New York and several anti-gaming bills [Archive]

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Blitzkommando

May 31, 2007, 03:00 AM

Earlier this month, the New York state Senate approved a bill that would make rating labels on games mandatory in the state and establish an advisory council to appraise the job done by the Entertainment Software Rating Board and a parent-teacher program to identify kids at risk for violent behavior.

The bill passed the Senate and was moved to the Assembly in just four days. With momentum like that behind the issue, two more bills were introduced last week, one from the Senate, and another from the Assembly.

After his rating labels bill met with such swift acceptance, State Senator Andrew Lanza last week introduced S5941, which would make it a class E felony to sell or rent to minors any game including "depictions of depraved violence and indecent images."

The bill defines depraved violence as "any photographic, photorealistic, or other similar visual representation of the rape, dismemberment, physical torture, mutilation, or evisceration of a human body." Indecent images would be any such visual representation "of a person or a portion of the human body which depicts nudity, sexual conduct, or sadomasochistic abuse and which is harmful to minors."

The next day, some of Lanza's colleagues in the New York state Assembly offered their own take on his legislative efforts, as Assemblyman Joseph Lentol introduced A8696 (as reported on by Game Politics). The new bill included Lanza's felony proposition with the same definitions for depraved violence and indecent images, as well a proposal for establishing an advisory council as set forth in Lanza's original legislation from earlier this month. Assemblyman Sheldon Silver and Assemblywoman Audrey Pheffer cosponsored Lentol's bill.

One new passage in Lentol's bill would put restrictions on console sales. It would mandate that all home gaming systems sold in New York include parental lockout controls that will limit access to "certain content." The bill specifically excludes PCs and handheld devices.

A representative for Lentol told GameSpot that he proposed his bill because he felt Lanza's was too vague in areas, and he felt strongly about including the parental restriction requirement. As for why handhelds like the Nintendo DS and PlayStation Portable were excluded from the law, the representative said it was because the parental control technology has not been fully implemented in the current systems on the market.

Both newly introduced bills would take effect 120 days after being signed into law. Both of them were referred to committees upon introduction and have yet to be voted on.

Looks like Hillary is going to get her wish of massive restrictions on videogames within her state.

I can't say it surprises me that New York would be the first state to pull stuff like this as they tend to make rather... crazy decisions every so often. All I can say is, good luck to all of you in NY and hopefully you all can speak out about this to your representatives.

I tend to have a pretty conservative base so my feeling is that there should be as few regulations as possible on any sort of media. My feeling is that the ESRB rating system was a bad enough blow to the gaming industry, but this could very well kill it for NY entirely. I mean, come on, a "V-Chip" for consoles? How the hell are Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony going to develop the blocking system they are asking for in a mere 120 days, especially if it would require an update to the console before it could be sold. I also got a kick out of how handhelds and PCs are excluded as if the exact same games that appear on them are somehow different enough not to warrant the changes. Perhaps because for the PC it would border on illegal?

Source (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6171749.html?tag=latestnews;title;2)

Weeaboolits

May 31, 2007, 03:02 AM

Dumbass politicians. -_-+

Skuda

May 31, 2007, 04:00 AM

Politicians are retarded...

Even though this is happening in newyork, it will have just as big an impact up here in Canada. That's pretty stupid considering we wouldn't have any say in it what so ever.

KodiaX987

May 31, 2007, 06:51 AM

Not selling violent games to kids who aren't of age is nothing new, but I wonder just how one one state will push entire gaming corporations to stick parental control features in their games.

...oh wait, I already got that shit on my Wii!

ABDUR101

May 31, 2007, 10:25 AM

It all stems from parents with too much time on their hands, but not enough time to babysit their children. It's so much easier to have laws in place that fuck everybody, if it means covering someone's ass and having the ability to sue someone else for what you were unable to stop in your own home. "It wasn't my fault he was sold the game; even though I've prolly seen or heard him playing it for the past week in his bedroom...but as parents we have a busy life with work and trying to keep things together, we don't have time to watch what our kid does every second of every day."

