PSU: Don't call that a reskin please

[SabZero]

This best goes in rants, so here.

Many people insist on accusing PSU of making extensive use of "reskinning". Reskinning means putting different textures on a 3D model in order to create (or feign) variety. One example is regular Badiras in Parum relics, versus the lightning Badiras in "Rescue Hyuga" story mission.

Now, you can't call a Volfu a reskin of an Ollaka. Same with the new big bots in AoI, saying they're reskins of Grinna Betes. That's not correct. It's clearly a different model (and textures). It might have the same behaviour.

Having said that, there's not a lot of reskinning in PSU (and the places it happens, it actually makes sense), so please stop saying that.

*steps off soap box*

[CupOfCoffee]

But... "same behavior, different look" is the definition of reskinning. It doesn't just apply to colors--it's like, no matter how different the body looks, if you can tell it's arms still move the same way and it does basically the same attacks, that's a reskin. I haven't played a terribly huge amount of PSU, but I can't say I've ever seen someone call something a reskin and actually be wrong about it.

[Mixfortune]

Different color schemes are not a reskin, and a reskin is not a different model.

A different color scheme is obvious.

A reskin would use the same model shape, but would have different details on the flat skin itself, such as markings, a different face, or what have you. Just changing the color scheme would not accomplish this, as it wouldn't make new markings or indications appear.

If you're making solid additions, such as, say, larger shoulderblades or wings, this would take a different model completely. You can't skin to add wings, for example, because there's no form for it there on the original.

That's just coming from the non-gaming perspective, though since I'm no expert I might be wrong on a point somewhere, but I think I got the basics of it down. Now, if you're talking from the playing the game perspective, that might be a little different.

Though really, I'd imagine it best to ask someone who actually does model work and could clear misconceptions.

[DizzyDi]

When it comes to PSU, when someone is calling an enemy a reskin of a another, they don't mean it literally.
They don't mean that ST just swapped the colors, it means that its the SAME DAMN ENEMY with maybe some wings added or some spikes or whatever.
Sure this new enemy might have more hp, he might hit harder, but he has the same behavior patterns has another previously encountered one.

[TorterraEndor]

Welcome to videogames.

[SabZero]

I'm not complaining that there are similar enemies (some people are though, that's ok).

Even a similar behaviour pattern in PSU doesn't mean the monsters behave *exactly* the same. Like Go-Vahras kind of hop around like Golmoros, right? It's not exactly the same though. Volfus and Ollakas don't behave the exact sme way either. I think they use the same base pattern of behaviour with parameters. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

I think Mixfortune added nicely to the reskinning definition (there isn't one on a wiki, as far as my search told me)...

[Neith]

Reskinning can involve manipulating the model mesh to an extent so it looks slightly different. In that aspect, a PSO Gobooma could be a classed as a 'reskin' of a Booma.

If the enemy acts the same, it's not reskinning. That's an AI issue.

[DraginHikari]

Most games in general use this setup. Mostly because one it saves the need to program every invindual Enemies AI, it's easier to do, and it saves space on the game overall. Tweaking a enemy base slightly is usually simplier then building a new base.

[Mixfortune]

On 2007-04-14 10:35, DizzyDi wrote:
When it comes to PSU, when someone is calling an enemy a reskin of a another, they don't mean it literally.
They don't mean that ST just swapped the colors, it means that its the SAME DAMN ENEMY with maybe some wings added or some spikes or whatever.
Sure this new enemy might have more hp, he might hit harder, but he has the same behavior patterns has another previously encountered one.



Right, I was just adding in from another angle since it seemed that discrepancy was being brought up and wanted to clear it up a little before a potential back-and-forth discussion consumed the thread.

'Reskins' in the game sense isn't that uncommon anyways, especially in RPGs where it tends to stand out. However, I think we tend to notice, or give more weight to these reskins when it's in a slightly faster pace, 3d action environment over a 2d, menu driven battle system. We interact more with these creatures, models, and AI in a direct sense, and so being creative is a strong field to work in. It shows a bit more when things feel reused.

[McLaughlin]

On 2007-04-14 10:56, SabZero wrote:
I'm not complaining that there are similar enemies (some people are though, that's ok).

Even a similar behaviour pattern in PSU doesn't mean the monsters behave *exactly* the same. Like Go-Vahras kind of hop around like Golmoros, right? It's not exactly the same though. Volfus and Ollakas don't behave the exact sme way either. I think they use the same base pattern of behaviour with parameters. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

I think Mixfortune added nicely to the reskinning definition (there isn't one on a wiki, as far as my search told me)...



We're talking about things like Ollaka and Koltova. Tengohg and Jusgagen (spelled that wrong). Badira and Ageeta. They look similar and behave the same. That's a "reskin" in my books.

[Kent]

Skinning is the process in which you map the movements of vertices in a 3D model to something like a bone system, in order to make animating a lot easier. A "skin" is just a list of which vertices are attached how much to which bone's movement.

So... Is the transition from Koltova to Ollaka a reskin? It's highly unlikely that there aren't any changes to be made for the skin, when applying it to the new model - different polygon counts, different vertices, and different numbers on said vertices, that are unaccounted for on the already-existing skin.

So, unless the model is exactly the same, and only the actual textures are different... It's probably reskinned. Otherwise, it's just re-textured.

Regardless, it's more or less just recycled content, anyway.

[Skuda]

Enemies that have the same animations and skeletal rig should be considered reskins. It's incredibly easy to switch out different models onto the same skeletal rig as long as they have similar proportions.

