Official Acrofighter Thread

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, in response to Shimarisu's post about Acrotechers, decided to do one about Acrofighters. They're a class that specializes in single handed weaponry, and have some proficiency in twin weapons as well, although not at S rank. This appears to be more like a quick, high-speed melee fighter as opposed to the raw crushing power of Fortefighter. Well, to begin with, the class needs level 3 Hunter and level 5 Ranger in order to be unlocked. Despite this, I'm sure many would see this as more Hunter than Ranger. Oh, and if I make mistakes, you're free to correct me since the only experience I have with this class is a beta for like, a few hours.

Humans get a 5% stat bonus for this class, which is big enough for Male Human ATP to surpass Female CAST, their DFP to surpass Beast DFP of the same gender, and for Male Human ATA to surpass Female Newman ATA. Its probably like this for the Acrotecher class too I think.

They also have the highest EVP of all classes, and the 2nd highest TP, which is used for their shadoogs. Here are their lv 10 stat mods:
AF 10:
HP: 124%
ATP: 124%
ATA: 130%
TP: 136%
DFP: 140%
EVP: 230%
MST: 100%
STA: 120%

Acrofighters also get a speed boost in ALL of their usable Melee weapons. Just wanted to clarify that. The speed boost also applies to PAs too, not to normal attacks. Heres a pic of the weapon distribution:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/ashley_riot/05.jpg

The stats may make them seem a bit broken, but I think the limited weaponry was an attempt to make them more balanced. Although the class still looks very awesome.

Besides the weapons they can use, they also have access to traps. They are able to use Damage, Burn, Poison, and Virus traps along with their G versions.

Well, that's Acrofighter in a nutshell. And Warning, any more race wars and I WILL bring up the Relic Gun, Tanks, Summons, and the Black Nanoblast w/ the 2 Axes, so be careful. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-10-14 06:34 ]</font>

[Dhylec]

That's a rather empty start. How about something to nip at like this..


Acrofighter:
S-ranks - twin sabers, saber, dagger, claw, slicer, handgun, shadoog
A-ranks - twin handgun, card
Level 40 Skills, Level 30 bullets
20% faster with twin sabers
Description: Acrofighter plays much like a figunner. The class is based on swift melee combat complemented by shadoogs. The class has similar stats to figunner aswell, except for an increase amount of evade and defence at the sacrafice of weapon selection.

[SolomonGrundy]

1st question: can they use traps?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I know, didn't add too much to it cuz there was a Jarba shooting megid at me. Yeah, multitasking. And no, I don't think they can use traps or whatever.

[chibiLegolas]

Interesting. So I take it that twin sabers is the ideal boss weapon for this class? Regardless of AF being the masters of single weapon combat, they threw them a 2 handed weapon to help them out in such cases?
I can't imagine how impressive a shadoog can be on bosses. Especially since SE doesn't do squat.

And now, AF "might" be the ones dealing the most damage with fans. I guess it depends how much they would loose out on 40 BA bonuses.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-05-03 13:27 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

Good question. It was decided long ago that Mufonna was going this route. The appearance of such a class is a guarrantee that I'll be seeing this first hand, as well. I've been favoring the use of Twin Sabers for a while, with the character. Part of the reason is that much of the synths have gone that way, for her. For her Fortefighter-side, I'll probably still sub Spears.

I still haven't seen Shadoogs in action, so I have no comment on their abilities.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I might be using Twin Sabers alot on my Human AF, if only for RP reasons. Either way, even as a Fortefighter, Twin Sabers are still his main weapon. As for Shadoogs, they're not so bad, they shoot if there's an enemy in front of you, and they're pretty good for their SEs. Its also great on my character since he's a guy who doesn't use guns due to his code of honor(well, just for kicks, he'll use kikamis too), and Shadoogs just do the gunning for him, so he benefits from that. Lazy ranged fighting ftw. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
Single Daggers and Buten Shuren Zan isn't so bad on bosses either, and Cards are good on manbearpigs and dragon bosses.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-03 13:38 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Well, if you want to continue from our little interruption in the ult card PA thread, here’s what we have so far. I honestly don’t know where to go from there.

Honestly, I don’t think the high EVP will be too much of an issue regardless of class in a 4-6 player party. In less than that, you might start wishing you were an fF or FG. You can also eliminate that problem by using quick PAs like Rising Strike and Shunbu Shuren-zan (though you’ll sacrifice a lot of damage…).

And, as I’ve said in every other thread when I’ve argued Cast and Beasts are better or at least equal, there’s no such thing as a bad class combination and each one is better than others in certain situations.

However, don’t be confused: there are bad players. Everyone knows a Diga and Dambarta spamming Cast fT that never heals or buffs is a horrible play style and a ranger who doesn’t burn, infect, freeze, or stun-lock every subboss is completely useless to the team. Though it’s a lot harder to mess up on a hunter…


On 2007-05-03 08:40, Pillan wrote:
The class may have high EVP (the highest in the game), but it's also primarily a melee class with some ranged and, more importantly, no technique usage. We already know how much hunters hate EVP, so I won't even go there. Yes human would fill up the entire stat distribution nicely (and they get a bonus), but Cast or Beast would fill the more important stats: HP, ATP, DFP, and reduced EVP. And, with about the same ATA as FG, even a Beast wouldn't have trouble using cards.

It's really like arguing human and Newman make better Fighgunners. Yes they have more EVP and MST (and they both get a bonus), but does anyone care?

And, yeah, you don't need to mess with a class to know who's good with it. Just look at the stats, the PA limits, and the weapon selection, and you can tell. I agree that anyone will be good as AF, but I'll go ahead and say now that Cast will be the most preferred class since they reduce the EVP and fill all the other stats very well. (Cast MST is never a huge issue since all the armors double or triple it, depending on the class and brand, and all the low MST classes have higher HP. Not to mention AF already has MST that rivals WT.)

I'll also go ahead and say that most people will drop AF after a couple weeks and return to FG, fF, or WT just because most people hate 1 hand melee and would prefer a wide weapon selection on a class with worse stats and less S ranks.


Getting back on topic... Even without a buff, the ult fan PA still shoots HP drain 3 x 3 at 21+, so it will be useful on AF. With the buff it jumps from useful to godly. You'll definitely see my AF Caseal using it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-03 08:51 ]</font>



On 2007-05-03 11:16, Shiroryuu wrote:
Uh, Male Human AF has more atp than Caseal AF just so you know. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
It'll be great that AF gets lv 30 bullets and get that 3rd shot from the Kikami. I'm sure that Sega had Acrofighter in mind when they made this bullet art, it was practically made for them.




On 2007-05-03 12:15, Pillan wrote:
Looking at PSUpedia’s gathered stat page, male human at level 100 has 673 ATP and Caseal has 703. Human male would clearly have more ATP at low levels if their ATP bonus was more than 5% (but even Beast fF only gets a 4% ATP bonus and I highly doubt AF would get more than that), so I seriously doubt that will remain true in the final version. And, even if it does, Caseal will clearly have an ATP advantage once you gain a few expert class levels and character levels (at level 80 and class level 10, the bonuses already become almost negligible).

You saw the same issue with Newman GTs having more ATA than Casts around level 50 and GT 1, but now Casts clearly has a bit more.




Moving on to the current topic… I’d say the 20 hit combo of Buten Shuren-zan (160% damage at 30 and first 8 hits buffed by about 20%) and the 18 hit combo of Gravity Strike (140% ATP at 30 and second 12 hits buffed by something that I haven’t calculated yet) do more than Assault Crush (higher multiplier on a weaker weapon, but only 10 hits). Rising and Splendor can probably compete though. I won’t bother doing a calculation though. I’ll just leave you to take my word on it or do it yourself.

Also I’ll say not to underestimate handguns. With level 30 bullets (I have a feeling the cap will be 20 when you start AF and increase to 30 at AF 11 or so), handguns can burn subbosses. Additionally, they have a 160-165% ATP multiplier and significantly higher weapon ATP than their twin equivalent. When you take their firing speed into account, twin handguns do deal slightly more damage, but once you throw in the A rank cap of twins, you realize that a 15 star handgun will deal a lot more damage per time than a 9 star twin. At that high, they’ll probably even outdamage A rank cards.

In the long run, I see myself using Shadoogs for effects (since I hear they get effect 4 or higher), Handguns for flying bosses, and Cards for HP drain and ranged damage spam. As far as melee, I’ll try out Slicers, but I really expect to stick to Daggers and Sabers. Claw PAs really aren’t that great in terms of damage spam, but the first claw PA is decent against flying enemies (great for Tengohgs) and the second looks really cool.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, at least you don't sound like one who criticizes FOcast ro HUnewm or other wrong combinations. As for Handguns, they're not so bad, but they're kind of boring looking. I agree about Buten Shuren Zan, its just destructively powerful. As for Evasion, I'm a Hunter and I have to say that I LOVE evasion, great to evade tornado spins, hentai worms, and piggies. I prefer that over being knocked down which gets more annoying than blocking, not to mention I might lose both HP and PP, I prefer to lose only the PP and block.

[Pillan]

I have nothing against any class combination, but I do have something against people who claim one class combination is better when it’s not clearly true. Anyone who says a Cast fT can outdamage anything will get a post from me about why they’re wrong. Anyone saying Assault Crush or Gravity Dance can do a lot of damage will be severely beaten by me. We also saw the same thing happen in my responses to the flame-inspiring pro-human/Newman AT topic.

Also, as a Caseal WT, attacks from enemies within 10-20 levels higher than my character never seem to knock me down (thanks in part to Deband and YC armor). I’ll argue that that won’t be so much of an issue in a team with someone who occasionally uses buffs or if I decide to carry my own (yay Debaride or however it’s spelled). It’s really rare for me to be knocked back by an attack and lose a PA, but blocking and losing it happens pretty regularly. Of course I have to agree with you about the tornado spins though, but I’m pretty sure you’re dead regardless.

Personally, I’d rather lose the HP and continue the PA and then use the godly buffed HP drain level 3 x 3 of the ult card bullet to restore the little bit that I lost.

[Kaydin]

I may end up making Mathyu an Acrofighter. He's going Fighgunner, specializing in Twin Sabers and Sabers.
I will try it on him, I wanna try the Slicers and Shadoogs. Dunno if I'll keep it though.

[AC9breaker]

You know, I'm gonna respond to thread and report my observations from the time I spent playing the job. I'm too tired at the moment to compile my thoughts so I'll just say this for now. Acrofighter is a defensive class relying heavily on its speed and Evasion. Newmens and Humans will be able to take the most advantage of this class. Just like they are able to take the most advantage out of Fortetecher. An Acrofighter who does not use Shadoogs is going to suck balls. You'll only want to be using your Twin Sabers and cards for bosses and Large type enemies. Even then I found that I only preferred twin sabers for its reach, not its damage. I'll expand later after I've had some rest.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-05-03 17:31, AC9breaker wrote:
An Acrofighter who does not use Shadoogs is going to suck balls.

Yep. Now watch everyone ignore points like this like how they all ignored me about the usage of techs on aTs. I personally didn't spend much time on the class but I could tell that shadoogs were very indespensable in many areas.

Also ignore that description about the class being like FG. I disagree largely with that. Neither of the acro classes play like any of the current classes and can't really be related to them.

One last note, the "official" abbreviations for Acrofighter is "aF". Not to be picky but it does help if everyone uses the same abbreviations even if this doesn't cause the problems like "fG" and "FG" do.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I'm definately gonna enjoy having Shadoogs shoot things for me while I Buten Shuren Zan them. Cards will also be in my pallete, for that ultimate bullet art that leeches.

[Kaydin]

One question about Shadoogs: Do the Earth ones cause Silence or Poison?

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-03 18:55, Kaydin wrote:
One question about Shadoogs: Do the Earth ones cause Silence or Poison?



Differnt ranks cause different effects. Someone reported that higher rank earth shadoogs cause stun (!!)

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Ooh, stun, that sounds pretty sweet. Silence isn't so bad either, I hate being hit by techs, but then again, Acrofighters have the same MST as Guntecher, which is something, I'm sure enough to make a difference.

[AC9breaker]

Its not different ranking Shadoogs cause different effects. Its Shadoogs cause different effects, period. Earth elemental Shadoogs cause stun, Dark Elemental Shadoog cause incapacitate, Light elemental shadoogs cause sleep. Ice, Fire, and Lightning still have their same respective effects; Freeze, Burn, and Paralyze. The difference ranks play in Shadoogs is not only boost to their attack power, but as mentioned before speed and rate of fire. You would swear you had a Fortegunner in your party at the rate a 6 star shadoog was firing and processing its elemental effects. ( exaggerating but you get the idea)


Now I'm not gonna talk much about numbers cause I'm a main Protranser. I gave up on numbers along time ago. The only numbers that really matter for Acrofighter is Evasion becuase we're talking about huge numbers, something that can't be ignored. Fo now, I'm mainly gonna talk about the Mechanics of the job.

Now when I first jumped into Acrofighter, I focused at first on Twin Sabers. Exceptional attack power and increased attack speed, it was great. But as we started doing higher ranking missions with faster reacting enemies, it was proving much more difficult to get my attacks off without being interrupted or without spending 2 hours running around all the enemies so as to be sure none of them would interrupt me while I started my attacks. Cue Shadoog and Single handed weapon.

I had found me a few Shadoogs, fire,ice,and light elemental shadoogs. I was rather impressed with their ability to land SE's so I figured I would buy me an Earth type Shadoog for the new Del Rol Li mission since they had Earth type Vanda doods who would LOL HUMAR rush towards you and spam Gadiga. But holy crap low and behold, Earth isn't Silence SE, its stun! Earth Shadoogs, gave me the opportunity to attack without the worry of being disrupted once I started my PA combos. Not only that, but even my JP teamates where thanking me for using my Earth type Shadoog. After stunning about half the enemies from a spawn I could see why.


From there on I became shadoog crazy and just focused on Shadoog combos. Shadoogs compliment Acrofighters so damn well. While enemies are trying so hard to hit you, you'll be shooting at them, setting them on Fire, opening a window of attack with stun so you can go PA crazy on them, or Killing them with your Megid Shadoog bullets. The perfect defensive weapon. Attacking while your blocking. But perhaps the most defensive combo of choice for Acrofighter is Slicers and Shadoog. The male animation for slicer just about keeps you in the same place. Slicer also seems to have great ATP and definitely draws the enemy towards you like a laser cannon.

So Shadoogs seem pretty awesome right now. Does that mean an Acrofighter should always use them? Nope, there are gonna be times when you want to use your Twin sabers or Cards. For example, Shadoogs follow the old Trap rule that if they do 0 damage their effect will not even have a chance to land. Shadoogs have pretty shitty power. So when fighting against enemies with high defense such as Robots don't expect much out of your shadoog. It also seems that Shadoogs just like rifles have a difficult time landing SE's on Shield buffed/king buffed/large type enemies.

Now back to my first point of why I think Humans and newmens will be the most efficient at this job. Evasion. I played acrofighter as a cast, we have the worst evasion of all the races. But even so, I was surprised at how much my cast was blocking. It reminded me of the parry feature in Street Fighter 3rd Strike. My cast was a beast(so to speak), being in the frontlines and taking very little damage. But I was sure, if i had just a bit more evasion I would be taking almost no damage at all. I'm not saying Beast and Cast are going to suck at this job. But just like Beasts and Cast make better Fortefighters then human and Newmens. Newmens and Humans will make better Acrofighters because of the importance of evasion combined with the passive abilities of Shadoogs.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I kind of agree. I would also like to say that this is defninitely NOT the job for those Hunters who say "Oh, I hate evasion, it always interrupts my PAs, boo hoo hoo." Besides, even if you block and lose PP, melee weapons regenerate like 8 PP per tick[mind you, I was using Yohmei Twin Sabers and Single Daggers in the beta cuz they look cooler], so its crazy fast.

[panzer_unit]

I've been crazy about evasion on my characters for a while now. It's the next best thing, defensively, after really high element %'s... with no chance of getting served when you're sideswiped by some off (or opposite >_<) element attack. You can also choose PA that start and keep going with crowd control as they go along, and/or aren't dependant on their last move for the majority of their damage. Twin sabers are really nice there, in fact. Rising Crush can launch a TON of monsters without giving a lot of chances for return hits, and Assault Crush whips through the combo moves really quickly compared to twin daggers and just about anything else I use.

"Best" race/class combos is all a load of bullshit on par with trying to talk about the "best" PA or weapon type. You don't use just one attack day in and day out regardless of the mission or your current situation. Supposing you have relevant skills already, jobs are one of the most flexible things your character's got. Sure a cast fT will not outperform a newm as a fT... but fT might outperform any of their other job choice available to that cast if they know a zonde tech and are about to spend a night doing Grove of Fanatics.

