Honest critique

[Retehi]

Whatever happened to it? You cannot tell a single person anything they can do to improve themselves without them throwing a hissy fit, or having a gang of of their friends flock to their aid.

Take for example something like art. You tell someone they messed up something anatomy wise, or coloring, then they proceed to yell at you for questioning "their style". This is highly common in crappy Naruto/Inuyasha fanart circles.

Examples would be:

"Looks like you really outdid yourself here, the concept is great and rarely seen. But you really do need to work on your head structures, along with perspective. But I'd recommend studying some anatomy books by Burne Hogarth, or Andrew Loomis, instead of using anime as a beginning crutch. Do that, and I see you making some pretty cool pieces of work in the future."

Answer?

"omg see i drew this i was rly sleepy and this is my frst drawing in 3 weeks and its just fanart, plz dont be so mean ;(((((((("

Apparently the correct way to address people like this is to say:

"very kawaiiiiiiiii =^____^="

Has this country gone too far in babying people? I remember this sort of behavior started in the mid 90's or so, when every other stick figure you drew was considered a fine piece of art to your parents.

I'm all for a person doing whatever they want, but really, theres nothing wrong with improving yourself. And nothing wrong either with someone taking the time to give you advice.

[Tay]

You must hate the fan works section, deviantART, and furries as much as I do.

[Siertes]

Criticism sucks. I'm not very good at taking it. It's basically saying "I'm flawed" and I get enough of that in my own head.

Plus I hate absolutes. Saying that a certain look in a drawing is "wrong" or needs "improving" doesn't sit well with me. If you personally don't like that look, then feel free to say so, but make sure to stress that it is your own feelings on the style and not some rule of drawing that must be enforced.

Of course, I don't even know why I'm saying these things. I don't draw! Except for this... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/Siertes/Pes-Dharma.jpg)

I know it's not very good, but I was proud of myself when I drew it back in high school. Sure I used an existing picture as a reference (As opposed to tracing or freehand) but it felt good when finished. Having it critiqued steals away that nice feeling.

So yes, it basically comes down to saving people's feelings from getting hurt. I'm not afraid to admit that: I don't like feeling like ****. But even though I hate it, there is nothing wrong with giving someone advice on how you believe they could better their work. As long as you give it in a respectful manner, and they respond in kind, then all is good.

[EphekZ]

Finally a decent rant for once. A lot of the art I see in fanworks is utter crap. do I post that? No, because I know they'll bitch. What gets me though, is when they ask for critique but just say that to be "politically correct" or w/e the fuck is going on in their minds.



Having it critiqued steals away that nice feeling.



Not trying to use you as an example but it fits so well with my post http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif
If you asked for critique then you should prepare for the worst. Most people when they say "OMG KRITIKZ PWEEZ" just want someone to say "Zomg tat art is soo guud".

What also gets me is when someone does post something, even I, could draw in two seconds(I'm a shit artist) then people crowd around saying how good it is, just so some idiot can get their self-esteem boost of the day. If I was doing something horribly wrong and someone kept saying it was "grrrreeeaaat!" then would I ever improve? No, because you have no drive to. People telling you your faults makes you want to improve so next time you won't draw something my 3-year old sister could probably easily surpass.

My two cents.

[DurakkenX]

Siertes, sorry to break it to you but there are rules to art... Although, like english grammar, when you know what they are you are better equipped to know how and when to break them.

Many of the artists I know, many of which are professionals or art teachers, come to me for advice and critique because I am precise about every little detail and how it may be improved. I almost never give a critique that doesn't have a backing to it or that I can't explain.

As far as "It's my style!" That is a lame fall back that means "I don't know the basics". Whenever I give a critique I make a note of style choices and errors that may be because of style or because of bad structure as there are those and anyone that can't tell the difference between a genuine error and a possible style choice should be giving advice to begin with. A prime example would be FF9s characters who all have forearms that expand from their elbow to wrist.

