Double Sabers

[Kimil]

I've beentrying Figunner lately, since I've been liking Wartecher less and less ( I like using Fortecher better for a supportive role... wartecher is only useful while in small groups, and before I lost my liscense I was always in 4-6 person groups )

I went Figunner solely for the daggers, single saber and guns. But I've been eyeing the double saber...

Is it worth getting into? and is so, what PAs should I be using?

Currently the PA I use that the Double Saber PAs can fall into are as follows:

Single/Double enemy Damage:
Anga Redda, Yoyos, Moubu, Renkai, Buten, Gravity Strike, Falcon Punch

Is the first Double saber PA better than these?

Radius Attacks:
Renkai, Rubedo

Is Gravity Dance better than these?

Boss Killer:
Yoyo, Dus Daggas

Is Tornado Dance better than these?

Or, Am i good wit my Daggers and Spear?

[Syl]

If you want to make most of AoE, definately get that double saber AoE PA. It's pretty good for the amount of hits and targets it can hit.

(lol from your weapon selections, you keep looking and sounding more like an acro class http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

[Kimil]

Haha, I would go Acrofighter, but... No Twin Daggers T_T But Acrotecher has em for when I want to do the support thing http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-06-12 22:53 ]</font>

[Midicronica]

Spiral Dance (First Dbl Saber PA) is a very good PA, but it has a little too much knock back for it's own good, IMO. You will almost never connect the 3rd part to the enemy you started the combo with because you've knocked him back.

Gravity Dance is a very good AoE skill and one of my personal favorites. Unlike Renkai and Dus Robado it doesn't have any knock back at the last combo. I'd recommend it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Tornado Dance...works wonders on large monsters and if used correctly on small monsters... It can be pretty effective. I like using that one guys method (can't remember his name) Freeze G Trap, then Tornado Dance.

[Kimil]

I think you are Talking about Einhart http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif ( Icespike )

Hmm... So if I tried out the wep ( Which I may not ), the only PA I'd get would be the AoE Attack... Wouldn' replace Renkai though, maybe Rubedo?

[Korokodo13]

I just switched to fighgunner aswell and people arent to bright at pricing stuff cuz i found 2 ice double sabers 14% and 20% for 100K for both, and then I found an ice bone dance 12% for 60k.... also I would reccomend Spiral dance just because everyone over uses the others and it looks really cool, and for me it got to lvl 19 in about 4 hours

[Garanz-Baranz]

The weapon itself is, in my opinion, based on observations, very weak.

the Double Saber barely beats Twin Saber ATP, verses the S grade ones, but it's combos may hit more times, but instead of the 4 hits on the normal Combo, you get only 2 hits at max on the PA's.

I've used both non-ult PA's to Lv11+, their power was increased, minimally.

The double Saber is best used on largr slower targets.

The Fighgunners ATP is lower or barely greater then a Fortegunners ATP[i can't recall the %'s] and is really not too suitable for a very-close range weapon, without the Defence of a Fortefighter.

I say that the Double Saber would be better on a Fortefighter, because they have the defence to use the dang thing...

[ashley50]

IMO...just get Spiral Dance and Gravity dance.

Tornado dance isn't great at all...

[gambit04]

They all have their uses try to party with some FighGunners and see where they use the PAs.

You really need to get your own opionion on these TD is good if you like to solo.

Sprial, and Gravity have their uses too...

Also I think there was a topic about this not too long ago(maybe it was said in a FighGunner topic) maybe you could find it and see what some people had to say then.

[Freshellent]

On 2007-06-12 22:48, Kimil wrote:
Single/Double enemy Damage:
Anga Redda, Yoyos, Moubu, Renkai, Buten, Gravity Strike, Falcon Punch


Doubles against Single enemies? Unless you have a wall nearby don't bother (hallways too) Try Spiral and Tornado,but honestly Spiral has a great juggle if there is a wall nearby. Is it better? No,but if you really wanted to use it,you could. The last hit(s) of Spiral does excellent damage.


On 2007-06-12 22:48, Kimil wrote:
Is the first Double saber PA better than these?

Radius Attacks:
Renkai, Rubedo

Gravity Dance is decent,paired great with traps and good for your average mob. Although if you really think of it,Spear art2 is better,it just doesn't have the same appearance as Gravity. I'm not a fan of Renkai,it looks odd to me,but it's fast and has good recovery if I recall.


On 2007-06-12 22:48, Kimil wrote:
Is Gravity Dance better than these?

Boss Killer:
Yoyo, Dus Daggas


I've never gotten Yoyo to 21 so I wouldn't know,but Yoyo after that first hit has HORRIBLE recovery. Do you mean Spiral dance btw? I think in terms of damage I'll pick a Spear over Doubles. Daggas is a great art. Better than Spiral in terms of raw damage,but you can juggle with Spiral,helpful for keeping the heat off you. Again,the wall/knockback issue here.