Oh no, 15 year old Johnny is playing a game with those thunder-rods and boomsticks again, surely he's going to grow up beleiving he can shoot people and bang whores! What ever will we do? Our parenting and morals aren't ingrained into him and made him a mindless duplicate of ourselves yet!

Newsflash: For all of you new to the gaming scene and the laws which have been stacking up to help keep the 'violence' under control; it's only going to get stricter. There's always some nutjob out there who wants to wave a banner and create a devil for everyone to crusade against. Personally, I get all my "visual representation of a person or a portion of the human body which depicts nudity, sexual conduct, or sadomasochistic abuse" from the internet; for free. If I want to buy a game that depicts that, well it better be a damn good game; and I dunno about everyone else, but I don't go looking for a game that just lists that stupid shit in the parental advisory box. "Oh joy, my copy of Cheerleader Rape and Mutilation-fest X2 came in today! OH HAPPY DAY!!" I think anyone that games for the right reasons(fun-factor, relaxation, etc) doesn't care if the game was meant for minors; if the game is fun and attention grabbing enough, thats the point.

But then I'm 23, and I would'nt really give a shit if they made all gaming require that you be 18; so oh well! Not like kids aren't going to have someone older buy the damn games for them if they really want it anyway. I'm glad my parents never cared; they always knew I could distinguish fantasy from reality. Same with my nephews, they've been playing GTA on console for YEARS, and they're very caring and decent kids.

Oh well. America needs a mental flush; or we need to just start taking warning labels off everything and within afew years we should have our system properly cleaned. =]

Solstis

May 31, 2007, 10:38 AM

The only problem is, that some kids that are jerks become even bigger jerks when they play violent or misogynistic video games.

(Are there any misogynistic video games? Owait, the Guy Game, but that was stupid)

Still, stupid kids will be stupid, regardless of how they get their kicks.

And, Abdur, I don't think that it's a good idea to completely desensitize children in America to violence and all manners of depravity; look how cynical and narcissitic we turned out to be. We kinda suck.

I can only imagine what a bunch of jerks the next crop will be.

HUnewearl_Meira

May 31, 2007, 10:39 AM

I'm not sure that we've reacted properly to this. They're not really restricting the game industry, but they seem to be pretty much just creating laws to enforce what the industry is already doing.

As far as the ESRB having been a hit to the industry... I disagree with that, Blitz. It can be argued that the ESRB allows game makers added freedom, because they don't have to worry about holding back. If it's for adults, then it is clearly labeled as such, and if some grandmother buys it for her 10 year old, then it's her own damn fault. It's why our translations now tend to be better.

VanDarkmind

May 31, 2007, 11:10 AM

Well. Look at this report and afterwards at the German law concerning that topic. We have the strictest system for censoring Videogames in the World. There have been loads of Videogames, once containig rather violent stuff, cut down into a snotty, lame special german version! Not a singe drop of blood can be seen in most of the German Games that once have been containing souch. And STILL here are discussions about banning Computergames containing violence completely just because 2 persons gonde mad --- Because their social surroundings were bullshit. But hey! It's the videogames! never the parents that failed, never the teachers or/and his classmates who mobbed him. No! It's always the videogames. Mush.... There have been some games in the past that can be bought officially all over the world, but are banned in Germany. And thinking of being imprisoned in the future, just because of playing Counter Strike (Politician's favourite for their "crusades") just feels riddiculous!
You're right, every limitation concerning Videogames sucks, but just take a look at our stupid laws and thank whoever that you are more free about that over there.

It's not my fault, that freaks cannot handle their own feelings. And I suppose it's not your's as well...

[ This Message was edited by: VanDarkmind on 2007-05-31 09:19 ]

ABDUR101

May 31, 2007, 11:18 AM

We don't kinda suck, we do suck. But thats an unrelated issue I think. As for being cynical, so what? I'm not an all the time happy-go-cheery person; I like seeing the world the way I do; and I'm not always cynical; I just prepare myself for what backlashes can occur.

