Why only newmen and humans excel at Acrotecher.

[-Shimarisu-]

OK, this guide is based on CURRENT STATS in beta, which may change but right now here's a little piece of persuasion to make those beast/cast WTs looking at AT stats and thinking of going AT, THINK AGAIN.

Here's some solid facts right here. Wartecher is not a teching heavy class. Put it on newman (christ, you should not) and it will achieve, WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS, at best 60% the potential damage of fortetecher as well as roughly 60% the melee damage of fortefighter using the same weapons.

Focus on the area that does the most damage, melee, and put it on a beast or cast, and WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS you will achieve 75%-80% atp damage of fortefighter, and 50% tech damage of fortetecher. Which is, IMO the way to go. On this class the melee will always outdamage the tech, so if you want to see big numbers you should not play newman.

Ah, but here's why ACROTECHER will be fine on a newman.

Acrotecher boasts:

1. Almost the same ATP as WT. IN fact IIRC it's slightly more, which is why casts and beasts are looking at it to fix their tech woes. Bad plan.

2. Almost the same TP as fortetecher. A little lower, but it's up there.

3. Level 30 attack techs, same as WT.

4. Level 20 melee PAs.

5. Level 30 gun PAs.

People who only look at base stats are seeing this class as a replacement for WT. People who look at only base stats are ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG.

Here are the downsides to AT vs WT for tech crippled classes.

1. Almost the same ATP as WT right? Ah but your melee potential goes down, way down. You see that damage 75% figure you can attain as WT? Play AT as beast/cast and your melee goes down to the equivalent of a newman playing WT. The key is all in the PA modifier, your PAs now go up to only level 20. Which may seem like the same damage you were doing as WT BEFORE ILLUMINOUS, indeed it is, but as a potential output compared to the boosted numbers FF gets in Illuminous, you're going to look horribly gimp. WT will surpass your melee damage considerably. Add to that the fact that ALL ACROTECHER CAN EQUIP IS DAGGER, DOUBLE DAGGERS WHIP AND SABER. That is IT.

Verdict: you're sacrificing too much melee potential for a (crippled) boost in TP.

2. AT also gets level 30 attack techs, only 10 points below fortetecher. Coupled with only marginally lower TP than fortetecher, this means the damage potential on tech for human/newman isn't much lower than fortetecher, in fact the main area you'll lose out on is tech range. However as a class focussed on tech with melee as secondary attack to finish off statussed enemies, this is fine. As human or newman, you might manage 80% the damage of fortetecher. With much more robust stats and level 50 support, you'll solo FAR better than FT.

In the hands of a cast or beast? Well, for a start, WITH WEAPON EQUIPPED ON BOTH, your tech damage will be 60% that of fortetecher. VS the 80% of human or newman? Face it, this is not good.

The melee of human or newman WILL be weaker than beast or cast, but only marginally so and it is not the main focus of the race, unlike Wartecher.

From this post yuou can draw the following conclusions.

When you take a race that's weak in area A, high in area B and take on a merged class that boosts area A and gimps area B, you become sub par in BOTH areas.

A newman WT achieves roughly 60% melee, 60% tech potential.
A beast WT achieves 75-80% melee, 50% tech potential.

AT SHOULD use tech more than melee, as that's where it gets the big numbers.

A WT should use melee more than tech, EVEN ON NEWMAN, so it is preferable to play an ATP heavy race.

But put AT on an ATP heavy race, you achieve roughly the result of putting WT on a newman.

A beast AT achieves roughly 60% melee, 60% tech potential. Yep that's right.
A newman AT achieves roughly 50% melee, 80% tech potential. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Please guys, AT isn't going to fix the low tech of WT on a beast. It is not a fix for your lower teching potential (which I must remind you, is 3/4s that of newman WT anyway.)

Please, please stay WT. AT is a role for the humans and newmans.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-16 16:37 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-16 16:38 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

Focus on the area that does the most damage, melee, and put it on a beast or cast, and WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS you will achieve 75%-80% atp damage of fortefighter, and 50% tech damage of fortetecher. Which is, IMO the way to go.

I'd like to see some hard numbers please. I calculated WT Newman TP + wand, vs fT Newman TP + Wand, ten multiplied through with tech damage 20, and 30), then further added the 1.15, and 1.2 of the buff for each class, and ended up with almost 2/3rds (66%), not 60%.

Also, when you say that beast/cast is 75-80% of fortefighters, are you counting both jobs with the buffs? Do you factor in the higher miss %? (Male fF casts have almost 50 more ATA that male WT cast...).

[-Shimarisu-]

I was counting solo. If you are partying in big parties with WT, you are not in the right role.

[Tra]

1. Almost the same ATP as WT right? Ah but your melee potential goes down, way down. You see that damage 75% figure you can attain as WT? Play AT as beast/cast and your melee goes down to the equivalent of a newman playing WT. The key is all in the PA modifier, your PAs now go up to only level 20. Which may seem like the same damage you were doing as WT BEFORE ILLUMINOUS, indeed it is, but as a potential output compared to the boosted numbers FF gets in Illuminous, you're going to look horribly gimp. WT will surpass your melee damage considerably. Add to that the fact that ALL ACROTECHER CAN EQUIP IS DAGGER, DOUBLE DAGGERS WHIP AND SABER. That is IT.


De ja vu Shimarisu? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[-Shimarisu-]

This is a copy/paste of my previous post on the subject.

A lot of these figures are rounded off and don't take every situation into account, so Solomon, if you are getting 66% tech vs FT, then fine. Just please switch to AT when Illuminous hits k? Your newman WT will thank you for it.

Copy+paste of previous number crunching post now follows.

OK here's my proof, kiddies.

Let's go beast male vs male newman to be fair, even though I know newman WTs are mostly female.

Beast male WT stats, 80/10.

HP: 2477
ATP: 673 vs 80/10 beast fortefighter's 901
ATA: 179
TP: 472 vs 80/10 male newman FT's 1254
DEF: 163
EVP: 374
MST: 119
STA: 10

576

Newman male WT stats, 80/10.

HP: 2003
ATP: 528 vs 80/10 beast fortefighter's 901
ATA: 234
TP: 821 vs 80/10 male newman FT's 1254
DEF: 140
EVP: 453
MST: 269
STA: 10

Now. The trouble with most people who only look at base stats is they look at these stats and see more bigger numbers in the newman field, and think that automatically makes newman a better WT. Ah, if only that were the case.

Let's view why it's not the case, shall we?

The numbers that mean the most in this role are the ATP and TP. Defensive stats are sky high no matter the race playing it. WT truly is a tank.

WT's greatest damage output also comes from its daggers, hands down: Let's crunch some numbers. Assuming for arguments sake that we are using a fairly easy to attain weapon, a katsuno zashi which are the best daggers WT can equip. Let's assume they also have a fairly non challenging to aquire % of 28 elemental.

On a beast male WT, total ATP with weapon is now 875.

Total ATP modified against opposing monster element is 1163. (you actually get a 5% bonus gain when using any elemental weapons, so the correct ATP modifier is actually x1.33)

On a newman WT, we're looking at total ATP with weapon of 730.

Total ATP modified against opposing monster element is 970. Damage output DIFFERENCE is now starting to creep down with the % modifiers in place.

Let's look at the figures if we use Renkai Buyozan. Now, I THINK Renkai at lvl 20 is 120% damage modifier. I've forgotton due to the fact my bast WT on AoI is now sporting a 21+ Renkai. And my old figures for Renkai in the Perfect Bible are now outdated.

With Renkai, the total ATP of beast WT is now 1511. Newman ATP comes to 1261.

IF your daggers were 50% element (and many of mine WERE, back on PC when I could afford them), total beast ATP would be 1627, and newman would be 1314.

IF you used this same setup on a beast FORTEFIGHTER, with the 28% daggers you would have 1835 damage output with renkai lvl 30, and 2150 with 50%. Check that out.

Max potential with daggers on fortefighter is 2150, beast WT gets 1627 and newman gets 1314. That's WITHOUT shifta/agtarides. WITH shifta or and debuffs your damages SOLO as a WT come much closer to fortefighter IF you are beast. Also beast fortefighters can play the "I use agtarides when soling" cadr all they like, but realistically we KNOW that most of them aern't topping it up every time it runs out.

So perhaps I was a little unfair when I said newman was 50% the damage of fortefighter, when using the same weapons. More like 60%, but beast there is pushing over 75% proficiency.

WITH DIGA ON +10 W'gacros. I'll use this example because it is the tech most used by WTs. Well maybe foie is too, but let's look at these figures.

On beast male, total TP with weapon is 1048.
On newman male, total TP with weapon is 1397.

Total TP with diga level 20 for beast male WT=2640.
Total TP with diga level 20 for newman male WT=3520.

Huge difference huh? But bear in mind how slow diga is, how many targets it hits and just how much more damage daggers get over that figure. Add that the beast WT is STILL pumping out 3/4 the damage of newman.

VERSUS DIGA ON A FORTETECHER (this is key).

Total TP with diga level 30 for newman male FT=5124.

WT, with optimal TP (as newman) will only ever reach 2/3rds the tech potential of FT. If you solo, FT's ability to boost their techs with level 30 retier vs WT's lvl 20 is only more damning.
WT, with optimal ATP (as beast) will only ever reach 3/4s the ATP potential of FF. If you solo, the best FF can do is equal that, but they have to use agtarides. Not half as damning as WT vs. FT solo-wise.

So, newman WT has roughly 3/5ths the atp potential of pure, 2/3rds the TP potential.
Beast WT has 3/4 the atp, 1/2th the TP potential.

Either race will use ATP more than TP, it will account for MORE damage output. Melee is faster, it will hit more targets, it will MORE OFTEN damage for greater numbers than tech.

Newman doesn't get nanoblast, either.

In conclusion, beast makes a better WT than newman.

[EphekZ]

numbers aside, just telling from the PA limits, you can tell WT was increased for the players whom are more melee oriented(beasts and casts[maybe humans]) and AT is for the players who are more support oriented(humans and newmans)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2007-04-16 16:56 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

In fact, given their greater damage with whip, and very decent nuking ability coupled with the best support, AT might just prove the best class for human to play.

I'm trying to figure out who is better at it, human or newman. Going to be a close run contest. At least we finally have a hybrid class human excels at that cast cannot touch.

[Tra]

You know you forgot to add in what I've stated in the WT guide, not only the damage modifier that you're missing from that extra 10 PA levels, you're also missing the third combo.

You say you want to solo? I can tell you that Renkai... 1st combo hits 6 times, 2nd hits 6 times, 3rd hits 12 times along with a blowback. But mmm guess you don't mind that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Dus daggas, same thing. 1st part hits 4 times, 2nd hits 6, third hits 9 times. Each of those last 9 hits hit stronger than the rest. Try it yourself. You're missing a TON of ownage on big multiple target things that can't be knocked back if you don't have lv21 dus daggas for example. Want a video?

[Soukosa]

Glad someone has made a post like this. I'm getting tired of putting up with the idiots that think a beast or cast AT would be awesome and I just don't feel like trying to explain to them why >.>

As for the human/newman thing, I personally think they're about the same. It really depends upon what you want. A human one would be able to melee a bit better while a newman would rely more upon techs. I've played the class on both races for a bit too http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

You should also take into account that all expert classes (except FTs) got their stat mods buffed in AoI at lv 10. It won't change how AT is viewed but it can have an impact on WT.

The new WT 10 stat mods:
HP: 130%
ATP: 112%
ATA: 80%
TP: 112%
DFP: 122%
EVP: 160%
MST: 130%
STA: 100%

For a little comparison, if needed, AT lv 10 stat mods:
HP: 110%
ATP: 96%
ATA: 140%
TP: 130%
DFP: 100%
EVP: 210%
MST: 180%
STA: 100%

I'll let you draw the conclusions for it. You have a much better sense of seeing how a class works than 90% of the people here at least.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-16 17:13, Tra wrote:
You know you forgot to add in what I've stated in the WT guide, not only the damage modifier that you're missing from that extra 10 PA levels, you're also missing the third combo.

You say you want to solo? I can tell you that Renkai... 1st combo hits 6 times, 2nd hits 6 times, 3rd hits 12 times along with a blowback. But mmm guess you don't mind that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Dus daggas, same thing. 1st part hits 4 times, 2nd hits 6, third hits 9 times. Each of those last 9 hits hit stronger than the rest. Try it yourself. You're missing a TON of ownage on big multiple target things that can't be knocked back if you don't have lv21 dus daggas for example. Want a video?



Get out of my topic please, we're talking projected Illuminous stats anyway, not your boring WT hate.

WT is going to get that third combo in Illuminous. And newmen should still stick to AT.

My point stands on why newmen suck at WT, it will moreso in Illumuinous when they get a hybrid role they are better at.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-16 17:21, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2007-04-16 17:13, Tra wrote:
You know you forgot to add in what I've stated in the WT guide, not only the damage modifier that you're missing from that extra 10 PA levels, you're also missing the third combo.

You say you want to solo? I can tell you that Renkai... 1st combo hits 6 times, 2nd hits 6 times, 3rd hits 12 times along with a blowback. But mmm guess you don't mind that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Dus daggas, same thing. 1st part hits 4 times, 2nd hits 6, third hits 9 times. Each of those last 9 hits hit stronger than the rest. Try it yourself. You're missing a TON of ownage on big multiple target things that can't be knocked back if you don't have lv21 dus daggas for example. Want a video?



Get out of my topic please, we're talking projected Illuminous stats anyway, not your boring WT hate.

WT is going to get that third combo in Illuminous. And newmen should still stick to AT.

My point stands on why newmen suck at WT, it will moreso in Illumuinous when they get a hybrid role they are better at.




I am not talking about WT anymore, I am just helping out your point in saying AT's lack the melee power, can you comprehend? AT will have lv20 PAs, WT will have lv30, which was exactly the point I was making to help benefit yours. Maybe you shouldn't take things so seriously.

[-Shimarisu-]

Eh, OK then. WT is definitely getting changed for the better though. I see they have incresed tech at job level 10 now, but the melee side is still superior. So newman could be "OK" at WT too after expansion, but I still feel they fare better in the hands of beast or human. I'd put cast a little out of the picture now for WT, if they are getting increased tech.

AT is definitely a human/newman role.
WT is definitely more ATP orientated, but with increased TP they COULD be playable in the hands of newman now. I am still making my newman alternate between FT and AT. Especially given the fact I feel that putting all the WT capable melee PAs on him is an absolute waste of his capacity for tech.

[omegapirate2k]

I agree with pretty much everything you said in this topic, shim, and therefore I endorse this topic with the official omega seal of quality.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/omegapirate2000/OmegaSealOfQuality.png

[Tra]

The only thing that's gonna determine how good a wartecher is... how fortefighter fares, since they have lv40 PAs... but it looks like they're doing much better so far, at least they are able to outdamage fTs in the ranged department (not status effect yet though) finally.

[SolomonGrundy]

With regard to WT:
ok, thanks, those are th #s I was looking for. 2/3rd is the hard assesment I am sticking with


As for ArcoTecher:
I would say that the argument for Human/Newman AT is simple. High % modifier for TP, EVP, MST,

Looking though, the HP/ATP modifier of the class, coupled with high DFP of Casts, may turn this into another ranger alt. hybrid. (level 30 twin handgun bullets, and S rank cards).

Think about this: same ATP as the current Guntecher, *more* HP/DFP than the GT (and there are plenty of Cast GTs), 20% less ATA (but level 50 zodial, ftw), and SE 4 with foie 21+ (with a TP modifier that will allow even Casts to equip any wand they want)

Yep, I can forsee Cast AcroTecher. Beast AT not as much, but mebbe...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-16 18:29 ]</font>

[Kimil]

I'm still at least trying out AT as my beast. I KNOW I will do zero damage with attack techs and melee ( mostlikely cards too ) but... if I focus on support, my stats mean nothing at all ( except maybe for resta, but my +10 6* wands ( the tenora and GRM ones ), lvl 41+ retier andresta and a force unit should raise the resta output high ennough.

Infact, if I play support only as a beast AT ( Buffs, debuffs, revives, digaz/rentis, heals, reverser ) the only stat that will matter will be my high racial HP so I can take frontline positions.

Playstyle i'm guessing I'll do as a beast AT:

prior to fights:
- Shifta/Deband/Zodial/Retier and then Digas/Rentis the other members
- Heal if needed

Durring fights ( staying close to the hunters to act as healbot ):
- Zalure/Jellen/Zondeel everything in the room and keep enemy buffs down
- Heal when needed Resta/Reverser/Giresta
- If everyone is healthy, cause SE with dualies or Cards
-Rebuff if needed
- Digas/rentis continuasly
- Crowd control : Knock down eneies with certain melee PAs.
- Maybe through in a Gizonde for Shock or Dambarta for Freeze.

I KNOW I wont ever do more than half the damage of other players, but AT is primarily the support class anyways so I'll play it support only. As long as I leave the damage dealing to beast hunters or newm Forces and support them as they do, I shouldn't need to worry. I hope.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-04-16 21:10 ]</font>

[ShinMaruku]

AT will make Areshe-Nei complete.. XD

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-16 18:26, SolomonGrundy wrote:

With regard to WT:
ok, thanks, those are th #s I was looking for. 2/3rd is the hard assesment I am sticking with


As for ArcoTecher:
I would say that the argument for Human/Newman AT is simple. High % modifier for TP, EVP, MST,

Looking though, the HP/ATP modifier of the class, coupled with high DFP of Casts, may turn this into another ranger alt. hybrid. (level 30 twin handgun bullets, and S rank cards).

Think about this: same ATP as the current Guntecher, *more* HP/DFP than the GT (and there are plenty of Cast GTs), 20% less ATA (but level 50 zodial, ftw), and SE 4 with foie 21+ (with a TP modifier that will allow even Casts to equip any wand they want)

Yep, I can forsee Cast AcroTecher. Beast AT not as much, but mebbe...

The class is optimized for techs with some melee and geared towards relying on EVP... WHY THE FUCK DO YOU WANT TO USE A RACE THAT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY?

If you want to do ranged support, play a GT. Though, GT's TP mod almost doubles at lv 10 after AoI, so even human and newman GTs would out class casts still. Simple point being, casts and beasts weren't meant for support classes. If you want a support char, make a human or newman. (Don't bring up that the pointless buff argument, resta is far more important than the rest of the support spells).



On 2007-04-16 21:00, Kimil wrote:
I'm still at least trying out AT as my beast. I KNOW I will do zero damage with attack techs and melee ( mostlikely cards too ) but... if I focus on support, my stats mean nothing at all ( except maybe for resta, but my +10 6* wands ( the tenora and GRM ones ), lvl 41+ retier andresta and a force unit should raise the resta output high ennough.

Again, the class is geared towards techs... Beasts have pathetic TP even compared to a human, especially with that high of a TP mod. If you aren't using a race that suits the class well then you aren't gonna be helping the party much, especially if you're gonna be the main means of support. If you want to support so badly, make a race that's good for it. It's gonna be a couple months at least before AoI comes, you have time to make a new char.

[Zael]

Zael approves of this topic, and all of the OP's points.

[Alisha]

On 2007-04-16 17:48, Tra wrote:
The only thing that's gonna determine how good a wartecher is... how fortefighter fares, since they have lv40 PAs... but it looks like they're doing much better so far, at least they are able to outdamage fTs in the ranged department (not status effect yet though) finally.



old beast F 100/10 stats
hp:2823
atp:1003
ata:268
tp:173
dfp:242
evp:153
mst:69

AoI beast F 100/10 stats
hp:2954
atp:1097
ata:268
tp:207
dfp:242
evp:153
mst:91


male breaks 3k hp....

