Crossbow VS Twin Handguns VS Shotgun [Archive]

Theoderic

Apr 2, 2007, 12:05 AM

I originally used Shotguns because I figured the whole hitting 5+ enemies thing was cool, and kind of having the ability to "melee" with a gun, but I realized the reload time was unsuitable for me, as I prefer to be a more mobile Fortegunner. I have been enjoying the fact that my Twins perform equally as good on single enemy as a Shotty up close, but without the risk involved, and the added mobility, not to mention FPS which is useful in certain situations (mostly against Shagreece/Zoona). But I have leveled up my Crossbow bullets, and have Yak Inga (Zonde) up to 24, and I feel as though it is better to use than my Twins. I find myself not needing to be as close to an enemy to make all 3 hits land as I would need to be for the original 3 hits on a Shotgun, and I see that the base attack and accuracy on them is higher than Twins. Also, the Crossbow has level 3 status, and although doesn't have the range the Twins have, the Crossbow has 2 ways of attacking, either "melee" or group, kind of like a moblie Shotgun. I'm guessing Crossbow is a mixture of the 2 lol. I do notice that Twins have more PP, but they cost the same per shot at 21+. I would guess that they would be the same as far as damage goes, Crossbow having more base damage, Twin Handguns having 9 more elemental %, but I feel like I need to choose between one or another. I tried different scenarios of battle with both, and they seem to do basically the same thing, with Crossbow landing SE3 compared to SE2. Is there something I'm missing? I was considering another weapon in my Twins place, possibly being more Crossbows, but I have another concern...

If Crossbow is supreme, what do I replace Twin PAs with?

I use Rifle, Grenade Launcher, and Crossbows, and plan to learn up to all 8 PAs for them. That is 24, and 3 for Saber, which leaves me 9 slots left for PAs.

If you guys can paint a clear neough picture for me about Twins to keep them, in spite of the Crossbows' SE3 and versatility, then please, let me know, because I don't want to level PAs I won't be using.

Apr 2, 2007, 12:10 AM

twin handguns wins if those were your only 3 selection. I can do 385 per hit with Bunny and that is level 28 ice against those pig looking monster on Neudiaz. With two hits that damage up to 700+ u cant really go wrong with that. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I would recommend twin handguns.

XenithFlare

Apr 2, 2007, 12:34 AM

I would, also, recommend Twin Handguns. However, lemme make a quick suggestion:

Don't get all of the elemental PAs for your guns. Just don't. You'll spend countless hours levelling them all to 21 (especially the rifles, lordy), only to never use certain ones. The grenade launcher only really needs one, maybe two elements (I personally have ice and earth), I haven't felt the need to use crossbows just yet (been thinking about it for Yak Megiga), and rifles... well, if you were to get all the elements for any weapon, and if you have insane amounts of time, get them for the rifle. But, honestly... lightning's shock is probably best for the shotty (due to the occasional need to shock multiple enemies), as is light's confuse (if you ever... need it). Earth shots really aren't very useful whatsoever aside from damage (since there are few earth enemies). So you can cut a fair number of PAs from your list.

Though I can't ONLY recommend Twins. I, myself, use Twins (earth, light, dark, ice), Shotties (fire, ice, light), and Grenades (ice and earth). I rarely use Rifles, but KS is a neat thing to have as a Fortegunner - I also have an Ice laser solely for my Degahna Cannon, when I decide to show off its prettiness. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I can tell you, as well, that having useless PAs that you've levelled to 21 is NOT fun. My earth twin and 'nade PA rarely get used (unless I'm doing Lab), nor does my light shotty PA (don't feel light getting owned in LL while reloading).

So trust me: gauge where you're going to be playing most, which SEs you're going to need for those enemies, and get the respective PAs. Don't even get them all at once, either; buy them one at a time so you don't get overwhelmed. Just my thoughts as a fellow Ranger. =D

-Shimarisu-

Apr 2, 2007, 12:46 AM

Sorry guys, but crossbow DPS>twin handgun, take it from me.

You should level handguns for areas where you NEED to be furthur away from an enemy, and crossbow in all others. I'd recommend fire and ice bullets in twin handguns. The rest really are not needed.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 2, 2007, 12:52 AM

On 2007-04-01 22:46, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Sorry guys, but crossbow DPS>twin handgun, take it from me.

You should level handguns for areas where you NEED to be furthur away from an enemy, and crossbow in all others. I'd recommend fire and ice bullets in twin handguns. The rest really are not needed.

the issue was getting all 3 shots to hit with the xbox , I think

Theoderic

Apr 2, 2007, 12:56 AM

I already bought em all... It's kind of what I do, to test em out. I figured to at least get all the elements in case ST decided to make more element variants of certain monsters, or was to give certain elemented creatures different abilities (similar to the light relics Seed). I also like being able to do damage, and I was thinking about melee % when creating this character, and figured the same time spent leveling all the PAs would equal trying to get all +10 on all 6 different 50% weapons of different types. That is why I decided to only roll with certain guns. Rifle for SE4 and range, Grenade for Huge Multi-target Seed, Saber mainly for Rising Strike and Bullet resistant Seed, and Crossbow as the BEST available sidearm to a Fortegunner (imo), and I used to think Twins for damage (I heard it was more damage than Rifle as far as DPS goes) and mobility (which I find useful for herds). I just feel like Crossbow is doing the Twins' job too... Maybe Crossbow is overpowered. I'm starting to see the only reason for Twins is for the Zalure PA... But I so hope I am wrong. I love Grenade too much to go GT, so with only A ranks for Crossbow and Twin Handgun, are Twins really worth it? I mean, it can't hurt to have them if they are equal to Crossbow because they DO keep me away from Jarba's in close quarters, but that seems to be the only creature I don't want to be too close to. Anything else I can handle taking a hit from, or can immobilize with Rising Strike and own with Crossbow up close. Is there anyone who can confirm damage? I don't have 2 of the same element bullets leveled to 21, so I can't compare, but I am in the process of doing so. I am so hoping Bulletmasters outdamage Cugo Mamba. It needs to be used on something resistant to said element, and weak to said element, so I can compare them in the best and worst of damage situations, as well as at their highest bullet numbers. I will do this myself just to test, but I would love if someone already had this information available. If that's too extensive of a test, just something steering me toward keeping Twins, because I love them for their coolness. Maybe more Seed to stay away from?

