Class Race Combo Tierlist. [Archive]

Niloklives

Jun 4, 2007, 06:04 AM

I mean you could do a tier list for classes...that might be inetersting...then at that point one might be able to argue an overall tier list based on who dominates the class by class....but even then some of that is based on prefference and then you have to deal with cross over capability. for example: casts make the best fG. and they make pretty good GTs too...but while it might be fun to play a cast FT(I'm looking at you Deja =p) They're not going to outshine a Newman there by any stretch. While a Human who isn't nearly as good a fG(but still isn't bad), could arguably be a better GT because of stat bonuses and better resta, and is certainly a better FT than a cast...

x.X just too many factors to consider...

A2K

Jun 4, 2007, 07:37 AM

It's been done, and if I recall correctly it was a rather "heated" discussion. Tread with caution.

panzer_unit

Jun 4, 2007, 09:00 AM

Come on, a tier list is EASY. The only thing that matters to the sort of people interested in one is best-case DPS; so M Beast fF, then F Newm fT. Everything else is down in the disgusting stew of second-bests and could'a-beens.

ShinMaruku

Jun 4, 2007, 10:48 AM

I say for the drama I won't care of the heated retarded arguements becuase the cool collected arguements are the ones that I'll listen too.

Lonzell

Jun 4, 2007, 10:53 AM

Offline Mode Tornado Dance is broken.

Niloklives

Jun 4, 2007, 11:04 AM

>_> not talking about PAs, bud

Yoshiflash

Jun 4, 2007, 03:20 PM

An indisputable tier could be made for this game. I mean it is really a game of numbers. There would only be 2 sections. Solo and party. And possibly broken into 2 areas per section. One where costs matter and one where it doesnt.

For solo it would be 100% numbers. What race/class can do what stage the fastest. You could throw in a cost per stage if it is a tier based on making money.

For partied play you would need a support tier, and it would also have to be done on a stage by stage basis.

Over-all I think its pointless to create a tier because people are going to argue no matter how it is presented. And as far as party play it really doesnt matter enough to bother as 6 people can wreck any stage regardless.

Also no 1 person can make a tier for a game like this. That is unless they have somehow proven themselves to know the exact most efficient way to play every single stage with every single class/race combination.

This aint Street Fighter.

RedX

Jun 4, 2007, 03:25 PM

Classes/Races aren't broken, players are.

amtalx

Jun 4, 2007, 04:41 PM

Lvl 80 FOBeCastunteraseal-HUtranserwearl
Done.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 4, 2007, 06:50 PM

On 2007-06-04 13:20, Yoshiflash wrote:
An indisputable tier could be made for this game. I mean it is really a game of numbers. There would only be 2 sections. Solo and party. And possibly broken into 2 areas per section. One where costs matter and one where it doesnt.

For solo it would be 100% numbers. What race/class can do what stage the fastest. You could throw in a cost per stage if it is a tier based on making money.

For partied play you would need a support tier, and it would also have to be done on a stage by stage basis.

Over-all I think its pointless to create a tier because people are going to argue no matter how it is presented. And as far as party play it really doesnt matter enough to bother as 6 people can wreck any stage regardless.

Also no 1 person can make a tier for a game like this. That is unless they have somehow proven themselves to know the exact most efficient way to play every single stage with every single class/race combination.

This aint Street Fighter.

I have only seen 1 planet that cannot cleared quickly by a high level fT. Moatoob. And even it's only kog-nads who stand in their way. Get a 50% ageha-senba, and some jellen/rafoie21+ or maybe a virus bow...

Niloklives

Jun 5, 2007, 01:43 AM

see...right there. once the armor card is played things get all sorts of flipped around.

Garanz-Baranz

Jun 5, 2007, 08:36 AM

By way of dificulty-
1 being the easyest, 3 being the hardest.

Teir 1- Ranger, Fortegunner, Guntecher
Teir 2- Hunter, Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Wartecher
Teir 3- Force, Fortetecher, Protranser.

By way of brute power-
1 being the weakest, 3 being the strongest.

Teir 1- Ranger, below Lv5 Protranser, Guntecher
Teir 2- Hunter, Force, Fighgunner, Wartecher, Fortegunner, above Lv5 protranser.
Teir 3- Fortefighter and Fortetecher.

By way of soloability-
1 being worst, 3 being the best.

Teir 1- Hunter, Force, Fortefighter, protranser[mabye].
Teir 2- Ranger, Fighgunner, Fortegunner, Fortetecher.
Teir 3- Wartecher, Guntecher.

By way of popularity-
0 being worst, 3 being best

Teir 0- Hunter, Ranger, Force
Teir 1- Protranser, Wartecher.
Teir 2- Guntecher, Fortegunner, Fortefighter.
Teir 3- Fighgunner[bleh... IMO], Fortetecher.

This is from what I've observed.

panzer_unit

Jun 5, 2007, 09:38 AM

On 2007-06-04 23:43, NIloklives wrote:
see...right there. once the armor card is played things get all sorts of flipped around.

High percents are what's broken. Give that force some NPC shop armor and they're not gonna be so spectacular. I bet a fighter with 50% weapons for ice and earth / fire can plow through levels just as fast as a force with 50% armor.

VanHalen

Jun 5, 2007, 01:38 PM

On 2007-06-03 21:54, ShinMaruku wrote:
Who's broken?

