Everything about techs! (elitist guide)

[Tra]

I made this guide specially for those that are particularly interested... which means that not a lot of you are. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

1. We'll see how tech damage is calculated
2. We'll see how fast each tech can be cast using rod/wand and different units
3. How do we compare to the other forte classes?
4. We'll compare damage between those that are playing half-ass at fT and those that are hardcore
5. What happens in the future in AoI?

before that, here's a link to my other guide, it's about leveling your techs, quite closely important concerning this guide. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=133610&forum=22&start=0&56

************************************************** *********

Section 1: Tech Damage

Tech damage is calculated in 5 steps.

---------

Step 1:
Your base TP, your unit, your weapon, your armor are totalled up.

Example:

I am an 80/10 newman female fT

1287 is my base TP
I'll add in 280, from my Sori / TECH Charge unit
704 from a Howrod +10

Note: The TP from your armor (hiragi-senba, yamata-senba, kotoha-senba etc) will not show.

Totals 2271 TP

---------

Step 2:
Your total TP is multiplied by the damage multiplier of each tech, then divided by 5

Level 30 Diga (280%): 6358
Level 30 Zonde(135%): 3065

divided by 5

Diga: 1271 damage
Zonde: 613 damage

---------

Step 3:

Retier, simply increases your damage.
Level 1 Retier (1-10) : 10%
Level 2 Retier (11-20) : 15%
Level 3 Retier (21-30) : 20%

Level 3 Retier with diga and zonde

Diga: 1525 damage
Zonde: 735 damage
...is the damage you will get if you hit a non-opposite element monster
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/332/psu20070614163149004vu8.jpg
---------

Step 4:
Elemental weakness is calculated by...


This is something that very, very many people are ignorant of. It's a little hard to explain, but to dumb it down, EVERY level you gain on a tech, the elemental modifier increases as well. You'll notice this as you level up a tech on the same type of monster, you'll be doing less and less damage. (Diga for example, if you spam it on earth enemies, each level you gain, you'll deal less and less damage). I will provide screenshot proof if anybody wishes to inquire.

Here are their elemental modifiers in tiers of levels (1, 10, 20, 30)
Level 1 Techs: 11% elemental
Level 10 Techs: 20% elemental
Level 20 Techs: 30% elemental
Level 30 Techs: 40% elemental

If you understand this, you'll understand that there is a big difference in damage between a level 21 tech and a level 30 tech. It is not just the damage modifier that the status window shows you. A level 21 rabarta compared to a level 30 rabarta is about 200 damage in difference! That's a very, very significant amount. (Around 25% more). So make sure, if you want to do your best, do your very, very best and max those techs. =)

Another example is, when you first buy a level 1 tech, try it out on a neutral monster first (barta against a lightning monster), then try it another monster, one with elemental weakness (barta against a fire monster). You'll see that it isn't 50% more damage as most people perceived, not nearly as much.

so anyway...

Level 30 Diga: 2135 damage
Level 30 Zonde: 1029 damage
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1476/psu20070614163133002lh4.jpg
---------

Step 5:
Elemental modifier of the weapon you're using...

Rod can reach 12%, Wand can reach 4%. The elemental damage only comes in if you're using the right elemental on the right monster. (12% ice rod does nothing if you are hitting an earth monster, only fire)

12% rod

Level 30 Diga: 2391 damage
Level 30 zonde: 1153 damage

Like so: =)
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5579/psu20070613021252000li4.jpg


---------

Step 6:

Finally... MST deduction is calculated after your initial tech damage.
The calculation goes by MST / 4

Say a level 80 enemy has 287 MST
that means he'll reduce your damage by about 72 every hit.

Diga: 2319 damage
Zonde: 1190 damage

If not used on an elemental weakness...

Diga: 1453 damage
Zonde: 663 damage


---------

Steps 2, 3, 4 and 5 can be calculated in any order. =)



************************************************** *********

Section 2: Cast Times

Many people argue about which unit is best and don't have any exact proof of what they are saying. I have it all here.

Level 1+ Techs


Wand (Casts per minute)
. . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic Techs . .40 . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . . . . . 42
Ra Techs . ... .34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42
Gi Techs . .. . 32 . . . . . . . . . 37 . . . . . . . . . . 40
Dam Techs . . 12 . . . . . . . . . 12 . . . . . . . . . . 12
Megiverse . .. 6.5 . . . . .. . . . 6.5 . . . . . . . . . . 6.5
Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
Buffs/Debuffs .34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42
Giresta . .. . . 18 . . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . . . 30
Resta . . .. . . 36 . . . . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . . . . 42
Reverser . .. . 40 . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . . . . . 42


----------------------------

Level 11+ Techs


Wand (Casts per minute)
. . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
-----------------------------------------------------------
Basic Techs . .38 . . . . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . . . . 40
Ra Techs . ... .32 . . . . . . . . . 37 . . . . . . . . . . 40
Gi Techs . .. . 30 . . . . . . . . . 36 . . . . . . . . . . 38
Dam Techs . . 7.75 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . 8.25
Megiverse . .. 6.5 . . . . . .. . . 6.5 . . . . . . . . . . 6.5
Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
Buffs/Debuffs .32 . . . . . . . . . 37 . . . . . . . . . . 40
Giresta . .. . . 18 . . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . . . 30
Resta . . .. . . 34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42
Reverser . .. . 36 . . . . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . . . . 42