Miyoko

Apr 2, 2007, 01:00 AM

On 2007-04-01 22:10, BunnyGirl wrote:
twin handguns wins if those were your only 3 selection. I can do 385 per hit with Bunny and that is level 28 ice against those pig looking monster on Neudiaz. With two hits that damage up to 700+ u cant really go wrong with that. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I would recommend twin handguns.

I deal over 700 damage per shot with my shotgun, and I'm 20 levels lower than your fortegunner. That's using Lv28 earth bullets against an enemy who ISN'T electric type. You can deal even more than that if you hit multiple targets with your shotty, as I believe one bullet can hit two enemies. (Not sure on that, though)

Just some food for thought. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

It really depends what you want to go for, damage or mobility. In my experience, shotguns -far- out-damage any other gun I've used. Of course, as stated, the risk is the low mobility / being in melee range. If you absolutely must have the mobility, then yes, go dual handguns. If you want straightu p damage, go shotties.

Unfourtonately, I cannot speak to crossbows.

Apr 2, 2007, 01:12 AM

i havent level up my bow to 21 so i am not talking much about it either...well the time it take to level bow pa to 21 is equivalant to leveling up 2-3 twin pistols pa...i think u get 23% element when u hit 21 for twin pistols. To me using twin pistol is much more fun and safer to stay away from enemies. I got a shotgun ice bullet to 23 and i quitted using it after awhile cause i got a little bore of shotgun. If you are a fortegunner why r u bothering with meleeing??? u will do way more damage with guns than meleeing at all. And twin pistol can take down Jarba much more quicker than any guns i can tell u that. With twin pistols u can still switch to 1st person, but bow u cant...well if u have the time to level bow pa to 21 see if u like it better than twin pistol then. I still preferred twin pistols overall beside rifle.

Miyoko

Apr 2, 2007, 01:43 AM

On 2007-04-01 23:12, BunnyGirl wrote:
i havent level up my bow to 21 so i am not talking much about it either...well the time it take to level bow pa to 21 is equivalant to leveling up 2-3 twin pistols pa...i think u get 23% element when u hit 21 for twin pistols. To me using twin pistol is much more fun and safer to stay away from enemies. I got a shotgun ice bullet to 23 and i quitted using it after awhile cause i got a little bore of shotgun. If you are a fortegunner why r u bothering with meleeing??? u will do way more damage with guns than meleeing at all. And twin pistol can take down Jarba much more quicker than any guns i can tell u that. With twin pistols u can still switch to 1st person, but bow u cant...well if u have the time to level bow pa to 21 see if u like it better than twin pistol then. I still preferred twin pistols overall beside rifle.

A rifle might be able to take down a jarba quicker simply due to the ability to place a SE 4 burn. Dualies, while possessing good mobility and damage, lack good SE abilities. They're not the "end all, above all" type weapon you make them out to be. They may be good for certain situations, but they aren't for -every- situation -- No gun is.

The best thing I could suggest, is to get more than one. Why restrict yourself to only one? Why not get dualies and a crossbow? Or a crossbow and a shot? Or all three, even? Nobody can make a better suggestion to you than your own experiences.

Edit: Stupid internet screwed up, I had more.

There's nothing wrong to melee-ing with a fortegunner, so long as they don't do it in excess. Melee techniques such as Rising Strike can give rangers a type of controll they don't get with most gun type weapons. I use daggers on pig-type enemies, simply because it's more effecient for me to do so (and they're easy to dodge).

I should probably also mention that I always roll with a team including a fortetechter, fortefighter, and fighunner, though... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And good god yes Bunny, I agree 100% about rifles taking too long to level. x_x I had to solo-grind Linear Line S with a 1* rifle(s) so I could get my rifle bullets up to par with some of my others, which I get to high levels without even trying. blah.

[ This Message was edited by: Miyoko on 2007-04-01 23:58 ]

Apr 2, 2007, 01:50 AM

twin pistols isnt the only weapon i use...lol >.> i use rifle, laser cannon, and granade. If u let me choose between rifle and twin pistol, i would choose rifle. I only preferred twin pistols cause it can do damage quicker and move side way quicker than rifle. Like Miyoko just says, as a ranger...i mean fortegunner...try using watever guns u preferred and have fun with. My only complaints about rifle is the time it takes to level it to 21 makes me wanna cry...lol.

Theoderic

Apr 2, 2007, 02:14 AM

I have tried all 3. I currently use Crossbow and Twin Handguns, 2 of each on my pallette.

"Melee" meaning getting up close, face to face, with a Shotgun or a Crossbow to allow all of the multiple spread hits to hit one target. In this situation, Shotgun hits one spot 5 times, and Crossbow hits one spot 3 times. I just looked on PSUpedia for the stats on the 3 weapons' bullets.

http://www.psupedia.info/index.php?title=Bullets

Level 21+ Bullets
Shotgun: 13%, SE2, 5 Shots (if positioned correctly, one bullet may hit 2 targets, theoretically meaning 10 hits, but doesn't work too close).

Crossbow: 15%, SE3, 3 Shots (from the many times I have used it, the bullets seem too small for one to hit 2 targets).