Newman fortefighters are....I mean seriously have you seen my attack power? It needs to be fixed, and by fixed I mean increased http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

ShinMaruku

Jun 5, 2007, 01:51 PM

On 2007-06-05 11:38, VanHalen wrote:

On 2007-06-03 21:54, ShinMaruku wrote:
Who's broken?

Newman fortefighters are....I mean seriously have you seen my attack power? It needs to be fixed, and by fixed I mean increased http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Indeed.
So far I oinlky see one genral one.. Where the numbers freaks?

Yoshiflash

Jun 5, 2007, 04:49 PM

On 2007-06-05 11:51, ShinMaruku wrote:

On 2007-06-05 11:38, VanHalen wrote:

On 2007-06-03 21:54, ShinMaruku wrote:
Who's broken?

Newman fortefighters are....I mean seriously have you seen my attack power? It needs to be fixed, and by fixed I mean increased http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Indeed.
So far I oinlky see one genral one.. Where the numbers freaks?

most of the "numbers freaks" and/or people who have the experience to hazard posting a real tier list simply dont want to start a flame war.

I could give you an indisputable tier list, but I'm not going to as even saying I could would probably start an argument. Let alone actually doing it.

I just tell ya this because its pretty common knowledge.

Top tier for general over all play.

Cast/Beast Fortegunner>Human Fortegunner>Newman Fortegunner.

The game is simply unbalanced to ranged. More so at high levels. Add full array of traps. No need to make tiers. Fortegunner wins. Aside from that just have fun.

Another factor that would make a tier difficult for people to swallow is that generally a tier would represent each class/race being played at maximum efficiency. Or at least on a completely even playing field. Meaning 101 arguments consisting of "well not everyone is 80/10" or "not everyone has 50% weapons and armor".

[ This Message was edited by: Yoshiflash on 2007-06-05 15:00 ]

SolomonGrundy

Jun 5, 2007, 05:57 PM

On 2007-06-05 07:38, panzer_unit wrote:

High percents are what's broken. Give that force some NPC shop armor and they're not gonna be so spectacular. I bet a fighter with 50% weapons for ice and earth / fire can plow through levels just as fast as a force with 50% armor.

yup, but since there is no ATA for armor, and you need multiple weapons, in almost every element...as long as we are on the subject, techs don't rely on ATA, have the ability to hit multiple enemies at range (or close)....

did I mention that DFP does not work, but MST does? Imagine taking zero damage from S rank physical attacks as a fF. Nice idea. Doesn't hapen.

Shiro_Ryuu

Jun 5, 2007, 06:20 PM

I've said alot how Fortegunners should be nerfed. Maybe make it so that only PTs can use traps and decrease fG's ATP to at least less than Wartecher or Acrotecher or something. I mean, you're a Ranger, there should be more of a penalty for staying away from the action. Hunters are the ones who go up close and get hurt, so they should have their damage increased.

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 12:29 AM

the highest DPS weapons for fG require that you be at or near point blank due to limited range or minimizing spread when using against a single target which puts you into the fray. the further you get from the enemy, the lower your damage output gets. which is as it should be - so scaling down atp isn't really the issue. the issue is other mechanics of the game are poorly balanced. as grundy has repeatedly pointed out, DFP doesn't mean nearly as much as MST. this becomes far more apparent with higher attribute armor...but wit the way dfp works now, a cast FF with a crimson line and a newman FT with a yamata senba take almost the same physical damage. but the newman will be taking far less damage from techs than the cast.

I could keep going, but most of it's been covered in this thread already...so I won't rant on about it.

I WILL say I have never seen a mission cleared as fast as when 5 fGs and my wacky GT self run in and raid a place...seed awakened S was lit up that day.

Soukosa

Jun 6, 2007, 12:45 AM

No class is really easier to play than the others and vice versa. Everyone will find different classes to be easy to them.

As for what race/class combo would be more gimp than normal, beasts and casts playing a class that's heavily reliant on techs for damage would likely be the only thing. Being the slower attacking speed of techs makes having higher TP a necessary, much like with slower physical weapons. Seeing this, ST likely gave those two races special abilities and then various things like more stat bonuses to humans and newmans and the crea weapons to help balance things out. Every other combo shouldn't be an issue if played properly. What race you use with the class greatly impacts what you can do with them and thus what it takes to play it the most efficently.

Criss

Jun 6, 2007, 01:47 AM

All classes have their uses, and every race and combo can be good if used properly. You just need a player who knows what he's doing. Since PSU is a team-based game, I think that "tiers" should be based on who's most useful to the team. And when it comes to usefulness, it's all about the player's actions and priorities, not his chosen race/class. A Cast fT who buffs, debuffs and lands SE4s with his bow will be much better than the supposedly "superior" Newearl fT who just spams Dambarta around. IMO, tiers are irrelevant in an action-RPG game based on player skill and where stats don't mean everything. Keep tiers to fighting games, turn-based stat-oriented RPGs or click-to-target-and-spam-skills MMOs.

I'll give you tiers:
Tier one: Team-aware player that supports his team either with support techs, launching/knockbacking/stunlocking enemies, dealing SEs, etc.
Tier two: Player that focuses on enemies but helps team-members in need.
Tier three: Reckless player who just randomly spams techs or PAs, scatters and sends enemies flying in all direction and harm the rest of the team's efforts or strategy.