----------------------------

Level 21+ Techs


Rod (Casts per minute)
. . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
-----------------------------------------------------------
Basic Techs . .28 . . . . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . 32
Ra Techs . ... .24 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 29
Gi Techs . .. . 22 . . . . . . . . . 26 . . . . . . . . . . 28
Dam Techs . ..5.75(46). . . . . .6(48). . . . . . . . 6.25(50)
Megiverse . .. 5.75(28). . . . . .6(30). . . . . . . . 6.25(31)
Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
Buffs/Debuffs .24 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 29
Giresta . .. . . 15 . . . . . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . . . . 24
Resta . . .. . . 26 . . . . . . . . . 29 . . . . . . . . . . 30
Reverser . .. . 28 . . . . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . 32


Wand (Casts per minute)
. . . . . . . . . . No Quick . . . . . Me / Quick . . . . Har / Quick
-----------------------------------------------------------
Basic Techs . .36 . . . . . . . . . 39 . . . . . . . . . . 40
Ra Techs . ... .30 . . . . . . . . . 35 . . . . . . . . . . 36
Gi Techs . .. . 26 . . . . . . . . . 32 . . . . . . . . . . 36
Dam Techs . ..6(48). . . . . . . . 6.25(50). . . . . . 6.75(54)
Megiverse . .. 6(30). . . . . . . . 6.25(31). . . . . . 6.75(33)
Nos Techs . . .28 . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . 28
Buffs/Debuffs .30 . . . . . . . . . 35 . . . . . . . . . . 36
Giresta . .. . . 18 . . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . . . 30
Resta . . .. . . 32 . . . . . . . . . 36 . . . . . . . . . . 40
Reverser . .. . 34 . . . . . . . . . 38 . . . . . . . . . . 42

Nos-techs have an uncontrollable casting time. Meaning, you can cast quickly, the projectile comes out faster if you equip a quick unit, but you're going to be stuck there for a set duration which you won't be able to do anything until it's over. (not even able to open up your palette to ready a weapon switch or item)

Dam-techs tick their damage once every second, 8 times per cast. Pretty much multiply the number of casts shown above by 8 and you'll get how many times that the dam-tech hits. (Lv21+ only, I'm not bothering to do any of the dam-techs that are under lv21)

Megiverse ticks 5 times. Although it has the same duration as the dam-techs, it's missing its first 3 hits. Perhaps this is for balance reasons, as I can imagine it being a little too powerful. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif So just multiply those casts by 5.

Translation of the stats above...

Casts per minute Casting time


54................... 1.11 sec/cast
50................... 1.20 sec/cast
48................... 1.25 sec/cast
46................... 1.30 sec/cast
42................... 1.42 sec/cast

40................... 1.50 sec/cast
38................... 1.56 sec/cast
37................... 1.62 sec/cast
36................... 1.66 sec/cast
35................... 1.71 sec/cast

34................... 1.76 sec/cast
33................... 1.81 sec/cast
32................... 1.875 sec/cast
31................... 1.93 sec/cast
30................... 2.00 sec/cast

29................... 2.06 sec/cast
28................... 2.14 sec/cast
27................... 2.22 sec/cast
26................... 2.30 sec/cast
24................... 2.50 sec/cast

22................... 2.72 sec/cast
20................... 3.00 sec/cast
18................... 3.33 sec/cast
15................... 4.00 sec/cast

To get your dps down, take whatever damage you're currently dealing, match up with what you're using from the chart above, and divide that by the number you see in the "sec/cast" column.

Example:

Shooting lv16 Foie with a wand and a me/quick, doing 500 damage.

You go to the lv11+ tech section, you'll see that you're able to spam foie 40 times a minute. Then go to the next chart, and you'll see that 40 casts a minute means that you're casting once every 1.5 seconds.

Divide your damage by 1.5. 500 divided by 1.5 = 333 damage per second (dps).

If you're hitting multiple enemies, be sure to total the numbers up first.

************************************************** *********

Section 3:

So now that we understand exactly how our own techs work, how do we fare when it comes to comparing with other classes?

Crossbows, mechguns and shotguns all shoot 240 times a minute.
Twin guns, 160
Rifle, 100
Laser, 60
Grenade, 60

So what does that mean?

If you see a fortegunner with a crossbow, mech or shottie, doing 350 a hit... that translates into 350 x 240 / 60 = 1400dps. This is absolutely not the highest potential a fortegunner can reach, (yak zagenga can reach 550 a hit, which is 2200dps!!)


So how are we doing?

My rabarta can reach 1000 per hit, with my har/quick. 36 times a minute. If I hit 3 targets all the time, that translates into 1800dps. Barely above most of the fG guns. Thing is though... those guns are able to focus all of their bullets into one target, whereas a ra-tech can only hit a single target once. So when there's only one monster left, you've got no choice to use a basic tech, where the dps is quite low, while guns can easily stack their damage into that same one target without having to change anything.

Gi-techs and dam-techs is pretty much our only hope. Even so, that gi-tech needs to be maxed, with a har/quick (which not everybody has) to maximize damage. If you're hitting 4 targets or more consistently, then yes your damage is unmatched. But the question is, how often does this opportunity come to you? That's up to you to make it happen as often as you can.

Fortefighters are a whole different deal. When squared with monsters that are cake, or just have no resistance or any annoying-dodgy AI, like badiras and such, their damage (when maxed, of course), can equal even a full force dam-tech. But... that's always not going to happen. A damn good fortefighter obviously will refrain from doing most of the third part of a PA combo during a party as to not blow the monsters away and ruin it for everybody else. Even then, their damage is maybe a consistent 2000dps (if they're good, of course). But this isn't a melee guide, I won't be getting further into this.