As for desensitizing children to violence. We have 24/7 news that tells of suicide bombings, of our war efforts to bring democracy to other nations(who often enough, don't even want it for the most part); of school shootings and of murderers, of rape victims; everything possible to be done to someone or something is on the news, and explained in as much morbid detail as they can.

The difference between that and a video game? Atleast the videogame is a fantasy; a kid of 'appropriate mental fortitude' can play GTA and realise that when they turn the game off, the game is OFF. That it's fun to speed down a suburban street in a stolen car in GTA, but in real life it's illegal and dangerous not just to yourself, but to others.

Thats really all it comes down to, whether someone can filter when the game stops and when reality starts. If kids are running around wanting to shoot people after playing a game like GTA, guess what, that kid is fundamentally fucked up; because if he did'nt get it from a videogame, he'd sure as hell have gotten it from a movie or TV.

I grew up watching gorey, raunchy horror movies, mobster movies, war movies, from every era. From a young age I've been a gamer, I've played just about every kind of game there is to be played; and I don't regret any of it because I know I'm a damn decent person with a good head on my shoulders; even if I don't feel the need to show it to everyone I come across.

However, when it comes to my nephews; I want them to be shown things; I want them to watch scarey movies and be afraid of the dark, I want them to play violent games and if they enjoy the game, fine; and through all of that I'll be there to tell them "ok, when the movies over, there's nothing to be afraid of, it's fake, it was computer generated/anamatronic." and "I'm glad you had fun running down people in GTA and setting off car bombs, but thats a game and when the game goes off, you're back to the real world" and then explain to them what happens to people who do those things, explain laws and other people's rights and that you can't go do things to other people just because you felt like it.

Desensitizing children in America to violence? The news does a good enough job of that; but it's all unabated and not for children's eyes; because they don't get an explanation other than "oh well they're bad people, they don't like us, etc". I'd rather my nephews learn early the significant difference between fantasy and reality, and with proper guidance from a parental figure and someone they look up to; than to not be allowed to play the stuff except when they go over to a friend's house and then they get a skewed view on how cool and awesome it is to do all these things, without the proper counter-balance and a reality check.

All I see with these laws being passed are someone's personal crusade to get their name in the spotlight and garner support for candidacy(and ignoring the bigger issue, which is people are stupid and once swayed in one direction, hard to stop the momentum). Hillary Clinton doesn't give a shit if her husband cheats on her(which he has all through their marriage), so why would she give a shit about some no-name kid in bumb-fuck America enjoying alittle bit of violence in a videogame?

Either way, thats my view on it; and thats how I handle it.

Weeaboolits

May 31, 2007, 11:26 AM

If the kid can't tell the difference between the game and real life, he'll likely have some problem whether they try to censor crap or not. :/

Also, why is it that they get so damn pissy about violent games? There's violent movies and books they could be harping about too, spread the love, doods. ;]

I think it's primely the fact that it's interactive, but the ESRB actually does MORE than the MPAA, yet they catch way more flack. :/

ShadowDragon28

May 31, 2007, 01:03 PM

*sigh* More a**hole politicians bringing MacCartyism(sp?) with ridiculous totalitarian-like Laws.
F*cktard politicians like MacCarthyists(sp) pulled this b*llshyte back during like the late 50's and the 60's with regards to Comic books being "too violent" or having "depraved sexual content" that was some how "corrupting America's youth."

I don't exacly see a large multitude of violent and depraved "Generation X" comic book geeks/fans going around doing violent acts or commited rape all the time.

And then the religious Fundi nutjobs ranted about how "Satanic" Dungeons & Dragons was in the late 70's. Yeah, I don't see or know of any "gen X",prior generation,or current generation ppl that play/played D&D or participate LARP players killing cats, dogs, etc as sacrifices to summon Beezelbub and I *know of* several players/former RP'ers. No one is packing pacts with "Satan" or doing graphically violent acts in the "Devil's name". It's so ignorant and moronic.

So, Here we go again.... It's sad when history repeats, and in the most stupid ways possible. (-_-)
Politicians should be more focused on far more important issues, like Education reform, eliminating political corruption, etc...

