Are things starting to get non-hunter friendly?

[Zorafim]

I've been noticing things getting more difficult as a fortefighter. More enemies are resistant to melee, those that aren't can be dangerous up close, and those that are neither are difficult to hit. Enemies that knock down are running rampant, causing us to waste PP.

Bosses that aren't dragons seem to require the use of a ranged weapon. Onma and kin spend most of their time in mid air, robotic bosses move around quickly, and Fulkis seems to 1HKO anyone within meleeing distance.

Is this just my cold making me more sensitive, or have things gotten more difficult since our lv20 dragon runs?

[DurakkenX]

No you are prolly right...they are most likely following the same trend PSO did

difficulty early in PSO
Hunter had it easy
Rangers had medium difficulty
Forces had it extremely hard

Mid way through all of them evened out

Late game
hunters had it extremely hard
rangers were still in the middle
Forces had it the easiest

[Zorafim]

Didn't forces suck in ultimate mode, though? Also, weren't rangers completely overpowered at the end?

[Sychosis]

You're joking right? Late game, NOBODY had it difficult.

[DurakkenX]

comparitively and if you consider the game without the hacks...

[PJ]

XD Rangers were useless in PSO

Forces only role was to support, cause damage techs did shit all in Ultimate. Melee Force ftw.

[Soukosa]

Gotta wonder what you played and played with. Rangers were greatly over powered in PSO and Forces could do plenty of damage in Ult if you did things right. Many people can attest to that.

On topic though, I guess I'm not the only one that's noticed how anti-hunter the game can be? Especially bosses... Guess maybe it's a tradeoff for being such an expert in close ranged combat and thus having strong raw power with attacks and high tanking abilities.

[McLaughlin]

Sega's way of rebalancing is awkward. Instead of buffing/nerfing us or, GOD FORBID the other classes a bit *Glowers at Bows* they just make everything more difficult for the class they've decided to pick on. Hunter types in this instance.

I too find it difficult, even as a Fighgunner. Most of the melee resistant enemies are resistant to Firearms as well, rendering Forces the only efficient way to kill them (and there are a shocking number of these enemies). Anything that isn't melee resistant is given a Technic like Dambarta or Megid (in a Jarba's case it's melee resistant AND has BOTH of those Technics) so they can kick your ass if you're brave enough to get in close.

It seems more and more like Hunters are simply there to be beaten to death while Rangers and Forces mop the floor with SE4s and Technics.

Evidently, I'm not even allowed to keep myself from dying, because Tornado Dance/Mayalee Fury/Whatever else prolongs my life pisses off every random party I'm in. I just stand there with my Jogiri and watch my health bar drop.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Obsidian_Knight on 2007-03-13 22:22 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Obsidian_Knight on 2007-03-13 22:44 ]</font>

[Sio]

Forces in PSO had it easier when they had the proper equiptment, spell level and a player who knew how tp abuse each forces specials. Had a fonewearl (154) a formarl (143)and my main was a fonewmn (178). We do well in all situations in PSO but its a factor of speed, as sure we can handle heavy areas solo with ease, it just takes time.

The difference between a Ranger and a Hunter was how easy it was to finish a room, we can wipe out large packs and only need to move abit most of the time and have no worries. But take into account equiptment, fonewearls exceled in basic techs so use equiptment that boosts it further and so forth same with fonewmn w/e. They become very dangerous "forces" (pun intended XD)in the right hands.

On topic yes I agree melee get it rough, as I have two melee characters on PSU ones 65 the other 42 and yet have a difficult time to truely solo quickly. My main (fortecher 71 of course) Can handle every situation with ease and speed. (and no I dont even have a damu spell on my main, as damu spells have a horribly ugly animation on males IMO hehe http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif:)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sio on 2007-03-13 22:29 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sio on 2007-03-13 22:30 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

I was doing an A rank hive run and was running into a room with 3 of those flying things...I got hit with 2 megids and that flying attack all at once and died from 100% health with like a 1 in 5 chance at surviving lol

when the only thing that makes a game hard is an unblockable 1 hit kill spell that is hard to impossible to dodge when close range fighting it's just illusionary difficulty.

[Siertes]

I think hunters should get a decent boost in STA. As amusing as it is to watch Megid after megid hit them in Lab S2, I do feel sorry for them since they have to get up so close to everything.

[DurakkenX]

try fighting in S-rank LL... if anything isn't in the air it will be poisoning, freezing, or megiding you.

[-Ryuki-]

Ah, but what about those that are more resistant to Techs? See? ;3

[McLaughlin]

On 2007-03-13 22:39, RyukiZero wrote:
Ah, but what about those that are more resistant to Techs? See? ;3



Name 3 Monsters.

Melee resistant monsters:

Jarba (also range resistant)
ALL Robots
Dilnazen/Jusgogen (spelling again) (Can't remember which one it is. The other is range resistant)
And for a bonus point, Tengohgs. (Yeah, I spelled that wrong.)

EDIT: Durakken brings up a good point. Bees are a bitch to get behind, and stay behind.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Obsidian_Knight on 2007-03-13 22:56 ]</font>

[Octavian]

Rangers with their snow queen/frozen shooter/ spread needles were useless? -_-

[DurakkenX]

how bout BUGGES's fronts

[McLaughlin]

Rangers were broken in PSO. Anyone who says otherwise has never played the game. That, however, is beyond the scope of this topic.

To add to my list,

Svaltus.

[Umberger]

I don't think it's becoming non-hunter friendly, but they are greatly encouraging you to party. As you begin leveling up to the higher levels, you need a party...soloing just doesn't cut it any more.

All of those things that you Hunters can't hurt can hurt the Forces for large amounts of damage...so Hunters can provide a distraction while the Forces do the damage and a Ranger is applying an SE or (not that this ever happens) laying a trap. Forces are given support spells for a reason, and any Force who complains about having to Resta or buff constantly needs to rethink their decision to become a Force.

Point is, every area has its enemies that are anti-classX/classY/classZ...you just have to get a diverse party.

[DurakkenX]

at least come up with a better excuse >.>

THese creature make it near impossible for hunters to be in the game since everything is a one hit kill or just knocks them away or keeps them from attacking...hunter are for attacking...not hitting once and then being hit away. that makes everything a hunter uses worthless.

[McLaughlin]

I drop traps ALL THE TIME in Lab SS, mainly because the reward funds them. Burn Trap Gs for the win!

You wouldn't believe how many Forces berate me for being hit, and forcing them to stop their onslaught to heal me (which isn't even required most times, as I'm usually at my Dimates before a Force even knows iI'm in the red).

[-Ryuki-]

Okay, Obsidian got me. There's more resistant-to-melee mobs than there are
resistant-to-techs. Which, really sucks now that I think about it.

[McLaughlin]

Come to think of it, the only enemy I can think of that's magic resistant would be a Goazoran, which is also resistant to physical attacks... >_>

*Runs off to PSUpedia*

[-Ryuki-]

You can never be too sure about your info >.>

[DurakkenX]

what makes it bad is that the hackers of PSO erased the need for healing forces and so they have all forgot how to be effective forces...unfortunately we have to live with the consequences on PSU.

[Alisha]

On 2007-03-13 23:27, DurakkenX wrote:
what makes it bad is that the hackers of PSO erased the need for healing forces and so they have all forgot how to be effective forces...unfortunately we have to live with the consequences on PSU.



i guess thats why resta and the other support techs are totally gimp in psu when compared to pso right? i get the feeling someone at ST was a fonewearl lover and such saw fit to gimp hunters rangers and melee forces out spite because of how crappy fonewearls were in pso. FT = the most unbalanced type in psu.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-03-14 01:50 ]</font>

[Tsavo]

On 2007-03-14 01:49, Alisha wrote:
[quote] FT = the most unbalanced type in psu.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-03-14 01:50 ]</font>

I was thinking about this earlier today. I mean not only do FO's get access to lvl 4 status through techs, they also get lvl 30 bullets, S rank cards, bows and exclusive access to rods. WTF? And yet Guntechs, who would benefit most from bows/cards get A ranks and all powerful lvl 10 techs. Its ridiculous really.

[Kura-X]

you know. Hunter's arent just for dealing damage like you all think. There's a special status effect that REALLY helps the party that the hunter specializes in.


It's called knockdown/back.


Tip over enemies so NOBODY gets hit by megid. Enemies that dont fall over still get stunned by launch or knockback attacks, so two coordinated hunters can prevent a jarba from ever macking an action.

[Tsavo]

On 2007-03-14 02:07, Kura-X wrote:
you know. Hunter's arent just for dealing damage like you all think. There's a special status effect that REALLY helps the party that the hunter specializes in.


It's called knockdown/back.


Tip over enemies so NOBODY gets hit by megid. Enemies that dont fall over still get stunned by launch or knockback attacks, so two coordinated hunters can prevent a jarba from ever macking an action.


Which is incredibly easy to do when the Jarba stops you with dambarta and has his buddies serve you a megid buffet. The fact is that with the Grenade Lauancher and the use of new PAs like Mayalee Prisim and Fury ranger classes now have access to decent knockdown/knockback as well while still being able to contribute in greater ways through traps and status effects. Yeah I can keep a Jarba stunlocked for years with my fF but whats the point when a fG can do the same and kill the thing in a fraction of the time?

[Oxidation]

I remember back when i started before all the haxeta when hunters owned everything and my little force had only ra spells and normal foie, diga, crappy zonde i never used, and barta. Along with that and crappy armor where i got hit a couple times and get killed. My measly hp like 600 or something at FT1 when the classes changed and massive drop in def.

I was basically a healbot and got my ra spell in here and there. Now the tables have turned and im pushing over 2500dmg crits on grinna beta's in goliath S, soloing S2 linear line in 16min and lemme tell ya, a party with 4+ FT is really awesome

[Garanz-Baranz]

Melee Resistant enemies-

Tengohg
Jusnagun
Cariguine
Kamatoze
Gaozoran
Polavohra
Kog Nadd
Dura Gohra[the Alligator thing at the desert]
Dilla Griena
SEED-Vance
Bysha mech Koh[the red one]
Bysha mech Ostu[the blue one]
Gohma Methna
Gohma Dilla
Endrum Bomalta
Endrum Seeker
Endrum Tirentos
Grinna Bete C
Jarba
Bil De Vear
Shagreece
Zoona
Svaltus
Kajibidari[sp?]

Firearm Resistant enemies-

Dilnazen
Kamatoze
Cariguine
Gaozoran
Polavohra
Kogg Nadd
Dura Gohra
Dilla Griena
SEED-Vance
Bysha mech Koh
Bysha mech Ostu
Gohma Methna
Gohma Dilla
Endrum Bomalta
Endrum Seeker
Endrum Tirentos
Grinna Bete C
Jarba
Bil De Vear
Svaltus
Kajibidari[sp?]

Tech Resistant Enemies-

Kog Nadd
Polavohra
Gaozoran
...

I don't know all the tech resistant monsters, as I do not use a Force, because of PS2 load lag.

[Callous]

Great topic and I agree with all that's been said. This is one major reason why I stopped playing. My main is a FF/Fighgunner, partly because I wanted it that way, but later out of necessity since I'm on PS2 and the pallette switching and general slowdown makes it unbearable to be a Force on that platform. I simply got fed up fighting enemies that were either resistant or killed/froze/poisoned me when I got close up. In the end I found myself changing to Fg and using twin guns most of the time, which wasn't all that fun. I could go Ranger, of course, as they don't have to switch so much between weapons, but meleeing is what I find fun (just not in higher levels in PSU).

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 04:24, Garanz-Baranz wrote:
Melee Resistant enemies-

Tengohg
Jusnagun
Cariguine
Kamatoze
Gaozoran
Polavohra
Kog Nadd
Dura Gohra[the Alligator thing at the desert]
Dilla Griena
SEED-Vance
Bysha mech Koh[the red one]
Bysha mech Ostu[the blue one]
Gohma Methna
Gohma Dilla
Endrum Bomalta
Endrum Seeker
Endrum Tirentos
Grinna Bete C
Jarba
Bil De Vear
Shagreece
Zoona
Svaltus
Kajibidari[sp?]

Firearm Resistant enemies-

Dilnazen
Kamatoze
Cariguine
Gaozoran
Polavohra
Kogg Nadd
Dura Gohra
Dilla Griena
SEED-Vance
Bysha mech Koh
Bysha mech Ostu
Gohma Methna
Gohma Dilla
Endrum Bomalta
Endrum Seeker
Endrum Tirentos
Grinna Bete C
Jarba
Bil De Vear
Svaltus
Kajibidari[sp?]

Tech Resistant Enemies-

Kog Nadd
Polavohra
Gaozoran
...

I don't know all the tech resistant monsters, as I do not use a Force, because of PS2 load lag.



You might want to double check that list.

[ne1first]

On 2007-03-14 04:24, Garanz-Baranz wrote:
Melee Resistant enemies-

Tengohg
Jusnagun
Gaozoran
Polavohra
Dilla Griena
1-target robots
Jarba
Shagreece
Zoona
Kajibidari[sp?]



I edited your list.
The following were taken out:


Cariguine - Takes full damage and 3 targets. Spear owns it

Kamatoze - same family as carriguine, same deal

Kog Nadd - takes full damage and 3 targets. Again HU owns it


Dura Gohra[the Alligator thing at the desert] - takes full damage and 3 targets.

Dilla Griena - whats this?

SEED-Vance - Takes full damage and multitarget...

Grinna Bete C - A special case, they do take half damage from melee but 3 targets and low HP = get owned by Daggas or assault crush.

Svaltus - Same as Grinna bet, half damage but low HP and 3 targets, very easy for HU

Bil De Vear - they take full damage although only 1 target. HU is the best class to 1v1 a King Bil De, a very easy thing to do with Stage1+2 of Daggas, with a trimate at hand, without endangering anyone around you


Kajibidari[sp?]- whats this?

[omegapirate2k]

On 2007-03-13 23:22, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
I drop traps ALL THE TIME in Lab SS, mainly because the reward funds them. Burn Trap Gs for the win!


GO US!

But yeah, when I find a melee resistant enemy, I either go into nanoblast or just shoot at them with my guns, such is the beauty of being a beast fighgunner.

[Mewnie]

On 2007-03-14 04:55, ne1first wrote:

Cariguine - Takes full damage and 3 targets. Spear owns it

Frustrating trying to get those damn things to stop charging all over. Pain in the ass to corner. I haven't been able to knock them over either X3 and one hit kill blast x3


Kamatoze - same family as carriguine, same deal

Not bad, if they don't spam Dambarta. Or knock you down grr >:3


Kog Nadd - takes full damage and 3 targets. Again HU owns it

Annoying.. the dot effect when you're next to them can disrupt PAs I've noticed. Oh, and knockdown. Better to burn/virus and range them.


Dura Gohra[the Alligator thing at the desert] - takes full damage and 3 targets.

These guys aren't that bad. Nothing special about them other than that knockback/down.


SEED-Vance - Takes full damage and multitarget...

The little ones are easy to knockdown and rape. The big brothers seem harder to knockdown (I haven't succeeded yet) and AoE knockdown/back like crazy.


Grinna Bete C - A special case, they do take half damage from melee but 3 targets and low HP = get owned by Daggas or assault crush.

They hop around a lot and seem to switch targets. (might be the melee resist making it harder for HUs to distract them from the Techers) Not too bad.


Svaltus - Same as Grinna bet, half damage but low HP and 3 targets, very easy for HU

Aoe Knockback. They like to use it often. You'll be lucky to get in the first part of your PA before you're sent flying. X3


Bil De Vear - they take full damage although only 1 target. HU is the best class to 1v1 a King Bil De, a very easy thing to do with Stage1+2 of Daggas, with a trimate at hand, without endangering anyone around you

Ah, Bils.. not all that hard. They're pretty straight forward.. just have to watch out for the lariat.

All the multi-target mobs have some form of knockdown, or some other annoying/outright fatal maneuver that makes meleeing them risky. Some are easier than others though /shrug

ST dropped the ball with this, really. Too much emphasis on cheeseball one hit kills. Just plain lazy design. But that's not just a Hunter issue.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mewnie on 2007-03-14 05:30 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

Can't believe I missed this


On 2007-03-13 22:49, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
Name 3 Monsters.


Off the top of my head...

Armed Servant (Ozuna)
Armed Servant (Taguba)
Jarba
Kog Nadd
Tengohg
Gohmon
Gaozoran

[Midicronica]

The only reason why half of those monsters are firearm resistant is because they have more than 1 hit box. Which pretty much divides the damge you deal in half or more depending how many spots it can be hit.

And the list about melee-resistant monsters.. Just no. Most of those monsters a HU will absolutely wreck with the correct weapon/element. The robots, I also agree, these monsters usually require the power of a force to takedown quickly or the help of ranger with a Killer Shot 11+.

[DurakkenX]

Let's go to Hive S and see which enemies Hunter can effectively hit without risk of sever risk

>.> <.< ^.^ v.v >.> I think 1...i've never seen those things that run around have anything that stops you from doing something against it save for the fact most of them appear in groups with other things and because the way they move distract you and make it impossible to effectively pay attention to anything on the field...and that's not good with things throwing megid all around

[Tiyr]

Melee classes do the best straight damage, have the best ability to hit multiple hitboxes, and are the most durable overall. Oh, and their skills level the fastest, and they need less of them. Oh wait! And they have the best crowd control with all their kniockups / knockbacks.

Are you guys seriously whining because there are a number of things that you can't WTFPWN instantly? As others have noted, there're TONS of creatures that ranged / techs don't do full damage to, and anything with multiple hitboxes HEAVILY favors melee damage, even if it takes full damage from everything.

If you're a fF, that's the price you pay for specializing--yeah, you're the best melee but sometimes you're not going to be as useful. Go do Shadow Conspiracy with a hunter class, then go back and do it with a techer and tell me hunters have things tough. If you're a FG, grab some traps or pull out your dualies. No, that won't work on robots, but in the save vein techers / guntechers don't have much recourse against things like Kogg Nadds.

And for whoever said something about HIVE: SEED-Vitace, BelPannon, Deljaban (as long as you're not a moron), Dilnazen, Carriguine, Sendillian. You do full to everything except Gaozorans and Jusnaguns, and both you're still very useful as crowd control, via either traps or knockdowns. Or, if you're a FG, you've got guns. Use them. And, for the record, when you're fighting all those shielded Gaozorans in SEED Awakened, no one does full damage to them.

God, I swear, people will whine about anything.

EDIT: I'm saying this is a FighGunner, just so we're clear, and I duo LL S2 missions without dying almost daily (Crea won't drop for me)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tiyr on 2007-03-14 06:35 ]</font>

[Mio]

Try soloing valley of carnage with a ForteGunner, dear hunters

[Miyoko]

Let's goto Hive S and see which class DOESN'T get raped by the enemies there... They all do. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Hunters worry about megid to one shot kill them, sure...
Rangers worry about pulling too much aggro and just getting gang-raped...
Forces don't have to worry so much about megid one-shotting them, but when their HP is nearly or more than half that of a hunters, they have to worry about EVERYTHING ELSE taking them out. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I frequent with a Fortechter, fortefighter, and a fightunner. Nobody get's own more than anyone else -- The hunters get hit more, yeah, but the force only has to get hit once-or-twice to be in a critical situation. From what I've seen so far, it's really evened out between the two.