After a lot of Desert Goliath S runs I can totally see the benefit of Acrofighter... you can afk to pee and grab a beer while your guy blocks 100% of incoming Grinna Bete fire and the shadoog takes 'em out for you. Your fortegunner teammates probably won't mind having somewhere safe to stand and shoot grenades from either.

[Pillan]

It’s very hard for me to agree that any class can ever be EVP dependant when a Newman fT can’t block even one third the attacks that come toward it with 200% and the class has the second highest DFP in the game. An extra 30% won’t change that, but you might have some hope if you stick to TW brand armor.

Now, someone mentioned an EVP buff to me earlier (right now you really can’t tell the difference between Newman and Cast blocking on WT, but the DFP difference is equally if not more BS), but, regardless, if you can’t block more than half the attacks it’s impossible to argue that a class is more EVP dependant than DFP dependant. On the other hand, I will agree with you if you call it a defender that takes advantage of high evasion, but it’s not an evader that takes advantage of high defense.

Yes, we all know EVP has big numbers and, yes, they're even bigger on human and Newman, but what do those numbers actually do? That’s what really bothers me with the flow of this topic so far.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-04 08:38 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Cool to see someone who likes EVP, I've been getting tired of this whole "EVP SUX" stuff. I could list a whole bunch of stuff that I would much rather evade:
Svaltus tornado swords + Zalure
Hentai worm pop out + jellen [As PJ said one time, Wurms be popping out]
Piggy stomp which can also stun you
Palavorha [spell check?] stomps
Vil De Bear big punches which can either stun you or cast Jellen on you
Onmagohg/Dimmagolus/Manbearpig punches and rock/enemy throws
The list goes on but you know what I mean. While people hate evasion for its PA interruption, there are attacks that can knock you down or send you flying, and as a result, you lose both HP AND PP. Which would you prefer? Blocking a potentially painful attack and losing PP, or getting hit by that attack, being knocked down, and still having you PA interrupted. Some would say "Oh, thats why I work on my DFP", but come on, I'm sure that even a female CAST fF would still get knocked back or at least flinch and still have her PA interrupted from these attacks, or in other cases, be inflicted with a status effect, which is WAY worse than losing a few PP. Besides, Hunters have normal attacks for a reason. Just because you do normal attacks doesn't mean you're playing a gimp Hunter. You can even use the normal attacks on week monsters like Ageetas, Badiras, etc, and save the PP for the dangerous monsters like Lapuchas[dude, they friggin deadly] or for those that have so many targets that its just so tempting to use them like Kamatozes and Drua Gohras.

[Pillan]

On 2007-05-04 08:27, Shiroryuu wrote:
Cool to see someone who likes EVP, I've been getting tired of this whole "EVP SUX" stuff. I could list a whole bunch of stuff that I would much rather evade:
Svaltus tornado swords + Zalure
Hentai worm pop out + jellen [As PJ said one time, Wurms be popping out]
Piggy stomp which can also stun you
Palavorha [spell check?] stomps
Vil De Bear big punches which can either stun you or cast Jellen on you
Onmagohg/Dimmagolus/Manbearpig punches and rock/enemy throws
The list goes on but you know what I mean. While people hate evasion for its PA interruption, there are attacks that can knock you down or send you flying, and as a result, you lose both HP AND PP. Which would you prefer? Blocking a potentially painful attack and losing PP, or getting hit by that attack, being knocked down, and still having you PA interrupted. Some would say "Oh, thats why I work on my DFP", but come on, I'm sure that even a female CAST fF would still get knocked back or at least flinch and still have her PA interrupted from these attacks, or in other cases, be inflicted with a status effect, which is WAY worse than losing a few PP.


I’ll agree with you on most of those situations besides the worms. You can easily reduce that to zero damage with a 10% fire YC armor (slight exaggeration, but you get the point). On the other situations, I can’t see myself or any decent hunter using a PA in the middle of those attacks because you expect to either block it or collapse on the ground. Also most of those attacks have extremely low ATA and I block them more than half the time on a Caseal fG or WT. You’re not getting too much of an advantage as a human or Newman aF or aT there since anyone with decent ATA can block them. But, most importantly, that doesn’t describe the majority of the situations you experience on PSU. It’s like arguing Mayelee Fury is great on everything because it works on Gol Dova, Bear clones, worms, and SEED Vance.

I also agree that blocking is better than being thrown aside mid PA, which is obviously better than being shocked, stunned, or frozen, but I disagree that this is a major issue. How often do you fight Gol Dova aside from Crimson Beast spam? How many missions does Svaltus appear in? When can you ever find a team on Neudaiz?

The standard situation I’d consider is 2-3 medium-sized enemies standing in front of you in a team of 4-6 players. These enemies won’t throw you around if you block, nor will they land some annoying status effect that kills your PA. Now, for the 5 minutes out of the 25 minute mission where you’re actually dealing with those annoying enemies you mentioned, EVP does become very useful. But, even if you do get stunned by a Gol Dova’s slam, odds are a teammate will use Reverser or a Sol Atomizer on you. (As a small aside, stun doesn't cancel your PA for some reason.)

Really all the defensive stats stop mattering when you have a decent team and you can focus on optimizing damage. That’s the main reason Newman fT is preferred to something less squishy.


On 2007-05-04 08:27, Shiroryuu wrote:
Besides, Hunters have normal attacks for a reason. Just because you do normal attacks doesn't mean you're playing a gimp Hunter. You can even use the normal attacks on week monsters like Ageetas, Badiras, etc, and save the PP for the dangerous monsters like Lapuchas[dude, they friggin deadly] or for those that have so many targets that its just so tempting to use them like Kamatozes and Drua Gohras.


It’s impossible to argue that you’re not gimped unless you’re using a Double Saber (6 hits to 4 enemies at 100% ATP is a lot more damage than most PAs…). I can’t name anyone that I play with who doesn’t PA spam the entire round, even with the negligible EVP issue.

The EVP won’t make or break the class, but it will get annoying on medium and even more so on small enemies and everyone will enjoy it when it stops one of the attacks you mentioned if your DFP is low enough to be blown away by it (which is likely when the enemies are several levels higher than you). And it definitely won’t kill your PP from all the canceled skills. Not to mention EVP and DFP are inversely proportional on each race and since aF is extremely high in both, you’re going to do great defense-wise regardless.

Honestly, I’d say you’re fine regardless of race, but I’ll also say higher offensive stats are greatly preferred to defensive stats since team efficiency is primarily based on damage/time and every race and class combination will be alright in terms of survival in a party. That’s why I’ll argue that Cast and Beast are clearly the better choices for efficiency as any class with War or Figh in its name. Cast and Newman are clearly the best for anything that focuses on low ATA weapons. Techer has its issues though, since aT and WT will realistically do about the same damage with both melee and techniques in a party, but everyone can agree that human and Newman are the best at fT.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, either way, I'm sure that the majority of Acrofighters are still gonna be Humans, just like 95% of the Fighgunner population. Hell, I'm sure that a pretty big majority or so of the Human population probably go to a melee class, including me, especially if they were PSO vets who played HUmars, like me. I mean, I've seen more CAST fT than I see Human fT, and more Human fF than CAST fF. End of the day, Panzerunit may be right in saying that race and stuff are all bullshit. Also, for ATP, there is a very minute difference between Human and CAST, and we use high ATA weapons too, so ATA isn't an issue. And for male newmans, this is great for those that are feeling inadequate about their masculinity(No Vanhalen, not you, you've proven your masulinity by being fF) by being fTs all the time(I mean, if I was in the back casting magic and a member of a physically weak race while a female beast is using a huge axe, I'd feel my masculinity being threatented too) and wanna prove that they are still men. But I'm curious to see how a female Newman Acrofighter will do with a Rabol Rappy. Man, I wish I could have hunted that armor down.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-04 10:07 ]</font>

[Pillan]

I would have to disagree there. The majority of the Fighgunners I see now are Caseals. I do agree that if you look at the first generation of players, all the Newmans are fTs or WTs, all the Casts are fGs or GTs, all the Beasts are fFs, and all the humans are FGs. However, since all the Newman females have their mains at level 80 with all maxed techs, they all began making Caseal fGs and FGs. Plus when you take into account that Cast is currently the most popular race to play, just based on the numbers game Casts outnumber humans on every class (except WT for some reason…). But I’m on the US PS2/PC servers. It may be different for you if you play elsewhere.

What I see happening is this: a huge flux of people of all races switch to aF and aT just because they’re new and very few stick with them because they miss the wide weapon selection and cool PAs that the other classes offer. After that I’ll say you’ll see more Cast aFs for the same reason you see lots of Casts in every class. But we have like 10 months before we can even test that calculation and I doubt Casts will have a clear majority, just a plurality.

As for the ATP thing, it’s clear to everyone that Caseals and human males have close enough to the same ATP that no one really cares that Caseals have a bit more, but I’m not so sure about the difference between human males and Casts. I’ll go ahead and do a calculation based on PSUpedia’s level 100 stats and level 30 Buten Shuren-zan. I agree with you that ATA is pretty negligible until you try to use Twin Mayelee/Penetration or Penetrating Hit (which I’ll assume are all the average aF uses twin handguns and handguns for).

Anyway, onto the calculation. I really have no idea how this one will turn out, so it will be a surprise to all of us. Cast male has 732 ATP and human male has 673. I think aF has 124% ATP, but I’m too lazy to check. I’ll assume humans get a 3% ATP bonus just like FG, so Cast male has 907 and human male has 854. That’s a 52 ATP difference, or about 10 or 11 damage. Now we add in the PA and 20% element weapons and that difference jumps from 10 damage to 406 or 407 damage per complete Buten Shuren-zan (note that this calculation does not take into account that the first 8 hits gain an extra 20% ATP). Of course 407 out of the 5000 or so damage you’re doing isn’t that big an issue, but it is a little noticeable (we’ll say a 10% efficiency sacrifice).

I’m also curious to see how well a Newman would evade with TW armor. I wonder if it would actually block 50% of the time.

[AC9breaker]

I'm a bit disappointed in you panzer especially after you've written this.



Newmans - I want to be nicer, but I think newms would just be way better off as a GunTecher or ForteGunner, because they'll be even farther behind humans for the melee side of the Protranser job. Go for more ATP with the same weapons you would actually be using as a PT, and more elf-friendly defensive stats.

You have to admit that Sega had specific roles in mind for each race when they made them. Sure a Newmen can do Fortefighter, if you'd ever played with Aweofshe you'd say without a doubt that they can do Protranser too. When it comes to the melee classes every Race can do it since Melee in this game is more about skill(which is questionable) unlike spamming diga all day where its more dependent on your stats. But you've got to admit that a Cast Fortefighter will be much more efficient then a Newmen fortefighter. Now consequently I've stated that Newmens and Humans make for more efficient Acrofighter becuase it is a defensive class that depends on its evasion. I feel the same way Pillian does, I don't understand how Evasion works but to be honest I really don't care enough to figure out. But being a Protranser main, switching from Ranger on Beta, I totally noticed the difference the 210% evasion had. Which increased each time my job leveled up. So being that Humans and Newmens have much more evasion I simply did 1+1. Still though, wouldn't you think that I would choose cast and beasts with their higher defense and greater attack?


First, lets get off the talk of an offensive Acrofighter because quite frankly if you wanted Offense your Better off going any of the Forteclasses or all of us just playing Fortetecher. Plus thats a bit of a misleading statement you made Pillian.

"but I’ll also say higher offensive stats are greatly preferred to defensive stats since team efficiency is primarily based on damage/time and every race and class combination will be alright in terms of survival in a party."

Going by that logic then you could argue that Protransers suck because we have the shittiest stats, fortegunners can use all the traps we can, and since offense is the only thing that matters in this game they're outclassed in offense by everyone else. Acrofighter is a defensive class. Weather it relies more on Evasion then on Defense I can't say because I only played the job as a Cast. But like I've said before, the EVP boost was so noticeable that it was a big reason for me leaning towards Human and Newmen. Just like I lean more towards Humans and Casts in Protranser. Acrofighter also seems to have as much strategical value as a Protranser. Shadoogs serve both as an equalizer and basic component to Acrofighter. By making it necessary to use one-handed weapons it makes the argument of greater ATP moot because everyones attack will fall in a similar range. The only speed weapon that really takes advantage of ATP boosts like in cast or Beast are Spears and Twin Daggers. Probably the only place where that ATP difference will really shine in Acrofighter is in Cards and Twin Sabers. Which I have already mentioned isn't as optimal a combo as Shadoogs and Single handed weapons. Now something I forgot to mention in my last post is Acrofighters having MST comparable to Guntechers. This was another reason why I consider Acrofighter the Human and Newmen combo of choice. With half decent elemental armor you could be an impenetrable tank. Its easy to avoid attacks you can see, but its always the attacks that come from off-screen that get you like techs.

I'm not saying that as a Beast or Cast your gonna have a hard time playing Acrofighter. In fact, I had a blast playing as a cast Acrofighter relying mostly on my Single handed dagger and shadoog combo. Though I', quite sure if I was a Human or newmen I would have taken a lot less damage then I did as a cast. I view the job like Protranser, each Race will have it's own way of playing it but there are still traits of the Job that put it more in favor towards a certain race then others.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I kind of curious on the level of status effects on the different Shadoogs. Do they go up as the Shadoog is higher ranked?

[chibiLegolas]

Just out of curiosity, and a question for beta testers:
Is there a clear role for AF's in a party? And what is it?
Are they a different type of tank?
Decoy/distractions?
Damage dealers with a side of SE with shadogs? (isn't that similiar to certain FiG's role though? Just different SE availability? Therefore same roles, just different flavor?)
PA usage solely for knock/up/down/back, etc.?
Fighters who techers can have less worry for?

I could imagine AF's jumping in front of a techer to start "taking it" for the team. And techers having less worries about healing them as appose to a FF.

And what about single crea weapons?
I remember hearing in passing that crea weapons suck. I don't know the details since it didn't concern me (not a newman/human fighter).
But if AF/AT's are good for newmans and humans, do the single crea weapons have a new found usage with the AF class? Maybe there's finally a hunter who doesn't need to PA spam all the time?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-05-04 13:49 ]</font>

[Pillan]

To AC9 (darn you people for posting before I finished...):

Actually, I would have to agree with you that PT is pretty useless right now. However, when you add in the fact that they get EX traps on top of G traps, they begin to shine based on the extra trap damage on enemies with insanely high STA that are immune to bullet effects. Yes PT sucks right now, but I’m discounting the future just like I do when I consider S ranks.

As far as aF, you do lose some damage based on spears, axes, and swords, but sabers and claws tie for the 4th highest ATP of any melee weapon and daggers are pretty high too. I’ll continue to argue that Gravity Strike can compete with most melee PAs (besides the spear ones) just based on number of hits and BSZ is pretty much useful in any situation you’d want to use RBZ. And as for the damage difference, it varies with the multiplier like you said, but I would argue that it matters on anything with a ridiculously high multiplier (all the twin saber PAs) or ridiculously high number of hits (RBZ, BSZ). You do lose a bit of damage from the lack of spears, twin daggers, and axes, but you gain a lot from Shadoog effect spam, making them useful and efficient for basically the same reason PT is. However, you further increase that efficiency in both cases with more ATP (we’ve already been over the fact that ATA doesn’t really matter for hunters).

As for the MST thing, well, I’ve never had trouble with magic damage as a Cast fG. Sure Casts do have noticeably less MST (about 1/3 the value of Newmans), but once you add in armor and the HP difference, it’s pretty negligible until you switch to fT.

But, yes, I do agree with you that aF replaces WT for the perfect wall class and I do agree that human makes the most out of the wall stats. I just disagree that it will be a big deal regardless of race choice. I also agree that the ATP difference isn’t that big an issue on any hunter class since all the weapons at least double your ATP by the time you can use them, but when people ask “which is the best?”, I define the best as the one that’s most efficient in what I call the standard situation. If you define the best as in who survives the most, human clearly wins. If you define it as who evades the most, Newman wins.



I think I’ll add something to the EVP consideration. I mean, a lot of people see that EVP is a ridiculously high stat and 230% is a ridiculously high multiplier, but most people don’t see that 140% DFP is an equally ridiculously high multiplier. Consider the median DFP and EVP values for each class: fG has 140% EVP and GT has 90% DFP. Anything around those values is at least decent, below is weak, and high above is godly. Now when you consider how far each is from the median, the DFP is around 1.55 times the median and the EVP is around 1.64 times the median. The EVP is a bit higher, but it doesn’t seem as ridiculously high as it did before.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-04 13:53 ]</font>

[Arika]

Just want to say for ppl who trying to be AF in the future and get attack boost speed
Alseva Cresa + 38% Ice on my shop http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[SStrikerR]

On 2007-05-03 12:21, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, in response to Shimarisu's post about Acrotechers, decided to do one about Acrofighters. Discuss.

