Lets talk Chousei-sou(ult bow PA)

[-_Tao_-]

I cant find the hard numbers on this PA. Nor can I find the past threads about this PA. I wanted to know if there is any practicle aplication for this PA. Right now I have it to 11(with minimal effort) and its Att 146% and ACC: 82% . I know some of the focus has been damage dealing, particuarly with going off element. But is that Acc is currently my highest Acc wep at lvl 11. I have herd its useful for Beast wartechers also. I am tempted to go try it on some bees. Some things may only have a limited aplication like killer shot for example. What are your thoughts and can you please add in some hard facts.

-Tao-

[Pillan]

Well, here are some “hard facts” that I see so far:

FACT: I did not realize Chousei-sou had 2% ATA growth at levels 1-20 until you just posted your current ATA value (I never bothered to level it myself). However, bows themselves already have the highest ATA of any gun and their PA ATA reduction isn’t very high, so it becomes useless aside from Beast WT and fT.

FACT: Chousei-sou will always do significantly less damage than an opposite element bow PA because it only has 10% more ATP than the other arts (which all get a 30% elemental attack bonus PLUS an additional bonus based on the enemy’s elemental defense percentage). To add insult to injury, it has no effect, making it a huge waste of one of the only 2 effect 4 guns.

FACT: Most people don’t realize it, but even though bows do the highest damage of any gun, they do the lowest damage per time aside from special cases, like four-legged robots and Zamvapas (high enemy DFP or low character ATP). They’re also not that great at effect spam in comparison to rifles either. Bows only shine when your character’s ATP is VERY low (i.e., as an fT or Newman GT/PT). Without the element, you’re just making yourself deal even less.

FACT: There were some rumors going around about Chousei-sou having a slower firing rate. That is not true. There are also rumors about it having longer range. I haven’t tested that myself, so I wouldn’t know. (However, most of the ult bullets have significantly shorter range. I honestly doubt it.)

Now for my opinions:

OPINION: It’s a great PA if you don’t intend to get the full set of bows. Just get that one if you want to save 5 PA slots.

OPINION: No one in PSU really cares about how much or little damage you deal as long as you’re making some contribution to the team. Use whatever PA you want as long as you can have fun with it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-23 09:47 ]</font>

[-_Tao_-]

In your facts you listed nothing about the ACC... that is the stat that I am interested in at this point. Its ACC is higher than any ranged weapon I have right now. Now I know ACC is not a factor when it gets to certain points, but lets say in special circumstances like bugs/bees for instance were they have a insanely high evp. Does the ACC play a factor in circumstances like that?

[Midicronica]

He basically summed it up there. It's a rather pointless bullet to have. The att% & acc% modifier doesn't make much of a differece compared to other elemental bullets. The ele% modifier at 21+(30%) and the potential SEs that can be applied outweighs it completely. I will admit though, it was pretty good to use on the Mizura before they had their EVA and whatever else lowered by Sega. Couple chousei-sou with a Hanmeteric the 8* Kubara bow (340ATA) and you'd be hitting bugs almost everytime with the correct buffs and debuffs. But, again, the damage being dealt wasn't anything amazing nor was there any SE being applied. I quickly switched to Insei-sou (Infect).

I wonder though..wouldn't this bullet be really good against De Ragnus? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif I never tested it myself.

[Pillan]

Just to clear that up, the highest ATA value of any non-ult bullet PA is 87% (Machine Guns). Rifles, handguns, and twin handguns tie for second place at 75%. Bows are normally 70%.

[AC9breaker]

On 2007-04-23 09:46, Pillan wrote:


FACT: There were some rumors going around about Chousei-sou having a slower firing rate. That is not true.




Are we talking about the same Chousei-Sou here? My Chousei-sou fires twice as slow as a regular Bullet. Its level 15 as well. Its becuase of this slow firing rate that I feel so adamant about Chousei-sou being the absolute worst PA of all PAs that are currently obtainable.

[VPLoki]

On 2007-04-23 10:47, AC9breaker wrote:

On 2007-04-23 09:46, Pillan wrote:


FACT: There were some rumors going around about Chousei-sou having a slower firing rate. That is not true.




Are we talking about the same Chousei-Sou here? My Chousei-sou fires twice as slow as a regular Bullet. Its level 15 as well. Its becuase of this slow firing rate that I feel so adamant about Chousei-sou being the absolute worst PA of all PAs that are currently obtainable.



Soooooo true. It may be an exageration to say twice as slow, but not twice as slow a a rifle shot. Mine is on 19 (god knows why) and it sucks hard. Any bow with equal lvl bow bullets will do more dps and cause SE. As for the range I think it is longer, but I have not tested it.

So anyway, get your FACT:'s straight

[-_Tao_-]

After some testing

FACT: it does fire slower than normal bow PA's

FACT: it does have a longer range than normal bow PA's

I went and tested it on some bees in Labs S2. It does hit more often for less as suspected. It does however have a significantly lower dam ratio. Put that with the slow firing rate and its not useful in that scenerio.