[Zarbolord]

All I can say is... hunter isn't my cup of tea... FORCES RULE NYAAAAAAAAAA

[Alisha]

still doesnt change the fact that fortetechers are broken because the game is overly simplified. in my opinion they should of broken techniques into 2 categories. offensive and support. this would allow them to give wartechers lvl 30 support techs without making FT obsolete. FT is WAY to versatale for a forte. right now fortetecher is like a white mage and a black mage in one class.

[Mio]

On 2007-03-14 07:07, Alisha wrote:
FT is WAY to versatale for a forte. right now fortetecher is like a white mage and a black mage in one class.



And a ranger as well

[Alisha]

dont even get me started on that they need to give s-rank bows to someone that can actually use them....guntecher.....

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 07:16, Alisha wrote:
dont even get me started on that they need to give s-rank bows to someone that can actually use them....guntecher.....



Can you even imagine that kind of damage output?

[Mio]

Not that great damage output as you may think, really.

I left guntecher when i realized i was just a ForteTecher shadow

[Burton]

fortefighters have shit easy... just stop being a noob

[Neith]

On 2007-03-14 07:25, Burton wrote:
fortefighters have shit easy... just stop being a noob



Play one first, you clearly have no idea.

There are a hell of a lot of melee resistant mobs, it's not even funny. By having such a small amount of Tech-resistant mobs, the game is promoting Tech spam, which pulls away from the 'support' side of being a FO.

Tengohgs are annoying too, they only have 1-2 hitboxes, but spread apart so they're impossible to hit on both.

[Burton]

lol what u mean play one? i am one. not only that i almost have every class maxed. fortefighters own the most.

[omegapirate2k]

On 2007-03-14 07:35, Burton wrote:
lol what u mean play one? i am one. not only that i almost have every class maxed. fortefighters own the most.



Well, you ARE a beast, and beasts make the most effective fortefighters because of their high STR, HP and DFP.

If you were, say, a newman, you'd probably say differently.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-14 07:33, UrikoBB3 wrote:

Play one first, you clearly have no idea.

There are a hell of a lot of melee resistant mobs, it's not even funny. By having such a small amount of Tech-resistant mobs, the game is promoting Tech spam, which pulls away from the 'support' side of being a FO.

Tengohgs are annoying too, they only have 1-2 hitboxes, but spread apart so they're impossible to hit on both.



Fortefighters can't be good at everything. Best defense, best HP, best damage output on most creatures...I mean, seriously, what else do you want? Ok, so you need a ranger class to kill Tengohgs efficiently, and a techer to kill robots efficiently...but they need YOU to kill Nadds / anything-with-multiple-hitboxes efficiently.

It's pretty well spread out, and if you're playing a fF, you chose to specialize. You SHOULD have some limitations.

That said, as to why fTs need level 30 bullets and S-rank bows and cards on top of being the only class to get level 30 techs...frankly, they should do something about the GT / fT issues, but that's a whole different problem.

Melee is fine, we're just not perfect at everything. Deal with it.

[-Kenji-]

Things are non-ranger friendly, if you ask me.

Sure, sure...pretty much we do most the damage when boss time comes around.

>.O BUT MOBS HAVE NO LOVE FOR THE RANGER! Without meat shields we are doomed.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 07:25, Mio wrote:
Not that great damage output as you may think, really.

I left guntecher when i realized i was just a ForteTecher shadow



Eh? My card damage is outclassed by a CAST GT 10 levels lower than me.

[DurakkenX]

Bel Pannon = Poison (CLOSE RANGE ONLY) and Barta
Deljaban = Megid that you can't even tell is coming as it looks like a regular attack
Dilnazen = Do you have any idea how hard it is to stun these things? The only thing that does are PAs that leave you vulnerable for long periods of time and you can only stun them in specific areas
Carriguine = megid, running, and knock back...
Jusnagun = melee resistant, throws megid, flies, and has charge knock back.
Gaozorans = melee resistant and there freeze you if you are close and then just shoot to death or use megid.

If you get close to these you are frozen, poisoned, or knocked back before you get off a full PA...Also with moving close you block your view of other mobs and even the mob you are fighting throwing megid at you.

Quite frankly having a "tank" in a game with almost everything having a 1 hit kill or doesn't allow you to use many of your PAs just isn't right.

Oh did I mention melee weapons don't have much stun effect on them? Or the facts the Forces often don't do the support part of their job? or perhaps the fact that Forces/Rangers have a far easier time dodging because they don't have to stand close?

How bout have you played the latest ep2 mission? Or the temple on neudaiz?

You simply can not get through some missions without a force or a ranger, but you can't say that about a hunter now can you? That simple fact alone is enough to say that the game is against hunters...

[Skuda]

So I suppose the role St wanted hunters to play is bodyguard.

**and IiiiiiiiiIIiiiiii will alwayyyyssss LOOOOVVVEEE YOUUUUUUU!!**

*cough*

I personally, am fine with being the bodyguard. But most of the time, I prefer to take an active role as the juggler. Running around, Flipping mobs in the air is one of my specialties.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skuda on 2007-03-14 07:59 ]</font>

[Mio]

On 2007-03-14 07:54, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 07:25, Mio wrote:
Not that great damage output as you may think, really.

I left guntecher when i realized i was just a ForteTecher shadow



Eh? My card damage is outclassed by a CAST GT 10 levels lower than me.



Ask yourself what you're trading for a few more damages, and remember, you will be able to equip S, while they dont

So you have 30 bullets 30 tech, 200% TP
they have 30 bullets 10 tech, 48% TP
they have 0,1% more ATP than you
the true difference is in ATA, yet, cards dont need great ATA to hit, same with Bows.

So a guntecher can try to play ranger dealing less damage than any other class in the game, having lvl 10 useless techs, while you, a mage, can equip S rank ranged weapons and level bullets to 30, other than dealing 1500+ damages with Radiga spells, yeah that CAST GT is truly better than you.

And btw I play Cast fG now

[JAFO22000]

Yes, techers have the least of all S rank weapons (aside from PT, of course!). Rod, Wand, Card, Bow. Thats it. They had to give us something!

Again, this is a lot of whining because your Hunter class isn't the best against everything. I frequent with a Fortegunner, Fighgunner and Fortefighter. Each of us know our roles and play accordingly. There are things that the Fighgunner and FF are "best" against, and the same for the gunner and the techer. To the person who brought up the multiple hit box argument, there you have it. Besides the grenade launcher, only hunter type weapons can hit more than one area on a creature. Who owns Adahna? Hunters. Get your rangers to drop Onma and who can hit THREE points on him per hit? Hunters. Who do we forces and rangers rely on to take hits for us (this is NOT a joke. "Tanking" enemies is a very important role)? Hunters.

I think the fact that the Hunter style doesn't work the best against everything in the game, i.e. "I don't do the most damage at all times" has hurt some peoples egos. Learn how to play your class. Attack when you can do the most damage. Tank when you can. As far as Jarbas go, how about hitting them a few times, then backing out of Dambarta range when you hear it? I mean, they don't (shouldn't) surprise anyone when they cast as they do inhale pretty strongly before casting a spell. You should be able to avoid most of their techs. Also, if you aren't the "strongest" against an enemy, help out in other ways. Knock back the worms and the gunners and forces can nail them before they go back underground. Topple Gaozorans and they cannot cast any spells.

It's not all about damage. Do other things to help out and play...*gasp* a support role once in awhile. You will notice that your party will get through missions much faster.

Thanks!

Your Pal
JAFO

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-14 07:54, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 07:25, Mio wrote:
Not that great damage output as you may think, really.

I left guntecher when i realized i was just a ForteTecher shadow



Eh? My card damage is outclassed by a CAST GT 10 levels lower than me.



That has much more to do with race than with class. You're a newman, and your ATP is the most horrid in the game. If you were a CAST fT (gasp!) your card / bow damage would be much closer to a GTs. And if it were a Newman GT--with their anemic ATP--probably very close.

A fT who chooses to heavily specialize in range isn't really much worse at it than a GT (excepting weapon access) and still have a strong array of level 30 techs. GTs give up a lot and don't get much of a return on it.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 08:00, Tiyr wrote:

On 2007-03-14 07:54, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 07:25, Mio wrote:
Not that great damage output as you may think, really.

I left guntecher when i realized i was just a ForteTecher shadow



Eh? My card damage is outclassed by a CAST GT 10 levels lower than me.



That has much more to do with race than with class. You're a newman, and your ATP is the most horrid in the game. If you were a CAST fT (gasp!) your card / bow damage would be much closer to a GTs. And if it were a Newman GT--with their anemic ATP--probably very close.

A fT who chooses to heavily specialize in range isn't really much worse at it than a GT (excepting weapon access) and still have a strong array of level 30 techs. GTs give up a lot and don't get much of a return on it.



You also have to remember I get bonus stats for being a fT and they don't as a GT, CASTs make fantastic GTs, the staggering 100% ATA difference. Her DPS is going to steadily climb way above mine.

[-Rune-]

Goodness, is damage output the only thing people look at. I just recently changed from fighgunner to Guntecher. I still do great damage on all enemies I face, maybe not max damage like the fighgunner, but as for group killing fighgunner ftl the way I play. I'm a cast GT and I love it so, even though the magic setup I have is selfish because I only do buffs and debuffs, and I backup heal and remove status effects.

If I were always trying to play solo then yes I'd find max damage important, but since this is an online game where there are other people involved. I'd rather just be an assist to the team than Genghis Kahn *however you spell it*

[DurakkenX]

#1 almost everything but bosses that have multiple hit boxes have knock back or Gibarta which pretty much allows you to get 1 hit of a PA or a regular hit before being frozen or kick across the screen

#2 Assisting by tanking in this game is death which isn't tanking at all.

#3 Assisting via knock up or knock back really isn't assisting you since it knocks them up or back and makes your techs miss

#3 Saying you are useful in boss fights is really lame v.v That is pretty much what you are saying...and thats not really anything special considering all classes have multi-hit on something like a boss v.v

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-14 07:57, DurakkenX wrote:
Bel Pannon = Poison (CLOSE RANGE ONLY) and Barta
Deljaban = Megid that you can't even tell is coming as it looks like a regular attack
Dilnazen = Do you have any idea how hard it is to stun these things? The only thing that does are PAs that leave you vulnerable for long periods of time and you can only stun them in specific areas
Carriguine = megid, running, and knock back...
Jusnagun = melee resistant, throws megid, flies, and has charge knock back.
Gaozorans = melee resistant and there freeze you if you are close and then just shoot to death or use megid.

If you get close to these you are frozen, poisoned, or knocked back before you get off a full PA...Also with moving close you block your view of other mobs and even the mob you are fighting throwing megid at you.

Quite frankly having a "tank" in a game with almost everything having a 1 hit kill or doesn't allow you to use many of your PAs just isn't right.

Oh did I mention melee weapons don't have much stun effect on them? Or the facts the Forces often don't do the support part of their job? or perhaps the fact that Forces/Rangers have a far easier time dodging because they don't have to stand close?

How bout have you played the latest ep2 mission? Or the temple on neudaiz?

You simply can not get through some missions without a force or a ranger, but you can't say that about a hunter now can you? That simple fact alone is enough to say that the game is against hunters...



I play a hunter, and I don't want to be an ass but are you really complaining about PANNONS? Are you serious? If you can AE them into the floor with Tornado Break / Dus Robado / any-other-AE-PA I don't know what to say.

As for Deljabans, get behind them, or knock them over, or both. It's not hard. Once they're on the ground you have the tools to keep them there.

Carriguine can do what you described to everyone--but hunters can do them most damage to them due to multiple hitboxes.

Dilnazen--Stunning them's not hard with the right PAs. Also, ranged does half damage to them, so ranger classes get kind of hosed. Plus, they have that ranged attack--they're a pain for everyone, but less so for hunters since we have the HP, def, damage and stuns to take them down.

Jusnaguns--sure, we can't do much damage to them--well, fF can't--so knock them over so everyone else can. Keep them on the ground. You won't put up huge numbers but everyone else's job will be easier.

Gaozorans--See Jusnagun. Or, stand back and use pistols on the ONE CREATURE IN THE HIVE that you're not good against.

Seriously, I swap between fF and FG on Tiyr, and I do HIVE and LL more than anything else. None of this is that much worse than the crap everyone else has to deal with.

Oh, and you can always do without rangers. Forces are another matter, but that's only because of resta, not the damage they deal.

[-Rune-]

On 2007-03-14 08:09, DurakkenX wrote:
#1 almost everything but bosses that have multiple hit boxes have knock back or Gibarta which pretty much allows you to get 1 hit of a PA or a regular hit before being frozen or kick across the screen

#2 Assisting by tanking in this game is death which isn't tanking at all.


Wow you people really need to stop charging into a fight head first, and think some. Less damage taken is god sent. Every enemy has an opening where you can get your full PA out, even 2 in some cases.

On that same token, a lot of people have to stop trying to use their WHOLE PA combo in EVERY situation. There are a lot of enemies where you do need to spam the whole combo. Get in two hits back up rince repeat. It works better than it sounds <.<;

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 08:08, -Rune- wrote:
Goodness, is damage output the only thing people look at. I just recently changed from fighgunner to Guntecher. I still do great damage on all enemies I face, maybe not max damage like the fighgunner, but as for group killing fighgunner ftl the way I play. I'm a cast GT and I love it so, even though the magic setup I have is selfish because I only do buffs and debuffs, and I backup heal and remove status effects.

If I were always trying to play solo then yes I'd find max damage important, but since this is an online game where there are other people involved. I'd rather just be an assist to the team than Genghis Kahn *however you spell it*



when you are going to use mates constantly to heal every hit you give because you'll be getting hit at almost that frequency if not more. Or using scape due to dieing because there is no way to avoid a in your face megid with no warning on an enemy you have no way of stopping because you tried to attack. Or wasting PP trying to hit something when they are either blocking or casting a spell and you ultimately just waste your PP. You end up wasting tons and tons of meseta...oh did I forget to mention that because of this you have to buy/make 50% ele weapons to max out your weapons and carry 1 for each type of mob? And since you are wasting PP and not killing more than likely you need to spend more on PP

Over all you are wasting far more time and mst to achieve less results. In fact to do anything other than pop up an enemy in an emergency situation hunters are pretty worthless >.>

[Tiyr]

The nice thing about this game is that you can switch classes very easily and keep your level...the worst penalty is re-levelling techs and PAs.

Seriously, Durakken, it's not broken. Either you don't like it, aren't good at it, or both. I'm not trying to be inflammatory but if you're having that many problems as a hunter you might want to try a different class. The problem is most certainly not hunters being too weak.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 08:13, -Rune- wrote:

On 2007-03-14 08:09, DurakkenX wrote:
#1 almost everything but bosses that have multiple hit boxes have knock back or Gibarta which pretty much allows you to get 1 hit of a PA or a regular hit before being frozen or kick across the screen

#2 Assisting by tanking in this game is death which isn't tanking at all.


Wow you people really need to stop charging into a fight head first, and think some. Less damage taken is god sent. Every enemy has an opening where you can get your full PA out, even 2 in some cases.

On that same token, a lot of people have to stop trying to use their WHOLE PA combo in EVERY situation. There are a lot of enemies where you do need to spam the whole combo. Get in two hits back up rince repeat. It works better than it sounds <.<;



it has nothing to do with charging in...i could sit around all day waiting for an opening on say a gaozoran to get an attack in on it. The fact is nothing I do other than shooting it will result in me not getting hit in the exchange unless I'm lucky or have ver high ATP.

[-Rune-]

How you just responded is exactly what i just said.. You're rushing in without seeing the whole picture. If you don't know by now that when a deljaban takes a short jump back he about to cast megid, or when carriguine pauses for like 3 seconds and raises his arm 3 megids balls are gonna come out... or even Vitace pauses for more than normal, and you CAN'T get out the way you may wanna look into a new class then. That or you need to lower the rank yer playing on until you get some better armor to take these attacks that make you roll all over the place for my enjoyment... <.<

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 08:22, Tiyr wrote:
The nice thing about this game is that you can switch classes very easily and keep your level...the worst penalty is re-levelling techs and PAs.

Seriously, Durakken, it's not broken. Either you don't like it, aren't good at it, or both. I'm not trying to be inflammatory but if you're having that many problems as a hunter you might want to try a different class. The problem is most certainly not hunters being too weak.



No see I like what hunters are. I don't like the fact that they made everything very bad for the hunter to fight against.

And quite frankly that is the dumbest argument ever... and has always been. I shouldn't have to go play something else because the game is broke.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 08:25, -Rune- wrote:
How you just responded is exactly what i just said.. You're rushing in without seeing the whole picture. If you don't know by now that when a deljaban takes a short jump back he about to cast megid, or when carriguine pauses for like 3 seconds and raises his arm 3 megids balls are gonna come out... or even Vitace pauses for more than normal, and you CAN'T get out the way you may wanna look into a new class then. That or you need to lower the rank yer playing on until you get some better armor to take these attacks that make you roll all over the place for my enjoyment... <.<



rune please read what i actually put... not what you assume i am thinking.

Like I said unless you are just going to be a ranger against gaozorans there is practically nothing you can do against them to keep them from hitting you.

It doesn't matter that delsibans have a little jump back because when you are fighting them you are fighting a "Them" and you can't avoid it or can't see it.

I think i just proved my point just by you pointing that Delsiban fact out...from a hunter point of view since we are always moving we can't see that and if we do it's always far too late for us to act as wer'e fighting something else and in them iddle of an attack.

[-Rune-]

The game's not broken... you're broken... I'm not known to argue in this site but you are just making simple things into a non existent problem. If you don't want to change your class then just accept the fact that you have a weakness just like every OTHER class in the game and you have to pick your strengths and maximize them :/ Do you even know what strafe is? ._.

[Tiyr]

Read my comments on the HIVE creatures above.

My comment is not that they're weak so go do something else--my argument is that you don't like playing one so maybe you should try something else. You like them conceptually, yes, but you don't like playing one in practice.

I say that because I play a human FG / fF, and from what you say I should be near useless, and I should be getting kicked around everywhere I go. But I'm not. I deal solid damage and when I can't I use crowd control to allow my teammates to do damage without dying. That you are having the problems you are is not a problem with a hunters but a problem with your approach, because there're a lot of things I do MUCH better than a lot of teammates.

Short version: The game's not broken. It's not more difficult for hunters than for anyone else. Frankly, you should probably play another class just so you can see the problems everyone else has.

[DurakkenX]

And i say go do ep2 chapter6 and say it's not broke v.v or how bout naming another class that has gaurenteed damage to it on every stage no matter the rank.

There are so many things wrong with the balancing that it is blatant. I love playing hunter. I just hate the fact that it's blatantly biased against them.