Heres a pic of the item distribution:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4337/acrofighterxa9.jpg

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-03 13:04 ]</font>
holy crap acrofighter weps are crap!to me almost everythihng they can wield sucks.

[SStrikerR]

sorry bout double post, but wait, you can use a shadoog AND a weapon at the same time?

[AC9breaker]

You know, I've discussed and defended Protranser so many times that I just don't feel like defending it again here. I'm just gonna say this, the option to multi-task and switch roles is a very valuable option, especially when certain weapons perform best in certain situations.


On 2007-05-04 13:51, Pillan wrote:
Now when you consider how far each is from the median, the DFP is around 1.55 times the median and the EVP is around 1.64 times the median. The EVP is a bit higher, but it doesn’t seem as ridiculously high as it did before.




Come on man no need to be misleading with those numbers. When we're talking in decimal form any change in the tenth position is always a significant change. For the average male, the legal Blood Alcohol limit to drive is .02 and under Anything past .08 and your legally intoxicated. At .15 you've got a chance of getting alcohol poisoning. Those numbers seem minuscule in degree of change but the effects are undeniable


@Arika, I search what I think was your shop. Kittycat Arika, but saw no Alseva Cresa.http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif Did you sell them already? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif


Shadoog is a left handed weapon so yes you can wield a right handed weapon. Slicers are Also right handed.

The effects of Shadoog seem to be the same for all Shadoog ranks. an SE level was never listed on the stats of the Shadoog however I'm guessing its either SE 2 or 3. I never did any experimentation so take what I said as a grain of salt.

The best way i can describe the role of an Acrofighter in a party is that to a Ninjas in FFXI.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AC9breaker on 2007-05-05 13:58 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I personally love Acrofighter's weapon selection, it has some of my favorite weapons, Musashis, Single Daggers, Slicers, Shadoogs and Kikamis. To my taste, this seems like the perfect class for my human.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-05 17:50 ]</font>

[VanHalen]

On 2007-05-05 13:45, Ryan113 wrote:
sorry bout double post, but wait, you can use a shadoog AND a weapon at the same time?



Yes.

[Kupi]

On 2007-05-05 18:04, VanHalen wrote:

On 2007-05-05 13:45, Ryan113 wrote:
sorry bout double post, but wait, you can use a shadoog AND a weapon at the same time?



Yes.



To elaborate: Shadoogs are a left-handed weapon. All one-handed melee weapons (such as sabers, claws, daggers, and slicers (are slicers a melee weapon?)) are used in the right hand. Therefore, you can use a Shadoog alongside any one-handed melee weapon. Two-handed weapons such as twin sabers and other types of left-handed weapons such as cards cannot be used at the same time as a Shadoog.

[Jakosifer]

I didn't know they couldn't use Twin Daggers... ._.

Eh, Im sticking to figh, plus AF cant use traps so...bleh.

[Kimil]

On 2007-05-05 13:42, Ryan113 wrote:

On 2007-05-03 12:21, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, in response to Shimarisu's post about Acrotechers, decided to do one about Acrofighters. Discuss.

Heres a pic of the item distribution:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4337/acrofighterxa9.jpg

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-03 13:04 ]</font>
holy crap acrofighter weps are crap!to me almost everythihng they can wield sucks.



Single Sabers - Rock
Single Daggers - Rock
Single Claws - Rock
Cards/Fans - Rock
Duallies - Rock
Handguns/Twin Saber/Shadoogs/Slicers - I have no opinion on



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-05-07 07:17 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

The more I play characters using Twin Sabers, the more I like them. They also look quite graceful if you control your character, mid combo, to strike at different enemies.

Of course, you sort of want to keep up with them, as the higher level enemies don't hit stun so well. You do, at times, have to be ready to spam the PA early on those, though. Still, that isn't exactly a new aspect for a hunter weapon. It's more of a pick your poison kind of thing. I do like supplementing them with Spears, though. But quite a few of the new weapons I'm not so sure on what you can do with them. If this class had spears, they'd probably be a bit too good, though.

On the other hand, I can still see Mufonna absolutely tearing up things with multi-monster hitting PAs. Giving both Acrobat classes Twin Guns still sounds like a "Sega reading from Tynselle Backstory" idea, but it does give them something nasty. That's a free long range Monster Aggro generator right there. You can get in first, attract the monsters with Twin Handguns and use Twin MayaLee on them, at the same time. This will soften them up as they run right into your ever loving Swords and Claws.

It's like being a Wolverine that has a little power to pull enemies to him, first. Twin daggers and/or Spears would make this class an absolute monster, with only a small subset of its weapons. As I mentioned before, maybe a little too good. The weapon selection here, seems to hint at different possible strategies, once they come running for you. This will be most fun to find out, first hand.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-05-07 08:14 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I'm satisfied with this class not having spears, if they had spears, they'd be a little broken.

[Akaimizu]

Yeah. That's precisely how I feel. Spears would be a little too much, I'd think. To me, it would seem like a weapon that would take a little too much attention away from other weapons the class can use. I don't mind if the class kind of forces more inventive methods in combining these weapons. Fortefighter is to be Mufonna's primary class, and I don't mind at all leaving Fortefighter as the Spear holders. It's one of the nice exotic twists that would be fun to use, when going back and forth between the two classes.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-05-07 10:14 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-05-05 13:51, AC9breaker wrote:
Come on man no need to be misleading with those numbers. When we're talking in decimal form any change in the tenth position is always a significant change. For the average male, the legal Blood Alcohol limit to drive is .02 and under Anything past .08 and your legally intoxicated. At .15 you've got a chance of getting alcohol poisoning. Those numbers seem minuscule in degree of change but the effects are undeniable
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AC9breaker on 2007-05-05 13:58 ]</font>


Sorry about the slow response. My internet was down over the weekend (bad lightning storm).

Anyway, I wasn’t saying that they’re EVP isn’t good, I was just saying that both are significantly above average to the point that you’ll do fine either way.

Of course it’s obvious that I lean more on the side of defense and I’d rather lower my EVP as much as possible, but I wasn’t trying to put a personal view on that number. I can say that EVP needs to be significantly higher (at least doubled) to notice much difference though, but the ATA/EVP relationship was equally ridiculous in PSO. And that’s why a distance from the median analysis is a lot better than simply saying 230% is larger than 140%.


On the subject of Crea weapons, I seriously doubt they’ll be much more or less useful as an Acro-class. Sure you can attack faster, but power-heavy and hit-heavy PA spamming will always outdo hitting 2 enemies with a basic combo. That’s not to say that it won’t be decent, but I’ll stick to the side of PA spamming. I do admit that weapons with already low attack and high basic combos (twin daggers are good; twin sabers are okay) make excellent choices for Creas and the fact that each Acro-class gets a boost in those weapons definitely makes it seem like an intended purpose.

Just think about it: every twin saber PA has at least 10 hits (the one with that few has 185% ATP at levels 20-30) and every twin dagger PA has over 14 (with at least 130% ATP at level 30), so the Crea basic combo will always do less, even with the speed boost.

That brings me to a good question: do PAs get a speed boost on these classes? I really doubt it, but I wouldn’t be surprised either way.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-05-08 08:39, Pillan wrote:
On the subject of Crea weapons, I seriously doubt they’ll be much more or less useful as an Acro-class. Sure you can attack faster, but power-heavy and hit-heavy PA spamming will always outdo hitting 2 enemies with a basic combo. That’s not to say that it won’t be decent, but I’ll stick to the side of PA spamming. I do admit that weapons with already low attack and high basic combos (twin daggers are good; twin sabers are okay) make excellent choices for Creas and the fact that each Acro-class gets a boost in those weapons definitely makes it seem like an intended purpose.

Just think about it: every twin saber PA has at least 10 hits (the one with that few has 185% ATP at levels 20-30) and every twin dagger PA has over 14 (with at least 130% ATP at level 30), so the Crea basic combo will always do less, even with the speed boost.


I seriously hope that a AF (or any fighter) not PA spamming isn't gonna get chewed out for not doing so.
I've recently started a new HU character to prepare him for AF. And am seriously enjoying the twin saber combo compared to all various weapon PA spamming.

I'm sure it's been discussed before in the past. But I've finally experimented it myself and am having a kick out of simple combo attacks. IMO, it's similiar to the HU class of PSO attacks in par with button mashing which I thoroughly enjoyed.
But with PA spamming, it feels just like as if you're on an auto track. Place yourself, and hit button. You can change your direction, but that's about it. This is just as boring as staying in place the whole encounter and tech spamming or rifle shoot'n (without FPM). No flair what so ever (no offense to RA/FO). And I can't imagine how it's gonna be like at 21+ were the melee animation just gets really long. Hits button and yawns...
Wake me up when the animation's done...

Yes, I'm a newbie to the figher class, so maybe I'm missing something here. But so far, I'm loving the control I have over simple melee combos. And perhaps I'm too used to RA's skill 10 cap with their short animations. But I enjoy the control and hit 'n run technique.

With faster animation combos and possible crea assessories, the AF would be most ideal for like minded aspiring HU's like myself. And I hope team mates aren't gonna kick me for it.
><
The only trulely useful side effect of using skill PA's (other than damage) are the knock up/down/back, etc. certain ones get. And would like to use them mainly for those aspects.

Maybe my mind's too stuck in support/RA mode, but is this the incorrect way of thinking for AF's?
In the mean time, I'm doing the same on FiG.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Pillan]

I doubt you’ll get kicked because you don’t PA spam. The main reason being that no one will notice. Have you ever paid that much attention to what every member in your party is doing? The only things I ever notice are a rifle or bow spamming ranger inflict SE 4 on a subboss or Dambarta cover my screen while I’m trying to attack (who doesn’t hate that?).

You will lose out on damage (aside from the case of Double Sabers, where the basic attack can outdamage the PAs), but I doubt anyone will really care, much less notice.

And, yes, the Acro-class speed boost and Crea weapons will help make up for that lack, but I’ll go ahead and say that it will still be a lack.


As a short aside, pure force is the only class that bores me. Techniques are too slow paced for me. Rangers spend a lot of time moving around, attacking and dodging, and Hunters have nice combos (both basic and PA), but both have lost their luster after playing the class to high levels.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

You know, I've been thinking about this. In the beta, PP regens 8 PP per tick, which is quite alot. So I've been wondering, do you think that Tenora blade weapons would be a good choice for this class? You can do your PAs, do your normal strikes when PP is dry, and when that PP regens up back(which shouldn't be too long), you can do your PAs again, and they have great ATP.

[Alisha]

actually from what ive been shown yomei weapons may be best for AF however what i saw might of been a mishmash of OG and AoI info so only time will tell.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, I'm sure that Yohmeis regenerate faster than GRM and Tenora. In the AoI, with my human Acrofighter, all I really used for blades(musashis and single daggers) were Yohmeis, but more for their cooler looks than for their higher PP which refills within like 10 seconds or so. I know now that Yohmei weaps regen 5 PP per tick, GRM like four, and T-works like 3 PP for Musashis. Following this logic, I'm sure that Yohmei's 8 PP per tick would be more than the GRMs or T-works, so you may be right. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong if you tried GRM stuff on aFs.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-10 14:41 ]</font>

[VanHalen]

I don't know if this was mentioned in this thread before sorry if it was. Do Acrofighters get some kind of special trait to them like Fortefighters have a reduction on PP cost?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, they get faster PP regen. With Yohmeis, it was 8 PP per tick(yeah, i say that alot) as an Acrofighter compared to like 5 PP or so per tick as a Fortefighter or something.

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention that they get a speed bonus with Musashi type weapons in their normal attacks, and I THINK in their PAs as well, Rising Crush seemed faster than on regular PSU when I tried it in the beta, maybe it was just me.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-05-10 15:13 ]</font>

[Yoshiflash]

I have a basic question.

20% faster with PA's as well as normal attacks?

I leveled my human enough to use creas only to find out they didnt add a hit to PAs, just the normal attacks, making them as worthless as I'd always heard.

If this class only gets speed bonus to normal attacks, I'm having real difficulty finding what doesn't just make them slightly gimped fighgunners. Even if they do get PA atk speed I'm STILL having trouble seeing where they aren't slightly gimp fighgunners.

Then again...I think fighgunners just gonna be flat out broken after getting lvl 30 bullets for xbows. They will have 0 weaknesses. As it stands they're 2nd only to fortegunners for solo ability. And fF (by the numbers and stats I've seen) will move even further into useless land for soloing at high levels.

Keep in mind I know nothing about shadoogs and such. Maybe having S ranks over As will make a big enough difference?

[VanHalen]

Well that PP regeneration speed seems great! Expect Acrofighter to be my Newman's secondary job. I got too much love for the Fortefighter job http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

[AC9breaker]

On 2007-05-10 15:19, Yoshiflash wrote:
If this class only gets speed bonus to normal attacks, I'm having real difficulty finding what doesn't just make them slightly gimped fighgunners. Even if they do get PA atk speed I'm STILL having trouble seeing where they aren't slightly gimp fighgunners.



How about not looking at them as Fighgunners but instead as Acrofighters? Fighgunnner is a damage monsters, Acrofighter is a defenseive class. Its a sadist whores wet dream come true. Fighgunner will no doubt outdamage a Acrofighter, but it sure as hell won't last like one.

As for the issue on PP PA spamming. I found that I prefered using my normal attacks most of the time over using PA's. In fact I've gone whole stages just using one weapon and never using a single Photon Charger. I would reserve my Photon Arts for breathing room or for large enemies. I used mostly GRM and Yohmei weps. I think the only Tenora weapons I used where the sweet as hell A rank handguns.

[Niloklives]

hmm...geez this use getting me more antsy about AoI...lol but yeah AF looks interesting too. I play figh as it is, and switching to AF every once in a while wouldn't be hard especially since the weapon selection (aside from S and A ranks) doesn't add any thing new meaining now new PAs to learn....hmmm....

[Yoshiflash]

I'll admit I didn't look REALLY close at the defensive side of AF, those stats are pretty nice indeed and will(hopefully) be even more important when the day comes that people are actually worried about dying at high levels.

But I'm still curious if the speed increase for certain weapons on the new classes(and possibly old ones?) include PA speed. 20% speed to photon arts could make a HUGE difference in the way these could be played.

[Alisha]

bumped because Acrofighters need love too and this potentially awesome class isnt getting enough attention


Alisha says:
whats funny is before the beta i was more interested in whips
Alisha says:
but now slicers are looking pretty sexy

also with the new counter and defend stuff we can speculate more http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

c'mon guys we need to catch up with the acrotecher thread!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-07-09 23:32 ]</font>

[Allison_W]

On 2007-07-09 23:30, Alisha wrote:
bumped because Acrofighters need love too and this potentially awesome class isnt getting enough attention


Alisha says:
whats funny is before the beta i was more interested in whips
Alisha says:
but now slicers are looking pretty sexy

also with the new counter and defend stuff we can speculate more http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

c'mon guys we need to catch up with the acrotecher thread!


You gonna make an AF, or you gonna stay FF/FI?

[AC9breaker]

Slicers are pretty damn fun. Their high attack combined with Acrofighters high attack = good times.

[Alisha]

my beast will stay FF but my chocolate human Fi is going AF. i love cutting up monsters so i have no problem playing multiple hunter types. also im betting acrofighters can tear tengoughs apart with cards.

[Allison_W]

On 2007-07-10 02:08, Alisha wrote:
my beast will stay FF but my chocolate human Fi is going AF. i love cutting up monsters so i have no problem playing multiple hunter types. also im betting acrofighters can tear tengoughs apart with cards.



"Chocolate human" sounds far too delicious.

[Pillan]

Does anyone have the stats for the slicers and shadoogs on the beta as well as the number of hits and range limits of the PA and basic attack? I’d like to see exactly how they’ll compare to other weapons.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Thanks for bumping this thread Alisha, yeah, Acrofighters truly are awesome and they deserve lots of love. So, we now know that the requisites of this class are Level 3 Hunter and level 5 Ranger, which didn't sit too well with me personally, and I still see this class as mostly fighter when you look at the PA distribution. Well, at least I can still call my Human as a pure fighter [RP stuff] since the shadoog does the gunning for him while he's doing mostly melee. The only manual gunning he may do is Cards and maybe pistols, although I'll prefer cards. Cards + Shadoogs = lazy gunner's dream come true. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

But yeah, come AoI, my Human will most definitely retire Fighgunner for Acrofighter. I already have a Fortefighter, and I'll probably make a male Newman to take the spot of Fighgunner.

