo. Everyone always seems to cry when they dont get a rare in set order, but they dont ever notice that the rare that they passed was assigned towards them.

Have you tried this? find a rare item while doing the round, then a moon board drops ( during which, you know who it is going to.) You pass right by it, and grab another item but turns out it has skipped a person.

If you were to go back and pick up that board, will it go to the person that's skipped?~

[Siertes]

Don't question the judgment of the God of Rares!!! He doesn't look kindly upon unbelievers...

[ljkkjlcm9]

hmm, then that means it works the same for regular set in order, skipped items are set to be given to someone

THE JACKEL

[Sekani]

This is very enlightening. Too bad the general populace is convinced otherwise, and people will continue to be berated for picking up Moon Atomizer X's (even though they're in GREEN boxes, what the hell is up with that?)

[Para]

On 2007-01-06 22:40, Dj_SkyEpic wrote:


If you were to go back and pick up that board, will it go to the person that's skipped?~

Yes it will go to that skipped person because the rare is DESTINED to be his/hers.

[Dj_SkyEpic]

On 2007-01-06 22:43, Sekani wrote:
(even though they're in GREEN boxes, what the hell is up with that?)

Once you get to higher levels on your character, they would appear in Blue boxes. It only looks rare when you are low-leveled.

[Sekani]

Um... rare items are in RED boxes. Moon X's and Scape Dolls don't appear in red boxes, regardless of level.

[lostsm]

this is all fine and dandy, but can you post your methods of testing/research so others can confirm this?

[Para]

The example i provided is from my testing/research.

[Dj_SkyEpic]

Humm~ You said Moon X appear in green boxes which is wrong, Sekani. They appear in blue boxes.

Unless you are stating that for [B] Moon X, then they do appear in red.

[Para]

I got someone telling me that some person got a rare in set in order once they joined. My theory may be slightly incomplete on that part but I'll try to confirm more of it when I go out to do more field tests. Any confirmations of what this some person told me would be good.

For now I think my theory is pretty much true about how Set in Order works.

[Dhylec]

Interesting, looks like a good insight into one of the lesser-understood aspects of the game.
Sticky-listed for reference.

[PMB960]

I noticed, although I don't know if it has been fixed, that whenever a new person joined my party the round reset and I got the next rare. Since we started with 2 people I received 4 rares while other only got 1 since we found 10.

[lostsm]

i mean test/research as in, how did you go about determining this? how did you keep track of things? did you do several runs with 5 other willing participants to the tests in the group? listen, i'm not trying to discredit what you came up with, as it seems to be a sound theory that when a rare appears on the field it's automatically assigned to a player if it's in order.

but on the other hand, compare "set in order" to random and give finder. these last two are completely dependent on a player doing the action of actually picking up an item.

so from a programming point of view, you're saying sonic team included a completely different, yet not so complex, routine to the loot options, only for set in order mind you, where when a rare "spawns" (ie when a rare appears), and is then assigned to a player, even if the rare is not picked up. realize, that this means somewhere, somehow, the game would have to remember (ie write to memory somewhere) that rare that no one picked up belongs to someone.

or wouldn't it seem more simple to assume there is no such routine at all, and all loot options are based off of players picking up items, at which point the loot is then assigned accordingly (to the finder, randomly or in the order)

see what i'm trying to explain here?

[PMB960]

It could be the same for set random but since it is random who knows. As soon as the rare drops it assigns it to a random player says they will get this if it is picked up, but you can't check that like you can set in order. I have seen people skipped because they didn't want an item. I have also seen the round reset when someone else joins meaning the leader gets more rares. This is only useful in 6 person parties when it is a 3 luck day and for example we found 18 rares in 1 run. It was nice because everyone got 3. I f you have a 6 person party though and it is 0 luck chances are only the first 3 people will actually get rares.

[shewby]

this is why random is better. no one deserves to be stuck with a MAX board only.

[Golto]

The order definatly resets if someone joins/leaves a party.

[Ledin]

On 2007-01-07 08:45, Golto wrote:
The order definatly resets if someone joins/leaves a party.
No, it doesn't. The OP is correct, the original order will finish, regardless of people joining. After that cycle is done, a new order starts.


On 2007-01-06 22:43, Para wrote:

On 2007-01-06 22:40, Dj_SkyEpic wrote:


If you were to go back and pick up that board, will it go to the person that's skipped?~

Yes it will go to that skipped person because the rare is DESTINED to be his/hers.
This is not true. From countless Mizuraki S runs with more than 6 rares, I can attest that an item is not assigned to a person when it drops; only when you pick it up. We never pick up Moon Atomizer X or Scape Doll or Gourmet Cake boards, yet everybody receives their rares. There is no skipping involved if you leave rares on the floor, as your theory would imply.

In the aforementioned example, the board would go to the person next in the order list at the time it's picked up.

In conclusion: If you want a fair loot distribution method, Order is by far superior to Random in games that drop 6+ rares on average, presuming the party agrees to not pick up any of the low value rares (i.e. Moon Atomizer X).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ledin on 2007-01-07 17:57 ]</font>

[Golto]

In conclusion: no one really knows how it works because we all have witnessed different patterns.