Twin Handguns: 24%, SE2, 2 Shots

From what I can see, against the right element, Twin Handguns might be the most damaging, as well as the least damaging against the same element enemies. The range is pretty decent, but the combat is simple, just strafing left and right.

Crossbow is an offhand weapon, and has bullets that are stronger than the Shotgun's. Also, the ATP on Cugo Mamba is higher than that of Deathmaker, and I am sure still higher than the ATP of the same Star Rarity Shotgun, not to mention the highest illegitimate 12 Star Shotgun. It also has SE3, allowing for a seperate teir of enemy to be affected. No FPS but gives the user the ability to strafe. Can hit 3 seperate enemies, or one 3 times, close up.

Shotgun is basically a stationary weapon, is the weakest stat wise, but has 5 bullets. This could be a great multiplier, and I can definitely see a Beast Fortegunner outdamaging every other gunner because of the 5x multiplier for their already high attack. 5 to 10 seperate enemies, or 5 hits on a single target or enemy (as close as you need to be for all 5 hits to land, there is no room left for one bullet to hit more than one target on a multi-targeted enemy). To land the 5 hits though, you must be within kissing distance of the enemy, a lot closer than you have to be for Crossbow. The reload time afterward and lack of strafing makes the user more vulnerable.

So... If there is a way to see if Bulletmaster compares to Cugo Dunga, I may end up replacing it with something else...

[ This Message was edited by: Theoderic on 2007-04-02 00:17 ]

Gen2000

Apr 2, 2007, 02:23 AM

I have all Xbows to lv.21+ and still prefer Twins in some cases vs. certain enemies and bosses but if you're leveling up Rifle and other PAs too then you can probably drop Twin PAs if you needed to. To me as well Twins use is mostly a personally thing too because they look cooler in battle than Xbows and they're not exactly bad DPS weapons themselves, it's just that Xbows are better. Earlier ago I found myself using Xbows alittle too much...like my pallette was consisting of nothing but them mainly and like one Rifle or Grenade Gun. It was making being a Ranger kind of boring to me.

All I know is that the Shotgun even with the upgrade isn't up to snuff vs. Xbow, it does more damage but it's not that much in comparison from what I've seen and you the mobility you get from Xbow plus the damage potential you can do along with the SE3 spread potential (best way to spread SEs beside Traps obviously) is too good.

I still leveled up the Shotgun PAs in hopes that the Sranks Shotguns have some sort of special feature to them though. I noticed 442's Bow causes knockdown so if an Srank Shotgun has a special effect like flinching or something that would help balance out that pointless recovery time (why pump a laser gun?).

pikachief

Apr 2, 2007, 02:27 AM

On 2007-04-01 22:10, BunnyGirl wrote:
twin handguns wins if those were your only 3 selection. I can do 385 per hit with Bunny and that is level 28 ice against those pig looking monster on Neudiaz. With two hits that damage up to 700+ u cant really go wrong with that. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I would recommend twin handguns.

if i hit the enemy with each shotgun hit im doign about 1000 damage on a fire enemy, but u have to be close and it shoots slow.

my cross bow with teh Ultimate PA at lvl 30 does about 3 300+ most of teh time and shoot twice as fast as a shotgun! i timed it and its 900+ damage a second!!

when im gonna die in one hit i do 3 400's+!!!!!! thats about 1200 damage a second! if u have cross bow get the ultimate PA first! runs out faster than others but it is VERY worth it!

Miyoko

Apr 2, 2007, 02:48 AM

On 2007-04-02 00:14, Theoderic wrote:
Crossbow hits one spot 3 times.

You sure about this? I thought only one bullet hit, and the others passed through a target?

Theoderic

Apr 2, 2007, 02:50 AM

It is the same as a Shotgun. Hits multiple enemies once from afar, and one enemy multiple times at near point blank (point blank for all 5 of Shotgun's bullets to hit).

ashley50

Apr 2, 2007, 02:56 AM

my selection is like this:
Shotgun>Twin hadguns>crossbow...(don't ask).

I'll be happy to sacrifice mobility over High Damage, 'cause i've already got used to it since i saw the damage you can do with 21+ bullets is pretty or very good.
twin hadguns...I don't use them much but i still want my bullets to 21

and crossbow....
no comment at the oment since it's only Lv3 for me. I'm not very find of this weapon really =/
(it doesn't have FPS...badthing for me)

Jey

Apr 2, 2007, 03:10 AM

^^^ Shotgun doesn't have FPS either, so. um, don't diss crossbow if you've never tried it at 21+ ><

Crossbow is my main damage + generic SE3 weapon of choice as a fortegunner (and my now-retired guntecher ; ;) SE3 + mobility + shot spread + fast firing rate... yeah. I get into heated arguments every time a friend goes off about shotguns being awesome. Sure, it may potentially do a little more damage against lower-defense mobs, but I find giving up the mobility and SE3s unacceptable, and I can main-hand a saber for basic crowd control.

I mean really, Rising Strike + Crossbow was match made for up-close ownage, plus the saber helps keep you alive a little longer while you thrill-seek using Zagenga at <10%hp.

I use twin handguns a lot too, especially on demon bosses (the hit rate seem to bust the wings faster). They're great for everything really. I use Twin Mayalee on my fortegunner and figh so I gotta carry them around anyway.

Fortegunner should consider various guns for different occasions, and mix/match as they please. But generally they need something for close-range plinking (crossbow/shotgun/mechgun), mid-range(shotgun/crossbow/twinguns/rifle/handgun) and long-range(mainly just rifle/twinguns). And of course grenades and maybe laser somewhere.

Each fG's palette and PA list is unique. Fire with whatever you find easiest to use, lol.