[-Rune-]

Yu didn't PROVE anything, As I've played hunter/ fortehunter all the same... Gaozorans are easy try a strategy... ok so you can't get in close because they keep using ice attacks, why not try equipping ice armor. You'll take less damage than you would if you were battling against their foie.

Next with del's, are you serious so there's a group of them, there's so many strategies you can use. You can move behind them and bash em with quick single attacks or a sword or partisan for group damage. If you don't see an opening you can alway focus on one at a time. If you have a problem with megid, who doesn't that's why it's in the game. If things like that weren't in pso it'd be too easy and WAY too boring. Just because you're having trouble with it, don't call the game broken, it's just your style of fighting, or rolling across the floor whatever you wanna call it. ._.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-03-14 08:09, DurakkenX wrote:
#1 almost everything but bosses that have multiple hit boxes have knock back or Gibarta which pretty much allows you to get 1 hit of a PA or a regular hit before being frozen or kick across the screen

#2 Assisting by tanking in this game is death which isn't tanking at all.

#3 Assisting via knock up or knock back really isn't assisting you since it knocks them up or back and makes your techs miss

#3 Saying you are useful in boss fights is really lame v.v That is pretty much what you are saying...and thats not really anything special considering all classes have multi-hit on something like a boss v.v



#1 is a false statement. Also, have you ever heard the statement "From Behind"?

#2 You shouldn't die while tanking. Unless you are doing it wrong. Which it sounds like you are. "Tanking" in this game is not similar to others, such as WoW. PSU tanking is more of an indirect tanking.

#3 Forces have something that's multi hit on a boss??? Please, do tell the secret!!! Unless you mean spears. I hope you don't mean spears.


And quite frankly that is the dumbest argument ever... and has always been. I shouldn't have to go play something else because the game is broke.

Tee hee! "I can't play this class, so the game is broken!!!". Weak. Very weak. It's always somebody elses fault....

[-Rune-]

I can't do this anymore... ~_~ think what you need to sleep at night. Why would every class have the same damage on every stage... Then why are there even elements in this game? Why are there different defenses for different enemies.. everything should be the same. Yep... that's fun... wooo.... look at me go.. ... ... yea... this is boring...

Enjoy getting beat up.

[CyarVictor]

I'm a hunter and I really don't have a problem. The bees for example, may have high evasion: take em out from the rear. Let someone else draw their attention, then go for the rear. Also, you should usually have a force or two when in areas with bees so you should be receiving buffs including evp boosts. And if that doesn't help, hopefully they have the debuff for evp/acc on the enemies. Sure there are some enemies that have a high resistance, but thay's few and far inbetween. Towards the bosses that fly, when they land; who does the most damage? Hunters. You know that gunners/techers usually knock them out of the sky and it's up to us to keep them down. If you have an issue, buy a freaking pistol. This is not hunter non-friendly. If you look at it in whole, hunters are actually ones who are requested alot in parties along with techers. I mean, take bruce A for example. The best teams who cleared it quickly in record times are mostly made up of melee fighters and a techer. We are to soak up damage and dispense it. If you are a cast or beast, even more the reason to take damage. Accept the fact that we hunters have the highest chance of death, but yet it's usually the techer who dies. If you really have a problem with death and megid, buy scapes. If not, then go play with the toddlers in Raffron Field Base.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 08:39, -Rune- wrote:
Yu didn't PROVE anything, As I've played hunter/ fortehunter all the same... Gaozorans are easy try a strategy... ok so you can't get in close because they keep using ice attacks, why not try equipping ice armor. You'll take less damage than you would if you were battling against their foie.

Next with del's, are you serious so there's a group of them, there's so many strategies you can use. You can move behind them and bash em with quick single attacks or a sword or partisan for group damage. If you don't see an opening you can alway focus on one at a time. If you have a problem with megid, who doesn't that's why it's in the game. If things like that weren't in pso it'd be too easy and WAY too boring. Just because you're having trouble with it, don't call the game broken, it's just your style of fighting, or rolling across the floor whatever you wanna call it. ._.



Megid is an illusion of difficulty v.v it's not hard it just shouldn't exist and just shows how uncreative the designer of the battle system really is. That is and has always been the most broken part of PSO and now PSU

ice armor doesn't stop you from being frozen and since now you have ice armor and they are now farther away...your going to take massive fire damage.

spears and swords are both slow and one will always be facing you and not to mention you'll not be stunning them so you'll still get hit. Compare that to the fact that rangers will not have to get near them and can continue moving which means they wont be hit...and then Force well they at least have the small lag in animation, but they can usually move away before anything gets to them and hey if they get hit they have resta so no prob ^.^

[-Rune-]

On 2007-03-14 08:45, CyarVictor wrote:
I'm a hunter and I really don't have a problem. The bees for example, may have high evasion: take em out from the rear. Let someone else draw their attention, then go for the rear. Also, you should usually have a force or two when in areas with bees so you should be receiving buffs including evp boosts. And if that doesn't help, hopefully they have the debuff for evp/acc on the enemies. Sure there are some enemies that have a high resistance, but thay's few and far inbetween. Towards the bosses that fly, when they land; who does the most damage? Hunters. You know that gunners/techers usually knock them out of the sky and it's up to us to keep them down. If you have an issue, buy a freaking pistol. This is not hunter non-friendly. If you look at it in whole, hunters are actually ones who are requested alot in parties along with techers. I mean, take bruce A for example. The best teams who cleared it quickly in record times are mostly made up of melee fighters and a techer. We are to soak up damage and dispense it. If you are a cast or beast, even more the reason to take damage. Accept the fact that we hunters have the highest chance of death, but yet it's usually the techer who dies. If you really have a problem with death and megid, buy scapes. If not, then go play with the toddlers in Raffron Field Base.



OMG I love ya <3 see see!!! *Jumping up and down* THAT'S a hunter, squeeeeee!! <3 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[-Rune-]

On 2007-03-14 08:49, DurakkenX wrote:

Megid is an illusion of difficulty v.v it's not hard it just shouldn't exist and just shows how uncreative the designer of the battle system really is. That is and has always been the most broken part of PSO and now PSU

ice armor doesn't stop you from being frozen and since now you have ice armor and they are now farther away...your going to take massive fire damage.



I love how you take all the worse situations that come up, but if yer that terrible this is what you do. When you see Gaozorans, just go back out of the room and let the doors close and let the rest of the Fo's/Rangers and real hunter take care of those magic meanies :3 Then when they're are done rejoin them and share the battle cry... your's will sound something like a meow to their rawr! But hey at least the gaozoran is dead http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 08:45, CyarVictor wrote:
I'm a hunter and I really don't have a problem. The bees for example, may have high evasion: take em out from the rear. Let someone else draw their attention, then go for the rear. Also, you should usually have a force or two when in areas with bees so you should be receiving buffs including evp boosts. And if that doesn't help, hopefully they have the debuff for evp/acc on the enemies. Sure there are some enemies that have a high resistance, but thay's few and far inbetween. Towards the bosses that fly, when they land; who does the most damage? Hunters. You know that gunners/techers usually knock them out of the sky and it's up to us to keep them down. If you have an issue, buy a freaking pistol. This is not hunter non-friendly. If you look at it in whole, hunters are actually ones who are requested alot in parties along with techers. I mean, take bruce A for example. The best teams who cleared it quickly in record times are mostly made up of melee fighters and a techer. We are to soak up damage and dispense it. If you are a cast or beast, even more the reason to take damage. Accept the fact that we hunters have the highest chance of death, but yet it's usually the techer who dies. If you really have a problem with death and megid, buy scapes. If not, then go play with the toddlers in Raffron Field Base.



BTW this is not a matter of my personal style of play, but rather the faultiness of how the mobs are in reference to how Hunters are, damage giving and damage taking they have the most things that resist them and they will get hit the most and have to deal with a lot of shyt that is broke and unbalanced.

Whether the players can deal with it does not matter when you are talking just plain mechanics and the mechanics of PSU are broke in so many ways it's not even funny. Hunters being incredibly unbalance in how much damage they give vs how much shyt they can dodge or take is just way out of balance when you look at ranger and force mechanics

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-14 08:49, DurakkenX wrote:

I'm not very good at playing a hunter but I can't admit this, even to myself, so instead I'll complain about the game being broken.



This is all you've been saying this entire time. There are solutions to all the problems you have--other hunters have found them, and it's how we manage to still perform well.

Yes, hunters have problems in some places, but so does everyone else, which is what makes this a team game. I'm sorry that you don't like being less powerful than other classes some of the time.

[JAFO22000]

Thanks Cyar. Great post. The fact that other hunters aren't agreeing with this guy should make him reflect upon his playstyle.

Also, how does megid "break the playstyle"? I can think of only a handful of enemies that have it...Deljabans, Seed Vitace, Jusnagan (sp?), Jarbas, Carriguine, Fakis.....

[amtalx]

Sooooo yeah....I like being a ranger http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ljkkjlcm9]

I love being a fighgunner and running in there. I have my scapes and I have 20 trimates. I don't care if I take damage, being a Beast it just means I get to Nano faster. People also try to use the same PAs all the time, when there are instances for certain weapons and PAs. If you know how to play a hunter, then there really shouldn't be a problem. Sure there are some enemies you're not that strong against, but you can still do a lot of damage to them. Take this from someone who has S ranked every S rank solo... (gotta do S2 now... sigh)... If you know what you're doing, you can beat any enemy as any class.

THE JACKEL

[DurakkenX]

Faulty logic you all have as well...take a logic class as i don't feel like explaining this statement.

I am talking about absolute play mechanics. Not myself or how I play.

You wouldn't say a bridge isn't broken because you can jump the gaping hole in the middle of it.

Thats exactly what you are suggesting. Because people are able to deal with it you think that there is nothing wrong with it.


Megid in and of itself is a incredibly bad game design element. It doesn't matter whether it's there...the fact is that it is just something to place a fake level of dificulty into something which doesn't actually raise in dificulty. It is something that isn't skill based in any way whether it kills you or not it pretty much doesn't matter as to stats either as you can't improve the one thing that stops it (if memory recalls correctly). There should never be an attack in a game that kills you instantly...especially in a game that punishes you for things completely out of your control and in many cases megid is impossible to dodge.

[CyarVictor]

You know what, ice armor does help against freezing. I wear a sori-senba and yet to be forzen constantly. I've run both Dulk Falkis S, Hive S, and Lab S2. I rarely get frozen, if I do the techer reversers me. I only take 200pts of damage from both jarbas and Gaozorans ice. i may take 700 pts from Gaozorans foie, but i have legs to....*wait for it* RUN. Megid, haha. You what; you may say techers and rangers can avoid megid because of their range and yet if you actually pay attention: they are the ones who draw attention more than a hunter. If an enemy pays attention to you, then either get someone to draw them towards them or take em out from the rear. The rear of any enemy is a good weak spot. It's actually a good strategy. Would you run straight towards an enemy throwing death balls, or do you attack from another point on the enemy?

Wow..... saying this is based on my own style. Says a lot then. One simple phrase for you then: Lack of skills. Not bragging, but you did put it out there as this was my own way I play. WRONG. It's called common sense and logic. Hey, we need damage for our suv's and beast forms. if you anything other race, then just use a diffferent strategy. If you need hp, use a mate. Quick and simple. If you are really worried, hire a techer. Hunters are meat shields. We are there again to take and dispense damage. Don't expect in any game not to take damage. If you are so worried, thne do play some other game with god-mode, but it sounds like that's what you expect in this game. Damage is there to make it hard for us. What kind of action-oriented game be without damage. It's not unbalanced. Hell, do you noticed how messed up a ranger or techer gets if they got hit? We barely look injured compared to what happens when a techer or gunner gets hit.

Again rangers and techers always draw the attention of the enemy more so than a hunter. if you really have a problem with enemies and their 'cheap' megid, if you believe that the mechanics are so broken; do the following:

A) run like a coward and cry
B)Change your class
C)Don't play
D)Suck it up and play
E)Use a new strategy
f)Change you class

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-03-14 09:10, DurakkenX wrote:
Megid in and of itself is a incredibly bad game design element. It doesn't matter whether it's there...the fact is that it is just something to place a fake level of dificulty into something which doesn't actually raise in dificulty. It is something that isn't skill based in any way whether it kills you or not it pretty much doesn't matter as to stats either as you can't improve the one thing that stops it (if memory recalls correctly). There should never be an attack in a game that kills you instantly...especially in a game that punishes you for things completely out of your control and in many cases megid is impossible to dodge.

There are tons of games with enemies with OHKO moves. And actually STA can be improved... Black Heart even improves STA. Plus if you take 0 damage from the attack, you can't get hit by the status. Guaranteed there will also be an item later that will prevent insta-death, just as burn, sleep etc are already out there. It'll prolly be uber-rare but exist.

THE JACKEL

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 09:12, CyarVictor wrote:
Wow..... saying this is based on my own style. Says a lot then.


I really hate people that seemingly can't read when having forum debates v.v

[_Deliverance_]

On 2007-03-14 08:59, Tiyr wrote:

On 2007-03-14 08:49, DurakkenX wrote:

I'm not very good at playing a hunter but I can't admit this, even to myself, so instead I'll complain about the game being broken.



This is all you've been saying this entire time. There are solutions to all the problems you have--other hunters have found them, and it's how we manage to still perform well.

Yes, hunters have problems in some places, but so does everyone else, which is what makes this a team game. I'm sorry that you don't like being less powerful than other classes some of the time.



He's acting like he's in a party, but still soloing each mob, and taking everything a mob can throw at him...When I see barta or megid mobs, they get a large dose of grenades from me. Take the opportunity to run up and tear them a new one!

And dude, try not standing in one spot directly infront of a raging mob. You might stop having your ass handed to you.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-03-14 09:10, DurakkenX wrote:
Faulty logic you all have as well...take a logic class as i don't feel like explaining this statement.

I am talking about absolute play mechanics. Not myself or how I play.

You wouldn't say a bridge isn't broken because you can jump the gaping hole in the middle of it.

Thats exactly what you are suggesting. Because people are able to deal with it you think that there is nothing wrong with it.


Megid in and of itself is a incredibly bad game design element. It doesn't matter whether it's there...the fact is that it is just something to place a fake level of dificulty into something which doesn't actually raise in dificulty. It is something that isn't skill based in any way whether it kills you or not it pretty much doesn't matter as to stats either as you can't improve the one thing that stops it (if memory recalls correctly). There should never be an attack in a game that kills you instantly...especially in a game that punishes you for things completely out of your control and in many cases megid is impossible to dodge.



Your "gaping hole" is actualy just a small pothole in the bridge. I guess game design is relative and you just don't like how this one is designed. The fact that there is no town meeting about this huge hole in our bridge should be a clue to you that the other townfolk don't see it as a problem. Which should make you go look at this hole again.

Megid is "skills" based. Dodge it, and it won't kill you. What's wrong with an insta-kill attack? I think it adds some added challenge to the game. People need to adjust playstyles when there is megid being thrown around. But you sound like someone who just wants to run up and attack, attack, attack, then when megid kills you point to bad game design.

Is Barbie Horse Adventure online??? because I don't think that has megid in it....

[-Rune-]

You do know megid doesn't kill you from instant death 100% of the time right? Hunters aren't gods, well maybe some are close but it's ok to have a weakness.

[amtalx]

Jeez, I can taste the hate in here. Interesting to read though.

[_Deliverance_]

On 2007-03-14 09:10, DurakkenX wrote:
Faulty logic you all have as well...take a logic class as i don't feel like explaining this statement.

I am talking about absolute play mechanics. Not myself or how I play.

You wouldn't say a bridge isn't broken because you can jump the gaping hole in the middle of it.

Thats exactly what you are suggesting. Because people are able to deal with it you think that there is nothing wrong with it.


Megid in and of itself is a incredibly bad game design element. It doesn't matter whether it's there...the fact is that it is just something to place a fake level of dificulty into something which doesn't actually raise in dificulty. It is something that isn't skill based in any way whether it kills you or not it pretty much doesn't matter as to stats either as you can't improve the one thing that stops it (if memory recalls correctly). There should never be an attack in a game that kills you instantly...especially in a game that punishes you for things completely out of your control and in many cases megid is impossible to dodge.



omfg have you ever even played video games? For years, across millions of games, there have been enemies that one shot the player. Kick your can around somewhere else.

[Tiyr]

If there were no challenges to work around this wouldn't be much of a game.

[-Rune-]

On 2007-03-14 09:18, _Deliverance_ wrote:

And dude, try not standing in one spot directly infront of a raging mob. You might stop having your ass handed to you.


lmao pretty much xD

"Is Barbie Horse Adventure online??? because I don't think that has megid in it...."
I haven't laughed so hard in awhile.

Just when I thought this was going to be a bad day xD

[CyarVictor]

No, you did state that in your own words. There are attack in this game that may seem bs like Dulk Falkis' planet drop, but it's called team work and/or strategy. megid rarely kills instantly. Jarbas have a stronger megid than deljabans. I don't see people dropping like flies. People die more from deljaban's regular attacks. Jarbas mainly kill people by freezing them with dambarta. Megid also has a slow flight speed. Again as someone stated, use something like mega/stamina to boost your sta or equip dark armor. Also, it's call hit and run if you have a problem with megid. Not hard to run. "But I'm in the middle of a PA", then accept that. Do you know how times people have been hit with megid in Lab S2/Hive S? I've seen a beast get hit for 14 times in a row and never died. Whoopie-do. Carry scapes.

If megid was so powerful, then a team would be wiped out in a few seconds. The only times where megid really gets to you is if you have your back to the enemy since it's an accuracy boost for them or in the middle of casting/pa spamming.

[Sychosis]

DurakkenX, this game is obviously too hard for you. I think Pong is more your speed. Seriously you sound like you're just a terrible player. Being one of the first hackers, it's no wonder you have no actual ability to kill things that require trace amounts of mental activity to beat.

[ljkkjlcm9]

as everyone has pointed out, yes it's a OHKO move, but it's not definite. There are games that have GUARANTEED OHKO moves if they hit, so just be glad it isn't that way or teams would get decimated. And the only time megid ever upsets me is if I just used a trimate, or just revived from a scape, or almost had my nano bar filled. Then it's just frustrating, otherwise, I don't really care.

THE JACKEL

[DurakkenX]

Actually game design is a pretty well defined science now >.>

Just because people don't mention it or don't come together about it doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Many people often don't speak up simply because they are afraid of what might happen to them, physically or reputationally or emotionally.


Honestly I wouldn't gripe about megid in the game...but thats their solution to ALL difficulty problems. It's cheap and not everything should have cheap shyt like that.

and personally I can handle myself far better than many and most times I die is because i be lazy or am going up against things way harder than what i should.

[GutsGO]

On 2007-03-14 09:10, DurakkenX wrote:

You wouldn't say a bridge isn't broken because you can jump the gaping hole in the middle of it.

Thats exactly what you are suggesting. Because people are able to deal with it you think that there is nothing wrong with it.