[mananas]

Someone besides the OP said that the leader starts the order but that's not the case... a friend and I tested it by starting ordered parties where he got the rare first or he got rares twice in a row. Maybe this was because there were only two people in the party and we didn't keep track after the first three drops. In your experiences is the order always the same in one given game -> because you used A, B, C, D, etc. in the same order for both examples. Thank you so much though... it's taken how many months for someone to make a believable account of this? I hope people will be starting more ordered games from now on.

[Ledin]

On 2007-01-07 12:31, Golto wrote:
In conclusion: no one really knows how it works because we all have witnessed different patterns.
There are many possibilities why you might have thought the order got reset when a new person joined:

- The cycle was over and restarted.
- Person who would have been next in line left the party or was in the field lobby when the item was picked up, being skipped.
- Somebody's inventory was full. The system displays a "Skip:" message instead of "Received:" in that case, but it's easy enough to miss.
- And so on, and so forth.
I have spent countless hours testing this in small parties. Everytime some unexpected distribution happened -- which might have seemed like a skip or an order reset before the cycle was over -- we were able to find an explanation within the rules.

One possibility I have not tested yet is that the order is predetermined for all 6 player slots, regardless of who's present when the game is started. This means it's possible for Player 1 and Player 2 to start a game, then Player 3 joins the game and gets a rare before both original party members get one. Scenario: Order is 1-3-2-4-6-5, Player 1 and Player 2 start the game. The first rare goes to Player 1. If the second rare is picked up before Player 3 joins, it will go to Player 2 (since Player 3 would be skipped). However, if Player 3 joins the game before the second rare drops, he will receive it. Please keep in mind this is just a theory for now.

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm just sharing my own findings. Take it for what it's worth.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ledin on 2007-01-07 17:59 ]</font>

[A2K]

I believe the "skip" message is only displayed to the user who would have received an item. No one else sees it. Another thing to keep in mind is that although it's called "Set In Order" in the English version, I distinctly remember the word "random" still being in the choice on JP. Perhaps they couldn't fit "Random in Order" or something like that. Maybe a more appropriate term would be "Elimination".

[Knight_of_MIA]

On 2007-01-07 23:24, A2K wrote:
I believe the "skip" message is only displayed to the user who would have received an item. No one else sees it. Another thing to keep in mind is that although it's called "Set In Order" in the English version, I distinctly remember the word "random" still being in the choice on JP. Perhaps they couldn't fit "Random in Order" or something like that. Maybe a more appropriate term would be "Elimination".



Interesting aspect... can someone first of all clearly point out what this third loot Option in the JP Version is entitled ? Maybe this term is really already self-explaining.

Second thing. Can someone confirm, that (independent of both stated theories) the loot options "Random Order" for normal and rare items are counted seperately ? If they are combined, this would explain a lot...

[Golto]

The skip message goes out to all party members just like the rare message.

[FrogKicker]

The skip message is only seen by the person who was skipped.

Take for example, monomates. If Me, Frogkicker already had 20 monomates on me and it was my turn for an item and a monomate was picked up, it would say Skip: Monomate, and the name of the person getting it since you cannot. And yes, that monomate still counts as your item.

No, the whole party does not see the skip message, only the person who was skipped.

[Golto]

I must be bugged then since I see it whenever anyone skips a normal item.

[FrogKicker]

On 2007-01-08 09:39, Golto wrote:
I must be bugged then since I see it whenever anyone skips a normal item.



That's not them skipping it, that's YOU skipping it. The persons name you see is the person it is going to, not the person who was skipped.

The only time you will ever see a skipped message is when you, yourself, have been skipped.

[FrogKicker]

Hrm...how did I not read that part.

Rares are assigned to nobody. You can skip all the shitty rares and not have to worry about it being "your destined red". No offense but that was some lacklustre testing that was done. Every game I play we skip moon Xs the boards and scape boards. Never once has anyone in the group been jipped because we passed over a moon x.

Don't believe me? Go make a game with just one other person in your group. Then hit up an A or S rank. Run all the way through but don't pick up any reds. Also, keep track of the order in which the reds dropped.

So for instance, a vestaline dropped, then a moon x board dropped and then a kerseline dropped, in that order. Now Go back through and pick up the vestaline, note who it went to and then skip the moon x board and go straight for the kerseline. I bet you dollars to donuts player1 gets the vestaline and player2 gets the kerseline.

Hundreds of Relic S runs farming for Hard/Power Charge with a buddy is fact enough for me.

[zanotam]

You're both wrong because i've gone through runs where a rare was NOT skipped yet everyone else got atleast one rare even late joiners and i got none, heck happense to me almost every time its set to order http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zanotam on 2007-01-08 10:33 ]</font>

[Nicodareus]

I'd be more tempted to believe it worked that way (Which it might in an ideal situation) if I hadn't played side by side with my friend and watched me get 6 rares in a row in one game (His inventory never filling up, and both of us too stingy to leave an item behind, regardless of rarity..) and him get 3 in a row on the next run, with the same conditions.. Heh.. Granted, this was back when we were level 5 or so, and it may have been fixed by now, but back then, in order was broken. And I've still seen many odd occurrences with in order in a 3 person party that dont seem to fit into your scenarios listed, though the extra persons item grabs are harder to monitor when you dont see everything they are doing on their own screen.. But not entirely impossible either.. And as well, I have had what your last post mentions.. Many times on universe01.. Often times a rare would drop, the person would join afterwards and they would be the one that gets that rare.. I've not done anything but 'random' in an unlocked party since then.