[ This Message was edited by: Jey on 2007-04-02 01:11 ]

Itsuki

Apr 2, 2007, 03:12 AM

Dualies are a well rounded weapon, but that also means they are only "good" at about everything. But thats not necessarily a bad thing. If you ever need a weapon to fall back on, they're always good for the situation. They're just not usually "great".

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of shotguns at all. Why you ask? Because before the PA rebalance, crossbows did equal, if not more DPS. And the difference was made even larger by the fact that you constantly need to readjust, and your lack of mobility leaves you open to being hit. Even now that shotguns deal slightly more, crossbows are the ideal weapon for GT and probably the idea offhand for fG. Great DPS, level 3 status effects, mobility, plus the ability to have a wand/dagger in the other hand. The only thing they don't have is range and the ability to go FPS. And when you need those, thats where Dualies beat them out. These are generally flying monsters, monsters that aren't safe to get close to, and monsters that move around too damn much.

Alisha

Apr 2, 2007, 03:13 AM

the ultimate shotgun bullet sounds pretty hot. 110% accuracy at level 30 + level 2 zodeel? sign me up!

Miyoko

Apr 2, 2007, 03:20 AM

Y'know, I've honestly never experienced the "lack of mobility is extremely dangerous" and "you need to move and re-adjust after every shotgun shot" that people talk about. A lot of the time I can just stand in one spot and chain-fire one after another. This is probably thanks to having people I always team with.

I guess I should be thankful I've got pocket-teamates. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Alisha

Apr 2, 2007, 03:23 AM

the mobility arguement is moot in my opinion because it assumes you are usinig straffing as a crutch,but if you are good at setting up shots without L1 wich i am you can be mobile with shotguns as well. also people fail to mention that crossbow recoil is nearly as bad as shotgun recoil. dont believe me? go shoot a few handgun rounds then compare it to crossbow.

Itsuki

Apr 2, 2007, 03:28 AM

Probably. But the whole dodging and readjusting thing may be emphasized for me because I play newman gt as my main. Which is basically the PSU equivalent of a sheet of paper. I mean, taking 3 hits from nearly anything in S2 is death for me. Even with correct armor.

But it also depends on where you are, and how high you are. I mean, on neudaiz, against anything but worms, you can probably just stand there and unload. But on Parum... I wouldn't dream of using a shotgun anywhere. Also, as difficulty increases, monsters move faster. In S2, there are several monsters that move far faster than you do. I dunno, I think its just theres too many enemies I (personally) just wouldn't ever use shotguns on to warrant leveling the Bullets for the few monsters I would use them on.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-02 01:31 ]

Theoderic

Apr 2, 2007, 03:47 AM

The recoil and time in between shots for the 2 is similar, with Shotgun being the slower of the 2. But regardless, it is tolerable either way. How about cocking back that Shotgun while dodging Megid... Try pushing an enemy into a corner while remaining behind it to ensure 100% accuracy while having to cock the Shotgun after a shot. I personally love being able to move while spreading SE3. I PERSONALLY will choose Crossbow over Shotgun. If you can manage between rotating around an enemy while locked with Saber, moving to the rear, and landing those 3 hits on the back of an enemy, the combo is devastating and keeps you scar free. Shotgun honestly doesn't allow this. Maybe I should have left Shotgun out of the battle. I'm just looking for a reason to keep Twins, but I'm guessing Vandas and Jarbas (up close) are what I would use them on... Maybe... I am still having a hard time finding their purpose. Someone posted that they use them on Zoal Goug/Onmagoug/Dimmagolous so I'm guessing that Twins would help out. Rifle seems to only be good on Jarba. Anything else is either not so bad to get close to, or can be taken down by Crossbow... I guess Rifle or Twins for flying things, but Rifle kind of does what Twins does in FPS a lot better, especially with SE4 and knockback... I'm guessing I can get some 21+ Shifta cast on me to see how the bullet # multipliers effect overall damage. I was mainly trying to find out the purpose of Twin Handguns. Thank you all for the feedback. I still kind of think Crossbows are overpowered... I hope I don't jynx them...

Niered

Apr 2, 2007, 04:16 AM

Well...heres my take on this whole thing.

Shotgun: I love shotties. I love shocking an entire group of small-mid sixe mobs and allowing the hunters to just do there job. Plus, shotties are great for soloing if your just looking for damage.

Twin Handguns: Easily the most damaging weapon in my pallete. The SE is a nice bonus, but realistically these weapons really are meant for damage.

Crossbow: To be honest, Ive never touched one. This doesnt mean that I dont like them, or that I feel theyre bad weaponry, I just never got into them because...

Handgun: I KNOW I KNOW.

"A FORTEGUNNER USING A HANDGUN? LOLWTFNUB!".

Alright, lemme explain. By the time we got expert classes I already had 2 lvl 20 bullets (Freeze and shock) and didnt feel like taking a chance with an untested weapon. By the time everyone decided that crossbows were the hottest things around, I had lv 30 shock, freeze, and a few other lower level bullets. Thats the bad news for me.

The good news? Ill take mayalee hit over the crossbows Ult PA any day. Yes i know, Damage is awesome. But Mayalee is nice if only for the healing aspect. People complain its not that much, but I do enjoy it.

Also, I get S in handgun, and A in crossbow...and I like S ranks.

Lastly, the Handgun does shoot faster, which is helpful when your corner 1 or 2 mobs alone, and just need to srick an SE on em' so you can melee them safely.

So, Im not defending the Handgun, I just prefer it. I realize that for all intents and purposes the Crossbow is probably superior, I just dont have the motivation to learn something new =(

Miyoko

Apr 2, 2007, 04:28 AM

Hey, handguns need love too! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Akaimizu

Apr 2, 2007, 07:49 AM

I also think everybody still truly underestimates the distance Monster control of Twin Handguns as well. In many cases, they are your most powerful weapon with Reach, the ability to hit further targets, and have targetting. Unless the monster has bullet resistance, they outdamage the Rifle and Bow, easily. But it's the pinpoint targetting, and reach (plus zoom targetting) that are important for other things, such as monster management. When the chaos starts, you want to be able to do something about someone whenever you turn quickly in any direction. Some that's fast, a little easier to aim, and can distract and/or damage that *potentially* distant mob, quickly and without draining your slower SE4 weapons quickly.

