The Ideal Team.

[Gamemako]

First off, this is in no way meant to be offensive to any race or class or anything. It is merely an informed opinion. You are free to debate my suggestions, but please include your own (and your full ideal setup).

The premise is this: given unknown opponents (say an area will be chosen at random or something to that effect), what would your idea team be composed of?

//EDIT: Before I go insane and start shooting people in their brainless heads, the premise states that the team must be able to deal with ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE SCENARIOS. Stop saying "lol it r lvl depnedenta lol' or I'll start stabbing you with a fork, prison-style. Rawr, me angry. NANOBLAST.

I would suggest this team:

1. Beast Fortefighter
2. CAST Fortegunner
3. Newman Fortetecher (Fortetecher translation is not up for debate)
4. Human Wartecher
5. CAST Protranser
6. Human Guntecher

ROLES:

Fortes: God, what does a Forte class do? Boy, I wonder.

Wartecher: This fellow is to be the PRIMARY healer and debuffer. Yes, you heard right. The Fortetecher should provide the team buffs before each room (level 3 buffs), but shouldn't be near the enemies to attempt debuffs -- that can always end badly. Instead, the wartecher provides level 2 debuffs (good enough) and acts as a primary healer for himself, the fortefigher, and the protranser (when he's up close). He can also work with the Fortetecher on opponents who are resitant to physical attacks (such as the large canine opponents at the end of Holy Ground). As such, he should be a human or newman. I chose human since he is also a primary frontline figher.

Protranser: Versatility is nice. Traps add status effects, while the big guns provide ranged support. When more effective or more convenient (when laying traps, for example) the Protranser can be a frontline fighter -- pull out the axe and swing away. The CAST part is a no-brainer.

Guntecher: This little fellow is mainly for the GUN part. His specialty is applying status effects en masse. However, the reason I feel he is better than a second fortegunner is that he can also function as an emergency healer (his best weapons don't ask him to be stationary). He is also the best user of bows for those annoying defensive foes. I chose CAST for the greater gun ability and the SUV, though any race would also be suitable.

NOTE: Yes, I left Fighgunner out. Sad, isn't it. The most popular class get the axe. But seriously, I didn't leave him out because I disliked him, I left him out because he doesn't fit as well into the ideal party. Don't whine about it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2007-01-22 23:20 ]</font>

[Ether]

Ideal party is completely dependant on the area

[DarkSeph]

...........you really don't need any specifics except to throw in at least 1 Fortetecher with High Spells/Level/Class........and your good to go!

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-22 23:12, Ether wrote:
Ideal party is completely dependant on the area



I said in the premise that it would be to deal with any and every possible scenario. Jeez.

[-Crokar-]

hooray for not being ideal

[EC_Subbie]

nvm

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EC_Subbie on 2007-01-22 23:16 ]</font>

[BloodDragoon]

Anything works anywhere. It's all a matter of the intellegence of the players, not what race/class combo they are...

[Ether]

Hahah, whoops. I just skipped to the list and didn't read the rest http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

On topic heres my Ideal Bruces A team!

2 Cast Figunners
1 Cast Fortegunner
1 Cast Protranser
1 Beast Fortetecher

[Garnet_Moon]

6x FOnewearls can ruin any stage. But then again, so can 6x Beast Fortefighters.

[Tra]

4 FF 1FG 1 FT =

[isahn80]

On 2007-01-22 23:16, Ether wrote:
Hahah, whoops. I just skipped to the list and didn't read the rest http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

On topic heres my Ideal Bruces A team!

2 Cast Figunners
1 Cast Fortegunner
1 Cast Protranser
1 Beast Fortetecher



Beast Fortetecher? You realize this means you can't come with us anymore.

[Ether]

On 2007-01-22 23:22, isahn80 wrote:
Beast Fortetecher? You realize this means you can't come with us anymore.

They don't exist, so I'm still good http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Dj_SkyEpic]

My ideal team to balance any area would consist of 2 forte of each class.

2x ForteTecher Newmans
2x ForteFighter Beasts/Casts
2x ForteGunner Newmns/Casts/Humans

My Ideal team for speed runs:
2x Fortefighter Beasts
3x Fortegunner Casts
1x ForteTecher Newmans

My Ideal team for fun stuff:

6x Protranser
.............Blow it all UP!!! NAO!~ XD

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-22 23:18, Garnet_Moon wrote:
6x FOnewearls can ruin any stage. But then again, so can 6x Beast Fortefighters.



Six Newman Fortetechers vs. SS Go-Vahras, let's say they're immune to freeze at their insanely high level. Owie. Six beast fortefighters versus a bundle of angry Tengohs. Their faces just got melted, shadow priest style.

[DRO]

My ideal party would be me my pm and the beast lady

[mariwan]

Human protransers arent in there wtf? 0_o

[Remedy]

Fortecher translation is ALWAYS up for debate.

[Garnet_Moon]

On 2007-01-22 23:23, Gamemako wrote:
Their faces just got melted, shadow priest style.


XD

[Ether]

Forte-techer makes sense, it fits with all the other names, forte-fighter, forte-gunner and war/gun-techer

Forte-cher does not


On 2007-01-22 23:57, mariwan wrote:
Human protransers arent in there wtf? 0_o

Cast has higher hp, atp, ata, dfp, and SUV

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ether on 2007-01-23 00:08 ]</font>

[Garnet_Moon]

On 2007-01-23 00:07, Ether wrote:
Forte-techer makes sense, it fits with all the other names, forte-fighter, forte-gunner and war/gun-techer

Forte-cher does not

Well that may be true, but Fortetecher just sounds sutpid. Fortecher is clearly superior.

