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Omega_Weltall
Feb 26, 2007, 01:00 AM
Ok, Sounds weird but hear me out. In the Genesis Collection the interview for Takao Miyoshi talks about PSU and says some names carry over from the original PS series. The 1st name he mentions is Lutz it says in the subtitles but he pronounced it Rutsu. Now in Japanese theres no L sound (or just not used often)and replace it with R (i donno how R's and L's are alike but what ever works) so Lutz be comes Rutz and being that they put 'su' or 'o' at the end of every word just about it comes out as (Rootsu) while we say (Lootz). So in translating weather or not this is intentional, hes called Rutsu instead of Lutz but its the same thing. All thought Lutz form being this asshole in PSU kinda angers me... i mean THE WHOLE F-ING SOLAR SYSTEM IS IN DANGER! AND HE'S ALL LIKE "I dont want the maiden to be hurt! blah blah blah! "i'm trying to bang out the maiden! blah blah blah!" ugh what a jerk

Sinue_v2
Feb 26, 2007, 01:21 AM
Yeah, that seems to be a trend in PSU. They'll reference older characters and events, but completely fail to reference their meaning or significance. Rutsu is one example of just "borrowing" an old name - but creating a completely different character to carry that name. Fullyen Curtz (which is phonically similar to Forren, the Japanese name for Wren) is a completely different character than Forren. Karen and Mirei's connection is a direct reference to Nei and Neifirst - but completely fails to embody the nature of their connection. While Karen does make a sacrifice, similar to Nei, it's completely muted by the fact that she doesn't truely sacrifice in a permanent or meaninful sence since she comes back to fight along side Ethan later in the storyline. So in a sence, she hasn't truely given up her previous persona.

Not to mention the obvious disparities between Dark Falz/Force and Dulk Fakis - a reference that even PSO managed to capture accurately.

MaximusLight
Feb 26, 2007, 02:05 AM
On 2007-02-25 22:21, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Yeah, that seems to be a trend in PSU. They'll reference older characters and events, but completely fail to reference their meaning or significance. Rutsu is one example of just "borrowing" an old name - but creating a completely different character to carry that name. Fullyen Curtz (which is phonically similar to Forren, the Japanese name for Wren) is a completely different character than Forren. Karen and Mirei's connection is a direct reference to Nei and Neifirst - but completely fails to embody the nature of their connection. While Karen does make a sacrifice, similar to Nei, it's completely muted by the fact that she doesn't truely sacrifice in a permanent or meaninful sence since she comes back to fight along side Ethan later in the storyline. So in a sence, she hasn't truely given up her previous persona.

Not to mention the obvious disparities between Dark Falz/Force and Dulk Fakis - a reference that even PSO managed to capture accurately.



You know you guys are just looking at their direct actions not the underlining meaning behind their name AND personalities, Rutsu is a stuck up elite spell caster who is actually trying to do what he thinks is best (Lutz hands down), Curtz is a command of the peace and easy (if not ackward) to get along with (eventually), and Karen does make a sacrifice, SHE GIVES UP BEING HERSELF, although in the end it turns out to be a good thing for her. I mean really you can't connect there actions directly or you're just repeating the plot, after reading the storylines (hehe like that link you gave me) these seem like fairly good refences.

Sinue_v2
Feb 26, 2007, 05:53 AM
Yes, Lutz was a bit of a stuck up prod when you first meet him in PSI. However, what spurs him into action is the direct threat to Solar System layed out to him in the letter from the Governor. Otherwise, without that letter, he won't join your party for the sake of usurping a tyrant or some petty revenge quest. This isn't a pattern Rutsu follows - as he could care less about the fate of the Solar System and focuses solely on his spiritual agenda. By Phantasy Star II's time, Lutz had transformed and reorganized the Espers into a group devoted to preserving the seal and fighting the darkness. He's no longer stuck up or self-absorbed. By PSIV's time, the Lutz personalty had been changed completely after being grafted onto Thray Walsh's own personality.

As for Forren, he presented in much of the game as a racist and bigot who grudgingly "puts up" with the Guardian's actions. After his rescue, he does open up and his personality shifts. However neither attitude is reflective of Wren who is more or less a utility android who operates on logic and does not feel emotions. Although he is a bit more understanding of human emotion than Lou is, Forren shares much more in common with her personality wise than he does with Fullyen.

As for Karen's sacrifice - no, she really didn't give up who she was. Although she does take on the role of the Divine Maiden, she doesn't stay in character very well. She still has threads of her previous life she hangs onto - such as shown in the Rite of Divinationn chapter, the final chapter, and in Ep 2 Ch1. It is a sacrifice, don't get me wrong, but it isn't nearly as significant or powerful as the one Nei made. Nei, before the very outset of PSII, knew who was behind the Biomonster outbreak. She knew that eventually she would have to fight Neifirst, and she also knew that because she was just a sliver of Neifirst's fractured psyche - that stopping her sister would mean her death. Nei forced herself into Rolf's party because she wanted to protect him, and to protect what he represented in all of humanity who she had previously known nothing but hatred and torment from. Nei gave her life to save a people who hated her. This sacrifice was also crucial to Rolf's continuing fight agaist the Mother Brain to, again, save the very people who condemned him as a terrorist and villan.