Shiro_Ryuu

Jun 6, 2007, 02:00 AM

I'll have to say that again, I hope/wish/think that Sounomi is right. Newmans don't seem to take as much a hit form ATP as CASTs and Beasts do from TP. I mean, Humans have much higher TP than beasts than they have higher ATP than Newmans, and Humans are equally good at all of the jobs, not the "other force race" as some people would like to consider them. I see it like this:
ATP: Beast >> CAST > Human > Newman
TP: Newman >>> Human >>>>>>>>> Beast > CAST

[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-06-06 00:01 ]

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 05:45 AM

x.X if you look at race profiles by sega, that's how it's set up...it's not how you see it, that's how it is...I mean if you really wanted to break it down like that there's nothing there we shouldn't already know.

the question isn't who has the highest atp or tp...the question is which race/class combo reigns supreme and the answer is based on too many factors to give a single answer.

On the other hand there are certain combinations which mathmatically do not make a lot of sense, but are just fun. to play. like a cast FT. it makes very little sense as their TP is SO low that competitively for damage they just can't offset the discrepancy with their other stats. A CAST FT is stuck playing the support type of role, which most cast FTs are quite happy with. But it means that they lack the same versatiity a newman has in that role, and they're not even defensively as powerful. a cast's lower MST results in a FT than has neither good physical defense of tech defense. makes it pretty hard to justify that combination, but people enjoy it.

Newman FFs are the same kind of story, thir only advantage in this class is their higher ATA. their other stats just won't add up to much...they'll have to wait a while to use A and S rank weapons. and then even then damage won't be nearly as high as that of say a beast...they'll have to wait much longer to equip higher lvl armor and they don't have the HP fo it to make much difference anyway.

now some may say that all comes secondary to play style and aptitude...and while you're right, a tier list assumes each possibility is being played to its fullest. meaning a beast FF in the same capable hands as the person who played the newman FF will outperform the newman. why? better atp, hp, defense by default plus race bonuses even to their lower ata...the beast is just better at that job. now don't get me wrong. play whatever you like...but a tier list in a game like this is based on numbers and additional abilities where applicable. The point is simply that no matter how good you are at the game, there may be a race/class combo that can do your job better. hell in this game even gender plays a role...so then you have to figure out the numbers there too...

Making a tier list might have to boil down to best race/gender for each class then weighing out each class. .good luck guys

panzer_unit

Jun 6, 2007, 08:50 AM

On 2007-06-05 15:57, SolomonGrundy wrote:
yup, but since there is no ATA for armor, and you need multiple weapons, in almost every element...as long as we are on the subject, techs don't rely on ATA, have the ability to hit multiple enemies at range (or close)....

did I mention that DFP does not work, but MST does? Imagine taking zero damage from S rank physical attacks as a fF. Nice idea. Doesn't hapen.

Oh wait, you mean the force is going to wear ONLY 4* ARMOR WITH 50% FIRE? Yeah, that's a totally realistic argument. What about go-varhas? What about Kamatoze charging all around, even ice techs are going to look ugly with a 50% boost to their damage.

Maybe you mean S-rank Linear Line or Hive? Dark armor won't negate barta or foie, and there aren't even any light attack techs.

BTW, with Me/Restore, I don't need to heal in Mad Creatures S as a Fortefighter except after dealing with those big Go-Varha fights with leaders and stuff... and I think that was before I got my lightning Crimsonline. I don't know how you're working it that you take serious damage in S rank missions.

You've got a point about dealing damage to multiple creatures at range, but how's a fortetecher supposed to avoid attacks when monsters want to run up and bite... with their awful ATA and Rising Strike capped at level 1, or the non-existant ability to cast techs on the run?

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 11:21 AM

MST still prtects against a tremendous amount of damage from techs even off element. so unless they get hit by foie while wearing ice armor, it's still not a big issue. also while their ata may not be great, they are the only class with access to lvl 21+ buffs which boost ATA enough that with a solid weapon they won't miss often enough to care.

FTs have way too much versatility for what they do. I only have 22% lightning armor - you can buy better from GRM...just not in A rank. Against lvl 105 go Vahras with deband 10 I take only about 100-130 damage. this is as a human GT. now factor in the slightly better deband that that 21+ gives plus jellen 21+ and that same armor I have. minimizing physical damage is not hard. now factor in that FTs also have access to lvl 30 bullets, and can use card, pistols and bows. A decent FT is equipped for quite a bit.

Furthermore there is no debuff for MST/TP so while having low defense can be offset with debuffs, low MST cannot. but HIGH MST can be increased even further - taking someone with 600 to 720 while the person with 200 just went to 240...defense in general just seems a bit silly. as it is right now, 300 (female cast figh gunner 80/10 with a crimson line equipped) dfp means I reduced damage by 60 points. having 220 (female newman FT 80/10 plus a yamata senba) means reducing damage by 44. 16 points difference in damage but casts are suppsed to be defense monsters while newmans are supposed to be frail. how is it that with armor you can buy everything for at the synth shop nearly equalizes damage taken? we look at these two cases once more. now i have no clear idea what a female newman's MST is at 80/10 as a FT...but a Human female FT 80/5 has about 350mst without armor. we factor in the armor and she's near 500 while the cast is stuck at 220. This time the numbers make a little more sense based on what we are meant to see from statistics. the female cast will quite clearly be taking significantly more damage there than the Human.