[mariwan]

Do not judge the race and class by its capabilities,judge it by the player who uses it.

[Shadow_Wing]

but a good player using the ideal race > good player using an organic

anyways my ideal team is:

Beast ForteFighter 2x
Cast ForteGunner 2x
Newman ForteTecher 2x

You just can't deny that Fortes do their jobs well and easily XD

[imfanboy]

Yes, but whether or not fortegunners are better than guntechers is easily up for debate.

While the fortegunners may have marginally higher ATP, (.1 about), the only thing they have for them above the guntecher is the grenade launcher - and if there's a protranser on the team, the point becomes moot.

Guntechers are:

More mobile (twin handguns, superior 1-handed weapon selection)
ARGUABLY better at SEs (rifles are difficult to level at best, but bows go up to 21+ with ease)
and have a very useful secondary job that, with one-handed guns, they can perform WHILE putting out offensive ability as well.


Now, before you get all defensive, I'd like to say that quite a few of my best friends play fortegunners and they're hardly useless;

THE BEST PART OF THIS GAME IS THAT NO CLASS IS GIMPED.

Every class is useful, and while some race/class combos may not be as efficient as others, the fact is we can all play what we want to without falling prey to the "melee Ranger" syndrome - ya know, where a guy likes playing a Ranger, but can't afford the arrows so he goes up in close and personal?

And I long ago said that my ideal party was:

1 Fortefighter
2 Protransers
1 Wartecher
2 Guntechers

The fortefighter and the wartecher melee, with the wartecher providing debuffs/buffs. The protransers decide whether or not the situation requires SEs (burning big creatures) or melee. The Guntechers rove around the battlefield with crossbows/cards and wands, healing when necessary - a GT with a decent wand can heal 400 easy (mine's creeping up on 600 per resta now with a 9* wand, tyvm Remedy), and if they just keep everyone topped off instead of healing only in emergencies they should do great.


MUCH more versatile. There are so few tech-resistant enemies in the game that a fortetecher purely isn't necessary - at last count, I think there were 2? 3 maybe? Not counting the bugs, but you can always burn those. A WT with a 9* wand can also dish out reasonably powerful Digas as well.

And TBH too many fortetechers so get obsessed by the pretty lights and shiny bangs that they forget to heal their friends, or decide "The wartecher/guntecher can handle the buffs/debuffs; they're faster at it than me anyway!" <_<

Note, too, that this party has 5 bows/rifles (depending on personal choice); Onmagoug or Dimmagolus isn't gonna last long once they get to grips with him....

But I like forteteching. It's fun! If you must, you can swap out one Guntecher for a Fortetecher. ^_^


EDIT: Note that I didn't include race because it doesn't matter. ^-^ I'd like to see the damage a Beast guntecher could dish out TBH....


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-01-23 02:34 ]</font>

[ne1first]

Ideal Party is:

6x skilled people.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ne1first on 2007-01-23 03:01 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ne1first on 2007-01-23 08:43 ]</font>

[ne1first]

imafanboy: what the hell are you talking about? +0.1 ATP? I have fortegunner and guntecher at lv10 and my fG owns my GT in every aspect. Even when GT gets S dual guns my fG will outdamage him with A rank ones. So yeah.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ne1first on 2007-01-23 03:05 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

LOL UR DEPENDENT

na, just kidding. I would say 1 Fortetecher or Wartecher, maybe 2 or 3 Fortefighters and/or Fighgunners, and the rest whatever.

[Rashiid]

6 SuperForces!!!

ud be surprised what we can get done in a party of 6 of us

most of our spells hav a that 'pintch' effect on enemys, making them stop for a second, so if all 6 of us are doing that, they never get to move....

++ infinate resta!!!!!!!!!!

[omegapirate2k]

On 2007-01-23 00:09, Garnet_Moon wrote:

On 2007-01-23 00:07, Ether wrote:
Forte-techer makes sense, it fits with all the other names, forte-fighter, forte-gunner and war/gun-techer

Forte-cher does not

Well that may be true, but Fortetecher just sounds sutpid. Fortecher is clearly superior.



You Fortecher elitists make me sick. You come to peoples INNOCENT threads and RUIN them with your pro-fortecher, anti-Fortetecher agenda.

[juno-6]

If i was somehow unable to log out of the game and sucked into it all virtual reality status like the 1st dot hack and my life depended on surviving any mission that arose with only one select team it would be this har list below, enjoy.

1 Newman Wartecher
1 Beast Wartecher
1 Beast Fortefighter
1 Cast Fighgunner
1 Cast Fortegunner
1 Human Guntecher

The Numan WT is for buffing/healing and when neccesary helping out a bit with the bad dudes.

The Beast WT is for beating up the bad dudes and helping the numan with healing.

The Beast fF is for GRRR! HULK ANGRY! HULK SMASH!

The Cast fiG is for HulkSmash/ Mob control/ status fx.

The Cast fG is for status effects/ pew pew.

And lastly me, the homely Human GT is there for De-buffing/ Status fx/ herding/ emergency medic.

[Rika-san]

On 2007-01-22 23:09, Gamemako wrote:
First off, this is in no way meant to be offensive to any race or class or anything. It is merely an informed opinion. You are free to debate my suggestions, but please include your own (and your full ideal setup).

The premise is this: given unknown opponents (say an area will be chosen at random or something to that effect), what would your idea team be composed of?