Edit: Whoops.. Geared towards Para's last post, not the last post before mine.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nicodareus on 2007-01-08 14:08 ]</font>

[Para]

On 2007-01-08 14:05, Nicodareus wrote:
I'd be more tempted to believe it worked that way (Which it might in an ideal situation) if I hadn't played side by side with my friend and watched me get 6 rares in a row in one game (His inventory never filling up, and both of us too stingy to leave an item behind, regardless of rarity..) and him get 3 in a row on the next run, with the same conditions.. Heh.. Granted, this was back when we were level 5 or so, and it may have been fixed by now, but back then, in order was broken. And I've still seen many odd occurrences with in order in a 3 person party that dont seem to fit into your scenarios listed, though the extra persons item grabs are harder to monitor when you dont see everything they are doing on their own screen.. But not entirely impossible either.. And as well, I have had what your last post mentions.. Many times on universe01.. Often times a rare would drop, the person would join afterwards and they would be the one that gets that rare.. I've not done anything but 'random' in an unlocked party since then.

Edit: Whoops.. Geared towards Para's last post, not the last post before mine.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nicodareus on 2007-01-08 14:08 ]</font>
Instead of thinking of what seems like it.. go out and actually take a piece of paper and pencil and keep track of members, what round they left, who joined to take his place and what rare each person got for each round.

[Siertes]

You know, some of us could get together and try to clarify things once and for all. We could do multiple games with varying aspects. Better than arguing about separate experiences. Then we could argue on one shared experience!

[Para]

lol that is true...

[Sekani]

On 2007-01-08 09:52, FrogKicker wrote:

On 2007-01-08 09:39, Golto wrote:
I must be bugged then since I see it whenever anyone skips a normal item.



That's not them skipping it, that's YOU skipping it. The persons name you see is the person it is going to, not the person who was skipped.

The only time you will ever see a skipped message is when you, yourself, have been skipped.



Sorry man, your info is wrong here. Skip messages are always displayed to the entire party, and they show the person being skipped, not the recipient.

Assuming your first paragraph was correct, then why would I see a "Skip: Dimate" message if I'm not full on Dimates?

[rvzero]

I have witnessed this..
I got a rare, the next guy got a rare, someone joined, and I got the rare after that. <_<
leaving/joining = re start a cycle in random order.
it was a 5 ppl party before the one person joined, and before me only 1 had recived a rare.

so...
guy 1, me(2), guy3. new player. me(2) again
leaving guys 4 and 5 without rares for that "cycle"


edit: another thing. When I was the leader for 3-4 runs in Mizu S. the second member got the 1st rares, not the leader.. O-o

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rvzero on 2007-01-09 00:53 ]</font>

[FrogKicker]

Sorry Sekani, I am not wrong. Just for you I tested it with my brother and sister last night. I made sure to max out my mates and atomizers before doing MizS, and they made sure to have none. Within the first 5 minutes a monomate drops and we pick it up. Lucky for me I get to see the following message on my screen.

<insertsistersnamehere>
Skip: Monomate
*

Then (now heres the kicker) I use my psychic powers and tell my sister she now has a monomate in her inventory. She looks, and guess what? Holy crea doubles batman!!! She is now the proud owner of a monomate. My brother, poor lil sap, was all torn up inside from not having my psychic abilities. Why didn't he have this strange and wonderful power you ask? Because he did not see the magic skip message. Because, again, you only see that message if you are the person being skipped and the name is the person getting it.

I already knew I was right about set in order but for shits and giggles we tested it again last night. Lo and behold it worked like a charm. MizS 4 reds dropped in the following order. GrinderA, kubara wood, scape baord and a vestaline. We left them on the ground until the vestaline dropped then went back to pick them up in order, minus the scape board. I got the grinder, friend 1 got the kubara wood and friend 2 got the vestaline. According to your method friend 2 shouldn't have gotten anything.

I understand everyones ongoing crusade to make guides get info and help out the community, but for the love of spam people, at least do a little friggen research before spouting random mouthfulls of BS...please.

[soolayah]

dunno, once on a dragon a run i got a rare right when i joined, and then i got the next one after that too. since it was on uni 1 i was accused of hacking and promptly kicked. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Shade-]

I'm not going to bother if your observations are right or wrong. But what I'd like to point out is your statement in the OP that refutes the claim "set in order is broken". I guess it comes down to how you interpret "broken" if you are taking it literally, it probably isn't, there is rhyme and reason for who gets what on set in order. I believe in 90% of the cases you hear "set in order is broken" the meaning is "set in order is not a fair item distribution in this situation, as it gives unfair disadvantages to certain players.".

In that light, no matter how much research you do, you can't debunk the claim that set in order is indeede broken. Often times, I find even on S rank missions, unless the leader has 2-3 luck, (usually isn't the case) there will be runs where less than 6 rares drop. So from the instant that the first rare drops and the order is determined, Somebody got screwed. Simple as that. Second, [b]moon atmoizer X, moon atomizer X, and [b] Scape Doll. That should be clear enough. In the case that at least 6 rares are dropped, which certainly idn't undeard of, unless you are first in order and that was the first thing to drop, you are once again SOL. Hardly EVER will more than 12 rares drop on a single mission, and if you get shafted with that [b], you have no chance of getting a single thing. At very least, with random, yeah, somebody will get the worthless rare, but the next rare that drops they still have an equal shot at picking up.

