No love for twin handguns?

[SolomonGrundy]

Reading through a few threads I see a lot of folks dumping twins in favor of rifles, bows, crossbows, and cards.

Now each of these weapons has advantages over twins, but twins offers advantages over each of these weapons as well.
Twins do more DPS than rifles for all elements but fire and virus.
Twins have faster fire rate, and more mobility than rifles or bows
Twins have better range and are far more elemental than crossbows
Twins have far more PP than cards (yeah, I'm kinda strething there, cards are really good when matched up vs twins).

Can posters/players who are dumping twins explain why they are so non usefull to them now? Please feel free to rebutt my statments above.

[Yoshiflash]

Well you should know my station by now.

High levels = Twin Handguns and Crossbows.

Low level = Rifle(but only grinded ones)

People start out using rifles early because the damage on the weapon kicks your total so far beyond your other options it simply makes sense. Those people just continue to use them religiously, eagerly awaiting the day they can use their phantom-line and all the while convincing people its the only way to go.

Man I tell ya...the more I post on these forums, now that I have a job with internet but no PSU, I realize how utterly poisoned the pool of information becomes due to people with a bagillion posts but very little (comparably to some) in game experience, convincing newer players that their playstyle or opinions are the right way to go.

Unlike most MMOs you can go a REALLY long time without ever learning through other players actions and experience IN GAME. You spend so much time in parties with people just leveling this and that weapon, and dilly dallyin around because of the lack of challenge in a party environment. This really takes a toll on the "learning from your environment" aspect that most online games possess.

But now I'm just ranting....

[Kaydin]

Reka's staple weapons are the Dualies. I'm really not much of a fan of the big guns - Rifles, Launches, etc. I use them anyways when needed, but Dualies are still my favorites.

[Pillan]

I take it that we’re comparing damage spam ranged weapons.

From most potential damage/time to least at adequate levels, the guns are machinegun, shotgun, crossbow, card, and twin handgun. Laser cannons could potentially outdamage the others, but it’s not likely to get 3 or 4 enemies in a line. (Rifles and bows are actually on the low end, though they make up for the damage loss with effects or ignoring DFP in the case of bows.)

Machineguns run out way too fast, shotguns are slow and hard to maneuver, crossbows drain PP almost as fast as mechs, and cards can’t first person (though a good card user can hit airborne enemies with them anyway). I would agree that twin handguns are the most versatile of the three.

I personally use twin handguns a lot on my fG/GT, but I got rid of them long ago on my FG (future aF). This is simply because twin handguns have the same effect level and same damage/time as crossbows between levels 11-20 and at 21+ the crossbow shines even more (more damage and more effect). Plus you can throw in a right hand weapon. You do sacrifice a lot of ATA by doing this, so I don’t recommend it as a Beast FG. On aF I’ll stick to Cards most of the time because they get more damage/time at 11+ and can be used with another weapon.


I forgot to add that I'm keeping Twin Mayalee for obvious reasons.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-11 15:41 ]</font>

[Yoshiflash]

I should add that I use twin handguns exclusively for first person damage.

Crossbows exclusively for non-first person.

Traps for SE on large enemies and the occasional unruly mob of Vahras.

I'll admit that I like messing with other guns to break up the monotony but my fG is totally capped and is currently used solely for farming things for my other classes to use.

[-Shimarisu-]

The only twin handgun PAs you need are burn and freeze. Mostly just for DPS.

Virus is outperformed by fire on small fry as it dies before the virus runs out usually. Meaning it dies faster with burn status. Virus shoud be used on SE 4 weapons.

Crossbow outperforms twin handguns and it's advisable to learn more PAs in that, with burn and IMO shock being the best two.

What you should learn for optimal performance:

Rifle/bow:

Fire
Ice
Dark

Twin handguns:

Fire
Ice

Crossbow:

Fire
Plasma
(any others depending on areas you play most in)

Cards:

Fire
Ice
(any others depending on areas you play most in)


Really not convinced that rangers need to learn more than just fire and ice in twin handguns. If you want to SE, crossbow is superior, if you want to DPS, crossbow is STILL superior but you may like the superior range and direction of bullets with handguns in some scenarios. Most bosses are fire element so you'll want the ice. As are most flyers. For greater range, you'll go rifle, so learn ice in that too.