//EDIT: Before I go insane and start shooting people in their brainless heads, the premise states that the team must be able to deal with ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE SCENARIOS. Stop saying "lol it r lvl depnedenta lol' or I'll start stabbing you with a fork, prison-style. Rawr, me angry. NANOBLAST.

I would suggest this team:

1. Beast Fortefighter
2. CAST Fortegunner
3. Newman Fortetecher (Fortetecher translation is not up for debate)
4. Human Wartecher
5. CAST Protranser
6. Human Guntecher

ROLES:

Fortes: God, what does a Forte class do? Boy, I wonder.

Wartecher: This fellow is to be the PRIMARY healer and debuffer. Yes, you heard right. The Fortetecher should provide the team buffs before each room (level 3 buffs), but shouldn't be near the enemies to attempt debuffs -- that can always end badly. Instead, the wartecher provides level 2 debuffs (good enough) and acts as a primary healer for himself, the fortefigher, and the protranser (when he's up close). He can also work with the Fortetecher on opponents who are resitant to physical attacks (such as the large canine opponents at the end of Holy Ground). As such, he should be a human or newman. I chose human since he is also a primary frontline figher.

Protranser: Versatility is nice. Traps add status effects, while the big guns provide ranged support. When more effective or more convenient (when laying traps, for example) the Protranser can be a frontline fighter -- pull out the axe and swing away. The CAST part is a no-brainer.

Guntecher: This little fellow is mainly for the GUN part. His specialty is applying status effects en masse. However, the reason I feel he is better than a second fortegunner is that he can also function as an emergency healer (his best weapons don't ask him to be stationary). He is also the best user of bows for those annoying defensive foes. I chose CAST for the greater gun ability and the SUV, though any race would also be suitable.

NOTE: Yes, I left Fighgunner out. Sad, isn't it. The most popular class get the axe. But seriously, I didn't leave him out because I disliked him, I left him out because he doesn't fit as well into the ideal party. Don't whine about it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2007-01-22 23:20 ]</font>





That is how the JP servers are. WT heal the hunters, GT heals the ranged and FT does damage. Everytime I play on the US servers it irritates me how people think FT are the main healers. Then I logout and go play on the JP server ^.^

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-01-23 06:08, omegapirate2k wrote:

On 2007-01-23 00:09, Garnet_Moon wrote:

On 2007-01-23 00:07, Ether wrote:
Forte-techer makes sense, it fits with all the other names, forte-fighter, forte-gunner and war/gun-techer

Forte-cher does not

Well that may be true, but Fortetecher just sounds sutpid. Fortecher is clearly superior.



You Fortecher elitists make me sick. You come to peoples INNOCENT threads and RUIN them with your pro-fortecher, anti-Fortetecher agenda.



LOL!!!! The well placed ALL CAPS words reminds me of a certain poster here.....

[Turambar]

On 2007-01-23 03:03, ne1first wrote:
imafanboy: what the hell are you talking about? +0.1 ATP? I have fortegunner and guntecher at lv10 and my fG owns my GT in every aspect. Even when GT gets S dual guns my fG will outdamage him with A rank ones. So yeah.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ne1first on 2007-01-23 03:05 ]</font>


I think he meant it as in a 10% difference, which would be slightly off (Its actually 14%). That might not seem the big deal, and isn't when you factor in the fact that GTs can use bows, with their def pierce. However, fGs have a 40% ata boost over GTs. Now, most might look at it and laugh, because ata isn't important to most. But if you take a look at the A rank arm unit that is +150 atp/-80 ata, only fGs would be able to hit consistently even with that unit equiped. And 150 atp is nothing to scoff at.

[Kura-X]

the best team....




no Fortefighters

[imfanboy]

But in the end, gunners aren't about dealing damage, they're about procing SEs that help the frontline fighters and burning the big nasties.

<_< You all seem to be missing that point.

And yes, dfp is VERY important; however, elemental armors balance that out nicely. I take far less damage as a newman GT than my cast fortegunner friends take, just 'cause i understand the elements and have synthed good armors.

And I do 500 damage per wave of my 8* fan, 450 with every pointblank shot of my 7* crossbow, and 220 damage with every shot from my twin handguns; how much more damage do I possibly have to do? *blink, blink* if I'm solo, I let my 410 do the damage; if I'm in a team no way I'd match a fortefighter or a figunner or even a fortetecher in damage even as a fortegunner.

Damage isn't my job. Being able to burn/freeze/shock while healing my teammates IS.

And while I do have grenade launcher envy, hopefully Mayalee Beam will make up for that when I can buy it.....

[Gazette]

1 Wartecher

Go solo.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gazette on 2007-01-23 11:54 ]</font>

[RadiantLegend]

2x Fortfighters
2x Fortegunners
2x Fortetechers

^_^ hybrids can suck it.

[Rizen]

On 2007-01-22 23:23, Dj_SkyEpic wrote:
My Ideal team for fun stuff:

6x Protranser
.............Blow it all UP!!! NAO!~ XD

HELL YEAH!!! LETS DO THIS!

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-01-23 11:47, imfanboy wrote:
But in the end, gunners aren't about dealing damage, they're about procing SEs that help the frontline fighters and burning the big nasties.
...
no way I'd match a fortefighter or a figunner or even a fortetecher in damage even as a fortegunner.