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-16 17:32, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Eh, OK then. WT is definitely getting changed for the better though. I see they have incresed tech at job level 10 now, but the melee side is still superior. So newman could be "OK" at WT too after expansion, but I still feel they fare better in the hands of beast or human. I'd put cast a little out of the picture now for WT, if they are getting increased tech.

AT is definitely a human/newman role.
WT is definitely more ATP orientated, but with increased TP they COULD be playable in the hands of newman now. I am still making my newman alternate between FT and AT. Especially given the fact I feel that putting all the WT capable melee PAs on him is an absolute waste of his capacity for tech.




Shima, for once you may be right. I've seen the changes for WT stats including the TP buff and S-rank wands, but will it be enough to offset the huge melee buff they get? The smaller percent ATP buff can be misleading considering that all-important third strike.

I haven't seen the Acrotecher stat mods yet, but I assume they will be more TP-based. That is, for those who want to be primarily casters with melee ability (which does take a good portion of the newman WTs away), Acrotecher is it. AoE flinching bitchslap weapon and all.

Accuracy hasn't increased at all for WTs though, meaning that newmans still might have a place, but with acrotecher looming, it leaves one to wonder.

One thing is certain though: Beasts and CASTs should not go acrotecher.

//EDIT: One last note: and notice that Acrotechers get much higher support techs. Hmmm...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2007-04-17 02:04 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

If you want to do ranged support, play a GT. Though, GT's TP mod almost doubles at lv 10 after AoI, so even human and newman GTs would out class casts still. Simple point being, casts and beasts weren't meant for support classes. If you want a support char, make a human or newman. (Don't bring up that the pointless buff argument, resta is far more important than the rest of the support spells).

I play a Cast GT because they are the only class to get S rank crossbows, dual pistols and machine guns. Resta is NOT the most improtant support tech. reverser is. Stun, freeze, sleep are ll SEs you cannot antimate yourself out of. Reverser sovless this problem nicely.

Edit: and for those who say WT is 'clearly' meant for melee now, why did they get level 30 attack techs?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-17 03:14 ]</font>

[Raysa]

Because Nanoblast/SUV is fail http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif.

[Kimil]

On 2007-04-16 22:47, Sounomi wrote:

Again, the class is geared towards techs... Beasts have pathetic TP even compared to a human, especially with that high of a TP mod. If you aren't using a race that suits the class well then you aren't gonna be helping the party much, especially if you're gonna be the main means of support. If you want to support so badly, make a race that's good for it. It's gonna be a couple months at least before AoI comes, you have time to make a new char.



TP does not effect support techs ( except Resta ) At all!
Shifta/Deband/Zodial/Rentier/Jellen/Zallure/Zondeel/Reverser/Digas/Rentis/Giresta... they are all status effects and do not use TP in their calculation. My TP means nothing for support techs
except maybe Resta, and like I said, I can probably boost it ennough with equipment and rentier

The only stat that matters for support techs are:
- my PA cap ( which is why I'm goig to try AT )
- my PP on my wands/mags to allow me to spam
- my defencive stats, for surviving on the frontlines.

So again, if I soley go support as a beast AT, I should do fine. If I take that role, everyone else can focus on doing damage and wont need to stop and heal. If another AT is in the party though, I'll take my leave: no need for 2 support characters ( unless the AT doesn't focus on Support, in wich case I'd stay )


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-04-17 06:49 ]</font>

[Kimil]

EDIT ...

OKAY, this whole post was useless... JUST AS USELESS AS THE FORTEFIGHTER TP BOOST.. WTF SEGA -_-

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-04-17 10:49 ]</font>

[Itsuki]

This is something I was hoping for... a boost in fembeast TP.
(Now assuming this boost ins't FF related, which of course would make no sense to give a FF more TP, but race/gender related, I will calculate my TP as a Beast AT. I am not expecting much, but lets see non the less)

Old Fembeast TP as FF 100/10: 173
New Fembeast TP as FF 100/10: 207

207/173 = 1.1965 ( a 20% increase )

current fembeast TP at level 80: 528

528*1.20 = 633.6 ( 634 )

lvl 10 Acrotecher TP modifer = 130%

634*1.3 = 824.2 ( 824 )

Assumed base TP of a FemBeast AT 80/10: 824
Whoa whoa whoa stop there. fF's TP was boosted, not the beast ratio. Don't ask me why, but fF had boosts to ATP, ATA, TP, and MST. You better be crazy if you think a FemBeast is going to have 824 TP at 80/10 acrotecher. The correct TP should be 703. Also, keep in mind that human gets a boost to the acro-classes. So the difference is even more. Second, how many people carry a sta/force and +10 weapons? But I'm going to overlook it only because +5 to +7 A-ranks will probably be the standard in AoI. And thats about equivalent TP.

Since numbers seem to be the working thing here, lets throw out some more numbers:
(all these are for newman female, and are the Actual stats of a level 84 in AoI with class level 10)
ATP comparison:
fF - 711
WT - 586
PT - 558
AT - 487

TP comparison:
fT - 1324
WT - 1030
GT - 772
AT - 1160

EVA comparison:
WT - 491
fG - 417
AT - 625

Lets face it people, the class is dependent upon two stats. TP and EVA. Its not meant to be a melee class and trying to force it into becoming one will just make you gimp. Other than the S-ranks and skill levels, you have the melee ability of a damn fT. I don't see why you'd want to make a beast AT, when a beast WT would be superior?


EDIT: I don't even see why theres so much arguement here. Everyone who has touched the beta for longer than a day is arguing that AT is a human/newman based class.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-17 09:56 ]</font>

[Kimil]

Oh well, I tought the TP boost I saw was a racial bonus... because WHY THE FUCKING HELL would FF need the boost? -______________- That pops my bubble...

[SolomonGrundy]

Itsuki-chan: can you please post the numbers for DFP for the female beast for the following classes


WarTecher
FiGunner
ArcoTecher
GunTecher

The reason people are trying to shove Beast/Cast into the AT role is the same reason people currently play Beast GunTechers, or Newman Wartecher (*coff* me *coff*), they may feel that the races high numbers in some stats offset the classes weakness.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-04-16 21:00, Kimil wrote:
I'm still at least trying out AT as my beast. I KNOW I will do zero damage with attack techs and melee ( mostlikely cards too ) but... if I focus on support, my stats mean nothing at all ( except maybe for resta, but my +10 6* wands ( the tenora and GRM ones ), lvl 41+ retier andresta and a force unit should raise the resta output high ennough.

Infact, if I play support only as a beast AT ( Buffs, debuffs, revives, digaz/rentis, heals, reverser ) the only stat that will matter will be my high racial HP so I can take frontline positions.

Playstyle i'm guessing I'll do as a beast AT:

prior to fights:
- Shifta/Deband/Zodial/Retier and then Digas/Rentis the other members
- Heal if needed

Durring fights ( staying close to the hunters to act as healbot ):
- Zalure/Jellen/Zondeel everything in the room and keep enemy buffs down
- Heal when needed Resta/Reverser/Giresta
- If everyone is healthy, cause SE with dualies or Cards
-Rebuff if needed
- Digas/rentis continuasly
- Crowd control : Knock down eneies with certain melee PAs.
- Maybe through in a Gizonde for Shock or Dambarta for Freeze.

I KNOW I wont ever do more than half the damage of other players, but AT is primarily the support class anyways so I'll play it support only. As long as I leave the damage dealing to beast hunters or newm Forces and support them as they do, I shouldn't need to worry. I hope.


I'm with you there Kimil. That's how I like to play as well. I'm all about support, and that's how I'm playing my FOcaseal at the moment. Attach techs bore the hell out of me, so I am not interested in it at all, just maximized buffs and SE to assist the rest of the group for me. I can see myself jumping between GT, and AT for 2 different support purposes. But a cast AT's (for me anyways) lower EVA does concern me. To rely on something that is random (even if it's expected) seems so much like a gamble to me. Then tell me this, when a human's or newman's EVA DOES fail, aren't they gonna get 1 hit killed? I wanna avoid this at all costs since I'll be up in the frey with the hunters debuffing and healing them. And I could care less about attach damage output. I'd rather level up my techs to get it's maxed range and rely on it's SE or bullet SE.

All this beast/cast AT hate seems to stem from the arguement that you assume they all wanna be heavy on melee or do huge damage #'s. But all I wanna do is maximize in all out support and maximize survivability through HP and DEF. Sacrificing EVA for HP and DEF personal preference for beast/cast AT, no?
Especially in boss fights. I can imagine there's plenty you can't evade in there.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-04-17 10:58 ]</font>

[Itsuki]

On 2007-04-17 10:45, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Itsuki-chan: can you please post the numbers for DFP for the female beast for the following classes

WarTecher
FiGunner
ArcoTecher
GunTecher

The reason people are trying to shove Beast/Cast into the AT role is the same reason people currently play Beast GunTechers, or Newman Wartecher (*coff* me *coff*), they may feel that the races high numbers in some stats offset the classes weakness.


level 84 again. These should be right, but the spreadsheet might have rounded differently than the game does.


BEAST Fig GT WT AT
HP 2204 1976 2470 2090
ATP 864 715 756 648
ATA 281 357 179 312
TP 190 456 608 704
DEF 169 126 171 141
MST 230 306 408 534
EVA 82 118 153 211

NEWMAN Fig GT WT AT
HP 1787 1602 2003 1645
ATP 669 554 586 487
ATA 372 472 236 401
TP 321 772 1030 1160
DEF 152 114 154 123
MST 276 368 491 625
EVA 193 276 358 482


If you're looking stat wise and weapon selection, the sad thing is, a newman WT kills beast AT in everything but buffing. And when it really comes down to it, the main spell you'll be casting is resta anyways, and chances are there will be SOMEONE else in party that can buff. So your buffing ability is counteracted. I rarely party in a party that doesn't have atleast one other techer (GT/AT/fT) that would be able to give decent buffs other than myself.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-17 11:46 ]</font>

[Kimil]

On 2007-04-17 11:43, Itsuki-chan wrote:
And when it really comes down to it, the main spell you'll be casting is resta anyways, and chances are there will be SOMEONE else in party that can buff. So your buffing ability is counteracted. I rarely party in a party that doesn't have atleast one other techer (GT/AT/fT) that would be able to give decent buffs other than myself.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-17 11:46 ]</font>


Different Servers I'm afraid... It seems that unless I'm a Wartecher, there is NEVER a healer in the party. Even when there are other techers they tend not to heal at all. I'll find work as a fembeast Acrotecher / healer, no worries http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But right now, I'm considerring staying Wartecher or going Guntecher... I'm not sure, I'll just wait until the expansion

[Itsuki]

If you're a beast, I'd say go wartecher. You can still deal some good damage, and your resta will still be respectable.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-17 17:04, Itsuki-chan wrote:
If you're a beast, I'd say go wartecher. You can still deal some good damage, and your resta will still be respectable.



Just speculation, but could an AT with level 5 buffs deal more damage than a WT with level 2 buffs (meaning AT would be comparable soloers)?

[Kimil]

Belive me, If I was planning to solely use resta I would stay WT and not consider AT at all, but I'm interested in the buffing/debuffing/etc etc which WT now lacks; not for myself but the party I'm in of course. SEs on the side with whips/cards/duallies, knockdown with dagger PAs... all support no damage. There are manymanymany fighters out there to do damage, too few support characters though. This is why I want to go AT.

Plus... my group, the Loliexpress is a bit lacking in the support department:

Eclair (Beasle): Fortefighter/Figunner -> focused on melee
Einheart (Cast): Figunner -> focused on melee/traps/duallies
Kosmos (Caseal): Fortegunner -> focused on range damage
Sylvia (Caseal): Guntecher -> focused on duallies ( twin mayhalee mostly ) and range/SE and some support
Ryver (Cast): (last time I checked) Figunner -> (Haven't partied with him in a while, not sure of his attack style)
Jakster (Humar): (again, I'm not sure, he's been trying Fortetecher lately, but usually he's in the Fighter classes)
Mimiru (Beasle): (I have yet to party with her, she joined while I was in europe)
Meia (Beasle): M.I.A.
ShinAnt (Beast): Fortefighter -> he's lower level atm, so I've yet to party in serious situations yet
Cell (Humar): Protranser/Fortefigher -> Melee/traps/some ranged?

So usually ( being a Wartecher ), I tend to be the healer/buffer lol.

(Lately Sylvia and Jakster have been playing around with fT... so I'll see if I'm even need for support come AoI)

[Pillan]

Sorry to interrupt the current Beast and Cast bashing, but this topic bothered me enough to write my thoughts on the matter.

If I’m not mistaken, the only two-hand weapon Acrotecher can use is twin daggers, so the lack of level 30 skills is pretty unimportant since all the one-hand PAs are complete at level 11. Sure you lose 10% ATP and ATA compared to WT (doesn’t AT have 60% more base ATA anyway?), but you’ll most likely make it up in the 30 level difference in the buffs and debuffs (given that it currently increases 5% per 10 levels, that could be as much as 15% more with buffs alone, giving AT an advantage with any 1 hand weapon). I’m pretty sure that makes up for the ATP difference between WT and AT as well.

The next argument seems to be the EVP advantage of Newmans and Humans over Beasts and Casts. I think the earlier statement about DFP and HP being far more dependable than EVP sums up my feelings on the statement. Also the difference between Newman and Cast EVP isn’t nearly as vast as that of some other stats (such as comparing the lowest and highest TP, MST, or even HP) and I’m sure most of us can agree that Casts don’t block noticeably less than Newmans on any class besides maybe fT.

Then there’s the TP thing. Yes, Newmans and Humans heal more with Resta, but the nice thing about Resta is you can just cast it twice. Sure it wastes a little more PP, but you can always carry photon charges and extra wands. I don’t have any trouble healing with my Caseal WT on the current version, so it can’t possibly be an issue with higher level spells. The argument also continued to the fact that Casts and Beasts can’t possibly keep up with Human and Newman damage techs. Who cares? If you’re playing AT, you don’t plan to do much melee, ranged, or tech damage; you want to give your team extra support. If you want tech damage, stick to fT and abuse the 10-20% extra damage they get (which the buff and debuff difference won’t make up in the 10 level difference).

Honestly, I’d rather play Cast AT than WT simply because of the support technique difference. The weapon distribution and 30 bullets are just a bonus to me.

But I would say AT is one of the few classes that EVERY race can do well. Beasts can focus on melee, Casts have melee and ranged, Newman ranged and attack techs, humans will fair decently with all three, and everyone will have their powerful support. The weapon and PA distribution do a great job supporting everyone.

[Kimil]

On 2007-04-17 23:32, Pillan wrote:

But I would say AT is one of the few classes that EVERY race can do well. Beasts can focus on melee, Casts have melee and ranged, Newman ranged and attack techs, humans will fair decently with all three, and everyone will have their powerful support. The weapon and PA distribution do a great job supporting everyone.



I Agree with everything you just said http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Except one thing I'd like to add... Beast can use guns too http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I love my cards and duallies http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-17 17:21, Gamemako wrote:

On 2007-04-17 17:04, Itsuki-chan wrote:
If you're a beast, I'd say go wartecher. You can still deal some good damage, and your resta will still be respectable.



Just speculation, but could an AT with level 5 buffs deal more damage than a WT with level 2 buffs (meaning AT would be comparable soloers)?



They'd be better soloers than WT, purely for the fact that they have teching capacity comparable to an FT NOW, with much higher defensive capabilities. But that's on a newman. And human comes very close too.

I just find tech MUCH easier solo wise than melee. AT is going to be a pretty easy character to play solo. Like when I make my newman WT to level techs, just so I can be a tank and stand in the middle of a bunch of monsters firing off techs and barely getting hurt. Imagine that with DECENT DAMAGE.

You should concentrate on tech for AT though. Not melee. Level 5 buffs on that low ATP and low levels of PAs, coupled with a selection of just 4 weapons, 3 of which are offhand is not going to cut it. Even if AT equals WT in ATP with weapon and buffs, it will never come close to the range of melee capacity WT has.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-17 23:56, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2007-04-17 17:21, Gamemako wrote:

On 2007-04-17 17:04, Itsuki-chan wrote:
If you're a beast, I'd say go wartecher. You can still deal some good damage, and your resta will still be respectable.



Just speculation, but could an AT with level 5 buffs deal more damage than a WT with level 2 buffs (meaning AT would be comparable soloers)?



They'd be better soloers than WT, purely for the fact that they have teching capacity comparable to an FT NOW, with much higher defensive capabilities. But that's on a newman. And human comes very close too.

I just find tech MUCH easier solo wise than melee. AT is going to be a pretty easy character to play solo. Like when I make my newman WT to level techs, just so I can be a tank and stand in the middle of a bunch of monsters firing off techs and barely getting hurt. Imagine that with DECENT DAMAGE.

You should concentrate on tech for AT though. Not melee. Level 5 buffs on that low ATP and low levels of PAs, coupled with a selection of just 4 weapons, 3 of which are offhand is not going to cut it. Even if AT equals WT in ATP with weapon and buffs, it will never come close to the range of melee capacity WT has.



Defense may yet become useful, though, since they changed the penalty. OHKOs on nukers may well rejoin us. Seems like they're trying to make soloing as difficult as possible.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-04-17 23:32, Pillan wrote:
The next argument seems to be the EVP advantage of Newmans and Humans over Beasts and Casts. I think the earlier statement about DFP and HP being far more dependable than EVP sums up my feelings on the statement. Also the difference between Newman and Cast EVP isn’t nearly as vast as that of some other stats (such as comparing the lowest and highest TP, MST, or even HP) and I’m sure most of us can agree that Casts don’t block noticeably less than Newmans on any class besides maybe fT.


True. But I'm still concerned about any tweeks they make to the game in the future. Cast's EVA are STILL the race with the lowest EVA. So I'm sure we're gonna notice it at some point in the AT's career. And they're tweeking DEF as well? That's news to me. Wonder how it's changed.
But what Itsuki-chan, and other beta testers had stated in the past, is that AT's are EXPECTED to block, and block often (if I remember correctly. Or was it AF?) It seems effective enough to them since I don't hear anyone complaining about EVA engine failing like it did in PSO days.

But I AM curious to know how often does their EVA fail? (as in many "close call" hits). And when it does, how often are they 1 hit killed? Are they front liner techers when testing this? (to know how often EVA takes effect).
And how do they do on boss fights? Does high EVA help any in there? Can they be debuffed, or are AT's forced to dish out the damage techs? (besides long bows). They're still given 30 damage techs, so ST did expect them to deal damage in that area. I just choose not to care about damage, but with SE potential. Go GO Gi-techs with SE3!

As a support techer already, I play smartly around mobs and know where and when I can take damage and when not to. One should ALWAYS try and avoid hits, but if newman/human AT's EVA is that high, and accurs that often compared to a beast/cast, it just may well be worth it. But with the current system I see here (non beta), I'm still used to and will rely on higher DEF/HP.