On 2007-06-12 22:48, Kimil wrote:
Is Tornado Dance better than these?


In terms of Damage? TD has okay/good damage. It needs a large target for it to really matter. (With multiple hit boxes)


On 2007-06-12 22:48, Kimil wrote:
Or, Am i good wit my Daggers and Spear?



Personally I'll pick Twin Sabers over Daggers. While daggers offer a decent amount of PA's and the like,it just seems to me I find more use with Twin Sabers. Spears are a must for damage. Doubles simply won't do it.

I hope this helps.

[ashley50]

I guess Ein's the Expert on the FighGunner class =p

[Sekani]

The first day I got Gravity Dance to 11 was the last day I ever used Renkai or Robado.

[Dragwind]

I would highly recommend Gravity Dance as an AoE pa. It's the only dblsaber pa I got and found useful.

[Eleina]

Spiral dance is powerful and if used correctly is highly effective
Gravity dance is good but i would say dus robado is better
Tornado dance is a great crowd control pa useful for protecting your fT http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[February]

Yeah, same here. Gravity dance does its job very well. I love using it on large groups of smaller monsters. The double saber has become my favorite weapon (Was twin daggers) because of their range and speed.

[Arieta]

Don't forget that Double Sabers in their Normal combo hits 4 targets. So even if they have lower ATP then twin sabers, you're going to be hitting up to 4 targets at once if you have that many around. Sometimes you can do more damage just swinging it then using a PA because of that.

[Niloklives]

4 targets is with a crea doubles. that's it.

anyway. einheart and I have very different takes on being a fighgunner, and without disparaging him, I've got a lot of info for you.

first off spiral dance:
this is my bread and butter with my DS. I don't use my ds for regular combos, as it is far to slow and has very little stun. instead I just use the PA. spiral dance is an extremely cost effective PA, costing 45pp compared to most other PAs 54-66. also while the visible modifiers and atp on it aren't breath taking, the damage is medium to heavy depending on the extension, there are no light hits with this move, and it hits a lot. the other major advantage of this move is that every hit is extremely safe. the first part causes wipe out, the second cause knock back nd the third causes knock back. against smaller mobs which I rarely use this on, you can use just the opener to wipe out your enemies then if you wanted to, regular combo them while on the ground. but what really makes this move shine is when you use it on (most) big enemies. jarbas, grinnas, svaltus', bil de vears, and dilzanean all hate this move. it's easy to maneuver to stay behind them and stun lock them while doing amazing damage. this is devistating to the ones with multiple sections. and because every hit is wipe out or knockback, you have no need to fear a reprisal. better still because the PA is so cheap, you're more free to spam it. I've run crimson S2 alone using this move and a 22% ice nightwalker. it allowed me to stunlock jarbas while at the same time keeping buffed go vahras off of me thanks to the continuous knock back. it's also a very useful PA against enemies that remain stationaty once knocked down(goshin/bul buna, sledanians(sp)). the wipeout knocks them down and leaves them wide open for the rest of the combo. it's also pretty devistating against gol dola and kagajibari, but they recover from being staggered much faster than other big enemies, so you'll have to be careful. I swear by this skill as a fighgunner.


Advanced use of spiral dance: Spiral dance is one of the easiest moves to finesse in this game. this means I have incredible control over where it's going or what it's at any given time. I can use it in a rotating sweep to wipe out 6 enemies instead of 2 or 3, then on the follow up turn 180 dagrees and kick two them away to keep away and surprises from behind. THEN turn around again and finish the combo hitting 3 enemies with the full on final attack. using a similar mathod, on can actually stunlock multiple large enemies at once. it's a bit dangerous, but once you're confident in your ability, you party will thank you for making it so easy to take out a group of jarbas. but then again, if you're not confident, or the enemies are too widely dispersed, find another method of attack.

Gravity Dance:
As a figh i felt obligated to keep this move and get it to 30, but I rarely use it. the first two attacks offer only light stun, leaving you open and there's a long pause between each attack making it a bad choice when surrounded which one would think is when you want to use this PA. renkai is faster and does the same kind of damage, plus twin daggers have better regen and the cost is the same. the only thing worth noting about gravity dance is that where other similar skills would cause knock back at the end, gravity dance causes pop up. aside from that, renkai and dus robado do better damage and are safer moves. stick with one of those.


I'll follow this up by saying gravity dance is really just eye candy. and I'm not trying to offend anyone who uses it, but it is over used and inappropriately relied upon. most everyone I see use gravity dance seems to like to see the numbers pop up on the screen, but are unaware of how prone they are to counter attacks even after they get killed mid combo time and time again. on S2, enemies literally walk through this move so unless you have someone there keeping the enemies busy or flooring them for you, this PA will rarely even get to the last part of the combo, which isn't even on par with spiral dance. where gravity will hit 3 enemies one time at the end for 900 damage each, spiral will hit those same 3 enemies 3 times for 600 each hit. totaling 1800 damage per target as opposed to 900 (twice as much for less PP consumed to boot).

