Hummer vs Prius

[Tengoku]

Article here (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188).

Discuss.

Interesting knowing that the needs for manufacturing even "green" products isn't all that healthy for the enviroment, eh?

found via Samizdata (http://www.samizdata.net/blog/)

[Solstis]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif If that's all true, it sucks.

[Jive18]

Holy shit :/. I've done a couple of research projects on the benefits of hybrids; I think I have been mislead somewhat.

[KodiaX987]

Yeah, automakers advertise based on fuel consumption only, when in reality we should be looking at the actual amount of energy it takes to make, deliver and drive the car, from parts to rust.

Surprise: one of the top "green", second place last I read in my newspaper, is... the Jeep Wrangler. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[HUnewearl_Meira]

This guy is failing to take oil dependence into consideration. Can you imagine if five to six billion drivers around the world were all to go out and start driving Hummers? Our oil consumption would increase drastically, and as such, so would the price of gas, meaning that our economy will go way the hell out of whack. Furthermore, the pollution caused by the vehicles would not be centralized in one location, spread out instead, thus, rather than utterly destroying one relatively small area to the point where no further damage can be done to it, we destroy most of the inhabited areas of the world over a longer span of time-- a long enough time span, that if the hybrid technology had been popular and subsequently improved, a great deal of that slow poisoning could have been prevented.

That's something that has to be taken into consideration. The Prius may cause more pollution overall, but what it doesn't do, is spread that pollution all over the world. Beyond that, I don't expect that nickel mine would be shutting down just because Toyota stopped producing hybrids, so we're gonna have a dead zone there, anyway. After all, Toyota isn't the only company that produces Nickel-Cadium rechargeable batteries.

[Ketchup345]

If you read the comments in the /. forum, it shows that the article is wrong on many parts.

The article bases it on the idea that the Prius only gets 100k miles before a battery replacement. There are Priuses out there with 200k+ miles on them and original batteries. Many people are saying that not a single Prius has had to have a battery replaced yet.

Prius Warranty:

Basic: 36 months/36,000 miles (all components other than normal wear and maintenance items).

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Prius' hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.Toyota also recycles their batteries from their hybrids.

Wikipedia also in a way says the town around the nickel mine is improving compared to the 1970s.

Basically: The study may be (read: is) way off.

About.com (http://hybridcars.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=hybridcars&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenercars.com%2F12green.html )linked article on 2007's greenest vehicles.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2007-03-21 15:30 ]</font>

[Tengoku]

On 2007-03-21 12:48, Jive18 wrote:
Holy shit :/. I've done a couple of research projects on the benefits of hybrids; I think I have been mislead somewhat.
I doubt that. The pollution actually produced by the operation of a prius is lower than the pollution produced by a hummer. The common conception is correct. What I think the article is showing is that the costs associated with production of anything, whether supposedly green or not, may not all be on the rear end of the product. So the hummer costs less to operate over 300k miles, if, and only if, the production costs of the vehicles are taken into account. Note, however, only the source of the parts for the prius are really investigated.

The hummer has a battery as well, just not one as big. So realisticly, the hummer suffers from the same initial enviromental costs as the prius, merely based on the need of a battery for daily operation.
On 2007-03-21 14:49, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:The Prius may cause more pollution overall, but what it doesn't do, is spread that pollution all over the world. Beyond that, I don't expect that nickel mine would be shutting down just because Toyota stopped producing hybrids, so we're gonna have a dead zone there, anyway. After all, Toyota isn't the only company that produces Nickel-Cadium rechargeable batteries.
True, but as for "spreading" pollution all over the world, what exactly are you referring to? The emissions? Sure, less emissions, but to put a twist on your statement, the battery eventually has to be disposed of, and where does that happen? Unless there is a special NICAD repository somwehere, or it gets recycled, the offending clump of metal will end up in a landfill somewhere. That somewhere is usually near where the car was bought and operated. Seeing as how they're being sold all over the nation, as well as to foreign countries, I think that would qualify as "all over the world". Also, if the car does not last as long as a hummer, as the article oddly suggests, then you have a whole new car being produced. This leads to having to dispose of the car, which is pollution, as well as introducing another car into the local enviroment.

