PSU-PS2: Fortegunner experts, rate my equipment? =/

[Genoa]

As a Fortegunner, I replaced Laser Cannon for Twin Handguns because I wanted another SE weapon, and I didn't have a fire-type, and I feel burn as a need =0
So if someone can find me a good reason to bump something for Laser Cannon, please explain http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

lvl.51 F-Beast fG5
Weapons:
Buccaneer 10%ground (rising strike) w/ Drumline (Plasma Fury lv5)
Shiratsuno-zashi 12%light (shunbu shouren-zan) w/ Cugo Mamba (Yak Megiga lv21)
Phantom (grav shot lv4)
Shigga Bines (Barada Yoga lv13)
Gur Missal (Boma Riga lv15)
Deathmaker (Twin Burn lv2)
Armor:
Sori-Senba
sta/mind + Mega/power + Mega/Rainbow + Mega/stamina

I picked Rising Strike and Shunbu shouren-zan since they give knock back quickly, that way I can get things off me while I spray my mech or crossbow

I picked Yak megiga because it sticks a very nice infect on multiples, which I thought was nice http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Plasma Fury because things that require shocking usually run up to you, and mechs help stop enemies very quickly when rained upon.

Gravity Shot ... well, I needed something with silence, and for those tech-casters who can hurt me from a decent distance... it's nice to shut them up from as far as possible.

Got Barada Yoga to confuse multiple enemies at once, and to deal a hefty amount of damage in HIVE.

Okay, so Boma Riga was to decimate dragon runs ~_~ yeah yeah, it has good SE too, I was somewhat dissapointed in my choice, but it's usefull for now.

Twin burn because I like burn :3 and for those who can't be infected, thou shalt be burnt.

Sori Senba because Neudiaz is back baby! I just have to be carefull in HIVE :<... but it's working nicely in Neudiaz, also I the four slots is no joke.
Sta/Mind, well duh...
Mega/Power, I haven't found it a problem missing. 251 ATA for a beast fG is great, I don't see the need for ATA boosing yet.
Mega/Rainbow because i'm usually not in as much danger of physical contact, plus being a beast kinda makes me tanky to begin with :3 but MST is only 40, so I need that elemental defense.
Mega/Stamina... heh, 17 endurance is great. Every once in a while Megid gets me, and Ice doesn't last all that long. I find it more usefull than Me/Restore. 1/2 the time there's a force anyways. I don't solo >_>

So.... any suggestions? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Mio]

I would work a bit on your bullets. I wouldnt suggest twin handguns if you plan to use both Rifles and Mechguns

[amtalx]

I would move your focus more towards rifles and less towards Twin Handguns. If you plan on playing for years to come, the A rank max will hurt you in the end. Leave the Twinies to Guntechers. As a Fortegunner, you are one of only 2 advanced classes that can even use rifles and the only class that can S rank them. Rifles and SE4 are our strength. As far as using Twin Handguns to spread SE, you're better off with using the Xbow. It has SE3 and you get to keep your mobility.

Other than that, you need to grind your bullets. Rifle and shotgun bullets in particular really need to be 21+. As rangers part of our job is laying SE4 on creatures with High HP and Med/High STA. That's what youll need your rifle bullets for. Shotgun is for raw damage and you're missing out on 25% of your damage potential by only having your bullet at 13.

Just as an extra piece of advice, I would try to focus on less weapon types. It kinda seems like you're trying to use every ranged weapon at your disposal. My personal approach is to pick a few and really make them excellent and get all my bullets to 30. That's just a preference though, so take it or leave it. Just to give you an idea of my palette, here is what I use.

Phantom
Phantom
Shigga Bines
Shigga Bines
Gur Neda
Thunder Cannon

I have a some bullets at 30 and the rest are around 24-27. I use my rifles for inflicting SE4 on large creatures like Jarbas and whatnot. Switch to Shotguns for raw damage against small mobs and creatures I've already landed an SE on. The Gur Neda and Thunder Cannon (w/Mayalee Prism) are for crowd control.

[panzer_unit]

Is that your full set of armor and skills?

* You can get cheap B-rank shop armors for all the different elements, and bring the 2 that apply best when you go on missions. In Mad Beasts I'm either wearing Teroline or Hardline for pretty much the whole block, either lightning or fire is going to be more of a threat in every fight from one end to the other.

* You really need a high SE burn... Burning Shot would hit SE3 fastest. Dark is okay as a low-level SE because it starts as a 25% DOT, and does the same damage per tick no matter what level. Burn really works best as a strong effect. On the other hand dark won't stick reliably to large creatures until SE4 I think.

* Why bother with both sabers and daggers, especially if all you know are the redundant skills? Daggers are much better for gunners BTW. Rising Strike and Shunbu are about the same bread and butter... but Gravity Strike is AWFUL capped at level 10 (if not awful period) while Buten is awesome.

* Why learn only one element for each gun? Any mission you do you've got 2 guns that will do well for damage and the rest are good only for SE... if that. My suggestion is to know at least 2 (opposing) elements for each weapon type, or maybe half-sets that stack nicely... burn/shock/silence or freeze/infect/confuse.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-05-17 08:17 ]</font>

[Mio]

I say it one more time:

Dont level Twin Handguns! They're not good at anything, there's a better weapon for anything:
First Person = Rifle
Spread Status Effect = Crossbow
Damage at Middle Range = Mechgun

If you want to level few bullets I would do these:

Rifle: Fire, Ice, Dark, Killer
Crossbow: Fire, Ice, Lighting, Zagenga
Mechgun: Fire, Ice, Light, Ground
Shotgun: Ice
Grenade Launcher: Ice

That's 14 bullets that lets you be great in any stage of the game, if you dont want to bother leveling more. ( I have 22+ bullets Myself )

[amtalx]

Mio's post about bullets is just about on the money. I would add Lighting to the Shotgun list though. One problem with Ice shotguns is that the freeze is weak (Lvl 2.) As soon as to freeze something with a shotgun, 9/10 you'll just end up cancelling it with the next shot. Shock doesn't have that problem. However, you could solve all your problems by just applying your SEs with the Xbow and using Lightning on that instead. I'm just a Shotty kinda guy though so the Xbow solution won't work for me. Just a thought since shock is great on small mobs.

