Official game balance debate (Long post)

[XDeviousX]

Game balance now:

Cast:
Highest: Ata, Dfp, sta
second best: ATP, hp
third best: n/a
Last: Mst, Tp, evd

Beast:
Highest: Atp, Hp, sta
second best: dfp
Third best: mst, tp, evd
Last: ata

Newman:
Highest: mst, tp, evd, sta
second best: ata
third best: dfp
Last: atp, hp

Humans:
Highest: Sta
second best: dfp, evd, mst, tp
third best: atp, ata, hp
Last:na

This is based on information from here and psupedia. Highest stats get A and lowest get D. Every class gets an A stamina so if we were to rank each stat by points, 4 points for A through 1 point for D and a zero for stamina since everyone gets and A in it, the results are:


Casts: 17 points
Beasts: 18 points
Newmans: 19 points
Humans: 18 points

that Means Newmans are technically ahead on the character stat food chain and casts are last. On the surface this would be fine except here is were the percieved flaws is ST's game balance comes from:

BEASTS have great power and hp and good defense making them melee kings and since their mental abilities are decent fortefighter and wartecher seem to fit this class..

HUMANS are second best in alll defensive and tech stregnth and third place in all offensive stats and hp making them generally sturdy for melee and ranger classes and allows them to lean towards casting classes with their high tp making them versital and best suited for protranser and decent at anything else.

CASTS have great accuracy and defense and the second best power meaning any ranger or melee class can be effective but especially fortegunner and fighgunner.

NEWMANS have a great tp and mst making them great force users and the second best accuracy meaning ranger classes aren't too bad so fortetecher and guntecher are great choices.

The problem people have with Newmans as i see is their lack of hp and defense, but evd for a force is better then dfp! If more Newman forces maxed their evd they'd realized techs still casts when forces evade attacks!!! Zero damage plus techs go off!! That is a huge crack!!! Casts get high physicals stats but seriously they should because their basically living machines! They are not better then beasts at melee classes even with higher ata. A beast's damage and hp are suited to give and recieve damage. Beasts are built to take a lot of damage and return it in greater value while cast are made to do consistant damage at a lower value. If a beast and a cast attack 100 times the cast will hit say 90% of the time and the beast 80% but the beast will out damage a cast at the end anyways... Newmans can be effective melee fighters if they remember their higher evade score, this gives you a chance to block a hit and manuever your character for better hits meaning newmans should be able to avoid most hits and move around to get better angles for attacks. the "speed" and "skill" is yours to apply to your character as newmans rarely miss and should rarely get hit. Every newman fighter I see waists their money of defensive units instead of evasion ones. If people realized their stregnths and stop trying to compensate for their "weaknesses" they'd see there are easier ways to play their race/type combos. Newmans will own with high evade and quick striking weapons, daggers, twin daggers, and sabers. For their two handed choices spears are quicker then swords in regular and PA attacks and have better range to avoid going too far into combat...


To sum up:

Nobody is more gimped/better then anyone else and ALL races can play ANY type but have to play to their stregnths. Just look at your stats and what weapons your starting type has as a guide to any class you evolve into and rely on those stregnths... Too many people play this game based on how the race "best suited" to a type plays the game and not how their race MIGHT best play that specific type. [/rant]


Any thoughts?

[Gryffin]

OH SNAP!

Nah I just wish Humans had more ATP, but I'm just saying that 'cause I can't think of anything better/productive to say.

XD

[XDeviousX]

The only stat I would change is Beasts getting the lowest evd and cast get it third lowest since beast are made to take damage and return it and evade stops attacks...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-04-10 15:32 ]</font>

[DEM_CIG]

Casts suck in stats omg...

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, one of the stats that Newmans are best at, TP is completely useless once you go outside of Force. And one of the things of this game is being able to choose anything you want. Also, people complain about Evasion and with MST, same w/ TP, isn't so great once you're not a Force type. You have to realize that not all Newmans are going to be Fortetechers.

[XDeviousX]

On 2007-04-10 15:38, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, one of the stats that Newmans are best at, TP is completely useless once you go outside of Force. And one of the things of this game is being able to choose anything you want. Also, people complain about Evasion and with MST, same w/ TP, isn't so great once you're not a Force type. You have to realize that not all Newmans are going to be Fortetechers.