Since were on the subject of this class, which is a fighter type with the highest evasion of all of the classes, I think we should also talk about the Just Counter thing, since this class will definitely be the class that benefits the most from this. Newman Acrofighters especially will make the most of this new ability IMO since Evasion will never get so high as to never get hit at all, so Newmans will definitely block more than the other races, and thus, they can make the most of the Just Counter thing.

[Pillan]

Are you sure “Just Counter” is going to work that way? I mean, given it was an ability to enhance the hunter play style, which generally has the lowest EVP, I doubt it’s EVP based. To me, it sounds more like a counter attack that automatically cancels the damage rather than an instant shield. If I’m right, that would make it an ATP/ATA based stat, making human and Newman EVP even more useless on any class that decides to use melee weapons.

EDIT:

I take that back; I'd expect it to be based purely on timing and never misses like traps or techniques.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-07-10 10:59 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

why would you consider AF a defensive class? Because it is missing the spear and sword? Did anyone do a calculation of just how much damage a higher level shadoog can do? When paired with a 1 handed weapon, I would think the damage would equal a spear if the fire rate were good - especailly if applying burn/virus/incapacitate.

Gosh, if incapacitate gets up to level 2 or 3, I'm going to want AFs in robot missons more than FGs!

Also:
Higher PP regen (double, it looks like), is actualy better than the 20% reduction in PP cost that fF have, if the regen rate is the same, and you use mostly Yohemi/GRM weapons/certain kubara weapons as The cost of the PA remains static.


For instance, Deljaban blades regen 5 pp per tick, and have great ATP/PP - comparable to a 7/8* weapon, and far easier to grind, if you've got the stones for that. Double that is 10 pp per tick!

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I read that the Just Counter thing is done after you evade something, which I think is a good thing. Either way, if it did depend on EVP, that would be really awesome and bridge the gap between the races a bit.

Oh yeah Solomon, along with Acrofighter's faster PP regen, for all melee classes, there's also that thing where doing a normal attack would regenerate your PP by a small amount, not much, but it does do something. I mean, you're not gonna spam PAs the whole time. Sometimes, you may be against an army of Ageetas, and I'm not wasting PP on them.

[Niloklives]

yeah...AFs stats certainly suggest a defensove class, but with the new announcements regarding melee combat mechanics, their defensive properties will really just make their aggressive side more technical...but their ATP is nothing to sneeze it. what was it...a male newman had about 700atp at 90/10...? put those stat mods on a cast or beast. the evade wouldn't be nearly as high, but I'm willing to bet it would outclass all of our current fighgunners.

The class looks pretty sexy. incapacitate and stun on an auto turret? even the C rank shadoogs had a decent rate of fire. if they shoot faster as their ranks increase...this may be my new favorite melee class. Sabers slicers and claws ahoy!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-10 13:58 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I'll probably give it shot with a Beast. The high ATA mod might help offset beasts ATA 'issues' - and the DFP is onyl 10% off Fortefighter.

plus I think slicers look kewl, and madoogs are 'neat'

[Neith]

I'll be converting my Female Newman FG to a aF come AoI. I seem to remember hearing they attacked faster with Twin Sabers, and some of the new news regarding Just Counter and PP regen just confirmed it that I really want to play this class.

Sange & Yasha, PLEEEEEASSSE

[Niloklives]

yeah the PP regen stuff especially...sounds like this class will never need charges

[Pillan]

Didn't they say all partial classes get higher PP regen than the fortes to balance the .8 consumption when dual wielding? From what I’ve heard, you’d be just as well off as an FG. From what I’ve read on the forum so far, you’re trading less ATP, and less weapons options for more defensive stats, a bit more ATA, and a speed boost in basic attacks.

[Neith]

I'm mainly interested in DFP and the speed attacks though, so aF is a lot more interesting to me.

[Niloklives]

On 2007-07-10 14:07, Pillan wrote:
Didn't they say all partial classes get higher PP regen than the fortes to balance the .8 consumption when dual wielding? From what I’ve heard, you’d be just as well off as an FG. From what I’ve read on the forum so far, you’re trading less ATP, and less weapons options for more defensive stats, a bit more ATA, and a speed boost in basic attacks.



I dunno about that one. It makes little difference to me in the end. one of two things will happen when the expansion hits:

A) The rumors prove true and we get 6-8 character slots total inwhich case I make a new character specifically for AF and keep my FG

B) The rumors prove false and I recreate my FG from scratch with the intent of having her alternate between FG and AF depending on my mood.

I'm fine with either.

[Pillan]

Yeah, I’m honestly having trouble deciding between those 2 classes for my Caseal hunter myself. On one hand, I get more HP and defensive stats, but the DFP difference only amounts to 9 less damage per hit (18 with 41+ deband and a 50% armor). The other defensive differences are significant though. I don’t really care about basic attacks since I have enough PP to skill spam as an FG in a decent team right now. The ATP and ATA differences are so low that I won’t even bother considering them. AF has an advantage in 1 hand S ranks, but that requires getting 1 hand S ranks (I’d rather get 50% 9 stars).

On top of that FG gets crossbows, machineguns, and traps while AF only gains cards and S handguns and shadoogs (a class with 5 levels of RA that can’t use traps?).

I’m leaning more towards AF just for the higher defensive stats myself, since I don’t intend to solo beyond skill leveling. However, I’m still debating. Fortunately AF doesn’t require many (if any) additional PAs, so I could just do both.

[SStrikerR]

i found a vid on youtube showing an acrofighter using twin sabers and twin daggers as well. stfu about links cuz i dont remember it, and since i really dont care im not gonna look for it, but it was comparing the 20% speed against a normal hunter against acrofighter.

[Niloklives]

most of us have seen it, but thanks

[Alisha]

i dont really like how some people are just brushing aside the evp stat of acrofighter. in my opinion humans will make the best overall acrofighters.

100/10 stats lets see if this code works


Human Newman Beast Cast
HP 2364 2106 2615 2470
ATP 838 726 943 871
ATA 424 436 339 469
TP 276 298 201 175
DFP 223 196 219 236
EVP 780 800 685 572
MST 202 304 134 117
STA 12 12 12 12


edit:these stats are for females by the way and the difference between human and cast = lol



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-07-10 18:08 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-07-10 18:10 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

are those males or females?

[Alisha]

females also worth mentioning that human gets a prefered race bonus for both acro types


edit: i dont really care but heres the male stats


Human Newman Beast Cast
HP 2441 2179 2688 2543
ATP 876 762 980 907
ATA 440 452 354 484
TP 267 291 193 158
DFP 214 187 212 228
EVP 751 772 657 542
MST 183 280 138 111
STA 10 10 10 10



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-07-10 18:15 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Wow. That’s a significantly larger class bonus than any other class. Are you sure those numbers are right? That looks like a 6 or 7% ATP racial bonus and, as I stated a long time ago, Beast fF only gets 4%.

Either those numbers are off or ST really wanted human to have a clear advantage at that class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-07-10 18:48 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

yeah no kidding. those numbers are nuts

[Alisha]

to the best of my knowlage the numbers are accurate and i think humans have a bigger than normal type bonus on acro classes.

[Niloklives]

that's insane

[Alisha]

well its nice to have a melee class that casts dont dominate for once.

[Soukosa]

Newmans, beasts, and casts receive a 3% stat bonus to their respective basic and expert classes. Humans get a 2% bonus to all the basic classes and a 3% bonus to all of the hybrids. Newman also gets a 3% bonus to FI, WT, and GT to probably compensate for the lack of special ability. On the beta, humans got a 5% stat bonus to both AF and AT.

With the PP regen, there's essentially three tiers of that for each weapon in AoI. The basic and fortes get tier 2 in their strongest weapon type and tier 1 for everything else. FI and AF get tier 3 for melee and tier 2 for ranged. WT gets tier 3 for melee and tech and tier 1 for ranged. GT gets tier 3 for ranged and tech and tier 1 for melee. AT gets tier 3 for tech, tier 2 for ranged, and tier 1 for melee. PT gets tier 1 for melee and ranged. There is only two tiers for melee in the current version and only one for tech (no class uses tier 1) while ranged as 3 tiers. The main gunner classes get tier 3 and FI gets 2 while everyone else has 1. So FG lost some PP regen in AoI. Tier 3 also got boosted in AoI.

With shadoog damage, I'm not sure if they bugged or what but they weren't doing the damage you'd think they'd do. In fact, I couldn't figure out how they were doing the damage they were. Even if they did the right amount of damage, I wouldn't expect much in the way of damage from them since they do have rather low ATP.

With weapon speed, it was later believed that they don't have faster attack animations but rather a shorter delay between attacks. AT would also have this principle with techs, they don't cast faster, just have a shorter after cast delay. Playing the two classes, they felt very quick and nimble. In a way that you can't really get with the current classes. They are rather specialized around that too with the stats to back up, but with the cost of a very limited weapon selection. All the more of a reason to use a human or even a newman so you can make use of the crea weapon's mulitple target abilities since neither have a quick hitting weapon that can hit multiple targets. AF does slicers but that I don't think that can hit mulitple targets on the same enemy like a spear or sword can.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-07-10 13:58, UrikoBB3 wrote:
I'll be converting my Female Newman FG to a aF come AoI. I seem to remember hearing they attacked faster with Twin Sabers, and some of the new news regarding Just Counter and PP regen just confirmed it that I really want to play this class.

Sange & Yasha, PLEEEEEASSSE



I'm doing the same thing with my human, from FG to aF, and yeah, I'm also begging for Sange & Yasha. I swear, if those ever come out, we'll probably be fighting over them like kids or something.

Although my human is more of a samurai, I think that the Shurahicane [s rank slicer that looks like a Shuriken from the scan that espio posted] looks pretty badass too.

Alisha, I agree with you on the awesomeness of EVP too, its really useful to have, and its not like ATA because you will eventually get enough ATA to not miss, but you can never get enough EVP to never get hit once, just like ATP and HP, higher EVP can't be overkill. I really hope that the stat bonuses that humans get for aF stay that way, it'll be sweet for them to outperform CASTs in a fighter class. But I think Beasts are more dominating of melee than CASTs.

[Pillan]

I wonder if that 5% bonus will be true in the final version. I can’t argue that human isn’t a good choice if they get enough ATP and ATA to keep up with a Cast, enough TP, EVP, and MST to keep up with a Newman, and enough DFP to surpass Beasts, but Newman looks like even more of a gimped human than Cast does. Of course, since class levels max at 30, it still won’t be as much of an issue in the long run.

As for melee attacks: who cares about a 20% speed boost when all your PAs will be in the 160+% range (with multiple attacks) and you have a better weapon recovery speed than any class right now? It is hard to run out of PP with a single dagger as a WT or FG, and it’s not hard to get a 9 star weapon of each element, so why would you ever need to slow down and use the basic attack?


Also, what’s this about EVP being more useful than ATA? It actually seems to have the same issue that ATA does when it’s saturated, which is why you never see a real difference between Cast and Newman blocking as long as they’re the same class. If 200% doesn’t shift that in the current version, why would another 30% have that much of an effect?

From my experimentation, the hit rate seems to look something like ATA/(ATA+EVP/5). If you’re fighting enemies your level, you’re not going to block all that much. We’re looking at 1 in 3 blocked as Newman female versus 1 in 4 blocked as Cast male.


Cast still doesn’t look that bad as an AF: a little more HP, ATP, ATA, and DFP while not taking a significant dive in any of the other stats (the MST looks significant, but who cares about 20 damage less per tech when enemies around your level are dealing 800s?). And, of course, Beast looks even better since the class has no low ATA weapons (unless, of course, slicers and shadoogs are low ATA).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-07-11 06:30 ]</font>

[Neith]

I still don't understand why people hardly use basic attacks as a melee character. Only time I spam PA's constantly is in certain boss battles and to keep things like Goshin knocked over. Aside from that, I tend to use regular attack combo ->PA and repeat that, unless situations change.

At the end of the day, if you're not concerned with EVP, or weapon speed increases, I don't think Acrofighter would be your right class. It's totally geared towards high-speed melee combat, with firearms as backup. I think of it as similar to Fighgunner, but with decent DFP/EVP to make them more survivalists. For that, they sacrifice weapon selection.

I'm also pretty impressed with the stats Alisha posted, definately decided on making a Female Newman aF now. I was originally more hyped about Acrotecher, but not anymore.

[Pillan]

I can’t speak for all hunters when I say this, but my reasoning for supporting PA spam over basic attacks is because a hunter’s basic attack just can’t keep up with a ranger’s attacks from level 21+ bullets, even with 50% weapons. My fighgunner has a saber, dagger, and claw of each element to pair with my crossbows and mechs, so why would I ever want to use basic attacks when I have enough PP to constantly use skills?

It’s no competition, really. Skills have a higher damage modifier and hit a higher number of targets in an equal or faster amount of time. Even if you get a small boost in standard attack speed along with the “Just Attack” bonus and have all 50% Crea weapons, you’re still not going to keep up with someone who just constantly uses skills. I’m more interested in why you don’t rather than why everyone else does.

If you’re concerned with higher HP, DFP, EVP, and MST and prefer dual wielding, then I’d say go with Acrofighter. I agree with you entirely that it’s geared more toward survivability, but I disagree about the EVP deviation between the races and the importance of higher basic attack speed. I’ll definitely play the class, but I’ll play it my way until I see something I prefer.

[Neith]

On 2007-07-11 10:14, Pillan wrote:
It’s no competition, really. Skills have a higher damage modifier and hit a higher number of targets in an equal or faster amount of time. Even if you get a small boost in standard attack speed along with the “Just Attack” bonus and have all 50% Crea weapons, you’re still not going to keep up with someone who just constantly uses skills. I’m more interested in why you don’t rather than why everyone else does.


How many weapons do you carry, and more importantly, how much meseta do you blow on Charges? I carry 15 weapons, and even using PA's when I need too, I burn them out fast because of melee weapons' terrible PP.

Using regular attacks doens't hinder me in any way. When you consider that most PA's have a -Acc modfier, if I PA spammed constantly, I'd just burn out even more, and see notably more 0's. The only weapon I don't use regular attacks on much is Axe, because it's not that great a regular combo. Things like Twin Sabers though I use regular attacks a lot.

I still use PA's a lot, and in higher rank missions, I start to use PA's more and more, but using regular attacks is not only reliable damage, but also allows me to regen PP a little (and will be even more useful in AoI), so I don't burn all my weapons out fast.

Not flaming or anything, I just find it odd that people don't use regular attacks. They're there for a reason, and they help out a lot..

[Niloklives]

I usually skill spam carrying about 10 - 12 weapons total and rarely blow more than even 1 charge

[Pillan]

On 2007-07-11 11:21, UrikoBB3 wrote:
How many weapons do you carry, and more importantly, how much meseta do you blow on Charges? I carry 15 weapons, and even using PA's when I need too, I burn them out fast because of melee weapons' terrible PP.


I generally carry 12-15 melee weapons (sabers, daggers, claws, twin sabers, and twin daggers of the 3 enemy elements in a given area), but I rarely go through more than the 9 single hand. The main reasons for this are probably because I actually use the left hand weapon when it would outperform my skills (e.g., 2 enemies in crossbow range or melee resistant ones) and because it’s very hard to burn through the PP of a YC single dagger.


On 2007-07-11 11:21, UrikoBB3 wrote:
Using regular attacks doens't hinder me in any way. When you consider that most PA's have a -Acc modfier, if I PA spammed constantly, I'd just burn out even more, and see notably more 0's. The only weapon I don't use regular attacks on much is Axe, because it's not that great a regular combo. Things like Twin Sabers though I use regular attacks a lot.


If you use the hit rate estimate I stated above and assume a melee PA has around an 80% accuracy mod and the melee weapon adds around 300 ATA, you’d hit about 81% of the time with a basic attack and 78% of the time with a skill against a level 100 enemy as a male Beast AF at level 100. Now, given the melee PA will have a 160% ATP mod, if we assume the PA and basic attack had the same number of hits and the basic attacks were 20% faster than the skill, you’re still doing around 20% less damage than you would be skill spamming, even with the accuracy consideration.

However, as you know, the average skill gets around 2 or 3 times as many hits as a basic attack in the same amount of time, so you’re really losing out on a lot more.


On 2007-07-11 11:21, UrikoBB3 wrote:
I still use PA's a lot, and in higher rank missions, I start to use PA's more and more, but using regular attacks is not only reliable damage, but also allows me to regen PP a little (and will be even more useful in AoI), so I don't burn all my weapons out fast.