I would also add Ground or Dark to Grenade launchers. Grenade launchers should never be used to apply SE but they do get Lvl 3 at 21+. Get Dark because throwing virus around while keeping enemies pinned down is never a bad idea. I also added ground just because it has a good elemental modifier and will deal some pretty decent damage at high levels.

[Theoderic]

If you are dead set in using Crossbow, you might want to stick to Sabers and Rising Strike. I find that to be the most reliable way to keep certain enemies from staying in your face for tool long, and the normal Saber attacks while rotating around enemies can keep you a bit out of range for some of the smaller, faster creatures, actually allowing you to get the knock-up hit off.

My palette is as follows:

Gur Missal
Cugo Mamba/Buccaneer
Deathmaker
Deathmaker
Cugo Mamba/Buccaneer
Phantom

I have a Buccaneer of each element, and switch them in and out according to what types I am fighting in those areas. If we get the Frying Pan, I will drop my Fire Buccaneer for it. I think it has 35% Fire and will cause Burn Lv3, so I think it might be a bit more effective than a 50% Fire A rank Saber, and you won't necessarily HAVE to have Fire on the Crossbow it's coupled with (makes it a bit more convenient to use Shock/Silence on this Crossbow). I personally think that Crossbows, coupled with the PP reduction that Fortegunners have, assists in longevity, and will allow for a higher rate of status application. I hear about how great Shotguns are, and how high the potential damage may be, but I also believe that the fewer shots fired by the Crossbow make it more reliable, because those 3 shots can land on one enemy from a further distance than the 5 from Shotgun. Maybe Beasts and Male Casts would benefit more from Shotguns than other classes due to the high attack, but I doubt it matters too much from Female Cast on down in the ATP department. Shotguns do last for a while, but if SEGA decides to release the PP regeneration unit Online, then Crossbows will again be giving the Shotgun some competition.

Off of that debate, I might replace one of my Twins for another Rifle. I feel that Twins are good for certain things, maybe for flying bosses, and I do think that the damage being done by bullets of the same element are stronger on the Twins. I welcome the Zalure PA with open arms to my addition of 21+ bullets, and I think every Fortegunner might want to invest in this one PA. I do not see how the Twins do any thing unique though, because I believe that at some point, S Rifles will outdamage A Twins of the same level and element used. Also, Crossbows have more longevity, and apply higher status at a better rate, so Twins serve very little purpose other than Zalure and using them for damage where status isn't needed (bosses).

Grenade Launcher I think is the best situational weapon of all. Some people like Mayalee Prism for crowds, as the hit counter is infinite, but I would much rather use a normal bullet to conserve PP. I also use this thing for De Ragan, Go Dolva, Jarba groups, and pretty much any large enemies, or group of large enemies. Those Grass Assassin guys in AoI might be easily dealt with by high level Earth Grenades. Maybe Fire on De Rol Le. Another boss weapon, just like Twins.

Rifle should be the staple to any Fortegunner, as we are the only job that can use S Rank of them. SE4 is a bonus, and I think that using this on regular enemies during certain moments can make this weapon shine more than anything. Keep Jarba infected, Keep Burn on mobs of SEED, Confuse/Silence those spellcasters easier... There might be some creatures introduced later that can only be affected by SE4, and Protransers and Fortegunners have those made readily available to them as Traps, but having the Bullets to do it makes it somewhat less expensive.

I have all the available PAs for every weapon on my palette, because at any time, SEGA can host an event, or introduce reskinned enemies of varying elements. I have a feeling we might get an Ice event, and I think maybe an Ice De Ragan might be available. I also like spamming Light Grenades on that small group of Bel Pannon / Del Jaban that appear on the 3rd block of LL, or on SEED Vitace. I love the damage and the knockback/knockdown/stumble the Grenades do, and the area of effect is generous. I wish so much that the Laser Cannon could hit multiple targets on one enemy, and Grenade only hit one target per enemy, and the both of them to have no limit to the number of hits, as this would fit more into what kind of weapons they reflect, and would give more use, and allow for more strategy, but I'm getting off topic with something SEGA will ignore.

I think you should try some of the weapons out, maybe try the same bullet on each gun and level them to 21. Not something easily done, but at least you could compare between some things, like which left handed gun would you prefer over another, whether Shotguns are your thing or you would prefer Crossbows, how many Twins should I have on palette, etc.. I do agree that you should use less weapon types, and specialize on using a few. I've seen great staying power on a Mechgun with the PP Save unit, and it really does do great damage to a single target. But at the end of the day, don't let us experienced Fortegunners dictate it to you, but go the road we went and try it all out. Only then will you know your limits and potential, and that, coupled with your style of play, will better determine what weapons you should focus on.

Oh, Try getting different kinds of Crimson Line. Best MST we can get. Dilette Line has the same, and 2 End. so if you can get that, by all means, go for it. Storm Line has worse stats, but it has 4 slots, and I think a Sori / Mind will counter the MST loss. you should upgrade kind of in that fashion. Hope your pockets can handle it. May you have the best of luck

[Zarode]

Guess I'll post, since I concider myself one of the finest Fortegunners on PC/PS2. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Most of the people here are right on the money, but something I don't see is Shotguns.