Tornado dance:
I loved this move in extra mode. sadly, it's not quite the same kind of beast in network mode. this move causes knockback on every hit. not too useful on small enemies because it tends to only hit 4-6 times total(max of 4 on a single target and 2 targets total for a potential 8 hits, tops), scatters enemies everywhere and costs way too much for the kind of damage it does in those situations. instead I use this PA for large enemies that can be knocked over by knock back and have multiple parts,(kamatose, dur gora, kogg nad) when used right these enemies never get a chance to fully stand up and the damage is good eenough to justify the high PP cost. there are no extentions with this move, it just gets better modifiers and increased costs (ala bogga zubba, but more expensive still). I suggest this skill for those monsters and them alone. it's a figh's best method of attack against them.

this is all coming from an 80/10 figh with way too much time on their hands and a very low death rate. I never have to buy scapes and clear rooms very quickly. I say this because there are some who will say that my playstyle isn't too safe, but then again, I'm not the one who runs up and tries to gravity dance jarbas from the front.

hope all that made sense. have fun

[Dre_o]

I'm gonna make this real short.

Double Saber since the day I could use them. Why? Almost 180 degrees of death.

Strongest weapon out there? No. Most versatile? Meh, perhaps.

I back up my Double Sabers type weapons with Twin Sabers. If there's one monster or one damage point on that monster, I switch to the Twin Sabers. Thus, Double Saber is my primary weapon, but I have a wider variety of Twin Saber elements.

[Korokodo13]

On the FB missions I use gravity dance on large crowds of small mobs and I use spiral on the bigger enemies such as tengohs or palohavras (sp?)

[Reginaldo]

I feel like I'm the only person who has no trouble with the knockback on spiral dance. As previously posted just turn yourself for the "kick" part in the second part of the pa, then turn back for the last part.

I do about 1k with the final part of Gravity Dance times two or three enemies which is fine and dandy I guess, but the last part of spiral allows me to do about 500-800 damage times three hits to three mobs. On top of that any mobs that are near me are getting knocked down or away since this awesome pa does some kind of knockback effect with nearly every hit.

Spiral Dance by far outdamages Gravity Dance. If you still don't get why then learn to stop mashing buttons and take control of what you are doing.

[KamiSori]

Gravity Dance is an excellent AoE attack and i think it far exceeds Renkai (weak and no range) and Robado (strong but too slow).

Spiral Dance IMO is not that great, it basically does the same thing as Buten Shurenzen but with less Acc and harder to control. its not necessarily bad but i would rather use my trusty dagger.

Tornado Dance. well im not to familiar with this one. mine is only at level 8 but i can tell you i absolutely LOVE torpedo-ing myself right into Gol Dova's ugly mug. it tears him up good. however i dont think it works that great on De Ragan.

[Niloklives]

gravity is pointless. the damage output is average and the cost is too high for the effect. put that on top of the fact that the weapon it's on is just not good for comboing with and you get a worthless PA. at least renkai is fast and gets in enough hits to make up for he lower damage. the range isn't great, but gravity's is just as worthless wince the staggering is just about nonexistant. S2 enemies walk right through both. but renkai is much more spammable.

Spiral is very different from buten and if you think they're the same you cleary haven't used spiral enough. that PA is a damage monster and the simple fact that it knocks things over or away on every hit makes it better than buten especially against big enemies. if you can't control spiral dance, you need more practice. I'm sorry, but the only moves easier to control than spiral are anything that starts with rising. Spiral is easy to use, fast and has excellent damage. My post before may be long, but it's worth reading and I suggest you do it.

[Hrith]

I laugh everytime someone compares Renkai Buyou-zan to Gravity Dance.
Gravity Dance has over twice the range of Renkai Buyou-zan.


I have had all three double sabers at Lv30 for a while, and well...

-Spiral Dance: haven't found a use for it. The knockdown on the first part of the combo is really nice, but it's supposed to be a damage PA, and it's a lot weaker than Assault Crush, Dus Daggas or Hishou Jinren-zan. It's also very hard to get all hits to connect on regular monsters, and on big monsters, Tornado Dance is much better, so Spiral Dance is a rather useless PA.

-Gravity Dance: quite an awesome PA, there, amazing range and 360 degree radius, good damage at the end, and the lack of knockback is actually a very good thing because you use AoE PAs on small monsters, and you do not want to send them flying; most of the time, people do not use the final part of Dus Robado, Tornado Break or Renkai Buyou-zan precisely so the monsters don't get thrown all over the place.