In light of all this, what I think is Set in Order is all fine and dandy, if you are in a small group with friends. But in open games where people come and go on a whim, distribution should really be random. Why does everyone hate random? is it because we've all seen somebody get 4-5+ rares sorted to them in a row? yeah, it happens, it's random. I garuentee it will happen to each and every one of you too though. I went with a party and literally, got all 7 rares that dropped in relics. And yet, I've gone 5 days (roughly 15 gameplay hours worth of runs straight) without seeing a single rare (excluding consumable boards).

The glory of random number generators is that when the sample is large enough, every nimber appears the same ammount of times. If you focus on the times you dont get any, and ignore all the times you got 2 per run, sure it seems like it sucks.

I'll continue to set my party to random/random, because you cannot argue that it isn't fair. I'll also mention in set order parties that random is in most cases better than order, if they dont want to change that's fine, if they are rude about it, I'll leave and go on my merry way while they have fun grumbling to themselves about what rare the got "stuck" with.

[Reiichi]

All this 'don't pick up crap rares' in party comments just causes people to get angry when people accidentally pick up trash rares, and slows the party down a little with having to take a second and make sure that that blue diamond isn't a moon atomizer X. Just go random and loot quickly and freely and noone will have a problem. People who complain that someone just got 3 rares in a row on random need to try flipping a coin or rolling a die sometimes.

[Cav]

On 2007-01-10 14:03, Reiichi wrote:
All this 'don't pick up crap rares' in party comments just causes people to get angry when people accidentally pick up trash rares, and slows the party down a little with having to take a second and make sure that that blue diamond isn't a moon atomizer X. Just go random and loot quickly and freely and noone will have a problem. People who complain that someone just got 3 rares in a row on random need to try flipping a coin or rolling a die sometimes.



Because it takes more than a second to read some text? I thought we got over speed reading in high school.

[Golto]

Thanks FrogKicker for clearing up the skip msg workings to me. Also thanks for proving the claim that 'dropped rares count in the order regardless if picked up or not' is false. It just doesn't make sense that they would count in order if not picked up but some people still argue it is fact. I guess some people believe that shock stops deljaban megids too.

[Reiichi]

Boxes like to come in groups. Stand over object, look at description, determine if it's something you should pick up or not. Moon Atomizer and Moon Atomizer X look oh so similar and aren't RED to let everyone know what they are. Same with scapes with all the *s that show up, but those are okay to pick up. I prefer to just pick everything up asap and not have to worry what everything is.

I tend to run in front of my group so I can aoe all the monsters before the other players start scattering them with whatever means that they do. I'm more inclined to not bother picking up loot for fear of my trigger finger picking up something that might piss someone else off. But why should anyone even bother with the extra work when random is as fair as it can possibly ever get?

[Cav]

Because random isn't fair in most player's experience (barring the ones that get the 6 rares in a row, of course they will say random is fair) or skip moons and mates too because you probably already have too many.

[ljkkjlcm9]

I personally believed from the start, considering so many commons get drop, and so few rares sometimes, that random rares and order normal was the best way to go.

Also, whatever it is about skip, I was playing an order game, picked up two sol atomizer's back to back and....
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/ljkkjlcm9/psu20070111_133905_000.jpg

I made sure to get a picture of it. The only explanation I could think of is that set in order goes through an order once even for regular items, then starts a new order, meaning I was the end of one order, and the first in the next. It was not on random, it was an order/order game, and as I've played, never gotten a skip message in a random game.

THE JACKEL



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2007-01-10 20:59 ]</font>

[FrogKicker]

No prob Golto, it is highly annoying when people don't even rsearch their info before making a 'guide'.

I really don't see why people actually pick up moon xs, scape boards or moon x boards...you really think people will buy them from your shop? Maybe if you are really lucky and run into someone 10 cent short of a dime. So I really don't see how random is better than set. If you don't pick up the crappy reds, then everyone still has a shot at getting a good one. And really...if by the end of the run not everyone got a red, I seriously doubt anyones gunna be pissed that they could have at least gotten the moon x board you left behind. If they did, this world is in worse shape than I thought.

Yes, ljkkjlcm9, you ended the order and then started the new one.

[Reiichi]

Hey, even moon X's sell for more meseta in your shop than your typical meseta drop in MD S. Some people use them for feeding their PM.

Even scape doll boards sell to the NPC for 125 mes =p Well it's better than nothing, and if it's random then you won't feel as shafted as if someone accidentally picked one up for you on order.

[Knight_of_MIA]

There is no one who could actually tell me how this works but glad you figured out how the skip message works. Okay here we go again:

a)
Rare items: Set in order
Normal items: give finder (or random)
--> or the other way round

b)
Rare items: Set in order
Normal items: Set in order

I told before, but I hope you can see the difference now.

The reason I´m complaining:
I hate being insulted by gamers who once used to be some smart ones, taking up every item (since there is value even on a monomate which I need, I generally do not sell at ridiculous prices). It was fun these early days when a rare item used to appear rarely. Now you have to take care taking up even a blue item - because this one could destroy one´s chance to get a rare item.

But there is no one who can say by proof how this formula works. Everyone just "seems" to know, and that is the fart. So I´m literally starting to gather a handful of gamers who just want to play easy, no competition between, no need to speed run, no one who runs forward without the group, everyone stays in relative proximity radar-wise. Just entertainment.