Shotguns are the absolute most damaging weapon in the game, and we get full advantage of them. Level those bullets, and prepare to see at least 1k damage. I do around 1.5k per volly on my Ice Shotgun (lv30, it's a weak bullet though).

But everything else here is true. And stay away from Twin Handguns. We got better weapons then those...

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-17 08:47, amtalx wrote:
I would also add Ground or Dark to Grenade launchers. Grenade launchers should never be used to apply SE but they do get Lvl 3 at 21+. Get Dark because throwing virus around while keeping enemies pinned down is never a bad idea. I also added ground just because it has a good elemental modifier and will deal some pretty decent damage at high levels.


I've got fire and dark grenades at lv 26 or so now, and I've only ever seen the fire ones apply their SE to a large monster.

I bought grav recently for dealing with caster formations (stop them from shooting NOW with the knockback, maybe stick them with silence for later too) and element damage on Grinna Bete (dark doesn't seem to stick the SE to anything big).

Despite the investment I've put into them, I'd considering dropping the dark grenades next time there's some skill I strongly feel that I need. All I really need is any two shots so I don't ever have my element % as a penalty... right now the only positive use I can think of putting my dark grenades to is extra damage on Svaltus.

[Mio]

oh I prefer the ice grenade because i mostly use it on de ragan.

shotty is nice, i prefer ice because i mostly use it on fire ele mobs and deal 1500+ damage, or 3000 if well positioned

[Genoa]

wow, very nice info :3. I'll ditch the Twin Handguns for another rifle.
And the comment on getting more bullets for the same weapon, I kinda planned on that, but I mean... I'm still new with the gunner class, so my bullet levels are low, I need to stick with one for each weapon on my palette for now, so I can level those up high enough for usefullness, intead of having a bunch of low level ones that wont' stick high SE's for a long time =/

But I completely agree with most of these points. I'll get another rifle, but i'm keeping Ground for one of them, should I get Fire for the other? Seeing it has SE4 and can stick to the Virus immune creatures, my crossbow is 21 infect, therefore I don't need to have another Virus sticker =/.

[amtalx]

Personally I have all the bullets for my Rifle. Without a doubt you will need Ice, Fire, and Dark. Even though you have 21+ infect for your Xbow, there are creatures that are only vulnerable to SE4. Also, the thing that makes us rangers so good at landing SEs is the firing rate of Rifles. You lose a bit of that advantage with Xbows. Besides Xbows are for spamming SEs, not landing it on a single creature as with rifles. Everyone likes seeing Virus applied to Jarbas (particularly when they are 100+).

[Genoa]

I guess i can get Virus on rifle later, but for now traps are still nifty for Jarba's.

[ashley50]

Sori-senba is a BAD choice for an Armor IMO. Crimson Line will be fine if you don't have Ganna Line.

And since you're a Ranger, Focus on Rifles as it's your MAIn asset throughout the whole time playing as a fG. And carry at least4-5 rifles at a time even though they might be B Rank rifles. I Myself rarely use Phantoms anymore, yeah they look cool but suffer from low PP so I chose Falgohoh over Phantom and it recharges Cheaper and Faster. (ice/Fire/Dark)

Twin handguns is not a bad idea but I don't use them much and carry a minimum of 3 sets of them. I usually use them when out numbered and Sniping is out of the options. I use Ryo-Rayratores as they ghave 1.4k PP on +10 grinds, their ATP might be low but the large PP reactor makes up for the damage. (Freeze/Burn/Infect/Shock/Grav/Light)

Shotguns...I just use Shigga bines and carry 1-2 sets of it. I use all bullet types but the types that I can recommend are Shock and Ice.

I cannot say anything on the Crossbow/Mechgun category as I don't use them, I'll stick to Handguns (yeah, i know they're lame...but I like them).

Grenades/Laser cannon, I barely use them and last time i used them was on De ragan. Like other fGs have said Ice...

[panzer_unit]

I think the only times you actually care about Virus bullets would be weapons restricted to low SE levels (infect is 25~30%, burn is 10~15%) ... the only burn-immune targets I can think of are generic little robots (which don't need high SE) and svaltus (who needs SE4). The rest of the time, you're probably best off applying burn as frequently as possible because it does damage faster.

Virus traps are popular just for maximizing damage per trap, since you can't carry many at all.

So: do you hate Svaltus badly enough to level a rifle bullet to 21 just to do max damage + DOT? Your call.

Grenades: in addition to the dragons (fire, lightning, neutral) you're going to use these on the following targets to flip them over or stagger-lock 'em for your team ... I'll let you make a decision as to what elements will serve you best.

Sendillian (dark, can burn and infect)
Worms (fire and earth, can burn and infect)
Vanda (fire, can burn and infect)
Gohmon (ice, can burn and infect)

Seed Vance/Vitace (dark, can burn)
Kamatoze (ice and light, can burn)
Kogg (light, can burn)
Gol Dova (fire, can burn)
Polahorva (lightning, can burn)

Svaltus (light, no burn)
Dura (fire, no burn)
Drilla Griena (fire, no burn)
Grinna Bete (lightning, no burn)

[SolomonGrundy]

Virus 4 works on svaltus, the horse thngie with him kog-nad, tengogh, and grinning Beta's.

It is also useful against the robotic grove boss. Aganha Deganna (or whatever). I would say virus rifle bullets are essential for a Fortegunner.