-Tornado Dance: very, very powerful, clearly the best double saber PA in my book. Fast, decent PP cost, has tons of different uses. It rapes big monsters and bosses, it immediately scatters a tight group of monsters when in danger (protect the FT, as someone stated above), it's also the fastest means of transportation so far http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Reginaldo]

On 2007-06-22 05:47, Hrith wrote:
I laugh everytime someone compares Renkai Buyou-zan to Gravity Dance.
Gravity Dance has over twice the range of Renkai Buyou-zan.


I have had all three double sabers at Lv30 for a while, and well...

-Spiral Dance: haven't found a use for it. The knockdown on the first part of the combo is really nice, but it's supposed to be a damage PA, and it's a lot weaker than Assault Crush, Dus Daggas or Hishou Jinren-zan. It's also very hard to get all hits to connect on regular monsters, and on big monsters, Tornado Dance is much better, so Spiral Dance is a rather useless PA.

-Gravity Dance: quite an awesome PA, there, amazing range and 360 degree radius, good damage at the end, and the lack of knockback is actually a very good thing because you use AoE PAs on small monsters, and you do not want to send them flying; most of the time, people do not use the final part of Dus Robado, Tornado Break or Renkai Buyou-zan precisely so the monsters don't get thrown all over the place.

-Tornado Dance: very, very powerful, clearly the best double saber PA in my book. Fast, decent PP cost, has tons of different uses. It rapes big monsters and bosses, it immediately scatters a tight group of monsters when in danger (protect the FT, as someone stated above), it's also the fastest means of transportation so far http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



Hate to break it to you, but Spiral outdamages Tornado Dance as well. There is nothing hard about turning the control stick while doing spiral. The last three hits of spiral does about 200% damage.

Imo, Gravity and Tornado are both useless. Both cost more pp to use and do less damage.

[Hrith]

Spiral Dance outdamaging Tornado Dance http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Thank you.

How can people post such stupid things and hope not to ridicule themselves?

Or wait, did you mean the full Spiral Dance combo does more damage? that is even more ridiculous.

Spiral Dance is by far the least useful double saber PA, anything it does the other two do much better.

And for the damage part, using the same weapon with no elemental bonus on the same monster:

Weapon: Crea Doubles, thunder element
Monster: Kog Nadd, to make sure every hit landed, which strongly favours Spiral Dance

-Spiral Dance hits two targets 3/2/3 times = 16 hits (hitting two targets 3 times each with the final part is never gonna happen, but whatever)
Average of 330 damage = 5280
Time to execute Spiral Dance against monsters = 4.8 seconds
DPS = 1100
PP used for a full combo = 45

-Gravity Dance hits two targets 4 times, then three targets 2/1 times = 17 hits (no knockback and huge range = easy to land all 17 hits)
Average of 300 damage = 5100
Time to execute Gravity Dance against monsters = 5.0 seconds
DPS = 1020
PP used for a full combo = 60

-Tornado Dance hits two targets 4 times = 8 hits (immediate and very fast knockback move, has tons of different uses)
Average of 410 damage = 3280
Time to execute Tornado Dance against monsters = 1.8 seconds
DPS = 1822
PP used for a full combo = 34


http://aerfen.free.fr/rly/cat_fact.png



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-06-22 17:04 ]</font>

[Freshellent]

On 2007-06-13 11:02, NIloklives wrote:

Advanced use of spiral dance: Spiral dance is one of the easiest moves to finesse in this game. this means I have incredible control over where it's going or what it's at any given time. I can use it in a rotating sweep to wipe out 6 enemies instead of 2 or 3, then on the follow up turn 180 dagrees and kick two them away to keep away and surprises from behind. THEN turn around again and finish the combo hitting 3 enemies with the full on final attack. using a similar mathod, on can actually stunlock multiple large enemies at once. it's a bit dangerous, but once you're confident in your ability, you party will thank you for making it so easy to take out a group of jarbas. but then again, if you're not confident, or the enemies are too widely dispersed, find another method of attack.



This is one of the best ways I've seen this explained,it alone should prove that Gravity is less useful as a crowd controlling PA.


On 2007-06-22 04:35, NIloklives wrote:
gravity is pointless. the damage output is average and the cost is too high for the effect. put that on top of the fact that the weapon it's on is just not good for comboing with and you get a worthless PA. at least renkai is fast and gets in enough hits to make up for he lower damage. the range isn't great, but gravity's is just as worthless wince the staggering is just about nonexistant. S2 enemies walk right through both. but renkai is much more spammable.

Spiral is very different from buten and if you think they're the same you cleary haven't used spiral enough. that PA is a damage monster and the simple fact that it knocks things over or away on every hit makes it better than buten especially against big enemies. if you can't control spiral dance, you need more practice. I'm sorry, but the only moves easier to control than spiral are anything that starts with rising. Spiral is easy to use, fast and has excellent damage. My post before may be long, but it's worth reading and I suggest you do it.