************************************************** *********

Section 4: Comparison

So now that we have all the calculations out of the way... lets do some elitist comparison shall we? This section isn't for everybody, just for those that care. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
I wanna start off with the biggest gap a 80/10 newman fT can have.

Rabarta

80/10 newman fT (1287 tp)
Sta / Force (No Quick, +50tp)
Level 21 Rabarta 142% damage, ~31% elemental damage
Howrod +10 (704 tp), 0% non-elemental (probably put resta on the rod)
2041 TP
Retier

2041 TP x 142% + 34% + 20% / 5 = 911 damage
So you're doing ~911 damage x 3. 24 times a minute.
911 x 24 x 3 = 65606 damage a minute / 60 seconds = 1093 damage per second


80/10 newman fT (1287 tp)
Har / Quick (-100tp)
Level 30 Rabarta 160% damage, 40% elemental damage
Majimra +10 (612 tp), 4% elemental
1799 TP
Retier

1799 TP x 160% + 40% + 20% + 4% / 5 = 1005 damage
~1005 damage x 3, 36 times a minute.
1005 x 36 x 3 = 108629 damage a minute / 60 seconds = 1810 damage per second


Quite a big difference eh? 65% more damage http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Better start using the right weapons, element and maxed techs! Oh I didn't factor in armor TP either.

Okay more controversially...what about just wand vs. rod but with the same tech levels?

80/10 newman fT (1287 tp)
Har / Quick (-100tp)
Level 30 Rabarta 160% damage, 40% elemental damage
Howrod +10 (704 tp), 12% elemental
1891 TP
Retier

1891 TP x 160% + 40% + 20% + 12% / 5 = 1138 damage
1179 damage x 3, 29 times a minute

1179 x 29 x 3 = 99057 damage a minute / 60 seconds = 1650 damage per second

I didn't factor in monster MST.

So wand does about 10% more overtime with ra- techs. Factor in the ease of the decreased cast time, it would probably be better. =) However, Sori / TECH Charge + Wand rules the ra-techs in pure damage, however, the Har / Quick makes landing the ra-techs very easy. The gap widens with single target techs.

So does wand > rod?
No... not always

Techs that don't rely as much on cast time (such as dambarta, which you spam a lot less, since it lasts very long) rods will win at.
Dam- techs
Nos- techs
Megiverse
You can do the calculations yourself.



************************************************** *********

Section 5: The future

Fortechers get level 40 techs in AoI. Many say this is isn't much and think it's the end of the fortechers because acrotechers replace them. I would say not.

Level 40 Techs, I'm going to conjecture that the elemental damage on level 40 techs is 50% (40% at lv30). Simply that, is a very significant amount. Foie and diga gain 3% per level instead of 2%, starting at lv31 and on. Lets see the difference!

This is at level 80/10 (yes, in AoI, the cap will be raised and there will be better items as well)
Diga (wand, then rod)
1287 + 280 + 612 = 2179 TP
Level 30 Diga = 280% = 6101 / 5 = 1220 damage
1220 + 40% (lv30 elemental) + 4% (wand) + 25% (lv31 retier) = 2220 damage
Acrotechers will do slightly less than this with their diga.

Level 40 Diga = 310% = 6754 / 5 = 1350 damage
1350 + 50% (lv40 elemental) + 4% (wand) + 25% (lv31 retier) = 2634 damage

18% more damage

Level 40 Diga with rod = 2956 damage... mmm... quite a high number =)



Dambarta (with a rod)
1287 + 280 + 704 = 2271 TP
Level 30 Dambarta = 130% + 40% + 12% + 25% = 5786 / 5 = 1157 damage
Level 40 Dambarta = 140% + 50% + 12% + 25% = 6676 / 5 = 1335 damage


15% more damage (acrotechers can't use rods at all, they're stuck with wands so this part is moot)

Don't forget, acrotechers don't have as much TP than fortechers in the first place,that means that the gap is wider, although the 30% retier narrows it a little, I'd have an aT whore with me all the time. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Wait, scratch that, I'd rather just have a second fT rather than an aT, even in a party of 6.

So there are tons of factors here that can still effect your damage, increase or reduce, such as which units you use and what level retier, increased casting times of lv31+ techs, and otherwise. But okay, all of our level 3 status effects are increased to level 4. All of our techs are just... literally, increased in size... everything is gigantic. Hope that helps when it comes to AoI.

In essence, pretty much the only point of choosing a newman acrotecher (over say, a beast acrotecher) is if you wanted that extra 5% in support techs, yet failing in offensive techs. You could've chosen to just be a fortecher, because your melee is shit anyway. Or you could've chosen to be a beast acrotecher, where your melee is pretty much as strong as a beast wartecher after all buffs, ranged is both superior to fortecher and wartecher, and still support your party just as well as a newman acroteccher can.