Forces get SE's too, hell they get level 30 ammo skills. If all Rangers are here for are SE's, fire the lot of them. ForteTecher can totally cover that with their level 30 bow skills AND count as a damage dealer with their techs :/

Or, maybe LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS gunners have decent options for damage output. However: if you want to do hunter or force levels of damage, you have to multiply your damage across a number of hits or a number of targets the way a PA or Tech does. Try a laser or grenade. If you only have one thing to shoot at, shotgun. Not as good, but capable of focusing on a single target.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-01-23 12:52 ]</font>

[Neith]

At least one Fortefighter (Fighgunners are not, and never will be tanks).
1x Fortetecher (It's Fortetecher, get used to it)
At least one Fortegunner
1x Wartecher
1x Protranser

That works quite well- me and a few friends tried it on S-Rank Dimmagolus, with 1 fF, 1 fG, 1 fT and 1 WT. The WT and fF got in close, the fF takes the brunt of the damage. The WT heals the fF, and buffs with Shifta/Deband when able to. The fG and fT stay back- the fT can heal the fG, and the fG can nail Dimma's wings with Rifle shots. Obviously, the WT focuses mainly on melee, you only need to heal the fF when they're on critical HP. Likewise, the fT should make sure to get an EXP tag, and/or get in nuke range, if possible.

Oh, and I'd love to see any FO inflict SE's, damage deal, and keep the party in good health. It doesn't happen- leave the SE's to the Rangers.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: UrikoBB3 on 2007-01-23 12:32 ]</font>

[ShinMaruku]

The truly ideal team is a bunch of cheaters with 9,999 PP and a PA storm. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Garnet_Moon]

On 2007-01-23 11:58, Ragolismine wrote:
2x Fortfighters
2x Fortegunners
2x Fortetechers

^_^ hybrids can suck it.


I agree. I don't care for Jacks of All Trades. If you wanna play cards go play Pokemon. I want Masters of their field in my parties.

[Rizen]

Personally, having all forte classes would be boring for me...

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-01-23 12:30, UrikoBB3 wrote:
Oh, and I'd love to see any FO inflict SE's, damage deal, and keep the party in good health. It doesn't happen- leave the SE's to the Rangers.


I would think you'd kick the Gunner and fill their spot with a fT or PT under orders just to spam SE and try not to do any damage.

It would be _really_ sad if the perception was that you could replace a Gunner just by asking someone else who's already busy with two roles on the team to cover for 'em... as it is they at least rate highly enough that you need to replace them for head-count.

[VanHalen]

On 2007-01-22 23:15, -Crokar- wrote:
hooray for not being ideal



im so far away from ideal its funny

[Reiichi]

Ideal party is 1 PT, 1 healer, and 4 other people to help carry traps. How come noone has ever thought of this yet?

I think I'd prefer 1 PT, 2 FT, 3 FiGunners. You have trap power, very good melee and ranged power, and multiple forces for either splitting up, or needing heavy nuking like in GoF.

[panzer_unit]

The other people carrying traps can be PT's too.

[Vhex]

70/ 10 ForteFighter Beast -Adaka Val <--me
70/ 10 ForteFighter Beast -Zeed Val <--female
70/ 10 ForteFighter Beast -Bogga Val <--female
70/ 10 ForteFighter Beast -Vande Val <--female
70/ 10 ForteFighter Beast -Adaka Val <--female
70/ 10 Wartecher Beast (Expendable For buffs mostly must be FEMALE)

<3

Ideal team for me. No foolish Rangers/Forces to slow us down. A Nanoblast for every situation and PowerRanger-like boss fights. 4nd 73h b34z7 G1rlz 4r3 73h b3z7

Fortetecher Newman are overrated and have no place on my dream team.

[VanHalen]

the real ideal party is......the one who can get the job done.

[Almalexia]

Ideal. . . .? More like excluding classes.

[NPCMook]

On 2007-01-23 02:56, ne1first wrote:
Ideal Party is:

6x skilled people.
FTW

[Remedy]

May I ask this to all people who prefer Fortetecher (that was almost painful to type) over Fortecher:

Do you prefer Ganna Line over Gunner Line?

[zanotam]

On 2007-01-23 12:30, UrikoBB3 wrote:
At least one Fortefighter (Fighgunners are not, and never will be tanks).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: UrikoBB3 on 2007-01-23 12:32 ]</font>

Fortefighter's tanking lol. After reading that its pretty obvious you're smoking SOMETHING. FF can't take, simply because they can't hold enemy attention. Now WT THEY can tank in a very ODD but effective fashion. WT has best overall Defence potential of any class for a reason.
WT: Tied for highest HP, Second Best DFP, Second Best EVP, Second Best MST. Obviously an all around tank.

FF: Tied for highest HP, Best DFP, BY FAR worst EVP, Tied for worst MST. They can take a hit, but aren't tankers.

[Garnet_Moon]

On 2007-01-23 17:19, Remedy wrote:
May I ask this to all people who prefer Fortetecher (that was almost painful to type) over Fortecher:

Do you prefer Ganna Line over Gunner Line?


Well, personally I don't care for either name because i'm a fortecher not a ranger. x_X

[Turambar]

On 2007-01-23 11:47, imfanboy wrote:
But in the end, gunners aren't about dealing damage, they're about procing SEs that help the frontline fighters and burning the big nasties.

<_< You all seem to be missing that point.

And yes, dfp is VERY important; however, elemental armors balance that out nicely. I take far less damage as a newman GT than my cast fortegunner friends take, just 'cause i understand the elements and have synthed good armors.

And I do 500 damage per wave of my 8* fan, 450 with every pointblank shot of my 7* crossbow, and 220 damage with every shot from my twin handguns; how much more damage do I possibly have to do? *blink, blink* if I'm solo, I let my 410 do the damage; if I'm in a team no way I'd match a fortefighter or a figunner or even a fortetecher in damage even as a fortegunner.