He's got pretty valid points,your going to use spiral on a mob much more than you would any other PA,really it hits so well,it just requires you to move your stick a little. I've found myself doing this to break up Vanda mobs no sweat,and if I feel, Vahras. It's a matter of placement,timing etc. I find myself using gravity less and less,a spear will do the trick if you want that sort of PA.

[Hrith]

Factual numbers > experience.

Saying Gravity Dance hits for "much less [damage]" is wrong, there's not 100 difference in DPS, and assuming Spiral Dance connects all 16 hits, which almost never happens on small-medium monsters.

Gravity Dance is better because for the same damage, you get quite a few bonuses:
-easy to connect all 17 hits
-no knockback at the end (knockback is very annoying on small monsters, what AoE PAs should be used against)
-huge range and 360 degree radius

It makes the higher PP cost well worth it. Double Sabers have high PP, anyway.


I'm not sure what you mean by "spears will do the job". Dus Robado is not that much more efficient that Gravity Dance, it costs even more PP (on weapons with lower PP), and Fighgunners do not get S grade spears -- while three S grade double sabers are released.


The only reason I use Gravity Dance less is because Tornado Dance is just too good, as I proved above.

[Niloklives]

If you reread what I posted I never once made mention of DPS. because I was not speaking to DPS I was talking about hit for hit, which PA hurts more. but since you wanna bring up DPS, lets reevaluate your DPS and compare it to costs. because if there really IS no difference in DPS, and you've made no valid argument to speak to how USEFUL gravity dance is, then couple with that the fact that spiral actually costs less than your same DPS, lower usefulness PA, I'm really having a hard time seeing where gravity dance wins any points.

gravity may in fact excecute faster than spiral, which is what gets its DPS to even being the same as spiral in the first place. but if grav will never finish on S2, does nothing for crowd control AND costs more to even attempt, the rough translation here is that you're using more PP per second for the same potential DPS with less benefit to yourself and your party...So at BEST you're wasting PP. This sounds like a bad plan.

And to argue that tornado is the best PA for DS really just removes any credibility you might have had. great crowd control, low damage output and high cost. but even then the crowd control is the bad kind as you can't really choose where the enemies are going and end up just scattering targets for the rest of the party....nice.

FURTHERMORE you can't calculate the DPS based on when the hits start and end. you have to start the clock from the moment you press the button and watch your character wind up to the time they stop spinning, stand up again and are able to perform the PA once more. It's a lot longer than 1.8 seconds so your data is certainly skewed.tornado slows down when it hits stuff and takes more like 4-5 seconds to perform. on top of that, the odds of hitting those 8 times is about the same as getting all the hits on spiral to connect, but you can control spiral - which puts its (Tornado Dance's) DPS below 1k. less than either of the other options according to your data.

Robado is good because it's a safe move which is important on higher difficulties. so if it's more effecicent,however slight that difference might be, paying 500 meseta for a photon charge is better than paying out the nose for mates or god forbid you end up using a scape. yeah making up an excuse to use that double saber was totally worth 5000 meseta each time you waste one.

I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. if you really like gravity more than spiral it's because you think your character looks cooler performing gravity than they do with spiral. that's it. no numbers, no practical application; just asthetics - which is fine if you can say: "I really like gravity dance, because I look cool using it...that's all". But trying to justify it with arguments about actual applied uses in combat is what makes so many people go "ah geez...not another fighgunner" every time they see a double saber.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-06-22 20:07 ]</font>

[Lonzell]

You know what most of your problems is? You don't know when to use your PAs and in what situations. Gravity Dance isn't a 'crowd control'. Its a PA thats best to use in a crowd because of the fact that it doesn't SCATTER the crowd. You aren't keeping the crowd in check... you are dealing decent damage, while at the same time allowing a force to use his AoE spells in conjunction with your damage.

Using Spiral Dance means that you are keeping mobs unbalanced and choosing which mobs you want to fly in whichever direction you want them to go. Its a good move to keep dangerious mobs off balance, bad move to use if you are with a force that you want to have everything effectively within his spell range.

Also a lot of people are getting potential damage confused with what the literal damage is that we actually dish out in live battle. Spiral's second string will kick a small mob away, meaning the damage from the third string isn't going to the same mob. So it only deals half damage to that, which the rest of the damage is directed to a second mob. Either that, or you turn yourself so that the kick intentionally misses the mob you attacked with the first string, then you turn back to it with the last string to deal the heaviest damage. Either way, ALL hits do not connect on the same mob, unless they are frozen in place, or trapped in a corner.