Ask questions here (hate comments especially), and have fun! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-14 15:34 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-15 21:02 ]</font>

[Arika]

Welcome back http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

EDIT :so this topic suggest beast aT > newman aT http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

either way, my main is fT, nvm to me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_innocent.gif
(AT just for fun)




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Arika on 2007-06-14 02:31 ]</font>

[Dj_SkyEpic]

I got to say that you've done a pretty good job calculating all of these. O..o

Keep updating >3 Maybe this spot will give me a chance to place some more inputs too =D

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dj_SkyEpic on 2007-06-14 02:34 ]</font>

[Sophia]

yay elitist guide! nice work cherry :3

[Sasamichan]

Hi Sophia ♥

[Eleina]

Wow alot of maths was done there...and seems to prove that the har quick / sori tech charge can be useful.. *sigh...returns to hunting them *

"Barely above most of the fG guns." + "Even so, that gi-tech needs to be maxed, with a har/quick (which not everybody has) to maximize " = I think I'll continue leveling my fG ;D

Still Nice guide ;D

[Ash1ey]

Alot of math indeed http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

[Siertes]

Man, how long has this thing been in the works? I've got to admire your dedication to this stuff.

Good job, I guess.

[ne1first]

Nice work cherry. Can't wait to read all the haters

[imfanboy]

Haters?

Nah.

...But I am wondering what his point is.

For the people who like to know what the numbers are, this can be useful - I've been wondering about exact times on casting speeds for a while now, especially with har/quick contrasted with me/quick. As usual, his figures add up.

Hey, Cherry, to get the rod casting times from 11-20 (an omission I noticed), why didn't you bump your class to Force for a little while? Since Force is capped at 20 it would be the perfect way to trial those Technics. I assume you went to guntecher and wartecher to get the wand stats... but did you forget about Force?


However, PSU is different from so many MMORPG games in that the numbers... well, fail to matter in any significant fashion. It's not a matter of life or death, or even major inconvenience, when comparing low to high DPS. Which is good, because a MAJOR problem with many other MMORPGs is that DPS matters so much that if you play a non-DPS class you get spat upon.

Laying aside specialty quests like we've been doing and enjoying the last few weeks, the difference between medium dps and high dps is only a few seconds per mob - you spend more time walking from mob spawn point to mob spawn point than DEALING with said spawns in a group of 4-6, unless a large mob pops up. In that case, any given class's DPS can be hosed depending on the spawn's immunities, such as a Jarba's to Technics, or a Polhavora's to Bullet Arts and melee. In those cases, you would rely on DoT effects to keep up your DPS, but those are not always reliable.

In smaller groups, DPS becomes more important, but even then the numbers still don't make a HUGE difference. In an evening's worth of runs with my newearl GT and a beastfemme FT (hah, talk about not class optimized!) as a pair in Mad Beasts S2 we were still doing runs in about 28-35 minutes or so. Yeah, a higher DPS pair might have been doing them in 20-30 minutes, but is that extra 5-10 minutes really worth all the squawking you do on forums about DPS and class optimization over everything?

(Even then, I wasn't using Yak Zagenga at low HP for ultimate DPS; when I found out that Yak Biga can burn Polhavoras and Jarbas I swapped to that for cheapness's sake in inflicting DoTs. I'm not some kind of magical Burn G tree; I don't have traps falling out of my arse!)

"Ah," but you say, "That extra 10 minutes adds up an extra run every hour - in the time you do 3 runs, I can be doing 4!" Which means... oh dear, I may have to spend more time playing the game in order to find what I want. Such a terrible fate! Imagine, having to spend more time with my friends, chatting and enjoying myself!

Quality over quantity, that's my motto. I like to kick back and enjoy my time, without stressing constantly - C-mode was a good example of fun stress, but I can't imagine how PSO would have been enjoyable had it ONLY been C-mode! Firebreak missions are fun, but I can't imagine how fun PSU would be with ONLY Firebreak-style timed missions!

Now, for those of you who do find that your quality IS in quantity, and that you rate DPS over everything else, that's fine. We all enjoy games in a different way; or at least I should hope we do.

What chafes my caboose is your attitude that your view is the only right one, the only POSSIBLE right one. The reason I'd want to kick you in the teeth (and hopefully cause you some expensive oral surgery) is because of that attitude. I can't stand people who think their opinion is the only right one and tries to force it on others - in religions, in politics, or even in something as trivial as a game. I believe it's indicative of something sick in a personality to behave that way.

Besides, let's face it, in 5 years this game won't matter. Possibly because Phantasy Star Galaxy will be coming out on the SuperWii, but more likely because most of us will have moved on to more important things. Is it really worth the fussin' an' th'feudin' yah do on 'ere?

Or is it the fussin' and the feudin' that you enjoy? n which case, I'll be sure to give you lots more of it, because I like to argue over pointless crap too. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif


EDIT: In case anyone's wondering, I do like the guide. It's necessary... or most of it is, at least. n_n

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-06-14 03:00 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

So what took so long for others to mention the hidden elemental mods on techs? I realized that months ago http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


On 2007-06-14 00:20, Tra wrote:
The calculation goes by MST / 4

It's 5, not 4.


On 2007-06-14 00:20, Tra wrote:
Many say this is isn't much and think it's the end of the fortechers because acrotechers replace them.

AT is entirely different from FT. Very different playing style. Don't know why people have so much trouble grasping that -_-


On 2007-06-14 00:20, Tra wrote:
Level 40 Techs, I'm going to conjecture that the elemental damage on level 40 techs is 50% (40% at lv30).

That's assuming they continue with the pattern. They have mentioned things that give the impression of changing how the elemental mod works. So even if it continues to climb at that rate, it won't have nearly the effect (since it should be obvious how they should work).