Damage isn't my job. Being able to burn/freeze/shock while healing my teammates IS.

And while I do have grenade launcher envy, hopefully Mayalee Beam will make up for that when I can buy it.....


Oh I hit things for SE4 just fine and you know it. Rifle is more or less the fastest gun that can achieve SE4, which is part of my attraction towards it. And while fortegunners are not meant to be the best dps outlets, why not aim for some more damage if you can do the "main" job as well as ever? Being the artillery characters that we also are(laser cannon and nade), those are guns that don't exactly have anywhere close to an effective SE rate, and are purely damage dealers. Seriously, what other job is going to be using that arm unit any how? -80 ata is going to have too dramatic of an effect on hit rate for all other jobs, imo.

*Cough* 4 Star armor user *Cough* In all seriousness, its not exactly easy to pump out a phantomline for every element. And I think most other fGs will agree, once you go phantom set, you never go back.

On topic, while I havn't quite put the idea of race into my equation, my preferred team would be

2 Fortefighter/Fighgunner
1 Fortegunner
1 Wartecher
1 Fortetecher
1 Protranser

Yeah, it seems kinda generic, but generic has a tendency to work well, even if its not always the best.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Turambar on 2007-01-23 22:41 ]</font>

[Shadow_Wing]

If you really want to know... Fortegunners can dish out damage, using lvled and the right element these are my damage outputs on lvl 71 mobs with DJ SkyEpic as my buffer:

Rifle (phantom with line): 620/hit
Dual Handgun : 410/hit, 820 total
Shotgun: 300/hit, 1500dmg total
Grenade: 510/hit, 2040 total

Now we're in now way in the end just "SE" procers, with a well tuned Fortegunner can easily keep up with the dmg outputs of the other forte classes, it's just a fG has to do a bit more work to catch up.

[Reiichi]

Hmm, I guess it doesn't bother me either way I or someone else says it, though I do always type out fortetecher cuz everything else is forte =p

I'll never type out fi(gh)unner though, psh, figunner it is. Any fortetechers eyes that I have hurt with this post was unintentional, yet will continue to do so. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

I am unfamiliar with ganna and gunner, is that some oldschool PSO thing?

[Reiichi]

The damage numbers shadow_wing posted makes me sad.

There's no way I could do that kind of damage using normal attacks with a 50% 9* weapon. I'd have to PA spam nonstop to get ahead (or maybe not once dagga gets nerfed) unless I can also consistently hit more than 1 target. I also lack SE 2-4, flinch, and range.

I could switch to a fortegunner while dropping like 5m and be fully loaded weapon with 2 full palettes of 8-9* weapons including the phantom line. Only thing I'd lack would be bullet skills which although very time consuming, would be something I could do while leveling my job. 5m might get you a single 30% elemental weapon. =p Or you can go 10% and spam PAs, but I bet our damage would be inferior to those numbers.

Wait what the hell, my figunner couldn't even do half that twin pistol damage at 60/8. And that'd be on onma S tengohgs with 8* twins and agatarides. Twin pistol damage actually goes that high?

[Chuiji]

Realize, please, that he has more than likely maxed out his 2xpistol bullets and that he is talking about lv3 shifta.
~ And you're not supposed to do more damage with normal attacks. Your PA damage is supposed to add up.

[BloodDragoon]

Also he's probably lv 70 already looking at his class levels.

Anyway I can match those numbers as a Fortefighter with the right element weapon at LV 59 while beating them with PA useage. The whole point of his post from what I see isn't saying FG's are uber DD's its dispelling the myth that all they can do is proc status effects.

[Chuiji]

After re-reading his post...you're right blood.
And point conceded, they're more than just status afflicters.

[imfanboy]

Shadow_wing's little story makes me want to get my GT up to max level just to see how it compares fully - right now she's only at GT6/lv64 and her bullets are hovering around 21. Not only that she's a newman too, the lowest ATP class. We have what, a 150-200 point difference in ATP before units? Mine is base 346.

I seem to deal about half his damage with lv1 shifta/zalure, except for with my Alteric (6), in which case it's only about 100 under his Phantom combo - not bad, not bad at all. Would like to see what I do with lv3 shifta/zalure. And with an Alteric 10, but w/e. I don't need toplevel equipment to survive.

(besides, in any server but the US PS2, phantom/phantom line isn't exactly easy to come by, whereas you can grind a Hikuari to respectable levels and dish out a lot more than your fortegunner buddy very easily. Quit thinking that everyone is rich my friend!)


But once AGAIN, I state that it's about SEs. For me, the actual DAMAGE my dual handguns deal is secondary. When I'm solo it's the infect that I like - 30% HP damage over 20 seconds? That can kill enemies instead of leaving them with 1 HP? ysplzmre. When I'm in a team... well, I stick to crossbows/cards so I can heal better while still dishing out SEs to help out my team, or swap out to the bow when a big baddie shows up.

An 'ideal' party, like the one the op seems to be looking for, should be able to handle any area with aplomb, with no party members feeling like 'dead weight' and each person doing a bang-up job. My party could do that quite well, thank you. ^-^

5 fortetechers DO rip through Grove of Fanatics, with maybe a fortefighter to handle the newmans. 6 gunners of any stripe will own Onma S. 5 fortefighters will tear apart Mines Defense S, with maybe a wartecher to supply heals and buffs/debuffs.