Weeaboolits

May 31, 2007, 01:17 PM

I remember that the pokemon games were once accused of being satanic, also kadabra in particular for having a star on his forehead. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Ronin_Cooper on 2007-05-31 11:18 ]

omegapirate2k

May 31, 2007, 01:24 PM

Indecent images would be any such visual representation "of a person or a portion of the human body which depicts nudity

OH SNAP

http://view.stern.de/pict/thumb/29500/510x510/thumb_32eac81e319023e7dc361387a2c2500f.jpg

SOMEBODY PUT AN ADULTS ONLY RATING ON THIS THREAD UNTIL I CAN COVER UP THAT NEKKID FACE.

Weeaboolits

May 31, 2007, 01:27 PM

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Mortal6.jpg

xeku

May 31, 2007, 01:58 PM

You know, it's nothing new really....
Heh, anybody recall the anti-heavy metal crap from the 80's, or when the AO rating was originally proposed? Go back a few decades earlier - look at the outcry good ol' Elvis stirred up!

Same old same old - just some politicians looking to score points with a certain portion of the American public....we are on the eve of the election year, after all.

Besides, it all really boils down to capitalism - Money talks....if demand for this product remains high, merchants will find loopholes, the consumer public will express their true feelings with cold hard cash, and the politicians will turn a blind eye and find new fish to fry.

Heck, it's the American way! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Just take a look at our nation's porn industry...tiny thing that it is.
Nah, Joe American, being the pillar of morality that he is, is not buying this stuff! No siree..just the odd, village pervert....lol.

We are a nation of hypocrites..

That said, I will certainly not be voting for Hillary...I don't expect this legislation to really amount to anything, but that does not mean I am willing to support it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Weeaboolits

May 31, 2007, 02:01 PM

I love how the politicians try to score points by making asses of themselves. ;]

Ketchup345

May 31, 2007, 02:10 PM

Since I don't know of any current game without an ESRB rating, it looks like this bill will only do 3 things:
1) Set up a NY state based group to review the ESRB ratings.
2) Enforce the ESRB ratings when a person wants to rent or buy a game.
3) Set up a group to find potentially dangerous kids (apparently not directly related to video games).

Will this affect any gamers over 18? It doesn't appear to.
Between 13 and 18? Slightly (M and those very few AO games; AO is probably the only rating that is hurt by the ESRB)
Under 13? Some stores already had a policy to stand by ESRB ratings (I noticed hearing about it a lot when talking about larger chains), so probably not by much.

ESRB ratings as of right now, are voluntary. The majority of games get an ESRB rating anyways.

Console parental controls? The PS2 had them of some type for DVDs (no idea about XBox, 360, or PS3 and if they expanded it to games).

Edit: Learn to count!

[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2007-05-31 12:24 ]

xeku

May 31, 2007, 02:19 PM

Yup Ketchup345..

It's a "whole lotta feel good about making a difference" kind of legislation...

Or in other words: "a whole lotta nothing but noise..but hey, it will help get me elected (or so I hope)."

Kind of like most gun control legistlation, if you ask me...

Solstis

May 31, 2007, 04:11 PM

I have a bone to pick with the news, too, but I forgot to mention that. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But, Abdur, you do have a point. Supervised video game playing is definitely better than leaving your kids to soak up hours of political rhetoric watching the news, while trying to pretend that it's educational.

Skuda

May 31, 2007, 05:01 PM

Any game that wants to get on the store shelves of Walmart needs an ESRB. And we all know how powerful Walmart is. A lot of other large store chains take this approach as well. No ESRB rating, no sale.

I think this could potentially hit the gaming industry in a bad way. If someone decides that the ESRB ratings aren't strict enough, they may start cracking down extra hard. Games that would normally have slid into E, being bumped up to T. That can massively cut sales, especially if the ESRB ratings are to be legally enforced in stored.