Grundy and I don't always agree, but on this point I feel i have to side with him. Fighgunners are second in defense only to FFs and at FF7 My caseals DFP isn't a lot better than as a FG our hitpoints make us more absorbant to damage, but FTs are never in combat. they have range and techs to make sure of that. even still 800 more hp sounds like a lot to some. but the only kind of damage that will kill a FT outright is just as much a threat to me...so I can take 1 or two more hits at 400? they're not taking any more damage than me. after you hit 1k hp the only way you're going to die is if you get surrounded or frozen or get unlucky on megid. DFP should make a clear difference in combat. the FT that takes 400 should be aking 400, but with similar armor in terms of element, as a hunter...shouldn't I be taking less damage? shouldn't I feel a little less threatened by 4 buffed go vahras than a force?

panzer_unit

Jun 6, 2007, 12:46 PM

On 2007-06-06 09:21, NIloklives wrote:
as a FG our hitpoints make us more absorbant to damage, but FTs are never in combat. they have range and techs to make sure of that. even still 800 more hp sounds like a lot to some. but the only kind of damage that will kill a FT outright is just as much a threat to me...so I can take 1 or two more hits at 400?

FT's are in combat lots, unless there are gunners drawing hate and/or fighters punching everything down with PA's. They're not mobile like gunners (unless they stop casting techniques) and don't have PA beatdown except for Dambarta spam - and skipping out on the chance to use a more effective form of attack, like with element bonuses or higher PP efficiency - to block a bum-rush. They're not helpless on the defensive, but they're for sure the most vulnerable of the classes out there.

You're really playing down the HP difference too. Having 1.5x or 2x the HP is exactly the same as taking 2/3 or 1/2 damage... from any source, this applies to techs too. I'm willing to bet a fT's MST doesn't cut damage from serious damage techs by half (Diga, Foie, Megid in S2 missions... I've seen and survived 1750 HP Megid hits) ... if a techer with all their MST can't even take more technique hits than a fighter with equal armor, how are you going to argue that they're equal or better off for physical damage?

If you're stuck soaking up more damage than you can take, well that's too bad. Anyone in the same position would get KO'ed. What I notice are the times when I get knocked to yellow health and walk away. That would have wiped out anyone else.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-06-06 10:48 ]

SolomonGrundy

Jun 6, 2007, 02:04 PM

panzer, you're wrong. very very very wrong.

50% dark armor (ageha senba is the easiest, but I know a FO with a Ga-Senba), 21+ retrier, and mega/rainbow, nullifies megids damage. Nullifies. Cherry has posted a video of him standing in a jarba's megids taking '0'

And in case you are not in the know, you can swtich armors on the fly pretty easily if the slots match. I see this done in Seed Awakened runs All The Time.

But forget about that, it's about the mass tech spammage areas. that hit a fT for 0 (or 10-20), but hit a similarly armored Fortefighter for 150 or more. I don't care if the fF has 2.5x the HP, he is taking 10x the damage. You do the math.

Also, distance is golden. Olgohmons don't persue, neither do vanda merha's. Even the sorcerers in hive get to a certain distance, then foie. they don't engage unless you engage them. So dodge the freaking foie. (an option you don't have as a fighting type, right?)

Now let's talk about worms: they hit you with jellen if you get taggged for a single point of damage. Oh wait, fT's don't care about ATP, so it's a non issue.
If only there was a way for a fF to wear high % fire armor, and take '0's but there isn't, unless you are slumming.

We can also talk about strateria, or grinning beta's (who give defense down, when you melee them), but I think you get the point..

Your character does not use mates when going through Mad Creatures S? Those enemies are level 50 (weak). I have a beast fortefighter, and I don't use any mates either. Even for the sworded ones (thank you, nanoblast). Try that Trick on Mad Beast S/S2, or Crimson Beasts S/S2. You get dead quick.

And while we are on the subject, take a look at the armor choices for forces compared to hunters. At 4* forces get a 3 slot armor, that combo's with a good weapon (and even without this weapon had DFP equal to a 5* GRM armor). Hunters get a 2 slot armor, giving up either the body slot (bye bye mega / rainbow), or giving up the extra slots (hp restore, or SUV).

hope this helps drive home the point =/

Jakosifer

Jun 6, 2007, 02:06 PM

It all comes down to the players, not the classes/races. IMO.

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 02:41 PM

isn't the defense on ageha senba like...80? that's a 4 star. crimson's a nine star and only grants bout 130. ageha is force armor, crimson is gunner/fighter armor and that's 5 stars difference for only 50 defense. 10 defense a star? techers have WAY more mobility than hunters. hunters can't move and attack either, but a techer also doesn't have exhadurated animations keeping them in one place as they attack. a techer slings diga and moves. they sling foie...and move...they do just about anything..then move. and if you think dam techs are an exception you're wrong. let go of the button and you can move again almost instantly. trust me, I play FO.

in regards to 1700 damage from megid. I have been a FT in MBS2 I've been tagged by megid from a buffed king jarba and with under 1k HP and wearing lightning armor, I lived. you can't compare casts nonexistant MST to human/newman FT MST...it's another world.