Personally I stopped posting on art boards mainly because I got tired of all the bad critiques and the coddling of surface artists and the ignoring of intermediate and lower lvl artists who have potential or need guidance.

The main problem people have with critiques is that most people either point out the bad or make a general statement that isn't help at all. If I tell you "you suck" and not explain why then you have every right to be indignant and angry about that, but I also think that you should be just as angry if not more so if someone says "You rock" It's just as generalized and doesn't convey any useful information. Another thing that many people do is they tend to only point out the negative and almost never the positive and likewise many people read only the first sentence or just ignore much of what someone says so that many critiques that are in depth are useless.

[Siertes]

On 2007-04-25 22:12, DurakkenX wrote:

Siertes, sorry to break it to you but there are rules to art...



Meh. I'm guess I'm just not the type to care for such things. A pretty picture is a pretty picture.

[Blitzkommando]

People don't have the stomach to tell the truth. They're just as afraid of being unaccepted as the person who did the work being critiqued. This applies to all types of work, not just art.

I'll give an example in something that I pride my own work at, computer construction. Computers can be works of art if they are properly set up and should the person decide to paint the case in some way or to modify (or even build their own) case. When I see cases that people brag how well they did but didn't bother to clean the cabling and never dust the internals don't deserve praise outside of being able to fit the components together which is about as hard as tying one's shoes. So, I give advice as to how to lay out the cabling for better airflow, and to remind them to dust once in a while to keep up efficiency and lower temperatures.

If we didn't have constructive criticism we wouldn't even be where we are today because, like it or not, even experts at one time were novices learning the trade. Criticism is a way for more experienced people to hand off information to the next generation. This ideal of not insulting anyone in order for everyone to feel happy and carefree ruins the potential for talent.

[omegapirate2k]

It's all about the moe now.

[Sayara]

If you cannot take the critique you have no right to be calling yourself someone in the art field. If you do it for fun the shoot have fun doing whatever. If you wanna excell in art then I'll be damned if someone with only Animu artsy shit will become successful in an american art civilization.


Also: People using "MY STYLE" need to figure out that; once you got the anatomy/basics done then you go ahead and tweak and alterate. Like some artists draw elongated necks for every piece she does, but damn well you know she's good and got it downpact.

Though also lets remember that critiquing also doesn't have to be so much bad things to fix; you can simply suggest things at times to help the "good comment craving artist" take their negatives well.

Moreso: I won't really critique anyones stuff unless they look like they can improve from it IE something like this Don't post elsewhere lolz (http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n21/mimimaxwell/BanzaiMinits.jpg)
is just a lost cause. ;|

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tingle on 2007-04-26 05:43 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

tingle, that's the thing... that type of picture often show the most potential of a person and it's really easy to pick out things they should work on from there, especially if they have a genuine interest in improving. You not giving a critique or at least offering advice is dumb since that's the whole point of helping those type of people improve.

As far as your example, "some artists draw elongated necks for every piece", That is more often than not a fundamental structure error that they don't know how to correct than a style issue for most people. It comes from them not drawing the stick figure skeleton before they draw the figure. They then draw the body and are unable to connect the head correctly so the neck becomes elongated. This then influence the rest of their style to make them look better to try to hide the fact that they don't do the basics.

This is so common that most of the first classes in an art class state that this may be one of your problems and this is how correct it, more than just about any other basic. the sad thing is, is that this little structure issue takes less than a minute to correct when you do it correctly and that is nothing to the length of time that the artists spend on their art.

I'm not saying that everyone that draws the neck elongated does out of not knowing the basics, but most of them that do are doing it because they don't know how to correct it. It's a phase almost every artists goes through. I have a friend that does it and won't correct it despite it not being on purpose and it detracts from the overall ^.^

[Sayara]

I was refering to a major painter
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1e/Frida_Kahlo_%28self_portrait%29.jpg

And i say, if you have the skill to do the thing 100% anatomically correct, or close to it and mean it, then by all means go ahead and break the cold lifeless look.