Megid in and of itself is a incredibly bad game design element. It doesn't matter whether it's there...the fact is that it is just something to place a fake level of dificulty into something which doesn't actually raise in dificulty. It is something that isn't skill based in any way whether it kills you or not it pretty much doesn't matter as to stats either as you can't improve the one thing that stops it (if memory recalls correctly). There should never be an attack in a game that kills you instantly...especially in a game that punishes you for things completely out of your control and in many cases megid is impossible to dodge.



You kinda contradict yourself by saying this...sure, if the Bridge is broken and you can jump over it doesn't solve the problem that its STILL broken and for most unpassable.

But since indeed MOST people can deal with Megid then how is it a problem?
The game is meant to CHALLENGE players, so throwing obstacles in the way is how the designers chose to hinder the player's progression.

Said obstacles also are not 100% impossible to overcome, they just take:

A) a team, (Team-based game, soloing isn't catered to but do-able)
B) Different tactics/playstyles.

Just because some people are stubborn or do not want to change how they play and adapt to obstacles doesn't make difficult parts in the game broken.

As a Hunter, I really enjoy going up against Megid and I think its one of the few things in the game that gives it energy and forces players to stay awake.

Sure it can cheap-shot you and sometimes I'm playing horrible that night or I'm half asleep and they just seem to follow me wherever I go, but I still love going up against it.

I say keep the challenge in the game.

[CyarVictor]

Megid is not cheap. Why? Because:

A)Our techers can use it.
B)Our gunners can use a similar shot-Killer Shot
C)DOESN"T kill most of the time
E)Makes it challenge so that you have to pay attention and move when you see it.

A cheap solution would jbe to walk into a room only to die without anything happening.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 09:27, Sychosis wrote:
DurakkenX, this game is obviously too hard for you. I think Pong is more your speed. Seriously you sound like you're just a terrible player. Being one of the first hackers, it's no wonder you have no actual ability to kill things that require trace amounts of mental activity to beat.



Ummm I beat the game solo when it was actually hard to do. And I was not only the first legit HUcast to 100 i was one of the first to lvl 100 in NA. I also didn't hack in the way you think...And I never hacked before I had most of the rare weapons in the game through trading and finding BEFORE hacking was even known to exist by the majority of people and before all the dupes became available so bite me ^.^

I also have the most exstensive list of collected legit items on xbox live that outdoes anyone elses. So yeah it's not hard at all to me.

Anyways you shouldn't attack the person..it really doesn't add anything to the argument to anyone intelligent.

[CyarVictor]

If you were the first level 100 Hucast, then you should remeber that megid back then had a better chance of killing you than on this game. Second, then you should realize the role of a hunter and understand what we have to deal with while being a hunter. In PSO and PSU, we have complete control over our character instead of real-time battles in most other MMORPGs like WOW. If you see an attack that you don't want to get hit by, then move. An attack like Dulk Falkis' planet drop just means you run to your techer for heal or to heal yourself to full before impact. Megid just keeps thing fun and exciting. If i die from it, oh well. That's what scape dolls are for. If not, wow, drop a moon.

[-Rune-]

I'm not trying to attack you, but I will say you're being very stubborn at a lot of things that people are saying to you. Not to mention you're on one of the best if not best forums where Phantasy star fans unite... To attack the game we love, or to say it's broken will not have us reply with hugs and kisses. I'll defend this game to the end.

[Itchee]

This sounds like a horn-tootin' contest.


On 2007-03-14 09:36, DurakkenX wrote:

Ummm I beat the game solo when it was actually hard to do. And I was not only the first legit HUcast to 100 i was one of the first to lvl 100 in NA.


How could you possibly prove that claim? (and unless you have some hard statistics from an outside source other than yourself....I would say you cant.)

[JAFO22000]

Why do you feel that megid is "their soloution to all difficulty problems?" Again, only a handful on creatures have this spell at their disposal. It's non-existant on Moatoob and Neudaiz (unless you attack the Kajibari (sp?) with dark). It is pretty easy to avoid most of the time AND you can prepare for it. It does make the game more challenging. It is not their way of making everthing more difficult, as you seem to think. Now, I would agree with you if they gave Ollakas and Olgohmans and Vandas and Poultys and Rappys and Ageetas and Onmagoug and Kog Nadds and Grinna Betes, etc. Megid. But they didn't. And still, Tunnel Recapture and Desert Goliath are two of the more challenging levels in the game. With no megid.

[Thrash777]

I find myself using my Handguns a lot as my fF... and bouncing between Spears and Swords...

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 09:36, DurakkenX wrote:

On 2007-03-14 09:27, Sychosis wrote:
DurakkenX, this game is obviously too hard for you. I think Pong is more your speed. Seriously you sound like you're just a terrible player. Being one of the first hackers, it's no wonder you have no actual ability to kill things that require trace amounts of mental activity to beat.



Ummm I beat the game solo when it was actually hard to do. And I was not only the first legit HUcast to 100 i was one of the first to lvl 100 in NA. I also didn't hack in the way you think...And I never hacked before I had most of the rare weapons in the game through trading and finding BEFORE hacking was even known to exist by the majority of people and before all the dupes became available so bite me ^.^

I also have the most exstensive list of collected legit items on xbox live that outdoes anyone elses. So yeah it's not hard at all to me.

Anyways you shouldn't attack the person..it really doesn't add anything to the argument to anyone intelligent.



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

PSO? Hard? You've just verified that you really have no grasp on difficulty.

[Sylpheed]

My main charecter is a fighter and i can safely say that i think fighters are becoming 'useless' using that word loosely any parties doing S2 sea bed lab runs will primarily look for a party consisting completely of gunners and techers because of the blatant fact that the combo does own espeically infect for gunners the only reason people look for fighters at the moment in my eyes is because they want them to aggro the monsters away from them and tank the hell out of the monsters....then you get yelled at for dying cause the techer is throwing whatever spell instead of healing when ure being frozen by a jarba...whats that heal yourself? I CANT IM FROZEN!

[DurakkenX]

I find fault in all games...it doesn't mean they are bad or that I don't like them. In fact it is widely known and said among developers if you can't find fault in a game you shoudn't be in the industry.

The fact that I see things other don't is not surprising and I'm only arguing cuz I'm bored cuz there is no way to win an argument like this. I should go lvl or start another old game out of nostolgia.

Ummm yes and only a few enemies had it... I'm sure you can remember that too right? It wasn't until ult ep2 i think when they actually added having almost everything having it. A few of Ult ep 1 has it ep 2+ they just went psycho with it...And regaurdless of the control level there are things that they put in that is nearly impossible to avoid...like getting blown up after fighting one of the machines...after a long fight with status effects going off every few moments.

regardlessly of whether people can deal with it or not or like it or not doesn't change the fact that according to Game design principals that it is broke due to the fact that game design principals strive to make things equal when developing a class system unless otherwise stated...like hunter vs fortefighter...obviously hunter shouldn't be balanced to fortefighter other wise there would be no reason for the latter

[MayLee]

I can't wait to get Megid and Dambarta caped so I can show them how it feels to be frozen and then smacked to death with a giant putple ball.>=(

[DurakkenX]

Sychosis has obviously never faced DF with no rares of any sort, a half lvled MAG, and lvl 60ish on VH when noone tells you what to do or shows you how to do it.

[CyarVictor]

Megid is still hasn't been proven as broken nor the class system. Something broken by game design is something like Gears of War: you can pistol slap someone to death in two hits and yet live after someone pumps an entere machine gun clip into you.


What does game design principal have to do with the classes in this game? If the latter classes where equal, that would mean they would be pretty much the same. Then this game would get boring really quickly. In most mmos' the wizard/caster is the strongest. In this game, it's almost a tie between the types. This game allows anybody to be good, not by the class or race or equipment, but on how well you play them.

[RadiantLegend]

The broken class in this game are FTs.

As a FF, i know im supposed to take damage, get my ass kicked around, and act as a bodyguard. I love it iand dont care if i get get megided 100 times, ill be back for more.

My only problem is when FTs are doing insane dmg and making me feel useless.

[DurakkenX]

that's funny though Cyar ^.^

please for the love of god read what i said and don't repeat.

The reason that principals say it is broke is because risk/benefit ratio is not equal.

[CyarVictor]

FT's throw up rpetty numbers, while all other classes will still do equal or more damage with SE's/PA's and other time. I'm fine with FT's since they have multiple things at hand to juggle while looking after their own self. They heal, boost, debuff, attack while making sure they don't get with their lack of hp and defense compared to any other class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 10:15 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 10:02, DurakkenX wrote:
Sychosis has obviously never faced DF with no rares of any sort, a half lvled MAG, and lvl 60ish on VH when noone tells you what to do or shows you how to do it.



I had a Varista and a Rudra thank you very much.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 10:15, CyarVictor wrote:
They heal, boost, debuff, attack while making sure they don't get with their lack of hp and defense compared to any other class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 10:15 ]</font>


cept most don't >.>

[Ryoki]

On 2007-03-14 09:50, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 09:36, DurakkenX wrote:

On 2007-03-14 09:27, Sychosis wrote:
DurakkenX, this game is obviously too hard for you. I think Pong is more your speed. Seriously you sound like you're just a terrible player. Being one of the first hackers, it's no wonder you have no actual ability to kill things that require trace amounts of mental activity to beat.



Ummm I beat the game solo when it was actually hard to do. And I was not only the first legit HUcast to 100 i was one of the first to lvl 100 in NA. I also didn't hack in the way you think...And I never hacked before I had most of the rare weapons in the game through trading and finding BEFORE hacking was even known to exist by the majority of people and before all the dupes became available so bite me ^.^

I also have the most exstensive list of collected legit items on xbox live that outdoes anyone elses. So yeah it's not hard at all to me.

Anyways you shouldn't attack the person..it really doesn't add anything to the argument to anyone intelligent.



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

PSO? Hard? You've just verified that you really have no grasp on difficulty.


Anyone who thinks PSO or PSU are hard would get murdered on Monster Hunter, which is what I have been playing recently.

[Akaimizu]

Hmm. I remember the days when I used to be faced with the question. (Is there absolutely anything that isn't Bullet Resistant?)

To a big degree, I'm a bit shocked to see even that list is Melee resistant as it began to feel almost every monster (cept fliers) took the major punishment from Melee and scoffed the bullets.

Nevertheless, it's still hurtful to the early ranger game. It's just that now so many of us gunners have been raising all those elements and Status Effects on our Bullets. If we were to suddenly lose our elemental and Ult Bullet PAs, Rangers would be a very hurting class.

I think it's the late game that's making certain things better for the rangers. High Level SEs really make the difference, though they make you pay dearly (with time) to get them.

However, I'm not a pure ranger. I'm a Guntecher, who often has at least a much juggling to do as a FT. (Party dependant). We do indeed have the worst combined Defense, in the game. (The difference in DFP between FT and GT is hardly worth mentioning. The difference in MST between them and the fighters, is also hardly worth mentioning) Still, I pride myself when I do well with the class because it's so satisfying when your work keeps up and establishes yourself as a very beneficial helper to the group.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 10:28 ]</font>

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-03-14 10:15, CyarVictor wrote:
FT's throw up rpetty numbers, while all other classes will still do equal or more damage with SE's/PA's and other time. I'm fine with FT's since they have multiple things at hand to juggle while looking after their own self. They heal, boost, debuff, attack while making sure they don't get with their lack of hp and defense compared to any other class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 10:15 ]</font>


THANK YOU!! Someone who gets it. Yes, I can hit for 2600 with Diga, but it takes me awhile to cast it!! If a hunter can hit five times for an average of 600/hit in the time it takes me to cast one diga, who is doing more damage, really? Everyone just looks at the one big number. *sigh*

Cyar, I like your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Can I send you my PC sometime?

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 10:16, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:02, DurakkenX wrote:
Sychosis has obviously never faced DF with no rares of any sort, a half lvled MAG, and lvl 60ish on VH when noone tells you what to do or shows you how to do it.



I had a Varista and a Rudra thank you very much.



Another person who can't read yay ^.^

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 10:20, JAFO22000 wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:15, CyarVictor wrote:
FT's throw up rpetty numbers, while all other classes will still do equal or more damage with SE's/PA's and other time. I'm fine with FT's since they have multiple things at hand to juggle while looking after their own self. They heal, boost, debuff, attack while making sure they don't get with their lack of hp and defense compared to any other class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 10:15 ]</font>


THANK YOU!! Someone who gets it. Yes, I can hit for 2600 with Diga, but it takes me awhile to cast it!! If a hunter can hit five times for an average of 600/hit in the time it takes me to cast one diga, who is doing more damage, really? Everyone just looks at the one big number. *sigh*

Cyar, I like your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Can I send you my PC sometime?



You because the hunter is only most likely getting one hit and flying across the room, dead, dodging, or frozen

[GutsGO]

I know I'm going to get ripped apart for saying this, but Im a little confused.

Isn't this a Team oriented game with (as of now) no Player vs. Player modes?

So how is the so-called ratio of risk benefit broken if you put yourself in a Team comprised of Techers, Gunners, and Hunters? (which is how the designers designed the game to be played) Since you don't battle other players with (somtimes) more powerful abilities, why does it even matter?

I think its great that certain classes are good at certain things and the guaranteed way to win is surround yourself with different classes on a team. As many have stated, it would be pointless to try other classes if they all had the same risk/benefit ratio.

There are definately things wrong with PSU, Classes are not one of them.

[CyarVictor]

I repeat by asking, what purpose does it involve? In all honesty, this game was designed for community and team strategy. This game was not designed for soloing. Techers heal and support while bringing in artillery. Gunners constantly hammer enemies while inflicting SE's and drawing attention. Hunters are there to intercept enemies that come after the techers/gunners while dealing damage. If you are in a battle while onmagoug for example, the techers/gunners are constantly hammering his wings, not his body. Why is this? Simple to drop him to the floor where is becomes an easy target. Hunters may be shooting if they have a gun, if not, they wait for him to drop or land before assualting him with PA's. Techers then spam attack techs and healing when he retaliates. No one class is above another nor is one class below another. This game is not based on class/race statistics, but on how people use them. Game principals are based off real-time/turn-based games like WoW. Those games are more based off equipment/race/class. PSU is for people to use any combination is the way that suites them. This game is based on how people interact with one another, not by cookie cutter setups or princiapls.

[chibiLegolas]

If one of the main roles of a fF is to be a meat shield, then obviously they need top notch armor to go with their weapons. I just wonder why Sega didn't flush out the more usages of units. Comparing the amount and variety of units of PSO to PSU is a joke.
We'd like more STA resistant units or other non rare varieties please...
Where's my devil resist or other increment variations?!

Not to mention making a good set of armor is difficult, expensive, and time consuming...
Well, a bit more than the other PM variations anyways...

[Tiyr]

Hunters don't do well in Labs S2 comparatively pretty much because of Mizura. We don't kill them as fast as other classes, and since speed is all people care about for that particular place, hunters are less preferred there.

Once Mad Beasts S2 is out, just as one example, everyone'll want hunters for the Gol Dolvas and Polavorhas, if nothing else.

It's fairly even. Sure, we can't kill Mizuras or Tengohgs or the like that quickly, but if you're getting outdamaged by a techer on Drua Goras or Grinnas or Nadds or anything else with multiple hitboxes, then you should examine how you're playing.

If you want to bring the idiotic "risk vs. reward" argument (which hardly matters once you're class lvl 10 anyway) into this, yes, hunter classes will get hit more. Probably a lot more (although if you're careful, you've got a ton of CC tools to stay safe), but you've got triple the defense and twice the HP of any techer.

if you're not having a problem doing it (as you say you're not), then the only problem would be other classes having it easier, right? In which case I'd suggest you place a fG and see just how easy they really don't have it. Or, if you think the game is harder than it ought to be, well, that's a matter of opinion, even though I think the game's probably too easy as it is.

And on a side note, I think Megid was much worse as a mechanic in PSO with those stupid Ob lillies. The way movement works in this game, it's never hard to dodge, as long as you keep moving and use PAs that allow you to move (such as Buten).

[Akaimizu]

I agree with GutsGO. It's pretty much what I say. I don't see any time coming, where I would not welcome the combination of types in a group. They do combine the roles of engagement to not only hurt the monsters, but to tear them to pieces with good coordinated teamwork. So you hunter concentrate on hitting them, I'll concentrate on making your hits more painful for them. (whips out a pair of Twin Gunnies, pulsating with Twin MayaLee).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 10:32 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 10:21, DurakkenX wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:16, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:02, DurakkenX wrote:
Sychosis has obviously never faced DF with no rares of any sort, a half lvled MAG, and lvl 60ish on VH when noone tells you what to do or shows you how to do it.



I had a Varista and a Rudra thank you very much.



Another person who can't read yay ^.^



I was implying that I had just as gimped equips as you, shat my pants when I first saw DF's second form just like you, and had no forking clue what to do, just like you. But I had 0 problems killing things, unlike you.

[DurakkenX]

the reason it's important is one that was taken out because another problem that wasn't handled and still has not been handled by Sega...and another created by other players. Basically money and bad forces. Why should I take the risk of dieing when the only benefit in killing things at later points in the game is the item that drops and most people either have random or set it order or if it's give to finder i'll most likely be dead when the item drops so it's worthless. The risk is i lose 5k or if i die enough 50k and another 5-10k on mates...and I have to spend at least 1mil on any weapon i'm carrying in ps2/pc

the other problem can be solved with people relearning what they should be doing but that's unlikely.

[Xaeris]

Ignoring the e-peen war that took over the latter part of the thread...it seems to me that the problem is that fFs only have one reasonable method of killing things while everyone else has at least two. So when the rest of us run into something resistant to our main means of damage, we have auxiliary means for the job. Fighgunner runs into a jarba? Dualies. Fortegunner having trouble with a Nadd? Out comes the 30% dark dagger. Wartecher having trouble hitting a bugge? Diga. Fortetecher sees one of the few things that shrug at their techs? That's okay. They've got their *level 30* bullets.

Fortefigther runs into something that doesn't take full damage from melee? Well...that's a problem.

[Tiyr]

Well, that explains why you're having problems and I'm not. I play with friends who don't suck and actually do what they're supposed to. I win?

[Tiyr]

fTs are the excepetion--they do have two. But asking a fG to pull out a dagger and expecting it to do any real damage is silly. They're better off trying to infect the thing with a dark rifle. fG melee damage is on par with fF ranged damage.

Why fT get s-rank ranged weapons and level thirty bullets is a bit beyond me, but if there's any issue it's the exception afford one class, not that melee is gimped.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 10:33, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:21, DurakkenX wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:16, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:02, DurakkenX wrote:
Sychosis has obviously never faced DF with no rares of any sort, a half lvled MAG, and lvl 60ish on VH when noone tells you what to do or shows you how to do it.



I had a Varista and a Rudra thank you very much.



Another person who can't read yay ^.^



I was implying that I had just as gimped equips as you, shat my pants when I first saw DF's second form just like you, and had no forking clue what to do, just like you. But I had 0 problems killing things, unlike you.




Varista wasn't all that bad long ago and it is a rare...you do realize drop rates have massively altered over the years and originally those things really weren't easy to get when the game first came out.