I mean cast FG seed awakened. gaozoran foie. I generallytake about 1k damage. FT I take 300-400 both wearing dark armor...

And I'm not even complaining about it from a "I die too much" stand point...because I don't die. I'm just looking at the scale and I'm saying if a FT takes even damage to scale from a tech..meaning they have half the HP but take half the damage...yes we can say that HP is a hug factor there and in the end we can call that fair. but when the ft is taking as much damage as me in melee combat when they should never be in a situation where they need to worry about melee combat...something is up. and again, they have dbuffs to hide behind. something very few classes have. It's just a terrible imbalance that many have adjusted to...doesn't make it right.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-06-06 12:48 ]

panzer_unit

Jun 6, 2007, 03:42 PM

On 2007-06-06 12:41, NIloklives wrote:
isn't the defense on ageha senba like...80? that's a 4 star. crimson's a nine star and only grants bout 130. ageha is force armor, crimson is gunner/fighter armor and that's 5 stars difference for only 50 defense. 10 defense a star? techers have WAY more mobility than hunters. hunters can't move and attack either, but a techer also doesn't have exhadurated animations keeping them in one place as they attack.

DFP is useless, I think you said that yourself. So who cares about Yohmei armor having lots of defense? I guess that's why it's the bottom of the barrel for equip requirements, the highest stat doesn't do anything. GRM has more EVP and MST and Tenora has super EVP... both of those do more, point-for-point.

I've got Ra, Gi, and Nos techs for my WT and they're all varying shades of slow, on par with doing various melee PA's. Even on a wand. I don't see any of them throwing monsters all over the place so I don't have to move. I don't see any of them letting me fly around like Anga Durega, Bogga Zubba, and Tornado Dance either. So: what are you talking about?

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 04:07 PM

you can't just stop mid animation as a fighter. if you're flying forward mid durega to chase after an enemy and 3 more enemies chase after you, you have to wait for that animation to finish while you get beat on. you're also in the fray durring that. Boggs zubba I sit and charge for a few seconds. while i do that its easy enough for me to get surrounded and once again wailed on. tornado dance isn't too bad, but isn't too hot for parties, since it scatters enemies everywhere making it harder to clear them out quickly.

meanwhile, RA and NOS techs can be used from a distance and inflict status ailments making it easy to get breathing room to cast again. this entire time you are removed form the battle UNLESS you're soloing where you are the one drawing rage no matter what. GI techs also do SE 3 meaning a high chance to inflict on smaller mobs with the exception of Gi Diga, which still staggers and has a wide AOE.

A point you're missing is unless soloing, if a FT is getting surrounded, it was because they felt like getting up close and personal. they have a world of ranged high powered attacks at their finger tips. fighters HAVE to get their hands dirty. you didn't HAVE to use gi techs..you wanted to use Gi techs. and you don't miss. if a fighter gets surrounded they have to make an openning and hope they don't miss while doing it.

And if you're agreeing that DFP is meaningless why are we even debating over this? My point was that the little meaning that DFP has is moot since forces have the same kind of access to it with lower base stats. also many fighters DO NOT WANT evp. the more they block the more their attacks get interrupted.

But if you want to talk EVP...which class has the highest EVP? the techers with the debuffs and the buffs and all that fun stuff. so even if they DO get surrounded they can once again make their high stats even more meaningful while on the off chance they do get hit are in no greater danger than a hunter.

But again the entire point of this was to show how little defense mattered and how a force's stats actually do something for them.

On a related note...TP vs ATP...look at those numbers and tell me where it makes sense.

panzer_unit

Jun 6, 2007, 06:04 PM

I think you missed my point that raw HP pretty much beats 'em all in terms of what you can get from a race or job choice, considering the really high damage numbers that come up in high level missions. Protransers get nothing except HP for defense stats and according to their weapon set, they're every bit as much a heavy melee fighter as a Forte. What else did Sonic Team give them axes for... Poltys?

So you're starting off by saying techers (and gunners to a lesser extent, they shoot on the move) only get to take advantage of their range _because_ fighters are up front trading hits... you're taking team dynamics totally for granted, and better yet you're using that as grounds to say that the guys who are keeping you from getting swarmed are crap, because they're getting swarmed.

If I did that it would look like this...

Essay: Why fighters are best and techers are a bunch of suckers
By: panzer_unit

Fighters are awesome because they can spam PA's for the highest per-character damage output in most circumstances, and never have to worry about HP in battle. Techers are crap because they have to spend so much of their time casting non-damage techs like resta and (de)buffs. Talk about a waste of time and PP!

Tsavo

Jun 6, 2007, 06:19 PM

Whoa.

Dude, you totally blew NIlok's post out of proportion. How he feels about FO's is irrelevent, it is a fact that they opperate mainly at range. Chill dude.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 6, 2007, 06:46 PM

We are all chill here, panzer included.

With regards to the discussion on DFP. I think the point of the post was that force armor, with it's increased DFP covers the gap between fT and Figunner.
Midiline has 85 DFP, Hoza-senba has 115 (a DFP difference).

As the discussion on HP as a viable defense, I think this is a poor argument. You will drink vast quantities of 'mates playing this game soloing. In a party, where a force can resta, HP is an ok defense against physical enemies. but imagine for a second, if resta only affected the caster. Are you still so confident in your HP as a defense?