We just gotta wait and see to test it out ourselves once it's available.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-17 11:43, Itsuki-chan wrote:

On 2007-04-17 10:45, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Itsuki-chan: can you please post the numbers for DFP for the female beast for the following classes

WarTecher
FiGunner
ArcoTecher
GunTecher

The reason people are trying to shove Beast/Cast into the AT role is the same reason people currently play Beast GunTechers, or Newman Wartecher (*coff* me *coff*), they may feel that the races high numbers in some stats offset the classes weakness.


level 84 again. These should be right, but the spreadsheet might have rounded differently than the game does.


BEAST Fig GT WT AT
HP 2204 1976 2470 2090
ATP 864 715 756 648
ATA 281 357 179 312
TP 190 456 608 704
DEF 169 126 171 141
MST 230 306 408 534
EVA 82 118 153 211

NEWMAN Fig GT WT AT
HP 1787 1602 2003 1645
ATP 669 554 586 487
ATA 372 472 236 401
TP 321 772 1030 1160
DEF 152 114 154 123
MST 276 368 491 625
EVA 193 276 358 482


If you're looking stat wise and weapon selection, the sad thing is, a newman WT kills beast AT in everything but buffing. And when it really comes down to it, the main spell you'll be casting is resta anyways, and chances are there will be SOMEONE else in party that can buff. So your buffing ability is counteracted. I rarely party in a party that doesn't have atleast one other techer (GT/AT/fT) that would be able to give decent buffs other than myself.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-17 11:46 ]</font>


somethings wrong, look at the beast MST for WT...seems a little high, no?

[pso123hrf]

Dude...I cried when I saw newmans would own as a Acrotecher...bravo! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Shiro_Ryuu]

My original plan was for a Wartecher due to the introduction of madoogs, but now, I'm making my new female newman into an Acrotecher. I also cried when I heard Shim say that humans are the best Acrofighters. Just hope they keep the S rank twin sabers and at least lv 40 PAs.

[Soukosa]

You won't use twin sabers much on an AF. Everyone that has played an AF for a decent time as found the shadoogs to be quite helpful which the class is built to use afterall.

With ATs, I've been playing both a human and newman one and personally, I think the newman has the better edge on it. You will rely upon offensive techs alot to be able to deal damage. Not only since the techs are stronger but you're also lacking too much in the melee department. Don't get me wrong on this though, I melee on alot on both but I also constantly use offensive techs while fighting enemies and that's become the most efficent way to take down things. Granted on some enemies I may lean more on one than the other due to resistances but that's the general gist of it.

This is why beast and cast ATs fail, they don't have the TP to pull of this style of combat. Forget about buffs, just pretend they don't exist since the style of combat this class uses isn't dependent upon them (not like anything is). Even with them, an AT will never compare to a WT in melee and can't compare to an FT in terms of tech usage. Madoogs have too low of PP for heavy usage of the heavy techs like the Gis and Dams plus FTs have reduced costs. Only having A rank wands doesn't help much either. Obviously, ST is trying to point out how they designed it with the S rank madoogs and S rank single handed melee weapons and that's what works the best with them.

For the EVP thing, don't compare your experiences with other classes and expect that to be the same here. ATs and AFs have very high EVP. A lv 85 newman AF has over 1k EVP with the right armor and that's not even with buffs or an EVP unit. They're meant to rely upon on EVP and can do it unlike other classes. Using a low EVP race with such is like using a low DFP class on an FF, it doesn't get you far and definately doesn't give you the best bang for the class.

A good piece of advice is to listen to those that are experienced with the class and not to try to argue about it when you haven't experienced it yourself.

[SolomonGrundy]

Code:


BEAST Fig GT WT AT
HP 2204 1976 2470 2090
ATP 864 715 756 648
ATA 281 357 179 312
TP 190 456 608 704
DEF 169 126 171 141
MST 230 306 408 534
EVA 82 118 153 211

NEWMAN Fig GT WT AT
HP 1787 1602 2003 1645
ATP 669 554 586 487
ATA 372 472 236 401
TP 321 772 1030 1160
DEF 152 114 154 123
MST 276 368 491 625
EVA 193 276 358 482



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you're looking stat wise and weapon selection, the sad thing is, a newman WT kills beast AT in everything but buffing


Um...no?

Beast AT > newman WT in HP: 2090 vs 2003
Beast AT > newman WT in ATP: 648 vs 586
Beast AT > newman WT in ATA 312 vs 236

and the DFP is only off by 13? But as I said, your numbers for MST/EVP must be off. Beast EVP for Figunne is more than 82 at level 60. Maybe you have MST/EVP reversed for?

ATA is a big letdown for newman WTs. Still I'll probably try both and see which fits me better. I suspect that AT's will be be more like TechGunners, than melee'ers.



But I would say AT is one of the few classes that EVERY race can do well. Beasts can focus on melee, Casts have melee and ranged, Newman ranged and attack techs, humans will fair decently with all three, and everyone will have their powerful support. The weapon and PA distribution do a great job supporting everyone.


WT is the other class everyone can do well at.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-18 20:35 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-18 20:30, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I suspect that AT's will be be more like TechGunners, than melee'ers.

Here we go again... people throwing out crap without any experience with the class at all http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ever notice how ATs have a few S rank melee weapons that are mostly single handed and then get S rank madoogs but only A rank wands? Hmm... let's put them together and maybe... Hey, what do you know? The class does rather well meleeing AND using offensive techs together in battle. Who would have thought? Also being that beasts and casts have such horrible TP (newman AT has almost twice the TP as a cast one in the higher levels) and being that the class is so dependent upon techs in battle for damage is the whole reason why they don't make good ATs! The class also makes heavy use of EVP for defense, which what do you know... beasts and casts are low in that too.

Being that I have a lv 34/4 human AT and a lv 22/2 newman AT, I have some experience with the class on two different races and most likely far more experience than anyone else here that's been playing the beta. I know what I'm talking about so quit fucking ignoring me and then going off like you know what's what when you have never touched the class. This goes for everyone.

[Syl]

On 2007-04-17 17:32, Kimil wrote:
Sylvia (Caseal): Guntecher -> focused on duallies ( twin mayhalee mostly ) and range/SE and some support

(Lately Sylvia and Jakster have been playing around with fT... so I'll see if I'm even need for support come AoI)



D: You got my style wrong lol. I focus mainly on using cards (I was leveling TM back then lol) to apply SEs and carry a wand to lay down some reverser and gimpy resta.

And yes, I have been messing with fT. Mostly as a support FT (lvl 7) (doing something like 350 on s2 mobs w/ Gidiga lvl 26 and being buffed isnt cool), but now that I've read all of this info, I don't think I'll be going AT on Sylvia anymore. I mean the most I can heal with a Howrod is about 1100ish, so knowing AT's will be getting lower TP is kind of dissapointing.

I wanted to do what Kimil was doing (debuff/buff/support) as a caseal AT, but I guess that will be only under certain circumstances (like my party has no support at all) and even then, GT will be getting lvl 30 support techs, so I can be of more help (seriously, lvl 10 resta sucks hard)

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-16 17:48, Tra wrote:
The only thing that's gonna determine how good a wartecher is... how fortefighter fares, since they have lv40 PAs... but it looks like they're doing much better so far, at least they are able to outdamage fTs in the ranged department (not status effect yet though) finally.



Did you know that beast WT can ALREADY outdamage newman FT with bows, hmm?

It can't outdamage beast FT, but who plays beast as FT?

Yep, even with level 10 bullets, beast WT outdamages newman FT. That's not taking SE into account, but raw damage from the bow. Neither class can use traps, so damage from inflicting SE from the outset is never certain on either.

ATA is not an issue with bows either, so much freaking ATA.

I'm talking about playing optimal damage here. For optimal damage you need to play WT as beast and AT as newman or human. That's just how it is. And GT fares better in the hands of human or cast.

I'm fine with people playing non optimal jobs, but I wonder why they do it. Want eye candy? You don't need pointy ears for eye candy, seriously. Same as you don't need doggy or kitty ears and a hare lip for eye candy.

I don't like newman so much as the other races (fucking space elves) but that doesn't stop me from having one, for nice stats in roles I want to play. I don't think male beast in general looks as good as female, but that doesn't change the fact I have the best damn looking one on the servers.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-19 04:23, -Shimarisu- wrote:

I'm talking about playing optimal damage here. For optimal damage you need to play WT as beast and AT as newman or human. That's just how it is. And GT fares better in the hands of human or cast.



I take it the TP buff for WTs isn't enough to give any reason to a Newman WT?

I kinda figured with larger melee buff that it might go that way. Level 30 melee means a bloody ton with the power of Renkai's last strike. Beasts get a huge buff from that, while newmans are left pretty solidly in the dark. It remains to be seen how it really goes, but it looks like they wanted to give the techers a place to go to (AT) and leave the melee people to WT.

[Kimil]

On 2007-04-19 03:05, WatchThemFeed wrote:

D: You got my style wrong lol. I focus mainly on using cards (I was leveling TM back then lol) to apply SEs and carry a wand to lay down some reverser and gimpy resta.



Lol sry, BUT YOU GUYS HAVEN'T DONE A REAL RUN WITH ME SINCE THE INFINITY HOUR PARTY!!! I kinda forgot how y'all play lol, I'm gonna catch up soon! I'm already lvl 70 in a day or two! XD

[chibiLegolas]

[b]On 2007-04-19 03:05, WatchThemFeed wrote
And yes, I have been messing with fT. Mostly as a support FT (lvl 7) (doing something like 350 on s2 mobs w/ Gidiga lvl 26 and being buffed isnt cool), but now that I've read all of this info, I don't think I'll be going AT on Sylvia anymore. I mean the most I can heal with a Howrod is about 1100ish, so knowing AT's will be getting lower TP is kind of dissapointing.


Is their TP that much lower for AT? I kinda forgot about that. Hmm... My Caseal will still have gimped resta? Well, as a FT, I'm seeing that my resta is still sufficient enough to heal most ppl's HP to 80% or so. (FF, maybe 60% - 70%?) It's meant to bring ppl out of yellow to maybe take another hit or eat a monomate. So that's good enough, no?

Well, then that just means that I gotta reply on the sheer level of resta for the range at least. I'm learning that in boss fights, it's too dam difficult to reach ppl in time to heal. So I gotta get max range as much as possible.
Can you guys help me open up the poison room again?
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Resta/reverser party time!
Honestly. I don't see how anyone could level resta to 21 naturally. It takes way too long.
O_o

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-19 09:30, chibiLegolas wrote:

[b]On 2007-04-19 03:05, WatchThemFeed wrote
And yes, I have been messing with fT. Mostly as a support FT (lvl 7) (doing something like 350 on s2 mobs w/ Gidiga lvl 26 and being buffed isnt cool), but now that I've read all of this info, I don't think I'll be going AT on Sylvia anymore. I mean the most I can heal with a Howrod is about 1100ish, so knowing AT's will be getting lower TP is kind of dissapointing.


Is their TP that much lower for AT? I kinda forgot about that. Hmm... My Caseal will still have gimped resta? Well, as a FT, I'm seeing that my resta is still sufficient enough to heal most ppl's HP to 80% or so. (FF, maybe 60% - 70%?) It's meant to bring ppl out of yellow to maybe take another hit or eat a monomate. So that's good enough, no?

Well, then that just means that I gotta reply on the sheer level of resta for the range at least. I'm learning that in boss fights, it's too dam difficult to reach ppl in time to heal. So I gotta get max range as much as possible.
Can you guys help me open up the poison room again?
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Resta/reverser party time!
Honestly. I don't see how anyone could level resta to 21 naturally. It takes way too long.
O_o



My WT's heal is all naturally leveled. I tend to act as a combat medic, and I'm pretty proficient being a newman with good TP.

By the way, AT's TP is second only to fT, and with level 50 heal and the TP from your wand, you're going to be fairly adequate with heal no matter your race (I'd estimate even a CAST could manage 1000 heals). The problem is that you get level 30 attack techs, not level 50, and your attack techs are going to be completely and utterly insufficient, and your melee will be insufficient, meaning you're a support char and nothing else -- and even your support abilities are weak compared to a Newman's. The ONLY thing a CAST AT has over a Newman is melee damage, which will never be very high (I hear ATs don't have many problems with defense, especially since they're not really a melee class).

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-19 04:23, -Shimarisu- wrote:

Did you know that beast WT can ALREADY outdamage newman FT with bows, hmm?

It can't outdamage beast FT, but who plays beast as FT?

Yep, even with level 10 bullets, beast WT outdamages newman FT. That's not taking SE into account, but raw damage from the bow. Neither class can use traps, so damage from inflicting SE from the outset is never certain on either.

ATA is not an issue with bows either, so much freaking ATA.

I'm talking about playing optimal damage here. For optimal damage you need to play WT as beast and AT as newman or human. That's just how it is. And GT fares better in the hands of human or cast.

I'm fine with people playing non optimal jobs, but I wonder why they do it. Want eye candy? You don't need pointy ears for eye candy, seriously. Same as you don't need doggy or kitty ears and a hare lip for eye candy.

I don't like newman so much as the other races (fucking space elves) but that doesn't stop me from having one, for nice stats in roles I want to play. I don't think male beast in general looks as good as female, but that doesn't change the fact I have the best damn looking one on the servers.



YOu are right about some things, wrong about others

Right: Humans, particularly male humans make the best GT. Part of this is due to how armors are set up, and part is because Humans well rounded stats fit into this class quite nicely.

Right: Beast WTs do out damage Newman fTs with bows. There is no argument there.

Wrong: Bows are only about damage, and not SEs. Although inflicting SEs is never certain, level 21+ bullets are very helpfull in aplying SEs to certain enemies, when techs can be difficult to aim, due to enemy mobility.


And Shir, part of the reason people play non-optimal jobs is an imperfect understanding of the game. That's how I ened up with a high level Beast ForteFighter (which now I am beginning to understand is a class that Sega does not care for).


Ever notice how ATs have a few S rank melee weapons that are mostly single handed and then get S rank madoogs but only A rank wands? Hmm... let's put them together and maybe... Hey, what do you know? The class does rather well meleeing AND using offensive techs together in battle. Who would have thought? Also being that beasts and casts have such horrible TP (newman AT has almost twice the TP as a cast one in the higher levels) and being that the class is so dependent upon techs in battle for damage is the whole reason why they don't make good ATs! The class also makes heavy use of EVP for defense, which what do you know... beasts and casts are low in that too.

Your paragraph does not make sense. If they have 'only' A rank wands, isn't that an argument for using techs less?

How about the fact that EVP favors bullet use over meleeing, or that ATs get level 30 bullets, and only level 20 skills? Or the fact that they get S rank Cards?

and Wartechers...they get S ranks wands now, and level 30 techs...and you are saying they should NOT be using techs?

I respect you Sounomi, but I think that you have not made your points clear, in this case.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-19 11:33 ]</font>

[Itsuki]

On 2007-04-18 17:20, SolomonGrundy wrote:
somethings wrong, look at the beast MST for WT...seems a little high, no?



MST was raised on all classes. Even fF have more MST than before.


On 2007-04-18 20:30, SolomonGrundy wrote:

If you're looking stat wise and weapon selection, the sad thing is, a newman WT kills beast AT in everything but buffing
Um...no?

Beast AT > newman WT in HP: 2090 vs 2003
Beast AT > newman WT in ATP: 648 vs 586
Beast AT > newman WT in ATA 312 vs 236

and the DFP is only off by 13? But as I said, your numbers for MST/EVP must be off. Beast EVP for Figunne is more than 82 at level 60. Maybe you have MST/EVP reversed for?

ATA is a big letdown for newman WTs. Still I'll probably try both and see which fits me better. I suspect that AT's will be be more like TechGunners, than melee'ers.


You're only looking at melee damage here. You have to consider other things here. Like for example, WTs getting level 30 skills, much more of a melee weapon selection that more than compensate for the minor difference in ATP. The newman WT will deal more damage with melee, period. And the ATA isn't an issue for either of them. Melee you don't need ATA, and their primary ranged weapons are cards and bows (which both overcompensate for low ATA).

But, the two stats that are most important to the AT, where the largest amount of the AT's damage potential is going to come from, are significantly higher for a newman WT. And those are TP (1000 to 700) and Eva (350 to 150).

Lets face it hear, a newman WT will outdamage a beast AT in both techs, melee, and range. The only thing it won't do better, is buff.


On 2007-04-19 11:05, Gamemako wrote:
By the way, AT's TP is second only to fT, and with level 50 heal and the TP from your wand, you're going to be fairly adequate with heal no matter your race (I'd estimate even a CAST could manage 1000 heals). The problem is that you get level 30 attack techs, not level 50, and your attack techs are going to be completely and utterly insufficient, and your melee will be insufficient, meaning you're a support char and nothing else -- and even your support abilities are weak compared to a Newman's. The ONLY thing a CAST AT has over a Newman is melee damage, which will never be very high (I hear ATs don't have many problems with defense, especially since they're not really a melee class).


This sums it up perfectly. Its what me and sounomi have been trying to say for so long. Glad to see someone understands.

[-Asheth-]

OK, this guide is based on CURRENT STATS in beta, which may change but right now here's a little piece of persuasion to make those beast/cast WTs looking at AT stats and thinking of going AT, THINK AGAIN.

Here's some solid facts right here. Wartecher is not a teching heavy class. Put it on newman (christ, you should not) and it will achieve, WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS, at best 60% the potential damage of fortetecher as well as roughly 60% the melee damage of fortefighter using the same weapons.

Focus on the area that does the most damage, melee, and put it on a beast or cast, and WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS you will achieve 75%-80% atp damage of fortefighter, and 50% tech damage of fortetecher. Which is, IMO the way to go. On this class the melee will always outdamage the tech, so if you want to see big numbers you should not play newman.

Ah, but here's why ACROTECHER will be fine on a newman.

Acrotecher boasts:

1. Almost the same ATP as WT. IN fact IIRC it's slightly more, which is why casts and beasts are looking at it to fix their tech woes. Bad plan.

2. Almost the same TP as fortetecher. A little lower, but it's up there.

3. Level 30 attack techs, same as WT.

4. Level 20 melee PAs.

5. Level 30 gun PAs.

People who only look at base stats are seeing this class as a replacement for WT. People who look at only base stats are ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG.

Here are the downsides to AT vs WT for tech crippled classes.

1. Almost the same ATP as WT right? Ah but your melee potential goes down, way down. You see that damage 75% figure you can attain as WT? Play AT as beast/cast and your melee goes down to the equivalent of a newman playing WT. The key is all in the PA modifier, your PAs now go up to only level 20. Which may seem like the same damage you were doing as WT BEFORE ILLUMINOUS, indeed it is, but as a potential output compared to the boosted numbers FF gets in Illuminous, you're going to look horribly gimp. WT will surpass your melee damage considerably. Add to that the fact that ALL ACROTECHER CAN EQUIP IS DAGGER, DOUBLE DAGGERS WHIP AND SABER. That is IT.

Verdict: you're sacrificing too much melee potential for a (crippled) boost in TP.

2. AT also gets level 30 attack techs, only 10 points below fortetecher. Coupled with only marginally lower TP than fortetecher, this means the damage potential on tech for human/newman isn't much lower than fortetecher, in fact the main area you'll lose out on is tech range. However as a class focussed on tech with melee as secondary attack to finish off statussed enemies, this is fine. As human or newman, you might manage 80% the damage of fortetecher. With much more robust stats and level 50 support, you'll solo FAR better than FT.

In the hands of a cast or beast? Well, for a start, WITH WEAPON EQUIPPED ON BOTH, your tech damage will be 60% that of fortetecher. VS the 80% of human or newman? Face it, this is not good.