Know what else is oddly useful? light type machine gun bullets to deal with Bel pannons. the light sticks nicely, and many of their attacks are tech-based (barta, damdiga, and thier dark-infused 'rush'). you can really spread the confuse around with it.

[Genoa]

I like the light mechgun bullet idea, I'll probably do that later. For now i'm enjoying shock. But I see your point for confusion spread.
Also, I know Sori-senba's somewhat of a bad idea for an armor... but i'm only 53 fG7, so my Defense isn't high enough for Crimson Line. I'm no cast >=0

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-18 15:20, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Virus 4 works on svaltus, the horse thngie with him kog-nad, tengogh, and grinning Beta's.

It is also useful against the robotic grove boss.


It works, but not better than virus traps and grenade stagger-locking for the handful of svaltus one runs in to, SE4 burn shot for the flammable guys, and a good Dark% melee weapon for Deganha.

I don't think it's worth the time spent learning. Not for rifle. The case for SE4 dark on bows is more favorable.

[amtalx]

Umm, no. For SE, Rifle>Bow.

[Niloklives]

the other reason you might want virus over burn is that virus will stack with ice while burn will not. sticking virus and ice on a svaltus or grinna takes them out of the fight while wtill letting the damage pile on. I second the notion that fire ice and dark or the most important bullets for your rifle. Killer shos handy for robots, but that's about it. (still worth getting IMO). other SEs you can put on an xbow.

Shock is a must have for the Xbow. Burn/Virus not as important since most things you're spreading SEs to are likely dying too fast for the DoTs to mean much. Ice is ok just for damage, and i'd get light because confuse is handy against anything that can cast. I haven't tooled with zagenga, but many people swear by it.

As for melee: pick a weapon type and a single PA and stick with it. gravity strike is absolutely useless for you as it does nothing to keep the mobs back. Either way definately keep leveling your bullets. they only really shine once they hit 21. good luck and have fun.

[imfanboy]

I've talked to more than a few people in the last week who have both bow and rifle, and they all say the same thing - "Bows and rifles apply at about the same rate. I don't have any preference."

You'd THINK that because rifles fire faster, that's not the case, but other people's practical experience says that rifles and bows apply at about the same rate. Bows also have the benefit of ignoring armor - the more I do S2's, the more I notice it.

[Niloklives]

I'm not sure where that comes into a foregunner topic...but ok. bows are powerful as all heck, but he;s using rifles which are alos good weapons and there's no need to cloud the conversation with what is as of now, abstract commentary. Not trying to be mean.

[amtalx]

Haha, indeed it is a Fortegunner topic. No Bows! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I guess the experience depends on the user. Personally, I've always been able to apply faster with Rifles. After all, that is what we do. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[9lotus]

If you have the patience to level crossbow bullets, I'd recommend getting the crossbow ult PA, and some elemental crossbow bullets for SE. Crossbows can be your best weapon in terms of DPS, so I think you should get some crossbows.

I don't see a use for shotgun or laser cannon, you can do without those

Get at least burn rifle, killer shot if you plan on doing missions with robots

also, you don't really need silence, confuse works just as well



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 9lotus on 2007-05-21 23:35 ]</font>

[Hrith]

You don't see a use for shotguns? what a good Fortegunner you must be http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[amtalx]

Indeed...I would recommend paying a little more attention to the weapons you can S rank. Like Shotguns a Laser Cannons...

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-18 22:31, amtalx wrote:
Umm, no. For SE, Rifle>Bow.


Trap > Rifle > Bow

My suggestion is that you can use traps alone to cover virus, because you run into few enough opponents where you would want to hit with that SE instead of fire, killer shot, or earth grenades.

The reason I said it would make more sense for a bow-user to learn dark is because 1) it's stupidly easy 2) you also get a huge elemental bonus/penalty that makes it worth knowing elements in order to always grab the bonus, or at least be able to avoid using the wrong one.

[Niloklives]

I'll take a bow/rifle on desert goliath, thanks. there are WAY too may grinnas there to depend on traps exclusively. and I really don't like trapping un;ess it seems an imperitive as I think 2.5k for 5 traps you can't even finsh a big room with is a bit too pricy...

I mean if the prices were lower and the carrying capacity were higher...I'd say traps were a more viable tool..as is, it's just feels like a means to get rid of extra money.

[panzer_unit]

I said Earth Grenades, and I meant them for Desert Goliath. I'd rather do 3~4 time the damage of a rifle to those grinnas, while rendering one or even two of them completely unable to move or attack.

If I did want to infect those things I'd sure as hell do it with traps 'cause IMO no fortegunner has the time to waste trying to tag it with a rifle... I've been on teams for Desert Goliath S where none of the other gunners realize how effective grenade launchers are against grinnas, and people die so often with nobody pinning the things down that it goes from being pathetic in b1 to really funny by the end of the huge grinna room in b2. LOL DID SOMEONE DIE AGAIN?!?!

Of course, I haven't been to Goliath S since lv70 or so. Maybe max level and max job ranks makes it survivable enough that it's worth it to try tagging things with virus. On the other hand I probably won't go back with my high-level guy until Desert Goliath S2 comes along and I bet it's going to be exactly like the crazy deathtrap it was the last time I was there.

[amtalx]

I've found that landing SEs on large mob creatures isn't too bad. I can do it with surprising regularity. 7 to 10 shots will usually do the trick. Of course, there will always be those stubborn creatures that REFUSE to take what I'm giving them. I rely on my rifles and only use traps when I know a group of clustered enemies will appear. Besides, using traps won't get my remaining bullets to 30 in preparation for AoI. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Niloklives]

I don't die there, so it's a non issue. I can see the usefulness of grenades there, but keeping them pinned WHILE infecting them would clearly be the ideal solution. I just feel the cost and carrying capacity of traps makes them a bit too precious to make them readily accessable...nades are awesome but they get costly as well if you're using them to handle half the mobs in any given area. I don't like the idea of money being the be all of problem solvers, but to each his own as it were.