[-Shimarisu-]

Also just want to stress that given the low ATP mod on twins vs the high ATP mod on cards, a newman GT might fare best with cards wheras a cast might outperform with twin handguns. I don't have a cast to make the comparison however and I can't be bothered making stat calculations as yet.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-11 15:38, Pillan wrote:
I take it that we’re comparing damage spam ranged weapons.

From most potential damage/time to least at adequate levels, the guns are machinegun, shotgun, crossbow, card, and twin handgun. Laser cannons could potentially outdamage the others, but it’s not likely to get 3 or 4 enemies in a line. (Rifles and bows are actually on the low end, though they make up for the damage loss with effects or ignoring DFP in the case of bows.)

Machineguns run out way too fast, shotguns are slow and hard to maneuver, crossbows drain PP almost as fast as mechs, and cards can’t first person (though a good card user can hit airborne enemies with them anyway). I would agree that twin handguns are the most versatile of the three.

I personally use twin handguns a lot on my fG/GT, but I got rid of them long ago on my FG (future aF). This is simply because twin handguns have the same effect level and same damage/time as crossbows between levels 11-20 and at 21+ the crossbow shines even more (more damage and more effect). Plus you can throw in a right hand weapon. You do sacrifice a lot of ATA by doing this, so I don’t recommend it as a Beast FG. On aF I’ll stick to Cards most of the time because they get more damage/time at 11+ and can be used with another weapon.


I forgot to add that I'm keeping Twin Mayalee for obvious reasons.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-11 15:41 ]</font>


by the way pillian, in the recently locked AT thread you said tat rangers guns have only 100 ATA. not true, they have more like 150-200 ATA
8* twins (and tenora 6*) = 200
9* crossbows: 150
8* shotties: 160
8* rifles: 170

cards and bows have higher ATA natch...

[Pillan]

9 star shot is 135, 9 star twin handgun is 146, 9 star crossbow is 156, 9 star rifle is 188.

I’m guessing you were considering the Kubaras (which no one really uses, aside from the mechs). And I did mention rifles, cards, bows, and machineguns as exceptions (mechs get a godly 87% ATA at level 30). A gunner using any one of those weapons clearly has more ATA than a Fortefighter.

Yeah, I guess I was off saying 100 and should have said 150, but fG and fF still end up having about the same ATA when you take everything into consideration and fF clearly has more when they’re not skill spamming. It’s just another one of those weird things that comes up when you pay too much attention to how the game works.


Anyway, I really don’t want to get far off topic in your thread, so I’ll end with something on topic.

Even with the same element as the enemy type, crossbows end up out damaging twin handguns after level 21. Adding their effect level into consideration, they become the ideal effect spam weapon for any class that can equip them. You can really use them for both effect and damage spam, so I really recommend getting every element in them if you have the PA slots.

You could keep Twin Mayalee as your only twin handgun bullet. 5% less ATA and 20% more ATP plus Zalure pretty much makes up for the damage loss.

[Tulio07]

only rifle shot I use is Burn. I love my dualies.

[Akaimizu]

Very easy, Solomon. Most people don't play the game with the same methods I do, or worry about what you can do with them. So I take it this way, they have their methods, I have mine. I understand what they're going for and it works for that playstyle. I have my methods, and they've been working for mine.

My goal itself was to work Twin Handgun use to an art, and use them for every possible use including what they can do outside of just DPS and SE level. Of course, I carry a full group of things with me, but I'm pretty much near complete for my methods of monster control, which is added to the mix. Very fun in parties. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have a good amount of material about uses for Twin Handguns if you want to see them, but I'm not going to argue with differing playstyles about it.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-11 19:52, Akaimizu wrote:
Very easy, Solomon. Most people don't play the game with the same methods I do, or worry about what you can do with them. So I take it this way, they have their methods, I have mine. I understand what they're going for and it works for that playstyle. I have my methods, and they've been working for mine.