On 2007-06-14 00:20, Tra wrote:
In essence, pretty much the only point of choosing a newman acrotecher (over say, a beast acrotecher) is if you wanted that extra 5% in support techs, yet failing in offensive techs. You could've chosen to just be a fortecher, because your melee is shit anyway. Or you could've chosen to be a beast acrotecher, where your melee is pretty much as strong as a beast wartecher after all buffs, ranged is both superior to fortecher and wartecher, and still support your party just as well as a newman acroteccher can.

Congratulations for having no idea how the AT class even plays. Go ahead and be ignorant to the few people that actually played the class to its fullest during the beta and explained how it worked, just like all of the other narrow minded idiots here.

People also fail to realize that what was in the beta is not set in stone and may likely change in various places. If I were at ST, I would give ATs only lv 40 buffs and maybe increase it to 50 later on when they increase it for FTs as well. It's not only putting too much focus as support on the class which I don't think they intended for the class to be like since it plays entirely differently but also there shouldn't be just one class with one particular play style with max buffs. Bring back the PSO style where there were 4 class with max buff levels and various playing styles.

[amtalx]

Other poster's gripes aside, great guide! Now I might actually know what the hell I'm doing when I decide to pick up my Force again, haha (I'm a career ranger.)

[Dhylec]

Hm, the low-downs on techs - indeed, it's a geek's guide. Since this is a lesser-known aspect of the game, there is much to learn about, so update & keep it up. ;]

[Kyli]

THANK YOU to the OP for this one. I'm impressed especially with the numerical research in this one. I think this guide would be a benefit to anyone who's interested in the mechanics of the game, and how to best optimize their performance. There may have been a small part which was questionable (mostly the AT section due to lack of information for everyone at this point), but all in all it was rooted well in fact unlike many other guides I've seen available.

Great Job!

[JAFO22000]

Very nice guide. I didn't particularly read the whole thing as I don't need to break everything in this game down to it's algebraic roots (you know the old saying, "Don't ask how a hot dog is made, just eat it and you'll enjoy it more"....OK, maybe that's something I just made up, but you get it, don't you?!? Enjoy the show!), but it seems that a lot of time and effort went into this. Gotta respect that! This is great for those who want to really understand how these things work.

Only thing I would take exception to (you HAD to have seen this coming!) was the section on DPS. Seems like the OP is in a competition with other classes to do the most DPS at all times ("Gi-techs and dam-techs is pretty much our only hope", et al). Again, I don't play the game with a competitive edge towards other classes, but to each their own I suppose...

[panzer_unit]

Newman techers get huge advantages out of all these % bonuses and modifiers. What options do non-optimal races have for closing the gap?

All I can see is sticking closer to rods and TP units, to do what they can for base damage... along with extra element % boost... and obviously stick to rod-friendly spells like Nos- and Dam-

[Tra]

On 2007-06-14 03:26, Sounomi wrote:
So what took so long for others to mention the hidden elemental mods on techs? I realized that months ago http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
It's 5, not 4.

Did I not already prove how DFP works in this thread?
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=140817&forum=22

but anyway, I'll go through it again. It's much more simple this time.

Ageeta foies...
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u238/eleina01/psu20070615_002500_015.jpg

259 damage.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u238/eleina01/psu20070615_002515_016.jpg

Yamata Senba gives 136 MST. So being MST / 4 means that the damage reduction should give a 34 damage redution. (If it were MST / 5, it would be reduction damage by 27)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u238/eleina01/psu20070615_002801_017.jpg

There you have it. 42 damage reduction. Maybe you should try it out, provide your own screenshots.


AT is entirely different from FT. Very different playing style. Don't know why people have so much trouble grasping that -_-

You're right, cast/beast AT. Quite different than spamming techs.





Congratulations for having no idea how the AT class even plays. Go ahead and be ignorant to the few people that actually played the class to its fullest during the beta and explained how it worked, just like all of the other narrow minded idiots here.

See I don't get the idea where when somebody has played a class they automatically know everything about it. Do you think every single fortecher out here knows what they're doing? According to you, they do, since they've played the class! Yes I'm insulting your intelligence by saying that you really suck at the game, don't assume you're always right. No you didn't play AT to the fullest, you never even tried a beast AT so what the fuck are you talking about?


People also fail to realize that what was in the beta is not set in stone and may likely change in various places. If I were at ST, I would give ATs only lv 40 buffs and maybe increase it to 50 later on when they increase it for FTs as well. It's not only putting too much focus as support on the class which I don't think they intended for the class to be like since it plays entirely differently but also there shouldn't be just one class with one particular play style with max buffs. Bring back the PSO style where there were 4 class with max buff levels and various playing styles.

Since the last portion of my guide was entirely a conjecture based on the beta, I'll go ahead and repeat what I just said. AT can be played differently than fT. A cast or beast AT is not as gimped as a cast or beast fT. They're able to support better than fT already simply because they have lv41 techs. Along with the fact that they're quote able to fight, much more better than a fT. That's already two portions of how damage works. And as I said, a newman AT? Sure they might be able to support better than a fT still, but their melee just comes nowhere near a cast or a beast AT. You can say their attack tech are... okay. I see it as what the newman WTs are today, not very strong at all. Now if you want to argue this, argue it. Don't say "I'm right you're wrong, you're an idiot". Explain what's wrong with a beast AT. Explain how it's so important to be gimped at casting techs, along with being quite weak elsewhere. I'm going to say it again, maybe it might go through your thick head: It's a conjecture.
Similar to assumption:

That's assuming they continue with the pattern. They have mentioned things that give the impression of changing how the elemental mod works. So even if it continues to climb at that rate, it won't have nearly the effect (since it should be obvious how they should work).




and also Don't say "I'm right you're wrong, you're an idiot". , and if you really want to turn this little guide into a flamefest, fine by me. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[akratic]

Yes. A player can max out every expert class without actually knowing a thing about gameplay in any of them. But at the same time, a smart player can better evaluate two classes if he plays both. The former is certainly the more common instance, I'll grant you that!