The melee of human or newman WILL be weaker than beast or cast, but only marginally so and it is not the main focus of the race, unlike Wartecher.

From this post yuou can draw the following conclusions.

When you take a race that's weak in area A, high in area B and take on a merged class that boosts area A and gimps area B, you become sub par in BOTH areas.

A newman WT achieves roughly 60% melee, 60% tech potential.
A beast WT achieves 75-80% melee, 50% tech potential.

AT SHOULD use tech more than melee, as that's where it gets the big numbers.

A WT should use melee more than tech, EVEN ON NEWMAN, so it is preferable to play an ATP heavy race.

But put AT on an ATP heavy race, you achieve roughly the result of putting WT on a newman.

A beast AT achieves roughly 60% melee, 60% tech potential. Yep that's right.
A newman AT achieves roughly 50% melee, 80% tech potential. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Please guys, AT isn't going to fix the low tech of WT on a beast. It is not a fix for your lower teching potential (which I must remind you, is 3/4s that of newman WT anyway.)

Please, please stay WT. AT is a role for the humans and newmans.



Glad someone has made a post like this. I'm getting tired of putting up with the idiots that think a beast or cast AT would be awesome and I just don't feel like trying to explain to them why >.>

As for the human/newman thing, I personally think they're about the same. It really depends upon what you want. A human one would be able to melee a bit better while a newman would rely more upon techs. I've played the class on both races for a bit too

You should also take into account that all expert classes (except FTs) got their stat mods buffed in AoI at lv 10. It won't change how AT is viewed but it can have an impact on WT.

The new WT 10 stat mods:
HP: 130%
ATP: 112%
ATA: 80%
TP: 112%
DFP: 122%
EVP: 160%
MST: 130%
STA: 100%

For a little comparison, if needed, AT lv 10 stat mods:
HP: 110%
ATP: 96%
ATA: 140%
TP: 130%
DFP: 100%
EVP: 210%
MST: 180%
STA: 100%

I'll let you draw the conclusions for it. You have a much better sense of seeing how a class works than 90% of the people here at least.

-Shimarisu- and Sounomi i believe are correct.

Here is a link to 5 1/2 minutes of acrotecher Looks to be newman: http://stage6.divx.com/user/RukaYakko/video/1183639/Illuminus-Network-Trial-2

I dont think beast would be that much better. Lvl 76 acrotecher against lvl 30 monsters. Melee isnt good at all, lower than WT tech damage is where the class shines i believe is right as they have said.

This is in the movie thread too but it is completely relevant to this debatable question. So i post it again. Most really need to see it for themselves. I was wondering myself but this video answers alot of questions.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-19 21:58 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-19 23:56 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I am going to keep asking this until someone answers this to my satisfaction:

AT get S rank cards and level 30 bullets (and high ATA). Rather than tech users with a side of melee, why wouldn't they be tech users, with a side of ranged?

So WTs = melee + spells (hence the higher DFP), and AT = ranged + spells (hence the higher EVP/ATA)

[Tra]

On 2007-04-19 04:23, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2007-04-16 17:48, Tra wrote:
The only thing that's gonna determine how good a wartecher is... how fortefighter fares, since they have lv40 PAs... but it looks like they're doing much better so far, at least they are able to outdamage fTs in the ranged department (not status effect yet though) finally.



Did you know that beast WT can ALREADY outdamage newman FT with bows, hmm?

It can't outdamage beast FT, but who plays beast as FT?

Yep, even with level 10 bullets, beast WT outdamages newman FT. That's not taking SE into account, but raw damage from the bow. Neither class can use traps, so damage from inflicting SE from the outset is never certain on either.

ATA is not an issue with bows either, so much freaking ATA.

I'm talking about playing optimal damage here. For optimal damage you need to play WT as beast and AT as newman or human. That's just how it is. And GT fares better in the hands of human or cast.

I'm fine with people playing non optimal jobs, but I wonder why they do it. Want eye candy? You don't need pointy ears for eye candy, seriously. Same as you don't need doggy or kitty ears and a hare lip for eye candy.

I don't like newman so much as the other races (fucking space elves) but that doesn't stop me from having one, for nice stats in roles I want to play. I don't think male beast in general looks as good as female, but that doesn't change the fact I have the best damn looking one on the servers.




Actually Shima, as much as I hate disagreeing with ya right now, beast male WT's can't currently outbow newman female FT's... yet.
Well actually beast male WT's can outdamage, using the ultimate bow PA. lol, just not with the other bullets.

but I can link the calculations from another one of my WT-hate posts but I know you wouldn't like that.
I'd like to move my hate on to Acrotechers when they are out. =)

[Alisha]

On 2007-04-19 23:45, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I am going to keep asking this until someone answers this to my satisfaction:

AT get S rank cards and level 30 bullets (and high ATA). Rather than tech users with a side of melee, why wouldn't they be tech users, with a side of ranged?

So WTs = melee + spells (hence the higher DFP), and AT = ranged + spells (hence the higher EVP/ATA)




your entire arguement is based on the misguided idea that evp is only helpful to ranged classes when AF has higher evp than AT and the second highest atp in the game.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-19 23:45, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I am going to keep asking this until someone answers this to my satisfaction:

AT get S rank cards and level 30 bullets (and high ATA). Rather than tech users with a side of melee, why wouldn't they be tech users, with a side of ranged?

So WTs = melee + spells (hence the higher DFP), and AT = ranged + spells (hence the higher EVP/ATA)

They have S rank single handed melee weapons and S rank madoogs?

Maybe we should break this down.

S rank Saber, S rank Dagger, S rank Madoog - These are pretty much the bread and butter weapons for the class. You use both in combat switching constantly depending upon situations at hand (or what you feel like doing in many cases). It's a strange playing style, yes, but one I enjoy alot. I personally don't care to stick to the same type of attack all the time (probably my minor ADD). For people that do like combat like that, it may be a little hard to understand, I guess.

S rank Whip - This is more of a support and mob handling weapon. I haven't really figured it out completely yet but it does go nicely with a madoog with a ra tech on it for larger mobs.

S rank Twin Dagger - This rather goes against the normal playing style but I guess they put it in so the class could have at least one strong melee weapon type for cases that would call for such.

S rank Card, Handgun - These are off hand weapons and go nicely with wands that are main hand. Being able to at least inflict some SEs and while running around spamming Resta and such is nice, even if the damage can't compare to the normal combat style. High level bullets would primarily be for the SEs. Yes cards only get SE 2, but the rate of infliction goes up with the level. fTs would have high level bullets for the same reason and it is a rather common practice with many support oriented fTs to use a card alongside a wand with Resta and Reverser. The same would apply here. Handguns aren't exactly that strong and cards are too slow to inflict that high of damage compared to the other guns that the true gunner classes have access to.

A rank Twin Handgun - Quick SE infliction and trap killing. Probably not much else to it. Being two handed rather limits what you can do and being A rank limits the power alot. The normal combat style would easily do more to anything but stuff that's only weak to ranged, in which case cards would probably do more damage. ATs also don't have Shadoogs for this purpose, which would conflict anyways.

A rank Wand - This thing to go along side the card and handgun and what you slap Resta, Reverser, and the debuffs on. As well as to help make a virtual rod of sorts for complete buffs. Offensive techs go to the Madoog to be used along side combat and I think the way they made wands A rank helps to support that notion.

Also EVP is hardly a gunner type stat. With fast attacking weapons, it's hardly an issue and very nice to have. I absolutely LOVE the high EVP the class has (except for Grass Assassins, but that's another story). The acro classes were made to excel in fast paced combat and EVP fits that rather well. I guess they didn't give fFs high EVP since it would conflict with the slower weapons that they excel at using too much. FGs have more EVP since they excel at faster attacking weapons, not because they're part gunner. Now if EVP was such a gunner oriented stat than why do casts which are supposed to be the best gunners have the lowest amount of it? Why do fGs gain no more EVP after lv 10 and only a lot more DFP? Why is the class with the highest EVP in the current game Fortetecher? EVP is for the classes designed to use it. fFs weren't really meant to but acros are and techers tend to get it since it ties into the powerful mind aspect that techs go off of.

Now, does that answer things?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, you know. I hate it when people talk about EVP sucking. "Oh noes! I r t3h evadzorz! I lost my PPz0rz!! OH noes!" I'm gonna love that high EVP when I'm up against that big piggy guy that knocks you down hard on his attacks anyway. I'd rather lose only PP than BOTH HP and PP.

[Mewnie]

DO AS I SAY! THIS IS MY GAME, NOT YOURS!



About right, hmm?

[PJ]

You know, I know the numbers Shim pumped out before with Newman WT vs Beast WT, showing Beast WT was better (Which we already knew), but I thought the damage newmans did there seemed surprisingly high, considering they're newmans.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Personally wouldn't hold it against someone to pick the "wrong" combination, but I think that Sounomi is trying to say that if you're a CAST or Beast, to not expect to get as much out of the Acro classes as you would as a Human or Newman, just like you shouldn't expect to get as much out of a Newman as you would from a Beast as a Fortefighter.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-20 00:17, Alisha wrote:

On 2007-04-19 23:45, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I am going to keep asking this until someone answers this to my satisfaction:

AT get S rank cards and level 30 bullets (and high ATA). Rather than tech users with a side of melee, why wouldn't they be tech users, with a side of ranged?

So WTs = melee + spells (hence the higher DFP), and AT = ranged + spells (hence the higher EVP/ATA)




your entire arguement is based on the misguided idea that evp is only helpful to ranged classes when AF has higher evp than AT and the second highest atp in the game.



No, My argument is based on them having level 30 bullets vs level 20 skills, S rank cards, and twin handguns. The ATA/EVP is just icing.

[-Shimarisu-]

I wasn't referring to Beast WT vs newman WT, but to beast WT vs newman fortetecher.

Cherry has tried to prove in the past that raw damage from newman FT>WT, with the lvl 30 modifier in place. THis is true if your WT is newman, but not if your WT is beast.

Compare:

(Beast WT ATP lvl 80/10 (674) + Alteric+10 ATP (667))*Level 10 bow modifier (1.26)=1689
(Newman FT ATP lvl 80/10 (317) + Alteric+10 ATP (667))*Level 30 bow modifier (1.6)=1574

Vs opposite element:

Beast WT: 1689*level 10 element mod (1.05)=1773
Newman FT: 1574*level 30 element mod (1.19)=1873

So, a beast WT does more raw damage, but a newman FT does more against opposite element.

You can argue that for a class with very low bullets, it's a close run contest and WT does proficiently with ranged enough to not be deemed useless at it (unlike what cherry has said in the past.)

It will change in AoI, when beast WT will outdamage newman FF against opposite element also.

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-20 10:12, SolomonGrundy wrote:
No, My argument is based on them having level 30 bullets vs level 20 skills, S rank cards, and twin handguns. The ATA/EVP is just icing.

And yet you ignore the whole fucking post I made to show you that they're not Techgunner wannabes? You are sad...

[TorterraEndor]

People STILL don't get what AT is?

Holy shit.

[-Shimarisu-]

RE your sig Torterra, I'd argue that GT was NOT mediocre at bullets, nor when you focus mostly on the strongest side of a hybrids role (as you SHOULD, it is the only way to achieve best potential) are they "mediocre," moreso "proficient."

Mediocre means pretty crap, you know.

And none of the hybrids are 50/50, they are all either 80/50 or 60/60, the former if you put them on a race strong in the hybrid's strong suit, and the latter if you put them on a race that is weak in the hybrid's strong suit.

Barring GT, which is handled 90/20 by humans, 95/10 by casts, 80/25 by newmans and uh, beasts probably not so well.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-20 19:54 ]</font>

[Tra]

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.




I'm just wondering where you got this fact... any proof? = A 80/10 beast fF is able to pull off a 13k (600x4 + 600x6 + 800x9) damage dus daggas, so even if you were to only say, only able to finish 2 dus daggas on onmagoug before he lifts off, that's already 26k damage right there. Can you hit onma 50 times in that evasive wing area with the bow inbetween the time he's flying and before he lands again? You can argue that you'd be able to melee him as well whenever the boss is on the floor, but I'm not gonna say anymore... because there's no proof.

But mm... what about acrofighters?

[PJ]

On 2007-04-20 14:39, -Shimarisu- wrote:
I wasn't referring to Beast WT vs newman WT, but to beast WT vs newman fortetecher.

I wasn't talking about the bows, the 5th post on the first page you made

Seemed pretty impressive to me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Kimil]

@-Shimarisu-

Beast GT do just fine ( as long as they focus on Bows and Cards mostly, because of their high ATA ). The Class has good ATA and the wep ATA rids us of zeros, and by being a beast we get higher ATP and still do the same with support techs (other than resta) as every other race as GT. The ATP difference isn't very high, but its definately there.

I've come to this conclusion about Beasts.
As long as they keep their low ATA in mind and use high ATA weps/units/buffsThey can do EVERYTHING but nuke (though for spreading SE and crowd control they still cut it, just not for the damage)




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-04-20 17:52 ]</font>

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-20 16:12, Tra wrote:

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.




I'm just wondering where you got this fact... any proof? = A 80/10 beast fF is able to pull off a 13k (600x4 + 600x6 + 800x9) damage dus daggas, so even if you were to only say, only able to finish 2 dus daggas on onmagoug before he lifts off, that's already 26k damage right there. Can you hit onma 50 times in that evasive wing area with the bow inbetween the time he's flying and before he lands again? You can argue that you'd be able to melee him as well whenever the boss is on the floor, but I'm not gonna say anymore... because there's no proof.

But mm... what about acrofighters?



That's a really stupid argument. Fortefighters get 28% more ATP and about half of that is offset by the weapon, meaning you have about 15% more damage. That means the WT just has to catch up 15% damage with a bow while the boss is flying, which is quite easy to do.

And as for proof, there's no proof of your claims either. Best anyone can do is fraps a video and compare.

[Mewnie]

Just play the damn game.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-20 17:51, Kimil wrote:
@-Shimarisu-

Beast GT do just fine ( as long as they focus on Bows and Cards mostly, because of their high ATA ). The Class has good ATA and the wep ATA rids us of zeros, and by being a beast we get higher ATP and still do the same with support techs (other than resta) as every other race as GT. The ATP difference isn't very high, but its definately there.

I've come to this conclusion about Beasts.
As long as they keep their low ATA in mind and use high ATA weps/units/buffsThey can do EVERYTHING but nuke (though for spreading SE and crowd control they still cut it, just not for the damage)

Limiting yourself to make up for your crappy stats in weapon selection only in turn limits your overall abilities and doesn't help out the rest of the party. At lv 100/10, a human, who has the 3rd highest ATA, has roughly 100 more ATA than a beast on the GT class, that's quite a drop.

Sure you can make up for it with units, but then you're eating up a slot that could be used for other things. Again, limiting yourself to certain weapons is hurting your performance and any good GT will tell you that you aren't using cards much, if at all. You'll be using what you're designed to use, which is primarily what you get S ranks in. Besides, what keeps the other races from using those weapons and not doing that much better than you? People that have played in the harder areas will also tell that you need alot of ATA to hit most things from a distance and the better HP and DFP on a beast surely isn't gonna be enough to make up for this with the class's lower mods on it.

Seriously, why are you so hell bent on using a particular race for everything, often things that don't fit it? You remind me of the cast fT fanatics which are in a losing battle...

[Schubalts]

On 2007-04-20 19:37, Mewnie wrote:
Just play the damn game.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-20 17:58, Gamemako wrote:

On 2007-04-20 16:12, Tra wrote:

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.




I'm just wondering where you got this fact... any proof? = A 80/10 beast fF is able to pull off a 13k (600x4 + 600x6 + 800x9) damage dus daggas, so even if you were to only say, only able to finish 2 dus daggas on onmagoug before he lifts off, that's already 26k damage right there. Can you hit onma 50 times in that evasive wing area with the bow inbetween the time he's flying and before he lands again? You can argue that you'd be able to melee him as well whenever the boss is on the floor, but I'm not gonna say anymore... because there's no proof.

But mm... what about acrofighters?



That's a really stupid argument. Fortefighters get 28% more ATP and about half of that is offset by the weapon, meaning you have about 15% more damage. That means the WT just has to catch up 15% damage with a bow while the boss is flying, which is quite easy to do.

And as for proof, there's no proof of your claims either. Best anyone can do is fraps a video and compare.





The third part of dus daggas is what WT's are missing. The third part does more than the first 2 parts of dus daggas combined.





http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5306/psu20070417192436027ll6.jpg
Part 1, hits 4 times with normal damage (680 x 4)
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6226/psu20070417192438028qk6.jpg
Part 2, hits 6 times, with less damage (580 x 6)
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3110/psu20070417192439029dq5.jpg
Part 3; hits 9 times, with high damage (800 x 9)

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=ja%7Cen&u=http://psu.fei-yen.jp/wiki/html/DB2FA5D5A5A9A5C8A5F3A5A2A1BCA5C42FA5B9A5ADA5EB.htm l

18(14) 131~140% 51～69% 18(14) 141~150% 77～86% 18(14) 151~160% 87%
2 bodies ## 2Hit 2 bodies ## 3Hit 3 bodies ## 3Hit

part1 hits 2 x 2
part2 hits 2 x 3,
part3 hits 3 x 3



Dus Daggas
Part1: 2720
Part2: 3480
Part3: 7200, more than the first two parts combined (I'll fraps a video later), which is what I'm saying. Right now the level 20 PA skill is missing that extra part, and when shimarisu said WT are better at flying bosses than fF, that's where I disagreed, because they are missing a massive chunk of damage (NOT just stat damage)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-04-20 21:29 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.

Not completely true. A beast fortefighter with a ground B'duki Re should be able to keep up as the rate of fire and high high ATP (of the class) should be able to outdamage a WT.


And yet you ignore the whole fucking post I made to show you that they're not Techgunner wannabes? You are sad...

a. settle down, this is a discussion, not Sonoumi's personal dumping gorund.

b. I did not ignore it. You made a statment that is not true: that A rank weapons are not good. Your examples pointed to s rank sabers, and daggers. But I submit to you, that A rank weapons ARE good. I also submit that S rank cards count as a ranged weappn.

c. level 20 skills. level 30 bullets. high ATA (almost Guntecher high). nuff said


@ Tra: not a fair argument, it's not that often that I use or am able to get off the full combo for Dus Duggas. And I have a level 71/9 fF.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-20 22:48, SolomonGrundy wrote:
b. I did not ignore it. You made a statment that is not true: that A rank weapons are not good. Your examples pointed to s rank sabers, and daggers. But I submit to you, that A rank weapons ARE good. I also submit that S rank cards count as a ranged weappn.

Classes tend to get what fits them best with the highest level for that weapon, in this case S rank. A gunner class wouldn't get a ton of S rank melee weapons now would it?



c. level 20 skills. level 30 bullets. high ATA (almost Guntecher high). nuff said

AF has high ATA as well. I guess that makes it a gunner like class too? The high ATA more goes along with the high EVP than anything else. Remember newmans have high EVP and ATA due to being a race with naturally high reflexes and these classes are built around that aspect as well.

With the PA caps, the class isn't heavily reliant on PAs in the same way that the other melee classes are. The class is built to get most of it's power from techs and not melee. This goes along with that notion. If this was really a gunner class it'd be lv 10 skills, like GT. But no, this a tech/melee hybrid. With lv 30 bullets, they're just like fTs. Does that make them a gunner class too? ATs and fTs have lv 30 bullets for their ranged weapons which are used for supportive purposes (i.e. SEs), not for damage. Playing the class I hardly ever use guns and they're rather weak compared to what I can do with melee and techs combined.