It's an easy way of cutting corners.

Zoul Goug is a reskin of De Ragen. De ragnus is not. De ragnus has a different skeleton, because of the second head. It's behaviour is also quite different, dispite the similar look.

There are legitimate reasons for calling other creatures "reskins". A lot of the enemies look and act very similar. ST kinda.. dropped the ball on enemy creativity. It's almost like they were looking to cut corners. Take Bul Buna and Goshin for example. Did ST really need TWO worms? One is plenty.. They could have been a lot more creative than that. Make a whole new type of monster for Neudaiz, and leave the Bul Buna be.

It just bugs me, ya know? It's almost as bad as the old recoloured enemies we are so used to seeing in RPGs. OH! OH! It's so much stronger just because it's a different colour!@!! SNAP!

Reskinning I do advocate, is the S2 monster reskins. It was fucking awesome for PSO, and they made if fucking awesome for PSU. Go Vahra, Olgohmon.. they look freaking wicked!

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-04-14 23:57, Skuda wrote:
It just bugs me, ya know? It's almost as bad as the old recoloured enemies we are so used to seeing in RPGs. OH! OH! It's so much stronger just because it's a different colour!@!! SNAP!


Honestly, it's very much the same thing as the old fashioned Palette Swap from older games. Honestly it doesn't bother me very much. It might have been nice to see entirely different enemies on all three planets; maybe only Parum has slapping creatures, only Neudaiz has ankle-biters, and only Moatoob has worms. That might have been neat, but all things considered, it doesn't seem like any two planets really have the same combinations of enemies.

[Soukosa]

Different enemies that may seem similar usually have small differences. Like Distovas will charge around while Ollakas will run circles and leap at you yet they're still not the same as Volfus since they will sit around at times. With the worms, Goshins will move around alot more than Bul Bunas which have a tendency to sit there and barf foie at you.

Very few similar enemies are exactly the same in the AI.

Heck, even different elemental versions of enemies can be different. Ice Bil De Vears will attack noticably faster than the earth ones. Earth Vandas won't stand around picking their noses and fling Diga at you but rather they'll run up to you at a speed faster than the fire ones and cast Gidiga non-stop. Lightning Distovas will fire Zonde at you, lighting Shagreeces will cast Gizonde at times, and lightning Go Badiras can inflict shock via physical attacks.

Consider it lazy if you must, but it still gives variety to the game and saves time so they can put in more variety into the game. Besides, everyone else does it >.>

[Mystil]

On 2007-04-14 10:35, DizzyDi wrote:
When it comes to PSU, when someone is calling an enemy a reskin of a another, they don't mean it literally.
They don't mean that ST just swapped the colors, it means that its the SAME DAMN ENEMY with maybe some wings added or some spikes or whatever.
Sure this new enemy might have more hp, he might hit harder, but he has the same behavior patterns has another previously encountered one.



Finally he posts something I can agree with.

Vandas, and Vahra are NOTORIOUSLY REUSED AND REDSIGNED monster families in PSU. Notoriously.

[Garroway]

So your complaint, if I am not mistaken, isn't that you feel that people are judging PSU to harshly for cutting the same corners every other game does; but because you feel they use innacurate terminology? I would think that their arguments are valid reguardless of how they chose to express them as long as their views were adequately communicated. In this instance it seems they were.

As for the term "skinning" or "reskin" I believe Kents' explanation is pretty close to a textbook deffinition (as if he looked it up or something, who does that?) but the actual usage does tend to vary. Admittedly I've only been working as a modeler for around 6 months so I can't speak for the industry as if I am experienced, but it seems that different shops tend to use words like "skinning" or "rigging" or "morphing" in the context of the software packages that they use, so it would seem that debating the usage without knowlege of said context is pointless.

[SabZero]

Yes, it's about terminology, and the implied devalueing of the game. *shrug* Thats a rant for ya http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Collar]

On 2007-04-14 07:40, SabZero wrote:
This best goes in rants, so here.

Many people insist on accusing PSU of making extensive use of "reskinning". Reskinning means putting different textures on a 3D model in order to create (or feign) variety. One example is regular Badiras in Parum relics, versus the lightning Badiras in "Rescue Hyuga" story mission.

Now, you can't call a Volfu a reskin of an Ollaka. Same with the new big bots in AoI, saying they're reskins of Grinna Betes. That's not correct. It's clearly a different model (and textures). It might have the same behaviour.

Having said that, there's not a lot of reskinning in PSU (and the places it happens, it actually makes sense), so please stop saying that.

*steps off soap box*



"Unless the entirety of the model is different, (including: texture, skin, and bonework), applying a new design over an existing framework of joints and animation cycles is still called 'reskinning' - even if you DO change a variable here or there in terms of how much damage a critter does, (as that's not part of the model at all, rather, a table of things it has access to that are separate).

You're simply changing the visual appearance of something that acts and behaves in the same way. It works like this - I could rip the skin off of your bones, and apply buldgy, cancerous skin in its place, and make you look like something out of the Hunchback of Notre Dame - but you'd still be the same person, and behave in the same way. Well, you'd probably be screaming bloody murder, but that's beside the point.

A 'model' is an entire, individual work piece. From its animations, to its internal workings and structure in which those animations use, to the design work that goes on the outside, and how that design work is influenced and moved by its internal workings, (bones).

I work in Maya in my freetime. I've done a few models for UT2k4, blahblah. Nothing impressive, but that's how it works. :3



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Collar on 2007-04-17 07:46 ]</font>