[Nixia]

I've drawn a bit a few years ago, but only just started taking art as a course this semester because I want to improve (my symmetry sucks -.-;), and practice means nothing if you don't know what you're doing wrong. Even before I started taking art, I knew there were rules and that before you could go off and do your own thing, you need to have a good foundation of the basics.

I won't lie, when I don't have to do art for the course I draw anime, and it's a big part of the reason why I took art in the first place. But even still, I love having my work critiqued and appreciate when my teacher takes a good, hard look and tells me what I've done wrong or what to do a bit better. To me, it's better than blind compliments.

If my work needs to be torn apart, I'll take it gladly, if that's what it takes for me to get better.

[navci]

Rule of thumb. If you asked for comments, you don't get to complain when people give you comments, positive, or negative.

Also a rule of thumb. If you don't want to get negative comments, don't post on the internet.

One more thing you might also overlook.
It actually takes quite a bit of time to give a constructive critique. If someone really bother to give it some thought and write you a paragraph on what you are doing right and what you're doing wrong. Thank them.

Only time I guess you can get a bit pissed is if someone is just posting negative comments (not a critique!) cuz they are being an ass. Like. "OMG THIS SUCKS AND IS UGLY". Ya.

[Thalui89]

It depends how the criticism is displayed. For instance my Art teacher at school decided to tear to bits one of my final pieces for a project without consulting me on it. Rather she decided to go along the route of: "Its crap." *rip to pieces* Criticism must be given in ana ppropiate manner.

[Neggy]

Ok, everyone's going crazy with the art thing. I think he meant criticism in general.

Anyway, if you're seriously dedicated to something, and someone gives your constructive criticism, you're going to listen. I mean, if you're into weight training (like me!), and someone tells you your clean and press form is good, but needs some tweaking, and they tell you what you could do to better it, and they point you to reference material about the clean and press, you're gonna listen. Key word being 'constructive'. If someone said "your form sucks, your back is crooked and you're jerking the weight", that's not constructive. They're not even telling you what the hell is wrong, or how you can better your lift. If you really care about, and are dedicated something, you will listen to any and all constructive advice you get.

[SolomonGrundy]

holy unibrow on that guy! He neer heard of tweezers?

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-04-28 09:59, Neggy wrote:
Ok, everyone's going crazy with the art thing. I think he meant criticism in general.

Anyway, if you're seriously dedicated to something, and someone gives your constructive criticism, you're going to listen. I mean, if you're into weight training (like me!), and someone tells you your clean and press form is good, but needs some tweaking, and they tell you what you could do to better it, and they point you to reference material about the clean and press, you're gonna listen. Key word being 'constructive'. If someone said "your form sucks, your back is crooked and you're jerking the weight", that's not constructive. They're not even telling you what the hell is wrong, or how you can better your lift. If you really care about, and are dedicated something, you will listen to any and all constructive advice you get.



Pointing out WHAT is wrong is still good...though it's not constructive it still gives you all the info you need to know. Even if you don't get told how to fix it it's still telling you what you are doing wrong and you can either figure it out yourself how to fix or know what to ask someone else.

Destructive and Constructive can both be good... The time when criticism is bad is when no actual helpful info is being transmitted. Such as when someone says "You suck"

[DizzyDi]

On 2007-04-28 11:03, SolomonGrundy wrote:
holy unibrow on that guy! He neer heard of tweezers?



Thats a girl.

[Sayara]

She cries in her grave as we speak

[Dahilia]

I know how you feel.
Constructive criticism is what the world needs more of in addition to people being educated on why cc isn't a threat to them but tough love. I mean, why do people pay for folks like life coaches? It's to get honest feedback other people are too scared to give because "they don't think it's nice." Well, that's where tact comes in. You can be nice while being constructive and honest.

So yeah, I totally agree with you; be it art, life, whatever.

OK, time to find a lollercaust-filled thread in here.