And like i said...don't assume i have ever had trouble. I also was a HUcast which is by far the hardest char to play with as most should tell you for very obvious reasons.

The Original way the game was it was decently difficult at first because not much was known or available.

[CyarVictor]

Again, if one is worried about running up, getting one hit in, and dying by freeze or being tossed: one solution- don't run straight at the enemy. Engage his back side where he can't retaliate. Constantly change your position. You said at first that the mechanics are broken, that is wasn't by player error. Now you said that you run up for only one hit only to be tossed or frozen. When would you do that in a game that allows to to move on the go in battle. Would you actually run straight into Vanda fire? No, of course not. Then why would you allow yourself to run right into a free attack for the enemie? Stop throwing up game mechanics and principals while stating that you run up, hit, and get knocked back. This game has control over movement and attacks unlike real-times/turned-based battles.

As to our means, we fortefighters have a second approach called flinching. We can flinch enemies better than gunners and techers. When is there really an enemy that takes almost no damage from fF's? We do have elemented weapons at our disposal. Sure, we do have to shell out some major meseta, but it's worth the damage dealt. Also, you have to accept what comes with the job. I have never recalled an enemy in this game that doesn't take much damage from fF's. If you imply the bots, just use a weapon of the opposite element. Bugges and Mizurha may be a problem, but as I stated before: attack the rear. Also you shouldn't really go into those missions without techers. Gunners have it far worst than hunters when it comes to Bugges/Mizurha.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 10:46 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

Believe me. The bad is with every game. Heck, in FFXI, if you have bad party members, when you need them, you're screwed.

In this game, it's all for one and one for all, in a way. If you recognize your role and realize how it benefits the party, it's a good thing. Maybe not everybody is thinking that way; but the game is still designed around group tactics. I raised my character not simply for my own benefit but for the benefit of others.

It's up to you to find like-minded individuals. One person might select something thinking, "Wow, I can really kick butt with this." Another person may say, "Wow, this is cool. Now if I use this, I can kick butt; However, I can get this so I can help so and so." I love Twin MayaLee not because it helps me, but that it is so fundamentally useful to Hunters in the party. I'll select another thing, because it aids a force. (I would love to get a Twin MayaLee variant that lowers enemy MST).

Perhaps, one of the reasons SEGA gave us Twin Gun users a Twin MayaLee was so that we would get it, say "Cool" and then remember to throw the Fighters a bone, by using them and removing a chunk of Melee Resistance off them.

[Xaeris]

The way the game is set up, a Lv 10 skill cap is much more preferable than a Lv 10 bullet cap. This is because skills get much more power from the equipped weapon than bullets and skills. I mean, yeah, it's nice to have a Phantom to shoot that Dark Shot or a Howrod to cast that Dambarta, but really, a Falogoh or a Tomoirod would do just as well in the respective scenario. On the other hand, when we were all still limited to basic jobs, I was outdoing lousier hunters in melee as a Force thanks to my 38% Dark Twin Rippers.

I mean, after a Nadd is infected, that virus is good for about 20 seconds; rather than waste PP on less than effective means of damage, a melee weapon would do very nice damage. Not uber, but hey, it's auxiliary for a reason. This is what fortefigther lacks; a pistol with a 10 cap isn't threatening. At all.

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-03-14 10:37, Xaeris wrote:


Fortefigther runs into something that doesn't take full damage from melee? Well...that's a problem.



If monsters are Gun resistant, A GT really has nothing else, either. Our damage techs (max 10) are a joke. Our melee is feeble and last resort. Think of that. We are other-class dependant, so we stock up on stuff to make it easier for you guys.

Perhaps this is a way to have groups start looking at classes who, by nature, are forced to constantly help you out.

I just wish that more people don't look at this game with too few dimensions, and always look at individual goals shot. It's like a basketball team that only looks at the star forward and the Center, and discounts all the other team members who help make them what they are.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 10:52 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-14 10:44, DurakkenX wrote:
Varista wasn't all that bad long ago and it is a rare...you do realize drop rates have massively altered over the years and originally those things really weren't easy to get when the game first came out.

And like i said...don't assume i have ever had trouble. I also was a HUcast which is by far the hardest char to play with as most should tell you for very obvious reasons.

The Original way the game was it was decently difficult at first because not much was known or available.



Except I didn't know it had a special attack. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

I was a n00bmar with a gun and sabers. They looked cooler than swords.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-14 10:45, CyarVictor wrote:
Again, if one is worried about running up, getting one hit in, and dying by freeze or being tossed: one solution- don't run straight at the enemy. Engage his back side where he can't retaliate. Constantly change your position. You said at first that the mechanics are broken, that is wasn't by player error. Now you said that you run up for only one hit only to be tossed or frozen. When would you do that in a game that allows to to move on the go in battle. Would you actually run straight into Vanda fire? No, of course not. Then why would you allow yourself to run right into a free attack for the enemie? Stop throwing up game mechanics and principals while stating that you run up, hit, and get knocked back. This game has control over movement and attacks unlike real-times/turned-based battles.

As to our means, we fortefighters have a second approach called flinching. We can flinch enemies better than gunners and techers. When is there really an enemy that takes almost no damage from fF's? We do have elemented weapons at our disposal. Sure, we do have to shell out some major meseta, but it's worth the damage dealt. Also, you have to accept what comes with the job. I have never recalled an enemy in this game that doesn't take much damage from fF's. If you imply the bots, just use a weapon of the opposite element. Bugges and Mizurha may be a problem, but as I stated before: attack the rear. Also you shouldn't really go into those missions without techers. Gunners have it far worst than hunters when it comes to Bugges/Mizurha.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 10:46 ]</font>


Are you implying that people walk into gibarta...you know that is sorta hard to stop and comes up quick and under your feet?

and as for robots...they have high defense AND are melee resistent and where you should be doing 200dmg unless you have a elemental mod on your weapon you'll be doing 50dmg and then afterwords you get blown up, because as many point out most of the time you can't get out of the way.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-14 10:48, Xaeris wrote:
The way the game is set up, a Lv 10 skill cap is much more preferable than a Lv 10 bullet cap. This is because skills get much more power from the equipped weapon than bullets and skills. I mean, yeah, it's nice to have a Phantom to shoot that Dark Shot or a Howrod to cast that Dambarta, but really, a Falogoh or a Tomoirod would do just as well in the respective scenario. On the other hand, when we were all still limited to basic jobs, I was outdoing lousier hunters in melee as a Force thanks to my 38% Dark Twin Rippers.

I mean, after a Nadd is infected, that virus is good for about 20 seconds; rather than waste PP on less than effective means of damage, a melee weapon would do very nice damage. Not uber, but hey, it's auxiliary for a reason. This is what fortefigther lacks; a pistol with a 10 cap isn't threatening. At all.



With a fF's high ATP you can still put out some decent damage on fliers. Yes, it'll be worse than everyone else's...but your melee damage is better than anyone else's in the game, hands down. So's your durability.

You chose a specialist class, so I don't think that affords you the right to complain about having weaknesses. You're the absolute best at what you do, but that comes with weaknesses. As it should.

[CyarVictor]

The smallest number I've seen on a bot was still in the 100's. The thing with bots is the lack of hp they have. From how you stated it, it did sound like people ran straight into an attack. I know how much ice comes up in Lab. I've had four Jarbas using Gibarata on me, but not much damage or freezing. Don't expect hunters not to take damage in this or any game. Omg the bot blew up in my face. Pop a mate. I'm on fire, pop an antimate. I'm frozen, hopefully the techer reversers or restas me. if not, then I can use a scape. Stuff happens. Are you saying this game should be easier than it already is? Because of this constant complaining on mechanics and difficulty, it feels that ST is actually nerfing enemies in this game. GoF on S is cake walk with 4 fF's, 1 fT, and 1fG. Even us fF's were doing 200+ damge on the bots without lightning elemented weapons. When we did pull those out, we were htting for 300+ damage.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-14 11:03 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

You chose a specialist class, so I don't think that affords you the right to complain about having weaknesses. You're the absolute best at what you do, but that comes with weaknesses. As it should.



I agree...where are rangers and forces weaknesses?

[DurakkenX]

you know frozen status is cured by antimate...it just disables the palette ^.^

[Xaeris]

I'm not for a fortefighter the exact reason I specified. I couldn't stand to not have some sort of backup in the situations I describe. In fact, as far as this discussion goes, I play jobs that are nearly the opposite in terms of versatility; wartecher and protranser.

You know what they say about assuming. Moving on. What you say would be acceptable if the other two forte classes had to make the same sacrifice. They don't. Fortegunners have unmatched ranged damage, yet not only is the skill cap less of a burden than the bullet cap, they also have a wider variety of melee weapons to choose from. fFs get pistols. To be equivalent, fGs would only get daggers. They get sabers too. And partisans. If we were being equivalent from the fG's end, then fFs would get...shotguns. Yeah, I'd pick up fF in a heartbeat if they got shotguns, 10 cap be damned.

And fTs...well, they obviously didn't have to give up too much to be unmatched in tech damage.

Edit: lol, "outmatched"...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xaeris on 2007-03-14 11:10 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

If monsters are Gun resistant, A GT really has nothing else, either.

Let's see: DoT's via status effects. Traps (with trap SEs), and level 10 skills coupled with average ATP (and high ATA).

This is the crux of the issues with ForteFighters. And I think it is a ForteFighter ONLY issue.

I will add: the prevalence of megids if a little much. I don't see the 'value' in having Deljarbans shoot low grade Megids. I can understand some enemies having access to the spell, but to have nemies spam it all day add little value and lots of annoyance.

And for those who say "dodge it" get off your high horse, please. The speed at which this can be thrown is a problem in a low person party (1, 2 or 3), means anyone can be taken down by it at any time.


With regard to the underlying question, if you want to see which class/job has it easiest, look at the folks who are level 80. ForteTechers, mostly. Are they all simply so skilled at the game that we should be stunned by thier 'leet'-ness? Or is it that buffs+debuffs (which they alone have access to @ 21+), plus 21+ techs = win.

PSO was a different game. I had 8 *different* characters over level 130, and 6 over 150. PSO was easier. Period.

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-03-14 11:20, SolomonGrundy wrote:





If monsters are Gun resistant, A GT really has nothing else, either.

Let's see: DoT's via status effects. Traps (with trap SEs), and level 10 skills coupled with average ATP (and high ATA).



That's true. In fact, it really becomes the DOT SEs that really make the difference. Generally, a late game device (traps withstanding). (The real DOT comes with our preseverance and time raising it in our assortment of ranged weapons types)

If there is one thing that seems to get through all the game's defenses, resistances, and anything else; is successful SEs. If everything seems to suck for me, that's the ticket. (I'm still building my SE4, so I haven't gotten there yet. Supposedly my world changes for me, when I get there) Still, I have yet to see ForteFighters do bad damage for anything.

And that stuff doesn't help us survive any better. Whether it is a monster that is a hitting kind, or a magic kind; we can easily be ripped apart by them, unless we get the support of Fighters and/or Forces. Doesn't matter what level we go to, if it's high enough level monsters, we're looking for you. Just because we get level 10 skills doesn't mean it is a good idea for us to melee. There's very few chances where we can do it safely. Most of the time, it's suicide.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 11:47 ]</font>

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-03-14 11:03, DurakkenX wrote:


You chose a specialist class, so I don't think that affords you the right to complain about having weaknesses. You're the absolute best at what you do, but that comes with weaknesses. As it should.



I agree...where are rangers and forces weaknesses?



WHAT?!?!?!

Fine. Yes. "Forces and Rangers have no weakness. We can solo and survive and kill everything with no penalties."

It is obviously pointless to argue with you as you are not listening to what anyone says. If you don't know the weakness of a force or a ranger, then it is not possible to hold a decent argument with you.

Bye!

[Xaeris]

Now, now, I'm the one presenting this particular argument and I just got here. Shouldn't I be your opponent?

[RadiantLegend]

Gunner have it easy with mizuras and bugges. Im also a fortegunner, i know this.

A better question would be which class do you see that solo the most?

FT right? my point exactly.

[amtalx]

Gunners kinda take it in the junk when it comes to damage potential, except for the shotgun. But if you run around trying to point blank everything you'll be lying face down on the ground pretty quickly.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2007-03-14 12:13 ]</font>

[-Rune-]

On 2007-03-14 10:17, Ryoki wrote:
Anyone who thinks PSO or PSU are hard would get murdered on Monster Hunter, which is what I have been playing recently.


http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif is monster hunter still able to be played online? Omg that was one of my fave games to play http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Itchee]

On 2007-03-14 12:22, -Rune- wrote:

On 2007-03-14 10:17, Ryoki wrote:
Anyone who thinks PSO or PSU are hard would get murdered on Monster Hunter, which is what I have been playing recently.


http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif is monster hunter still able to be played online? Omg that was one of my fave games to play http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif



Dont know about the PS2 version, but you can still get online with the PSP version if you have Xlink Kai.

[Akaimizu]

The PSP certainly is. However, it's a little tricky getting it to work. You have to jump through some hoops to get that Adhoc connection to work over the Internet. There are a few sites dedicated to getting it working, but I don't think any of them have made the instructions very clear to follow. That alone, tends to limit the number of users actually using it.

I still haven't figured out the Xlink stuff to get it working, but I have played it. (I don't miss out on my monster killing or dungeon crawling games)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 12:25 ]</font>

[-Rune-]

Ah ok, I had the PS2 version. No psp, not really interested in that one. I'm just surprised to see this thread is blazing since I left earlier o_o; Wish I was here for it

[Itchee]

On 2007-03-14 12:24, Akaimizu wrote:
The PSP certainly is. However, it's a little tricky getting it to work. You have to jump through some hoops to get that Adhoc connection to work over the Internet. There are a few sites dedicated to getting it working, but I don't think any of them have made the instructions very clear to follow. That alone, tends to limit the number of users actually using it.

I still haven't figured out the Xlink stuff to get it working, but I have played it. (I don't miss out on my monster killing or dungeon crawling games)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 12:25 ]</font>




There was a post in the Monster Hunter forum on GameFAQS.com that was at one point stickied about how to get Xlink working properly. A little confusing at first, but not too bad if youve messed with it a bit. Its been about a year since Ive had a PSP w/ Xlink, but if i had the opportunity to refresh my memory, I could probably walk you through it...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itchee on 2007-03-14 12:36 ]</font>

[McLaughlin]

I think Akaimizu, and other Guntechers are forgetting about Bows. They bypass defense and, from what I could tell from my 10 levels of Force, the firearms resistance. You also have Cards and Crossbows, which do good damage even in spite of the decreased effectiveness.

Wartechers have Bows, and Techs, and Melee damage.

Fortetechers very rarely run into enemies that can brush off their Tech damage, but if they do, out comes...the Bow.

Fortegunner is unmatched in its ability to inflict status ailments, which are equally effective, regardless of resistances. Once the creature is infected/burned/shocked they can either switch guns for an elemental bonus or equip a melee weapon to conserve PP.

Fighgunners get a few firearms to help them out (even though with a level 20 cap the best they can do it level 2 SE).

Protransers get (big shocker) Bows! And level 30 Bullets and Skills. Not to mention great SE weapons like Laser Cannons and Grenade Launchers.

Fortefighter has Level 30 Skills and Level 10 Bullets. The ONLY ranged weapon they have is a bloody Handgun, which leaves them with SE1. They've got nothing to fall back on. And there are an astounding number of occasions where they run into melee resistant monsters.

It's obvious 3/4 of the people posting here are speaking with no experience. Fortefighters are being beat on. It's plain, and it's simple. And don't try the "well, they chose to specialize" bullshit, because a level 10 melee/Tech cap is FAR less of a hindrance than a level 10 Bullet cap. Especially when they can only use a Handgun while the other Forte classes get access to several melee weapons, and far more effective means to combat resilient enemies.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Obsidian_Knight on 2007-03-14 12:53 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

I still need to get my SE4 weapons up. Which I will have to use Sparingly due to the PP cost(regardless of shot), speed of shot affecting the rate of which the status effect lands. Don't forget that we stop using bows for Damage, only SE. Even our twin handguns out direct-damage our Bows on all occassions, even with resistances. (Being locked at only A rank does that to you)

Even with all that, I hardly see myself ever beat a fortefighter for damage over time. I don't get a single worthy multi-point hitting attack. Nor could I jump in a crowd and hope to do a fF damage. Once you go in there, you win, melee resistant be darned. Maybe I could get them all status effected (SE4) and get close to ya with it; and then maybe my guns are empty already.

Not to mention Defense is a fantastic trait. Bows were keen with that lack of defense thing, but they eat PP like crazy and they ensured that their fire rate eventually loses dmg-wise with our regular utilitarian weapons, even with resistances.

Like I said before, I wouldn't mind if the fFs got some more MST, but more importantly, fFs would do well if they were given a bit more ability to stop techs from being used. Maybe the good knockdown is more useful than people thought, especially if the tech chuckers are the ones always being flattened.

Maybe if I didn't thank the makers for fFs, then perhaps I wouldn't be biased. As long as they save my life and help me end the level faster, I think they are keen. When I have the choice, I always bring one around.

Yes, I don't have the experience of playing a ForteFighter, but I have the experience of being with them. Their strengths are definitely being under-rated here, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get a little boost given how much I depend on them. That only helps me help them. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-14 13:58 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I'd like to talk about the subject of defense and gunners which came up. While it IS true that gunners have lower DFP than hunters, they have much higher EVP. And since bullets have little downside to the having the block animation, EVP is actually a good thing.

I *believe* spell blocking is also accomplished by EVP (though I may be wrong), adding an additional dimension this Stat.

Then last, but not least, the increased stamina of ranger types (especially females ones), means less DoTs applied to you, and that saves a lot of damage in the long run, unless your force is on the reverser stick, or you are well stocked with antimates/sols. Personally I find after a "quick" Linear Line S mission, my supply of anitmates is low, and paying 100/item from the shop is a poor use of resources.


For soloing, it's Wartecher, and probably Human as the best race. Access to SE3, techs, high DFP, EVP, MST, HP. If megids is your concern (and it often is), you may find newman more to your liking.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-03-14 12:51, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
I think Akaimizu, and other Guntechers are forgetting about Bows. They bypass defense and, from what I could tell from my 10 levels of Force, the firearms resistance. You also have Cards and Crossbows, which do good damage even in spite of the decreased effectiveness.

Wartechers have Bows, and Techs, and Melee damage.

Fortetechers very rarely run into enemies that can brush off their Tech damage, but if they do, out comes...the Bow.

Fortegunner is unmatched in its ability to inflict status ailments, which are equally effective, regardless of resistances. Once the creature is infected/burned/shocked they can either switch guns for an elemental bonus or equip a melee weapon to conserve PP.

Fighgunners get a few firearms to help them out (even though with a level 20 cap the best they can do it level 2 SE).

Protransers get (big shocker) Bows! And level 30 Bullets and Skills. Not to mention great SE weapons like Laser Cannons and Grenade Launchers.