My goal itself was to work Twin Handgun use to an art, and use them for every possible use including what they can do outside of just DPS and SE level. Of course, I carry a full group of things with me, but I'm pretty much near complete for my methods of monster control, which is added to the mix. Very fun in parties. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have a good amount of material about uses for Twin Handguns if you want to see them, but I'm not going to argue with differing playstyles about it.



absolutely! I would so like to hear twin uses!

[-Shimarisu-]

I'd argue that crossbow outperforms shot damage wise if only in terms of maneuverability. You can keep firing while avoiding a threat with crossbow, with shot you have to stop firing, get out of the way, reposition and resume firing. It's fairly important to maintain manueverability with a weapon that requires point blank firing to be most efficient. Ergo, crossbow>shot.

Everything else is relative. It's hard to tell which does the most damage when you have different races, different classes and low or high ATP modifiers on weapons. A cast fG would outperform a newman GT considerably with twin handguns or machineguns due to the low ATP of newman coupled with low ATP mod on these weapons. Putting cards in the newman's hands would up their damage output however.

A bow in the hands of a newman GT may well outperform rifle at later levels and with S rank availability. I know for a fact that as a human GT, my +10 Alteric outperforms my ungrinded Phantom sans Phantom line vs. Onma Goug. Put on Phantom line and rifle is the clear winner, but what's it going to be like when I get S ranks?

It's a bit hard to gauge the effectiveness of guns vs. other guns when you have all these different factors coming into play.

I've only JUST started levelling twin handguns on 360 despite loving them on PC, because I got horrendous slowdown using them on 360. A bug that now appears to be fixed, thank god. But it's still fairly obvious that crossbow outperforms them anyway.

[Kent]

On 2007-05-11 20:45, -Shimarisu- wrote:
I've only JUST started levelling twin handguns on 360 despite loving them on PC, because I got horrendous slowdown using them on 360. A bug that now appears to be fixed, thank god.

Out of curiosity, what was causing them to give you slowdown?

[Criss]

The thing with twins is that they are all-around weapons. Lots of people might be dropping twins because there's another gun that's better for any other single use. Cards have more damage, crossbows have better damage and much better SEing, rifles/bows have SE4, etc...

But what's great with Twins is that you can use them in nearly any situation besides SEing tough monsters. They get awesome maneuverability, two bullets to take advantage of your base ATP and land SEs more easily, an impressive element % of 24% at lv 21+ (only beaten by cards' 25% and bows' 30%) and a pretty good reserve of PP.

For every specific use there is a better weapon, but twins are arguably better than other weapons overall. They fire quicker than cards, have move maneuverability than rifle/bow, have a higher elemental % than crossbows, get better DPS than rifle/bow, and gets first-person view. In the end, using Twins or not only depends on personal preference and playstyle... just as should any other weapon.

[Soukosa]

Funny how there's a bunch of people comparing twin handguns to point blanking with crossbows and shotguns. Y'know, guns are considered ranged weapons and thus you aren't always gonna be using them when you're right up next to the enemy. In many cases where you'd probably be using twins at, you can't point blank. Case in point, you can't compare a gun type with any other gun type. There's various purposes for the various guns after all.

It's also laughable about the comment about only higher SE inflicting guns should have virus and never burn. There is higher STA enemies that are immune to virus afterall. You're not gonna be burning those things with a wimpy SE2, since the SE level affects more than overall damage and such. But then again, this is from a person with a "this is how I do it and thus how you should do it" attitude, I honestly say I can't expect much.

I personally like twins. They got nice range, speed, and mobility. Something I'd use for attacking things at a light distance and not up close. There's many enemies that require such manuvears and only cards can give you such, but not every class can use them and they lack some abilities as well.

My five meseta on things.

[-Shimarisu-]

Did I say never burn?

I have burn level 30 and virus in bows and rifles.

Way to read shit into my post I never wrote.

I say that sub SE4, burn is superior to virus. It IS. For a start SE3 burn sticks to large enemies whereas virus does NOT.

There is really no need for virus SE3. Learn it if you feel it is helpful to the areas you play. Burn SE3 is an essential. Burn and virus SE4 are essential. Freeze SE4, plus twin handgun freeze is essential because of flying enemies and bosses. SE3 freeze is not really as essential because the actual status effect that freeze gives is not that useful.