Besides. Has no one ever wondered:
Why isn´t this function explained in detail in the manual (next to many other functions as well...) one may ask ? Maybe nowadays no one wants to pull the triggers here and there but to begin playing at once - regardless whether there are valuables hints which help improve the own personal experience made while playing. But then at least - let me have some readme-file with details. Someone with contacts to SonicTeam (Chlumsyorchid or whoever thinks he is a big number) - tell them.

This one is OUR game. So there must be rules. Knowing half the truth is not enough.

[Knight_of_MIA]

So who of you guys know the answer ? Share your wisdom, don´t be shy.

[ZEO_X]

Is this topic ever going to be deleted?

Iam tired of getting into arguments with people who think “Para’s guide on set in order” is true…

[TrueArkane]

First off, this is my first post and for the most part I find the info and topics here informative, though some ppl seem to like arguing too much:X.....anywho.

When I first started playing I was excited to see the rare and item settings. Then was baffled at the fact that if you put it to set in order someone still ended up getting more rares or 2 in a row. How is that "IN ORDER". But no big deal at least it wasn't like PSO GC and DC where your prty abandoned you cornered in the ruins while they made a mad dash for that red box...lol...good times. So after a month of playing I decided to find out what made (set in order tick). And this is what I've found so far.

First is, each person in party has thier own order.
This example is just for explaining not exactly how the order is everytime.
EXP>3 ppl in team P1, P2, P3.
P1-order is 2-3-1
P2-order is 3-1-2
P3-order is 1-2-3
so if P1 picks up a rare it goes to P2, next P3 pix up rare and it goes to P1, then P1 picks up another rare and it goes to P3 then P2 pick up a rare and it goes to P3 as well. Thus the 2 rares in a row. You can also see how this could end up giving more rares to one person or another. Same thing for items set to order. So the farest way to do it on set in order is to have on person picking up all the rares.

Well thats what I've found so far and is all I really want to know. So if anyone wants to do more research on this go for it. Hope this helps everyone a little. I assume that set to random works the same way, just random order, never liked random. ok I'm done

[Zoamel_Gustav]

Hi, if someone is able to take screenshots of each step of the following experiment, it would be much appreciated. The recorder need only screenshot thier own inventory to show who recieves which item.

Premise: Set to order works the same for normal items as it does rare. Set to order works the same for a group of any number.

Step 1: Begin a 2 person locked group on Liner Line C with normal items set to order, rares to finder. Have both inventories as empty as necessary. These will be player X and Y.

Step 2: Using a handgun, only one person slays only one creature. If it drops an item, do not pick it up, but record it. This will be called the "first item dropped". If no item is dropped, repeat step 2.

Step 3: Using a handgun, only one person slays only one creature. If it drops an item, pick it up. This item will go to player X, record who player X. If no item is dropped, repeat step 3.

Logic states that if order is set by drops, the "The first item dropped" must go to player Y. Logic also states that if order is set by pick up, the "next item picked up" must go to Player Y.

Step 4: Using a handgun, only one person slays only one creature. If it drops an item, pick it up and record who it goes to. If it goes to player X, it proves order is not set by pick up. If it goes to player Y, nothing is proven yet, proceed to step 5.

Logic still states that if order is set by drops, the "first item dropped" must go to player Y. Logic now states that if order is set by pick up, the "next item picked up" must go to Player X.

Step 5: Pick up the "first item dropped". It is now also the "next item picked up". If it goes to player X, order is set by pick up. If it goes to player Y, order is set by drops. Definite proof by logic. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[gambit04]

Have you had a chance to test this out yet?

[Zoamel_Gustav]

Any two people can do this proof which is why I posted the exact steps. I'm quite sure there isn't any flaws in the logic. I'm on PS2 but I'll try to test this tonight. I've already found someone to screenshot each step, but I've been so busy lately http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif.

[ZEO_X]

I take back what I said before after recent events I would actually have to say this might be true. I was in a party of 3 at LLS2 and we left all the rares on the ground there was about 20 when we finished. We picked up 1 at a time from different blocks and one person got 3 in a row. In a party of 3 people and going by the old thinking of this that’s not possible unless this guide is true and as soon as the rare hits the ground its set to a person in the party no matter what order you pick it up in.

[sugarfox]

Logic still states that if order is set by drops, the "first item dropped" must go to player Y. Logic now states that if order is set by pick up, the "next item picked up" must go to Player X.

LOL... Please forgive my rudness but "Logic"...lol. Phantasy star and logic are like two opposing magnets, they never meet!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sugarfox on 2007-04-22 15:53 ]</font>

[xXAlucard]

well, according to the first posters findings, it STILL makes sense to skip the grinder base a's & etc, just because there is a small chance the round ended and a new chance the round can be beginning again (where it could mess up your turn.) I personally think it's worth that small chance to NOT get a bad rare and get a better one, to get nothing at all.

[SolomonGrundy]

I just ran two S2 missions in a 6 person party (crimson beast). Set in order most certainly DID NOT function as expected.

There were 18 rares, and I got 1. Every item was picked up. On the second run, two rares dropped and the same person recived them BACK TO BACK. This is just not possible if set in order worked.

The theories have been suggested to me:
1. Money from large creature drops counts as a rare
2. Any item over 3* is considered rare.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

Hi. I finally got the test done from this post (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=132035&forum=22&start=45&60#55). I should have the frapsed proof posted later today. The results were as follows:

Step 1: Me and another player began a 2 person locked group on Sleeping Warriors C with normal items set to order, rares to finder.