[panzer_unit]

I've got dark grenades at 21 and I don't think they infect anything big.

[9lotus]

You don't see a use for shotguns? what a good Fortegunner you must be

Indeed. Go with crossbows. They beat shotguns in damage, SE, and mobility. I don't see why you'd pick an inferior weapon.

And laser cannons are probably a fG's least useful weapon

[Edgecrusher]

^ I dont think you understand, crossbows do not beat shotguns when it comes to damage. They do have better DPS, SE and mobility but not damage. Also fortegunner does not get S-rank crossbow's, but they will have S-rank shotguns. Maybe you should go guntecher. Shotguns ftw.

[9lotus]

They do have better DPS, SE and mobility but not damage. Also fortegunner does not get S-rank crossbow's, but they will have S-rank shotguns. Maybe you should go guntecher. Shotguns ftw.

Damage is all about DPS o_O

If you like shotguns, that's cool, but unless you really like shotgun, I don't see any reason to use it

Jumping from 9* to 12* shotgun, you get a whopping 25 ATP. S-rank in shotgun doesn't make much of a difference.

And for that matter, only fortetechers get S-rank bows, but both guntechers and protransers are better with bows. Who gets what S-ranks doesn't really matter =

[Tsavo]

Yeah, much as I hate to say it CB > than most else when it comes to damage dealing. Good damage, spread, fast firing rate, strafing ablitiy, and SE3 is just craziness. The lag after every shot and the need to reposition constantly kills shotties. Only ranger I could see using them over crossbows is beast fG and I still have yet to meet one. That said, use what you like. This game isn't all about damage after all.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tsavo on 2007-05-22 22:12 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Point-blanking isn't the only thing shotguns can do... 5-way spread FTW when you want to confuse or infect a room full of angry robots, or shock/freeze creatures that run or burrow everywhere.

They also do a good job wiping stuff out up close, but I think that's kind of secondary... crossbow's better suited for it with the mobility and being able to use knockdown PA attacks so you're not just going blow-for-blow.

[Edgecrusher]

What I meant was that the shotgun does more damage for each pull of the trigger but of course the crossbow shoots much faster. I like crossbow for times when its too dangerous to stand around reloading.

[Genoa]

I like my shotty, sorry >_> Finally got 5-way confuse shots http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif it's pretty handy not only for damage, but making a bunch of mobs hit eachothers while I still spam shotty :3

Don't get me wrong I like my Crossbow too, but I won't be able to S-rank them, so depending on it alone isn't going to save me. Besides, Shotty PP doens't drain as fast which helps.

And wtf with the Bow/Rifle arguement towards SE? This is mah fG :< gtf off GT debates.

[amtalx]

MegamanX makes a good point. In a year or two when more S ranks are floating around, the A rank in Xbows is really gonna hurt you in damage. At that point the "Xbow for DPS" argument will be out the window. That being said, in the future: Shotguns for DPS. Xbows for mobility and SE spamming.

[Niloklives]

Grinded A rank Xbows in the not too distant future...I wouldn't be suprised if they broke the 400atp mark which until S xbows and the appropriate grinders come out, will outclass S ranks of course S ranks may also have other abilities attached to them, so its kind of a tough argument to make. in either case, FGs have access to xbows for a reason and complaining about who gets what S rank at this point is kinda moot.

on a related but seperate note, and not trying to get into a GT debate...GTs and PTs are getting S rank bows come AoI - this is because they ARE better suited to use bows than FTs(which just clouds the whole S rank issue I know) I'm only making this point because of what 9lotus said.

I agree xbows serve a different purpose than shotguns - but xbows are quite good at filling in for shotguns for people who don't want to pick up another weapon type. the same cannot be said about shotguns replacing x bows.

[amtalx]

The whole S rank issue wont be a factor for years, which was part of my point. The concentration of players per weapons found really needs to go up. Personally I plan on following this game in the same manner as I followed PSO. Until the end.

But for right now, you're right. If you're going to pick one and only play for a few months go with Xbows. If you've already picked on, just stick with it. On the other hand if you'll be around like me...have fun watching me out-damage you by 1000 if you chose Xbows. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Niloklives]

the whole argument for xbows is dps. not per shot. per shot I agree, shotty ftw. but dps the xbow is gonna take that contest hands down. Either way.

[Eeyore]

Why would per shot damage be good for in PvE? I kind get why people want burst damage for PvP, but there is no PvP.

[Niloklives]

the faster something dies, the les chance it has to hurt you...you finish missions faster which means you get the rewards faster and do more runs in a set period of time meaning more rewards. that and why stand there and shoot more than you have to?

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-23 21:25, Eeyore wrote:
Why would per shot damage be good for in PvE? I kind get why people want burst damage for PvP, but there is no PvP.


... same reason you'd want it in PvP?

It's pretty simple: if a monster moves around really fast or burrows or knocks you over whenever you get close, you can't just chase it around point-blanking shot after shot with an Xbow. Damage per hit counts for a lot more than rate of fire in those situations.

[amtalx]

On 2007-05-23 20:40, NIloklives wrote:
the whole argument for xbows is dps. not per shot. per shot I agree, shotty ftw. but dps the xbow is gonna take that contest hands down. Either way.