Everything else DEPENDS ON YOUR MODE OF PLAY.

[Hrith]

I don't use twin handguns on my fortegunner much because I am not impressed by the DPS, the 'mobility' is highly overrated, it's a ranged weapon (as Sounomi said, using it a point blank is a waste, crossbows and shotguns far outdamage any gun at point blank range), but the range is not very good, at least not good enough to be out of harm's way, like with rifles or longbows.
And to top it all, it has a gruesome SE level for a weapon with only two bullets; shotgun has Lv2 SE with five bullets =/

So it can't be used for inflicting SEs, it can't be used for attacking from a safe distance, it can't be used for DPS because shotguns and crossbows (rifles, lasers, grenades, too, in several situations) are far better.
What use does remain? Attacking medium monsters which are too dangerous to get close to with a 80% DFP class, like Desert Goliath robots. Very limited use, I'd say.

The main reason I see for people using twin handguns is because they are easy to use, and require no particular skill. They are decent in most situations, but they are never really good in most situations, either.
The only class who really needs to use twin handguns is Fighgunner, on the ranger classes, it's often better to do without because they denote a lack of skill and ability to adapt.

[Genoa]

On 2007-05-12 01:58, Hrith wrote:
I don't use twin handguns on my fortegunner much because I am not impressed by the DPS, the 'mobility' is highly overrated, it's a ranged weapon (as Sounomi said, using it a point blank is a waste, crossbows and shotguns far outdamage any gun at point blank range), but the range is not very good, at least not good enough to be out of harm's way, like with rifles or longbows.
And to top it all, it has a gruesome SE level for a weapon with only two bullets; shotgun has Lv2 SE with five bullets =/

So it can't be used for inflicting SEs, it can't be used for attacking from a safe distance, it can't be used for DPS because shotguns and crossbows (rifles, lasers, grenades, too, in several situations) are far better.
What use does remain? Attacking medium monsters which are too dangerous to get close to with a 80% DFP class, like Desert Goliath robots. Very limited use, I'd say.

The main reason I see for people using twin handguns is because they are easy to use, and require no particular skill. They are decent in most situations, but they are never really good in most situations, either.
The only class who really needs to use twin handguns is Fighgunner, on the ranger classes, it's often better to do without because they denote a lack of skill and ability to adapt.


Amazingly correct =0 and I think ST made them just for that purpose. It's not like there's a weapon that's better than another <_> They're all perfect for some type of situation that calls for it. Comparing something like Twin Handguns to Rifles is as pointless as a telephone operator with fresh breath >_>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-12 00:49, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Did I say never burn?

I have burn level 30 and virus in bows and rifles.

Way to read shit into my post I never wrote.

I say that sub SE4, burn is superior to virus. It IS. For a start SE3 burn sticks to large enemies whereas virus does NOT.

There is really no need for virus SE3. Learn it if you feel it is helpful to the areas you play. Burn SE3 is an essential. Burn and virus SE4 are essential. Freeze SE4, plus twin handgun freeze is essential because of flying enemies and bosses. SE3 freeze is not really as essential because the actual status effect that freeze gives is not that useful.



Hi Shim, don't get mad, I have a question: you say virus SE3 is not needed, but I don't get why. Virus is 55 always, SE4 just lasts longer. I'm finding virus at SE lasts just long enough that you don't have to worry about reapplication (something fire is terrible at).

also virus stacks with freeze, while fire does not.


@hrith: twins are pretty easy, but cards are pretty easy too. You notice though, that cards have no stopping power, and a properly leveled twin bullet stops govarha's in their tracks!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-05-12 02:34 ]</font>

[Mio]

I'm not a big fun of twin handguns, I use them only for twin mayalee when i'm Fighunner the Kamatoze before tornado dancing/Stun locking them. I learnt just ice bullet to have a first person ice damage with my fighunner.
But my main job is Fortegunner and as one I prefer to use different kind of ranged weapons depending on the situation:
Damage + Mobility = Mechgun
Point blank + Mobility = Crossbows
Point blank + raw damage = Shotgun
Safe Distance and SE4 = Rifle
Dragon loving = Greande

I love using crossbows and mechguns as Fighunner too ( and often I spend more time with ranged than melee as one )

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-05-12 02:26, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-05-12 00:49, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Did I say never burn?