[SolomonGrundy]

good guide, Tra. I'm not sure where Iamfanboy's get's the "your opinion is only the ONLY right one" from. I think he may be reading into it.

Two areas you may want to edit:
Techs, like all attacks, have some variable damage built into them. Posting high/low numbers might be cool.

You should probably edit out the entire section on ATs. I think you missed a big part of what makes AT attractive to people. Some players might want to help *everyone* in the party do 5-10% more damage (shifta, retrier, zalure), and be 5-10% more resistant (deband, retrier, jellen), then put up the highest numbers themselves. Some players might like the idea of having the option to whip out a saber, and melee. Perhaps they just like the idea of a tougher (higher HP/DFP), tech user.

either way the AT part of your guide could use some editing.

[imfanboy]

Comes from extensive conversations with Tra - you can see it in the very spot you asked him to edit. His 'opinion' on acrotechers is the only correct one because he sees them as playing in only a specific way that's useless if you have another fortetecher. *shrug* His opinion and he's welcome to it, but one should try to leave actual opinions out of guides, as he so forcefully told me in my fortetecher guide.

Hey Tra, what did you think of my idea about bumping to Force in order to get rod casting speeds from 11-20? Can't call it a comprehensive guide without as much as you can; I know that 1-10 would be pretty much impossible but...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-06-14 11:15 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-06-14 11:10, SolomonGrundy wrote:
good guide, Tra. I'm not sure where Iamfanboy's get's the "your opinion is only the ONLY right one" from. I think he may be reading into it.

Two areas you may want to edit:
Techs, like all attacks, have some variable damage built into them. Posting high/low numbers might be cool.

You should probably edit out the entire section on ATs. I think you missed a big part of what makes AT attractive to people. Some players might want to help *everyone* in the party do 5-10% more damage (shifta, retrier, zalure), and be 5-10% more resistant (deband, retrier, jellen), then put up the highest numbers themselves. Some players might like the idea of having the option to whip out a saber, and melee. Perhaps they just like the idea of a tougher (higher HP/DFP), tech user.

either way the AT part of your guide could use some editing.



Now where would my reputation as an elitist go if I took it out? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif And yes, it's because of topics like these http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=140122&forum=22 that I made that little section. (I got shima banned from the official forums, she hasn't posted in pso-w since, so I guess that's a good thing haha)

As for variable damage, it's real hard to determine, as some techs a bigger fluctuation than others... one day maybe. Actually I don't know really, I might not bother, because it really doesn't effect things much. Be my guest though heh...



Hey Tra, what did you think of my idea about bumping to Force in order to get rod casting speeds from 11-20? Can't call it a comprehensive guide without as much as you can; I know that 1-10 would be pretty much impossible but...

Reason I didn't bother with rods for lv1-20 is that it's for Forces, a basic job. This guide is mainly for Fortechers, I just added in lv1-20 wands just to be generous for the WT and GTs . As you can see anyhow, the lower leveled techs with rods are just temporary stepping stones. Also their cast time are all quite fast anyhow, so the difference wouldn't be all that special to read about. Btw I never said this was a comprehensive guide. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

I think in 5 years I'll be playing Starcraft 2 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Also I think PSU might be around for at least a decade (if Sega does it right)

As for the MST thing, once I get back from work I'll work it out with a much better example.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-14 12:17 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-14 14:18 ]</font>

[Astarin]

Thanks for exploring the numbers and formulas. No, it's not for everybody, but some of us find it fascinating. I'd been wondering just how all the modifiers add up, and now it's very clear.

[Sychosis]

As ugly as I think Tra's character is....God I love numbers, and the crunching of said numbers.

[Tra]

On 2007-06-14 17:30, Sychosis wrote:
As ugly as I think Tra's character is....God I love numbers, and the crunching of said numbers.



I took off my robe and chinese-wizard hat for a session with somebody in my room, and I forgot to put them back on... (no, I'm not kidding ><)

btw thanks for all the good comments everybody =)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-14 18:31 ]</font>

[RedCoKid]

I'd rather just have a second fT rather than an aT, even in a party of 6.Are you serious? I hope others don't catch on... I'll have no place to go. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cry.gif

[Pillan]

On 2007-06-15 06:16, RedCoKid wrote:

I'd rather just have a second fT rather than an aT, even in a party of 6.Are you serious? I hope others don't catch on... I'll have no place to go. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cry.gif


I hope not personally. Even though AT has on the order of 15% less technique damage, the gap decreases to 7% damage when you compare AT’s melee to fT’s tech (assuming neutral element in those numbers). Then you get to add in 7% more damage per party member because of the buff level difference and the fact that fT’s never debuff, so there’s a clear advantage to having an AT in your party if you have 3 or more players.

You can get rid of those Human and Newman ATs if you want, but you have to at least keep me around… right…?


Oh yeah, I forgot to say good job on your thread, so “good job.”