MST however, works for Fortetechers - well, newman and female human fTs, anyway. the damage is calculated the same way for techs as it is for melee weapons. Now imagine a fortegfighter with 600 DFP. Now that's a tank.

Oh, and the question was asked about TP vs ATP, and I'm inclined to answer. Female Newman fTs have 1287 TP at 80/10, while fFs have only 887 ATP. A 9* rod has 622 TP, while a 9* spear has 676 ATP. A spear can hit multiple locations, multiple times, and can be more than 12% elemental. Offensively, fortefighters do alright. I'll tak a 30% caliburn over a RA tech any day.

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 06:46 PM

heh... Personally I enjoy playing all classes but WT. but what I'm saying is these comparisons need a control to maintain a level of perspective. if we're talking about soloing, that's a very different dynamic than when playing with a team. I love my figh just as much as I love my GT just as much as I love my FT. but as a FT and as GT in a team game I'm not in any danger. heck I melee go vahras for fun as a GT. but what I'm saying is while you're going on about how my figh has 25% more hp than my GT and 100& more than my FT, my GT and my FO are not getting hit. they just flat out aren't. you can say I'm taking advantage of my hunter team mates...but the truth is I don't have to worry even in parties made up of only ranger types or only force types.

forces and rangers have more mobility than hunters if for no other reason than they are not in the middle of the fight - which means they are less encumbered. if a hunter type takes as much physical damage as a force or ranger type, the imbalance comes from the hunter getting hit 5-10 times for every 1 time a force or ranger is getting hit. does it mean the class sucks? no. does it mean that defense should mean more than what armor you can equip? I think so.

You really are taking this way out of context. I'm simply saying the same thing grundy is saying. and that is the defense stat is relatively meaningless. now you can agree or disagree, but my comparisons were not to say a single class was better than another. simply that there is a stat that does not work.

Tsavo

Jun 6, 2007, 06:55 PM

Maybe I read too much into it then. If so, my bad.

As far as the tiers go my simple opinion would be fT and then everything else. Which annoys me since I don't tech much. The only people who would really use tiers though are those who take this game too seriously for me and as such these would be people I'd probabaly never play with. Its PSU, have fun.

Niloklives

Jun 6, 2007, 07:06 PM

one thing you're forgetting grundy is attack modifiers on some of these techs. foie at 30 has what - 280%? while daggas if memory serves caps at about 150...160? and again...there's range to consider as well as the tech's natural element modifier as well as the fact that there are fewer tech resistant enemies than there are melee resistant.

EDIT: AND techs have SEs.

just another slight scaling issue I have that I probably wouldn't even care about if the dfp issue was resolved.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-06-06 17:07 ]

SolomonGrundy

Jun 6, 2007, 08:18 PM

On 2007-06-06 17:06, NIloklives wrote:
one thing you're forgetting grundy is attack modifiers on some of these techs. foie at 30 has what - 280%? while daggas if memory serves caps at about 150...160? and again...there's range to consider as well as the tech's natural element modifier as well as the fact that there are fewer tech resistant enemies than there are melee resistant.

EDIT: AND techs have SEs.

just another slight scaling issue I have that I probably wouldn't even care about if the dfp issue was resolved.

on 2007-06-06 17:07 ]

diga hits a single target, once, and is not the fastest tech in the universe. SEs are useful, no doubt, but when you are talking pure damage, it's hard to argue that a set of moderately elemental fists, twin claws, etc (30% ish), can't dish out some rather extreme damage. I don't have a problem with Skill damage vs tech damage at all, if they fixed the defense thing. I'm not sure what a techs natural element modifier is http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif I know diga does more to polhavara than it does to a strateria, but I'm not sure how elemental a spell is). Do you know?

Niloklives

Jun 7, 2007, 05:44 AM

off hand, no. I haven't been able to sit down and test anything as of yet with techs since my levels are all completely out of balance.

But what I was saying it that kind of power that kind of damage...even with things like the dam techs...it's the ammount of PP expended for the level of damage done while being completely out of harm's way... I mean what got me was when I saw a FT doing about 2k damage with foie to a kamatose while completely safe. meanwhile the first attack of dus daggas puts me at point blank with him and deals about 2400. but I also have to move around and avoid getting stuck in he damdarta attack while the force can just sit back and shoot.

in a situation like that, potential DPS doesn't win out.

panzer_unit

Jun 7, 2007, 10:15 AM

My 2100+ HP Cast uses trimate for main healing. It's cheaper per HP and lasts longer if I take hits until I'm at yellow and then pop a trimate... I'd love to have even more HP, it would reduce how often I need to heal and how much it costs per point. That excludes how I'm gobbling up all the mates I get from drops along the way like some kind of pacman too. I buy Dimate only for boss fights where I need to keep my HP level close to full to avoid one-shot kills... in those cases they make a huge difference to how long I can hang in there.

Techniques are supposed to be 30% elemental BTW. I checked my Ra- damages and it seems about right. Using a proper element does about twice the damage as the wrong one.