Of course there are large mobs, which don't fly away from you... but we have something better than those. It's called Tornado dance. The damage is faster, and has the LEAST chance of getting interrupted. Its multiple consecutive hits on larger mobs in a rappid string that not only staggers the mob, but more times than not is a sure connect of all of the hits before even getting a chance of beign interrupted by some other mob's attacks. Where is with Spiral Dance, you are always in danger of not getting off the last string of your combo because of being knocked flat on your ass.

[KamiSori]

On 2007-06-22 04:35, NIloklives wrote:
gravity is pointless. the damage output is average and the cost is too high for the effect. put that on top of the fact that the weapon it's on is just not good for comboing with and you get a worthless PA. at least renkai is fast and gets in enough hits to make up for he lower damage. the range isn't great, but gravity's is just as worthless wince the staggering is just about nonexistant. S2 enemies walk right through both. but renkai is much more spammable.

Spiral is very different from buten and if you think they're the same you cleary haven't used spiral enough. that PA is a damage monster and the simple fact that it knocks things over or away on every hit makes it better than buten especially against big enemies. if you can't control spiral dance, you need more practice. I'm sorry, but the only moves easier to control than spiral are anything that starts with rising. Spiral is easy to use, fast and has excellent damage. My post before may be long, but it's worth reading and I suggest you do it.



im sorry but i dont understand how you can favor renkai over gravity dance. the horrible range and weak damage output make it far more useless than gravity dance. its crappy range makes the skill extremely easy to interupt. i almost always complete the full combo of gravity every time i use it plus the stagger it creates is a great defensive tactic. while when using renkai i am practically a sitting duck and even if i somehow complete renkai the last hit sends enemies flying away (much worse than gravity's smackdown). not to mention the final hit of gravity dance can easily hit for over 1,000 damage.

i used to think spiral dance was the best double saber PA aswell. hell i leveled it up to 30 before any other D.S. PAs so i can safely say that i have used spiral dance plenty. its a good PA but its just 1 knockdown attack then 2 knock away attacks. Buten shurenzan is far more efficient for knocking enemies down and if you really want a knockaway attack then tornado dance is far more powerful. Spiral dance is a good PA but not the best.

if you want to use your double saber to its full potential then you will definetly need all PAs. i lol at people who try to say the double saber sucks. its got a PA for almost every situation! just please dont try to say that gravity dance sucks, it exceeds all other AoE attacks with a balance of range, speed, and power.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KamiSori on 2007-06-22 20:12 ]</font>

[Lonzell]

My Gravity Dance hardly gets interrupted lol

[KamiSori]

On 2007-06-22 20:13, Lonzell wrote:
My Gravity Dance hardly gets interrupted lol



which is why Graviy>Renkai

[Niloklives]

tornado is only a better alternative against large mobs when there;s only one of them and they're only really succeptable to knock back. the cost on tornado is too high to justify it otherwise. Also I DID make mention of the fact that gravity causes pop up rather than knockback and how this was a unique trait. but it's an utterly useless one in the end because the move it self is not safe.

if you wanna discuss just how situational gravity is, you're talking about being in a party with a smart force, while someone else is drawing aggro and everyone is keeping a group of enemies (which really can be no more than 3 seeing as how the last hit is the only good thing about this PA) together which lets you keep this group off their feet while they get beat on with DAM techs. So now you'r telling me that's the only place this skill is worth mention? weird...cause...the first hit of spiral...effectively does the same thing as the LAST hit of gravity...and it cost me less...and took less work to do it. yet there's the mob...all layed out in the same place they were just standing....just as subjectable to whatever the force wanted to do...So...where does gravity prove superiority? or even equality?

once again, if you really wanna use gravity, go for it. if you really want all three DS skills, go for it. But one cannot deny that spiral is a much more versatile PA than the other two while remaining one of the safest AND managing to pull higher DPS at the lowest cost. and any negative argument made about spiral's knockback goes double for tornado, so lets not go there.

Furthermore I hardly see what you're laughing about lonzell. you're either not playing S2 or are not drawing rage when you use it. And I'm not an advocate of renkai. I stopped using renkai and gravity when I learned dus robado. my point was that NEITHER is any good. the argument one makes about gravity's last hit is moot because the hits leading up to it don't guarentee the last hit will EVER connect.

[Hrith]

On 2007-06-22 19:42, NIloklives wrote:
Robado is good because it's a safe move which is important on higher difficulties. so if it's more effecicent,however slight that difference might be, paying 500 meseta for a photon charge is better than paying out the nose for mates or god forbid you end up using a scape. yeah making up an excuse to use that double saber was totally worth 5000 meseta each time you waste one.So because you suck at using Gravity Dance, it's bad?
This post alone shows how mistaken you are.


I could keep going, but I think I've made my point.That you suck at using Gravity Dance, yeah.

When people use the "you're gonna lose a scape doll" kind of argument, they obviously have nothing factual to say, so your 'point' is null and void.


if you really like gravity more than spiral it's because you think your character looks cooler performing gravity than they do with spiral.No, I factually proved why Gravity is better. If you cannot accept being proven wrong, don't go to video game forums http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Trying to put me down by saying I choose aesthetics over efficiency only serves to confirm this.