[Itsuki]

On 2007-04-20 22:48, SolomonGrundy wrote:

And yet you ignore the whole fucking post I made to show you that they're not Techgunner wannabes? You are sad...

a. settle down, this is a discussion, not Sonoumi's personal dumping gorund.

b. I did not ignore it. You made a statment that is not true: that A rank weapons are not good. Your examples pointed to s rank sabers, and daggers. But I submit to you, that A rank weapons ARE good. I also submit that S rank cards count as a ranged weappn.

c. level 20 skills. level 30 bullets. high ATA (almost Guntecher high). nuff said


Level 30 bullets and ATA doesn't make a class a gunner. You have to look at it in another light. The purpose of ranger based classes is to inflict status effects. Theres 2 main ways a ranger does this. First is with weapons that inflict high level SEs (SE3 and SE4, Rifles, Bows, Crossbow). Second, they use traps.

Now, what does AT have that could potentially do that? 1 weapon, pistols. And absolutely no use of traps. No offense, but if you try to play an AT like a ranger, you'd be a piss poor ranger and an even worse AT.

Lets look at it another way. fT get S-rank Bows and Cards. AT get inferior ranged weapons (for the purpose of what ranged weapons are used for). So if anything, fT would be more of a techer with a side of ranged ability than an AT would be. Regardless of ATA differences.

But what else is AT given? Its given the ability to get into melee range without dying, and superior melee ability (superior to fT and GT atleast).


Wrong: Bows are only about damage, and not SEs. Although inflicting SEs is never certain, level 21+ bullets are very helpfull in aplying SEs to certain enemies, when techs can be difficult to aim, due to enemy mobility.
Second, this is completely wrong. Well, I shouldn't say completely.

For GTs, bows are ONLY about SE. And since we're trying to make a techgunner arguement, I think this is important. All other ranged weapons in the GT's arsenal (other than pistols) deal more damage. (Rifles only when using phantom set).

EDIT: Sort of playing off of something sounomi said. In a way, fT is more of a Techgunner and AT is more of a Techfighter. Both have some degree of melee and ranged ability but drift in different ways while still focusing on techs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-21 01:10 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-04-20 22:48, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.

Not completely true. A beast fortefighter with a ground B'duki Re should be able to keep up as the rate of fire and high high ATP (of the class) should be able to outdamage a WT.

@ Tra: not a fair argument, it's not that often that I use or am able to get off the full combo for Dus Duggas. And I have a level 71/9 fF.




Do you really read my posts? If you did you'd realize I'm talking about fucking bosses, and how Beast WTs aren't better against flying bosses compared to fF. I don't know where you found the will to argue with me, when you're actually on the same page as me. And yes 90% of the time I finish an entire Dus Daggas combo on a boss uninterrupted.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-21 01:00, Itsuki-chan wrote:


For GTs, bows are ONLY about SE.


Hey Itsuki seriously you said you didn't use bows before so I'm not sure I can take this seriously. If it's a major threat close range, I'll use rifle to status and bow to finish IF the bow damage via defense piercing outweighs my phantom set. I find the biggest potential damage on GT if I can get near is crossbow (it dwarfs twin handguns, I believe you favouring twins to be a personal preference of yours). IF I need to stay at a distance or it's a larger enemy then damage with my +8 Alteric comes often close to my phantom rifle set, and in the case of a high defense enemy will surpass it. So I'll inflict SE4 with rifle first in some cases, then finish off with bow.

How bow can ONLY be about SE is beyond me when rifle is clearly superior here, you may as well ditch bows...but wait! we get them as S rank and they SOMETIMES outweigh rifle raw damage. So I have a faily optimal bow (ok I need 2 more grinds) but I had better keep my bow Pas too because WE GET FREAKING S RANK.

I think you're wrong, on GT, rifle is about SE4, bow is about potential damage. You've said in the past you don't use bows as a preference, so I wonder why you'd say they are not for damage. Here's what I have.

Burn shot level 30.
Dark shot level 30.
Light shot lvl 18 (aiming for 21+, I think this one's better on rifle).

I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THIS SHIT IS CALLED IN ENGLISH, I'M ON OMG AMAZING JP 360 VERSION.

Also:

Reiseisou level 30
Jiseisou lvl 30 (all about the damage really, plus I thought it'd be easier to silence ninja rangers in plant by levelling this for a not much used PA rather than rifle, as well as the fact I used to shoot bugs with this+hanmateric before ST nerfed bugs.)
Raiseisou 26 or so, dunno not sure?
Others 15+

SO UM

I levelled the ones I use more for status on rifle, and the ones for pure damage moreso on bow.

OH ITSUKI CHAN DID I DO WRONG?

Also these two are MUCH better on crossbow for status AND damage, I have:

Yak Banga lvl 26
Yak Inga lvl 30.

I want to lvl the other crossbow PAs to 30 for pure damage, but for pure damage at a distance I favour bow AFTER inflicting status with rifle. We are getting bow in S so it's best to have these PAs high for when we get S weapons. But for status yep, it's always, ALWAYS crossbow or rifle, hands down.

Oh I lied, I have the fire and dark bows over 21 too, I just forgot because I DON'T FREAKING USE THEM FOR STATUS. RIFLE IS STATUS, BOW IS ARMOUR PIERCING DAMAGE.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-21 04:51 ]</font>

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-20 21:28, Tra wrote:

On 2007-04-20 17:58, Gamemako wrote:

On 2007-04-20 16:12, Tra wrote:

Beast WT will always do better against flying bosses than beast fortefighter. That I believe is a very important factor in soloing.




I'm just wondering where you got this fact... any proof? = A 80/10 beast fF is able to pull off a 13k (600x4 + 600x6 + 800x9) damage dus daggas, so even if you were to only say, only able to finish 2 dus daggas on onmagoug before he lifts off, that's already 26k damage right there. Can you hit onma 50 times in that evasive wing area with the bow inbetween the time he's flying and before he lands again? You can argue that you'd be able to melee him as well whenever the boss is on the floor, but I'm not gonna say anymore... because there's no proof.

But mm... what about acrofighters?



That's a really stupid argument. Fortefighters get 28% more ATP and about half of that is offset by the weapon, meaning you have about 15% more damage. That means the WT just has to catch up 15% damage with a bow while the boss is flying, which is quite easy to do.

And as for proof, there's no proof of your claims either. Best anyone can do is fraps a video and compare.





The third part of dus daggas is what WT's are missing. The third part does more than the first 2 parts of dus daggas combined.





http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5306/psu20070417192436027ll6.jpg
Part 1, hits 4 times with normal damage (680 x 4)
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6226/psu20070417192438028qk6.jpg
Part 2, hits 6 times, with less damage (580 x 6)
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3110/psu20070417192439029dq5.jpg
Part 3; hits 9 times, with high damage (800 x 9)

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=ja%7Cen&u=http://psu.fei-yen.jp/wiki/html/DB2FA5D5A5A9A5C8A5F3A5A2A1BCA5C42FA5B9A5ADA5EB.htm l

18(14) 131~140% 51～69% 18(14) 141~150% 77～86% 18(14) 151~160% 87%
2 bodies ## 2Hit 2 bodies ## 3Hit 3 bodies ## 3Hit

part1 hits 2 x 2
part2 hits 2 x 3,
part3 hits 3 x 3



Dus Daggas
Part1: 2720
Part2: 3480
Part3: 7200, more than the first two parts combined (I'll fraps a video later), which is what I'm saying. Right now the level 20 PA skill is missing that extra part, and when shimarisu said WT are better at flying bosses than fF, that's where I disagreed, because they are missing a massive chunk of damage (NOT just stat damage)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-04-20 21:29 ]</font>


The first two strikes of the third combo only hit if you're practically inside the enemy. And against a flying boss, you're probably going to hit ONE part with that third strike, since it has poor range. Not to mention Solomon's suggestion about the option of using said

Furthermore, you act is if the third strike didn't take any time. You're not doing 50% more damage in the same amount of time. It takes you longer. Nice one trying to pull that off. You almost had... wait, nobody. Failure.

And what is this pistol-does-more-than-bow crap? Pistols have poor accuracy. You may be able to do almost as much per shot, but you're not going to hit very often, and you're going to have to be closer to the enemy to fire at all (which isn't going to be easy for you against the likes of Omna or so, especially since you lose a fair portion of your range for his flying).

As for Bow vs. Rifle and SE: Lmao? Rifles are FAR superior for SE application because of the faster fire rate. Bows are for defense-piercing damage.

Damage.

Damage.

Thanks.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2007-04-21 09:11 ]</font>

[Itsuki]

Lets not start a flame thread here. Theres different times and places for that Shim. Its my firm belief that without SE4, no GTs would use bows (unless they were just trying to look "cool"). Both bows and rifles do basically the same function, only have a slightly different method of getting there. Not necessarily worse, but different. I can't think of one monsters (even in the S2 missions you guys don't have yet) where a bow would be superior damage to say... a Card or something. Unless of course, you weren't in range to use the card. Or, you were underleveled for the area.

Anyways, this thread isn't about GTs, this thread is about ATs.

The point of the message was to illustrate that an fT makes a better "gunner" than an AT. Truthfully, neither one makes a very good "gunner", but illustrating that bows get SE4 can help show that fT are better gunners. Even though an AT with its higher ATP and Dualies probably has slightly better, though still rather poor, ranged damage potential.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-21 09:35 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

::Sheepish:: I should probably clear one thing up. When I say ATs make a good gunner, I am thinking that the MAIN source of damage is from techs, then, when something tech resistant (or tech annoying) is encountered, switch to a ranged solution.

Point in fact: techs are not great at handling flying enemies. Cards, (a weapon available to AT, GT, and FT) are also not a great flying enemy tool. Bows are ok...twin pistols are better. Especially for boss fights. (onma, dimma, and that nasssssty, nasssty machine on Moatoob).


AT get twinnies.

What I am NOT saying, is that ATs should not use melee. When onma, and dimma are on the ground, it sure is nice to be able to lay a rising strike, or buten-whatever dagger PA on them with a nice elemental weapon - GTs do not have this option, really, and it IS painful, and...I'm having difficulty thinking of an enemy that cannot be pounded with techs, that I would rather melee...


(aside:On my GT, I use twin pistols on De regan rather than ice bow. The ice bow shoots slow, and thugh I do not have to aim (so I can land more shots), I DO have to move around, lest I be trampled, burned, etc.)





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-21 17:14 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-04-21 09:10, Gamemako wrote:

The first two strikes of the third combo only hit if you're practically inside the enemy. And against a flying boss, you're probably going to hit ONE part with that third strike, since it has poor range. Not to mention Solomon's suggestion about the option of using said

Furthermore, you act is if the third strike didn't take any time. You're not doing 50% more damage in the same amount of time. It takes you longer. Nice one trying to pull that off. You almost had... wait, nobody. Failure.

And what is this pistol-does-more-than-bow crap? Pistols have poor accuracy. You may be able to do almost as much per shot, but you're not going to hit very often, and you're going to have to be closer to the enemy to fire at all (which isn't going to be easy for you against the likes of Omna or so, especially since you lose a fair portion of your range for his flying).

As for Bow vs. Rifle and SE: Lmao? Rifles are FAR superior for SE application because of the faster fire rate. Bows are for defense-piercing damage.

Damage.

Damage.

Thanks.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2007-04-21 09:11 ]</font>


And you act as if WT does the same damage per hit as fF. No they don't. They hit for 25% less damage, I'm pretty sure the 3rd part of the combo is going to add at least another 25% damage. But I guess you don't seem to take everything in consideration at all.


I'd like to see bows outdamage rifles btw lol

[Neith]

You're obviously not using Dus Daggas right then, I use it all the time against Dimma/Onma. The third part hits a good 80% of the time (usually just as Onma starts to take off).

You must be targeting the wrong part of a flying boss to not get the full combo in.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-21 09:29, Itsuki-chan wrote:
Lets not start a flame thread here. Theres different times and places for that Shim. Its my firm belief that without SE4, no GTs would use bows (unless they were just trying to look "cool"). Both bows and rifles do basically the same function, only have a slightly different method of getting there. Not necessarily worse, but different. I can't think of one monsters (even in the S2 missions you guys don't have yet) where a bow would be superior damage to say... a Card or something. Unless of course, you weren't in range to use the card. Or, you were underleveled for the area.

Anyways, this thread isn't about GTs, this thread is about ATs.

The point of the message was to illustrate that an fT makes a better "gunner" than an AT. Truthfully, neither one makes a very good "gunner", but illustrating that bows get SE4 can help show that fT are better gunners. Even though an AT with its higher ATP and Dualies probably has slightly better, though still rather poor, ranged damage potential.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-21 09:35 ]</font>


We get S rank in bows.

We do not get S rank in rifles.

Cards are a different applications to bows and rifles.

We do not get S rank in cards, but we do in crossbows.

With a limited pallette of 36 PAs, which do you suppose is smarter to level up? I'll tell you this. My newman GT who doubles as FT is getting bows and cards. My human GT who doubles as fortegunner, PT and fighgunner, gets rifles, bows and crossbows. And yes the damage between rifle and bow isn't much, that's why I SE with rifle then switch to bow just from damage. And hey, it's a good thing I levelled bow PAs now we get bows as S rank, ain't it?

Underlevelled for the area? What's that? I jump in as soon as I hit qualifier, and I don't play in noob 6 man parties much. Mostly in 2-3 player parties.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-21 14:37 ]</font>

[Nani-chan]

To get back on topic...

Acrotecher has the potential for tier4 (Tier 5?) support techs? Is that buffs, debuffs and resta/reverser? I'm very intrested in knowing the potency, range and duration of such spells.

If damage spells are ATs best damage then yeah there should be allot of newman/human ATs from just the Retier multiplier alone.

I wonder if there will be Freeze/Infection whips. A job that has good Buffs, Nukes, Status effects sounds great. So much potential for AT. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

You're obviously not using Dus Daggas right then, I use it all the time against Dimma/Onma. The third part hits a good 80% of the time (usually just as Onma starts to take off).

against bosses yes, against kog nadds (the creature shown on the damage example), no. But I hardly think that judging a class soley on it's ability to use the third part of a photon art against bosses is a fair analysis.

As most folks know, there are only 2 challenging boss fights, Falkis, and Mr. Moatoo robots. Can you get the full dus duggas off against our friend in Moatoob?...I think not

[Aralia]

Now I think I see why people are yelling at others not to make support AT's, or beast/cast AT's... you're looking at this game like you have to do the highest damage possible at any given time, or be the absolute best at any given time.....

wow... all I have to say to that..

It's a game... take it in stride.

I don't see the point of stressing over a character that you're only going to have a couple years at most until you move on to the next game, or they decide to shut down the servers... ultimatly deleting all your hard work. (personally, I think people can do whatever they want, I haven't seen enough ACTUAL damage difference between the race/classes to think it matters if you're a newman fT or a cast fT. [friend of mine is a cast fT and I'm a newman fT and out numbers weren't THAT far apart])

[-Asheth-]

Now I think I see why people are yelling at others not to make support AT's, or beast/cast AT's... you're looking at this game like you have to do the highest damage possible at any given time, or be the absolute best at any given time.....

wow... all I have to say to that..

It's a game... take it in stride.

I don't see the point of stressing over a character that you're only going to have a couple years at most until you move on to the next game, or they decide to shut down the servers... ultimatly deleting all your hard work. (personally, I think people can do whatever they want, I haven't seen enough ACTUAL damage difference between the race/classes to think it matters if you're a newman fT or a cast fT. [friend of mine is a cast fT and I'm a newman fT and out numbers weren't THAT far apart])

That is part of the problem. But its 2 fold in my opinion some ppl just cant get things into there head right when numbers and facts are right in front of them I just dont know some ppl just dont get it.

It seems like some of the ppl that are arguing for putting cast or beast in acrotechers class or WT are looking at it like. WT lvl 30 skills == FF lvl 30 skills. Or Acrofighter lvl 30 skills = FF lvl 30 skills no. Or acrotecher lvl 30 bullets = gt lvl 30 bullets. Or because jobs have an attribute that a forte class has that there for they are just as good at the job. Nobody is paying attention to the numbers.

PPL think acrotechers can be some melee monster. When I switched from Figunner to WT i was like ewww my damage is pathetic. Just because I can melee and tech doesnt mean im the best at it. Its all in the numbers. But nobody pays attention. Acrotechers get 20,30,30,50 so they will be all powerful. Looking in the numbers there ATP will be lower than what I have now as a wartecher if they get hit it will hurt and the right crit there hp will disappear fast. I just dont see how ppl can argue with out looking at the numbers that ppl are posting about the class. I can figure for myself that as acrotecher a human will lost in the atp battle to beast and cast but win in tp battle. Therefore be better at the class because there tp is better than beast and cast. so if beast tries to make acrotecher a melee class then he is waisting his pa slots and frags and slowing down the party. if beast concentrates on attack techs and has debuffs and heals he is more effective than trying to melee with the class. That is what ppl are trying to explain in here thats all.

I thought WT were going to be unbalanced with the new additions until i looked in the Q&A Thread were you can answer all your questions. Now i see a slight boost in atp not to much slight boost in tp and small boost in dfp. Excellent. WT are out damaging PT or FG now because ppl see lvl 30 Skills!!!! I can tear it up now!!! NO NO NO. Im not saying dont use what abilities the jobs give you but look at the numbers first anyone should be able to figure it out for themselves.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-22 17:43 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-23 08:50 ]</font>

[Paramedic]

I just have to say...

Best thread ever.

[Pillan]

I think I’ll throw a few more thoughts of my own out here.

The first one is simple damage versus damage per time. Most people don’t seem to realize how over powered Buten Shuren-zan really is. At level 20, it has 150% ATP and 80% ATA along with 3 buffed attacks to 2 enemies in front and 4 attacks to 3 enemies all around at incredibly high speed. It’s basically level 30 Renkai without the lame first attack and an extra 20% power. After that you can add in the fact that single daggers have more ATP and about the same PP (which makes me wonder why twin daggers would ever be preferred over single).

Gravity Strike is another godly PA worth mentioning, but I won’t bother focusing on it. Just use it like a Dus Daggas substitute. There really isn’t that much of a difference.

So, yeah, simply put, as long as there are less than 4 targets, Buten Shuren-zan will deal more damage than Dambarta even on a Newman. (Don’t forget to take into concideration that Dambarta will only have 2-3 ticks in the time that Buten Shuren-zan completes its 18 hit combo). You can do the real calculation yourself if you want, but I’m sure you’ll come to the same conclusion.

But, yeah, my current point is that even though technique damage will always be higher as a human or Newman AT, techniques can still have a lower damage per time. We can all agree that Dambarta beats everything once you have 6 targets in range, but it’s very debatable before that. Also consider how often you’ll fight more than 3 targets. The only time I can think of is soloing, but I suspect that, like the majority of PSU, you’ll spend most of your time in a team.

The thing that annoys me the most about this topic, though, is the fact that everyone is acting like level 30 techs and skills mean anything. You have to remember that 30 is the new 20. Anyone who has 30 of a PA is gimped compared to the Forte classes, which is double jeopardy considering the fact that they already have significantly lower stats. So, seriously, don’t act like you’re actually dealing a decent amount of damage.