Fortefighter has Level 30 Skills and Level 10 Bullets. The ONLY ranged weapon they have is a bloody Handgun, which leaves them with SE1. They've got nothing to fall back on. And there are an astounding number of occasions where they run into melee resistant monsters.

It's obvious 3/4 of the people posting here are speaking with no experience. Fortefighters are being beat on. It's plain, and it's simple. And don't try the "well, they chose to specialize" bullshit, because a level 10 melee/Tech cap is FAR less of a hindrance than a level 10 Bullet cap. Especially when they can only use a Handgun while the other Forte classes get access to several melee weapons, and far more effective means to combat resilient enemies.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Obsidian_Knight on 2007-03-14 12:53 ]</font>


Nice points. But it still all comes back to teamwork. If you run into a melee resistant enemy while soloing then it may be a little tougher to take down (come on now, you guys are talking like you do absolutely no damage to a resistant enemy.). If it's too tough to take down that way, try a different strategy/weapon. If it's still too hard to defeat, perhaps you need to solo a new mission? As a force, I find it hard to solo GoF if there are Female newmans there. They are hard to hit with techs, heal themselves often and my card/bow do little damage to them....I can hit ONE at a time, and the others will eventually heal that one to full health. Anyway, I hardly solo this level because it's not a good one for me. Same with the Subway level. Those Jasse's with the pistols will tear me to pieces if I try.

Anyway, no class can truly solo anything, nor is good against everything. I still don't think Fortefighters "got the shaft" on balance. They can still outdamage any class in most situations. They also have a large variety of weapons at their disposal...true, only handguns, but you can use spears, axes, sabers, twin sabers, claw, twin claw, dagger, twin daggers, swords, knuckles....Most FF that I know only use 2-3 of the above classes and shirk the rest. Perhaps those knuckles may be useful for something???

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-03-14 14:31, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I *believe* spell blocking is also accomplished by EVP (though I may be wrong), adding an additional dimension this Stat.

Then last, but not least, the increased stamina of ranger types (especially females ones), means less DoTs applied to you, and that saves a lot of damage in the long run, unless your force is on the reverser stick, or you are well stocked with antimates/sols. Personally I find after a "quick" Linear Line S mission, my supply of anitmates is low, and paying 100/item from the shop is a poor use of resources.


Stamina isn't all that great. It's a negligible stat which I've barely seen work better. Magician is a Beast fF, and perhaps the Beast part helps more than the class. SEs hardly stick to him half as long as they stick to me. I switch to reverser mainly because I get SE on me just as much as the next guy, who gets it for long periods of time.

Evade has quite limited use. Even with my evade, I don't see it happen very often, and almost never for anything past the first hit. There's a huge huge difference between the other Ranger classes and Guntecher for Hitpoints and overall defense. If the evade fails (which it does, most of the time) all we see are severe damage numbers. Seriously, our true defense is really *don't be there*. That's it. Which means we run, and when running you aren't attacking. If we get hit, we can't attack, if we evade, we're also stuck there for anything else to hit. And without a single thing to do against being outnumbered....Calling all knights in shining armors.

And don't get me started with what I need to do in order to solo Linear Line S. Guess what I do when I even solo Mad Creatures S. Get a Fighter. Screw that expensive noise trying to truly solo it.

[DurakkenX]

low hp/dfp/evp is countered by not being stuck in one place for longer periods of time within hitting distance of enemies.

also i love how people say use a stun PA when most people for some reason are forgetting you can't stun an entire room of enemies...there being 3 enemies or more in almost every area

[Parn]

On 2007-03-14 14:36, JAFO22000 wrote:
Perhaps those knuckles may be useful for something???
Knuckles are arguably the best weapon to use against robots and bugs. They have the best accuracy of any melee weapon which is great for bugs since we need every bit of accuracy we can get. While their damage isn't the highest by any means, the combo executes quickly (particularly the first two hits) which allows me to run and love-tap enemies while maintaining a bit of distance, and recovery time after an attack is very short, allowing for a quick get-away when robots begin their self-destruct cycle.

Most players don't use them, but they'll always occupy two of my six weapon slots. Besides, I look awesome fighting with them in my wonderful red swimming trunks.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Parn on 2007-03-14 17:25 ]</font>

[Callous]

On 2007-03-14 14:36, JAFO22000 wrote:
They also have a large variety of weapons at their disposal...true, only handguns, but you can use spears, axes, sabers, twin sabers, claw, twin claw, dagger, twin daggers, swords, knuckles....Most FF that I know only use 2-3 of the above classes and shirk the rest. Perhaps those knuckles may be useful for something???

You totally missed the point. No, neither knuckles, nor any other melee weapon is going to be useful against melee resistant enemies.

[commonsenseJR]

If being 1-shot by megid drives you crazy, try leveling a job class where you're at risk of death after 1 or 2 hits in many cases. There's nothing quite as fun as trying to get close enough to a tough mob of heavy-hitting monsters to resta/reverser a group of frozen teammates in the red, knowing full well that there's a chance you can get killed in the process.

Resta and strong techs certainly help FTs. But against fast opponents in large numbers that can cancel your techs, it isn't exactly a walk in the park either.

Having played the three major classes, I can say we all have things we're good at and things we're not good at. That sounds like balance to me. The good news is that most of those weaknesses can be covered by a balanced party.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-14 17:29, Callous wrote:

You totally missed the point. No, neither knuckles, nor any other melee weapon is going to be useful against melee resistant enemies.




And no gun will be good against a ranged-resistant enemy, a blight fGs have to put up with.

And to Durraken, actually, you can knockup a room full of enemies, depending on what PA you use and how many there are. And if they're ALL targeting you, then your team sucks.

There seem to be two arguments here: First is that melee have more resistant enemies to put up with--which isn't true to begin with, but then you've got to factor in the fact that we do the most damage to begin with AND the fact that we have a large advantage on anything with more than one hitbox. If something with three hitboxes is melee resistant (like Svaltus) and also resistant to everything else, we still win on damage.

Second seems to be about risk--but the thing about that is, any decent melee should be able to disable most enemies targeting them with stuns / knockups what have you, excepting large mobs and minibosses, which usually have some form of ranged attack anyway.

If you want to do everything, and do it in a mediocre way, play a WT or a FG. If you solo, don't play a fF. Yeah, you could argue that fTs get a bit too much and I'd probably agree, but that doesn't make the game anti-melee.

[Mio]

I can solo De Ragan S with ForteFigher or FiGhunner with ease.
Soloing with ForteGunner is a bit harder, especially with the ranged resistant vahras that heal themself...
Did you know that you can't outrun vahras? and that they outnumber you in most cases? Sure You can kill them with rangers with the right strategy, but that's very hard compared to a fF hitting a svaltus for half damage.

IMHO fF are good at handlign almost all enemyes, they're especially good on the big crowds.
Rangers are very good at boss fights, being onma for the wings or dragons for the grenade launchers.
ForteTechers are unbalanced in that means that they can slolo everything without much effort. Yet, if you really want to do one, then do it, I have one myself, at lvl 67, and even if she's so strong, I prefer playing my ForteGunner, because I anyway never solo.

[Alisha]

i gotta wonder why does fortefighter have nothing special. no ignoring defence no SE's(with the exception of a couple weapons)nothing but damage. if i was to try and compare fortefighter to a job from FFXI you just cant. since no melee damage dealer is that narrow minded. the closest would probally be monk but even monk has moves that ignore defence and one that changes its damage type from physical to magical. if i was to try making the same comparison with fortetecher....then i see white mage and black mage all in one type. i still think psu is way to over simplified.

in pso techsniques were restricted on a per tech basis not just by level why couldnt they do that in psu too? since the new magdoogs seem to be adressing a problem for wartechers may slicers will do the same for fortefighters.

[MaximusLight]

On 2007-03-14 21:40, Alisha wrote:
i gotta wonder why does fortefighter have nothing special. no ignoring defence no SE's(with the exception of a couple weapons)nothing but damage. if i was to try and compare fortefighter to a job from FFXI you just cant. since no melee damage dealer is that narrow minded. the closest would probally be monk but even monk has moves that ignore defence and one that changes its damage type from physical to magical. if i was to try making the same comparison with fortetecher....then i see white mage and black mage all in one type. i still think psu is way to over simplified.

in pso techsniques were restricted on a per tech basis not just by level why couldnt they do that in psu too? since the new magdoogs seem to be adressing a problem for wartechers may slicers will do the same for fortefighters.



they're meat shields not rocket scientists you know like fighter in 8-bit theater they're just there to make pain.

[Alisha]

asking every FF to tank is asking to much. people dont pick FF to take hits for others.

[Zorafim]

Hm, this topic kinda exploded after I left, didn't it?

http://hurricaneurkel.ytmnd.com/

[Tsavo]

On 2007-03-14 21:40, Alisha wrote:
since the new magdoogs seem to be adressing a problem for wartechers may slicers will do the same for fortefighters.


This is what I'm hoping as well. As it stands fF seems to be the only class without an option when their "big guns" don't cut it.

[SolomonGrundy]

To address the issue of teamwork since it came up...

It does not really matter what class you are in larger parties, as long as there is class variety. A lot of why folks are saying "stop crying, just switch tactics" or "just attack from behind" is the logic of a larger party (4+).

To that I say: many of us don't always have larger parties to run with. With are in groups of 3, sometimes 2. So yeah, when one person is a fortefighter, and you want to do "demons above" (with the 23 tengoghs), then it's a real issue.

Soloing takes it to another level entirely, and was best summed up by another poster "Non Wartecker soloing in S rank missions is a myth" While this is not 100% true it's a funny/good rule of thumb.

[Callous]

On 2007-03-14 18:58, Tiyr wrote:And no gun will be good against a ranged-resistant enemy, a blight fGs have to put up with.
fG's have access to one of the best melee weapons available, the spear. They also have access to level 4 SE that will damage no matter what the enemy resistance is. FFs have ... a hand gun ..... with level 10 bullets.

There is no comparison.

[Thrash777]

Cut the chat bout PSO guys, it's off topic and out of place. It's generating too much "heated debate" between people...

[DonMakaveli]

1st of all im sorry if anyone gets offended by this but i gotta say it.. THIS KINDA TOPICS MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When everybody start playing, you never saw rangers like me or forces starting topics like "omfg sega sucks because our damage aint shit and hunters are way better than us".. we just dealt with that, we knew it would be hard, but dreaming that someday we could at least shadow the dmg from hunters..
Now that sega is boostin' us a bit, all the hunter classes be hating cuz sega is taking 'em to the back of the picture.. what's so wrong in giving a lil more power to skilled classes?? i mean im sorry to say this but most hunter classes are skilless, they just bashing enemies around and period.
As i see things, sega is just moderating classes, so that a "dream team" aint just composed by melee units.

P.S. not meant to offend anyone, plus sorry by my english http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[CyarVictor]

This thread is still rolling?


On 2007-03-15 08:12, DonMakaveli wrote:
1st of all im sorry if anyone gets offended by this but i gotta say it.. THIS KINDA TOPICS MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When everybody start playing, you never saw rangers like me or forces starting topics like "omfg sega sucks because our damage aint shit and hunters are way better than us".. we just dealt with that, we knew it would be hard, but dreaming that someday we could at least shadow the dmg from hunters..
Now that sega is boostin' us a bit, all the hunter classes be hating cuz sega is taking 'em to the back of the picture.. what's so wrong in giving a lil more power to skilled classes?? i mean im sorry to say this but most hunter classes are skilless, they just bashing enemies around and period.
As i see things, sega is just moderating classes, so that a "dream team" aint just composed by melee units.

P.S. not meant to offend anyone, plus sorry by my english http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



No worries dude. I don't know why people as hunters are whining. I believe the fF class is fine the way it is. People seem to not understand how to use them. I am happy the way gunners and techers are. I love it when gunners inflict freeze or virus, utilizing traps when need be, and bringing down flyers like Onmagoug so I can assualt them with PA's. The techers, no one should come complain about them unless they are really bad. I know how hard their job is. By hard, I mean running around enemies to heal everyone, making sure buffs are refreshed, and attacking so they may get exp. And they have it bad when it comes to tech leveling. I should know with my force. Plain and simple, if you don't like a certain class, then why play it. If you roll by yourself or in small groups, deal with it. Don't expect you to suddenly get a red carpet rolled out just because you'r rather party by yourself.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-03-15 08:22 ]</font>

[DonMakaveli]

I feel you, as a fortegunner nuttin gives me more pleasure than inflict virus or burn on them jarbas and watch the hunters kick their asses, killin 'em jarbas way easier.. but i mean, if i realize they important in a party, why they cant realize that rangers & forces are that much important? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif, i aint gonna say names but there are hunters whinnin' here, that are the same rangers that scream "WHY AINT THE PROTRANSER TRAPPIN??" "HEAL MEEE IM GOIN NANO!"... i think all classes need each other. new kubara weapons avaiable had no ranger weapons and i aint screaming sega hates us http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-15 08:12, DonMakaveli wrote:
1st of all im sorry if anyone gets offended by this but i gotta say it.. THIS KINDA TOPICS MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When everybody start playing, you never saw rangers like me or forces starting topics like "omfg sega sucks because our damage aint shit and hunters are way better than us".. we just dealt with that, we knew it would be hard, but dreaming that someday we could at least shadow the dmg from hunters...



Wait? what? Man I know I have an active imagination but I know I'm not delusional... there were tons of threads complaining about how this or that sucked about rangers and forces.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-03-14 21:43, MaximusLight wrote:

On 2007-03-14 21:40, Alisha wrote:
i gotta wonder why does fortefighter have nothing special. no ignoring defence no SE's(with the exception of a couple weapons)nothing but damage. if i was to try and compare fortefighter to a job from FFXI you just cant. since no melee damage dealer is that narrow minded. the closest would probally be monk but even monk has moves that ignore defence and one that changes its damage type from physical to magical. if i was to try making the same comparison with fortetecher....then i see white mage and black mage all in one type. i still think psu is way to over simplified.

in pso techsniques were restricted on a per tech basis not just by level why couldnt they do that in psu too? since the new magdoogs seem to be adressing a problem for wartechers may slicers will do the same for fortefighters.



they're meat shields not rocket scientists you know like fighter in 8-bit theater they're just there to make pain.



yeah, but Fortefighters aren't a bunch of big, stupid strong guys who are all "HULK SMASH!" either, were skilled martial artists.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-15 05:55, Callous wrote:

On 2007-03-14 18:58, Tiyr wrote:And no gun will be good against a ranged-resistant enemy, a blight fGs have to put up with.
fG's have access to one of the best melee weapons available, the spear. They also have access to level 4 SE that will damage no matter what the enemy resistance is. FFs have ... a hand gun ..... with level 10 bullets.

There is no comparison.



There are a lot of things that are immune to various SEs, level four or not, and in many cases you can spend a whole fight plinking away and not land an SE. If you're in a decent group, a lot of the time thing will be dead before your SE ever hits. They're great, yes, but try landing one on the Gol Dolva, among other things.

Spear with anemic ATP and the first two swings on Dus Daggas is not too terribly much better than a pistol when you've got the best ATP in the game, unless you factor in 50% elemental weapons. And really, the problem there is that the stupid elemental %s are far too good, both on weapons and armor...but that's a whole other discussion.

And last, even when you can't do much damage, YOU HAVE CROWD CONTROL. No one wants to touch this point, but even when you can't hurt things, you can knock them down, stun them, stagger them, and generally make life easier for the people who CAN. I'm sorry if that's not what you WANT to be doing, but you can't pretend it doesn't make you valuable to your group.

[Sexy_Raine]

Enemy resistances are lame a attempt to emphasize a party of variety classes. Sega's variety aspect fails, as rangers can pretty much kill any enemy that is bullet resistant with status effects. Let a group of all fortegunners take on Grove S/ Endrum S and you'll know what I mean.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-03-15 08:49 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

Tiyr... people keep on actually answering you on that. The fact is you are going to get hit, blocked, or miss and leave yourself open more often than not when you are trying to help out others with a stun or a flinch.

More often than not even a skilled hunter will make their way to a mob only to get one hit in before getting blasted away. You simply can't do damage without taking damage...and while that is part of the job...when you're throwing it's part of your job to take hits for people and grab attention...well then there shouldn't be attacks that can hit you across the room or prevent you from doing damage.

In fact the only argument that anyone has said for Forces to have high HP at all is for them healing and curing status ailments... but most don't heal and just as few use status cure spells...and even if they do you are say "hunters are bait for forces...why would a force want a hunter with them?"

[-Rune-]

This thread is still going... ._. this has been like a 2-3? day argument now. Give it a rest already, it's obvious no one is gonna change their opinion, why not invest these arguments into more funner topics to discuss... u_u

[Magician]

We aren't close to the endgame yet. I believe that when the time comes for s rank armor and units a hunter's melee damage will become negligible. I'm fairly certain that the items like the unreleased Whitill Wing and other items that vastly boost stamina will act very well against all SEs (sans megid), negating burn and dambarta especially. Hunters may well be the gods of the endgame here.

But until then, we will continue to struggle with melee resistant enemies, and fork out outrageous sums of meseta in an effort to increase our weapons element % (rangers and forces have it so cheap and easy on the frontend cost). We are meat shields, born and raised. We draw a good deal of enemy hate and our flinch and knockback abilities are our gift the to party, don't get pissy at a hunter for doing their job. However, if a hunter can't dodge for a lick then the hate is justified; there are alot of tactless hunters out there.

Any hunter that cries about a force not healing enough doesn't know how to use a mate; forces, don't take those whiney hunters' crap, tell them to step out and buy some mates, that's what the lobbybots are for.

Alright, I'm done...for now.

Love this game.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-15 09:05, DurakkenX wrote:
Tiyr... people keep on actually answering you on that. The fact is you are going to get hit, blocked, or miss and leave yourself open more often than not when you are trying to help out others with a stun or a flinch.

More often than not even a skilled hunter will make their way to a mob only to get one hit in before getting blasted away. You simply can't do damage without taking damage...and while that is part of the job...when you're throwing it's part of your job to take hits for people and grab attention...well then there shouldn't be attacks that can hit you across the room or prevent you from doing damage.



For someone who's played this game and PSO as much as you have, I don't know how you can say that with a straight face. If you don't think knocking over things you do low damage against, like Jusnaguns, Tengohgs, or even the ever-annoying Gaozorans is helpful and not that hard, I don't think there's much we can say to each other at this point.

I'm not saying it's necessarily your job to take damage for others, but you can prevent it. And you can do it without getting yourself killed. As long as your force isn't a moron and you're willing to use the occasional trimate, you should be fine. Use the PAs that have almost instant knockup on enemies that you're trying to CC--Rising Crush, Rising Strike, Shunbu-Shouren-Zan, just to name a few.




In fact the only argument that anyone has said for Forces to have high HP at all is for them healing and curing status ailments... but most don't heal and just as few use status cure spells...and even if they do you are say "hunters are bait for forces...why would a force want a hunter with them?"



Forces don't have high HP or defense...nor should they. Look, I won't argue that forces aren't a bit broken (I don't get the need for level 30 bullets more than anyone else) but I don't think that means that hunters have anything wrong with them.