Especially while I'm the only one who posted factual evidence [that Spiral Dance is the worst double saber PA], all you seem to be able to do is use extremely subjective experience to go against facts, go you.

And you must not be very good at using Tornado Dance if you think it's only good on big monsters. Tornado Dance has many more uses than just that, like preventing a Gaozoran to cast, a robot to explode near the group, etc.


And if you want to compare to other weapons, Spiral Dance gets even worse.
Assault Crush, Moubu Seiren-zan, Hishou Jinren-zan, Dus Daggas, Spinning Break (maybe forgot a few) all have much higher DPS than Spiral Dance, which makes it even less useful to a Fighgunner.
Whereas there is no other PA a Fighgunner can use which can successfully replace Gravity Dance, let alone Tornado Dance.


You're wrong, stop ridiculing yourself and accept it. I won't waste any more of my time explaning to a person apparently not mature enough to accept being wrong that going against hard numbers only makes them less and less credible.

[Lonzell]

On 2007-06-22 22:20, NIloklives wrote:
tornado is only a better alternative against large mobs when there;s only one of them and they're only really succeptable to knock back. the cost on tornado is too high to justify it otherwise. Also I DID make mention of the fact that gravity causes pop up rather than knockback and how this was a unique trait. but it's an utterly useless one in the end because the move it self is not safe.

if you wanna discuss just how situational gravity is, you're talking about being in a party with a smart force, while someone else is drawing aggro and everyone is keeping a group of enemies (which really can be no more than 3 seeing as how the last hit is the only good thing about this PA) together which lets you keep this group off their feet while they get beat on with DAM techs. So now you'r telling me that's the only place this skill is worth mention? weird...cause...the first hit of spiral...effectively does the same thing as the LAST hit of gravity...and it cost me less...and took less work to do it. yet there's the mob...all layed out in the same place they were just standing....just as subjectable to whatever the force wanted to do...So...where does gravity prove superiority? or even equality?

once again, if you really wanna use gravity, go for it. if you really want all three DS skills, go for it. But one cannot deny that spiral is a much more versatile PA than the other two while remaining one of the safest AND managing to pull higher DPS at the lowest cost. and any negative argument made about spiral's knockback goes double for tornado, so lets not go there.

Furthermore I hardly see what you're laughing about lonzell. you're either not playing S2 or are not drawing rage when you use it. And I'm not an advocate of renkai. I stopped using renkai and gravity when I learned dus robado. my point was that NEITHER is any good. the argument one makes about gravity's last hit is moot because the hits leading up to it don't guarentee the last hit will EVER connect.



All Sprial is good for is knocking things off their ass... and if you want to NOT knock everything around, then the only way to make Spiral effective is to keep spaming the first animation of it, and never lead it into the second. As Gravity is the best for dealing consistant damage, because of you not sending the mob you are tryin gto damage FLYIN away from you, which breaks the stream of damage inflicted.

You can not, and I repeat, can NOT pull higher DPS in most situation against smaller mobs with Spiral BECAUSE of the knockback. Unless of course the mob is frozen, or pinned against a wall, and even then it isn't going to do it 100% of the times. Unless you are just saying to spam the first part on only one mob, which I can see, but you're gimping your potential to damage your surrounding enemies as well by just focusing on one small member of an entire horde. Like TD, Spiral should only really be used for larger mobs, or used to knock back enemies safely and in whatever direction you want.

Also I do mean when running S2 ESPECIALLY, being as you make sure you are preforming Gravity in the correct positioning so that a mob doesn't end up attacking your ass. And on the third part of it, you make sure to position yourself so that your target has multiple triggers in it to cause pop out at the end.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lonzell on 2007-06-23 08:29 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

I think you missed the point I made earlier. and that is DSes are worthless on small mobs. there are better more powerful weapons for a FG to use against them. better than gravity, better than tornado, better than SPIRAL. DSes are not an omni weapon. if you're yalking straight up DPS any situation where you could use gravity, try using dus dagas instead. I kill 2 or three times faster using that move than I could every hope to with anything a DS can muster. I ONLY use my DS on larger mobs, or things that remain stationary when hit or when I can use Tornado to knock somthing on its ass like a kamatose. if it weren't for the special properties of spiral and tornado, I'd use my muktrand and shiratsuno collection all day. Gravity has lower DPS than either of those weapons' favored PAs, is more risky and is less useful. my DS is used only in situations where I want to keep my enemy staggered or off their feet entirely. and I promise you I kill faster and live longer than any ignorant FG who with defend gravity dance with their life.