I tend to use the Twin Handguns because they fall well into my strategy. As much as people like to deny it by what they think of the psupedia. I find level 21+ versions of the bullets to land SEs quite fast, on average. They do good damage for the distance, and they also do something very good for support. You can stand back, and pull mobs off people with their rate of fire and nice high-bullet accurracy. Now, it may have a little less use for a figunner as they do stop at 20 (thus potentially not landing the effects quite as fast on average) and that they do have better defense and HP.

But for the distractor who can get into trouble quickly, from any strong attack, you want as much distance as you can get, when you run distraction. My outfitting actually is Twin Handguns my medium-range (fast MayaLee and SE2 landing and monster distraction and air boss attackers as they outdamage anything else that reaches up there), Crossbows (short range damage, close-distance monster stun and damage delivery weapon), Rifles and Bows. I use the bow and rifle for the SE4 delivery, rifle because of the S-class factor. I'll be limiting myself if I stay only with bows once I get my hands on S-class rifles.

Needless to say, I think way further than just Damage factor as I've saved quite a few people, and saved healings and/or the emergency status recovery/boost due to a nice pinpoint distraction weapon. Utilitarian weapons, for me, are about the entire strategy, not just a case of pure DPS. DPS is nice, but when there's plenty of times you plain aren't going to be the main part of the damage delivery (GT), then there are times when other strategies actually help even more. Something I really enjoy because I did get quite sick of how nearly everything was about DPS in FFXI. Made sure people had to play every character *just* one way, to satisfy so many others. Normally, when I hear about people saying (this is the only effective way you should play this character), it simply instantly throws an image of a kind of society that PSO/PSU was never about, in the first place.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-02 06:00 ]

XenithFlare

Apr 2, 2007, 08:09 AM

I've wanted to pull my handguns back out for Mayalee Hit... I just have far too many PAs to level, as it is. >< I probably will, eventually. Kinda like the crossbow; eventually I'll get to it, but I haven't seen anything particularly amazing about it compared with how I play now.

Even if you do decide to ditch the Twins, you should at the very least take it upon yourself to buy and level Twin Mayalee, and carry one Deathmaker on you at all times. Being able to strafe around mobs (at a much more favorable distance than FTs) while lowering defense with 100% accuracy is far too good to pass up. :3 Your party will love you.

One last thing: shotties really deserve their place in your palette, if you're experienced with using them. I found the best way to utilize them is to start early; make it your MAIN weapon for a period of time and use nothing else. Once you've spent a few days, a week with it, go ahead and pull it back to sub-weapon status. By then, you'll have figured out the mechanics behind it, how you can and can't use it, and situations in which it is useful. It isn't, by nature, a main weapon. Using the "you can't dodge megid" argument is moot, because you shouldn't be using the shotty against enemies that can use Megid, as it is. Mobility isn't an issue if you take into account the fact that you can't move when you pull the trigger. All I have to say about that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Akaimizu

Apr 2, 2007, 08:18 AM

True. I find that Jarba Megid is easy to dodge, but only if you stay outside of shotty and crossbow range. They aren't the fastest projectile, but I find that I have to be at a particular distance, to not risk being caught by them, even in full run.

Shots are nice weapons, though. I can see them having a place with a different strategy, as well. I can't S those weapons, and I would be quite interested in seeing how nice the S crossbows are.

XenithFlare

Apr 2, 2007, 08:26 AM

I'll certainly enjoy my S guns... I'll actually use rifles once I can get my hands on the Killer Elite; teleporting bullets ftw!

Miyoko

Apr 2, 2007, 08:32 AM

While you bring up good points about the other uses to the weapons such as "taunting" and quick SE spreading, Akaimizu (though I don't know if I agree with you that higher level PA = higher application chance, I haven't seen enough evidence to support that), you honestly cannot dismiss the fact that DPS is a useful and necessary tool for -any- class, even gunners.

Sure, you can use bullets for taunting to pull enemies off players in need, I'm not dismissing this as false. However, straight-up DPS can wipe out a group fast enough that the need for taunting a monster off someone never shows up -- A dead monster can't attack someone. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Again, I'm not saying the "other" effects as weapons, such as controll and whatnot, aren't a viable option that should be utilized... But I -am- saying you cannot dismiss the usefulness of DPS entirely.

Even when I played WoW, it seemed that people were either "I'm all about pure DPS since it's the best choice" or "Pure DPS is dumb, maximum controll is far better!". It was always at one end or the other. A healthy balance of both is where it's at.

... Man, playing Phoenix Wright has really made me want to fight and defend every counter argument. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

omegapirate2k

Apr 2, 2007, 08:44 AM

Meh, I use twin handguns AND the crossbow, and as a fighgunner my crossbow damage is pretty much equal to my twin handgun damage. This is how I use my guns.

Twin Handguns: Long Range
Crossbow: Close Range
Mechgun: FROM BEHIND!!!!!!

Akaimizu

Apr 2, 2007, 10:40 AM

On 2007-04-02 06:32, Miyoko wrote:
Again, I'm not saying the "other" effects as weapons, such as controll and whatnot, aren't a viable option that should be utilized... But I -am- saying you cannot dismiss the usefulness of DPS entirely.