And as for the bait thing...yes, hunters are bait for things that forces can hurt but hunters don't do much against. And even then, "bait" isn't even what I'd say or how I'd play it. Knocking down fast moving things like Go Vahras is very useful to force who'd otherwise get eviscerated by them. Although in that case you'll probably be outdamaging them as well.

Forces that don't heal when necessary are bad forces. That's no more a valid argument than saying fighgunners are useless because of the ones that spam tornado dance on everything.

[Mewnie]

I just find I'm forced to use tris and antis a LOT. While the forces spam diga etc etc.

[McLaughlin]

On 2007-03-15 08:43, Tiyr wrote:
And last, even when you can't do much damage, YOU HAVE CROWD CONTROL. No one wants to touch this point, but even when you can't hurt things, you can knock them down, stun them, stagger them, and generally make life easier for the people who CAN. I'm sorry if that's not what you WANT to be doing, but you can't pretend it doesn't make you valuable to your group.



The only problem with that is that Forces bitch at us when we knock things up/away because we wreck their Radiga/Rabarta cluster.

I don't mind doing it, hell I have Tornado Dance and Tornado Break. All the Forces want us to do is sit their and "take one for the team."

[Reginaldo]

Things got harder? Didn't notice.

[Tiyr]

So...the real problem then is that forces in pick up groups are asshats?

I was pretty sure that was always the case. Play with forces who don't suck.

[Mewnie]

On 2007-03-15 09:43, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
I don't mind doing it, hell I have Tornado Dance and Tornado Break. All the Forces want us to do is sit their and "take one for the team."


Yeah, seems to be the sentiment among most Forces. There are exceptions, but most are to busy spamming damage techs to be bothered to, you know, support us when we need it.

[Mewnie]

On 2007-03-15 09:52, Tiyr wrote:
So...the real problem then is that forces in pick up groups are asshats?

I was pretty sure that was always the case. Play with forces who don't suck.



Where are they? Oh yes, soloing.

[Tiyr]

So what would your solution to that be? Gimp forces so they can't play without hunters?

I dunno, but I've never had much luck playing with random meatballs in ANY group based game like this. Too many people are too stupid.

[DurakkenX]

You're right Hunter jobs are NOT broken...It's Forces and Mobs and yes they should be readjusted.

But hey we're still only half of the job cap and 4/10 of the max cap...

[Akaimizu]

I think the real meat of all of these topics is really people shouting. "A little help here.....please!!"

That's what it really comes down to, doesn't it? The more I read this topic, it seems to be less about balance issues, and more about the issue of people working together.

I don't mind issues of balance, but it only gets bad when people get enough to start believing that nobody else, in the party is needed.

I've had enough of that simulation in PSO version 1. Back when the Hunters were balanced over forces. The mentality quickly became selfish enough that they simply did nothing but perform a Leroy Jenkins. They run way up ahead, kill things quick, move ahead. All the while the force is chasing behind them, in order to help out.

Version 2 came out, and things were rebalanced a little. Online, the hunters still pretty much had the gung-ho *no force needed* mentality and still carried over that thought, even with a little bit of Force tech exclusion. (The ones hunters cared about, still with them).

As a non-vengeful force, I decided to become a Buff/debuff mage, in which I could do all my stuff while the hunters stopped to fight (the only time I could do so), and gain experience from the debuffs. I avoided the spamming of Rafoie because it can be easily used as a vengeful tool to steal kills before a tag.

People want people who can scratch their back... and that's what player cards are for. You find someone helpful, you trade it. They probably will remain helpful the next time you see them. Building a good posse is part of the game. People get so jaded with unhelpful people that they seem to want to redesign themselves as a force of nature that requires no aid. Good connections get you the help you need, which both makes you kick more butt together, and eases your work and mission cost.

The little unheard voice still sounds.. It's been repeated before, but I like to coin the phrase that fixes pretty much everything here.

"We're all in this together.....I'm pullin' for ya. Keep your stick on the ice!" -- Red Green.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-15 10:18 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

I literally unequipped my weapon and sat down a short way away from mobs one time after waiting for a force to heal me because it was well within his ability to do and he was doing nothing else save for cast a debuff spell over and over again and it still took him a good 3 or 4 minutes before he realized i had sat down and stopped fighting.

[Alisha]

another possible solution is to add SE's to skills. but dont step on rangers toes by giving them burn and infect instead give some of the more rare status effects like stun,poison and sleep. ive been thinking about this because FFXI has a similar situation where theres more physical resistant enemies then magical resistant ones. the only ones i recall being resistant to magic are pots and Kirin. the difference is in ffxi even if you cant do much melee damage you can make a skill chain to help mages do more damage. so maybee some SE that reduces a monsters resistance to various elements to help create a more symbiotic relationship between the 3 main types. not that i think about it its kinda bizare that theres deband but nothing similar for mst.



going offtopic a bit. pso was easy huh? *remembers her first horrifying trip to the seabed* cant think of many things in psu that match the horror of being stuck in a hallway with a delbiter when nobody has enough hp to survive it's charge. or getting blast from behind by a sinow zoa.

[RadiantLegend]

Ragnus stump.

;_; took me a few lvs to survive it.

<_< jogiri has poison.

[Jey]

Most gunners (including me) would shoot you the middle finger for putting poison on a mob when trying to land burn or virus. Jogiri is hella annoying for that! but anyway...

I switched from GT/FG to Fortefighter for a change of pace, and while I can only speak about Lab S2 right now, it's fun laying the smack on most everything, but man is it frustrating trying to keep docile a mob that has 1 target, takes half melee damage, can turn like 180 degrees while casting a Dambarta that has like 75% freeze chance, and moves and turns like a top. Augh. While I try to play as independently as I can, there's many times nothing you can do when you get a megid in the back...

And don't tell me to get ice armor for freeze... I get burned very often in Fire24% armor by lv10 robots when their explosions crit and do 1 damage. It's stupid.

Anyway. Can't wait to try mobs where I have no choice but to shoot at with my Python, lol.

And FFXI is a horrible example to use to compare melee and mages - FFXI forces dependency on players to gain xp, which is why there is such a fierce determination to find ways to solo. When someone with a parser realized that melee burning tp could get xp much faster and easier than melee setting up skillchains, the black mages looked for places to solo until cap, while SE kept making the fun NMs gravity/stun/sleep/nuke-resistant (*stares at Beseiged*)

In PSU, each job just has glaring weaknesses that are simply annoying, yet don't cripple your gameplay. fFs can't shoot well, FGs lack lv30 bullets, forces lack hp/defense and a good way of killing magic-resistant large mobs, gunners lack defense and a good way of killing mobs short of SEs, guntechers get annoyed by lv10 techs, wartechers get annoyed by lack of ATP and lv20 skills, blahblah.

Be glad there aren't mobs that are flat-out immune to melee/ranged/technic, like there are in FFXI short of really hardcore gear.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jey on 2007-03-15 11:25 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

A thought about Force "bad dfp" They have the ability to buff, and debuff. Their armor (the senba series) @ 6* and above, tends to 20% higher DFP than "hunter" armor.

A side note about PSO hunters. They had special abilities in thier weapons. Chainsawd - hunter staple. For "status effects" you could BUY a 50% hit weapon in the shop for low grade effects. Common 9* rares could also be found with hit. Heck, if you were a andriod, you had traps built in with 100% guaranteed Freeze and confuse for free, AND HP regen.

Hunters in PSO > Hunters in PSU.

The only reason I bring this up is because S rank weapons have not yet been released. Perhaps we will see balancing if these S rank weapons can deliver Status, or have other special abilities.

[DonMakaveli]

i can only say one thing about this by now.. YA'LL STOP CRYING

[XDeviousX]

People complain too much on this board. First forces complain about being worse class, then people complain humans and newmans don't get enough (although more then 15 special weapons for them isn't "nothing") then people complain about fighgunners using tornado dance, and now fortefighters are complaining about melee damage? Seriously! why doesn't Sega just make everything extra simple and just give you everything you've ever wanted, not just in the game, but irl as well...

As for Hives owning people, the people I game with have no problems doing hive runs and I can solo hives A in 30 mins and hives S in 45 which is long but I only average using 2 or 3 scapes at most. These games aren't made for you to solo easy or at all. the fact that you can is by skill or determination. this game is built for ALL classes to excel in different areas so yuo can complete mission and GAIN mesta, xp, and mp. You "can" solo at the cost of paying more money then you make. PSO was too easy with a team and not that hard solo where as PSU is hard with a team and even worse solo... Challenges are fun.

Last, anyone that complains that a lot of enemies that are melee resistant spit megid/barta/poison etc. are you dense? IF THEY ARE MELEE RESISTANT THAT MEANS YOU SHOULD TRY ANOTHER TACTIC!!! Don't get close!!!!! Stay back and use a gun for goodness sakes! Fortefighters get guns too and a nice atp boost to make them work when lvled right!!! If you see an enemy that is tech resistant and cast lightning at ranged targets do you think forces would sit back and continue to cast while getting lightning spiked????!!???

[ljkkjlcm9]

It really does boil down to teamwork. I mean, I charge in and take damage as a hunter focused class all the time. If I get low on health and can run out of the group of enemies, I do so. As a Fighgunner I may switch to guns and start shooting them waiting for a Force. It only upsets me when I do that for minutes at a time in yellow health and they don't bother to even try and heal me. If I really want to melee again, I'll just heal myself.

But what really irks me about forces, is when a Beast Nano's. No matter what form he is, he'll be doing more damage than anyone at that point. We all know this to be true. You may find it a pain or whatever, but watch their health and keep them alive. I've played as a force, and whenever someone Nano'd I immediately focused on supporting them #1. They can't heal themselves, so don't blame them when they die.

THE JACKEL

[Alisha]

the problem with teamwork is that its cramed down your throat and there are people like me that dont like the feeling of helplessness brought on by needing to depend on someone else.


Edit:i've seen 2 cases of s-rank weapons adding SE's with regular and PA attacks. both of them are dual claws one adds infection the other freezes.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-03-15 19:47 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I understand how you feel Alisha, teamwork may be a good thing sometimes, but I don't want to take it to the extreme, *cough*Bruce's Dungeon*cough*.

[l0c0dantes]

You can stand to be weaker, Forces are a pure glass cannon.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-03-15 10:41, Alisha wrote:
going offtopic a bit. pso was easy huh? *remembers her first horrifying trip to the seabed* cant think of many things in psu that match the horror of being stuck in a hallway with a delbiter when nobody has enough hp to survive it's charge. or getting blast from behind by a sinow zoa.



We were talking about PSO v1 >.>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-15 13:33, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
It really does boil down to teamwork. I mean, I charge in and take damage as a hunter focused class all the time. If I get low on health and can run out of the group of enemies, I do so. As a Fighgunner I may switch to guns and start shooting them waiting for a Force. It only upsets me when I do that for minutes at a time in yellow health and they don't bother to even try and heal me. If I really want to melee again, I'll just heal myself.

But what really irks me about forces, is when a Beast Nano's. No matter what form he is, he'll be doing more damage than anyone at that point. We all know this to be true. You may find it a pain or whatever, but watch their health and keep them alive. I've played as a force, and whenever someone Nano'd I immediately focused on supporting them #1. They can't heal themselves, so don't blame them when they die.

THE JACKEL



Oh please. There is a video in another topic on page 1 of a level 80 Fortetecher Soloing an S2 Mission (Endrum, I believe). He buffs, and rolls in with Gidiga, dropping 800+ damage per shot.

The player does not even debuff the enemies, and when the deband runs out, it is not renewed.

Funny, there is no video of a Fortefighter doing this same thing. I can Solo The Dragon on S difficulty at level 62, but that's 18 mission points (a joke), and I dare say any Fortetecher who is level 60 could do the same with less problems.

[Umberger]

That's Cherry on Lab Recovery S2, and there's absolutely no point in debuffing enemies when you use spells (unless you use Jellen so they deal less to you or something).

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-16 00:24, Umberger wrote:
That's Cherry on Lab Recovery S2, and there's absolutely no point in debuffing enemies when you use spells (unless you use Jellen so they deal less to you or something).



Right - and jellen would the debuff I was thinking about. Cherry also cast all 4 buffs...which was...odd. I undestand how to play a pure casting force.

[Konstanse_Xx]

I switched from GT to Figh to WT, and I have to say Figh is the easiest class, I'm going Fortefighter when I max it, if you keep getting owned soloing just do what I do, just use a 45X PM o.o

I use guns for melee resistant, and you're a specialty class, you concentrate in an area dude, and I'm sure no party will turn down a melee class that's good, I know I was wanted much in Bruce C and B missions for being simply a CAST Fighgunner XD

I have a friend who solos VoC and LL on S as a Fortefighter, and he's only level 49, just prepare accordingly, you say that Rangers and Forces have it easy, but realise that they have to level those skills up for them to own, we just slip on a new weapon, and put our old PA to it.

Sure, Melee classes have it more difficult money wise, but put into consideration that the other classes have to spend god knows how much time raising the PA's of the element to 11 or 21 to get the proper elemental % to be REAL good, whilst we as hunters don't need to do that...(EDIT: I've seen some people complain about that, so I just assume this, forgive me if I'm wrong.


I'm almost positive on HIVE S, Ft's would love to have a nice Fighgunner/Wartecher/Fortefighter to stop those Bel Pannons/Deljabans from whacking them.

And Megid? Rofl, it's a joke in this game, I like it now though XD, it's like Russian Roulette.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Konstanse_Xx on 2007-03-16 05:55 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-03-16 00:00, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Oh please. There is a video in another topic on page 1 of a level 80 Fortetecher Soloing an S2 Mission (Endrum, I believe). He buffs, and rolls in with Gidiga, dropping 800+ damage per shot.

The player does not even debuff the enemies, and when the deband runs out, it is not renewed.

Funny, there is no video of a Fortefighter doing this same thing. I can Solo The Dragon on S difficulty at level 62, but that's 18 mission points (a joke), and I dare say any Fortetecher who is level 60 could do the same with less problems.


Is that why I Solo Linear Line S2 as a level 64 fighgunner 5? Anyone can solo if they know what they're doing, just some classes it's far easier to know what to do than others.

THE JACKEL

[Tiyr]

On 2007-03-16 00:24, Umberger wrote:
That's Cherry on Lab Recovery S2, and there's absolutely no point in debuffing enemies when you use spells (unless you use Jellen so they deal less to you or something).


Lab Recovery's only level eighty. The only bar from anyone soloing the hell out of that would be mizura--get a bugless map and anyone can solo it.

I've soloed Mad Beasts S, and that's level 90. I'd love to see how long it takes a force to down the three Gol Dolvas.

[SolomonGrundy]

Is that why I Solo Linear Line S2 as a level 64 fighgunner 5? Anyone can solo if they know what they're doing, just some classes it's far easier to know what to do than others.

THE JACKEL



oh really now? I'm level 62, and Fortefighter 5/Figunner 3 so it should be just as easy for me to solo "S". So enlighten me - how do you NOT get killed by megids there? Because I was killed 4 times by it.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-03-16 14:10, SolomonGrundy wrote:


Is that why I Solo Linear Line S2 as a level 64 fighgunner 5? Anyone can solo if they know what they're doing, just some classes it's far easier to know what to do than others.

THE JACKEL



oh really now? I'm level 62, and Fortefighter 5/Figunner 3 so it should be just as easy for me to solo "S". So enlighten me - how do you NOT get killed by megids there? Because I was killed 4 times by it.


Never said I didn't die, but that's what Scapes are for. I don't even take damage from most attacks on regular S rank there. Plus as a Fighgunner, I lower the defense with Mayalee hit, and often try and hit with other status before running in there, and it's easy to avoid far away. Plus knocking large crowds of them over with Tornado Dance is quite helpful.

THE JACKEL

[VanHalen]

On 2007-03-16 14:10, SolomonGrundy wrote:


Is that why I Solo Linear Line S2 as a level 64 fighgunner 5? Anyone can solo if they know what they're doing, just some classes it's far easier to know what to do than others.

THE JACKEL



oh really now? I'm level 62, and Fortefighter 5/Figunner 3 so it should be just as easy for me to solo "S". So enlighten me - how do you NOT get killed by megids there? Because I was killed 4 times by it.



Be a newman with dark armor

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-16 14:18, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:

On 2007-03-16 14:10, SolomonGrundy wrote:


Is that why I Solo Linear Line S2 as a level 64 fighgunner 5? Anyone can solo if they know what they're doing, just some classes it's far easier to know what to do than others.

THE JACKEL



oh really now? I'm level 62, and Fortefighter 5/Figunner 3 so it should be just as easy for me to solo "S". So enlighten me - how do you NOT get killed by megids there? Because I was killed 4 times by it.


Never said I didn't die, but that's what Scapes are for. I don't even take damage from most attacks on regular S rank there. Plus as a Fighgunner, I lower the defense with Mayalee hit, and often try and hit with other status before running in there, and it's easy to avoid far away. Plus knocking large crowds of them over with Tornado Dance is quite helpful.

THE JACKEL



ok, so...you suggest:
1. using double saber with it's ultimate art
2. twin handguns with it's ultimate art
3. you don't get hurt by thier attacks? Unpossible. As a fortefighter with 24% dark armor and the rainbow unit I still take Plenty. ...do you have some uber 50% A rank armor?

Also, using scapes to save you from death is costly. 4 scapes = 8K or more

[VanHalen]

Well you have to take into account that Beast have low MST.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-03-16 14:23, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-03-16 14:18, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:

On 2007-03-16 14:10, SolomonGrundy wrote:


Is that why I Solo Linear Line S2 as a level 64 fighgunner 5? Anyone can solo if they know what they're doing, just some classes it's far easier to know what to do than others.

THE JACKEL



oh really now? I'm level 62, and Fortefighter 5/Figunner 3 so it should be just as easy for me to solo "S". So enlighten me - how do you NOT get killed by megids there? Because I was killed 4 times by it.


Never said I didn't die, but that's what Scapes are for. I don't even take damage from most attacks on regular S rank there. Plus as a Fighgunner, I lower the defense with Mayalee hit, and often try and hit with other status before running in there, and it's easy to avoid far away. Plus knocking large crowds of them over with Tornado Dance is quite helpful.

THE JACKEL



ok, so...you suggest:
1. using double saber with it's ultimate art
2. twin handguns with it's ultimate art
3. you don't get hurt by thier attacks? Unpossible. As a fortefighter with 24% dark armor and the rainbow unit I still take Plenty. ...do you have some uber 50% A rank armor?

Also, using scapes to save you from death is costly. 4 scapes = 8K or more


I suggest using a weapon to knock them over, the fist dash punch would work, or assault crush 21+

You don't have to lower their defense, but it's nice
Plus doing the story missions and getting S rank is easy, and via that you could easily get the twin handgun Ultimate art

I have a 44% Crimson Line dark.
4 scapes = 8k if you die, but, you get 4600 meseta as a reward and picking up stuff will net you more than 8k if you solo. I don't do it for money, I do it for PA frags and for items. It's how I've gotten my two really good Crea Doubles.

