Damage Compare: Machine Gun (Cast vs Beast)

[SolomonGrundy]

let's say you have a 60/10 Beast Figunner, and a 60/10 Cast figunner.

Machine guns have low ATA, and Figunners have 'only' level 20 bullets makng the prospect of using elemental bullets on a machine gun...well...unreliable.


So I was wondering what the return on investment is for elemental bullets...what would the damage be for the high ATP beast with green bullets (no element) vs. the slightly lower ATP, but higher accuracy of a Cast with elemental bullets (vs an opposite elemental creature, naturally).

Anyone got a level 60/10 in either race who can go Grab a 3* unground machine gun and test this?

[DonRoyale]

I can't test it, but it seems ridiculously obvious-the CAST would kill. Even at 60/10, we're comparing probably a good 50-70 ATA here, and that makes a big difference.

Especially when we're talking elemental advantage. Even at level 1, it's pretty safe to assume the actual damage (considering only one bullet was fired from each gun and hit the exact same enemy) would be pretty much the same.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-11 17:35, SereneShadows wrote:
I can't test it, but it seems ridiculously obvious-the CAST would kill. Even at 60/10, we're comparing probably a good 50-70 ATA here, and that makes a big difference.

Especially when we're talking elemental advantage. Even at level 1, it's pretty safe to assume the actual damage (considering only one bullet was fired from each gun and hit the exact same enemy) would be pretty much the same.



I believe at 60/10 it's something like a 75 ATA difference between CAST and beast for fighgunner (120% ATA).

[SolomonGrundy]

Remember that that Beast is using green bullets, so no ATA reduction, and has higher ATP. The cast is using elemental bulets and the elemental damage addition is small.

I assume that when you use these elemental bullets, the ATA is so poor that some of them miss.

example: Beast and Cast both fire 10 shots.

Cast - 50, 50, 50 , 0, 50, 50, 50, 0, 50, 50
Beast - 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 0, 45, 45, 45, 45

see what I'm sayin'?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-01-11 17:57 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

Ok, I see what you're getting at but let's look at the actual numbers. One thing you need to remember is that the multipliers for the bullets are applied not just to the Gun's Att and Acc but also to the ATP and ATA of the wielder.

Both of these are 60 Male Fighgunner 10:

Base Statistics
Beast: ATP: 642 ATA: 208
Cast: ATP: 595 ATA: 285

They'll be using a Beam Vulcanic, the 8* Kubara Mechgun, with the following statistics:

963 PP 54 Att 60 Acc

With no linked bullet, the Beast would have the following stats behind every shot (no modification):

696 Att, 268 Acc

With Elemental Bullets at lvl 20, the Cast would have the following stats behind each attack (127% Att with matched element and 67% Acc):

833 Att, 231 Acc

The difference in Att is 137, as you can see the damage behind the Cast's shots is actually significantly higher than the measily 5 which you attribute in your example, it amounts to something like 27 extra points of damage behind every shot. And while I'm sure that 37 Acc that the Cast sacrifices is a significant chunk, you need to consider the rate of fire on the Machinegun which in the end obviates the few misses that he'll suffer.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-01-11 21:13, Dymalos wrote:
Ok, I see what you're getting at but let's look at the actual numbers. One thing you need to remember is that the multipliers for the bullets are applied not just to the Gun's Att and Acc but also to the ATP and ATA of the wielder.

Both of these are 60 Male Fighgunner 10:

Base Statistics
Beast: ATP: 642 ATA: 208
Cast: ATP: 595 ATA: 285

They'll be using a Beam Vulcanic, the 8* Kubara Mechgun, with the following statistics:

963 PP 54 Att 60 Acc

With no linked bullet, the Beast would have the following stats behind every shot (no modification):

696 Att, 268 Acc

With Elemental Bullets at lvl 20, the Cast would have the following stats behind each attack (127% Att with matched element and 67% Acc):

833 Att, 231 Acc

The difference in Att is 137, as you can see the damage behind the Cast's shots is actually significantly higher than the measily 5 which you attribute in your example, it amounts to something like 27 extra points of damage behind every shot. And while I'm sure that 37 Acc that the Cast sacrifices is a significant chunk, you need to consider the rate of fire on the Machinegun which in the end obviates the few misses that he'll suffer.




Perfect, and perfect. Thank you, this is the exact analysis I wanted. The Beast does get some versitility over the Cast, but if you say 231 total accuracy is enough to hit reliably in higher rank missions (and I believe you), then you are exactly right.

[Cav]

On 2007-01-11 21:13, Dymalos wrote:
Ok, I see what you're getting at but let's look at the actual numbers. One thing you need to remember is that the multipliers for the bullets are applied not just to the Gun's Att and Acc but also to the ATP and ATA of the wielder.

Both of these are 60 Male Fighgunner 10:

Base Statistics
Beast: ATP: 642 ATA: 208
Cast: ATP: 595 ATA: 285

They'll be using a Beam Vulcanic, the 8* Kubara Mechgun, with the following statistics:

963 PP 54 Att 60 Acc

With no linked bullet, the Beast would have the following stats behind every shot (no modification):

696 Att, 268 Acc

With Elemental Bullets at lvl 20, the Cast would have the following stats behind each attack (127% Att with matched element and 67% Acc):

833 Att, 231 Acc

The difference in Att is 137, as you can see the damage behind the Cast's shots is actually significantly higher than the measily 5 which you attribute in your example, it amounts to something like 27 extra points of damage behind every shot. And while I'm sure that 37 Acc that the Cast sacrifices is a significant chunk, you need to consider the rate of fire on the Machinegun which in the end obviates the few misses that he'll suffer.