Hrith, you clearly think you invented this game. you've only proven that you're insane the way you rant and produce skewed data to suit your needs. say whatever you want, but until you make a point other than "I like gravity more" I have nothing to say to you.

[Almighty_Envy]

Spiral Dance is my favorite double saber pa, but its the worst.

[Lonzell]

It kinda goes without saying that other weapons can take the place in a heart beat for DPS. But i'm only talking about the preformance of DBSabers preformance comparison to its 3 PAs, not in comparison to other weapons.

Gravity and TD > Spiral in most situations i've come across personally on the field of gameplay, dispite that on paper, Spiral seems and looks more appealing with its higher potential damage output. (Even tho that potential in all reality is only reached in the most rarest of situations)

[Hrith]

On 2007-06-23 14:19, NIloklives wrote:
Hrith, you clearly think you invented this game. you've only proven that you're insane the way you rant and produce skewed data to suit your needs. say whatever you want, but until you make a point other than "I like gravity more" I have nothing to say to you.Nice try, but try again. The more you try to go against facts, the more you make me laugh.

Now double sabers have become "bad weapons" to make up for your lack of arguments, ridiculous to no end.

[Lonzell]

I still say DBSabers > all weapons when it comes to most large mobs, single and multi-target. Less chances for interuption, and the ones that become staggered end up in a stun lock with you alone, like Bil De Vears.

[Niloklives]

right, against large monsters they're great, but against small to midsize I don't reccoemhd them. and since there are may more and far better options than a DS against small mobs I use those options instead of a DS. but my point was that in the situations where a DS WAS the better choice, it was not becuase of gravity dance. so if you WERE going to get a DS and there was only ONE PA you were going to pick up, gravity dance should NOT be it.

[Lonzell]

Gravity dance should be it, unless you are the type of player who only focuses on damaging one mob at a time rather than all the ones in the surrounding area, and you like scattering them away from the other players and out of Fortetecher AoE range.

My play style works in conjunction with other players, and are done with this setup for PAs. Gravity dance for groups of multiple small mobs, spiral dance for mid sized mobs, and TD for large mobs. Thats the best suited situation for each of those PAs.

[Hrith]

Just because you accused me of making up figures.

I used a different setting, because higher numbers allow for better comparison.
So I maximized my damage:
-38% light Crea Doubles
-Mega / Power
-Unsafe Passage A, Lv30 Pannon (Linear Line C or B monsters cannot take a full combo)
-I got slightly different results when timing Spiral Dance and Gravity Dance, maybe because of different monsters. It's all in favour or Spiral Dance, anyway.

The weapon:
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/crea_doubles4.png


The PAs:
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/spiral_dance30.png
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/gravity_dance30.png
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/tornado_dance30.png


The damage:
Spiral Dance
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/spiral_dance_damage1.png
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/spiral_dance_damage2.png
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/spiral_dance_damage3.png


Gravity Dance
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/gravity_dance_damage1.png
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/gravity_dance_damage2.png
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/gravity_dance_damage3.png


Tornado Dance
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/tornado_dance_damage1.png


The maths:

Spiral Dance
315 x 6 = 1890
400 x 4 = 1600
565 x 6 = 3390
1890 + 1600 + 3390 = 6880
6880 / 4.7 = 1464 DPS

Gravity Dance
325 x 8 = 2600
475 x 6 = 2850
785 x 3 = 2355
2600 + 2850 + 2355 = 7805
7805 / 5.3 = 1473 DPS

Tornado Dance
480 x 8 = 3840
3840 / 1.8 = 2133 DPS


The higher the damage gets, the more Gravity Dance gets an edge in damage over Spiral Dance.

Since you like it:
Spiral Dance 1464 / 45 = 32.5 damage per PP for one second.
Gravity Dance 1473 / 60 = 24.5 damage per PP for one second.
Tornado Dance 2133 / 34 = 62.7 damage per PP for one second.
This is mostly irrelevant when playing, anyway, Anga Redda, Shousen Totsuzan-ga, Gravity Strike, Hisou Jinren-zan, Assault Crush and Dus Robado are very good PAs, despite the PP cost.

[Lonzell]

Hrith....? Have my babies... please...?

[PJ]

On 2007-06-24 11:04, Lonzell wrote:
Hrith....? Have my babies... please...?



Oh please, Kef isn't that amaz...

wait a second... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

It amazes me how easily Kef owned this topic and people still try to argue.

It reminds me of the people who go Fighgunner and then specifically avoid Double Sabers http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

EDIT: Also, Kef's characters can't have your babies because they're too manly.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2007-06-24 12:49 ]</font>

[Lonzell]

Wtf? Who are you to say who Kef's characters can and can't have the babies of!

[Hrith]

No, no, no, no, PJ, Terra is no longer manly http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif (God, I had totally forgotten about that).

[Lonzell]

lmao

[Reginaldo]

Kubara weapons do less pa damage..