Yes, I know many of these references cannot be spot on to their original source material for the sake of being original. That's fine... expect that PSU presented them in a diluted and cliche manner which (imo) insults the original source material rather than drawing from it inspiration for it's own meaningful purpose in the storyline. An example of which, as I said, being PSO's reference to Dark Falz. PSO modified the ambitions and the used the character for it's own villan - yet stayed true to the references roots. At least, insofar as Ep I is concerned. it got a bit silly with Ep II and Ep III - but IMO that's fine, because they at least got the base of the reference complete and accuate - then built from there.

Nai_Calus
Feb 26, 2007, 06:45 AM
Yeah, even the most ludicrous of Ep3 retcon BS doesn't piss me off nearly as much as PSU's trite 'aren't we cute' references.

I must admit I haven't seen very much of Rutsu. See, the Mirei/Karen thing, and the blatant obvious reference to Nei... Yeah, that pissed me off so much that I have yet to this day to even so much as start the next chapter of story mode. They took this stirring, meaningful thing and like... Peed on it for the sake of a cheap 'we haven't forgotten you, PS fans, honest' reference. Not impressed. I guess it's like how some PS fans were apparently annoyed by the throwaway references in PSIV to earlier games like the Old Man.

Slowly I've come to put that out of my mind enough to start playing PSU again with a slightly less critical eye, and I'm starting to enjoy it a bit, but I just can't get behind the story. I don't even care to finish the story to find out what happens. >_>

Also, even if Rutsu's personality was exactly like Lutz's... He doesn't have blue hair. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif Therefore, he fails. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

But yeah... The cutesy references irk the hell out of me. See, now, they can do references without annoying anyone. The PSO-looking cast parts don't bother me and are cute, same with the FOnl hat accessory and the Alis and Lutz PSG1 ending screen outfits. OK, cute, understated, good for tribute characters or trying to retain your PSO character's look.

Hell, even PSO doesn't give off the same annoyance. Probably because the references are done in such a way that it doesn't distract - The symbol on the pillars, weapon names like the Psycho Wand, tech names, the cake sisters, Dark Falz being a dark god that revives every thousand years. It works. You can make PS-PSO linking theories that are plausible, should you so desire. The mechanics of things like techniques remain much the same, not so for PSU.

Actually, the overdone references for me discourage linking theories. >_> That and how techniques apparently work completely differently from how they work in PS/PSO... Doesn't seem to lend itself well to even being in the same universe.

But yeah... I have to agree with Sinue here, PSU does kind of insult PS. :-/

Sinue_v2
Feb 26, 2007, 09:14 AM
I find that we find ourselves in agreement an awful lot. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

A2K
Feb 28, 2007, 03:33 AM
On 2007-02-26 02:53, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Yes, Lutz was a bit of a stuck up prod when you first meet him in PSI. However, what spurs him into action is the direct threat to Solar System layed out to him in the letter from the Governor. Otherwise, without that letter, he won't join your party for the sake of usurping a tyrant or some petty revenge quest. This isn't a pattern Rutsu follows - as he could care less about the fate of the Solar System and focuses solely on his spiritual agenda. By Phantasy Star II's time, Lutz had transformed and reorganized the Espers into a group devoted to preserving the seal and fighting the darkness. He's no longer stuck up or self-absorbed. By PSIV's time, the Lutz personalty had been changed completely after being grafted onto Thray Walsh's own personality.

Knowing all that, you kinda have to give Izuma Rutsu a bit of leeway, really, considering at this point he's a rather minor character (and will likely stay that way unless the COG comes front and center) and Lutz had three different games to develop--being front and center as a party character in two of them and being the one of the most important NPC in the other.

It would be total and utter fan servicing, I know, but my hope for the future is a scene where, with his back to the wall, he whips out a Psycho Wand and just starts kicking unadulterated ass to defend himself and/or the Maiden, showing us what it precisely what level of mastery it takes to ascend to the level of "Light Master."


As for Forren, he presented in much of the game as a racist and bigot who grudgingly "puts up" with the Guardian's actions. After his rescue, he does open up and his personality shifts. However neither attitude is reflective of Wren who is more or less a utility android who operates on logic and does not feel emotions. Although he is a bit more understanding of human emotion than Lou is, Forren shares much more in common with her personality wise than he does with Fullyen.

Egh, Forren was just a throwback to Shirren anyway. I didn't really have much to say about this one, but on second thought, racist bigot Fulyen probably has more in common with Siren than the other two. At least when it comes to the "angry bitter ****head" category... Also the "penchant for firing ship lasers" category too, I suppose, haha. Arguably, neither previous player character 'ren were developed all that much themselves, unfortunately. Loyal and dependable the both of them, but not much else otherwise.