Most kubara guns have lower ATA than their non kubara counterparts (barring bow) which does not make them ideal weapons for beasts. A more likely scenario is beast with 8* normal and cast with ground 8* kubara. (GRM machine gun is 100% ATA while kubara machine gun is 80% ATA)

[SolomonGrundy]

Most kubara guns have lower ATA than their non kubara counterparts (barring bow) which does not make them ideal weapons for beasts. A more likely scenario is beast with 8* normal and cast with ground 8* kubara. (GRM machine gun is 100% ATA while kubara machine gun is 80% ATA)

no, I wanted a comparison using the SAME weapon. the only variable should be the elemental bullet vs he non elemental bullet.

And for ~150 PP, I would not lower a machine gun's ATA

[Dymalos]

I do find that 231 ATA is sufficient, considering the increased accuracy that I recieve from lvl 30 bullets, I have 229 Acc using my Beam Vulcanic on my 60 Beast Guntecher 6.

As long as you understand what types of enemies the Machingun is optimal against (i.e. low defense, low evasion), then hitting from the front is not usually a problem and can contribute a significant amount of damage.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-01-11 23:12 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

I have used both, the Beam Vulcanic and the Yasminkov 002, and I have to say that the Beam Vulcanic is a better choice. The Beam Vulcanic has 160 extra PP and it regens at 18 per tic compared to 15. Sure, you sacrifice 6 measily Att and 15 Acc, but when you're talking about missing out on 15 Acc you're just splicing hairs. If I want accuracy I head for my Hanmateric which carries 340 of it. Trust me I am a Beast Guntecher and I don't run into an Accuracy problem, you just need to learn to carry weapons to deal specifically with high evasion monsters. But honestly, if you're a Cast then you can stand to lose 15 freaking Acc.

You have to consider that Machineguns absolutely lack longetivity and the Beam Vulcanic goes a long way towards fixing this problem. If you use it with a with a Melee Weapon in the main hand then you only typically need to carry a pair of them to last you through 40 minutes of mission.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-01-11 23:24 ]</font>

[Dymalos]

On 2007-01-11 22:52, Cav wrote:

On 2007-01-11 21:13, Dymalos wrote:
Ok, I see what you're getting at but let's look at the actual numbers. One thing you need to remember is that the multipliers for the bullets are applied not just to the Gun's Att and Acc but also to the ATP and ATA of the wielder.

Both of these are 60 Male Fighgunner 10:

Base Statistics
Beast: ATP: 642 ATA: 208
Cast: ATP: 595 ATA: 285

They'll be using a Beam Vulcanic, the 8* Kubara Mechgun, with the following statistics:

963 PP 54 Att 60 Acc

With no linked bullet, the Beast would have the following stats behind every shot (no modification):

696 Att, 268 Acc

With Elemental Bullets at lvl 20, the Cast would have the following stats behind each attack (127% Att with matched element and 67% Acc):

833 Att, 231 Acc

The difference in Att is 137, as you can see the damage behind the Cast's shots is actually significantly higher than the measily 5 which you attribute in your example, it amounts to something like 27 extra points of damage behind every shot. And while I'm sure that 37 Acc that the Cast sacrifices is a significant chunk, you need to consider the rate of fire on the Machinegun which in the end obviates the few misses that he'll suffer.




Most kubara guns have lower ATA than their non kubara counterparts (barring bow) which does not make them ideal weapons for beasts. A more likely scenario is beast with 8* normal and cast with ground 8* kubara. (GRM machine gun is 100% ATA while kubara machine gun is 80% ATA)



Uhm, ok. I will incorporate the 15 extra ATA. Wow the Beast suddenly has 53 Acc on the Cast. I'm not even sure that this begins to overcome the 137 Att. Honestly you people place way too much emphasis on Acc especially when you can ultimately just get behind something and let loose with a 50% accuracy boost.

In all earnestness the best possible way to do Machinegun damage is to be a Beast use the elemental bullets and get behind the things. But a Cast could accomplish the same thing with any kind of Power S unit.

[ljkkjlcm9]

All right, I'm a beast and I use a mechgun as a Fighgunner. Guess what, I use an element. Know what element? Ice. Ice freezes enemies, meaning every shot after that hits, until the ice breaks. Plus you can attack from behind. Also I carry 10 zodiarides and use one before using my mechgun. Know what that means, I rarely miss with my mechgun. Seriously. Even on Jarbas that I can't freeze, I've killed one using only my 8* mechgun with an agtaride and zodiaride. I was doing roughly 150 a hit, with 300 damage criticals occassionally(OH and this was on S rank Lab). If you know what you're doing mechgun can be used greatly.

THE JACKEL



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2007-01-12 00:11 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-01-11 23:11, Dymalos wrote:
Trust me I am a Beast Guntecher and I don't run into an Accuracy problem, you just need to learn to carry weapons to deal specifically with high evasion monsters


Remember that the original post was about Figunners, not Guntechers. 15 accuracy is a bigger issue for a beast guntecher, with the lower bullet levels, and the lower accuracy.

Interesting use of a machine gun as a guntecher though. Veeery ineresting. I would think cards, or crossbows carried better DPS.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-01-12 14:35 ]</font>

[OdinTyler]

I use Earth & Fire bullets on my Beast's machingun. Earth, more than Fire because Im trying to max that first. Either works pretty well. The trick is getting close enough & of course, using the bullets on the right enemies. On Moatoob, half of the enemies you gotta use 1 type, the other half, another (cause some enemies are both of those elements). So somehow, I make it work. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ShinMaruku]

I quit using that gun when they floored Nariko.. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif
But real nice revoery on them and if you get lucky you can hit real hard with a beast.
I just use units and not worry.