I personally think that's a bunch of BS as toyotas are very reliable cars, so the 3x lifespan for the hummer over the pruis is silly, even if they are only talking about the lifespan of that expensive battery. Cherry-picking facts, it would appear to me, but it makes for interesting reading.

I'm holding out for hydrogen fuel cells, myself. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-03-21 15:12, Ketchup345 wrote:
About.com (http://hybridcars.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=hybridcars&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenercars.com%2F12green.html )linked article on 2007's greenest vehicles.


That article confirms for me, something I had hitherto only suspected-- my Yaris is the most fuel efficient traditional vehicle available. It even beats out some hybrids for fuel efficiency. Hell yes. This is why I bought that thing.

[Ketchup345]

On 2007-03-21 16:56, Tengoku wrote:

True, but as for "spreading" pollution all over the world, what exactly are you referring to? The emissions? Sure, less emissions, but to put a twist on your statement, the battery eventually has to be disposed of, and where does that happen? Unless there is a special NICAD repository somwehere, or it gets recycled, the offending clump of metal will end up in a landfill somewhere. That somewhere is usually near where the car was bought and operated. Seeing as how they're being sold all over the nation, as well as to foreign countries, I think that would qualify as "all over the world". Also, if the car does not last as long as a hummer, as the article oddly suggests, then you have a whole new car being produced. This leads to having to dispose of the car, which is pollution, as well as introducing another car into the local enviroment.

I personally think that's a bunch of BS as toyotas are very reliable cars, so the 3x lifespan for the hummer over the pruis is silly, even if they are only talking about the lifespan of that expensive battery. Cherry-picking facts, it would appear to me, but it makes for interesting reading.

I'm holding out for hydrogen fuel cells, myself. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
As I said above, Toyota takes in the old batteries when you replace them and will recycle them. The article claims the 100k mile lifespan for the Prius because that was the early estimate for the life of the battery (which Toyota warranties to 100k, but has shown to last much longer).

The article has been torn up by a few sites, on such things like the expected lifespan of the Toyota, the nickel mining city is actually nicer now than in the 70s, and other things.

The same article was featured on Slashdot yesterday. It includes some unanswered questions for the authors of the report.

One question I have for the report is why are they putting the cars in the classes they are? Some of the classifications makes no sense (Civics, luxury?!).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2007-03-21 18:28 ]</font>

[Sinue_v2]

This is one of my main problems with environmentalism - bad science and rushed decisions to quell some percieved impending "crisis" which only end up making the situation worse. Yet in the meantime, those jackasses who drive the hybrids get a bad case of the "smugs", and belittle those who don't drive "efficency" cars and blame them for "killing the planet".

My cousin has been contemplating the purchase of a hybrid ever since seeing that Al Gore movie... and he's going to shit when he hears this. That is... if he just doesn't dismiss the report and call me "a part of the problem".

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-03-21 18:11, Ketchup345 wrote:
As I said above, Toyota takes in the old batteries when you replace them and will recycle them. The article claims the 100k mile lifespan for the Prius because that was the early estimate for the life of the battery (which Toyota warranties to 100k, but has shown to last much longer).


Not to mention, batteries of that size especially, aren't supposed to be thrown away with regular trash, anyway. Technically, you're supposed to take them down to your local dump where it will be recycled or properly disposed of. All major electronic devices are like this; you're not supposed to just toss a computer in the trash, either. These are things that are supposed to be specially collected specifically so that they don't end up in a Fresh Kills landfill.

[Jive18]

"I have been slightly mislead" is an incorrect statement. I should've detailed that in the research I have done on the current and future state of hybrids, never before had I seen (or thought to look for) the actual data concerning the production of the cars.

Oh well. The "plug-in" lithium hybrids maybe will over-compensate for the drawback of producing them.