Not flaming or anything, I just find it odd that people don't use regular attacks. They're there for a reason, and they help out a lot..


That’s the main reason why I don’t. I tend to use the regular attacks to finish off a single enemy, but not more often then that. I’ll most likely use basic attacks more in AoI thanks to the “Just Attack” bonus and PP regeneration, but it still won’t be a significant portion of my hunter play style.

But I don’t mean to be rude either. I’m simply explaining my reasoning for my previous statement and proving that skill spamming is an equally acceptable, if not better, strategy to use as an Acrofighter or any other melee class.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I agree that there are normal attacks there for a reason, and they have their uses. Yeah, they may be situational, but yeah, they're useful when you need them. And yeah, its stupid to just spam PAs like a n00b because like Uriko said, you're gonna burn through your weapons and your wallet. Besides, what if you run into a weak enemy like a Polty, an Ageeta, a single Jishagara, or a single targetted monster that's half dead? What, you're gonna waste your PP on something that isn't even a threat?

[SStrikerR]

On 2007-07-10 17:16, NIloklives wrote:
most of us have seen it, but thanks

.....well on the first page of this thread it doesnt say that acrofighters can use twin daggers if u look at it. >_>

[Alisha]

i also think that the just attack concept will make the shorter attack delay a godsend. you will be able to chain a regular combo with a pa as well as regain pp from regular attacks. pa spam fails unless you are leveling a skill.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-07-11 12:19, Shiroryuu wrote:
I agree that there are normal attacks there for a reason, and they have their uses. Yeah, they may be situational, but yeah, they're useful when you need them. And yeah, its stupid to just spam PAs like a n00b because like Uriko said, you're gonna burn through your weapons and your wallet. Besides, what if you run into a weak enemy like a Polty, an Ageeta, a single Jishagara, or a single targetted monster that's half dead? What, you're gonna waste your PP on something that isn't even a threat?




What level are you again?

[Niloklives]

On 2007-07-11 12:19, Shiroryuu wrote:
I agree that there are normal attacks there for a reason, and they have their uses. Yeah, they may be situational, but yeah, they're useful when you need them. And yeah, its stupid to just spam PAs like a n00b because like Uriko said, you're gonna burn through your weapons and your wallet. Besides, what if you run into a weak enemy like a Polty, an Ageeta, a single Jishagara, or a single targetted monster that's half dead? What, you're gonna waste your PP on something that isn't even a threat?



I use at most 2 charges in a mission and I PA spam...1k on charges? Not for nothing but there are MONSTERS that drop enough money to cover my expenses and with missions now giving 10k...20k meseta how can you not afford to PA spam after like...lvl 60? I walk away from most missions with an extra 20k easy...clearly I'm doing something wrong -_-;

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-07-11 15:50, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-07-11 12:19, Shiroryuu wrote:
I agree that there are normal attacks there for a reason, and they have their uses. Yeah, they may be situational, but yeah, they're useful when you need them. And yeah, its stupid to just spam PAs like a n00b because like Uriko said, you're gonna burn through your weapons and your wallet. Besides, what if you run into a weak enemy like a Polty, an Ageeta, a single Jishagara, or a single targetted monster that's half dead? What, you're gonna waste your PP on something that isn't even a threat?




What level are you again?



80, and yeah, I do S2 missions, and even on those, I use my normals on non-threatening things that have one target. Even in S2, there are still weak monsters, at least relatively weak ones, its not like they replace every single enemy with gaozoans and worms.

[Pillan]

On 2007-07-11 05:50, Pillan wrote:
From my experimentation, the hit rate seems to look something like ATA/(ATA+EVP/5). If you’re fighting enemies your level, you’re not going to block all that much. We’re looking at 1 in 3 blocked as Newman female versus 1 in 4 blocked as Cast male.


I was off in that calculation because I thought level 100 enemies had 350 ATA, when they actually have around 250. Ends up regardless of race and gender you’ll block about half the attacks you receive (with TW armor, of course). However, that also means the difference between Newman and Cast is even smaller. (Newman females block 1 more attack than Cast males for every 15 received and that decreases with buffs and debuffs).

But, yeah, turns out EVP is pretty useful on this class.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Hide this from Mikaga, or else he's gonna start crying about Newmans sucking.

[Soukosa]

I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about how EVP works since...
A) We don't likely have the correct value for ATA past lv 20 since the stats past that was changed. ATA and EVP were the hardest of the stats for me to figure out with filling in the gaps and both were set up so they curved at the end before lv 100. Since their plans of taking enemy levels past lv 100 has changed, that's very likely changed, making the stats from the bible even more off. I've checked over HP so far for all levels and that changed alot, so it wouldn't be suprising at all if ATA and EVP changed alot as well.
B) The formula hasn't been proven yet and there's technically no way to prove it since we don't have the absolute values for enemy ATA and EVP. Also, there's some issues with it which I realized after looking over it.

[Pillan]

On 2007-07-13 18:26, Sounomi wrote:
B) The formula hasn't been proven yet and there's technically no way to prove it since we don't have the absolute values for enemy ATA and EVP. Also, there's some issues with it which I realized after looking over it.


What are the issues? I’d like to go over those to make a better model. Answer that in the hit rate thread I started so that we don’t stray from the AF topic.

But even with whatever inaccuracies it contains, I am confident enough to say the deviation between Cast and Newman won’t be all that noticeable for the same reason you can’t really tell the difference between Cast and Beast ATA as an fG with the Phantom/line set. It may be off, but it’s not far off enough to say the deviation could be huge.

[Alisha]

On 2007-07-13 18:46, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-07-13 18:26, Sounomi wrote:
B) The formula hasn't been proven yet and there's technically no way to prove it since we don't have the absolute values for enemy ATA and EVP. Also, there's some issues with it which I realized after looking over it.


What are the issues? I’d like to go over those to make a better model. Answer that in the hit rate thread I started so that we don’t stray from the AF topic.

But even with whatever inaccuracies it contains, I am confident enough to say the deviation between Cast and Newman won’t be all that noticeable for the same reason you can’t really tell the difference between Cast and Beast ATA as an fG with the Phantom/line set. It may be off, but it’s not far off enough to say the deviation could be huge.



your also ignoring the fact that anyone can use a zodial buff item wich widens the gap even more. a newman can have almost 1k evasion before factoring in armor.
800 x 1.15 = 920
800 x 1.2 = 960

572 x 1.15 = 657
572 x 1.2 = 686

even beast has 100+ more evp than cast



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-07-13 22:21 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-07-13 22:18, Alisha wrote:
your also ignoring the fact that anyone can use a zodial buff item wich widens the gap even more. a newman can have almost 1k evasion before factoring in armor.
800 x 1.15 = 920
800 x 1.2 = 960

572 x 1.15 = 657
572 x 1.2 = 686

even beast has 100+ more evp than cast


No. I took that into account when I said that gap decreases with buffs and debuffs. It’s a consequence of the general ratio equation (assuming that is how it works, of course): it requires more and more EVP to become noticeable, thus decreasing the gap between Newman and Cast. You’re already dodging nearly half the time, so you’re not really going to notice much more than that. The 7% gap I calculated decreases to a bit more than 6% when you use Zodial/Zodeel 41+.

But we’ll just have to see what happens with the release. That and there’s always the chance that they did increase enemy ATA by like 50 or more, which would make Newman block significantly more but the AF class as a whole would suffer dodging less than half the time.

[Alisha]

newly reported changes to our beloved acrofighter

AcroFighter qualities:

-Require HU3 RA5 to access
-Attack Speed is fastest of all classes
-PA skill limits are 40SA 30BA
-Access to the following weapons:
At S-Grade:

Saber
Dagger
Claw
Slicer
Handgun
Shadoog

At A-Grade:

Knuckles
Twin Dagger
Twin Saber
Twin Claw
Twin Handgun
Cards

female knuckle combo + increased attack speed = own



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2007-07-14 01:34 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

he's right that we'll see a pretty big taper effect on evp...the question is just how big...even if we don't have exact values, compare evasion rates on a cast and newman of the same class now..the compare the cast and newman in extreme cases. as a cast FG 80/10 I block almost as often as a newman FT 80/10...as the numbers go up, the evasion rate does indeed seem to go down...or rather...it doesn't grow substantially.

So we may not have an equation yet...but we can certainly make educated speculations as to how big a difference those higher number will actually make....but as it's been said many times before, we won't know for certain til we see it for ourselves

[Sekani]

As a CAST fighgunner, the faster attack speed of this class at first sounded interesting; however with the recent (or upcoming, depending on console) nerf to enemy speed in S/S2 missions, I wonder how vital that'll be anymore.

Also I have to echo the concerns about how valuable those big EVP numbers are in actual gameplay. I'm blocking roughly one out of every eight attacks right now as a CAST fighgunner; will I notice a drastic difference if I switch to acrofighter?

On paper it just doesn't look like I'm getting much in exchange for the gimped weapon selection. I'm still keeping an eye on this class though.

[Parn]

Here's the thing about EVP... as a figunner, your EVP modifier at class level 10 is 90%. Acrofighter on the other hand, has a 230% modifier, outclassing even fortetechers. You're more than doubling your EVP stat. Now also consider that practically no one in this game gears themselves for evasion, because it isn't practical right now. People equip armor and units that maximize their DFP and focus on elemental units that multiply that DFP.

As an acrofighter or acrotecher, instead of equipping Youmei and GRM armor, the focus should be on Tenora Works armor. A Yamata-Senba has 170 DFP and 182 EVP. A Rabol Asted on the other hand, has 115 DFP and 278 EVP. That's a difference of 96 EVP. If I were to put it in another perspective, imagine leveling your current character enough times to get 96 more EVP. You know how you block a lot more when you have a few levels of advantage with our current low EVP fighters, so you can imagine the performance difference with this kind of adjustment. Now stack even more EVP in there with a Tero/Legs for 66 more EVP.

Acrofighter is going to be sick, if you ask me. I'm going to abuse the hell out of the incoming counterattack system. We won't be the strongest, but we sure as hell will be one of the most survivable classes.

Edit: Also note that Tero/Legs is a B rank EVP item. Consider how much more EVP an A rank or S rank unit could offer. And consider level 40 support techs incoming. Exciting stuff!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Parn on 2007-07-14 14:22 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

Orpad / Legs should add 120 EVP. It should also be noted that the EVP advantage of tenora shields over the others goes up as the rarity does.

[Alisha]

behold the power of cheese! i mean mspaint and irfanview.

http://apocalypse-tribe.com/hive/alishas/images/acrofighter.png

[AC9breaker]

On 2007-07-14 13:45, Sekani wrote:
Also I have to echo the concerns about how valuable those big EVP numbers are in actual gameplay. I'm blocking roughly one out of every eight attacks right now as a CAST fighgunner; will I notice a drastic difference if I switch to acrofighter?




Yes, you will notice a difference.
I totally felt the change coming from a main Protranser on US server
and switching From ranger 5 on the beta.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

IMO it looks like Acrofigther got more buffed than nerfed. The limited weaponry may have been a good justification of the stats that Acrofighter had IMO.

[mll]

I'd disagree about being buffed. Your not going to be using twin handed weapons against anything other than bosses surely. I'd much rather have had one s-rank twin handed weapon than 4 a-ranks.
But i didnt play the beta so what do i know.

[Sterisk]

How do you become an acrofighter?

[Neith]

They lost S-Rank Twin Sabers? Bleh.

Still looks nice enough I guess, attack speed increase on some of those weapons will be sick.

[DreamLocke]

Meh, Twin sabers just get me smacked in the face a lot. Man, AF sounds good for my future fem-CAST. She's going to remind me of my sweet, sweet HUcaseal. God I miss her...yeah stats wise she was the crap at hunter, but man she looked awesome.

[Akaimizu]

What a shame they lost the S-rank Sabers, if this is true. Still, Mufonna is going to double as an Acrofighter. It's still something I can see that character just becoming (as she gets indicted into the Six Square Circus).

Still, I do enjoy using Twin Sabers with her. It just feels right. Of course, being able to use S rank Single claws (a fan favorite) isn't bad at all. It's also probably really popular for all those "I wanna be a *classic* arch villain" kind of people with that flashy Single-claw.

"I'll get that President, if it's the last thing I do! Muuaaahaaa haaa!!"

I guess we'll just have to pretend that Shadoog is a cat (if we can't get a cat-looking one) and call it "Mr. Bigglesworth" so we can pet it. Not eat it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-07-16 12:02 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, now that I think of it, I'm not too sad about this because its not like I'll ever even GET an S rank twin saber. I mean, yeah, they look cool, but I don't think I'll ever get one.

[Akaimizu]

I have a feeling, by the time we're far enough in AoI, S rank Twin Sabers will probably be common enough to be a bit easier to get. Unlike the Special Units (PP/Save and the like) and limited S-ranks of today.

[SolomonGrundy]

why do Arcofighters get cards when there is no FO in thier pre-reqs?

Why do Arcotechers get twin handguns when thier is no ranger in thier pre-reqs?

also, I suspect the arco classes will be changed again before AoI is released. I'll say this about ATs: Figunners eclipse them the damaging side: level 30 crossbow (SE3), & traps. Unless S rank shadoogs have SE4 effects.

[pionear]

And I thought they should be able to to use SRank Swords...Now I don't think I will use this class.

I'll just stick to Fighgunner.

[Neith]

On 2007-07-16 17:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Figunners eclipse them the damaging side: level 30 crossbow (SE3), & traps. Unless S rank shadoogs have SE4 effects.



Acrofighter= Defensive Hunter.
Fighgunner= Damage dealer.
Fortefighter= Bit of both, I guess.

[Alisha]

On 2007-07-16 17:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
why do Arcofighters get cards when there is no FO in thier pre-reqs?

Why do Arcotechers get twin handguns when thier is no ranger in thier pre-reqs?

also, I suspect the arco classes will be changed again before AoI is released. I'll say this about ATs: Figunners eclipse them the damaging side: level 30 crossbow (SE3), & traps. Unless S rank shadoogs have SE4 effects.



who cares shadoogs effectively have infinate PP. wich should have the beneficial effect of photon chargers having the maximum effect on your right handed weapon.

shadoogs have 0/0 PP plus i hate crossbows they fire really slow if i want a spread weapon ill use FG for shotguns.

[HaydenX]

I agree that the requirements for the new classes should be changed to like:

Acrofighter: 5 Hunter, 3 ranger, 2 force
Acrotecher: 5 Force, 3 hunter, 2 ranger

This would make everything make sense.
Maybe give a-rank bows to the Acrofighter and give the acrotecher back lvl. 30 bullets and S-Rank mechgun.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HaydenX on 2007-07-16 23:12 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HaydenX on 2007-07-16 23:13 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

I say combine acrotecher and acrofighter to make Numan. 'course, all the guns and bullet arts have to go.

[Soukosa]

On 2007-07-16 17:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
also, I suspect the arco classes will be changed again before AoI is released. I'll say this about ATs: Figunners eclipse them the damaging side: level 30 crossbow (SE3), & traps. Unless S rank shadoogs have SE4 effects.


On 2007-07-16 23:11, HaydenX wrote:
I agree that the requirements for the new classes should be changed to like:

Acrofighter: 5 Hunter, 3 ranger, 2 force
Acrotecher: 5 Force, 3 hunter, 2 ranger

This would make everything make sense.
Maybe give a-rank bows to the Acrofighter and give the acrotecher back lvl. 30 bullets and S-Rank mechgun.


Notice how everyone that makes suggestions or predictions for how classes should be changed/will be changed have no idea how they even work?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I kind of like the Acro classes how they are. I personally felt that the weapon distribution for Acrofighter may have been better off the way it was before because now as I see it, it seems to have been buffed when the intention seemed to be to nerf it. I don't think that Acrofighters should get longbows because they're too slow when Acrofighters were meant to be fast weapon users.

[Niloklives]

not to mention giving them that kind of range plus defense piercing plus SE 4 with their ATP...this sounds rather game breaking.


AF + Bows = fail



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-18 18:29 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I agree. A longbow doesn't really belong in a class with such high ATP. Either way though, I hear that some Shadoogs can get up to SE 3, which is enough to infect some of the big guys, and if it still can infect big monsters, then I'm sure that's enough.

[Pillan]

On 2007-07-17 07:41, Shiroryuu wrote:
Yeah, I agree. A longbow doesn't really belong in a class with such high ATP. Either way though, I hear that some Shadoogs can get up to SE 3, which is enough to infect some of the big guys, and if it still can infect big monsters, then I'm sure that's enough.