I have burn level 30 and virus in bows and rifles.

Way to read shit into my post I never wrote.

I say that sub SE4, burn is superior to virus. It IS. For a start SE3 burn sticks to large enemies whereas virus does NOT.

There is really no need for virus SE3. Learn it if you feel it is helpful to the areas you play. Burn SE3 is an essential. Burn and virus SE4 are essential. Freeze SE4, plus twin handgun freeze is essential because of flying enemies and bosses. SE3 freeze is not really as essential because the actual status effect that freeze gives is not that useful.



Hi Shim, don't get mad, I have a question: you say virus SE3 is not needed, but I don't get why. Virus is 55 always, SE4 just lasts longer. I'm finding virus at SE lasts just long enough that you don't have to worry about reapplication (something fire is terrible at).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-05-12 02:34 ]</font>


Fire on crossbow hits so many small targets and reapplies at such a rate you do not have to worry about reapplication. The rate of burn is far superior to the rate of virus damage. Enemies hit with burn just die faster. Even with the ability to freeze+virus, burn+shock is better on smaller stuff. On large threats with lots of HP, like the last room of Lab S2, virus is great because it lets you apply SE4 on large monsters then leave them alone, go onto the next one. Some people prefer traps for everything but if you have two or more rangers applying virus via SE4 it's not even necessary to spend lots on traps for the small amount of time saved.

I just prefer to shock and burn smaller threats and freeze and virus larger ones.

If you prefer different methods then fine, I just see SE3 burn as an ESSENTIAL bullet PA, SE4 virus and burn also as essential, and all others are preference really depending on what PAs you can spare.

Actually if you want my best advice, you should learn ALL crossbow PAs, SE4 burn, virus and freeze and basically consider others as optional depending on which you find easiest or most useful to use.

Hell toss in Killer Shot and Twin Mayalee. The former is absolute ownage at fast easy levelling and the latter extremely useful on fG or FiG as they lack defense down.

Actually I've decided on keeping Twin Mayalee for my GT and not bothering with Zalure, even after AoI hits. It's just more fun, and I don't really consider debuffs via techs to be my no. 1 priority any more.

[Hrith]

Your plan is pretty good, but robots are immune to burn, so virus is quite obviously better for them. Yak Megiga > robots.
I also dislike using Fire bullet arts on fire monsters, hence why it's good to have both bullet types.

[-Shimarisu-]

More like Killer shot>robots in general.

Large ones can be infected with SE4 and nothing else anyway.

It's good to have both, but I was outlining what should essentially be levelled first.

[SolomonGrundy]

robots robots robots robots...there are several types.

there are the elec type in parum, that elect crossbow shuts down. Tey are fire element in the train mission

there are the earth type in neudiaz that confuse shuts down.

there are robot bugs. Fire, oddly can be applied to these...

I find that whatever you kill them with, a second person applying neutralizing SE is pretty helpful. I just did a few S runs of Desert goliath, and shock + killer shot ended things nice and quick.

[akratic]

On 2007-05-12 01:58, Hrith wrote:
I don't use twin handguns on my fortegunner much because I am not impressed by the DPS, the 'mobility' is highly overrated, it's a ranged weapon (as Sounomi said, using it a point blank is a waste, crossbows and shotguns far outdamage any gun at point blank range), but the range is not very good, at least not good enough to be out of harm's way, like with rifles or longbows.
And to top it all, it has a gruesome SE level for a weapon with only two bullets; shotgun has Lv2 SE with five bullets =/

So it can't be used for inflicting SEs, it can't be used for attacking from a safe distance, it can't be used for DPS because shotguns and crossbows (rifles, lasers, grenades, too, in several situations) are far better.
What use does remain? Attacking medium monsters which are too dangerous to get close to with a 80% DFP class, like Desert Goliath robots. Very limited use, I'd say.

The main reason I see for people using twin handguns is because they are easy to use, and require no particular skill. They are decent in most situations, but they are never really good in most situations, either.
The only class who really needs to use twin handguns is Fighgunner, on the ranger classes, it's often better to do without because they denote a lack of skill and ability to adapt.