As far as I have seen, even though the Xbow fires faster the Shotgun still has the edge for DPS. However, vulnerability is the price Shotgun users have to pay for damage. The disparity in firing rate isnt that dramatic and the 2 extra bullets make up the difference. Although without S ranks, the Shotgun advantage is pretty much negligible.

[Mio]

the shotgun realy advantage is the ability to hit more than 5 targets. When a bullet is between two targets, the damage is taken by both. So if you shot between two target almost point blank, you get 10 hits.

But that need a lot of positioning

[amtalx]

On 2007-05-24 08:19, Mio wrote:
the shotgun realy advantage is the ability to hit more than 5 targets. When a bullet is between two targets, the damage is taken by both. So if you shot between two target almost point blank, you get 10 hits.

But that need a lot of positioning



Indeed. The positioning does take a bit of getting used to. Works wonders on small mobs though. They tend to cluster, so getting the correct spacing and positioning isn't too hard.

[Genoa]

Discussion went from
1. Rifle > Twin handgun
2. Rifle vs. Bow's SE
3. Shotty vs. Crossbow....

... <_>

1. I picked Rifle > Twinhandgun already
2. Fortegunner >_>
3. If you're seriously going to try to argue that Crossbow would be a better choice over Shotty for a fG -_- then gtfo, Crossbow is great and all, but it's definately GT's ftw weapon. Maybe right now you can make your Crossbow/Shotty arguements, but when more S-ranks come out, there won't be any more controversy.

[amtalx]

On 2007-05-24 18:44, MegamanX wrote:
3. If you're seriously going to try to argue that Crossbow would be a better choice over Shotty for a fG -_- then gtfo, Crossbow is great and all, but it's definately GT's ftw weapon. Maybe right now you can make your Crossbow/Shotty arguements, but when more S-ranks come out, there won't be any more controversy.


I wouldn't count the Xbow out altogether. Just don't use it as a DPS weapon. The reason I say this is that I have almost all of my Shotgun bullets at 30 and I'm looking for something to do. The Xbow will be better at spamming SEs than a Shotgun because of SE3 and the increased firing rate.

[Genoa]

exactly, infact I think the idea of even comparing weapon to other weapons is somewhat pointless seeing it all depends on the situation, the class type using it, the character race using it, and the person's actual skill using it.

What we can argue over, is PA's and the different weapons of the same type. <_>

[9lotus]

Crossbow is great and all, but it's definately GT's ftw weapon.

That's not true though. Fortegunners are better than GTs at using crossbows. At lv10 job, GT gets a 94% ATP modifier, but fortegunner gets 108% + 3% if you're a CAST. At level 80, that's already around a 100 ATP difference. This gap only widens more at level 90 and beyond.

Fortegunners also get much higher ATA.

A fortegunner using a 9* crossbow will outdamage any GT, S-rank or not.


but when more S-ranks come out, there won't be any more controversy.

There's only a measly 25 ATP difference between 9* and 12* shotguns.

I don't see why anyone is raving about S-rank shotguns for non-aesthetic reasons. They'll definitely look cool, but don't expect much extra damage.

In theory, maybe shotguns and crossbows have similar DPS. In practice, you will get hit in higher level missions if you use shotguns because they're slow and you have to stand still. The time spent getting hit, the time spent recovering from hits, is time that a crossbow user spends damaging monsters.

Maybe you spend time positioning yourself or dodging attacks to get a good shotgun blast off. Since crossbows have mobility, the crossbow user can move himself AND attack. The shotgun user cannot. The time spent dodging/moving without shooting is lost damage. Crossbow users can attack continuously, shotgun users cannot. Attacking continuously = more damage.

Crossbow and shotgun release about the same number of bullets in a given timeframe, but each crossbow bullet gets SE3. Crossbow has the advantage in this area too.

[panzer_unit]

You can't get hit if your target's shocked or frozen... 'cause of course we're back to ignoring that shotguns are REALLY good at filling a room with statuses. You don't _have_ to use 'em at point blank on every shot.

You often don't get hit if you knock their ATA down with the shotgun ultimate PA (ironically... or not) and pop a zodiaride. Even for my Cast fortegunner, pumping evade and dropping enemy ATA saves me from some rolling around on the ground and blowing as much money on mates when I'm solo.

[9lotus]

You can't get hit if your target's shocked or frozen... 'cause of course we're back to ignoring that shotguns are REALLY good at filling a room with statuses. You don't _have_ to use 'em at point blank on every shot.

but i've been saying all this time, crossbows are better at doing that

Crossbow and shotgun release about the same number of bullets in a given timeframe, but each crossbow bullet gets SE3. Crossbow has the advantage in this area too.

I am not saying you can't do anything with the shotgun. I am saying that anything the shotgun can do, the crossbow does better.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 9lotus on 2007-05-25 07:01 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-25 06:58, 9lotus wrote:
Crossbow and shotgun release about the same number of bullets in a given timeframe, but each crossbow bullet gets SE3. Crossbow has the advantage in this area too.

I am not saying you can't do anything with the shotgun. I am saying that anything the shotgun can do, the crossbow does better.


Nobody's made the point that you don't need to avoid attacks if the target's not attacking, so I did. Shotgun works well, it's able to support itself adequately for statuses. What crossbow can or can't do is irrelevant there.

I'm not arguing anything else, since I don't have any crossbows... I can't use them for enough of the classes I play to be worth grinding the skills. Also they're really ugly, while shotguns look cool.

[9lotus]

Again, I didn't say shotguns can't do anything well. I'm just saying that in the same situations, crossbows are better.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 9lotus on 2007-05-25 08:50 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-24 23:49, 9lotus wrote:
In theory, maybe shotguns and crossbows have similar DPS. In practice, you will get hit in higher level missions if you use shotguns because they're slow and you have to stand still.