Precisely, and that's why I still feel they are useful. The thing is, if the DPS difference is significant enough to totally counter the other uses, then yes, there would be an issue. But, for now, they both have their uses, and it's up to you to know when to mix it up, to take advantage of both. Twin Handguns really do nice damage, for the uses it has. They are by far, not pea-shooters. Twin Handguns, just like Crossbow, have applications and scenarios where each one gain the DPS advantage. It's basically how they are applied. They also have cases where each one gains some nice time for application.

I'm more likely to simply defend the good uses of Twin Handguns, than to discount the uses of other weapons, for that reason. I'm not one to say DPS isn't useful. (Heck, I wouldn't have the entire range of DOT SEs (a Guntecher's most damaging contribution to the party ever), if I didn't) I'm defending the idea that many totally discount the other strategies that can be just as important. You also have to gauge the preferred weight of your weapons based on your specific class/race and other stats. A growing human GT has to consider different things than if they were a different gunner. Especially since you're given low provisions for both MST and DFP. You're going to likely prefer distance to avoid dying. I die to so many things that no other gunner class would. A fortegunner or figunner is able to stay in much closer with less worry, in many cases. A GT performs good distraction, carefully. They need to. I love the crossbow, personally; though for me, I need to be in the situations to do so. Frivolously trying to run in there, gets me killed.

Thing is, in an action game, where you can freely target any creature and see the chaos happen, opens and alters a lot of strategies from the way they best work in a clock-based switch-target game that you have in those MMORPGs. It brings other parts of the action-playstyle to a more visibly useful method. Distraction, among certain other things, can't work in those games like it can here.

Twin guns, I basically dissected the strategies and the benefits of higher percentages they get, when going from 1 to 21 and up. (I'm working on my final 2 elements to get there. (Twin MayaLee being one of them (3 levels to go)) I only state it because I've noticed a difference as I kept going from bullet to bullet. Seeing how they average to land effects from low to high level bullets. Takes approximately 80 straight play hrs, each bullet if you were to take them to 30. (Boy they level slow) Still. There are strategies when you use a different gun setup than the one I use. I just wont say what is better. It depends on how you make the most of them.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-02 08:54 ]

SolomonGrundy

Apr 3, 2007, 11:42 AM

I play a cast guntecker, and in my most common party, act in a support role.

With that being said, for me crossbows > shotguns.
Shots tag more enemies, but SE 3 lasts longer than SE2, and I am recharging wand PP while I'm using it. The mobility IS a bonus, how much of one depends on party size/level.

I'm the level 40 "chump" in my party, and when surrounded by gung-ho figunners I can't afford to let many enemies hit me before I am getting squished. I hope to remedy this with a series of better armor, but really gunner DFP is for sh*t.

Dual handguns are both my best assest and annoyingly not useful. What I really want to do is use them on Bil de Vears ( I want to stay at range, and have mobiity), but those SOBs take 1/2 from guns. the fill a totally different role than shotty or x-bow.

Wing shots (Onmagogh, Dimmaglogus), Head shots (lightning dragon), and jarba killin - that's my dualie roll. I also used them quite a bit in hive/LL at low level, but I have a feeling light X-bow will put an end to that quickly.

Akaimizu

Apr 3, 2007, 12:54 PM

Dual Handguns on things like Bil de Vears have limited use. The best thing to do with them, for those guys, is to hit them with Twin MayaLee, first. If you plan on using Twins, that bullet art is a must. It eventually becomes a super fast landing powerful Zalure, you can apply at a distance. (You'll pretty much start nearly every battle with it) Then you put the Dual Handguns away, and take out the Bow or Rifle (hopefully with level 21+ Fire or Dark bullets) and get him with the Status effect. I believe they require a level 4 Status effect to get them. Still, the tick damage is fantastic. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Also, ANY kind of Jellen you can hit a Bill De Vear with, is always helpful. Even a fairly low level Jellen is enough to significantly hurt their damage potential. (This is only because they *live* off that tornado move, and it's a series of hits. A little damage reduction off each hit equals a significant enough damage difference to help keep the close-range folks alive. This has been tested quite a bunch.)

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-03 10:57 ]

Para

Apr 3, 2007, 02:11 PM

Twin handguns is a staple imo. You cant go without twin handguns because it has much better 1on1 range compared to shotguns and xbows.

Shotguns are useful to use to hit multiple enemies from a good range where enemy count >3. And possibly 1on1 with no other enemies around.

Xbow is good 1on1 and multiple enemies around which makes it more versitile imo. I use xbow for GT and I think theyre great. However I also like to mix cards in my assortment of weapons because theyre just an awesome weapon to kite with unlike xbows which can put you within range of certain enemies.

Jey

Apr 3, 2007, 02:39 PM

There are a lot of guns in this game which r0x0rz better on certain mobs and don't do so well on others. It also depends on what tactics you use to mess them up. Like, for example...

Kagajiribari - He's really dangerous in Forest Infiltration S2, his special moves (the shield, bellyflop, and of course the spin) will 1-2 hit KO pretty much anyone but a fully levelled fortefighter (and if someone uses dark weapons, Megiverse rocks anyone trying to protect themselves with light armor). On my fortegunner, I drop Virus Gs on him (or have someone shoot it with SE4 Virus) and go to town on him with Boma Maga and keep him frozen non-stop, which also lets the hunters melee him without fear as Boma Maga interrupts all of its specials/spells fast enough as long as my human fG accuracy doesn't fail me. I've yet to see a better/safer tactic on him, yet some gunners just prefer to Burn him down. It's just whatever has worked for you.

Twin Handguns like I've said before, I use mainly for Twin Mayalee and demon boss wing-chopping. I use them as Figh on Jarbas as well though Mechgun is better on them (on Fortegunner I use the virus+boma maga trick on them in groups of 2 or more, only time I'm happy they are single-target). They're great for FPS shooting as well, though the downside compared to rifle is that you can't knock stuff out of the air.