As for Karen's sacrifice - no, she really didn't give up who she was. Although she does take on the role of the Divine Maiden, she doesn't stay in character very well. She still has threads of her previous life she hangs onto - such as shown in the Rite of Divinationn chapter, the final chapter, and in Ep 2 Ch1. It is a sacrifice, don't get me wrong, but it isn't nearly as significant or powerful as the one Nei made. Nei, before the very outset of PSII, knew who was behind the Biomonster outbreak. She knew that eventually she would have to fight Neifirst, and she also knew that because she was just a sliver of Neifirst's fractured psyche - that stopping her sister would mean her death. Nei forced herself into Rolf's party because she wanted to protect him, and to protect what he represented in all of humanity who she had previously known nothing but hatred and torment from. Nei gave her life to save a people who hated her. This sacrifice was also crucial to Rolf's continuing fight against the Mother Brain to, again, save the very people who condemned him as a terrorist and villain.

I'd agree it doesn't have the same impact as Nei and Neifirst, but not so much because of Karen "becoming" the Maiden but because of how Mirei's death came out. She essentially dies remaining a bit of a mystery--just as mysterious as when we first encounter her. She dies, and Karen is, of course, rightfully distressed by it all, but the audience can't really feel the full impact of it because we just don't know Mirei that well at all.

There were other issues with the general execution of it all... the moment when Dohgi attacks Mirei just felt all wrong as well.

I can't really fault Karen for still being Karen as, well, in the same scenario, I would probably do the same as well--at least when no one was looking anyway.

I believe it probably would have served the moment better had the game cut-away sometime during Chapter 6 to the time the two spent together, getting to know one another and (more importantly) developing Mirei more, as Ethan and company were off on Moatoob. All this info regarding the pair is basically just dropped on you in Chapter 7.

I guess it would be accurate to say I wasn't particularly displeased with what happened as to how it came about--its execution.

Nai_Calus
Feb 28, 2007, 03:51 AM
Oh, I was pleased with what happened, I can't stand the cute innocent useless shrine maiden stereotype. XP

Heh, probably why I like Kyra so much. No pure innocent shrine maiden BS there, and no hardened 'oh, my life has been pain' angst BS there. Nor does she bounce her boobs around. Or rail against men. XP

A2K
Feb 28, 2007, 04:12 AM
She doesn't really fit into any category, does she? Although to be totally honest, the first time through I was saying to myself, "She's nice, but can I have Raja back now?" >.>

Zorafim
Feb 28, 2007, 11:50 AM
I needed Raja from lv1. I can't stand not having a main healer in my party. Rika did the job, but I wanted someone full time.

Nai_Calus
Mar 1, 2007, 03:59 AM
Well, yeah, Kyra is perhaps not quite as useful as Raja, but I meant more that I liked her as a character, heh. Though I also like Raja, so... XD

...Yeah, I don't like the new 'New Topic/Post Reply' buttons. I miss the old ones. And I hate Pete. XP

OnnaWren
Mar 27, 2007, 11:49 AM
(Veering off-topic for a second) IMO, Pete is only cute as the dragon. The little dolls creep me out. >_<

DezoPenguin
Mar 27, 2007, 06:31 PM
On 2007-02-26 03:45, Ian-KunX wrote:

I guess it's like how some PS fans were apparently annoyed by the throwaway references in PSIV to earlier games like the Old Man.



And at least PSIV explicitly takes place in the same universe. I mean, it's set in an Algo where musk cats do live, and in which they become big and winged when they eat laerma nuts. And there really was a guy named Dr. Luveno (*cough* Lubetz *ahem*) who was important in a pivotal moment in history. And there was a Heroine named Alis Landale. And there was a guy named Tyler who was flying around in a spaceship who could have left said spaceship behind.

On the other hand, there's no internal reason at all for the PSO and PSU references to previous Phantasy Star games to exist. There's nothing about "meseta" that just rolls off the tongue as a natural thing to call a currency. There's no universal law of magic sticks that says "Psycho Wand" is a good name. There's no Dread Space Pirate Tyler passing on his name across the dimensions. They exist only as a wink-and-a-nudge to previous games, either as in-jokes for the fans or as a "branding" effect in the way of moogles, chocobos, and a guy named Cid in Final Fantasy.

With that being said, I personally feel the references should be left unobtrusive, in "hey-that's-kinda-cool" fashion. Kind of like an Easter egg thing for those who recognize it but not in the way of people who don't ("Alex Ossale," anyone?). So, although I haven't played PSU, from reading everyone's descriptions of it in this thread, I'm finding it kind of annoying that it has all these intrusive references that get in the way of the new game's story. I mean, if you're watching Rutsu and Tylor and Fullyen and Karen and Mirei and you can't stop thinking about Lutz, Tyler, Wren, Nei, and Neifirst then the new characters and their story aren't getting a fair shake to stand (and be judged) on their own. A "Nei-like" sacrifice, after all, means something different in a game with "Phantasy Star" in the title than it does in a random game...