As I said, it all boils down to knowing what you're doing. Before this last update I had solo'd every mission on the hardest level (S) and received an S rank. Every single one. It was over a period of time, but I did. I didn't gain many levels because soloing takes time, but I still did it.

THE JACKEL

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2007-03-16 14:29 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

As I said, it all boils down to knowing what you're doing. Before this last update I had solo'd every mission on the hardest level (S) and received an S rank. Every single one. It was over a period of time, but I did. I didn't gain many levels because soloing takes time, but I still did it.

THE JACKEL




with 10 scapes I could solo most missions (maybe not the bees. I still have no idea how to defeat them as a fortefighter)

But you've more than made my point. ForteFighters have issues.

[VanHalen]

To defeat bees as a Fortefighter use knuckles since the have the highest accuracy.

[DavidNel]

I don't see a problem with hunters... Also, if you don't like your class, you are free to change! That's the beauty of PSU. As a figunner, I don't seem to have many problems. What I found was I'mortant was not using dual melee weapons. They do attack fast and for a lot of damage, but you have to be too close to use them. Even a fortefighter can use handguns... SO USE THEM! If you can get your shots up to a high enough level you can freez the enemy and then attack them. Works great.

Also, make sure you're using the right photons. They help so much... Neutral weapons don't cut it passed B ranked missions.

[SolomonGrundy]

I love you, DavidNel, such great advice
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Don't use neutral photons you say?

[VanHalen]

Idk......my neutral dagger got me out of alot of sticky situations on S missions.

[Alisha]

neutral weapons fail big time. and should never be used except on other things that are neutral,or if you are leveling pa's. i wouldnt be opposed to people using neutral armor though. you lose a lot of damage going neutral. can you imagine hitting a fire element tengough with 50% ice axe? the pa damage would be orgasmic too! a lvl 100 beast has over 1k atp and so does ank tomaho.

[Schubalts]

Don't start ragging on neutral weapons if you have ever played a human character or a hybrid class.

[Alisha]

thats no excuse preparation is half the battle. theres no point im making wartechers bad situation even worse by using green weapons.

[Schubalts]

Using weapons on a monster of the same element would make it worse, as there would be a damage penalty. Non-elemental weapons are the basic values, without a penalty or bonus. You don't lose anything with non-elemental, and you don't gain anything, but they are nowhere near being bad weapons.

This is beginning to feel like Rappelz all over again...

[Alisha]

i never use green weapons except early on till i amass a collection of elemental weapons. i stand by my opinion that green weapons are gimp.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-03-16 22:31 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

grinded green weapons can be effective, and certainlt will shine in the PP departmnet.


I'll grind the 6* GRM green spear all day. If I get one up to +5 or +6 there is a sginificant jump in PP from +1. And it drops in Parum S runs

[Soukosa]

If you have high ATP, even a lower percent (like 20% or so) will outdo any sane grinds on weapons. Since even 20% more of the total ATP you have with the weapon is likely to be much greater increase than the amount of ATP you gained from the grind.

[creativehope]

After reading through all 16 pages of this forum, and taking in all accounts of whats been said and what issues people have with the said named class, I have to wonder. Have you tried other classes? As of now I have tried all three of the basic classes and only four of the advanced classes, and personally I don't see anything wrong with the way things are built. Presently I play with my Fortetecher and Fighgunner and I have an easy time with both. but there are some things that were said that I cannot agree with. First off being that the Fortefighter or melee classes in general get screwed. I couldn't disagree with you more on that. My fighgunner does more than enough damage with her melee attacks against any kind of enemy. And she has enough Atp dfp and hp to take a critical or two without healing. There is nothing wrong with a class that does good damage and can easily bat everyone away if the fighting gets to tough. Also if you haven't learned to dodge or strafe before an attack then there isnt much help for you. Secondly about forces being too uber powerful and having lvl 30 bullet skills. If you havent played as a force then you wouldn't understand. especially if you havent played as a force with a bad group of fortefighters and the like.

#1 a force is very weak physically. if we go in to do what you do we die, plain and simple, so you cant expect us to do that. So it would seem that we also cannot go into a heated battle to heal you. If you want a force to use resta on you. then please do that force a favor and seek the him or her out or at least meet that force halfway, come to some agreement or somethingIf you have a clan or guild then work these issues out with your force. If you do not have a clan or guild then you may want to reconsider what you are doing wrong.

#2 As a force being in a bad group that does not take the forces job into consideration, what does this group do. As I'm sitting there casting resta to heal you because you feel that you must go into battle headstrong and take an enemies attack head on. You defeat said named enemy before I can even land a hit. This has happened on many occasions. once I didnt get a single experience point until we made it to onmagoug. but everyone always had full health and the buffs were always on time, maybe the occasional misfire but hey I'm only human. just because you Pa isnt uber powerful that one time doesnt make me a bad force. yet at the same time you dont understand that if I cant attack the enemy then I gain no exp which means I do not gain lvls which in the end means you have no force to heal you later on because that poor force is still lvl 45 and you are 10k away from 60. What most hunters fail to realize is that. being a good force is indeed a drawback and bad parties leaves a bad taste in your mouth. So a lot of forces spam diga only because of those parties that taught them that if you are going to make it you have to look out for you first. If you want your force to heal you then try sharing the exp. Trust me forces like it just as much as you do.

#3 I dont care what enemies stand before you, Hunters and melee personnel lay them to wasteI may cause 2400-2600 casting diga on a critical hit, but from what I've seen ts nothing compared to fortefighters. I am a lvl72 fortetecher right now. and My friend who is a lvl 66 fortefighter clearly outclasses me in the damage ratio. He does 600+ damager per hit at the normal combo and 800+ for a Pa. plus witth the added bonus of knockdowns and things he can keep the combo going resulting in about 12 hit here (thats just an estimate) so lets see 2600 < 600x12=7200. for those of you who look at numbers there is what could be dealt. I dont see how one could miss such staggering figures. but to each his own I guess.

#4 something else that has bothered me, Megid! how can you complain that its a bad thing against hunters. Wait let me rephrase that. How can you make it sound like its only bad for hunters. Grnted rangers have it easier because of the ability to move while firing score one for rangers whoopty freaking doo!!. Forces have it just as bad if not worst. we are all subjected to about the same probabilty of death if megid hits us. Hunters are in trouble if Megid is cast during a combo or Pa. Guess what So are forces. There have been numerous times where I've been hit by Megid and killed while trying to cast a spell at another Jarba or save a teamate of mine. did I complain, no. Why? because I was smart enough to bring scapes. oh and guess what. while you are complaining about megid killing you. your newman force friend is over there suffering the same fate. Death by Megid. No one is safe from it. but thats the beauty of it. An attack so simple yet you havent figured a way aroung it. and its not 100% guaranteed So its not like you cant take a megid or 2 and if you cant then bring scapes, the simple solution.

#5 to complain that we sit back and spam diga is kinda sad also. It may seem cheezy and I admit its not the best approach to things. but you have 2000 hp here and you seem to have trouble I barely have 1000 if I'm lucky and I have the lowest dfp So cut me some slack. one shot and I'm done and then you would want to complain because I was dumb enough to get hi by an attack that would kill me. but if I stay far enough away from the enemy and give myself a fighting chance them I am wrong. I dont see the logic in this but obviously I'm supposed to take that attack in stride and keep going as if nothing happened. yeah right. Once I did the holy relics mission on s and at the boss the dog looking creature ran me over for an instant ko all the hunter complainted that I should get better armor. Hello My dfp is only 50 i cant equip the same armor that you do I only have 800 hp he hits for 1000 not very good odds on my end. Not everyone is on the same paying field in stats some just have things easier than others in certain situations.

Those who complain about some of the weapons that Forces get really need to sit and look at what a force has to work with. Forces can barely survive on the battle field as it is oh and did we forget that every single weapon in our arsenal uses pp. we have no regular attacks our fast weapons drain quickly and our longer lasting weapons do no better on longer missions. So allow us to have the bow. Now I understand that the bow would be an uber powerful weapon in the hands of a fighgunner. but you have to understand that if you had said named weapon. would you be any better than any force that spams diga. as a matter of fact. you would be worst. you would probably take exp from your party members and thats always a bad thing. plus even though the Bow negates armor. look who's using them..... You guessed it, forces. Why. because we have the lowest atp in the game. its not like its a 1 hit kill for us. Hell I'mhard pressed to do that on a c rank mission sometimes.So for everyone that wishes to complain about us having the bow, I ask why? Is it because you want to spam with a bow like the forces you hate so much spam with diga. Cause if so then why are you arguing that its wrong when you want to do the same thing witha n even cheaper weapon.

I notice a lot of class bashing in this forum sadly enough its from those who naturally depend on said named classes that they bash. This has been said before. this is a team effort. If you are mad that you cant solo that S2 mission and make 18k then you have chosen the wrong game to play. and I bet that any class can solo an mission with patients, understanding, and determination. It shouldnt be too hard to figure out. So before you go and bash a css saying that either they are too powerful or that this game is anti-hunter understand that the force or ranger that you witness soloing an S2 run put a lot of time and effort into learning how to do this. this force or ranger didnt just go in on there first try and completed S2 without dying. Scapes were used trust me.

This game is meant to be played with people you trust. people who you've worked out a certain plan withyou understand them, they understand you. you work together you get things done and you move on in your PSU life simple as that

I know this was a little long winded but after reading the forum and trying to undertastand whats the real issue here it seems to me that if you cant make it then either you have a bad team or no team at all. and thats what you need in any give situation on this game

[Alisha]

On 2007-03-17 02:27, SolomonGrundy wrote:
grinded green weapons can be effective, and certainlt will shine in the PP departmnet.


I'll grind the 6* GRM green spear all day. If I get one up to +5 or +6 there is a sginificant jump in PP from +1. And it drops in Parum S runs



green spears are massive fail.
hello lets take the 3rd strongest melee weapon and NOT put an element on it.....

the 6 star GRM spear has 450 base atp. even if you only have 20% that bumps you up to 540 atp and that assumes percents are only added to weapon atp. for a green berdys to have that much atp it would have to be ground to at least +7. and even thats not right because i'm pretty sure you are awarded an additional bonus for attacking with an opposing element. plus theres nothing stopping you from grinding an elemented spear to at least +3 safely.

berdys+3 = 493 atp +20% element = 591 atp

for a green spear to match that it has to be grinded to +10 have fun with that.

[Mio]

the element % is stronger than you think Alisha. It account also your base ATP before the damage increase

[Shiro_Ryuu]

oh, I thought it measured more on how many points of damage you do. like if you normally do like 100 dmg each hit, and u use a 25% weapon, I thought it would do like 125 dmg each hit.

[Mio]

yeah Shiro you can say that

[Soukosa]

Going by the current damage formula we have, the percentage would be applied to the total ATP (base, weapon, unit, armor, etc) before the target's DFP is taken into account.

[imfanboy]

On 2007-03-17 21:30, Mio wrote:
the element % is stronger than you think Alisha. It account also your base ATP before the damage increase




Actually, it's even stronger than that, from what I've tested.

Weapon damage goes: (Base ATP + Weapon Att.) * PA damage % * elemental %.

I've never felt 'gimped' as a fortefighter, wartecher, or figunner, because I UNDERSTAND the game, don't try to limit myself to one weapon type, and always bring plenty of proper elemental % weapons to any area we're going to - it's a point of annoyance for my friends that I'm always, "What area are we going to? OK, I've gotta go back to my room."

Or maybe they like it because it shows that I know what I'm doing - who knows? I can't read their minds.

[Mewnie]

Yeah, if you enjoy synthing around fifty attempts to get a nice % weapon.

I never get above 12% X3

I don't have a lot of time to play, so I'm not goign to spend what little I have farming, farming, farming. farming.

[iono]

I'm just going to chime in, post about something 8 pages ago where I stopped reading and then run fleeing into the night but ok!

I definitely think Fortefighters are fun and not gimp. But I do agree that forces shouldn't be so strong with the guns. ;-; And also, I agree that the monsters in PSU feel "cheap" compared to PSO. I know I know, monsters in PSU are "smarter" but "smarter" isn't always more fun. I've got no problem with a difficult game so don't go there either! But in PSU we have worms who aren't a threat, they just burrow and take a long time to kill. Bugs don't really even do a lot of damage most of the time, they just .... take forever. A lot of the regular monsters knock you around as their regular hits but Sega made them in such a way that you can't dodge half of them without running 3/4 of the time to get a clean shot. The crocodiles that no one even fights because Moatoob desert is too annoying + too low reward have a crazy turning ability while they fire their Foie so it's just about impossible to dodge once they lock on. There is megid too of course but that's actually kinda predictable from everything ~except~ Deljabans or w/e they are called. I can go on forever but I think you see what I'm saying!

Whereas in PSO even if they were dumb as rocks, there was a fun factor in being able to always time your swings to get through the delsaber's impossible defense (you could do it every time once you got used to it), or knowing exactly when the lilly was going to spit megid without even having it on screen and dodging at the last second. I used to be able to use a polearm in VH ruins in the original PSO and never get hit because soft-hard-hard+1 step back attacks, if you were VERY exact with the timing, could keep the monsters knocked back. It's not the kind of thing you can just pick up and do instantly, it takes hours of trying to learn it. I'm around 900 hours? I think, I dont check and I'm still finding PSU monsters to be full of cheapshot. Yes, of course it was easy to just power through with uber 1337 gear in PSO, but that's not natural to the game, it's because of cheats*. PSO was more fun because it involved more "player skill" in terms of methodology and timing whereas PSU is more just spamming the attack button and ignoring the attacks because 3/4 of them aren't worth avoiding.

And nononononono I am not a PSU hater. I really love PSU. But sometimes, I just really, really find I hate the direction Sega took with the monsters.

*=Hello PC PSU?

So basically the point of this post was to whine about the dumbed-down but "smarter" combat system in PSU compared to PSO. It's pretty much button mash land with occasional try to be helpful. Skill leveling makes everyone just spam w/e they're trying to level up instead of use the theoretical "smart" things to do.

ok RUNAWAY

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-18 00:54, imfanboy wrote:

On 2007-03-17 21:30, Mio wrote:
the element % is stronger than you think Alisha. It account also your base ATP before the damage increase




Actually, it's even stronger than that, from what I've tested.

Weapon damage goes: (Base ATP + Weapon Att.) * PA damage % * elemental %.

I've never felt 'gimped' as a fortefighter, wartecher, or figunner, because I UNDERSTAND the game, don't try to limit myself to one weapon type, and always bring plenty of proper elemental % weapons to any area we're going to - it's a point of annoyance for my friends that I'm always, "What area are we going to? OK, I've gotta go back to my room."

Or maybe they like it because it shows that I know what I'm doing - who knows? I can't read their minds.



You guys are missing my point. Green weapons are "free" (they drop in missions)and it does not matter if you break 1 getting it to a high grind. You probably would not a risk a 20% weapon, but a green one? Sure, why not...

yeah, a elemental weapons will do more damage - a little more, but cost effectiveness wise, those green weapons that you get up to +5/+7 are a great value.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-03-19 04:35 ]</font>

[Alisha]

you are an idiot truely. if thats your logic for using green weapons then just lol.......



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-03-19 20:38 ]</font>

[Vay]

I'm sorry, but matching the right element (even if it's only 10% weapon) to the right enemy ends up with much more ATP than a grinded green. Plus you don't have to stand at a grind counter for hours. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif I think the extra bonus is somewhere around 5% or more for matching the right element, also, so 10% is really somewhere around 15%. And last I checked, 10% weapons are definitely not difficult to find for cheap. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Schubalts]

Ok. Time to bring out the "Rappelz Stamina Argument!(tm)"

Stamina in Rappelz gives bonus exp.------------Elemental weapons in PSU deal bonus damage.

Not having stamina does NOT give you an exp penalty in Rappelz.------------Non-elemental weapons do not have a damage penalty in PSU.


Seriously. Stop acting like non-elemental weapons are healing the monsters, rather than hurting them. It's like comparing a +10 Flaming Longsword of Instagib to a regular +10 Longsword. The FLoI may be better than the Longsword, but that does not mean that the Longsword sucks.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-03-19 20:33, Alisha wrote:
you are an idiot truely. if thats your logic for using green weapons then just lol.......



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-03-19 20:38 ]</font>


funny, I'm an idiot with one +6 Berdys that cost him (*gasp*) 5K. The Berdys dropped for free, and I bought the grinders. One broke at +4, the other I now use.

on the flip side, I have spent nearly 50K just in boards for a 6* fists, trying to synth a decent % ice set...using a 100 strike PM, 2 failed, and the highest I got on the 4 that made it was 20%.

Seems like the 5K was money well spent.

[mll]

Just thought I'd throw my opinion in.
I can see why hunters feel hard done by since just about every time they 'rebalance' things they nerf the hell out of hunters and boost rangers and forces.
That and Forces have gotten so much better since the start of the game with the newer techs.
And a lot of the newer missions aren't exactly hunter friendly.
And Fortechers being so insanely overpowered.
Haven't really tried out any of the Ranger classes so I won't comment on them
Its kind of a pity because they had a pretty good balance at the start of the game (imo). But thats been totally screwed as time has gone on and is quickly returning to the PSO silliness
Having said that i really enjoy playing as a hunter so fook it, I'll live. I just don't particularly care if I'm stronger or weaker than other classes.

Oh and @ Creativehope
I'm not bothered by force getting s rank in bows etc. I just think its kind of silly that they're the only class with s rank force weapons. ANd the only class with lvl. 21+ techs. Not to mention rods. They're just completely unrivalled with techs. The same cant be said of gunners or fighters there's plenty of classes that do both well.
And sorry for all the force hate. I actually agree with the vast majority of your points, most of which I never really thought of despite playing force for a while. SO thanks for enlightening me =).
Hunters just haven't really gotten anything to shout about for a while, feel kinda bad for them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mll on 2007-03-20 06:32 ]</font>

[Sekani]

On 2007-03-19 20:33, Alisha wrote:
you are an idiot truely. if thats your logic for using green weapons then just lol.......

And you play offline, so shush http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

No one with sense is going to deny the value of elemental weapons, but people talk as if they forget that you only see the super-duper damage increase against ONE TYPE of enemy. For four out of six elements, you might as well be using a neutral weapon anyway.

Or you could spend half your natural life trying to amass six elemental versions of every weapon on your palette.

Ground or high-star neutral weapons are an economical choice and in practice not as gimp as some people seem to believe.

[Mewnie]

On 2007-03-19 20:33, Alisha wrote:
you are an idiot truely. if thats your logic for using green weapons then just lol.......




Mood: anti conformist


lol

are you sure you're still not playing FFXI?

[SS_Death]

I've read a few of these topics now, and it sounds to me not so much that the game is messed up, but more that people donlt know how to work as a team. My clan, abliet a small one when we were online in PSO we worked as a unit. Everyone had a part to play, and I believe it is the same here. Forces need to support and be supported, Rangers interrupting and supporting the hunters. It's a team effort, and it saddens me greatly to see that so many people seem to be forgetting that.