Xbow I use on a great many things, mainly the humanoid-size mobs both to spread some useful SE3 (Shock comes to mine on Vahra, and Confuse for Gohmons, or heck just Burn). Offhanding a saber or dagger means you can crowd-control as well (Rising Strike or Shunbu I think is best for those purposes? haven't played with Shunbu much) SE3 will stick to everything but minibosses like SEED Vance/Stateria/GolDova - yes, it will even stick to Bils, Kog Nadds, and Dilnazen with some luck, though I wouldn't typically use crossbow for those.

Shotguns, I just couldn't find a place for them outside of tagging (and FPS with a Rifle works just as well), and I've levelled ice/shock shotties to 21+ to figure out a place for them... and deleted them. So, I dunno. It all just depends on how you tackle certain enemies.

So... don't limit yourself, unless you've already tried it and just can't imagine a good use.

Akaimizu

Apr 3, 2007, 02:59 PM

Good to know that SE3 actually works on Bil De Vears. Looks like I'm really going to have some crazy fun with my Crossbows, once I get shock to level 21. I hope they land the status well enough. I don't like staying too close to anything. Fortunately Bil De Vears aren't exactly the princes of range.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-03 13:01 ]

SolomonGrundy

Apr 3, 2007, 03:00 PM

I do admit I use shotties more on lower rank missions as they cut down mobs nicely.

Mobs being ageeta, bardia, polty, naval

Akaimizu

Apr 3, 2007, 03:05 PM

Actually, as you approach 70, you kind of have to *remember pinpoint* weapons that *don't* cut down lower rank mobs nicely.

Sometimes, when I'm doing that and helping lower-level folks, I have to specifically remember to keep around a weapon that doesn't force high damage and fire carefully. I keep around a single handgun for that, and for box opening. Yes, I can quickly do killer damage with it, but not in 1 single shot.

Shotgun is fun for C, because you kind of get a similar feeling like you got the PSO Rafoie, or the PSO Spread-Needle(the good solo application of it), for a time. A good stress reliever for a quick solo vaunt.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-03 13:07 ]

pionear

Apr 3, 2007, 03:10 PM

I like the Shotgun. And with Dark, they can infect/kill enemies faster.

And it seems like the Shotgun level up my SUV gauge faster for some reason.

Jey

Apr 3, 2007, 05:53 PM

On 2007-04-03 12:59, Akaimizu wrote:
Good to know that SE3 actually works on Bil De Vears. Looks like I'm really going to have some crazy fun with my Crossbows, once I get shock to level 21. I hope they land the status well enough. I don't like staying too close to anything. Fortunately Bil De Vears aren't exactly the princes of range.

[slight derail]
Well, just gotta remember Confuse and Shock (and Incapacitation and prolly Silence, for that matter) don't work on anything bigger than a Gaozoran :x
[/slight derail]

When De Ragnus S was the hot place to be, I used shock Xbow a lot on those packs of Volfus. Was nice. Maybe shock Shotgun might have worked just as well, but I wouldn't want to stand still to find out.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 3, 2007, 06:29 PM

On 2007-04-03 13:05, Akaimizu wrote:
Actually, as you approach 70, you kind of have to *remember pinpoint* weapons that *don't* cut down lower rank mobs nicely.

Sometimes, when I'm doing that and helping lower-level folks, I have to specifically remember to keep around a weapon that doesn't force high damage and fire carefully. I keep around a single handgun for that, and for box opening. Yes, I can quickly do killer damage with it, but not in 1 single shot.

Shotgun is fun for C, because you kind of get a similar feeling like you got the PSO Rafoie, or the PSO Spread-Needle(the good solo application of it), for a time. A good stress reliever for a quick solo vaunt.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-03 13:07 ]

hee hee. thank god for c rank wands and debuffs. I am helping a buddy get up to level, and if I pull out a shotgun he does not get his tags in. Buffing him, and debuffing enemies helps solve this little problem

RandomTask

Apr 4, 2007, 05:22 PM

Lets put it this way. I've got 2 shotgun and twin handgun PA's to level 30. Now that I have the Ultimate crossbow PA past 21, I don't use shotguns or twin handguns ever. They are obsolete. Ult crossbow PA owns all the other crossbow PA's even at level 30 against opposite elements. At low health, I'm doing 400 damage x3 against any element. That isn't even critical. For anything out of reach, I pull out lv30 virus or killer shot.

Crossbow wins in everything. The End.

Jey

Apr 4, 2007, 06:32 PM

Whatcha use on Dulk Fakis and Magas Maggana?

*raises the "Be flexible in both mind and PAs!" banner*

Schubalts

Apr 4, 2007, 06:37 PM

Use whatever the hell weapons you personally like.

There.

I ended the topic.

Criss

Apr 5, 2007, 03:17 AM

I've played with those weapons for a while on my two main characters, and I personally find all of those weapons to be good in their own right. You just have to know when and how to use them.

Shotgun: Being the heavy-duty of the gunner's arsenal, the shotgun certainly is a pain to deal with when you need to take some evasive maneuvers. However, it's one of the best guns in the game damage-wise, considering you have bullets at 21+, especially if you're a cast or beast to take advantage of that 5-bullet base ATP multiplier. I've found that the best way to use this gun is in a party with 5-6 players, firing in a PSO-cannon style. No strafing, simply running inbetween enemies and quickly turning around to fire a blast in the enemy's back while your teammates keep the monster's attention. I've found that learning not to rely on strafing and quickly turning in the proper angle to fire all 5 bullets straight into the enemy is the best way to use the shotgun. Best suited for those well-accompanied that like to take advantage of the chaos, get up close and personal, then end it with a big bang.