The trick is to think of a party that could just jump in anywhere and waltz through the enemies like grass through a goose. The classes are balanced so well that we could come up with dozens of potential combinations, but don't act as though I kicked your puppy by saying "Guntechers can do a fortegunner's job and heal on top of that, so in an 'ideal' party they'd be the superior choice."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-01-24 03:36 ]</font>

[Callous]

On 2007-01-22 23:23, Ether wrote:

On 2007-01-22 23:22, isahn80 wrote:
Beast Fortetecher? You realize this means you can't come with us anymore.

They don't exist, so I'm still good http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


Hey! I'm a beast Fortetecher (Fortefighter also, but still).

[MayLee]

I'm a Human ForteTecher..I seem to be doing just fine. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

>.>

<.<

(Whoever knows me and will mostlikely protest to my post because they are evil.. I shall keel you. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif )

[Turambar]

1. Shadow_wing's damage makes me sad too..... I still can't seem to break 570 on an olgohmon with the phantom set and lv 30 burning shot and shifta. Of course, I'm 4 lvs/1 job lv lower, and female, but still ;_;

2. Ah, and lvling the buffs only increases its range and duration I think, not potency. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

3. Even on PC/PS2, phantomlines are still quite hard to come by. Buying them is out of the question with its ridiculous prices, and synthing is, well, I got lucky with my first, but I'm too scared to go for a second.....

4. No, guntechers can't become support artillery, no matter how hard they try.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Turambar on 2007-01-24 08:08 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Turambar on 2007-01-24 08:10 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

Shadow_wing has some pretty crazy damage numbers. I'm curious as to how I would do when I reach that high. My damage is currently around the half-point of his. 51 character level/5 GT level currently.

Not that I expect to be the big damage dealer, but those numbers definitely look like one.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-01-24 08:08 ]</font>

[ne1first]

those numbers are normal for a 70/10 fG with Shifta3 AND solid/power (or hard/power)

[Reimiko]

regarding your not bad at all bow damage, you need to take into consideration that a rifle will fire much faster than a bow. Damage per hit comparison is meaningless you'd have to take a sample over a set amount of time of total damage in that time frame to really determine any useful information. Arbitrary information like that still only says that gt bow damage is weaker despite the defense piercing property that it retains as well as their higher elemental bonus.

[Gen2000]

Super elite balance time record crushing team on any map:

3 Beast Fighgunners with Power Nanoblast
2 Newman Fortetecher
1 Cast Fortegunner with Strum and Grom Buster.

For Bruce, just subtract the Fortegunner.

Provide a map this team doesn't rape, not just talking "clear safely or doesn't have a weakness", talking straight up slaugther and I'll tell you how or agree with you if need be.

[Shadow_Wing]

Hehe yea, lvl 69/10 ForteGunner with a Solid / Power S XD and a shifta tier 3. With Agis I average around 20ish damage less than that. I really mean it when Fortegunners have to work a bit harder to hit high damage marks.


The whole point of his post from what I see isn't saying FG's are uber DD's its dispelling the myth that all they can do is proc status effects.

My point exactly, I hate being called a SE whore when really I can deal some nice damage. Yes my friend who's a female beast ForteFighter can deal considerably more damage than me with his PAs, 1800 axe hits anyone? XD but I do give Fortetechers a run for their money.

Shifta @ 11 and @ 21 increases potency, 13 and 15% respectively? and increases range and duration.

My base ATP is 625 right now, prolly be 632~ in the end.

[-Ryuki-]

My best team would be:

2 ForteFighter
2 ForteTecher
2 ForteGunner

Yay~

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-24 15:36, Shadow_Wing wrote:
Hehe yea, lvl 69/10 ForteGunner with a Solid / Power S XD and a shifta tier 3. With Agis I average around 20ish damage less than that. I really mean it when Fortegunners have to work a bit harder to hit high damage marks.


The whole point of his post from what I see isn't saying FG's are uber DD's its dispelling the myth that all they can do is proc status effects.

My point exactly, I hate being called a SE whore when really I can deal some nice damage. Yes my friend who's a female beast ForteFighter can deal considerably more damage than me with his PAs, 1800 axe hits anyone? XD but I do give Fortetechers a run for their money.

Shifta @ 11 and @ 21 increases potency, 13 and 15% respectively? and increases range and duration.

My base ATP is 625 right now, prolly be 632~ in the end.



I've never seen an 1800 axe hit, but that would require an ATP of... OVER 9000! (Sorry, I had to do it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

Also, since you hit twice as fast as an axe, you're really comparing 1250 to 1800, and since you add on level four status effects at up to 2400 a tick, you're outdamaging the fortefighter.

[Garnet_Moon]

I change my stance.

The ideal team is whatever class I feel like inviting. I'll make any party work. That's what my buffs are for. :3

[-Ryuki-]

On 2007-01-24 17:39, Garnet_Moon wrote:
I change my stance.

The ideal team is whatever class I feel like inviting. I'll make any party work. That's what my buffs are for. :3

That, was admirable.

-Applauds.-

And no, no sarcasm. I meant it n_n

[ShinMaruku]

Not with me ya would. I only need one buff.

[Kimil]

THE Ideal Team:
1- Fortefighter - Beast
2- Fighunner - Cast/Human
3- Wartecher - Beast (yes, not Human OR Newman)
4- ForteGunner - Cast
5-Protranser - Cast
6-Fortetecher - Newman.