Step 2: Slew monsters. First drop was meseta. Skipped it.

Step 3: Slew more monsters. Second drop was hot berry. Picked it up, it went to the other player.

Logic states that if order is set by drops, the "meseta" must go to me and can't go to the other player. Logic also states that if order is set by pick up, the "next item picked up" must go to me and can't go to the other player.

Step 4: Slew more monsters. Third drop was sweet berry. Picked it up, it went to me.

Logic still states that if order is set by drops, the meseta must go to me and can't go to the other player. Logic now states that if order is set by pick up, the "next item picked up" could go to the other player.

Step 5: Went back and picked up the meseta. It went to the other player. Proof that order is set by pick up.

The other player recieved both the first dropped item and the second dropped item because they were picked up out of sequence. The first drop did not already belong to me as it lay on the floor. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif If it had not been picked up, the next item picked up would have gone to the other player instead of that meseta.

After I post the proof here, should I post it in a new topic?

[SolomonGrundy]

not a good test. where does it say that meseta counts as a normal item? this needs to be done only with actual items.

Also, I was told by an admittedly unrealiable source, that large meseta drops count as rares (meseta from Jarba, etc).

Finally, I have noticed in small parties that set in order seems to work. So possibly the the item distributer becomes confused in larger parties?

[Zoamel_Gustav]

On 2007-04-24 11:27, SolomonGrundy wrote:
not a good test. where does it say that meseta counts as a normal item? this needs to be done only with actual items.

Finally, I have noticed in small parties that set in order seems to work. So possibly the the item distributer becomes confused in larger parties?



You're really gonna make me work for this, huh? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_sleepy.gif Okay. First off, it's good that your questioning the test. Science is based on questions and finding answers. Your criticism is welcome. Your two points are that meseta may counted seperately from items and that the item distributer may work differantly in larger groups. My apologies to Occam's for breaking his razor.

Rechecking my test, my method provides two 50% chances to disprove drop or pickup. To test nonmeseta items only, simply reset the test if any meseta drops. To test meseta only, simply reset the test if any items drop. Eventually the first three drops will be all meseta or all items. At which point there is a 50% chance of proving drops or pickup for each.

If they both work on pickup, use the following test:

Step 0: Begin a 2 person locked group on Liner Line C with normal items set to order, rares to finder. Have both inventories as empty as necessary. These will be player X and Y.
Step 1: Cause the first 3 drops. If they are all meseta or all items, reset the test.
Step 2: Pickup a nonmeseta drop, it goes to player X.
Step 3: Pickup a meseta drop. If it goes to player X, then meseta is seperate. Otherwise, go to step 4.
Step 4: Pickup the last drop. If player Y gets meseta or player X gets the item, then meseta is not seperate. If not, reset the test.

If they both work on drop, use the following test:

Step 0: Begin a 2 person locked group on Liner Line C with normal items set to order, rares to finder. Have both inventories as empty as necessary. These will be player X and Y.
Step 1: Cause the first drop, If it's an item, pick it up, it goes to player X. If it's meseta, reset the test.
Step 2: Cause the next drop. If it's an item, reset the test. If it's meseta, pick it up. If it goes to player X, then meseta is seperate. Otherwise, go to step 3.
Step 3: Cause meseta or item to drop, pick it up. If player Y gets meseta or player X gets the item, then meseta is not seperate. If not, reset the test.

Eventually meseta will be proved to be either seperate or not seperate from normal items.

If meseta is not seperate, use the following test:

Step 0: Begin a 6 person group on Relics C with normal items set to order, rares to finder. Have all inventories as empty as necessary. These will be player X, and "5 guys".
Step 1: Cause 5 normal drops and pick them up. Whoever didn't recieve an item is player X. If a rare drops, reset. Otherwise go to step 2.
Step 2: Cause a drop and pick it up. If it goes to X then the set still works in large groups. If not, then the set doesn't work in large groups. If a rare drops, reset.

If meseta is seperate, use the same test, but hope you can cause 6 mesetas or 6 items to drop in a row. Reset otherwise. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

All that said, am I the only poster attempting this? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif I've typed out every single step! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_bash.gif If I could take screen shots, this would have been done by now. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rant.gif As is, this is gonna take me awhile. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_dead.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

I will run a test tonight to see what qualifies as 'rare'

I will set normal items to 'give finder,'
and rare items to 'set in order'

it's easier to test one thing at a time, that way you do not cause too many hassels.

One other thing I forgot to mention. A rined of mine who plays more than me (is such a thing possible?) feel sure that set in order works 'better' when ONE person picks up all the items. This is of course, an easy thing to test, in with a group of friends.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-24 19:54 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Items not picked up do not count in the order, end of topic.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

On 2007-04-24 11:27, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Also, I was told by an admittedly unrealiable source, that large meseta drops count as rares (meseta from Jarba, etc).



On 2007-04-24 19:51, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I will run a test tonight to see what qualifies as 'rare'

I will set normal items to 'give finder,'
and rare items to 'set in order'

it's easier to test one thing at a time, that way you do not cause too many hassels.

One other thing I forgot to mention. A rined of mine who plays more than me (is such a thing possible?) feel sure that set in order works 'better' when ONE person picks up all the items. This is of course, an easy thing to test, in with a group of friends.