I noticed that on the back of Kingdom Hearts 2, which it said, "Mild Blood, Use of Alcohol, Violence." Looking at the actual game.. it doesn't really seem as bad. The only time blood and alcohol are used is in the Port Royal World, both on separate occasions.

Now what if the ESRB was told to crack down on these sort of things. KH2 could possibly be kicked into the Teen category. Square would be pissed, because that E rating is important for sales.

That's my two meseta, anyways.

[ This Message was edited by: Skuda on 2007-05-31 15:19 ]

Weeaboolits

May 31, 2007, 05:04 PM

KH: CoM got a language warning because Axel said "Hell", once, near the end of the game. ;]

DurakkenX

May 31, 2007, 05:35 PM

#1, the difference between games being attacked and 80s metal being attacked when it comes to defense of itself is a simple one. Anyone that would stand up for games that would rally people around them would prolly do more harm than good and really we don't have any "rebels" to do such for us anyways.

#2, ESRB was set up a long time ago to prevent game censorship. It is the most in depth rating system out there and is constantly evolving to include newer games. This new legislation is going in the face of PARENTS as parents are mainly the ones that decide the ESRB rating.

#3, I find it funny that california is more less becoming more forward thinking again and newyork and washington is trying to push us back to the 1800s. Americans are so set in their ways for the most part that most if they saw on the news that Bush had just declared himself emperor of america, a title that we may see in our life times given history and current events, they wouldn't say a thing about it. And the congress would be cheering and clapping. There are something like 250 countries in the world...in voting america has comes out as ranked 170 or so in the list of countries that votes. We are more a totalitarian government than most people think already and think about how many other places there are with government medical insurance..we're the only one that doesn't in the civilized world. We also have one of the worst education systems and are so backwards in thought....at least the few people that vote are...that we haven't made it possible for gays to marry, iinstead we are debating what marriage is v.v. Oh not to mention that our government refuses to sign the kyoto accord and we're the only energy sucking country that hasn't and we lead the world in energy sucking >.>

#4, For all of you that say "leave if you don't like it" I say go read the damn constitution. I like the United States of America just fine...I don't however like the Empire of America and the twisted crap that the US has turned into...

Sord

May 31, 2007, 07:27 PM

On 2007-05-31 15:35, DurakkenX wrote:
Americans are so set in their ways for the most part that most if they saw on the news that Bush had just declared himself emperor of america, a title that we may see in our life times given history and current events, they wouldn't say a thing about it. And the congress would be cheering and clapping.
I couldn't help but think of the point in the newer Star Wars movie where tbe Senate votes for Papitine to become emperor and Amadal says "So this is how democracy falls, with hands clapping." or something like that. Anyways, Star Wars flashbacks aside...

This is nothing new really, just the first time in awhile bills have gotten this far. I'l be 18 in July, so frankly I don't care to much about the restrictions if they do occur. Though I do strongly disagree with the idea games are corrupting kids.

All these people seem to think all these horrable desires stem from videogames. Last time I checked, most kids already know what it means to die and kill someone before they even play the videogame. The videogame itself didn't put the desire there, it just became an outlet for it. The only time that's dangerous is when the kid can't tell fantasy from reality, in which case the kidd was probably already screwed up in the first place.

Nor are videogames the only source of this kind of stuff. As Abdur pointed out, you can find all sorts of sick depraved stuff on the news. Moreover, you can continue to find this in movies. I remember when everyone was throwing a fit about Columbine and many were pointing fingers at videogames, then when the basement tapes were shown in court it became overwhelmingly evident they were more influenced by movies. Hell, they dressed like they were from the freaking Matrix.

Even if the laws do pass, there will always be an underground for the games. Hell, it might eveb push people to learn how to crack the hardware in the systems so you can burn games and play them. You could do this by saudering a chip out and a diffrent one back in the PS2, I know because my cousin-in-law actually did it and I tried it out. Worked like a charm. Sure, the systems may be advanced now, but with each generation exposed to more and more advanced technology and growing up with it, it's bound to be found out by some young hotshot or an old pro. If not hardware than software (hell, it's probably already been done) Then there will always be street vendors and "that one kid" in your class that has it and is selling it.