Evasions negates damage meaning a Newmans highest evade is amazing especially since some techs can be evaded. The prod and cons to defense is you take less damage but can still attack and with evade you take no damage and give none, unless your casting!!! Newman's higher evade and accuracy make them great dodge and counter attack fighters. Not all the best melee fighters are brute force! Newmans can make amazing fighters as all the weapons with the lower atp requirements have the better pp for their weapon levels...

[DEM_CIG]

yeah, but ata is pointless/ and no one needs sta...

[Raysa]

ATA is hot. I love not seeing 0's on my screen http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[XDeviousX]

On 2007-04-10 15:44, DEM_CIG wrote:
yeah, but ata is pointless/ and no one needs sta...



Stamina is HIGHLY important because it gauges how often you get status effected and how long it lasts....

ATA is great for not missing...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-04-10 15:47 ]</font>

[TorterraEndor]

ATA is only a problem for two reasons

1) Being able to equip guns
2) Hitting BEES

Other than that, ATA is no problem, there might be the odd miss, but its never horrendously troublesome.

[PJ]

On 2007-04-10 15:38, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, one of the stats that Newmans are best at, TP is completely useless once you go outside of Force. And one of the things of this game is being able to choose anything you want. Also, people complain about Evasion and with MST, same w/ TP, isn't so great once you're not a Force type. You have to realize that not all Newmans are going to be Fortetechers.



MST is great no matter WHAT class you are, so the only useless stat outside force is TP.

[XDeviousX]

On 2007-04-10 15:48, TorterraEndor wrote:
ATA is only a problem for two reasons

1) Being able to equip guns
2) Hitting BEES

Other than that, ATA is no problem, there might be the odd miss, but its never horrendously troublesome.



Unless your miss your target and your strike put you in range to be counter-attacked...

ATA is important to people that rely on skill such as newman hunters or casts in general...





MST is great no matter WHAT class you are, so the only useless stat outside force is TP.



True.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-04-11 11:34 ]</font>

[XDeviousX]

Had to bump this, but I'm not gonna reply to every post about races being unbalanced when I can just add a comprehensive topic to the mix that replies to all 100 posts about game unbalance...

[CyarVictor]

It doesn't matter what you play as in any combination. It's how you use em. It's how skillful you are at that combination of race and class. Just people whine and complain cause they can't use their character correctly. I wish there was a chart like the old pso where you can see stats at certain levels like every 5 and a class. Like a chart with all lv80 races and each race catergory will show the race with the a class at 10 so you can compare classes on every race and see the difference. I'm just curious on class per race to see what makes em unique other than skill, bullet, tech, and weapon selections.

It really comes down to how you play. Nothing more, nothing less.

[SolomonGrundy]

anyone who thinks ata is not an issue should try playng a beast w/an axe.

I miss all the time, and I have an arm unit equipped, the Photon art @ level 30, and am "high" level.

[KamiSori]

^ one of the reasons i think beasts make better fighgunners and wartechers. i made my beast FF and i didnt like the slowness of the class nor the horribly weak ATA. i imagine casts are a lot better as FF.

[XDeviousX]

On 2007-04-11 16:20, KamiSori wrote:
^ one of the reasons i think beasts make better fighgunners and wartechers. i made my beast FF and i didnt like the slowness of the class nor the horribly weak ATA. i imagine casts are a lot better as FF.



Casts do hit more but when a beast hits, they hit HARD, but the low ATA could be fixed if they rebalaced the fortefighters weapons, at least for beasts, give them a bonus in ATA to use Axes, sword, and fists. Just a random thought...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-04-12 17:58 ]</font>

[Serephim]

Hopefully most problems we have with the racial disbalancing will be solved in the expansion, but for now i believe that its just a fact that newmans are dead meat in other clases other than anything that doesnt nuke whatever gets to them.

[Hozanto]

On 2007-04-10 15:38, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, one of the stats that Newmans are best at, TP is completely useless once you go outside of Force.

.... so dont!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hozanto on 2007-04-14 02:33 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-04-11 11:39, SolomonGrundy wrote:
anyone who thinks ata is not an issue should try playng a beast w/an axe.

I miss all the time, and I have an arm unit equipped, the Photon art @ level 30, and am "high" level.



Well, just because you're a [Beast] Fortefighter doesn't mean you HAVE to use an axe. On my Beast, I only use Twin Claws, Single Claws, and Fists, which are weapons that Fortefighter gets S on, and have good ATA. He NEVER even touched an axe in his entire career as a Fortefighter. I think Axes may be more suitible for Newmans[Yes, I'm not joking, I'm seriously saying Newmans as in Newman Fortefighter] and CASTs, although I won't stop Beasts from using them either.