I also tested it on DeRagon. It was hitting for 150-200 less than Ice30 arrows. I doubt it could make up for that in 19 levels. I might have to max it just to do the 30/30 analasis

[shewby]

100% fact that is does shoot slower.

[Pillan]

Oh no. It’s the end of the world. I was wrong about one point.

But, more seriously, the speed difference obviously wasn’t enough for me to notice. Probably around the same difference as AF and AT’s melee abilities compared to the other classes (which were only slightly noticeable after they slowed down on a video I saw). You can take it into consideration as well, but the basic stance remains that this PA sucks aside from the special cases I named earlier.

[VPLoki]

On 2007-04-23 23:22, Pillan wrote:
Oh no. It’s the end of the world. I was wrong about one point.

But, more seriously, the speed difference obviously wasn’t enough for me to notice. Probably around the same difference as AF and AT’s melee abilities compared to the other classes (which were only slightly noticeable after they slowed down on a video I saw). You can take it into consideration as well, but the basic stance remains that this PA sucks aside from the special cases I named earlier.



No seriously its a huge difference, it is nearly twice as slow. The dps diffence is huge because of this. On a elemental nuetral enemy you will still do more dmg and use less pp with a (insert elemenatal bow PA name here) than with the ultimate PA. The only advantages it really has is higher ATA (moot) and longer range (somewhat usefull). But the only real use i found for this is on Fakis you can stand at the very back and hit him in the face, instead of 1 foot forward.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-04-23 09:46, Pillan wrote:
Bows only shine when your character’s ATP is VERY low (i.e., as an fT or Newman GT/PT).

So axes are only good on newman fFs? That's what it sounds like to me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif



same difference as AF and AT’s melee abilities compared to the other classes (which were only slightly noticeable after they slowed down on a video I saw).

There is quite a difference. If you actually played either class, you'd know this.


FACT: Pillan often has no idea what he's talking about but acts like he does. This is the second topic to prove this.

[Fulgore]

Thank you for the info people, you have saved me from wasting my time on getting this ultimate art for the bow, and this forum should know, I was adamet (all for it) about getting all the card/bow bullets but dam, I might as well just shoot a regular green bullet http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif if I so choose to pick a color instead of the sane reason which would be to use the opposite element bullet.....anyways, thank you for saving me from wasted pa frags and wasted time leveling and so on.... That leaves me with room for a Photon Art http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I think I'll either keep my Reverser afterall or hold firm in getting Regrants....just because it's the only Attack PA that will be light based..and I Sooooo love the HIVE

[imfanboy]

And the Card is almost as useless - I mean, of the classes that can USE cards, why would you need an HP drain? Let's see... fortetecher, guntecher, wartecher... nope, nope, nope, none of those need any sort of HP drain at all. FAIL.

What would make more sense is having the CROSSBOW ult PA with HP Drain, and the Card with Berserk - 2 out of 3 Crossbow-using classes might find some sort of close-range HP drain to come in handy, Figunner and Fortegunner. But oh no, they failed kinda hard on that one....

Oh well, can't win them all.

[Pillan]

On 2007-04-24 02:58, Sounomi wrote:

On 2007-04-23 09:46, Pillan wrote:
Bows only shine when your character’s ATP is VERY low (i.e., as an fT or Newman GT/PT).

So axes are only good on newman fFs? That's what it sounds like to me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


Yes. That’s obviously true since Axes and Bows are the same weapon. Not to mention Bows also uses skills which accelerate their attacks and allow them to hit multiple targets.

But, yes, if you consider the skill-less combo of an axe, it clearly DOES suck. Once you throw the skill into the mix, the additional targets, power, and range help it compete. However, due to the speed difference and lack of multiple targets, Dus Robado can easily outdamage Anga Redda.

Oh, and, by the way, if I’ve made two mistakes thus far, why have you only made a real comment on this one? It seems like you’d go for pointing out them both to the public.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-24 08:58 ]</font>

[shewby]

On 2007-04-23 23:22, Pillan wrote:
Oh no. It’s the end of the world. I was wrong about one point.

But, more seriously, the speed difference obviously wasn’t enough for me to notice. Probably around the same difference as AF and AT’s melee abilities compared to the other classes (which were only slightly noticeable after they slowed down on a video I saw). You can take it into consideration as well, but the basic stance remains that this PA sucks aside from the special cases I named earlier.

we are just pointing it out because you were acting like you knew everything. someone who didnt know any better might believe you and go buy the PA and be dissapointed. sorry if your feelings got hurt.

[biggabertha]

But the comparison sounded like a high attack power weapon works best on the weakest character who can use it. If you compare this logic with axes, the axe should work better for Newmans than it does for Beasts.

Also, I think the Axe is the only weapon that causes knockdown on one of it's hits in the normal combo. Even if it is slow, it isn't something to ignore since right after the third hit, you can use Anga Dugrega straight away without waiting for the wind down whereas after a thr third hit of a Spear normal combo, you can't launch yourself in Dus Robado or Dus Daggas and cover as much ground as Anga Dugrega.