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-06-15 08:45 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-06-15 08:37, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-06-15 06:16, RedCoKid wrote:

I'd rather just have a second fT rather than an aT, even in a party of 6.Are you serious? I hope others don't catch on... I'll have no place to go. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cry.gif


I hope not personally. Even though AT has on the order of 15% less technique damage, the gap decreases to 7% damage when you compare AT’s melee to fT’s tech (assuming neutral element in those numbers). Then you get to add in 7% more damage per party member because of the buff level difference and the fact that fT’s never debuff, so there’s a clear advantage to having an AT in your party if you have 3 or more players.

You can get rid of those Human and Newman ATs if you want, but you have to at least keep me around… right…?


Oh yeah, I forgot to say good job on your thread, so “good job.”



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-06-15 08:45 ]</font>



Let me just say... oh definately an AT would be easier to have in a party, it doesn't matter how skilled they are, if they were dedicated enough to get their buffs to 41, that's good; everybody has lv5 buffs now!

So now, you have this AT, who buffed a group of forte's. What's he going to do now? His melee damage is absolutely dwarfed by forte's in a group of 6. Even more so if it's a newman AT, there's pretty much no point to melee if you are a newman AT. So if you are a newman AT, you still have techs right? Well great, you got some techs now. Lacking some damage compared to a fortecher, you're still good, right? You gave everybody a little boost in damage and... debuffs. That's fine for most of you, infact it's fine for me most of the time, but...

With any one of my excellent fT friends, I am quite synchronized with them well. They will all work for maxed techs along with me, so I don't have to worry about that. Buffs are synchronized, Techs are synchronized (http://psutopia.com/uploadr/view/157), everything. When all of it works together, especially with our boosted SE levels, everything just runs smoother, especially with SE4 on everything in the future.

So most of the time, you won't have a newman AT, and a beast or cast's AT damage will not make up the 5% boost for the rest of the party (in comparison to a second fT). A newman AT is just as well. It's awkward to be in a group just because you have an extra level of buffs no? Debuffs we only use on large monsters, not on every monster. Take into account that lv31 support techs are fine, as they give a 25% reduction already. All it takes is a fT to give out one casting and we're done with debuffs. A lv41 zalure compared to a lv31 Zalure is an extra 5-6 damage or so, for lv100 monsters. So I'm saying, debuffs aren't something to drool at. Mostly because they aren't necessary most of the time, and that being 5% better for the survival (compared to a fT)of the party, 1/5th of the time where you actually need to use debuffs when a large monster appears.

But this is all speculation no? Haha.

Honestly though, despite all what I just said, I think a beast or cast AT would be very, very fun to play. I would rate any good AT in my group 90%, fT being 100%. This is of course, if they bothered to get lv41 buffs in the first place. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Although don't get me wrong... when I said I'd take a fT, that fT better be a damn good fT, which not many are, because the damage and the ability to do everything correctly without messing up is a hard thing to achieve. If you can't, then there's no point in being able to deal more damage than an AT if you don't do more damage than an AT (due to a lack of an offensive playstyle which I see in so many fTs today). As an AT, you can focus more on support and it's fine for the rest of the party.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-06-15 09:57 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Yeah, I think we got through that confusion in our previous chat.

AT adds at least an additional 5% per person (it appears to be more due to enemy MST). Adding a tech spamming Newman AT to a party with 5 Newman fTs is more efficient than 6 fTs. (105% x 5 + 85% > 100% x 6). Yeah, you do get less range and less effect in addition to the damage decrease with an AT, but I’d say the 5-10% efficiency advantage outweighs that.

And I thought Dam-techs were the only ones confirmed to get SE growth after 30.

[SolomonGrundy]

Here's a thought: Imagine high level enemies where the debuffs would actually be required, even on the regular mobs. Remember PSO Ruins? Anyone here NOT use jellen/zalure on the Arlans, Merlans, and Del-D?
I think about a level 150 zoona or shagreese, or Jisharga hitting a damage-focused fT. bye bye!

An Arcotecher focused on debuffing would be a big help. Forces used to be about support, and PSU has pretty much ended that. AoI may revive it.

[Tra]

On 2007-06-15 11:58, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Here's a thought: Imagine high level enemies where the debuffs would actually be required, even on the regular mobs. Remember PSO Ruins? Anyone here NOT use jellen/zalure on the Arlans, Merlans, and Del-D?
I think about a level 150 zoona or shagreese, or Jisharga hitting a damage-focused fT. bye bye!

An Arcotecher focused on debuffing would be a big help. Forces used to be about support, and PSU has pretty much ended that. AoI may revive it.




Let me be fair with you Solomon. Forces are already support right now. They die easily, real easily. Just the exceptions being those that bothered to max everything and gather up the necessary armor don't. Those that are fragile can pull off any tech now and then, but most of the time, they're going to be needing to run around to avoid enemies just like melee do.

In that case, fTs that need to be constantly running around cannot deal damage. They hit hard, but they don't hit consistently. I know for a fact that a lot of people have the misconception of forces being powerful just because of videos (or them just looking at a diga, big number). Please don't. A regular fT damage is very low. An average fG doesn't need much effort to maximize their damage as the difference between shooting a gun and a tech is that you can't move when you cast a tech. Even with a shotgun, you're still able to recover twice as fast as any FO and move out of harm's way. You may see me spam rafoie on those lv100 king olgohmons while taking minimal barta damage... that doesn't happen everywhere. fFs have to swerve around every now and then, but most of their PAs incapacitate monsters through knockdown/knockup/blowback/etc so they're quite better off, their only problem is to aim their PAs to make sure it hits as many targets as possible. All I'm saying is, fT damage is low. Don't use my character's damage as the standard of a fT's damage... I have absolutely the best gear and PA list possible right now. Most you'll come across probably will only have 1 A-unit, and I guess lv30 in the more damaging techs, but definately not 44-50% of all armor types. They're all much better off being ATs.