Read the thread much? Here's what I'm arguing about, duh.

You won't get hit if the target's shocked or frozen and it usually is. Failing that you can set it up so you block a pretty good number of attacks (even as a Cast) by nerfing the enemy's ATA with a shotgun attack and pumping your EVP with Zodiaride. I know this stuff for a fact 'cause I use shotguns a lot.

So your argument here blows and we're left with YOUR assertion that maybe shotguns and crossbows have similar DPS.

[9lotus]

You won't get hit if the target's shocked or frozen and it usually is. Failing that you can set it up so you block a pretty good number of attacks (even as a Cast) by nerfing the enemy's ATA with a shotgun attack and pumping your EVP with Zodiaride. I know this stuff for a fact 'cause I use shotguns a lot.

In all the time your character spends in a block animation, the extra time it takes to nerf enemy ATA, you can be strafing and attacking with a crossbow. So no, your damage does not match up to a crossbow.



If fired continously with no interruption, with all bullets hitting, shotguns and crossbows have similar DPS. However, you do not get to do that with shotguns. Positioning yourself? It takes time, and that means lost damage. Trying to freeze/shock enemies? Unless you only fight fire or ground monsters, you could be doing more damage with the right element. Lowering enemy ATA? Relying on blocking spends time.

With crossbows, you can mostly just strafe around and keep firing. Hence, more damage.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 9lotus on 2007-05-25 09:02 ]</font>

[Hrith]

Learn to use shotguns, maybe?
Crossbow is clearly behind in damage, crossbows are only useful for superior SE on a Fortegunner.

[9lotus]

Learn to use shotguns, maybe?
Crossbow is clearly behind in damage, crossbows are only useful for superior SE on a Fortegunner.

No, you are wrong, go away if you have nothing useful to add, and all you can do is try to insult me

[Sophia]

so many errors in this thread its not even funny. well as for shotgun vs xbow damage hmm lets see.

as a female 80/10 fortegunner with solid power S and agtaride i do on lv 85 vanda merhas...
with lv 30 barada riga.. 325 per bullet on average with a shigga bines +0
with lv 30 yak riga.. 355 per bullet on average with a cugo mamba +0

shotgun fires 50 times/minute
xbow fires 80 times/minute

so for shotgun its (325 * 5) * 50 / 60 = 1354 dps
and for xbow its (355 * 3) * 80 / 60 = 1420 dps

The shotgun can hit 2x per bullet so with the right positioning you can get twice the damage but its not in all that many situations.
xbow grinds alot better than shotgun and the s rank shotguns arent much stronger than the 9* >>

and then theres zagenga.. 1800+ dps for xbow ^^

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-25 08:56, 9lotus wrote:
In all the time your character spends in a block animation, the extra time it takes to nerf enemy ATA, you can be strafing and attacking with a crossbow. So no, your damage does not match up to a crossbow.

What rank of missions are you doing where monsters are so slow that you can avoid all their attacks by strafing and STILL be at point blank all the time for DPS? You're talking about B ranks, right?

You must think you're the only person who's ever used a one handed gun or something.

EDIT: I'm not even disagreeing with Crossbow having a DPS advantage, just 9lotus making up all this stupid crap.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-05-25 10:56 ]</font>

[9lotus]

Firing the shotgun at maximum efficiency means you need to stand in place, repeatedly firing the shotgun. You will rarely get this opportunity. Moving around, repositioning yourself means you are not firing as often as possible. Therefore, you will not reach the DPS that Sophia calculated above.

Firing the crossbow at maximum efficiency means you shoot it whenever you can, and have all 3 bullets hit something. Moving around does not detract from your efficiency, you can still fire as often as possible. Since you only need to have 3 bullets hit, you also have more flexibility in what range you choose to attack at.

Also, when using a crossbow, you will generally be hit less often than you would if you were using a shotgun. Do you dispute that?

Crossbow DPS is clearly higher. Crossbow is better at applying SE. My original point still stands.

[Sophia]

meh, xbows and shotguns dont even have the same purpose, i only use shotgun when i know i can get lots of double hits. like on grinna betes.. you can easily get 10 hits if you hit from certain angles. you can also stand right in front of them and if you block their attacks you will reduce the recoil by.. half maybe? so thats potentially 4x as much damage xD
will outdamage a fortetechers diga on them ^^

[amtalx]

Pretty convincing arguments for the Xbow. I think my first choice will always be the Shotty though. Just doing some of my own research, I can't wait to see the grind stats on a Shigga Barec. Those probably won't be reasonably available for another 18 months though haha.

[Yoshiflash]

I think the mods should just instantly close any thread that turns into yet another shotty VS x-bow arguement.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-25 12:57, 9lotus wrote:
Firing the shotgun at maximum efficiency means you need to stand in place, repeatedly firing the shotgun. You will rarely get this opportunity.

Having to stand still is rarely a problem if you apply proper SE's. Usually monsters are happy to run to point blank for you to shoot them, other times they show up in such numbers that it's impossible not to land 5 hits if you just stand there firing.

Crossbow is clearly a better DPS weapon, and you still manage to look like a noob trying to prove it. GJ

[amtalx]

On 2007-05-25 13:44, Yoshiflash wrote:
I think the mods should just instantly close any thread that turns into yet another shotty VS x-bow arguement.



Theres nothing wrong with it as long as people make their point and leave at that. The problems begin when someone starts making personal attacks.

[Yoshiflash]

On 2007-05-25 14:28, amtalx wrote:

On 2007-05-25 13:44, Yoshiflash wrote:
I think the mods should just instantly close any thread that turns into yet another shotty VS x-bow arguement.