To burn, not to infect. Infection requires SE 4 to hit large mobs.

I'd say they're pretty balanced in terms of SE if that's the case, besides the lack of traps.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-07-17 08:01 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, burn is good enough I guess. As a Fighgunner, I use burn traps and I'm satisfied with that. I'm sure that I'll be good with a SE 3 burn shadoog too, if such a thing will even exist, but Sounomi did tell me that there are SE 3 shadoogs, so yeah.

[Alisha]

dont you think traps would be counter productive to Acrofighter? its single handed weapon forte means it wont need to change weapons often except maybe to match elements.

[SolomonGrundy]

Notice how everyone that makes suggestions or predictions for how classes should be changed/will be changed have no idea how they even work?

Notice how all the classes that use cards have Force in the pre reqs.
Notice how all the classes that have twin handgun access have ranger?

You might have a point about people not knowing how a class plays, but with regard to my specific question you are just being beligerent.

[Zorafim]

Believe it or not, I'd dislike playing acrofighter if it got traps. First off, it'll tell me that acrofighter is a ranger job, which would sadden me. Secondly, I don't want to learn how to play a new style in my old age, I just want to get strait to huntering. Besides, aren't shadoogs all about status anyway?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I agree that Acrofighters don't really need traps, and Shadoogs give SEs too, so why do we really even need them? IMO Acrofighters with traps really won't make much sense, and I like the class the way it is right now.
Even though to tell truth, losing those S rank Twin Sabers was really painful, even if will be used situationally

[Pillan]

On 2007-07-19 00:16, Zorafim wrote:
First off, it'll tell me that acrofighter is a ranger job, which would sadden me.

You do realize AF requires 5 RA and 3 HU... Right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Lol, true. But yeah, I would be saddened if Acrofighter would be considered as a Ranger, especially with the word 'fighter' in the name with no hint of it being a gunner. If they made this class Hunter 3 and Ranger 5, I thought it would have been appropriate to make Acrotecher Hunter 5 and Force 3. I mean, Wartecher is more Hunter, and its Force 5 and Hunter 3. But still, we don't really need traps too much IMO, shadoogs are good enough for SEs, which can go up to SE 3 or so I heard. It will be a problem though it we fight a burn resistant enemy...

[HaydenX]

On 2007-07-17 02:07, Sounomi wrote:

On 2007-07-16 17:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
also, I suspect the arco classes will be changed again before AoI is released. I'll say this about ATs: Figunners eclipse them the damaging side: level 30 crossbow (SE3), & traps. Unless S rank shadoogs have SE4 effects.


On 2007-07-16 23:11, HaydenX wrote:
I agree that the requirements for the new classes should be changed to like:

Acrofighter: 5 Hunter, 3 ranger, 2 force
Acrotecher: 5 Force, 3 hunter, 2 ranger

This would make everything make sense.
Maybe give a-rank bows to the Acrofighter and give the acrotecher back lvl. 30 bullets and S-Rank mechgun.


Notice how everyone that makes suggestions or predictions for how classes should be changed/will be changed have no idea how they even work?


Notice how the classes have changed since you played?

Yes we are going to make educated guesses based upon the information we currently have available. Assuming that the fortefighter did not yet exist, but we were able to view what they were capable of using, I believe we would have a pretty accurate idea of what to expect. Same case here.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-07-19 17:55, Shiroryuu wrote:
Lol, true. But yeah, I would be saddened if Acrofighter would be considered as a Ranger, especially with the word 'fighter' in the name with no hint of it being a gunner. If they made this class Hunter 3 and Ranger 5, I thought it would have been appropriate to make Acrotecher Hunter 5 and Force 3. I mean, Wartecher is more Hunter, and its Force 5 and Hunter 3.

Um? says you. Wartecher has he second highest TP in the game, the second highest techs, and the second lowest ATP, and the lowest melee skills of skill users (gunners not included).

Just because everyone is a newman fortetecher so they do l33t damage does not mean WTs are not a teching class. I tech all the live-long day.

[Niloklives]

WT reqs will likely change in AoI if At is taking their rews now. I mean I cnan'y promise that , but I'm speculating that such will be the case.

[SolomonGrundy]

I expect WTs techs will go to 30. All of them. even if that does not happen though, DoT grossness (damfoie/dammegid) and general tech grossness means WTs can always lean on techs for damage.

[Alisha]

whatever WT is one of the few hybrids because whether you use mainly techs or melee depends largly on your race. also you cant directly compare tp and ATP like that. TP = single strikes, ATP = multiple strikes

[Niloklives]

it's more than just that. the new melee system is going to open the flood gates for variable play styles

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-07-19 23:39, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-07-19 17:55, Shiroryuu wrote:
Lol, true. But yeah, I would be saddened if Acrofighter would be considered as a Ranger, especially with the word 'fighter' in the name with no hint of it being a gunner. If they made this class Hunter 3 and Ranger 5, I thought it would have been appropriate to make Acrotecher Hunter 5 and Force 3. I mean, Wartecher is more Hunter, and its Force 5 and Hunter 3.

Um? says you. Wartecher has he second highest TP in the game, the second highest techs, and the second lowest ATP, and the lowest melee skills of skill users (gunners not included).

Just because everyone is a newman fortetecher so they do l33t damage does not mean WTs are not a teching class. I tech all the live-long day.



Actually, says alot of the people here, I kind of spoke from my ass there and I'm not rly too sure on it myself.

[SolomonGrundy]

if you make a Cast or Beast WT, then I'm not surprised the focus is more on melee

[Realmz]

i have a cast WT right now, using techs for healing and buffs (and foie spam on thsoe nasty tech only mobs) i was debating AF until they got twin daggers and claws as those are some favorites of mine as well.

i'm definatly going AF now, just gotta get me a good ground shadoog and a good fire one and i'm set...

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Man, the Acrotecher got revived from the dead, yet Acrofighter didn't? Blasphemy! Acrofighters need some love too. Well, Shadoogs rely on TP for damage now, and Acrofighter seems to have quite a high TP mod, a bit higher than Acrotecher I think since Male Human AF has more TP than Female Human AT according to this link:
http://psu.fei-yen.jp/wiki/html/A5CDA5C3A5C8A5EFA1BCA5AFA5E2A1BCA5C92FC0EFC6AEA5BF A5A4A5D72FA5B9A5C6A1BCA5BFA5B9.html#l96957e7

So yeah, ltes keep it alive guys.

[Pillan]

Second highest DFP, highest EVP, second highest TP, high STA, moderate MST, moderate ATA (high for a hunter), and mid-high ATP (slightly more than fG). It looks like the HP is a bit lower than WT though. They have access to damage, burn, poison, and infection basic and G traps. And humans get their ridiculous bonus as the class.

Shadoogs changed to be TP based and their SEs and SE levels were changed (only S Shadoogs have stun, etc.).

What else is there to say? It’s pretty straightforward, like all hunter classes. Only major difference is more EVP.

[SolomonGrundy]

Well, to be honest, AF needed something to compete with FiGunner - especially since FiGs got level 30 bullers with crossbow.

AF + traps + skill/save is probably better than a fortefighter.

Buten for the easy mobs
Rising crush/strike for the more difficult mobs.
Shadoogs for supplemental SEs.

Are they still giving AF the improved attack speed?

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-07 20:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Are they still giving AF the improved attack speed?


Yep. Both Acro- classes have increased melee attack speed. Still haven't heard whether or not this speed increase was extended to PAs though.

It's kind of unfortunate that the only weapons where I'd want increased basic attack speed are whips, swords, spears, and double sabers, since they multi-hit. AF can't equip any of those, but human and Newman can extend that concept to Crea weapons.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-07 20:29 ]</font>

[Alisha]

how does AF with cards compare to fg with crossbow.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-07 21:38, Alisha wrote:
how does AF with cards compare to fg with crossbow.



vs an enemy like jarba, cards are superior. for spreading SE, there is nothing better than crossbows. If I could only have 1, it would be xbows

[Alisha]

if i wanted to spread SE's id level a ranger. as an AF id never shoot something with the intention of landing a SE unless it was resistant to melee and ranged. on that note it would be interesting if shadogs count as magical damage.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I'm a bit curious about the Crossbow vs. Cards debate, because then, I might think of giving up Fighgunner for my main and just keep him as Acrofighter and Fortefighter.

[Pillan]

Cards have a significantly higher accuracy and attack multiplier, along with significantly higher accuracy on the weapon and class, and a slightly lower attack on the weapon and the class. I’d put my bet on card damage easily.

Personally, I’d say the ability to fire a controlled SE 3 x 3 sounds more appealing than letting a Shadoog fire a 3 bullet SE 3 burst or single shot of penetrating SE 4 (aside from the SEs crossbows don’t have, obviously).

But Fighgunners can always pull out the even higher accuracy machineguns if they really want to keep up with the card damage. And neither class is really going to use range damage for anything beyond SE spam and melee resistant enemies.

Of course the thing I hate most about the class is it can’t use any low accuracy weapons and the base accuracy isn’t high enough to tell the difference between Beast and Cast with those weapons. So it’s the first entirely accuracy independent class (even fT needs accuracy to equip cards and bows), making Cast and Newman both look even more like gimped humans.


To me, AF is just FG minus damage and plus speed and survivability. I’ll most likely play both, but FG is more appealing in general.

[-Ryuki-]

Woo, awesome. Basically the FiGunner class, but trade in your Double Sabers and Xbows for Cards and Shadoogs. Looking forward to this class on my CAST.

[Pillan]

Just so you know, FG gets A Shadoogs. You're just trading mechs, crossbows, double sabers, spears, and swords for cards if you don't consider rank limitations.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, I don't think that CASTs and Newmans being gimped Humans will prevent people from playing them as Acrofighters. Beast Acrofighter seems a bit interesting, especially since I don't see anyone going this route. I read a thread saying that they'll be the best, although Female Beast only has 90 more ATP than Male Human, but seriously, I don't really care much about 90 ATP when I have like 1174 ATP at 110/15, and I still have more EVP and TP.

Peronally though, I see my Human using Cards more than using Mechguns, since Mechs don't really look right on a Samurai like Shiro, and Cards are more suited to us lazy gunners, and they own flying stuff too, without having to FPS (like I say, I'm a lazy Ranger, I suck at FPSing, and I prefer to move around when using ranged). I also like the faster melee attacks, which really suits my Human who's supposed to be a speedy fighter.

I guess that with AF, you get faster melee attacks, higher TP for your Shadoog, higher EVP while FI gets a wider selection of weapons and traps. I say pick which you prefer.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-08 19:44, Shiroryuu wrote:
Beast Acrofighter seems a bit interesting, especially since I don't see anyone going this route. I read a thread saying that they'll be the best, although Female Beast only has 90 more ATP than Male Human, but seriously, I don't really care much about 90 ATP when I have like 1174 ATP at 110/15, and I still have more EVP and TP.


Never compare male to female, as that skews the deviation.

Beasts have around 139 more ATP and 446 less TP. On the JP wiki, it states that Shadoogs fire once every 3 seconds and A ranks have a 3 shot burst, so that TP difference only comes up once every 1 second. The average skill attacks once every half second, so even if you’re only fighting a single enemy, the beast ATP wins if the skill mod is higher than 160%. If you’re fighting more than 1 enemy, the beast ATP always wins.

Of course you can always say “I don’t care about being marginally faster”, but we’re just talking about who’s better at what.

And, yeah, humans have slightly more DFP and more EVP, but less HP. So, let’s say human AF blocks 5% more than Beast. If the enemy is dealing 400 damage each attack, the human is receiving 20 less from EVP and 1 less from DFP, so the human still dies in 16 or so hits, just like the Beast.


So, I’d argue Beast and human have a clear dominance at this class, but that’s not going to stop everyone from playing the class, obviously.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-09 11:30 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I have a Human who is going to switch between Protranser, and AF. There is significant carry over (fists, sabers, pistols).

Really the only reason to use PT is traps and Bows. PTs don't have the accuracy to use GL or shotgun, and lack level 40 skills they need to stay competive in melee (lowest ATP of any of the melee classes, even Post AoI).

AFs, on the other hand, have first rate stats AND access to traps (except EX traps), as well as tolerable weapon selection. Not to mention thier ATA mod is so high, you can use Solid Power / S

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, the Beast dude AF stats got posted right now, so now we can see a better comparison.

Male Human:
HP: 2773
ATP: 1174
ATA: 532
TP: 1603
DFP: 283
EVP: 876
MST: 250

Male Beast:
HP: 3053
ATP: 1313
ATA: 428
TP: 1157
DFP: 280
EVP: 768
MST: 174

So yeah, I think the DFP mind as well be the same because, seriously, 3 DFP looks like nothing. 280 more HP looks more like something IMO. Then there's EVP, Humans are better at that, but we'll have to see for ourselves how much we can rely on it, especially on a class that has the best EVP of all classes, and they'll do signifigantly more damage w/ their Shadoogs and their melee not that much weaker. I guess lastibility depends on how much you trust your EVP, but even then, you can easily restore your HP w/ the Card frag PA. Beasts also have their nanoblast.

[Itsuki]

I think there might be a little bit of a misunderstanding here:

AF can use ONLY damage dealing traps. That means:

Damage Traps
Burn Traps
Poison Traps
Virus Traps

And the G-versions of those.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-10-09 12:17, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, the Beast dude AF stats got posted right now, so now we can see a better comparison.

Male Human:
HP: 2773
ATP: 1174
ATA: 532
TP: 1603
DFP: 283
EVP: 876
MST: 250

Male Beast:
HP: 3053
ATP: 1313
ATA: 428
TP: 1157
DFP: 280
EVP: 768
MST: 174

So yeah, I think the DFP mind as well be the same because, seriously, 3 DFP looks like nothing. 280 more HP looks more like something IMO. Then there's EVP, Humans are better at that, but we'll have to see for ourselves how much we can rely on it, especially on a class that has the best EVP of all classes, and they'll do signifigantly more damage w/ their Shadoogs and their melee not that much weaker. I guess lastibility depends on how much you trust your EVP, but even then, you can easily restore your HP w/ the Card frag PA. Beasts also have their nanoblast.



TP is key with shadoog, which will be my main offhand weapon, so I like that I made a human just for this class!

THE JACKEL

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-09 15:19, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I think there might be a little bit of a misunderstanding here:

AF can use ONLY damage dealing traps. That means:

Damage Traps
Burn Traps
Poison Traps
Virus Traps

And the G-versions of those.



I can't remember the last time I saw someone use a trap that wasn't one of these. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Itsuki]

I see Paralysis, confusion, and freeze traps pretty often.... >.> Perhaps its just you crazy US players that only care about damage. Theres other things that can make the party move more efficiently through an area besides more damage.

[Dragwind]

On 2007-10-09 16:16, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I see Paralysis, confusion, and freeze traps pretty often.... >.> Perhaps its just you crazy US players that only care about damage. Theres other things that can make the party move more efficiently through an area besides more damage.



Truth.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Oh, so we CAN use traps. Well, burn and virus sound good, but I dunno, sux that we can't use confusion, shock, or silence.

[Bitey]

Cards have a significantly higher accuracy and attack multiplier, along with significantly higher accuracy on the weapon and class, and a slightly lower attack on the weapon and the class. I’d put my bet on card damage easily.

But cards have a significantly lower attack speed than crossbows. Crossbows shoot 80 times a minute but Cards only shoot 60, that means that Crossbows can land 60 extra hits a minute that Cards cannot. An outright single hit, Cards will win, but over time Crossbows still blow them away.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-09 16:16, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I see Paralysis, confusion, and freeze traps pretty often.... >.> Perhaps its just you crazy US players that only care about damage. Theres other things that can make the party move more efficiently through an area besides more damage.


We use guns for defensive statuses. Traps would be good in an emergency if you happened to be RIGHT THERE and there wasn't a couple seconds of lag before you could drop and detonate the stupid thing.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Post lag

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-10-10 14:23 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Post lag　

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-10-10 08:24 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I use earth crossbows on things like vandas and olgomons that have dangerous magic and can't do anything without their techs (seriously, Vanda Mehra's and Olgohmon's melee is just a total joke).

[SolomonGrundy]

During firebeak some people used confuse traps on the buffed olgohmons. Shock does not work on anything you want shocked.
Ice is pretty situational too, since it breaks with melee or ranged atacks.

I have *never* seen a silence trap used. the silence would have to be permanent or something.

I love the *idea* of traps, but enemy HP, the underwhelming nature of some status effects, and the cost the traps themselves are detriments. EX traps seems to solve thhis issue to some extent. I see ice EX traps as game changing events...making hard rooms easy.