Your inability to figure out how to use twin handguns well reveals your lack of skill and inability to adapt, not that of others.

But it was a nice description of how you like to play, which, after all, is all that matters.

[Sgt_Shligger]

Why don't I use Twin Pistols, aye?

*EDIT*

Well, get this, I prefer the SINGLE pistol to duel pistols. I don't even use either of them but if I had to. . .

Now, the main reason I don't use them is due to the actual "use" of dual pistols. Not sure how to put it, I just find them boring to use. Crossbows let me go upfront and ice everything. Cards do damage at about the same range as dualies and, IMO, are way more fun to use.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sgt_Shliggy on 2007-05-13 10:50 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

cmon now. shiggy, card look a little ridiculous , n'est pas?

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-05-11 20:37, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-05-11 19:52, Akaimizu wrote:
Very easy, Solomon. Most people don't play the game with the same methods I do, or worry about what you can do with them. So I take it this way, they have their methods, I have mine. I understand what they're going for and it works for that playstyle. I have my methods, and they've been working for mine.

My goal itself was to work Twin Handgun use to an art, and use them for every possible use including what they can do outside of just DPS and SE level. Of course, I carry a full group of things with me, but I'm pretty much near complete for my methods of monster control, which is added to the mix. Very fun in parties. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have a good amount of material about uses for Twin Handguns if you want to see them, but I'm not going to argue with differing playstyles about it.



absolutely! I would so like to hear twin uses!



I have plenty, though I've posted them quite a few times on here, before. My style of play heavily promotes Twin Handgun use, but I don't use them solely. Twin MayaLee may start most of my fights, for simple reasons of easy delivery combined with damage, and allowing every physical attack trait to hit them harder.

As for the other reasons, I'm a monster controller lover. My game goes around getting the monsters to a position that puts them at disadvantage or to help keep their ire off certain other guardians, both lessening damage on them, and keeping everybody on the offensive. So while I have all the elements for them, certain ones work lesser than others, of course. Still, they do decent amount of damage, inflict SE2 but do it quite fast at late levels. Crossbow does match the delivery, quite nice with them. On the other hand, the Twins also can attract a distant monster like no other. If you want a weapon to quickly anger a horde of monsters, from most distances, that's your weapon to use. Even if you don't confuse the monster, you can get it to turn towards you, and away from the person they really should be paying attention to. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Funny enough, I have my most recent acquisition, the MayaLee Prism. Now that means I have a *pulling* weapon, AND a *pushing* weapon.

Now, of course, banking on just the Twins is not smart. If you wanna be Twin Handgun fan, like myself, you also want all your grounds covered as well. Get the necessities outside of Twins that *complete* your playstyle and arsenal. Most of my weapon choices were based on how do I compliment the Twins, so I can still use them a lot, but have the right weapon to handle what they can't, in those situations.

[Tykwa]

I'ma Shotgun type of guy I love the (almost) unlimited PP

[chibiLegolas]

Akaimizu's right. I use twin guns mainly for aggro.
I see some dangerous mob looking at a FO/HU in combat and I want to play decoy for the moment AND still be relatively safe, it's the job for twin guns! Mechguns draw aggro better, but I solely save mechguns for Mayalee Fury. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

SE2 isnt' reliable, but it's a nice added bonus. Mobility is a must for me. And sometimes, I just wanna shoot straight forward rather than a spread from crossbows. Cards are nice and all, but it's just too slow in certain situations.

[Sgt_Shligger]

On 2007-05-13 13:54, SolomonGrundy wrote:
cmon now. shiggy, card look a little ridiculous , n'est pas?



Cards SOUND a little ridiculous ;o

Cards own it up, all day long. Granted, I'm far away from the crowd.

[Hrith]

On 2007-05-13 08:43, akratic wrote:
Your inability to figure out how to use twin handguns well reveals your lack of skill and inability to adapt, not that of others.

But it was a nice description of how you like to play, which, after all, is all that matters.Using my own sentence as a smartass reply only proves you have no argument, and are just trolling.
If you have no argument, just don't post, it will save you the ridicule.