On top of that, ATs are additionally gimped due to their use of Madoogs and lack of S rank Wands or Rods. Since the 10 star wand is already released, WTs have a huge advantage in magic damage, making AT the weakest of the 3 classes that can even consider using damage techniques (I won’t bother counting GT).

So, yes, without the 50 support techniques put into consideration, WT kills AT in both magic and melee damage. It’s hard to name classes that doesn’t beat AT’s ranged abilities either. Their only real use to the team is their support.

At this point you’ve probably noticed that an extra 5% buff won’t make up for the constant damage that a good fT would be dealing on your team. The only way you could hope to make up for that is constantly spamming Zalure and Reteel (even though that technique doesn’t exist yet, I hope they add it to AoI). So, yeah, you’re really a waste of space if you don’t focus on constantly debuffing everything before you begin your attack. You would still be a waste, but, fortunately for us, fTs never debuff.

So, yeah, just thought I’d throw those facts out there. AT and WT are probably the most useless classes to a team currently. FG and AF deal decent melee damage and make up their difference with effect 3 burn (which hits subbosses as often as effect 4 infection). GT can status spam as well as an fG PLUS they can play support and heal with their level 30 support techs and doubled TP. PT has their EX traps. WT is pretty useless since it just deals slightly more melee and tech damage than AT, but they have the weakest support. AT just isn’t worth wasting a slot on your team if you can get a good fT.

But, of course, I’ll always say play whatever style you want. Doesn’t really matter what race you use since you’re slowing down the team regardless. It’s rare that any of this will become an issue unless you’re playing with an elitist.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-23 13:03 ]</font>

[Tra]

you're right, AT are weak as hell

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-23 10:37, Pillan wrote:
On top of that, ATs are additionally gimped due to their use of Madoogs and lack of S rank Wands or Rods. Since the 10 star wand is already released, WTs have a huge advantage in magic damage, making AT the weakest of the 3 classes that can even consider using damage techniques (I won’t bother counting GT).

You state this and you aren't even aware of how strong S rank madoogs may be. AT already has an advantage of higher TP; weapons don't mean everything. Besides, there's a 9* wand that once ground a bit, is stronger than the 10* wand, which is barely stronger than the normal 9* one.



So, yes, without the 50 support techniques put into consideration, WT kills AT in both magic and melee damage. It’s hard to name classes that doesn’t beat AT’s ranged abilities either. Their only real use to the team is their support.

A WT won't win out with melee/tech combat since AT is optimized in using both at the same time. You've obviously never played an AT, so what can I expect?



AT and WT are probably the most useless classes to a team currently.

This proves you are clueless about things http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Everything else is just not worth my time >.>;

[TorterraEndor]

You lost all credibility for even trying to compare AT to WT.

[Itsuki]

On 2007-04-23 15:30, TorterraEndor wrote:
You lost all credibility for even trying to compare AT to WT.


Word to that, the entire post loses all credibility becuase hes trying to argue that the two classes have the same purpose.

If you remain narrow minded, then you can never see the light.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-23 15:38 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Wow… I was hoping I would receive a more interesting response than that.

So, yeah, everyone knows that Madoogs have less TP and PP than Wands. But, I’ve never seen anyone post exactly how much. Now a Newman female has about 1000 TP at level 100 according to PSUpedia’s stat database (996). The difference between WT and AT is 18% TP, which means if the wand has 180 TP more than the Madoog, the WT is dealing more spell damage. If you’re willing to post the actual value of a Madoog of any rank, you can compare the stat to a YC wand of the same rank and then estimate the value at the higher ranks. We all know the TP gap will widen with higher rank weapons, NOT become smaller (aside from unique Kubaras, of course).

The next consideration is slightly silly. Sure you can grind an A rank, but you can also grind an S rank. Anyone on the US PS2 servers can tell you S ranks grind better than A ranks (thanks to past events), so the difference will only increase from there. You might be able to keep up with 10 stars for a while, but what happens when they release 11 stars? 12 stars? 15 stars? Weapons DO mean everything unless you’re playing ranger.

Also I’m slightly confused about your point on the simultaneous optimization of melee and technique use. I mean, sure it’s nice, but as long as you’re not on a PS2 it really doesn’t matter. I can already see WT’s pallet consisting of 2 melee weapons, 2 damage wands (more or less depending on race and area), and a heal/shield and buff madoog and wand combo. Also the small pallet isn’t much of an issue if you’ve ever played a melee class. You burn through about 12 weapons per run, so you’re probably used to it by now.

But, yeah, I suppose I never will see “the light” in this case, since it’s clearly a false one. You can’t possibly try to argue to me that WT or AT makes some overall vast contribution to the team that one of the other classes couldn’t do better. Though I would like to see you try this time, rather than simply dismissing my argument as based on a lack of experience.

I don’t really see a huge difference between AT and WT besides the fact that AT is the only one with the hopes of being useful. Let’s not try to argue about technique casting speed, since it really won’t matter when you’re point blanking with Diga or using a Dam-spell in general. And you guys have already stated that AT’s weapon speed won’t offset the ATP difference.

Well, skip all that for now. The most important part is for you to tackle the “30 is the new 20” argument. Why will anyone care about how much either class does with damage techs when an fT has an extra 10-20% damage mod, higher effect level, the use of rods, AND higher base TP?

On a final note, I want to make sure you know my stance on the subject. Playing for fun is fine, but I don't want anyone to argue that you can make a class that sucks at damage period become more than decent with a certain combination. Sure human and Newman can deal more technique damage which can yeild more overall damage if they hit a crowd, but it won't make up for the fact that you're doing less than everyone else.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-23 16:44 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

If you remain narrow minded, then you can never see the light.

I'm sorry, who is narrow minded again? The person who tries to consider two classes with the same purpose, or the person who says it's not possible?

Shame on you, Itsuki.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I still say that Sounomi wins this thread. I do hope that Newmans and maybe Humans make the best Acrotechers cuz these classes are a way to give these races hope, especially Newmans. Fortetecher needs a class that can compete with them in terms of tech damage. Acrotecher may have that ability in the hands of a Newman, along with better support spells and at least SOME melee ability, not to mention higher defense and evasion, so you're more durable.

[Pillan]

I decided I’d go ahead and throw in a Buten Shuren-zan vs Dambarta calculation to prove my little point about its ability to out damage techniques even on a Newman when there is a low quantity of targets. I’ll be using the PSUpedia level 100 Newman female stats, the Acrotecher class level 10 stat multiplier, the 9 star YC single dagger, and the 9 star YC wand (both ungrinded). Buten Shuren-zan will be considered at level 20 and Dambarta at level 30.

So the Newman AT’s ATP and TP would be 562 and 1294, respectively.

Adding the dagger and wand, that becomes 951 and 1835.

Adding in the PAs, you now have 1427 and 2386. I’ll go ahead and divide them by 5 here so you can just read the actual damage values if the enemy had zero defense: 285 and 477.

Now, of course real enemies do have defense, so you can subtract an additional 40 from that number (I’m borrowing that from Itsuki’s standard 200 DFP assumption), giving you 245 and 437.

So, under the three target assumption, we know Buten Shuren-zan will use all 18 of its hits and in the same time Dambarta will run for three ticks to those 3 targets. So Buten Shuren-zan would do a total of 4410 damage and Dambarta would be slightly lagging behind at 3933. If we add in the consideration that you’ll probably have a dagger with about 20% element for every enemy type, that number is boosted to around 5292. Tra was telling me something about an additional hidden element percent in techniques and if you know how to apply that to this calculation, go ahead. But it really doesn’t matter since you’re not going to be fighting fire enemies all the time.

Now, clearly, if there are more than 3 targets, Dambarta (or any Gi-spell) will win, as I stated earlier, but at low numbers of targets (the realistic number in a party), the single dagger wins. On the other end of the spectrum, Diga wins when there’s only 1 enemy with a single target icon.

If you see anything wrong with this calculation, please feel free to point it out for me. This is my first time doing one, after all.

Oh, as one final note, I ignored the fact that the first 3 attacks (6 hits) of Buten Shuren-zan have an additional ATP bonus, so it actually would do a bit more than calculated.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-24 10:20 ]</font>

[Itsuki]

If you want your arguements to be torn apart that much, I will~

On 2007-04-23 16:28, Pillan wrote:
So, yeah, everyone knows that Madoogs have less TP and PP than Wands. But, I’ve never seen anyone post exactly how much.
It has been stated that although lower, its about equivalent to that of a YOUMEI wand. Most S-rank wands are youmei last I checked. So they can basically be considered equally powerful.


Anyone on the US PS2 servers can tell you S ranks grind better than A ranks (thanks to past events), so the difference will only increase from there.
This is only true to a certain extent. S-ranks sometimes grind differently. But most S-ranks are still main-manufacturer. Its only the "unique" S-ranks that truly grind better. And just as there are unique S-ranks, theres unique A-ranks that grind differently aswell. And as the higher rank weapons are introduced the level cap is raised aswell. By the time the higher rank stuff is introduced, the level cap may be 150. That 180tp difference will be a lot bigger.


Also I’m slightly confused about your point on the simultaneous optimization of melee and technique use. I mean, sure it’s nice, but as long as you’re not on a PS2 it really doesn’t matter.
I don't see why being on ps2 makes a difference. Infact, I don't think it would at all (unless you know something I don't. But Sounomi is more referring to the equipping of melee weapons and madoogs simultaneously and using BOTH at the same time. Something that you can't do with a wand without switching to a different part of your palette. This allows you to regen PP on both the melee weapon AND the madoog. And hit the optimal number of targets. If theres a large number of mobs at first, you can start off with a damu / gi. And as the number dwindles down, you can easily switch to dagger skills without having to switch weapons.


But, yeah, I suppose I never will see “the light” in this case, since it’s clearly a false one. You can’t possibly try to argue to me that WT or AT makes some overall vast contribution to the team that one of the other classes couldn’t do better.
This is why most people ignore you. Because this is plain flame bait. Its obvious you're only posting to try to piss people off, and most people realize that and laugh your entire post off. If you wanted people to take you seriously, you wouldn't post like this.

But, in response, it depends on the layout of the party, size of the party, and the area you are in. WT do excel in areas like rainbow beast with mixes of magic and melee resistant mobs. They also are alot more reliable in smaller parties, where not all roles can be filled. Sometimes yes, an fF and another Fo woudl be better, but if you can't get both, a WT/AT is a good replacement.

WT,AT, and even GT are also safeguards in parties. They still deal out the damage and do their job, and have the ability to do some support and tech damage, without the need of a force. Or, in most cases, just taking some of the responsibilities off of the force.


Well, skip all that for now. The most important part is for you to tackle the “30 is the new 20” argument. Why will anyone care about how much either class does with damage techs when an fT has an extra 10-20% damage mod, higher effect level, the use of rods, AND higher base TP?
Actually, 30% damage mod. But again, this is about versatility, not playing a single role to its max. And its your narrow mindedness about this, that is the biggest fault. Of course hybrids will never do any 1 thing better than a forte class. Thats the point of the forte classes being forte, and a hybrid class being hybrid. You're putting yourself in a little hypocritical of a situation here. Because you're also defending other hybrid classes that have the same faults your complaining WT and AT have. How are we supposed to agree with you if you can't even agree with yourself?


On a final note, I want to make sure you know my stance on the subject. Playing for fun is fine, but I don't want anyone to argue that you can make a class that sucks at damage period become more than decent with a certain combination.
Playing off of your AT/WT are weak points, this is sort of the whole point. You don't want to make a weak class weaker. And the arguement against beast/cast is that the class is based around versatility, and playing beast/cast removes that versatility. Its about not making the class weaker than it already is.


Now, clearly, if there are more than 3 targets, Dambarta (or any Gi-spell) will win, as I stated earlier, but at low numbers of targets (the realistic number in a party), the single dagger wins. On the other end of the spectrum, Diga wins when there’s only 1 enemy with a single target icon.
This is only taking certain things into consideration. You can argue a skill vs and other skill, or argue a ranged weapon vs another ranged weapon. But when arguing techs involved, it gets a bit more grey. Even against 3 targets, Damubarta usually wins. Why? Because you're safe while casting it. It has the knockback and freeze effect, you don't have to worry so much about adjusting or being hit.

But against less targets, why would you even be using damubarta? It doesn't even make sense. fT aren't even dumb enough to do that. You'd be using like... diga or foie or something. Or, since you are an AT, you would be meleeing, and then that would make it a perfect arguement as to why AT/WT aren't useless.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:

But against less targets, why would you even be using damubarta? It doesn't even make sense. fT aren't even dumb enough to do that. You'd be using like... diga or foie or something. Or, since you are an AT, you would be meleeing, and then that would make it a perfect arguement as to why AT/WT aren't useless.




My only gripe is that their melee is weak... as hell

lol

[Pillan]

I enjoyed reading that post. It was a very well thought out post that corrected a few things I didn’t take into consideration myself and help clear them up, so I think you. Now to continue this discussion since it’s actually going somewhere.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
It has been stated that although lower, its about equivalent to that of a YOUMEI wand. Most S-rank wands are youmei last I checked. So they can basically be considered equally powerful.


Ah. I didn’t realize that. That would clearly make AT a bit stronger with techniques.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
This is only true to a certain extent. S-ranks sometimes grind differently. But most S-ranks are still main-manufacturer. Its only the "unique" S-ranks that truly grind better. And just as there are unique S-ranks, theres unique A-ranks that grind differently aswell. And as the higher rank weapons are introduced the level cap is raised aswell. By the time the higher rank stuff is introduced, the level cap may be 150. That 180tp difference will be a lot bigger.


I’ll have to call you out there. Check the grind stats on the JP wiki. Overall C ranks gain the most per grind, B ranks a little less, and A ranks even less. I don’t know how S compares to C and B, but I did notice that they clearly gained more per grind than A (I would assume it’s random with each weapon). Kubaras gain a little more per grind in each rank, but that usually doesn’t offset their weakness in the A rank regime.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I don't see why being on ps2 makes a difference. Infact, I don't think it would at all (unless you know something I don't. But Sounomi is more referring to the equipping of melee weapons and madoogs simultaneously and using BOTH at the same time. Something that you can't do with a wand without switching to a different part of your palette. This allows you to regen PP on both the melee weapon AND the madoog. And hit the optimal number of targets. If theres a large number of mobs at first, you can start off with a damu / gi. And as the number dwindles down, you can easily switch to dagger skills without having to switch weapons.


If you’re on a PS2, you’ll suffer the pains of weapon lag between switching. That was the only point I was making there.

Switching weapons doesn’t drain that much time and pretty much every mission I’ve played has a higher reward value than the recharge cost of the PP drain (unless I’m soloing of course), so I wouldn’t consider it a big issue. However, you can definitely look at it as a plus if you really care about the extra 300 meseta.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
This is why most people ignore you. Because this is plain flame bait. Its obvious you're only posting to try to piss people off, and most people realize that and laugh your entire post off. If you wanted people to take you seriously, you wouldn't post like this.


The entire concept of “X race is better than Y at [insert class here]” is flame bate. Like I said, my focal point is that they’re the worst two classes in the game and you really don’t get that much improvement either way.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
But, in response, it depends on the layout of the party, size of the party, and the area you are in. WT do excel in areas like rainbow beast with mixes of magic and melee resistant mobs. They also are alot more reliable in smaller parties, where not all roles can be filled. Sometimes yes, an fF and another Fo woudl be better, but if you can't get both, a WT/AT is a good replacement.


I agree with that entirely, but my only point is that the team would be more efficient with the fT and any other melee type or hybrid.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
WT,AT, and even GT are also safeguards in parties. They still deal out the damage and do their job, and have the ability to do some support and tech damage, without the need of a force. Or, in most cases, just taking some of the responsibilities off of the force.


I wouldn’t include GT in this group. GT already has the ability to cast effects as easily as an fG, and that’s really all that matters (since burn spam outdoes the natural damage either class can do). And, assuming GT does gain the AoI beta stats, it would become a better force substitute than WT (higher damage from burn spam and higher support from the tech level difference) which more than makes up for the ATP difference.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
Actually, 30% damage mod. But again, this is about versatility, not playing a single role to its max. And its your narrow mindedness about this, that is the biggest fault. Of course hybrids will never do any 1 thing better than a forte class. Thats the point of the forte classes being forte, and a hybrid class being hybrid. You're putting yourself in a little hypocritical of a situation here. Because you're also defending other hybrid classes that have the same faults your complaining WT and AT have. How are we supposed to agree with you if you can't even agree with yourself?


The other classes have the same PA level in one field (stopping the double jeopardy that WT and AT face) AND an ability in another field that the forte-classes clearly lack. FG can use traps and has burn 3 bullets, which have the ability to hit subbosses, therefore making up for the difference between it an fF. AF has the burn 3 bullets once again. GT can play support force and still deal the same effect damage as fG. PT has specialized traps and higher trap damage in general, allowing it to hit those shield enemies that become immune to bullet effects. WT and AT have significantly less damage and effect than their forte derivatives. Sure they’re more versatile than the other partial classes, but that makes them weaker in every field. AT, however, makes up for this by getting 10 levels higher of support than fT, but I’m sure everyone can see that this won’t make up for the loss of damage output from the fT unless you’re buffing and debuffing everything so that the rest of the team covers the deficiency.


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
This is only taking certain things into consideration. You can argue a skill vs and other skill, or argue a ranged weapon vs another ranged weapon. But when arguing techs involved, it gets a bit more grey. Even against 3 targets, Damubarta usually wins. Why? Because you're safe while casting it. It has the knockback and freeze effect, you don't have to worry so much about adjusting or being hit.


If you’re in a party, you’re probably not going to get hit hard mid PA for that to get canceled, unless it’s unusually fast and powerful enemies like Go Vahra and Dejaban, but those guys manage to get everyone regardless of what you’re using. The flinching and freezing from Dambarta usually won’t offset the incoming rape. Of course we can all agree that melee is a bad choice as any race combination of an AT against a Kog Nadd. I block that way too often as a FG (it wouldn’t be an issue if I didn’t wear a dark Ganna, but I’m stubborn).


On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
But against less targets, why would you even be using damubarta? It doesn't even make sense. fT aren't even dumb enough to do that. You'd be using like... diga or foie or something. Or, since you are an AT, you would be meleeing, and then that would make it a perfect arguement as to why AT/WT aren't useless.


I guess I should change the word “useful” to “efficient”. Their versatility does give them some use, but it still doesn’t offset the fact that you’ll notice a significant mission completion time difference if you substitute them for any other class (assuming you have 1 hunter, 1 ranger, and 1 force type in the team regardless), which was the focal point of what I previously defined as useful and this whole argument.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-24 13:18, Tra wrote:

On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
But against less targets, why would you even be using damubarta? It doesn't even make sense. fT aren't even dumb enough to do that. You'd be using like... diga or foie or something. Or, since you are an AT, you would be meleeing, and then that would make it a perfect arguement as to why AT/WT aren't useless.

My only gripe is that their melee is weak... as hell

lol

Weak compared to what? An fF? Of course it will be since fFs won't be shoving techs at the targets while they're meleeing. This is one of those classes that cna't judge purely by looking at things on paper, you need to get out and play it, with its unique playing style.