[panzer_unit]

Trap status effects don't last nearly long enough for what a break from your offensive rythm they are, and the time it takes to drop safely and let an enemy walk over 'em (or risk from running up and dropping the trap at the target's feet) ... solo, a Freeze Trap G doesn't even last long enough for me to switch weapons to something good and make use of the auto hits.

I thought Burn was the only known EX trap.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-10 11:26, panzer_unit wrote:
Trap status effects don't last nearly long enough for what a break from your offensive rythm they are, and the time it takes to drop safely and let an enemy walk over 'em (or risk from running up and dropping the trap at the target's feet) ... solo, a Freeze Trap G doesn't even last long enough for me to switch weapons to something good and make use of the auto hits.

I thought Burn was the only known EX trap.



I have seen a link that shows an ice EX trap. It's horrifying. Frozen.Frozen.Frozen

EDIT: here it IS...
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=154968&forum=20&start=165
horrrrrrrifying, right?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-10-10 12:26 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Wow, those EX traps look pretty awesome. I guess its rightful that PTs get them exclusively, those things looks powerful as hell. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

[Rizen]

I was asked to share my experience as a Acrofighter here to help give some insight on the class.

First and foremost, Acrofighter is "Just" awesome. Cheesy pun eh? Well, its no laughing matter when you start to see how fast you can deal damage and the rate you can recover PP. As some of you know, Just Attack and Just Counter regenerates PP on every Successful hit on an enemy. Not only that, your hits will become critical if you make contact. Sweet right? It gets better. Imagine being able to use those ability with the speed bonus of Saber and Twin Saber. All this combined will make you a demolition machine allowing you to pump Just Attack combo into PA combo high rates, doing massive damage while at the same time regenerating PP.

Drooling yet? I'm not done. Many people are worried about the weapon selection of Acrofighter. I will ensure you that is not a problem at all. Slicers...where do I begin? They are just too sweet. Not only are they are a ranged weapon, but a ranged weapon for melee! They hit multiple targets much like a Laser Cannon does, but its much more flexible in movement and wider range. You can say that as long as you have the enemy in view and a target indicator on it, it will home in on the enemy target, but won't bounce to another enemy across the room like in PSO (sorry!). Don't let that get you down, the PA well more than makes up for that. I nicknamed the Slicer PA "The Hallway Sweeper" because thats exactly what it does. It shoots huge bursts of beams straight ahead at high speeds. If you are able to gather enemy in a narrow passage or even in a corner, you can easily make quick work of them by repeatedly blasting them with this PA. Very brilliant weapon indeed.

What can be better than a Slicer? Slicers with Cards! Thats right! With the ability to get bullets to lv 30, you can make the most out of Cards SE effects while still maintaining your Slicer! With Cards and Slicer in hand, you can let out a flurry of Bullets to keep enemies in place until you line yourself up for a Slicer Combo. Imagine if you had Virus Cards? Your damage output will shoot through the roof!

How bout them Sabers? Never thought much of One-handed weapons before? Think again! Believe it or not, Sabers will probably be your highest damaging weapon next to Slicer. Reason? One major thing everyone looks over is the fact that Sabers actually have really high ATP. It may not have as many hits as some of the more popular weapons, but I can assure you that each hit makes up for it. Also, as stated before, Acrofighters get a speed bonus for Sabers. This is a huge factor when it comes to comboing with Acrofighters. The speed bonus allows you to use Just Attack that much more and it even effects your PA (at least I believe so). With PA's like Rising Strike, you can keep an enemy pinned down for a very long time while dealing out quick damage. So think next time when you decide against using Sabers!


I think I went on long enough for now. I will post again later with more of my experience of Acrofighter later. I will upload some more videos into my Photobucket to show some of the things I am talking about so you get a better idea of how Acrofigther works.

For now, I have a few clips of when I was a lower level playing Acrofighter. Enjoy!
http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc299/RizenAoI/Video/

[Pillan]

That does bring up a good question…

Can anyone confirm whether or not the melee speed bonuses that the Acro- classes have effects Photon Arts? (Gut instinct still says no.)

Also are there any melee weapons that aren’t effected by the speed bonus in either class?

[Rizen]

Atm, I am playing Wartecher and I can almost confirm that the speed bonus does effect PA's. I will have to switch back to Acrofighter to test again.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Thanks Rizen. Awesome post. About the cards, the one thing PA I'm really stoked about getting the most is the healing card bullet, since Acrofighters are the only class that can use cards but don't have access to resta, so they can make the best advantage of this.

[PJ]

I can't imagine them making that PA very useful. If you're at a DESPERATE low health, and you need HP, cards will not be hitting enemies fast enough to be getting that HP to save you.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I've been thinking of that. But I'm sure it can at least saves you a few mates.

[PJ]

It'll be much better if you're at like, mid-HP range, and you just don't want to be in the, "Danger zone," but in that, "Danger zone," you'll want to use a trimate/good force healing you.

I say good force, because... there are so many bad ones http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif Not the point of the topic XD

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, you're right. In an emergency, I'll much prefer a trimate or a good force, and yeah, there are quite a few sucky forces out there too (like me). But yeah, I'm totally using the cards during my mid-HP crises as it'll save me those mates if I'm soloing and or partying w/o a good force.

[Kimil]

Does the Speed boost only effect Saber Class weps? =/ Not the Claws or Daggers?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I hear that it affected ALL weapons. Can anyone clarify this? I'm really hoping it applies to all of the melee weapons that AF can use.

[ashley50]

the speed boost applies to all the Melee weapons that AFs can use

[Rizen]

Hmm...I didn't notice a speed bonus with Daggers when I was using them, but I'm sure you know more about the class than I do. I guess I will try it out for myself.

[SolomonGrundy]

The more I think about it, the less sense AF makes.

1. Access to cards, but no force levels required
2. R5, required, but no access to rifle, shotguns, or machine guns (all of which can be used by the ranger class)
3. Impressive DFP stat...better than FiG?
4. Virus Trap access, so wrong...so very wrong

This job seems more like H5/R3 or H5/R4/F3

[Nyreal]

I think this information should be included somewhere in the first post:

AF 10:
HP: 124%
ATP: 124%
ATA: 130%
TP: 136%
DFP: 140%
EVP: 230%
MST: 100%
STA: 120%

and an updated SS of the weapons:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/ashley_riot/05.jpg

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-10-14 02:03, SolomonGrundy wrote:
The more I think about it, the less sense AF makes.

1. Access to cards, but no force levels required
2. R5, required, but no access to rifle, shotguns, or machine guns (all of which can be used by the ranger class)
3. Impressive DFP stat...better than FiG?
4. Virus Trap access, so wrong...so very wrong

This job seems more like H5/R3 or H5/R4/F3



Well, I think the only reason this class is Ranger 5 and Hunter 3 is because FI is already Hunter 5, Ranger 3 and I think Sega wanted variety in requirements, and just ran out of ideas and put R5, H3. I like that it doesn't have Rifles and Shotguns too, those will make even less sense on an Acro. As for high DFP, well, the class is supposed to be like a tank. And I dunno what to say about the Virus traps. But yeah, its obvious that the class is more Hunter than Ranger despite its requirements, but I like it this way. I guess the Acros are wierd in the way they are with requirements and weapon distribution. Acrotecher is level 5 Force and level 3 Ranger, but it has S ranks at blade weapons and the only guns they S rank at is Cards and Pistols.

[Xencia]

They only used that req because FighGunner already was Hu5/Ra3. Same with AcroTech, it used to have the same req as WarTech, but they changed it so it wouldn't overlap(Though they should've just changed WarTech to Hu5/Fo3). And AT has 2 s-rank guns compared to 3 s-rank melee weapons. Much like Protranser, they just decided for the reqs to just not make much sense, so that they could have more variety to them.

[Nyreal]

It doesn't matter, really. I decided to just get to five in everything so I could abuse the hybrid classes. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I actually did the same thing w/ my female Newman when I started her and wanted to make her an Acrotecher. I put her Force to level 10, and her Hunter and Ranger to 5 thinking that maybe Acro classes would be like Protranny in their reqs. But yeah, I feel that those Ranger levels I spent on her weren't a total waste.

Oh yeah, I edited my 1st post, its WAY more explanatory now than it was before, maybe it could be worth reading.

[Nyreal]

Awesome! It beats out the Acrotecher topic now. Thanks, Shiro.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I was about to say that. We can't let this thread die out while the Acrotecher thread is so alive.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-14 06:51, Nyreal wrote:
Awesome! It beats out the Acrotecher topic now.


That really isn't hard to beat in terms of quality. It's 19 pages of nothing but yelling and complaining about how one race will be siginificantly better than the others.


Anyway, now I'll have to try the Acro- classes on day one of AoI just to figure out if the speed bonus really does effect skills and, if it does, if it is enough to offset the 4% more ATP that FG has.

A speed bonus on skills would make AF all-around better than FG at melee, aside from max twin saber/dagger rank and the double saber.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, that speed bonus is really attractive for both Acrofighter and Acrotecher. I kind of favor speed, so this looks awesome. I'm worried that once I go Acro, I'll never go back, I mean, I might also want to try out the new FI, FF, and WT as well.

[panzer_unit]

Swords look like they're going to be ridiculously powerful in AOI (tenora A-ranks & PP capacity problems basically fixed) ... that might be the big difference between the oldschool fighting classes and AcroFighter. No 800+ ATP monster weapons regenerating enough energy to use their PA with just 2 normal swings.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I guess you're right about that. Swords can do alot of damage to multiple targets for free, which is pretty awesome. My Beast is definitley gonna stay Fortefighter and own things with Gravity Break and Just Attack. But yeah, the limited weaponry of Acrofighter may be a price to pay for the stats they boast. And Swords won't exactly suit the fighting style of Acrofighter.

[Nyreal]

Acrofighters look amazing, though. Too bad they're going to be so incredibly popular at the beginning of AoI.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, you're right about that. Once a new toy comes out, people would be all over it. Kind of curious as to who would stick to Acrofighter and who would go back to the other classes once they get bored. I for one am intending on staying.

[Nyreal]

Me as well. I'm keeping to Wartecher for the Madoogs and Whips, but Acrofighters fit Nyreal's personality. Though casting has always been a big part of his style as well.

Oh well. I can play as both. I'll probably only go over to Wartecher so I can be an S&M god...

[AC9breaker]

On 2007-10-14 08:05, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-10-14 06:51, Nyreal wrote:
Awesome! It beats out the Acrotecher topic now.



Anyway, now I'll have to try the Acro- classes on day one of AoI just to figure out if the speed bonus really does effect skills and, if it does, if it is enough to offset the 4% more ATP that FG has.

A speed bonus on skills would make AF all-around better than FG at melee, aside from max twin saber/dagger rank and the double saber.



Don't know if you guys have seen this yet or what.

[Acro Speed confirmation] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6a0FXsEIz0)

I'm really pissed that they changed Shadoog effects. But When I think about it, Stun and Killer Shot SE we're really too good of an SE to have for a Shadoog. I imagine those effects will be reserved for Higher tier Shadoogs.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Wow, thanks for the vid AC9. I'm also curious about Shadoogs and their effects based on rank and color. Since Acrofighters also have the 2nd highest TP, I'm sure they'll still do some nice extra damage. I would also like to know about the SE levels of Shadoogs if they're available.

[AlphaMinotaux]

This thread makes me emo about my cast acrofighter /wrists

at least i got a beast fortefighter still http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, I just got AoI, and the first thing I did [after changing hairstyles and clothes and all that] with Shiro Ryuu was turn him into an Acrofighter. Ok, first off, this is how an Acrofighter compares to a Fighgunner. This is male Human, lv 100 w/ both jobs at lv 10.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6025/psu20071122012810007co7.png

Ok, now to some important stuff, my experiences. Well, I loved the attack speed, which makes it easier for me to JA w/ the melee attacks, Shadoogs did like 200 per shot on a neutral element monster, and I was blocking almost everything this lv 100 Bil de Vear threw at me. All in all, this class kicks ass. I suffered alot by going from 1190 or so ATP as a Fortefighter to like 883 ATP as an Acrofighter, but I picked myself up, lv'd up the class while exploring the game, and yeah. I just love this class, it is really awesome.

[Nyreal]

I've noticed. As a level 10 Wartecher, a level ONE Acrofighter has the same ATP as me. It's rather sad. Their stats are completely amazing.

I'll have to take this class for a spin later... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

Acrofighter gets it right: great stats, speed, increased stamina, and trap use.

seen it in action, and it rocks. I'd trade cards for a machine gun any day, but then no one would be left to play FiG.

Also, I'd recomend getting a skill save if you can afford it. This job uses bullets rarely, and melee frequently.

Also: slicers = gross and wrong.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Slicers are totally awesome, although at some situations, I found myself better off using a dagger, such as when those vandas got too close, I just whipped out my dagger and used Hikai. Its easier to JA with Hikai as an AF since as a non-Acro, it takes quite a while to pull it off.

[Midicronica]

I'm having a really really really really hard time deciding on whether or not I'll play Figunner as my main class on hunter character right about now. Everything that Acrofighter has to offer is just way too attractive. I'm enjoying myself 120% right now.

S rank Slicer and Shadoogs...... NO! .......S rank Twin Daggers and Doubles Sabers! I can't decide. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[AlphaDragoon]

As soon as I get my copy of Illuminus (hopefully tomorrow and not Monday, Black Friday isn't a holiday dammit) I WILL be going AF. IT sounds like the class I've wanted from the get-go.


On 2007-11-22 00:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Acrofighter gets it right: great stats, speed, increased stamina, and trap use.

seen it in action, and it rocks. I'd trade cards for a machine gun any day, but then no one would be left to play FiG.

Also, I'd recomend getting a skill save if you can afford it. This job uses bullets rarely, and melee frequently.

Well, with the new PP system I've rarely had to even use a Photon Charge, so I don't think the Skill Save is absolutel necessary anymore. It would be kinda nice to have, though.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AlphaDragoon on 2007-11-22 08:25 ]</font>

[Suicide_Squid]

On the S rank De Rol Le mission as a M CAST AF 56/7 I'm doing about 4k damage against the ground element druas with the second hit of the ult claw PA (w/Yohmei 9* 24% lightning, PA lv21) as a just attack. Juicy. I'm also in love with the GRM card & dark bullet/Daiga misaki combo. Freeze and infect freakin EVERYTHING. I also highly recommend getting a rainbow of the tenora claws, since PP is almost completely irrelevant as a stat these days.

AF = Win



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Suicide_Squid on 2007-11-22 12:13 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

In case anyone's curious, the stat increases from Acrofighter 10 to 11.
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/764/psu20071125005746001ju7.png

From 1-10, it levels really fast, and from 10-11, it levels really slow, but finally, from then on, it starts to level normally.

[AlphaDragoon]

Got AoI earlier tonight...OH. MY. GOD. I love Acrofighter.

[Noxia]

do you think acrofighter is good with CAST ? because it seems shadoogs are using Techs instead of ATA or ATP.
and you know CASTs have the worst tech from all race
:3

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Noxia on 2007-11-25 12:17 ]</font>

[Pillan]

I’ll assume you mean Acrofighter, given the thread.

But, simply put, Shadoogs are guns that can’t be used for anything more than complementary damage an SE while using the main hand for your real output, even as a Newman. Between the low firing rate and lack of PAs, a Cast of the same gender can have identical output to a human with a shadoog and melee weapon if the skill is above level 20, and surpassing them after that. Their low EVP is also not low enough for Newmans to have an advantage over them as the class, though human and Beast obviously do because of the human bonus and the higher HP and EVP on Beasts, but Casts once again have the max survivability at some low damage value (when the enemy deals around 3-5% of your HP in damage).

Also the slicer nerf gives Casts a small advantage with them, but this advantage is not large enough to say Cast > everything.

So, yeah, not a bad option, but arguably not the best option either.

[foamcup]

You people worry too damn much about race/class combos, play what you want to play. I'm playing newman acrofighter, I'm having way more fun than I ever did as a fortetecher, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can suck my balls.

[Nyreal]

I'm playing as a strange combination of Wartecher, Acrofighter, and Acrotecher. I'm so confused!

Acrofighters are rather fun, though. If only there was a class with both whips and slicers. That would make me incredibly happy.

[Zorafim]

Don't be confused. Those three classes complement each other very well.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-11-25 11:15, Pillan wrote:
I’ll assume you mean Acrofighter, given the thread.

But, simply put, Shadoogs are guns that can’t be used for anything more than complementary damage an SE while using the main hand for your real output, even as a Newman. Between the low firing rate and lack of PAs, a Cast of the same gender can have identical output to a human with a shadoog and melee weapon if the skill is above level 20, and surpassing them after that. Their low EVP is also not low enough for Newmans to have an advantage over them as the class, though human and Beast obviously do because of the human bonus and the higher HP and EVP on Beasts, but Casts once again have the max survivability at some low damage value (when the enemy deals around 3-5% of your HP in damage).