Especially since I did not describe for one second the way I play in my previous post, and also that I know exactly how good twin handguns are. Like I said, twin handguns are good in most situations, but there's always another gun type which is better for any situation.
For someone who has no argument, you could at least learn to read.

[Garanz-Baranz]

The Rifle has the fastest Rate Of Fire in game, not the Twin Handgun. The Rifle also has SE4.

Beside the Rifle, the Twin Handgun's hit per second rate is higher[second highest hit rate behind Mechgun, and about even with a Shotgun], and has Straffing Firing Sequence. It's damage per trigger[buton press] is greater then Rifle's single shot, but the Rifle fires about 50% faster then the Twin Handgun per 'trigger'.

Both are fair weapons, but only Shotgun can get an Axe damage-worth shot on one target. But regardlesss, Every Weapon has it's purpose. And everybody has preferences.

[akratic]

On 2007-05-15 02:09, Hrith wroteUsing my own sentence as a smartass reply only proves you have no argument, and are just trolling.
If you have no argument, just don't post, it will save you the ridicule.

Especially since I did not describe for one second the way I play in my previous post, and also that I know exactly how good twin handguns are. Like I said, twin handguns are good in most situations, but there's always another gun type which is better for any situation.
For someone who has no argument, you could at least learn to read.

Haha. Look at you. your internet panties are all in a bunch.

So you're not impressed by the DPS. That's about your mental state, not about the DPS. You think the range doesn't keep a player out of harm's way. You are not very good at using them. You don't care about fast aggro pulling. That's about your selfishness and inability to be a team player (i'm just throwing that in there for kicks).

So to summarize:

1. You think they are not best for point blank damage. No one claims they are. Nice straw man.
2. You think they can't work at a safe distance. Well that just has to be because you suck. For from a medium distance, they offer mobility, high damage, and aggro pulling that no other gun can. You can accomplish all that while keeping the hunters and forces freed up. Pulling the attention of all the deljabans (say) while you can easily dodge the megid they toss at you, while peppering them repeatedly with confuse (even level 2 is good enough for this), and while doing a lot of damage is good.
3. You confuse your preferences for facts.
4. You're probably fat and ugly. And lonely, too.

[amtalx]

Can we all just get along...

On Topic: Photon Whips FTW!!!

[SolomonGrundy]

flame war does not = prodcutive discussion about twins....at least try and keep ad hominem (personal) attacks out of the thread.

In reference Akaimizus comment about SE duration (in this case silence), I'm satisfied with SE2 for twins purposes. when I'm focusing on a single (spellcasting) target - like an ogohmon, I find the stick rate (and reapply rate) to be sufficient to shut down a single, non-buffed enemy. If they are buffed, all bets are off - go with damage, it's the only thing that will reliably shut down the enemy.

Garanz-Baranz: mechguns have the fastest rate of fire. Rifles are not 50% faster than twins. they are at most, 25% faster. I'd bet, though, that if you took the higher ATP of a rifle, AND the higher fire rate, the DPS would come out close to twin. You'd be trading mobility for range, and improved SE.

I found twins to be pretty superior in regards to dealing damage vs dangerous opponents. Enemies mostly close the distance, unless there is something preventing them, and once they are close, it's hard to shake 'em, as you are drawing aggro by firing on them.

[Akaimizu]

I guess the thing about Silence, is that often Confuse not only shuts them down, it also has the added bonus of the chance they attack each other with the attack. It goes into that act of what hits a monster as opposed to the player. My main issue of Silence is often tied to what does it do for me, that Confuse doesn't?

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-15 11:36, Akaimizu wrote:
I guess the thing about Silence, is that often Confuse not only shuts them down, it also has the added bonus of the chance they attack each other with the attack. It goes into that act of what hits a monster as opposed to the player. My main issue of Silence is often tied to what does it do for me, that Confuse doesn't?



well, truly, not much. At first I thought that confused enemies could still cast resta/shifta (self buffs), and only silence would shut that down. However confuse seems to make these enemies unable to cast these spells, so...

Silence/confuse got nerfed in the same way fire was usurped by virus. At least fire is still usefull in the HIVE/unsafe passage/FFF

And STILL I'll be leveling ground twin handguns. take that you stupid go varha!
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