[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-24 19:54 ]


Wouldn't this contradict the previous post that meseta may be sorted seperately from items. Recieving a rare creates a message that the group can see. 1* to 6* items are normal items. 7* and up are rare items. This holds true no matter what the rank is. At what amount would a meseta drop be rare? How are you testing this? Meseta drops scale with rank. You can't normally find a 10 meseta drop on S2 or a 400 meseta drop at C.

I am still unsure of how a program could "get confused" or "work better". Human error seems more likely. I am testing one thing at a time. My tests are all based on recording situations which isolate and disprove each rumor individually.

The balance of set to order means that on one can get another item until the set is complete. In a 2 person group, the first two items in a pattern are in the same first set. This means the following situations would disprove the following patterns:

If the first two drops go to the same person, items are not sorted by drops.
If the first two pickups go to the same person, items are not sorted by pickup.

If the first two meseta go to the same person, meseta are not seperate from items.
If the first two items go to the same person, items are not seperate from meseta.
If the previous should have happened but didn't, items and meseta are seperate.

If anyone doesn't get an item after the first six unskipped pickups in a six person group, the fault is in the distibuter, not human error.
If no one doesn't get an item after the first six unskipped pickups in a six person group, the fault is in human error, not the distibuter.

Trials are at rank C to avoid large meseta drops, rares set to finder to isolate normal items, groups locked to avoid changes to the group and inconclusive tests are reset. Recordings are 2 minutes at most or even a set of proper screenshots should suffice.

[Luffia]

On 2007-04-24 20:38, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Items not picked up do not count in the order, end of topic.

[RufuSwho]

this is simply not true

explain this:
three people in a run "set in order"

first rare goes to person A
next rare, person C
next rare, person B

all good so far, right...

then, next rare goes to person C
then next rare goes to person B
then next rare goes to person B

what happened?

person A got skipped, is what happened.
we did not skip any rares, nor pick up any meseta, nor regular items.

we simply tested your theory, and were being very careful to open boxes slowly and pick up the rare before opening others.

your myth is "busted"

[Para]

You know anyone can come in randomly and just post data and claim the theory is busted.

Its not surprising since this theory was created over a year ago and that lots of new data have flooded in since then and not to mention, since then the expansion was introduced which might've affected how set in order works.

Nice try but fail at troll.

[RufuSwho]

heya para,

lol not trying to trash you, i presented your theory to my buddies because i liked your post

but then the order i posted above happened.

i'm afraid that the pattern you originally described just doesn't always pan out

we did some of our own testing along the same lines but just when we though we could predict who would be next (such as when its round 2 and all but 1 pary member has received a drop) then someone would get 2 drops in one round, and someone would be skipped for a whole round, sometimes 2 rounds

it was sad. :(
i think its fun to try to figure out.
perhaps a Gm would be willing to divulge the process?

[Para]

Are you completely positive that all rares were picked up?

Are you completely positive that Player A was not skipped because he had a full inventory/maxed out on that item that dropped?

What were the items that dropped that should've went to Player A?

How often was this occurance?

There are rumours that Set In Order is broken in some instances but those are just rumours. If set in order does really work, chances that theory might be off on how the system works but your friend shouldn't be skipped for no good reason.

[RufuSwho]

hmm, let me think now

yes, all rares were picked up, very careful about that

Player A was not full, we asked him specifically about that

the items were mostly nanoresin or nanopolymer (we were doing the egg run for polymers. in fact we were pooling all our rares to make a Stormline, so who got what wasn't really an issue, except to test this)

we did this run 6 to 8 times while actively testing, and the first two time the drops fell as we would expect

example: during the first run the round 1 drops were spread evenly, and then in round 2 we were able to predict who would get the last drop

we were getting excited because it seemed to be working

then we did a run where i received the first nanopolymer, but then did not receive any other drops.

example: i was person "c" and received the first drop, follwed by drops for person A and B
the first round was complete
then during round 2 the drops went to person B, then person B again, then A then B again

the run ended with 7 drops.
A=2, B=3 and C=1

this same thing happened on the next run
the person who got the first drop ended up getting no other drops while I ended up with 3

so we started looking at the stars, such as, does the nanopolymer count for more than a nanoresin?
but during a later run we continued to get the 1,3,3 or 1,3,2 breakdown and sometimes the person who got 3 was picking up x2 nanopolymers and a resin

then my buddies started chiding me for having "busted" my (your) theory

lol, we did have fun though and thats what counts

(btw, the Stormline failed, hehe)

also we were very careful about breaking the boxes and picking up the rares before breaking others, also not picking up money. although if the meseta does count as a rare, then we were technically leaving rares (meseta) that would be throwing off the rare order

didn't sega say that all meseta was split evenly now? well, i'll continue to pay attention to this and my other 2 buddies are interested in testing it further, probably pen and paper will be the next step

Would the GM be interested in explaining this for everyone's benefit? people certainly do get worked up over the order when the big boss box drops occur

Thanks for the thread though, i'd like to hear more on this.

[Para]

GMs dont really post here. As for the drops.. are you sure it was set in order?

[RufuSwho]

Yeah, i double checked that myself when things started going wonky!

Well, i''ll post any new info here when we do some recorded testing.

Meanwhile, seya at the event Friday. :)

[Para]

Just fyi the theory is still a theory. I know there are some theories better than mine as discussed in here and maybe they're the correct ones.