For Kamatoze, try using PA's that will keep the thing knocked over. Anga Durega is custom made for it (perfectly timed to start and end with knockdowns) but a good pattern with Rising Strike even will let you just chase the thing around from knockdown to knockdown with no fear of getting hit by anything at all. The tougher monsters as a Fighter are the ones that will only flinch no matter how hard you hit 'em... then you need to get witty with the hit and run, or work out some arrangement for stagger-locking the thing if you're in a team. On the other hand, those monsters are pretty infrequent, like a beast should be able to deal with MOST of those encounters with nanoblast, Casts should be able to put a dent in 'em with an SUV etc.

Niloklives

Jun 7, 2007, 10:47 AM

I used dus daggas as an example since it's a known overpowered skill. as as a figh, i don't have access to axes, nor do I want one. realistcally I use tornado dance...but the damage output isn't nearly as good as dus daggas. sure it decks him, but then in that same amount of time foie was cast about twice once again for 2k a pop at great distance. heh you guys can dispute it all you want. I'm just saying I feel like forces getting range and power at the cost of DPS isn't so bad when the ratio of damge to pp spent for a single effort is so skewed..just me feeling that forces are just a bit too good as things are right now.

No big deal.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 7, 2007, 12:44 PM

On 2007-06-07 08:15, panzer_unit wrote:

For Kamatoze, try using PA's that will keep the thing knocked over. Anga Durega is custom made for it (perfectly timed to start and end with knockdowns) but a good pattern with Rising Strike even will let you just chase the thing around from knockdown to knockdown with no fear of getting hit by anything at all. The tougher monsters as a Fighter are the ones that will only flinch no matter how hard you hit 'em... then you need to get witty with the hit and run, or work out some arrangement for stagger-locking the thing if you're in a team. On the other hand, those monsters are pretty infrequent, like a beast should be able to deal with MOST of those encounters with nanoblast, Casts should be able to put a dent in 'em with an SUV etc.

Kamatoze is a perfect example of what's wrong with the DFP system. A 28% ice Gi-senba (NPC flavor) will allow a force to sit there and foie him to death. A similar 28% midiline and you still get whacked PLENY hard by his attacks, AND you have the risk of dumb-barta.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Spells are 30% elemental. Wonderful.

Niloklives

Jun 7, 2007, 01:10 PM

so on a rod with a 12% bonus on it, a tech gets a total of a 45% elemental boost. so it translates to the same as a 44% melee weapon all said and done. >_> yeah...woot...

panzer_unit

Jun 7, 2007, 02:32 PM

On 2007-06-07 10:44, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Kamatoze is a perfect example of what's wrong with the DFP system. A 28% ice Gi-senba (NPC flavor) will allow a force to sit there and foie him to death. A similar 28% midiline and you still get whacked PLENY hard by his attacks, AND you have the risk of dumb-barta.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Supposing the kamatoze doesn't spend the whole fight on its side. Like they usually do.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-06-07 12:33 ]

Niloklives

Jun 7, 2007, 02:46 PM

I see them standup and dambarta immeidately quite a bit. once they start that animation there's really no stopping them. but still...its the fact that force can do that kind of damage, inflict burn 4 and keep up the assault without having to get anywhere near it.

panzer_unit

Jun 7, 2007, 02:53 PM

Kamatozes have one of the more painful charge attacks around, I've seen people die to it on occasion... what exactly does foie do that stops it?

SolomonGrundy

Jun 7, 2007, 03:20 PM

On 2007-06-07 12:53, panzer_unit wrote:
Kamatozes have one of the more painful charge attacks around, I've seen people die to it on occasion... what exactly does foie do that stops it?

gives you more time to dodge?
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Niloklives

Jun 7, 2007, 04:25 PM

lets you fire on him from a safe spot?

pso123hrf

Jun 9, 2007, 10:28 PM

In before this gets locked

I can sum this up in 5 words (along with an abbreviated one)

It's just a game

Niloklives

Jun 9, 2007, 11:14 PM

o.O we're discussing, try reading rather than just posting for the heck of it. not only that but was this even on page 1?

and there were no abbriviations in that sentence, "it's" is conjugated.

anyway no one here is fighting, so next time you post try to offer some insight.

Sexy_Raine

Jun 12, 2007, 12:50 PM

I won't say much but, this current version of PSU has crappy balance. It really does.

A fortegunner can kill most missions alone, with very little risk involved. Most Lv100+ enemies difficuty goes down the drain when you kill them with a Falgohoh with Burn4 or Infection4 or with Traps. Hell, you can kill lv100+ enemies with a 1 star rifle, real balanced right?

As far as races go for Forteguuner, there's so much stuff you get to cheat the system that is doesn't really matter. My Nova is overpowered!

Fortetechers are not overpowered, I don't know why everyone is putting them top-tier. You hunters doing your stupid bashing on them can go suck it. They have their flaws such as low HP. But they are strong though.

[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-06-12 10:55 ]

panzer_unit

Jun 12, 2007, 02:46 PM

On 2007-06-12 10:50, Sexy_Raine wrote:
I won't say much but, this current version of PSU has crappy balance. It really does.

Yeah, Protranser for the win. What genius thought to put ALL the best fighter and gunner stuff on one class? Some wacky dude at Sonic Team.