Nowadays if a teenager wants something, he can get it. Set up all the laws you want, people will always be de facto.

imfanboy

May 31, 2007, 11:42 PM

Reminds me of a funny story.

I was in line behind a kid and his aunt (or grandmother), and this kid was talking excitedly with his friend about the game the that his aunt was about to buy him. "Yeah, it's awesome! You can ride around on a bicycle, or a car, or just run around, and you build up your character by doing these things, and you can use almost anything as a weapon!"

Just as she gets to the counter and hands the game to the clerk, the kid says something stupid. "You can even pick up a DILDO and beat up people with it! Bam! Bam! Bam!" he said, making waving motions in the air as of hitting someone with a floppy 18-inch double-headed implement of sexual pleasure.

The game? Grand Theft Auto San Andreas.

Her action? She said, "No thank you," to the clerk, and hauled the protesting kid right out of the store.

I stepped up and bought the, oh, 4th copy of Xenogears I've owned over the years (lost so many) laughing with the store clerk about how dumb that kid was.

LAWS CANNOT REPLACE PARENTING. If she'd've BOTHERED to ask anyone whether or not this game was suitable for the kid, or even looked at the rating of the game, she would've known that the game probably wasn't appropriate for a 9-11 year old.

Skuda

May 31, 2007, 11:52 PM

That's precisely the problem. Children aren't being corrupted by games. It's the lack of good parenting that is screwing them up. If the goddamn parents would take responsibility for their actions, things like this may not have happened.

Violenve and death predates videogames by a long haul. Why doesn't the government try to do something about the actual issues, not scapegoat videogames for bad parenting.

Blitzkommando

Jun 1, 2007, 12:31 AM

On 2007-05-31 21:52, Skuda wrote:
That's precisely the problem. Children aren't being corrupted by games. It's the lack of good parenting that is screwing them up. If the goddamn parents would take responsibility for their actions, things like this may not have happened.

Violenve and death predates videogames by a long haul. Why doesn't the government try to do something about the actual issues, not scapegoat videogames for bad parenting.

But see, it's so much easier to have the government take care of everything that to actually work and take control of one's own life. People are becoming increasingly dependent on their governments (whether federal, state, or local) and giving up their rights and abilities to take care of themselves.

Even if these bills physically change nothing about games in New York they will cost money to fund which means even higher taxes for the taxpayers whether or not they get any benefit from the increased taxes.

The reason I say the ESRB is worth their weight in dog poo is that they are completely inconsistant in their ratings. Games with identical descriptors get completely different ratings which can confuse parents and guardians as to what extent that descriptor is used in a game. Personally I think the rating system should have descriptors as well as a nice scale of say 1 to 5 as for the severity of whatever it is. They should also do a better job at making the ratings in the first place.

I have right here a copy of Test Drive Unlimited for the PC. The box had two ratings on it when I purchased it. One is "Everyone 10+" and the other is "Teen". The descriptors changed between the ratings as well while the game content didn't. For the "Teen" rating it lists "Lyrics" and "Mild Language" while the "Everyone 10+" rating has "Language" and "Mild Lyrics" listed. Mind you the PC version is absolutely identical to the console versions yet is rated "Teen" while the console versions are "Everyone 10+". That's completely inconsistent and not to mention confusing. Hell, you can even play with users on the other systems from PC because the PC version is a freaking port of the Xbox 360 version.

Until the ESRB can get their right hand to figure out what their left hand is doing they really have no place rating games. This isn't the first time they've FUBAR'd their ratings and it won't be the last. People need to actually read about a game but having ratings on the box completely nullifies that action from most parents today. Of course, parents could also bother to simply read the back of the box but I don't see that happening either.

PS: ESRB change your damned site. That insanely bright yellow makes my eyes bleed it's so freaking bright. Check out the various sites on "Web safe colors" to find more acceptable shades of yellow so you don't blind the parents that actually do go to your site.

VanDarkmind

Jun 1, 2007, 06:42 AM