[Astarin]

didn't sega say that all meseta was split evenly now?

Yes. If you are playing with items set to "Random" or "Order", all meseta is split evenly between all players. It was implemented way back around the release of the expansion, and it's a feature I like very much.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

we were doing the egg run


The problem might be that it's an Egg run. Let me explain.

Most missions have all their blocks in the same "zone" and most players stay together during a normal mission. Some missions, noticeably MAG and Egg, have some blocks in different zones. Players split up in different zones are sorted separate from the others. Separated players are not with the group where the items are picked up, so they are invalid targets for receiving those items. A similar problem happens when people were still in a cut scene at the end of Bruce or 1UP.

Random distribution would have the same problem.

If I remember correctly, you can tell if you and your team are in a different zones when your team member's buff symbols can't be seen despite them being buffed.

Anyways, here is an old relevant thread for further testing:
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115269
Test #2 is no longer valid, but the others still work and are repeatable.

There is no reason Normal Set In Order would work any differently then Rare Set In Order. I'd recommend using normal items for tests because they drop more easily in more controlled situations.

[Kumlekar]

Hrm...how did I not read that part.

Rares are assigned to nobody. You can skip all the shitty rares and not have to worry about it being "your destined red". No offense but that was some lacklustre testing that was done. Every game I play we skip moon Xs the boards and scape boards. Never once has anyone in the group been jipped because we passed over a moon x.

Don't believe me? Go make a game with just one other person in your group. Then hit up an A or S rank. Run all the way through but don't pick up any reds. Also, keep track of the order in which the reds dropped.

So for instance, a vestaline dropped, then a moon x board dropped and then a kerseline dropped, in that order. Now Go back through and pick up the vestaline, note who it went to and then skip the moon x board and go straight for the kerseline. I bet you dollars to donuts player1 gets the vestaline and player2 gets the kerseline.

Hundreds of Relic S runs farming for Hard/Power Charge with a buddy is fact enough for me.

Actually that proves nothing, because each new "round" can be different orders, P2 is getting the rare at the start of the next round, its a 50% chance that they are "skipped"

[Deissa]

your myth is "busted"


hahaha i get it, like the tv show, they say that too

are you one of them

because with that kind of with you might be

o god i can't stop laughing

[RufuSwho]

eh? "that kind of with"?

what are you saying man, spit it out!

please don't typo when you are trying to make a point ;)

Zoamel, good observation man. we were discussing the same thing during the test runs. if the order is seperate in each zone... we were all spread out certainly

also what you said about "Set in Order" for normals, well, that really does simplify the testing process. thanks for the input

are you guys on XBOX? it would be nice to meet up with you guys ,Zoamel and Para, to do some testing

everyone needs to understand what we are looking for

[Para]

Zoamel and I are both on PC.

and Egg thieves is a bad mission to test this with because when a rare gets picked up in a specific block, only players in that block will have a chance at getting the item in most cases. (The idea of zones is also good but hard to define since we don't know exactly where the zone boundaries are. I believe there are exceptions in some areas where zones extend beyond just 1 block.

[RufuSwho]

i see, so then the theory lives on!

i plan to test this with my same buddies with just normal items
and stay in one block, sticking together

hey i was reading the thread that Zoamel linked to; did anyone ever get a link to the thread that Hrith was reffering to? i searched, but never found it

with a pen a paper we can just compile data then look back for the pattern

i beleive this is what Zoamel is suggesting

[shotsfired]

I believe.... that alot of research has gone into this.... for absolutely nothing. I guess I am just too simple a person to believe anything other than what it says. if I want random, i will select "Random" If i want to set it in order, I will choose "set in order". geez....

I commend you all for your diligent research. I just hope you are still enjoying the game. This is starting to sound like a "job", except you are paying them to do it...

[Fiohna]

i see, so then the theory lives on!

i plan to test this with my same buddies with just normal items
and stay in one block, sticking together

hey i was reading the thread that Zoamel linked to; did anyone ever get a link to the thread that Hrith was reffering to? i searched, but never found it

with a pen a paper we can just compile data then look back for the pattern

i beleive this is what Zoamel is suggesting

This is the only thread that I found... The most interesting bits are in the last few pages, as it's mostly just people arguing without facts/proof. The final page (which is the one I link to) has a probability break down posted by Miraglyth of set in order when not being abused. http://boards2.sega.com/psu_board/viewtopic.php?t=16573&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=300

It also doesn't provide any insight into whether or not joining groups or leaving groups resets order or not. Miraglyth assumes that it does not but I found no testing to actually reinforce that claim, though it's what Zoamel is currently trying to organize a test for.

[Starrz]

This is the only thread that I found... The most interesting bits are in the last few pages, as it's mostly just people arguing without facts/proof. The final page (which is the one I link to) has a probability break down posted by Miraglyth of set in order when not being abused. http://boards2.sega.com/psu_board/viewtopic.php?t=16573&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=300

It also doesn't provide any insight into whether or not joining groups or leaving groups resets order or not. Miraglyth assumes that it does not but I found no testing to actually reinforce that claim, though it's what Zoamel is currently trying to organize a test for.

Thanks for linking that thread. It's a classic. I had fun rereading it.

Also leaving/joining doesn't reset the order.

[Fiohna]

I remember reading that thread back in the day, also. I stopped reading before it came to its conclusion, though.

[Larusu]

Nice thread, thanks for the explanation.