I started leveling other jobs when I realized that I wasn't even using half of my PT abilities on most teams... which is pretty much the job description of a fortefighter or fortegunner. "Here, you're this half of Protranser with like 200 more ATP"

SolomonGrundy

Jun 12, 2007, 03:26 PM

On 2007-06-12 12:46, panzer_unit wrote:

I started leveling other jobs when I realized that I wasn't even using half of my PT abilities on most teams... which is pretty much the job description of a fortefighter or fortegunner. "Here, you're this half of Protranser with like 200 more ATP"

yeah. more like 300-350 ATP, but who's counting? When a male human PT has less ATP than a newman female WT, there's a problem.

panzer_unit

Jun 12, 2007, 03:46 PM

The ATP difference with Fortefighter is 210 for my Cast... 496 vs 706 or something like that. PT10 vs fF5 I'll admit, but I'm not getting 20~30 ATP per rank of Fortefighter.

EDIT: the stat difference you'd expect from Fortes probably assumes some S-rank weaponry. We'll get those real soon, right?

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-06-12 13:54 ]

Niloklives

Jun 12, 2007, 07:02 PM

Raine...I have played every class and maxed all of them to 10 on a lvl 80 human. I'm not just running my mouth here. but I never compared a FT directly with a fG. this is because I was expressing two different issues, and was not trying to say that FTs were the most powerful. but was saying how unimportant DFP is - that is to say the stat does not work. I used a female newman FT as the subject because that would arguably be the most frail character in the game. when comparing it to a cast female FG which should be one of the least frail in the game since female casts have the highest DFP and fighs hav ethe second highest DFP. the argument there being that a FT is not in situations for them to have to worry about taking physical damage unless soloing and yet they take as much damage as a fighter, but they take far less damage from techs. this was me speaking to one of the many balancing issues.

my OTHER argument was that as a techer, who can stand back like a ranger can, has techs that out damage fortefighters on a hit for hit basis at little cost to PP and again out of harms way. this was not in any way my way of showing that FTs were the best class, but how bad the hunter classes got boned in this game.

and yeah as much as people try to get down on PTs, those guys have insane versatility and a really fun weapon selection. PTs are great....so much so that I stopped haveing my human double as one and am making a seperate character to go PT so I can focus on it rather than having only a few workable PAs for that class.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 13, 2007, 07:08 PM

On 2007-06-12 13:46, panzer_unit wrote:
The ATP difference with Fortefighter is 210 for my Cast... 496 vs 706 or something like that. PT10 vs fF5 I'll admit, but I'm not getting 20~30 ATP per rank of Fortefighter.

EDIT: the stat difference you'd expect from Fortes probably assumes some S-rank weaponry. We'll get those real soon, right?

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-06-12 13:54 ]

(Worst case)
M Beast PT 80/10, ATP: 538
M Beast fF 80/10, ATP: 887
net: -349

M Cast PT 80/10, ATP: 498
M Cast fF 80/10, ATP: 797
net: -299

(Best Case)
M Human PT 80/10, ATP: 472
M Human fF 80/10, ATP: 733
net: -261

for Reference: F Newman WT 80/10, ATP: 502

Tra

Jun 13, 2007, 08:27 PM

Regarding the "techniques have 30% elemental", no they don't. They scale each and every level. I'll have a guide all about it later tonight.

and hey, if you wanna see how powerful a fortecher is...

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G74YFDj_auk

part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0eLd0SHG-s

part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6SwmerOfg

fT main-tank ftw =)

Niloklives

Jun 13, 2007, 09:14 PM

right but at lvl 30 what are the modifiers?

...and I swear people are ignoring half of what;s being said

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-06-13 19:18 ]

Tra

Jun 13, 2007, 09:15 PM

40%

Niloklives

Jun 13, 2007, 10:49 PM

>_> better still....

Niered

Jun 14, 2007, 01:11 AM

Having this arguement is akin to asking 6 year olds what there favorite color is. The fact it hasnt degraded itself as much as I would have expected it to by now is somewhat reassuring though.

Realistically, a tier list is only useful in fighting games. Since PSU is not a fighting game, I fail to see why it would need it. I get along just fine as an unorthodox race/class combo, and I dont see how me being lower on a list that is constituted mainly of theory, disputable conjecture, and unlikely scenarios, will help me enjoy this game any more.

Arika

Jun 14, 2007, 01:23 AM

On 2007-06-13 18:27, Tra wrote:
Regarding the "techniques have 30% elemental", no they don't. They scale each and every level. I'll have a guide all about it later tonight.

and hey, if you wanna see how powerful a fortecher is...

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G74YFDj_auk

part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0eLd0SHG-s

part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6SwmerOfg

fT main-tank ftw =)

oh hey!, at first I though this is old thread lol
finally you back! CG~ http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

btw, isn't that vid was made for the purpose to show the yak zagenga ? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Arika on 2007-06-13 23:29 ]

Akaimizu

Jun 14, 2007, 08:40 AM

On 2007-06-13 23:11, Niered wrote:
Realistically, a tier list is only useful in fighting games. Since PSU is not a fighting game, I fail to see why it would need it. I get along just fine as an unorthodox race/class combo, and I dont see how me being lower on a list that is constituted mainly of theory, disputable conjecture, and unlikely scenarios, will help me enjoy this game any more.

Don't I wish the majority of FFXI gamers saw it this way. I'd probably still be playing it without such necessity to play specific classes if I ever expected to get a party and advance anytime soon.