Thats it, thats is my Ideal Party

1-Main Melee
2-Secondary Melee, with better ATA less ATP
3-Priamry Healer/Tirtiary Melee (why beast? because, as the role of healer/debuff/somebuffs/ their low TP means shit. I play as this class/race combo, and with my wands/sta force/retier I heal just fine all the time. Buffs and Debuffs DO NOT use TP at all, so low TP means shit all. The melee aspect of Wartecher is maximized on, and the support aspect is not coprimized, but attack spells are shit (which is why I don't use them at all))
4-Range Support/SE
5-Primary SE and subsitute Ranger
6-NO HEALLING, AT ALL. You little defenceless wonder stay in the back and nuke the HELL out of everything., just do the major damage and don't get killed in the process. Leave healing and debuffs/buff(durring battle) to the beast wartecher who can survive anything)

[Mio]

3 Cast ForteGunner
2 Beast ForteFighter
1 Newman ForteTecher

[ljkkjlcm9]

Basically all I've gotten out of this thread, is most of you don't think the fighgunner is any good. Try telling that to any group I've ever been in, especially on Bruce Runs.

If you know how to use you're class correctly, you can be invaluable to the team

THE JACKEL

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-25 11:12, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
Basically all I've gotten out of this thread, is most of you don't think the fighgunner is any good. Try telling that to any group I've ever been in, especially on Bruce Runs.

If you know how to use you're class correctly, you can be invaluable to the team

THE JACKEL



Not at all. You simply failed to see the point of this thread. Should I clarify it for you?

We're looking for an all-around team to tackle anything. Not just one area. Not Bruce's Dungeon. Not Demons Above. Not Holy Ground. Anything. We're looking for an ideal which is certainly nothing more than just that: ideal. In any real situation, you will alter the team to fit the needs of the area. For the purpose of this thread (an all-around team), Fighgunner does not fit the bill. That does not mean anyone believes them inept.

People really need to stop extrapolating upon a single point.

[Reiichi]

Fortefighters don't have much to offer compared to a figunner. Slightly less damage yet won't be gimp against jarbas, tengohgs, and other flying creatures. In the random selection of zones any fortefighters you have would be operating at 50% efficiency on many of the 'bad' monster types versus a figunner who would only be handicapped against robots.

A figunner dishes about 90% the damage as a fortefighter, and axes although lol big numbers, lose out to spears because dus daggas is so hax with high damage, accuracy, and speed. Twin pistols with 20 bullets along with figunner higher ata provide good damage and status effects where applicable. A fortefighter would have to spam photon charges and rely on spamming PAs to maintain damage. Not impossible but impractical. If a fortefighter relies on a pistol then they would likely be doing a little better than half the damage as a figunner with twins.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-01-25 11:59, Reiichi wrote:
A figunner dishes about 90% the damage as a fortefighter, and axes although lol big numbers, lose out to spears because dus daggas is so hax with high damage, accuracy, and speed.

I've got both and my lv11 Anga Redda walks all over lv25 Dus Daggas. I've never played with a more effective PA, in fact. It starts with some delay, but the first two parts of the combo are 4 increasingly fast axe hits against 2 mobs in a really wide AOE... so you don't have to work hard at all to catch two mobs with it for twice the winning. That part ends in a juggle too, so you can jog a couple steps and repeat the whole thing from behind.

EDIT: I think a lot of the FighGunner hate is because people are picking PT so frequently. They do a damn good job covering melee and range damage as well as the whole trap thing. My bow does damage on par with my equal-level FighGunner buddy's twins... only with better ATA probably and SE4. Now that I've got an axe I'm doing a pretty good job keeping up for melee damage output.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-01-25 12:17 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

Yes, Anga Redda pwns Dus Daggas ALREADY, before Daggas gets nerfed. Quicker, easier to aim, and while the accuracy is lower (true enough), as everyone knows maneuvering counts for more.

Unless you're floating 5 40%+ 9* spears like one joker I saw day before yesterday, but that's not exactly an everyday thing, now is it? Seriously. 50% dark spear was doing 800 a Dus Daggas hit to the Kog Nadds... not crits, ordinary hits...

[Reiichi]

I am one of those that doesn't highly value maneuvering unless it's a life or death deal =p

Spears allow me to attack from any angle and won't scatter monsters, though it is easier to line up multiple targets with the axe.

But the main reason I don't like axe is the 209 ata drop between the 9* axe and spear. Getting behind 1 monster sure, as long as that monster isn't targeting you. When you add 2 monsters to the equation then there is a small chance that you will succeed in nailing both from the flank at the same time. Knocking them up would further screw up your back attack.

Axe from the front does not bode well =/ and the PA is slower than dus daggas to both start and finish which leaves you more open to interruptions.

My Redda (capped) is higher than my Daggas, but I still prefer to use spears. I might also be a joker =p

Do any axe users try comboing 1 axe swing with redda? Feels like I get an extra swing with half the delay.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Reiichi on 2007-01-25 12:40 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Actually, most melee weapons seem to play like that... you can get started quicker on a PA by taking a regular attack or two first. It's just that axe is slow enough to make it really obvious.

[SolomonGrundy]

I'm with the Fortefighters/Gimp camp (and I have Beast ForteFighter)

Jarbra: FF MST/Stamina is lacking
Tengoh: FF has no good gun solutions
Other Flying enemies: see above
Status effects: limited to SE1
DoTs: none
Traps: can't use

Female Cast Figunner: 14 Stamina, Traps, 87% of the HP& ATP of the male cast FF.

FFs may get axes, but ATP is HIGHLY overated. What's better by far is not being so one dimensional


2xFigunner (Cast and Beast)
1xForteGunner (Female Cast)
1xWartecher (F Newman, or Male Human)
1xProtranser (Male Cast)
1xForteTecher (Female Newman)




EDIT: forgot my team!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-01-25 16:17 ]</font>

[BahnKnakyu]

I'd go with the OP's list, but switch out one fG for a GT, only because I like a support oriented group with redundant heals and buffs more than anything else.