And Hozanto, please, just STFU. It's one thing to say that Newmans shouldn't be buffed or whatever, its another thing to criticize those who choose to make a wrong type for a Newman.

[Schubalts]

On 2007-04-14 05:34, Shiroryuu wrote:

On 2007-04-11 11:39, SolomonGrundy wrote:
anyone who thinks ata is not an issue should try playng a beast w/an axe.

I miss all the time, and I have an arm unit equipped, the Photon art @ level 30, and am "high" level.



Well, just because you're a [Beast] Fortefighter doesn't mean you HAVE to use an axe. On my Beast, I only use Twin Claws, Single Claws, and Fists, which are weapons that Fortefighter gets S on, and have good ATA. He NEVER even touched an axe in his entire career as a Fortefighter. I think Axes may be more suitible for Newmans[Yes, I'm not joking, I'm seriously saying Newmans as in Newman Fortefighter] and CASTs, although I won't stop Beasts from using them either.

And Hozanto, please, just STFU. It's one thing to say that Newmans shouldn't be buffed or whatever, its another thing to criticize those who choose to make a wrong type for a Newman.



Seconding the Newmans with axes thing. Level 63, Fortefighter 8, and I hit about 70-80% percent of the time.

[Mikaga]

On 2007-04-14 02:32, Hozanto wrote:

On 2007-04-10 15:38, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, one of the stats that Newmans are best at, TP is completely useless once you go outside of Force..... so dont!
In which case you can't really say it's fair that a Cast can go outside of Ranger.

Because Casts are a Ranger's version of Force's Newman.

Or at least, they're meant to be. Instead the can also switch to fighter types (lol Newman, joo cant) and pwn Human at the "jack of all trades" game. So fair.

[PJ]

Look, let's not get over analytical and say

CASTs are the jack of 2 trades, definately not the Force trade. Why you keep insisting they take humans place as jack of all trades is stupid.

[TorterraEndor]

No, PJ, you're clearly wrong. Jack of all trades means being good at all the classes you're good at! It surely doesn't mean you're versatile, and can switch to any class without being seriously gimped!

You're such a fool, hahaha!

[PJ]

Well, DAMNIT, GOD, I hate being wrong all the time and sucking http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[TorterraEndor]

Well, you are wrong and suck!

You're so dumb if you think HUs and RAs are directly related, being that RAs use single handed melee weapons with their left handed guns! You're so stupid for thinking FOs are totally off in the other direction with techs!

[PJ]

I... I guess Mikaga's right. The game isn't balanced. Shit.

Time to make my newman a Fortetecher and sit on my ass at a computer, whine and bitch all day of a system that's broken beyond belief, cause it so clearly is http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

PSU sucks http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Tra]

XDeviousX hella fails lol

[Sekani]

On 2007-04-14 12:06, PJ wrote:
I... I guess Mikaga's right. The game isn't balanced. Shit.

Time to make my newman a Fortetecher and sit on my ass at a computer, whine and bitch all day of a system that's broken beyond belief, cause it so clearly is http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

PSU sucks http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif


<3

[DummieAcount]

I just wanna add that if we use your shitty 80% 90% theory craft math and give them an equally proportional attack difference then the damage would even out with an equal number of attacks.

[XDeviousX]

On 2007-04-14 12:07, Tra wrote:
XDeviousX hella fails lol



Is this 4th grade?



On 2007-04-14 15:37, DummieAcount wrote:
I just wanna add that if we use your shitty 80% 90% theory craft math and give them an equally proportional attack difference then the damage would even out with an equal number of attacks.



I was using a generalize gues on hit% but I would assume somebody at ST did a game balance check with damage/accuracy with all the races with all classes... A lot of people think Beast fortegunners are better then casts as ata isn't so extreme of a stat to stop any race from using ranged weapons at decent levels... A newman trying to use an Axe will be at a higher lvl then a beast trying to use an A ranked riffle. My lvl 63 Beast could use just about ALL S-Ranked Riffles. (If they were out) and I have a friend who is a level 62 human prottranser and he can't use a 7* Axe but he can use any gun he hass access too.

The point? ATA restrictions aren't as big a gap as ATP restrictions...