Dus Robado can only outdamage Anga Redda if there are three targets around you, you use a relatively high attack spear, you have the Photon Art at Lv. 30, your weapon is of a relatively high opposite elemental percentage and you hit with all the hits in the... Six or so seconds it takes to use the full combo of Dus Robado. Doesn't the full combo of Anga Redda come out in five or less seconds meaning for long, drawn out fights, Anga Redda would make mince meat out of most mini-bosses and bosses in comparison to Dus Robado?

Back on track: I'd say the ultimate Bow PA would be best used on someone who needs only one Bow PA and is in need of damage rather than the status effect. There's only really one class that needs this and it's the Wartecher or Force since the first ten levels are a little better than any of the elemental counterparts in most situations if you use it purely for damage. It's not so useful for the other three classes (Protranser, Guntecher and Fortetecher) because they can get Lv. 30 bullets which will most likely deal more damage in a set amount of time. However, when it comes to an enemy like a Pofuilly slime that can take only one hit before it's invincible, I'd say Chousei-Sou is rather redundant for the time being. (Which is why I'm crying my eyes out because I could have gotten Mayalee Prism or Boma FREEZE, PUNK instead!)

[Pillan]

On 2007-04-24 10:22, shewby wrote:
we are just pointing it out because you were acting like you knew everything. someone who didnt know any better might believe you and go buy the PA and be dissapointed. sorry if your feelings got hurt.


I know and I appreciate the correction. However, it was the additional comments made in malice rather than as an attempt in correction that made me slightly annoyed. The overall sentiment about this PA is that it sucks. Slightly slower speed only makes it suck more, so I don’t see what we’re arguing about since we all agree that it sucks.


On 2007-04-24 10:25, biggabertha wrote:
But the comparison sounded like a high attack power weapon works best on the weakest character who can use it. If you compare this logic with axes, the axe should work better for Newmans than it does for Beasts.

Also, I think the Axe is the only weapon that causes knockdown on one of it's hits in the normal combo. Even if it is slow, it isn't something to ignore since right after the third hit, you can use Anga Dugrega straight away without waiting for the wind down whereas after a thr third hit of a Spear normal combo, you can't launch yourself in Dus Robado or Dus Daggas and cover as much ground as Anga Dugrega.

Dus Robado can only outdamage Anga Redda if there are three targets around you, you use a relatively high attack spear, you have the Photon Art at Lv. 30, your weapon is of a relatively high opposite elemental percentage and you hit with all the hits in the... Six or so seconds it takes to use the full combo of Dus Robado. Doesn't the full combo of Anga Redda come out in five or less seconds meaning for long, drawn out fights, Anga Redda would make mince meat out of most mini-bosses and bosses in comparison to Dus Robado?


This will be my last comment in this topic on the subject of axes.

Yes, of course, if there are 2 targets within range, Axes win period, but I’ve never had any trouble getting three targets within Dus Robado range, which is what makes it such an overpowered PA. However, the fact that you’re doing slightly less damage to 3 targets offsets the damage to 2 targets with an axe at the same rank, element, etc. I’ll go ahead and do the full calculation to prove my case. We’ll consider a level 80 female Newman fortefighter with a 9 star axe and spear (the lowest ATP so that all other cases will also be true). (Stats taken from PSUpedia).

The Newman female would have 624 base ATP. The spear adds 676 ATP, and the axe adds 1244. So she would have 1300 with the spear and 1868 with the axe. Adding in Redda and Dus Robado at level 30, it becomes 2015 and 2802 ATP or 403 and 560 damage to a 0 DFP enemy.

Assuming there were 3 targets in Dus Robado range in both cases, Robado would do around 5445 damage and Redda would do 5200 on a 200 DFP enemy. The time difference would be significant if you were fighting a hildabear-type subboss or a boss, but everything else gets knocked away in either case, making it about the same. The difference becomes more vast with higher ATP classes since DFP becomes less of a factor and the extra 5% modifier in Robado brings the gap closer together.

So, yeah, obviously Redda is better in special cases, just like bows are a lot better than any other gun against a Zamvapas, but in the general crowd control situation that composes 90% of a hunter’s life on any stage, Robado wins.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-04-24 11:17 ]</font>

[Hrith]

Tornado Break > Dus Robado

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-04-24 11:50 ]</font>

[VPLoki]

back on subject, I do feel that it may be a good replacement for someone who does not want 6 bow PAs,I personally would recomend it to a WT cause they only carry one bow, and rarely use it. The ult would work nicely and be better than all the elemental ones at lv 10 where SE 2 isnt that helpful. If a WT wants to cause SE that is what techs are for. Even at lvl 20 techs a WT can get many lvl 3 SE. So i recomend it for WT, not GT, PT, or fT.

thats my 2 meseta

[DemonCloak]

I didn't think you could actually make calculations based on the modifiers, seeing that the dmg changes based on which hit in the combo you are on. Eg. renkai's first 3 hits are individually weaker than the 2 hits of the second spin. That tells me that there is another damage modifier in addition to the one listed under the description of the PA.

Feel free to ignore me and go on talking about bows, I just saw an opportunity to get some answers on this dmg calculation situation.