* Fortefighter - To do raw damage, and at the same time control groups of mobs by smacking stuff around.
* Fortegunner - To do good damage from afar - kind of like a flowing yet stable source of damage compared to the fF, which is spikes of damage with some rests in between. On of course, to get those SEs on them when needed.
* Guntechers - Mobility and spot support with SEs flying all over the place to cover the Wartecher and Fortefighter. They'll mostly be responsible for keeping the ranged members alive, but this doesn't mean they're barred from going near the fighters and healing them should the WT or fT be unable to.
* Wartecher - I agree here - I believe WTs make better healers solely because of their close proximity to the fF. They will be the primary debuffers and healers only because they'll be next to the crap. The fT won't be, level 21 j/z/z be dammed.
* Fortetecher - Has to be newman. Primary source of buffs when there's rests in between rooms. The WT will do "spot" buffs should they expire in the middle of a fight. Otherwise, they'll be in the back with the fG nuking the crap out of stuff.
* Protranser - The Protranser NEEDS to use traps at the right situations - when there's big stuff that needs to go down right now or controlled in some manner that the other team members won't be able to do. Otherwise (provided his class level is 6 or 7) he'll go in and out of the front lines, switching between his RA and HU weapons as the situation deems proper.

But I do agree, a party with hybrids makes things much easier to manage and certainly a lot more interesting. With this party the fT is safe in the back. The PT can do whatever he wants. The fF will be doing his thing kicking the crap out of stuff. The fG will be keeping the damage flowing and SEing stuff. The two GTs can go between the fT and fG (and each other, mind you) and keep them going. The WT will be able to cover the fF and PT - hopefully taking less damage because the fF will be keeping the stuff eating dirt more than smacking at the party.

[juno-6]

What I don't get is the popularity of the Forte parties?

2 fF
2 fG
2 fT

They're very limiting. With the Hybrid parties you get a lot more opportunity to handle a situation. For instance with the Forte party you have...

2 fighters
2 gunners
2 techers

BUT say with this hybrid party for instance,
1 Wartecher
1 Wartecher
1 Fortefighter
1 Fighgunner
1 Fortegunner
1 Guntecher

you get....check this out...

4 fighters
3 Gunners
3 techers

like omfg!!!! you'd have to have a party of 10 if you wanted to do that with all Forte classes.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-01-25 20:46 ]</font>

[Alisha]

why would you intentionally put a wartecher into a situation where they would have to main heal?

[juno-6]

On 2007-01-25 21:16, Alisha wrote:
why would you intentionally put a wartecher into a situation where they would have to main heal?



Because they're already going to be close to the ppl fighting, have defensive stats that won't allow them to be slaughtered when debuffing and buffing, and won't be tempted to use Lv 21+ Attack techs instead of healing beacuse they don't have any http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Alisha]

yeah but considering the popularity of beast wartechers.... plus isnt that putting a lot of responsibility on the wartecher. unless you refrain from attacking wich sorta defeats the point of a beast wartecher.

[juno-6]

i agree that a beast should probably only buff/debuff maybe...seeing as that helps them anyways in terms of being a damage dealer. human and numan though would be great main healers, numan would have to bounce around more and not get banged up as much though....

im not saying a fortecher isn't a lesser choice though. if a fortecher dedicated themselves to just support they would arguably be the best but you gotta' consider the popularity of nuking w/ most fortechers.

in other words, theres a whole lot more black mages out there then white mages.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-25 21:36, Alisha wrote:
yeah but considering the popularity of beast wartechers.... plus isnt that putting a lot of responsibility on the wartecher. unless you refrain from attacking wich sorta defeats the point of a beast wartecher.



Shit, beast wartechers can already heal 800 -- they'll easily do 1000 heals by endgame with the some-odd-700-TP bonus tacked on to a grinded Majimra (estimating, don't get your panties all in a bunch). That's a third of a beast fortefighter's max HP and more than half of anyone else's (and about 100% of a silly female newman fortetecher's HP http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif).

Also, if a wartecher can't keep up with heals, it's not the fault of the wartecher. The team is simply full of idiots.

[BahnKnakyu]

On 2007-01-25 21:16, Alisha wrote:
why would you intentionally put a wartecher into a situation where they would have to main heal?



Because the wartecher is where the fT and PT is - in the middle of the mess. Therefore, because of their close proximity to the guys who will be taking the brunt of the damage, the WT will be the better healer and will be better at debuffing because stuff will be crowded around him and the fT and PT (provided the fT and PT don't go crazy with the knockback). He is *right there* to already do the healing.

The fT, despite their increased support range at lv 21, will have to jump in and be smart about when they heal so that they don't get owned in the process. The WT is more responsive to heals simply because of the nature of the class itself.

And in fact, I practice what I preach with my WT. I don't want the fTs to risk their behinds to heal when I am capable of giving out decent heals myself, especially since I don't have to *move* much to heal the party members who need it.

[Sharkyland]

On 2007-01-23 02:56, ne1first wrote:
Ideal Party is:

6x skilled people.



I second that (well... whatever that number is up to now).

---

Yay to make it more interesting... XD
2x newman fortefighters
2x cast fortetechers
1x beast fortegunners

And a patridge in a pear tree.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sharkyland on 2007-01-26 15:59 ]</font>

[Alisha]

i still feel thats putting a lot on the WT,and would probally be down right agonizing to a ps2 player. heck thats one of the reasons i stayed away from tanks and bard/rdm in ffxi.