[Para]

On 2007-04-24 14:45, Sounomi wrote:

On 2007-04-24 13:18, Tra wrote:

On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
But against less targets, why would you even be using damubarta? It doesn't even make sense. fT aren't even dumb enough to do that. You'd be using like... diga or foie or something. Or, since you are an AT, you would be meleeing, and then that would make it a perfect arguement as to why AT/WT aren't useless.

My only gripe is that their melee is weak... as hell

lol

Weak compared to what? An fF? Of course it will be since fFs won't be shoving techs at the targets while they're meleeing. This is one of those classes that cna't judge purely by looking at things on paper, you need to get out and play it, with its unique playing style.

I dont think its so much the unique playing style but what they've been stressing is efficiency throughout the mission and completing the mission fast.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 14:45, Sounomi wrote:

On 2007-04-24 13:18, Tra wrote:

On 2007-04-24 11:23, Itsuki-chan wrote:
But against less targets, why would you even be using damubarta? It doesn't even make sense. fT aren't even dumb enough to do that. You'd be using like... diga or foie or something. Or, since you are an AT, you would be meleeing, and then that would make it a perfect arguement as to why AT/WT aren't useless.

My only gripe is that their melee is weak... as hell

lol

Weak compared to what? An fF? Of course it will be since fFs won't be shoving techs at the targets while they're meleeing. This is one of those classes that cna't judge purely by looking at things on paper, you need to get out and play it, with its unique playing style.



Hmm when I'm fT, I wonder who I'd rather have as a partner... an AT, or a fF? Dunno such a hard decision!!!!

Sorry, fun in my eyes is efficiency... I can prove it from what I've done before heh heh

[TorterraEndor]

Since when does PSU only allow 1 or 2 people in groups?

I believe groups work better with more people. I guess yor WT/AT hate doesn't let you see it, though.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 15:08, TorterraEndor wrote:
Since when does PSU only allow 1 or 2 people in groups?

I believe groups work better with more people. I guess yor WT/AT hate doesn't let you see it, though.




you're right, I'll take 4 fortefighters and a fortegunner

[-Shimarisu-]

Forte elitists are hilarious.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Lol, yeah. Its like "Oh, your techs suck cuz fTs are the best", "Your melee sux cuz fFs are the best", "Your gunning sux cuz fG's are the best". Seriously.

[-Shimarisu-]

Yet none of them realise they are not the best, at all because partying in 6 man teams constantly is about the most laughable cakewalk in online gaming.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 15:39, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Yet none of them realise they are not the best, at all because partying in 6 man teams constantly is about the most laughable cakewalk in online gaming.




lol it wasn't me that suggested that I needed a party of more than 2 people, read up a couple posts

[-Shimarisu-]

Also it seems Tra went FF on his newman for a bit so it's not like he has any room to be a stat maxxing elitist.

Really wondering if his forte buddies felt inadequate with him on the team there.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 15:41, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Also it seems Tra went FF on his newman for a bit so it's not like he has any room to be a stat maxxing elitist.

Really wondering if his forte buddies felt inadequate with him on the team there.




Yep, I'll be leveling WT after fF http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-24 15:40, Tra wrote:

On 2007-04-24 15:39, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Yet none of them realise they are not the best, at all because partying in 6 man teams constantly is about the most laughable cakewalk in online gaming.




lol it wasn't me that suggested that I needed a party of more than 2 people, read up a couple posts



Well you see, it's like this.

I usually play in 2-3 man teams. What this basically requires to be efficient (on 360, we don't like spending too much on dimates pre S2) is one techer, any techer.

We're all running with our lvl 50 lowbies atm to get to 55. Running Eastern Peril. There's usually 2-3 of us, but more can join.

I switched my newman to GT because shooting stuff at distance at higher damage, EVEN ON THESE LOW PLAYER TEAMS is more efficient than going FT, because shit dies too fast. Yet it's also more efficient than being fortegunner, because then we aren't wasting dimates.

I do multiple jobs on all my chars now, but sometimes being a hybrid to fulfil two missing roles in a low player party is better than going forte.

AndI'd RATHER play in low man teams. And maximise efficiency within them. Because when you get the balance perfect, you might take 1.5 times the time of a 6 man party, but you do get double the rares.

Hybrids are just far better for this method of play. They are also better for jumping into public games, unless you're a fucking FT because noob players only want you for resta.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-24 15:50 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 15:49, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2007-04-24 15:40, Tra wrote:

On 2007-04-24 15:39, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Yet none of them realise they are not the best, at all because partying in 6 man teams constantly is about the most laughable cakewalk in online gaming.




lol it wasn't me that suggested that I needed a party of more than 2 people, read up a couple posts



Well you see, it's like this.

I usually play in 2-3 man teams. What this basically requires to be efficient (on 360, we don't like spending too much on dimates pre S2) is one techer, any techer.

We're all running with our lvl 50 lowbies atm to get to 55. Running Eastern Peril. There's usually 2-3 of us, but more can join.

I switched my newman to GT because shooting stuff at distance at higher damage, EVEN ON THESE LOW PLAYER TEAMS is more efficient than going FT, because shit dies too fast. Yet it's also more efficient than being fortegunner, because then we aren't wasting dimates.

I do multiple jobs on all my chars now, but sometimes being a hybrid to fulfil two missing roles in a low player party is better than going forte.

AndI'd RATHER play in low man teams. And maximise efficiency within them. Because when you get the balance perfect, you might take 1.5 times the time of a 6 man party, but you do get double the rares.

Hybrids are just far better for this method of play. They are also better for jumping into public games, unless you're a fucking FT because noob players only want you for resta.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-24 15:50 ]</font>


See, I think we're in totally different worlds here...
4 months ago I do this
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=132503&forum=20&start=135&150#139

and you talk about 3-manning mid-level missions.

Play however you want to play Shima, don't say it's the best. I'm not telling others to not play AT/WT, they just need to face the facts that they are at a disadvantage in overall use (compared to GT, who have more than just techs + weak melee, or compared to the damage potential of a FG). Play however you want, don't categorize the hybrid classes as if they're all the same, they're not. I like GT and FG.

[-Shimarisu-]

Whereas I don't find Bruce's to be efficient at all, because cobbling together enough people to play it to max times takes longer than just going off and doing something else.

And my main is GT, level 76/10, and I do play in 6 man teams. When they are available. A party of 6 tolerable people generally is not, and even if they are I wasn't in time to make it into their party.

I'm getting all my characters into S2 right at this stage of the game, and unlike you I wouldn't put FF on a newman. I see the use of too many melee PAs on newman as a waste of tech PAs. Hell even in my GT job role on newman I ONLY use bow/cards and killer shot, because I'm levelling his bow and card PAs for FT/AT oh no! And killer shot is just lolexperience when you team with another gunner with it.

And my human GT plays mostly with rifles and crossbows.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-24 16:08 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 16:06, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Whereas I don't find Bruce's to be efficient at all, because cobbling together enough people to play it to max times takes longer than just going off and doing something else.

And my main is GT, level 76/10, and I do play in 6 man teams. When they are available. A party of 6 tolerable people generally is not, and even if they are I wasn't in time to make it into their party.

I'm getting all my characters into S2 right at this stage of the game, and unlike you I wouldn't put FF on a newman. I see the use of too many melee PAs on newman as a waste of tech PAs. Hell even in my GT job role I ONLY use bow/cards and killer shot, because I'm levelling his bow and card PAs for FT/AT oh no! And killer shot is just lolexperience when you team with another gunner with it.



I'm doing it for fun, I'm getting rid of Splendor Crush once it hits 21, I'm going to be getting rid of Dus Daggas as well. Tornado Dance, I MIGHT keep, I got it just for the fun psycho-crusher novelty, but it's tempting to be deleted since actually using it is lame. The only bullet PAs I have are fire arrows and ice arrows, I'll probably be getting rid of those too, if something more interesting comes along.

Much like Lyrise, whom in the screenshots thread I saw earlier with all jobs at level 10, my friend Rosara is the same. She is a newman, with only dus daggas and renkai as melee PAs, Killer Shot, Twin Mayalee and 4 of the bow PAs as bullets, rest are 25? techs... everything at lv30.

I would say that she's pretty much the perfect all-around newman since she also has the gear for all of those classes heh heh.



oh and just to clarify, if I'm bringing her with me to any place that we're going to take seriously, yes of course I'm making her turn fT


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-04-24 16:15 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

Tra I just realised you're making fun of me for playing lowbies in mid missions, like I haven't got a 70+ at all. At least I'm not lazy and I have 4 characters, all of whom will play optimal roles for their race (bar my beast fG which well, isn't bad at all as I've outlined before.)

I just would rather have 4 characters in S2 eventually (my newman is one level off) and take advantage of shit like luck and have them all at optimal damage, than do stuff like max several jobs including FF on a newman (worst race at multitasking) just because you basically cannot bear to get out of the elite S2 missions.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 16:12, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Tra I just realised you're making fun of me for playing lowbies in mid missions, like I haven't got a 70+ at all. At least I'm not lazy and I have 4 characters, all of whom will play optimal roles for their race (bar my beast fG which well, isn't bad at all as I've outlined before.)

I just would rather have 4 characters in S2 eventually (my newman is one level off) and take advantage of shit like luck and have them all at optimal damage, than do stuff like max several jobs including FF on a newman (worst race at multitasking) just because you basically cannot bear to get out of the elite S2 missions.




Oh that's the thing shimarisu, I don't play much. Not after I finished everything that I need to do, leaving this game contentless, even no A rginders. I log on, help my newbie friends level, cyber, log off. If I wanted a new character I can do it, but you're right, I'm just too lazy and I just don't take this game seriously enough like you do!

[AweOfShe]

On 2007-04-24 16:12, -Shimarisu- wrote:
FF on a newman (worst race at multitasking)


Yeah, if you're completely abysmal at the game it is. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

can Tra and Shir please ,stop w the personal attacks? Tra..do you really have the balls to say Shir takes the game too serioulsy after you got to level 80, mere HOURS after tha cap was raised?

ON TOPIC: I play 1 forte type, and I do enjoy it (Fortefighter), but it IS super annoying that there are many siturations I'm rather usless in. Fighting tengohgs, on S rank, for example. I'm sure my 200 pts of damage a shot is very little help, and it's literally all I can do. Going melee on a tengogh is useless (maybe if I had high ice% 7-9 fists, but I don't - nor do most).

hybrids - even newman WTs, are great. Sure if you have a 6 person party it does not really matter, but, being on the 360, I hate large parties for the slowdown.

..and for the idiocyncracies of "set in order"

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I only read the first page, because I don't have time.


I originally thought AT would be great for my Beast, and much more like melee FOmar in terms of play. The support techs really drew my eye.



Then I tried it on the beta, and honestly, it was easy enough to solo, but it was not nearly what I thought it would be. Now, I'm content keeping my Beast as a WT. I'll probably level AT too, but only for something else to do with the character when I'm done capping WT to 20. I'm also now thinking that my male Newman Force who I originally intended to make into a pure-tech Fortecher may also dabble in AT just for the hell of it, and because he'll probably fare better than my Beast.


I'm still pissed off that WT will be outsupported by GT, fucking RAmarls.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-04-24 20:50 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I'm still pissed off that WT will be outsupported by GT, fucking RAmarls RAnewms.

corrected
;-p

[Tra]

On 2007-04-24 19:42, SolomonGrundy wrote:
can Tra and Shir please ,stop w the personal attacks? Tra..do you really have the balls to say Shir takes the game too serioulsy after you got to level 80, mere HOURS after tha cap was raised?

ON TOPIC: I play 1 forte type, and I do enjoy it (Fortefighter), but it IS super annoying that there are many siturations I'm rather usless in. Fighting tengohgs, on S rank, for example. I'm sure my 200 pts of damage a shot is very little help, and it's literally all I can do. Going melee on a tengogh is useless (maybe if I had high ice% 7-9 fists, but I don't - nor do most).

hybrids - even newman WTs, are great. Sure if you have a 6 person party it does not really matter, but, being on the 360, I hate large parties for the slowdown.

..and for the idiocyncracies of "set in order"



lol you call playing for 2 days and stopping "taking the game too seriously"? It's a simple task, take the extra effort to level, it's so easy. 12 minute Desert Goliath S runs get you to 80 very, very fast. Much faster than meddling around at lv50 on 4 different characters "just to enjoy" the game. Afterwards, you don't need to play much, you're free to do anything, such as going outside and argue on the forums with people like Shimarisu. I think I've been trading insults with her for like, a couple months now, I dunno lol, she's old, that's why.


I don't take fortefighters to tengohs if I don't have to, I pass on them and call in gunner friends instead. Simple, no?

[SolomonGrundy]

I don't take fortefighters to tengohs if I don't have to, I pass on them and call in gunner friends instead. Simple, no?

not so simple if you are the fortefighter.
I cannot wait, tra, for sega to make a mission or 2 featuring high tech resistant enemies that move fast and hit hard, ending the fT reign.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-25 00:10, SolomonGrundy wrote:

I don't take fortefighters to tengohs if I don't have to, I pass on them and call in gunner friends instead. Simple, no?

not so simple if you are the fortefighter.
I cannot wait, tra, for sega to make a mission or 2 featuring high tech resistant enemies that move fast and hit hard, ending the fT reign.





Naw if my damage is to somehow be rended completely useless by any means, like how you just stated, I'd either change to acrotecher for extra buffs (if that mission comes after AoI), or just remain fT and buff and cast techs for damage anyway. I do have a job other than damage ya know, a simple one, but it's there http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif You have the option of switching classes as well, FG perhaps?

[Itsuki]

On 2007-04-25 00:24, Tra wrote:
Naw if my damage is to somehow be rended completely useless by any means, like how you just stated, I'd either change to acrotecher for extra buffs (if that mission comes after AoI), or just remain fT and buff and cast techs for damage anyway. I do have a job other than damage ya know, a simple one, but it's there http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif You have the option of switching classes as well, FG perhaps?

Thats the glory of it all. You can switch depending on the situation. Even though I'm GT. I'll always also be fG when the situation needs it. And when AT comes in, I'll be AT when the situation calls for it.

Being able to change class at will is as much part of the system as not having the right person in party.

And lyrise is almost always GT or fT now a days. Seems GT a lot more in smaller parties. GTs always did make better soloers in S2 (don't flame me on that one, but having reliable infect/burn, the ability to resta, and the ability to stay at a safe distance while still dealing respectable damage tends to win against most classes).


I cannot wait, tra, for sega to make a mission or 2 featuring high tech resistant enemies that move fast and hit hard, ending the fT reign.
Actually, you know, most of the AoI missions feature enemies with hard hitting long and mid range attacks. It actually made forces and PTs relative liabilities. They still could deal some good damage, they just couldn't do it all taht effectively without dying.

They did remove the death penalty in AoI, and I'm tempted to say its because they wanted to make harder missions that didn't overly punish the player. Its a different feel... having the ability to die without punishment... but also not being able to stop yourself from dying half the time. Its a bit more... fast paced and chaotic feeling.

But now I'm completely off subject and probably should create a new thread...

[Tra]

On 2007-04-25 01:01, Itsuki-chan wrote:

I cannot wait, tra, for sega to make a mission or 2 featuring high tech resistant enemies that move fast and hit hard, ending the fT reign.
Actually, you know, most of the AoI missions feature enemies with hard hitting long and mid range attacks. It actually made forces and PTs relative liabilities. They still could deal some good damage, they just couldn't do it all taht effectively without dying.




Huh? What does that have to do with PT?

And although I'd be fine with it, but how would that make fT a liability? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Itsuki]

On 2007-04-25 01:27, Tra wrote:
Huh? What does that have to do with PT?

And although I'd be fine with it, but how would that make fT a liability? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


PT tend to be paper. I mean, they have hp, but they also have crap for defence and evasion. Also, all of their weapon selection is heavy, slow weaponry. Unless they switch to handgun&saber (bread&butter as I call it), which isn't something you'd normally see them do.

But it makes fT a liability because fT aren't in motion as much as other classes. Even bows are on the relative slow side. So they tend to be left open to fast moving ranged attacks. Think of it similar to fighting grina beat. Or something that shoots at you. fT don't have a whole lot of room to dodge and tend to be left open for ranged attacks. Theres just not a whole lot of them in the game right now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-25 01:45 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-04-25 01:43, Itsuki-chan wrote:

On 2007-04-25 01:27, Tra wrote:
Huh? What does that have to do with PT?

And although I'd be fine with it, but how would that make fT a liability? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


PT tend to be paper. I mean, they have hp, but they also have crap for defence and evasion. Also, all of their weapon selection is heavy, slow weaponry. Unless they switch to handgun&saber (bread&butter as I call it), which isn't something you'd normally see them do.

But it makes fT a liability because fT aren't in motion as much as other classes. Even bows are on the relative slow side. So they tend to be left open to fast moving ranged attacks. Think of it similar to fighting grina beat. Or something that shoots at you. fT don't have a whole lot of room to dodge and tend to be left open for ranged attacks. Theres just not a whole lot of them in the game right now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-04-25 01:45 ]</font>



mmm... grinna betes are easy? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, IMO Grinna Betes are BY FAR the weakest of the robot enemies.

[SolomonGrundy]

actaully they are pretty annoying to solo as a guntecher.

I imagine a ForteGunner would use a grenada lanucher on them, it perhaps a High% spear. All GTs can do is infect with bow.

:-/

Back on Topic: I love the ability to switch classes. I'm also a Figunner, probably switching to ArcoFighter for the improved DFP, and I guess EVP (that will take some getting use too). Oh wait, can AF use traps?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, they're very fun for us Hunters to fight because unlike most other robots, they're multi-targeted, so I can just PA them. Oh, and I just read, who am I doing personal attacks to? Correct me if I'm wrong but you said "Shir", I'm the only one I know of who's name starts that way. ._.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-25 10:26, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, they're very fun for us Hunters to fight because unlike most other robots, they're multi-targeted, so I can just PA them. Oh, and I just read, who am I doing personal attacks to? Correct me if I'm wrong but you said "Shir", I'm the only one I know of who's name starts that way. ._.




Sorry, I meant Shimarisu, I often abbreviate her to Shir, instead of Shim. I don't know why, buy Shim seams more masculine. Weird, right?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, lol, np. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[biggabertha]

I log on, help my newbie friends level, cyber, log off.

Man, I thought I was the only one who did this....

On-Topic: With a Lv. 50 Shifta and Lv. 50 Zodial, won't there just be insane accuracy and insane damage on a soloing Acrotecher? Even if the PAs are stuck at Lv. 20, that makes single handed weapons just dangerously powerful? Doesn't a dagger have a PA that hits something like eight times? Wouldn't this make Casts even better than humans if this was the playstyle of an Acrotecher? I really hope not.. Casts just reigning supreme over all my human buddies WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY EARS!!!

But I guess that an Acrotecher can do that solo, a Wartecher probably comes about equal doing it with a Lv. 20 Shifta, Lv. 20 Zodial, Lv. 30 Dus Daggas/Twin Claw PA and hit about nine times for about MORE damage.

¬.¬ There'd better be some race bonus to this class for humans and newmans...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2007-04-25 15:27 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2007-04-25 15:28 ]</font>

[-Asheth-]

Man, I thought I was the only one who did this....

On-Topic: With a Lv. 50 Shifta and Lv. 50 Zodial, won't there just be insane accuracy and insane damage on a soloing Acrotecher? Even if the PAs are stuck at Lv. 20, that makes single handed weapons just dangerously powerful? Doesn't a dagger have a PA that hits something like eight times? Wouldn't this make Casts even better than humans if this was the playstyle of an Acrotecher? I really hope not.. Casts just reigning supreme over all my human buddies WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY EARS!!!