Also the slicer nerf gives Casts a small advantage with them, but this advantage is not large enough to say Cast > everything.

So, yeah, not a bad option, but arguably not the best option either.



Human>Beast=Cast>Newman (is how I see it).

Beasts *really* appreciate the ATA, yet for Casts, it's pretty overkill.

[Noxia]

i don't know if i'm right or wrong but i'll give my own opinion :3

i think CAST are the second best choice after human concerning acrofighter because even if their TP sux with shadoogs, their high ATA (accuracy) are compensating with handguns, don't forget we can equip S handguns and they have a good ATP, so you can deal
good damage in melee with good chance to hit.

Beast have better ATP but their low ATA will provide them to use handguns at full capacity (and maybe shadoogs)

for short :
-human : very good balancing with all weapons + bonus with acro class on humans

-cast : better chance to hit and good damage but less damage with shadoogs (depending of TP)

-beast : highest damage in melee but less hit with range weapon (i don't know concerning shadoogs)

-newman : i never played newman so i don't really know but i think they would be better as acrotecher because of their higher TP.

you can disagree with me but please, don't yell at me ;-;

[Noxia]

i don't know if i'm right or wrong but i'll give my own opinion :3

i think CAST are the second best choice after human concerning acrofighter because even if their TP sux with shadoogs, their high ATA (accuracy) are compensating with handguns, don't forget we can equip S handguns and they have a good ATP, so you can deal
good damage in melee with good chance to hit (and shadoog will just do "bonus damage").

Beast have better ATP but their low ATA will provide them to use handguns at full capacity (and maybe shadoogs)

for short :
-human : very good balancing with all weapons + bonus with acro class on humans

-cast : better chance to hit and good damage but less damage with shadoogs (depending of TP)

-beast : highest damage in melee but less hit with range weapon (i don't know concerning shadoogs)

-newman : i never played newman so i don't really know but i think they would be better as acrotecher because of their highest TP.

you can disagree with me but please, don't yell at me ;-;

[Noxia]

damn it >_< triple post again, i don't know what's going on

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Noxia on 2007-11-26 03:46 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-11-25 23:16, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Human>Beast=Cast>Newman (is how I see it).

Beasts *really* appreciate the ATA, yet for Casts, it's pretty overkill.


I'd say Beast > human = Cast > Newman, but it really doesn't matter that much. I say Beasts because their output is clearly higher than human unless the enemy has rediculous EVP and their survivability is nearly identical because the HP difference is about the same as the EVP difference and the DFP difference is less than 1 point damage (in favor of human), even with 50% armor.

Shadoogs don't need ATA because they don't have PAs lowering it like all other guns do. Cards have rediculous ATA and a low mod, so the difference in damage is enough to say Cast = Beast. Slicers have mid-ATA but a high mod, throwing you around the same area as Cards. Handguns and twin handguns are the only weapons with high base ATA dependence on the class, and neither is an appropriate weapon choice unless you need to first person a specific target on a boss.

So, yeah, like you said, Cast ATA is overkill most of the time, but higher ATA coupled with higher ATP always results in higher damage than human and Newman and it still always results in a higher hit rate than Beasts, lowering the real output difference to like 2% (and at that point I'd assume no one cares).

But, seriously, play what you want. These differences are all marginal and don't really matter at all in combat.

[Noxia]

i'm asking because i'm really hesitate between my beast and my cast :3 i love them each other but i can't make them all the same class

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Noxia on 2007-11-26 06:08 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Well, Beast is pretty much all-around better than Cast at the class, so Beast is the better option if you really care about the stats. If you don't, just flip a coin.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, Acrofighters get S rank pistols and A rank cards, and both have a bullet art that heals. So I'm debating on which one to get. I know trimates would be better in an emergency, and I might not necessarily need them in the precense of a good FT, GT, or AT. But still, having the ability to heal for free may be useful at times.

[Suicide_Squid]

Shadoogs aren't worth the slot, imo. I'd rather be leveling a card or pistol bullet. You can fire your card and run in for melee, while the cards come in and hit. It's the same thing, but the card bullet actually grows over time. I could only see using a shadoog if you really, really missed your old MAG.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Shadoogs are pretty awesome IMO. I do 400 per shot for 3 shots every few seconds plus the ability to apply SEs and it also aims for monsters that are flying and out of reach, and you can be lazy about it too. I have the little dude over my shoulder shooting at the monsters all by itself while I manually stick to doing what I do best, slashing the monsters into little pieces. What's not to love?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Man, I'm NOT letting this thread die and get beaten out by the Acrotecher thread...again. Well, I think I'd mind as well post my pallette:

Crimson + Ageha-kikami or Ryo-sabed
Masamunera + Viper
Shura-hiken + Ageha-kikami
Crimson + Yactike (Neutral)
Crimson + Rokaduke (Dark)
Deva-zashi + Galdike (Fire)

I'm planning on getting me a lightning shadoog to pair up with my Deva-zashi so that I can shock and silence monsters at the same time, making them unable to do any form of offense. I need more A rank Shadoogs, but its tough when my ranged PM fails 2 out of 3 synths [the good one came out fire]. Guess I'm gonna have to wait for the 1up rewards to synth them again. ._.

[Reyes]

Still pretty much new to PSU, considering turning my Human character into an Acrofighter, just been leveling up his Ranger license.

[Neith]

+1 for the 'Acrofighter is awesome' crowd here.

Got my Newman Female to Lv76, aF10, and she's really awesome. My EVP as a Newman F is really high, and even against Lv100 mobs, I block a lot of attacks. Not only is this great practice for Just Counter, but it means I have survivability. I thought i'd really miss Spears, but I don't..other weapons that aF can use are suiting me fine. All I need is the new Claw PA when it releases, which will allow me to stop using Renkai for AoE damage.

My pallette is:
- Crimson (or Masamunera) / Galdike
- Deva-zashi / Nothing (synthing a Ebrozike on Friday for here)
- Daiga-Misaki / Raygun
- Fuma-hiken / Card Regina
- Heavy Twins (or Katsuno-zashi)
- Arb Biso (or Deathmaker)

Use these PA's mainly.
Spinning Strike / Burn SE on Galdike
Buten Shuren-zan
Shousen Totsuzan-ga / Frozen Hit
Chikki Kyoren-jin / Reisei-shiki (or Insei-shiki)
Rising Crush (or Assault Crush)
Renkai Buyou-zan (or Moubu Seiren-zan)
Twin Freeze
Twin Mayalee

I gotta say though, even with the Slicer nerf, it's still a broken weapon. As a Newman, using a JA'd Chikki, I hit 850-900 with the first part, and 1500-1600 on the second part. Plus, R-Mags are really decent as a Newman- my Galdike deals 400+ to ice monsters, and the Burn SE lands a lot, even on large monsters.

Awesome class, chose it and never looked back. I just need a Shura-hiken, or a Sanzu-hiken on Friday http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[granis1233]

question or shadoogs harder to lvl up then cards

[Neith]

On 2007-11-28 09:39, granis1233 wrote:
question or shadoogs harder to lvl up then cards



Shadoogs don't have Photon Arts, so they don't level up. You synth them with elemental photons, and the rank/element determines the Status it inflicts. No Photon Art needed. I think that's what you were asking.

[SolomonGrundy]

Human AF 10 here, also play as a Protranser.

Once thursday hits and I get a bunch of S rank PT weapons I'll have a tough(er) decision to make. Right now I'm playing as an AF for the speed, and to level the slicer PA

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, I changed up my pallete somewhat. Here's what its like now.

Ryo-sabed
Masamunera + Viper
Shura-hiken + Ageha-kikami
Crimson + Galdike (Ice)
Crimson + Galdike (Fire)
Deva-zashi + Galdike (Lightning)

I have a dark galdike, although I think I'd like a Fuka-misaki to pair up with that so I can freeze and infect at the same time too, that'll be pretty awesome. I also got that Lightning shadoog I've been wanting to pair up with my deva-zashi so I can now make enemies unable to do anything. I really want an Ebrozike with Earth if it gives stun. That'll be pretty awesome.

The PAs I use depend on situation. I mostly use Gravity Strike, Spinning Strike, Hikai Shuha-zan, Chikki Kyoren-jin, Assault Crush. I also kind of decided that I'll use my frags on the healing card bullet for Cards and the new AoE claw PA whenever I get a Daiga-misaki, if not, I can just get a Tenora claw.

[Pengfishh]

Friday is Pengfish Gets AoI Day! Let's all rejoice for that, for it will be Pengfish is an Acrofighter Day also!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pengfishh on 2007-11-28 14:55 ]</font>

[Miren]

On 2007-11-28 14:43, Shiroryuu wrote:

I have a dark galdike, although I think I'd like a Fuka-misaki to pair up with that so I can freeze and infect at the same time too



Dark Galdike is confuse instead of infect.

[aquafire]

I loooove AF..I have a newman M AF lvl 12 and will most likely never change classes>_>; yay for shadoogs doing more than this FG and his twins...and I'm 30 levels lower XDD

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-11-28 20:07, Miren wrote:

On 2007-11-28 14:43, Shiroryuu wrote:

I have a dark galdike, although I think I'd like a Fuka-misaki to pair up with that so I can freeze and infect at the same time too



Dark Galdike is confuse instead of infect.



Oh yeah, forgot about that. ._.

[Reyes]

Finally became an Acrofighter, still only lvl 34 but starting getting the hang of PSU.

[SolomonGrundy]

can someone confirm that B rank shadoogs actually inflict infect (please)?

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I think there's a thread in the Gameplay forum that shows the Shadoogs, their ranks, and their SEs. I don't know if I should put it on the OP.

[UltimateCarl]

So... Acrofighter is basically the "tank" class, now? Not that PSU really has one, but they're essentially the longest-lived of all the current classes?

And... Human Acrofighters don't really survive that much longer than Beast or CAST Acrofighters? That seems a little odd to me, but I've never played one or crunched the math, so I'll have to go by your word.

See, I AM a stat whore. It's kind of my thing. I just enjoy number crunching and optimization. Of course I play for fun as well, and if it comes down to it, if I absolutely don't want to do something even if it nets me the absolute best stats, I won't, but my general playstyle involves "being ubar" and "large numbarz lolz". Or, I suppose in this case, "small numbarz lol" in terms of damage.

I'm not trying to start any flame wars here, but would I be correct in saying that currently the absolute hardest thing to kill in this game would be a Female Human Acrofighter, or would it be something else? And with the low hits, high base ATP of single sabers and apparent decent damage of Shadoogs, she wouldn't be completely left behind in the damage department by, say, a Male Beast Acrofighter?

Thanks.

[Pillan]

My bet would be a tie between male human and male Beast. The EVP difference between the races and genders is more BS than the HP difference in all cases except fT (which has high, but not super-saturated EVP and super low HP). I’m too lazy to go through the work of a full equation and find out, but I’ll just guestimate based on what I know. If you want to see the highest output in general, male Beast is also your best choice because the ATP difference between human and Beast is a lot larger than the TP difference after skills and time are taken into account.

And, yeah, the difference between the races usually isn’t more than 1 hit. So, we really are talking tiny numbers.

So, I would say go Beast if you want big numbers + good survivability. Go human if you’re just in it for the class bonus.

[Konstanse_Xx]

On 2007-11-29 15:04, SolomonGrundy wrote:
can someone confirm that B rank shadoogs actually inflict infect (please)?


It infects on B Rank, I use the store-bought 6*.

[Gen2000]

I got a Cast AF15 and haven't been disappointed one bit though I'm pretty sure Beast is better (or best) at it since TP is an easy stat to make up for with all the TP units and TP boosting armors out there compared to ATP units and armor.

At first I wasn't too pleased with the Srank Shadoogs but I noticed the piercing flinching effect of the lasers really helps a lot during Slicer spam when taking down mobs when solo'ing and the Ground Srank laser causing Stun which is awesome. The Bullet Shadoogs still have their place, they work much better on Saber/Daggers when you go to take on a single enemy or boss.

So yeah, another +1 for "Acrofighter is awesome" group.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gen2000 on 2007-11-30 02:05 ]</font>

[Kylie]

I tried it out, and it isn't so bad. I'm not one for one-handed weapons, but the speed was interesting to check out for myself. My only gripe was when I got to AF10 and did a mission, I swear the meter didn't move at all. Plus, it was a little hard to JA some combos because of the speed. Honestly, I still prefer FI over it, but eh.

[Fried]

So, Ive been playing Acrofighter for a while now. I started the game just 1 week before AoI released so to be fair, its the only class ive really played(I was fortetecher for a couple days prior aoi release). I am level 60 and nearing AF 11 very slowly, but not much longer. All the acrofighters I see are out there using slicers/shadoogs as their main weapon on average monsters and sabres/pistol or cards on bigger/more boss-like monsters which is the same conclusion I came to on my own after fiddling around with all the weapons. Maybe an occasional A rank 2 hand weapon type like sabres. So my question is, how reliant is this class on slicers. What if another slicer nerf came down the pipe either lowering the atk % on the PA or narrowing its scope of effect. Regardless of how it could be nerfed, lets just say it came to pass that slicers were not worth using as a primary weapon, where would that leave acrofighters in the mix?

Im a bit concerned but I am admittedly a newbie with a rather narrow scope of understanding of the game mechanics compared to some here. Sure, AF still at level 10 at least (i dont know about higher) has generous stats compared to other level 10 melee figher types. Perhaps the most direct competition would be Fighgunner and according to stats alone we beat them handsdown. Of course, we all know however that stats are not the end all . The biggest bonus over other classes we have of course is EVP. However, every day I find myself questioning just how much I appreciate this high EVP. At first I embraced it, had some high evasion armor and armor unit since at the time I didnt know if the type EVP bonus was applied on top of equipment as well or not(its apparently not). Then I found myself not able to complete my slicer PA attack, usually getting interrupted after the first attack and often before I can even do that. So right now Im questioning the usefulness of the stat. Perhaps some time without high evasion will give me a better idea of the other side of the fence and give me more respect for EVP.

Anyway, acrofighters without strong slicers leaves us where exactly? A tanklike class using single sabres that gets shorted on experience because they can only hit 2 monsters at a time? Its apparent shadoogs arent going to be overly amazing anytime soon either http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif As the game pushes to higher levels the options of using A ranks becomes less attractive. How will this type weather that change? Is this class a one trick pony of sorts in the fact that they are just the best at using the most broke weapon (according to the majority of players) in the game better than anyone else? Im not certain Im making a great choice investing all my time into getting AF mission points considering my limited playtime.

One final note, I am not just making this post to whine about the class or anything. Im having fun. I just realize my knowledge of this game is terribly limited. I would just like some opinions on how this type stacks up against others if slicers were in fact lowered in usefulness significantly.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Fried on 2007-12-03 09:21 ]</font>

[Suicide_Squid]

My alt is LV 60 AF 10 M CAST and I'm evading more than I ever have before. This class is a boon to CASTS, who only have HP as their decent defensive stat. I also hardly ever miss with any attacks (slicers are overpowered, imo; I stick with single claws), which is something I doubt the beast players out there can say. CAST AF is a winner for sure, but it seems to be for all the other race/gender combinations also. Could it be that AF is the most accessible, finessable class yet?

PS: If you feel like you're getting shorted on XP, just tag all of the mobs with ranged attacks before you go into melee. You might even land a status effect.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Suicide_Squid on 2007-12-03 10:38 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Acrofighter is a high-speed melee class that focuses on one-handed weapons. The Slicer is not the only thing you should ever use, and you should try to use the other weapons you can use as well. I only have one Slicer in my palette, and I only use it in a few situations, while I use my Dagger or my Saber in others, and I do really awesome.

Acrofighter's other advantage over the other classes is that it has a speed bonus in melee. In all of the melee weapons they can use, they slash with them faster than any other class using the same weapon. The speed bonus also means that when you evade, it'll be easier to Just Counter. The speed also makes interruptions less of a problem when you evade because you'll either be done w/ the move, or you can Just Counter if you're good enough with that.

So in a nutshell, Acrofighter can take a Slicer hit pretty well. Even if Slicers get nerfed to hell, which I see coming, they still have sabers, daggers, claws which are pretty awesome weapons, cards, twin and single pistols for flying stuff, Shadoogs for SEs and extra damage, Twin weapons, the best EVP, the ability to use DoT traps, and faster attacking with melee. The class is still awesome, regardless of whether or not Slicers are powerful.