Twin Handguns: Twins might be capped at level 2 SE, but their range, mobility, moderate damage, and pretty good PP regen and capacity make them an awesome all-around weapon. Despite the low SE level, the two simultaneous bullets make them very reliable in quickly applying a SE to small to medium-sized monsters at very good range. They are extremely useful in evading and quickly retaliating against those annoying quick/jumping enemies (I'm looking at you, Go-Vahras...), and add in that they have better damage than rifles, and really good elemental % past lv 21, and you have the ideal weapon for keeping control over the battlefield all while dishing out the pain.

Crossbows: I'll say it straight out... xbows are an investment. Their bullets level rather slowly, are pretty much useless under level 11, and only decent until 21. But it's once you have gotten your bullets to level 21+ that this weapon truly shines. A xbow with lv 21+ bullets will allow you to fire 3 bullets per shot, deal out lv3 SEs, strafe around like you would with a handgun, all the while letting some PP regen on that handy wand/saber/dagger. With a very good base damage on the weapon itself and triple bullets to multiply your char's base ATP, the xbow is both a great damage-dealer (rivaled only by the cards in the left-handed guns department, and maybe machineguns on a beast or cast), and an excellent crowd-control tool. This is a must for any weapon setup where you use at least one saber/dagger/wand. The bullets are a pain to level, but once it's up there, you won't regret the time spent on it.

Theoderic

Apr 15, 2007, 01:33 AM

I've been trying things out to see what I enjoy doing, and honestly, I enjoy being able to support the team with SE (mostly shock and virus, maybe confusion on teknik using SEED) and pretty much doing as much damage as I can to help reduce the time spent on missions (Crossbow on groups and Grenade Launcher on De Ragan for example).

I have been looking at the expansion a lot, and I know that the content is unreleased. With that said, I have been torn between ForteGunner and GunTecher. I currently have a female Cast ForteGunner (10) and I have been thinking about switching because of how Guntecher is being fed great things in AoI. But I recently read your post where you compared the stats, as well as weapons, and I feel as though you are an excellent authority on ranged classes. I agree with why, weapons aside, ForteGunner is a better choice, and even moreso because I get a racial bonus. I was excluding Grenade Launcher from my weapons list to make the comparison. I love Crossbow. I also didn't see the point in having any other 1 handed gun PAs as the Crossbow seems to outperform all the other 1 handed guns. I also use Saber as my right melee weapon, mainly because I find it to be useful using Rising Strike on certain SEED that are much less of a threat while flipped over, but are a pain to drop a Grenade on. Should I be using a dagger? Do you think the crowd control aspect of Whip might be worth replacing Saber in spite of the significantly lower attack? Maybe Slicer would be more along the damage lines, and with a Giga / Bullet PP Save I could maybe do melee damage to multiple body parts on bullet resistant SEED without using a PA.

I tried Mechgun but it lacks longevity.
I never tried Laser Cannon because I honestly couldn't see where it would be usefull, given that I don't really solo, and if I do, I find Crossbow to be more than enough to handle the groups by either quickly eliminating SEED one by one, and/or applying status rather frequently to a group, not to mention that the 3 up close shots put SE3 on even faster.

My Bulletmaster and Phantom do roughly the same damage with the same element of the same level, and ForteGunner does get access to S Rank Rifles. When I use Twin Handguns for herding, Crossbow can do it better. When using it on flying creatures, Rifle can do it better. I do 260 avg with Phantom, to Jarba in CBS2. With Twin Handgun, I do 132 avg x2. With Bullets rising to level 40, I realize that the elemental percent may be the best, I believe that the stats of an S Rank Rifle, even the easiest one to come by, will allow me to do more damage than the Twins, finally. I understand where a lot of the styles of gameplay suit the various players, but I decided that the mobility of the Crossbow allows me to maneuver around enemies up close more efficiently with my Saber. I can rotate while only holding L1, and then hold R1 to Crossbow things from behind or the side, out of melee range/arc, or I can juggle them and apply status while they're down. Because of the high DPS on Crossbow, I draw more attention than Twin Handguns do, which helps the party, and I usually use Shock or Confuse, depending on the types of enemies. I placed 4 Crossbows on my palette, and I threw on my DoT Bullets, and realized that once I break the 2 bullet section, I can be even more effective at defending with Shock/Confuse and DPS with Burn/Infect. If there is an enemy I can't get close to or prefer not to, I see that Rifle can do the job. I might want to add another one on my palette to keep from using Photon Chargers mid-mission (although it might be kind of hard to get 2 of the same S Rank...). I don't see a point for any other weapons, excluding Grenade launcher, that would make any sense for me. I have tried to incorporate versatility and DPS together, as well as maintain PP longevity. Rifle will drop a flying boss faster because of the faster rate of fire. Maybe Twin Handguns would be better for a GunTecher, obviously because of rank, but even better than Bows for bosses since SEs do not apply to them and Bows in FPS mode shoot slower than Twin Handguns. I really considered twin Handgun at least for 'Zalure', so I may keep one on my palette. I might not have to carry 2 Rifles with me because for what I use Rifle on, I mostly only run out of PP on it when I am in the last block, and I think the higher attack I will have at higher levels will counter this. It may be kind of boring with Grenade, Rifle, and Crossbow as my only guns, but I am trying to maximise my ability with just what I have on my palette. None of the available choices of ranged weapons available to ForteGunner seem to be more valuable than these, and although I do not get an S Rank in Crossbow, there is always the PP conservation that will make up for not being able to use S Rank in them. Hmm... I'm going to go and buy the 'Zalure' Bullet now and I replacing my other Twin with a Crossbow/Saber combo...

Next issue: Should I replace Saber with Dagger? I heard that there was a Dagger PA that knocked SEED down. How is that compared to a Saber's PA? Also, how is the damage output and attack speed on a dagger's full combo compared to a Saber's full combo (normal attacks and PAs)?