But I guess that an Acrotecher can do that solo, a Wartecher probably comes about equal doing it with a Lv. 20 Shifta, Lv. 20 Zodial, Lv. 30 Dus Daggas/Twin Claw PA and hit about nine times for about MORE damage.

¬.¬ There'd better be some race bonus to this class for humans and newmans...


Umm there is a stat called atp. Seems ppl forget this all the time and only think about lvl 20 skills. Does anyone pay attention to stats???????? If your atp as a cast is 30 points higher (this is example dont know exact number but cast atp is higher than humans we all know this) and you become a acrotecher in a class were the atp is weak, weaker than say a WT you are not gonna pwn because the class is not designed for that being a cast or beast acrotecher is not gonna make a great acrotecher Your TP will suck compared to a human or newman acrotecher and the humans melee will only be slightly less than yours (dont know if humans get bonus for this hybrid class)

So my atp will be a few points less than yours but still respectful(if that is possible) for a acrotecher and my tp will beat you out by more than your atp will beat mine. I know buffs dont go by tp stats but level. So you are soloing and your doing 140 against a melee resistant monster and im doing 130 or 128 for that matter and bust out tech to crush it i will do more than you by a substantial amount. That is why a cast wouldnt pwn at acrotecher or a beast for that matter because in all honesty the acrotecher is not meant for melee I would think that if you are soloing with your acrotecher and using melee's more than techs that your will be taking a long time with that mission longer than you need to and will probably be spamming the resta alot to heal yourself.

Acrotecher's melee is like a guntecher in current psu's standards being able to cast techniques. Take a cast guntecher in a party and throw nothing but diga and foie and other techniques and see how long it is before the boot drops. Or ppl spam the lobby about how gimp you are. Unless your in a party with friends that dont care.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-25 15:45 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-04-25 15:27, biggabertha wrote:

I log on, help my newbie friends level, cyber, log off.

Man, I thought I was the only one who did this....

On-Topic: With a Lv. 50 Shifta and Lv. 50 Zodial, won't there just be insane accuracy and insane damage on a soloing Acrotecher? Even if the PAs are stuck at Lv. 20, that makes single handed weapons just dangerously powerful? Doesn't a dagger have a PA that hits something like eight times? Wouldn't this make Casts even better than humans if this was the playstyle of an Acrotecher? I really hope not.. Casts just reigning supreme over all my human buddies WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY EARS!!!

But I guess that an Acrotecher can do that solo, a Wartecher probably comes about equal doing it with a Lv. 20 Shifta, Lv. 20 Zodial, Lv. 30 Dus Daggas/Twin Claw PA and hit about nine times for about MORE damage.

¬.¬ There'd better be some race bonus to this class for humans and newmans...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2007-04-25 15:27 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2007-04-25 15:28 ]</font>


I did a calculation earlier showing that in most team situations, a Newman female using Buten Shuren-zan at level 20 will outdamage her level 30 techniques.

You can look at it for yourself here (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=140122&forum=22&start=90&105#100).

Yeah, in standard party situations Cast and Beasts do end up owning this class, but Newman and Human have a clear lead soloing and in areas with both melee and ranged resistance.

[SolomonGrundy]

I did a calculation earlier showing that in most team situations, a Newman female using Buten Shuren-zan at level 20 will outdamage her level 30 techniques.

there are not that many situations where there are only 3 enemies. I like the dagger PA, I also like being able to gifoie huge groups of lapucha, and jisharga. I like being able to gidiga robots en mase, then diga the outliers. I like being able to jellen kamatoze, and then foie him.

I also like equiping a spear and handing aghana his head.

WarTecher...you got options.

[Pillan]

On 2007-04-25 17:47, SolomonGrundy wrote:
there are not that many situations where there are only 3 enemies. I like the dagger PA, I also like being able to gifoie huge groups of lapucha, and jisharga. I like being able to gidiga robots en mase, then diga the outliers. I like being able to jellen kamatoze, and then foie him.

I also like equiping a spear and handing aghana his head.

WarTecher...you got options.



In parties of 4 or more people, I can never find an opportunity where I have more than 4 targets in my range for anything. It’s usually 2-3 targets and occasionally 1 or 4. However, soloing everything is obviously targeting me, so it would be nice to take advantage of those 6 target spells, which is why I say go Human or Newman if that’s how you primarily play.

I would agree that WT is more versatile than AT, making it more ideal for some people, but its lack of anything special really kills it for me. More weapons choices, more HP, ATP, and DFP, close enough TP, less EVP (making it more ideal for melee), etc. I’ll easily give all that up for 41+ buffs and debuffs.

And I noticed I messed up on that damage calculation. Buten Shuren-zan is 20 hits, not 18, so add whatever to that ammount.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-25 20:45 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

you won't hit 2 targets with all those hits. Ice has a low damage modifier. try gifoie, and a non fire, non ice creature, then add in the burn. then realize that spells never miss.

Buten has it place - oh does it have it's place, but certain spells, due to thier high damage mods, and ability to inflict DoTs, put weapons to shame

Don't get me wrong, I think AT has a very valuable place in a party, moreso than a Wartecher, come the expansion. I am jsut not willing to say melee > techs without an analysis that includes things like hitting for zero, or how much time you will spend casting resta, because your EVP let you down.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Pillan]

On 2007-04-25 21:51, SolomonGrundy wrote:
you won't hit 2 targets with all those hits. Ice has a low damage modifier. try gifoie, and a non fire, non ice creature, then add in the burn. then realize that spells never miss.


I usually don’t have a problem getting 2 targets in that range. But even if I didn’t, the first 4 hits take about as long as a single Diga cast, so I’d be doing about the same damage.


On 2007-04-25 21:51, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Buten has it place - oh does it have it's place, but certain spells, due to thier high damage mods, and ability to inflict DoTs, put weapons to shame

Don't get me wrong, I think AT has a very valuable place in a party, moreso than a Wartecher, come the expansion. I am jsut not willing to say melee > techs without an analysis that includes things like hitting for zero, or how much time you will spend casting resta, because your EVP let you down.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


I wouldn’t trust a tech to land an SE like a gun just due to the difference in firing rate. But, yes, if you burned everything, you’d clearly win. (That said, I often wonder why Rangers prefer opposite element over burn spam. On most weapons you can burn so often that fire bullets would win even on a fire enemy.)

Don’t forget AT has a 140% ATA mod at level 40 plus melee weapons add a ridiculous amount of ATA and the PA already has 80% at level 20. If I miss often with that, I’m fighting a pre-nerf Mizura.

And I’m hoping you’ll spend a lot of time casting Resta for the team regardless… Level 50 support kinda forces the party to expect you to take on the healer role.

Of course that is a slightly grey area, but prior to that calculation it was considered a “melee will clearly suck compared to the techs because of the higher TP and lower skill cap.” At least it made clear point that a Beast or Cast who melees as that class won’t do significantly less than a Newman or Human spamming techniques (and could be doing more), which is the main thing I wanted.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

What if you're fighting a single monster? Or one thats just single target? I think in that case, it would be best to do Diga or Foie or something like that. And I think that Newman resta could be the most wanted as an Acrotecher once we hit lv 200 and Beast Fortefighters would have like Chuck Norris HP. I'm not sure on how much a Beast or CAST would do for Resta at higher lvs, but I'm sure a Newman would do much better, maybe better than a Human Fortetecher(actually, I heard that Newman AT TP > Human fT TP). I like Buten Shuren Zan mainly for bosses and big multi targeted monsters, especially those who are resistent to bullets and spells, although I might do some of that while my Madoog's PP charges up. I have a feeling that Acrotecher is just like a Guntecher, but instead of being a Ranger that casts magic, its a Force that can do some gunning and some melee. Please note, I said some.

[Pillan]

As I mentioned earlier, 1 Diga ball takes about as long to fire as the first move of Buten Shuren-zan (if you disagree, you can make a more accurate timing approximation). The first move is 4 buffed hits but even if it was doing around 300 each, it would still be around the 1200 or so of Diga.

Also Newman AT will do significantly less damage than Human fT simply because of the extra 10 levels of spell power. Depending on the technique, those 10 levels add as much as 30% damage. They may have higher base TP, but the exclusive use of rods and higher technique levels destroy that. (You probably still beat Cast or Beast fT though.)

I’ll still argue that the area AT focuses on for damage is still extremely debatable. Unlike the other partial classes, it doesn’t have a clear maximum damage potential in 1 field (GT clearly uses guns with 40 bullets, FG and AF clearly use blades with 40 skills, PT clearly uses traps, etc.). Go either way and do whatever you want. Honestly, I say both are good decisions and both are useful in general. Both also become more useful in special situations (skills for subbosses and bosses, techs for enemies that are a pain to melee, etc.).

And Resta can be cast multiple times. I wouldn’t consider that a real issue. Even currently as a Caseal WT, I heal enough. That’s why I say there’s no way you can argue it will be an issue with level 50 Resta and 130% TP.

[SolomonGrundy]

Regarding Diga vs. Buten timing. it not 1:1, defintely not with an Me, or Har Quick.

I would say both AT, and WT have a lot of versatility, AT clearly is better with ranged weapons (level 30 vs level 20, superior ATA).

I expect there will be more tech damage ATs because there are so few tech resistant enemies (can you think of any besides gohmons?)

[Tra]

On 2007-04-26 15:27, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Regarding Diga vs. Buten timing. it not 1:1, defintely not with an Me, or Har Quick.

I would say both AT, and WT have a lot of versatility, AT clearly is better with ranged weapons (level 30 vs level 20, superior ATA).

I expect there will be more tech damage ATs because there are so few tech resistant enemies (can you think of any besides gohmons?)



jarba
kog nadd
ageeta
gaozoran
Zoalgoug
bul buuma
Temple guards
Seed Vitace

[Soukosa]

This thread as become something of quite the amusment. People who have one track minds with combat trying to make use out of a class that doesn't work that way. As I said before, aTs have a strange combat style, one of which few people will likely be able to enjoy at full potential since most like sticking with one type of combat and not using two at once.

[Sharkyland]

I'm pretty sure everyone will give it a try with their own respected characters, but if you're into stats you should go for it with the best class. As for me, I have two characters that might be interested in acrotecher. My newman or beast.

I kinda do like my beast fortetecher right now and I do plan on upgrading her to acrotecher just to see how she deals with it... and maybe my newman.

[SolomonGrundy]

jarba
kog nadd
ageeta
gaozoran
Zoalgoug
bul buuma
Temple guards
Seed Vitace


ageeta does not matter, HP is so low they die quickly to gifoie.

I would say jarba/kognad/goazoran does not matter either, but I appreciate you putting together the list, and do not want to seem smug

[Pillan]

Just to continue with that argument, how many enemies take half melee and lack enough targets to make up for the lost damage? The only true anti-melee enemy I can name is Jarba.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-27 13:56, Pillan wrote:
Just to continue with that argument, how many enemies take half melee and lack enough targets to make up for the lost damage? The only true anti-melee enemy I can name is Jarba.



tengogh, jusugun. All robots except grinnig beta. All flying enemies.

[Alisha]

tengogh and jusnagun arent not anti melee they are pathetically easy to control with skill arts stop crying about them already and learn to do something besides just damage.

[Tsavo]

On 2007-04-27 21:28, Alisha wrote:
tengogh and jusnagun arent not anti melee they are pathetically easy to control with skill arts stop crying about them already and learn to do something besides just damage.


While they may be controlled easily enough the question was which enemies are melee resistant. No need to be all peeved and such.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-04-27 21:28, Alisha wrote:
tengogh and jusnagun arent not anti melee they are pathetically easy to control with skill arts stop crying about them already and learn to do something besides just damage.



no. creatures attack until they are killed. Go play a fortefighter solo, and go through demons above. See you in a month.

In addtion, take note regarding the post above mine. A question was asked, I answered.

[Tra]

On 2007-04-27 15:35, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-04-27 13:56, Pillan wrote:
Just to continue with that argument, how many enemies take half melee and lack enough targets to make up for the lost damage? The only true anti-melee enemy I can name is Jarba.



tengogh, jusugun. All robots except grinnig beta. All flying enemies.



see I dunno why you said jarba, kog nadds and gaozorans are exceptions.

Kog Nadds are resistant to both bullets and techs, pretty much the only way you cana damage him is just using burn or virus. See, you might think that's alright, but you see, they have 3 targets, hunters destroy the hell out of them.

gaozorans, not resistant to melee and bullets, but only techs. this was after the recent monster stat overhaul

jarbas, ranger owns them that much harder http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif


so tengohs make fF not as good for part of a single mission... you know they can still keep up with the damage when they are hitting 2-3 tengohs at once? There's way around tengohs as melee, just like that. Jusnaguns in hive don't come in large numbers, sometimes not at all.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-04-28 16:14 ]</font>

[PJ]

On 2007-04-27 21:28, Alisha wrote:
tengogh and jusnagun arent not anti melee they are pathetically easy to control with skill arts stop crying about them already and learn to do something besides just damage.



Online yet?

[Alisha]

On 2007-04-28 11:27, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-04-27 21:28, Alisha wrote:
tengogh and jusnagun arent not anti melee they are pathetically easy to control with skill arts stop crying about them already and learn to do something besides just damage.



no. creatures attack until they are killed. Go play a fortefighter solo, and go through demons above. See you in a month.

In addtion, take note regarding the post above mine. A question was asked, I answered.



constantly sit tengoghs down on thier ass and they wont be attacking shit. thats what i mean by controlling them.

[zanotam]

OMG! MY F HUMAN WT WILL HAVE A USE!!! WOOT!! WOOT!!!
ALSO: ONLY LEVEL 50 SKILL!!! WOOT!!! WOOT!!! WOOT!!!!!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zanotam on 2007-04-30 09:17 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-04-28 21:01, Alisha wrote:

constantly sit tengoghs down on thier ass and they wont be attacking shit. thats what i mean by controlling them.

Sure, they won't be attacking shit, but your melee will be doing pathetically weak damage and it will take you a month of Sundays to clear the mission.

[TorterraEndor]

Alisha doesn't even play online, don't take her seriously plz.

But yeah, HUs can't handle them flying bitches for shit.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-30 13:42 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I did S rank agata relics with level 10 dark bullets for the tengoghs.

thank god I only had to kill 2
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Ravennittes]

back to AT.... I looked at the stat modifyer for evasion, and is that BIGGER THAN MINE?! (F newman Fortetecher) I mean I know mine's insane as is (will be close to 600 base when I hit 80). I've gotta know how AT's evasion compares.

[Pillan]

On 2007-04-30 18:25, Ravennittes wrote:
back to AT.... I looked at the stat modifyer for evasion, and is that BIGGER THAN MINE?! (F newman Fortetecher) I mean I know mine's insane as is (will be close to 600 base when I hit 80). I've gotta know how AT's evasion compares.



Looking at the AoI Q&A thread, AT has 210% EVP at level 10, or 10% more than fT. So just multiply your fT 10 EVP by 1.05 and it should give you a rough estimate (Newmans will have a bit less and humans will have a bit more thanks to ST's horrible class bonus system).

[Tsavo]

Newman AT's don't get a class bonus? They are techers after all.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I hope they get bonuses for Acrotecher in the final version.

[RedCoKid]

On 2007-04-20 02:03, Sounomi wrote:
...and it is a rather common practice with many support oriented fTs to use a card alongside a wand with Resta and Reverser. The same would apply here.

...

A rank Wand - This thing to go along side the card and handgun and what you slap Resta, Reverser, and the debuffs on. As well as to help make a virtual rod of sorts for complete buffs. Offensive techs go to the Madoog to be used along side combat and I think the way they made wands A rank helps to support that notion.

...

Now, does that answer things?



Thanks, that helps a lot. I currently play as a support fT and will switch to AT this fall with cards, wands, and madoogs. How would you organize a palatte with just those weapons? By my count, 12 spots on wands -4 buffs -2 resta/reverser -2 rentis/dizas = 4 open. I'd like to have more than 1 wand of resta/reverser (so I wouldn't have to cycle halfway to heal) and maybe put giresta in there if it becomes more useful in the expansion than now. However, that would leave open only 1-2 spots for debuffs (not that I use them much, but they could be useful for tagging). I'm also concerned about using madoogs for technics (lower PP than wands, right?) because I tend to go through PP so fast that I've been using cometaracs to compensate. :

Here's an example:

left right
tech shield
card heal
tech buff
tech buff
card heal
tech debuff

Suggestions?

I'd also like to know which PA's are best for status effects for the whip.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RedCoKid on 2007-05-02 07:10 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Me, personally, for my female newman, Im wondering if this makes a good pallette?
buff - buff
resta + reverser, dizas + rentis
whip + attack spell
saber + attack spell
dagger + attack spell and/or resta
debuff + card

[Paramedic]

I'm going to go like this:

Shifta/Deband, Zodial/Retier. (Buff wave-1)
Dizas/Rentis, Resta/Giresta. (Buff wave-2/Big-healing)
Resta/Reverser, Whip. (Healing and some AoE)
Card, Dagger. (Melee when I get the chance, and SE proccing when necessary)
Debuff Madoog, Whip. (Debuff to tag/support and Whip for some AoE - Swap debuffs when necessary. Usually only need to have one or two up, in my experience)
Casting-'doog, Casting-Wand. (Straight up tech-damage for when necessary)

Notes: I don't like handguns. I don't like twin-daggers. Two-handed weapons don't suit me at all for that matter. I don't like to offensive-tech, but I'll do it when necessary. Most of my time with this setup will be on the Healing-'doog/Whip or Debuff-'doog/Whip. Depends on the party.

I feel like I'm wasting the 20% speed on twin-daggers, but I don't like them at all. They're just not my choice when partying, maybe when soloing. But that's about it. Always like to be able to do multiple things at a time. (Especially healing) Pre-emptive > Reactive.

[ShinMaruku]

I'm gonna be all about-
-dual daggers
-buff card
-resta gat
-bondage weapon gi-barta/dambarta
-saber gifoi/rafoi
-tactcal nuke (wand,mandoog)
Mandoog sounds funny.

[Schubalts]

On 2007-04-30 18:25, Ravennittes wrote:
back to AT.... I looked at the stat modifyer for evasion, and is that BIGGER THAN MINE?! (F newman Fortetecher) I mean I know mine's insane as is (will be close to 600 base when I hit 80). I've gotta know how AT's evasion compares.



And Acrofighter has more than both of them!

[-Shimarisu-]

My god this topic is still going?

I didn't really intend for this to be the official AT topic, just a heads up for everyone asking me whether AT would work on a beast.

Why I was being asked I'm not sure, guess because I am the hybrid advocate around here.

[Tra]

On 2007-05-05 17:10, -Shimarisu- wrote:
My god this topic is still going?

I didn't really intend for this to be the official AT topic, just a heads up for everyone asking me whether AT would work on a beast.

Why I was being asked I'm not sure, guess because I am the hybrid advocate around here.



somebody tied a rat to the rails of this topic some 10 pages ago

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Hey Shim, how bout if I just start the official Acrotecher thread? Like I did with the Acrofighter thread?

[ShinMaruku]

On 2007-05-05 17:52, Shiroryuu wrote:
Hey Shim, how bout if I just start the official Acrotecher thread? Like I did with the Acrofighter thread?


Do that becvause I'm lazy. XD