Theres nothing wrong with it as long as people make their point and leave at that. The problems begin when someone starts making personal attacks.



yer mom

[9lotus]

oh no, he called me a noob, i think he's trying to flame me because I don't like his precious shotgun


Having to stand still is rarely a problem if you apply proper SE's. Usually monsters are happy to run to point blank for you to shoot them, other times they show up in such numbers that it's impossible not to land 5 hits if you just stand there firing.

Take the same situation, and replace the shotgun with a crossbow. You get to move around, you still get spread fire, AND you get SE3. What's the point of using a shotgun?

Also, maybe you've noticed, but SE doesn't land 100%, far from it. And you only have SE2.

You're just rambling on about how great shotguns are at spreading SE, when it's been established that crossbows are better at it.

So, what are you trying to say? That you can stand in one place with a shotgun and fire away safely for a minute?

Post a video of yourself doing that in an S2 mission, and then shut up.

[panzer_unit]

I called you a noob because you don't know what you're talking about for using shotguns.

1. It DOES have a SE that hits 100% of the time. Whoops!

2. Wider spread and 5 bullets capable of multiple hits against bunched up targets... a shotgun's better suited for hitting more targets per shot, and I don't know the exact chances but SE2 seems to land effects often enough.

[9lotus]

1. It DOES have a SE that hits 100% of the time. Whoops!

lol, ATA debuff doesn't mean you won't get hit, far from it

and freeze and shock, the effects you were talking so much about, do not land anywhere near 100%.


2. Wider spread and 5 bullets capable of multiple hits against bunched up targets... a shotgun's better suited for hitting more targets per shot, and I don't know the exact chances but SE2 seems to land effects often enough.

You can potentially hit 2 more targets, but you also fire at about 1.66 times the speed of a crossbow. In the same amount of time, both weapons shoot out roughly the same number of bullets. However, crossbows get SE3.

I wouldn't consider SE2 sufficient in higher level missions. For example, try freezing Go Vahras with a shotgun. SE3 on the other hand will freeze them somewhat reliably.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 9lotus on 2007-05-25 15:49 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-25 15:42, 9lotus wrote:
lol, ATA debuff doesn't mean you won't get hit, far from it
...
You can potentially hit 2 more targets, but you also fire at about 1.66 times the speed of a crossbow. In the same amount of time, both weapons shoot out roughly the same number of bullets. However, crossbows get SE3.


When I'm soloing in S-rank missions and there's not all sorts of other stuff going on, the ATA debuff attack screws up monsters very noticeably. I pull it out, tag everything in sight, then go back to whatever gun I'm grinding skills on.

I'd love to be able to compare for myself. With shotguns, in any large fight you just aim towards most of the monsters and every shot will usually land a few hits and 1 or sometimes 2 statuses. From how often my SE3 grenades and handgun get their SE I think a crossbow might match that at best, and would take more effort to aim for multiple hits properly.

[Hrith]

On 2007-05-25 12:57, 9lotus wrote:
Firing the shotgun at maximum efficiency means you need to stand in place, repeatedly firing the shotgun. You will rarely get this opportunity.Now we know where you fail.

Crossbow is weaker, it's just a lot easier and safer to use, which apparently suits your style more.

Everything you said about the use of shotguns only applies to people who don't know how to use them properly, your point is null and void.

[9lotus]

Now we know where you fail.

Crossbow is weaker, it's just a lot easier and safer to use, which apparently suits your style more.

Everything you said about the use of shotguns only applies to people who don't know how to use them properly, your point is null and void.

Crossbows are not weaker though.

If you're referring to the double-damage case with the shotgun, it's not what generally happens. For that matter, laser cannons can potentially hit an infinite number of targets for good damage, but that doesn't make them the "strongest" weapon.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 9lotus on 2007-05-26 19:50 ]</font>

[Sophia]

On 2007-05-26 08:24, Hrith wrote:
Crossbow is weaker.


????? check my numbers again. or test it yourself. shotgun can only outdamage it with multihitting.

[Genoa]

Wow, again, it really depends on the situation.

1. Crossbow is one-handed, it goes well with a dagger/saber than has knock-back PA on first strike, therefore you can push em down and spam your Crossbow at them.

2. Crossbow has less PP than Shotty, and a Crossbow at 21+ DOES loose it's PP, it's true >_> Where as the Shotty even at 21+ doesn't loose nearly as much PP as Crossbow.

3. Crossbow has a higher SE, but hits 3 Bullets, where as Shotty can hit 5, The crossbow MIGHT be a better choice if you're by yourself and the enemies are quick and are after you, but the Shotty seems to work well in a party.

4. Both weapons are extremely good for SE's and Damage, but it really depends on your situation. There might be a time where you cannot take the chance of standing still to fire Shotty (would be quite rare, but whatever).

5. Fortegunners S rank Shottys and not Crossbow. Guntechers S rank Crossbows and not Shotty. Yes, a Fortegunner does better with Crossbows right now, but wtf people, Soon there will be badass Crossbows that only GT's will be able to use, and it will do more than the A-ranks shottys. But also, Fortegunners will have badass Shotguns that will do way more than Crossbows and only fG's will be able to use them >_>.

[amtalx]

On 2007-05-25 14:31, Yoshiflash wrote:

On 2007-05-25 14:28, amtalx wrote:

On 2007-05-25 13:44, Yoshiflash wrote:
I think the mods should just instantly close any thread that turns into yet another shotty VS x-bow arguement.



Theres nothing wrong with it as long as people make their point and leave at that. The problems begin when someone starts making personal attacks.



yer mom



Touche salesman