As far as myself and those that are competant with skill and gear goes... don't get the wrong impression that fTs are meant for support. We're meant for teamwork, not support. There's a difference, Solomon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Certain methods makes incredibly sucessful with different types of parties and different types of missions, not just the buffs and resta that we can give.

[Umberger]

Pretty nice guide here...maybe you should add a link to your technic leveling guide for those people who don't have all of their technics maxed. =p

[Allison_W]

I'll avoid this business about AT this, AT that, and pose a different question:

So you've got lots of numbers for a newman fT. But will the numbers difference between a human fT and a newman fT really matter, or will they add up to a drop of piss in the bucket?

[Tra]

On 2007-06-15 20:17, Umberger wrote:
Pretty nice guide here...maybe you should add a link to your technic leveling guide for those people who don't have all of their technics maxed. =p


Alright


On 2007-06-15 20:44, Allison_W wrote:
I'll avoid this business about AT this, AT that, and pose a different question:

So you've got lots of numbers for a newman fT. But will the numbers difference between a human fT and a newman fT really matter, or will they add up to a drop of piss in the bucket?


It's fine if you want, just pretend you're a newman fT, except 20 levels lower.

80/10 human female fT = 1077 TP
60/10 newman female fT = 1096 TP

[Allison_W]

On 2007-06-15 21:01, Tra wrote:

On 2007-06-15 20:17, Umberger wrote:
Pretty nice guide here...maybe you should add a link to your technic leveling guide for those people who don't have all of their technics maxed. =p


Alright


On 2007-06-15 20:44, Allison_W wrote:
I'll avoid this business about AT this, AT that, and pose a different question:

So you've got lots of numbers for a newman fT. But will the numbers difference between a human fT and a newman fT really matter, or will they add up to a drop of piss in the bucket?


It's fine if you want, just pretend you're a newman fT, except 20 levels lower.

80/10 human female fT = 1077 TP
60/10 newman female fT = 1096 TP



Positively gross. No wonder newman fTs are populous as rats.

[Freshellent]

Hmm. Nice guide. Everyone's said that already so whatever.

Yeah but seriously,nice guide.

[Sekani]

On 2007-06-15 20:44, Allison_W wrote:
I'll avoid this business about AT this, AT that, and pose a different question:

So you've got lots of numbers for a newman fT. But will the numbers difference between a human fT and a newman fT really matter, or will they add up to a drop of piss in the bucket?

Using Cherry's numbers from the first post and similar equipment, it would equate to a damage difference of roughly 110 points before elemental bonuses/penalties on Lv30 Diga. If you don't have uber stuff, or use spells with less extreme modifiers, the difference is less noticeable.

[DrEngrish]

Very nice guide I must say. I dunno if I would have had the patience to calculate all of that stuff, but having it laid out like this makes it pretty easy to understand. Good stuff :3

[Tycho]

Doing calculations to support your opinion is great, but using a tl;dr number overload to cover up for one's bias and force one's bias onto others is not.

These damage calculations are lacking; nowhere you tried to explain why the numbers in your screenshots were actually different. You've ignored variable TP as well as the monsters' elemental stats. I'm on Sou with the 5 thing, since you're just changing static numbers to make up for any additional errors you've made in order to explain the difference in this particular case by saying the basic part of the formula being off.

As for the class comparison, you intend to compare Fortetecher to Fortegunner by using examples of DPS versus groups of mediocre mobs. Guess what: that's what Fortegunners were not meant for. Yes, indeed, FT is ideal for spreading damage over no more or less than four targets. The comparison with FF you're quick to drop, and you seem to like to think most FFs are far less optimized somehow.

On the weapon comparison, you initially take the stance that Wands generally out-perform Rods, on the conditino that MST is not factored in (nor elements for that matter). What you failed to mention is that this assumption actually pulls the 'facts' in favour of Wands, since only the amount of TP left after substracting the enemies' MST can really be said to count.

On the topic of the expansion, you're judging AT as to be out-performed by FT by comparing their nuking capabilities. This is, however, the primary job of FT, while for AT it's a shared second place (together with melee damage; both ATP and TP are equally mediocre compared to FF and FT respectively), while their indivual forte is buffing/debuffing, while keeping the party healthy and adding some damage of its own (adapting based on what type of damage the enemies do not have halfguard against). Your future DPS anticipations are based on assumptions about the elemental modifiers increasing even further -- this might sound credible, but you did not mention that with the recent beta ST realized that the elemental system is broken, and is looking into rebalancing things.

This wall of arbitrary numbers and your attitude distract people from staying critical of your factual bias.

[Hrith]

On 2007-06-14 03:26, Sounomi wrote:
So what took so long for others to mention the hidden elemental mods on techs? I realized that months agoSo did we. Do you even read the official forums?
New stuff is usually discussed there first, then on fan forums.


Anyway, awesome guide, Cherry, very nicely done and to the point.
Having created a Force very recently, I learned a few very useful things reading your post ;o

Guess I will use wands, now =P

[Tycho]

<_<

[Ryna]

This thread is being locked at the OP's request.