So what does AoI have for us Fortegunners...

[amtalx]

I keep hearing all these wonderful things about the new classes. Even the old cross-classes are getting some neat stuff. A few are getting 30 bullets, so they will now have access to my precious 3rd and 5th Xbow and Shotgun bullets respectively. Protransers are even crawling out from the bottom of the landfill to get S rank weapons. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif Now I know that fGs are getting Lvl 40 bullets and 20 skills...but what else? Are our stat modifiers being adjusted at all? Since no more Xbow or Shotgun bullets are being added, and SE5 is still a myth, it seems like were getting the shaft.

[RegulusHikari]

FGs get Shadoogs (is that even how it's spelled O_o;).

That's about it. >.>
Fortes are generally getting shafted come AoI.

[Arieta]

The forte classes, as of how they've commented so far, are getting stat bonuses and a bigger modifier then currently.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Ranged classes in general are already easy, why do they need to get huge bonuses?

[Jife_Jifremok]

Okay, so nothing particularly cool. Just higher numbers so things die faster. That's fine but I was hoping for something more noteworthy.

[KiteWolfwood]

Koltova Cannon isn't noteworthly?

[Rashiid]

Cannon is B. Rangers can even use it in Aol (since they get B launchers)

Shadoogs are mad-kool tho; so ill be satisfyed on BulletMaster =]

[Jife_Jifremok]

Not as noteworthy as, say...a sixth bullet from a shotgun, fourth bullet from a crossbow, laser cannons actually getting to multi-hit large enemies (this would be a huge one for boss battles), new gun types (other than Shadoog)...

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

You don't need all that crap.

All fG needs is PEW PEW.

[Rashiid]

we`d be too strong o.0


edit: (sp)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rashiid on 2007-06-18 21:06 ]</font>

[Arika]

well fG is too strong in psu already
see sophia vid, =)

[Kimil]

All the Forte classes are powerfull as it is... -_-

The class changes were really more for the Hybrids because they all were no where up to par with other classes >_>

[F-Gattaca]

I heard something about the Shadoogs and Madoogs improving the palettes. Anyone got an idea on if this is true and what, exactly, it means? Do we get an extra item/weapon palette or more space on our current ones?

Because honestly, that's all I could ever want out of being a FG in AoI.

[Rashiid]

On 2007-06-18 21:06, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
You don't need all that crap.

All fG needs is PEW PEW.



bastard`s got a point. lub mii Tshewwwwww!

[Uncle_bob]

On 2007-06-18 21:06, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
You don't need all that crap.

All fG needs is PEW PEW.



Problem is that everyone else is gonna have PEW PEW too. Figunners will have level 21+ crossbow bullets which won't make Fortegunners unique in that aspect anymore. Protranser + S-rank bow + level 30 bullets = lol. And there's no point in using shadoogs with Fortegunners when you can use a crossbow instead.

We'll just be like weak Figunners with fewer melee weapons. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Zorafim]

You get boosted stats, and higher elements. I think that'd be enough, if you love gunner now.

[Niered]

On 2007-06-18 21:41, Uncle_bob wrote:

On 2007-06-18 21:06, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
You don't need all that crap.

All fG needs is PEW PEW.



Problem is that everyone else is gonna have PEW PEW too. Figunners will have level 21+ crossbow bullets which won't make Fortegunners unique in that aspect anymore. Protranser + S-rank bow + level 30 bullets = lol. And there's no point in using shadoogs with Fortegunners when you can use a crossbow instead.

We'll just be like weak Figunners with fewer melee weapons. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif



Wow, I just got out of posting the newest PvP thread, and my point there still applies here.

You can make every theory in the world, you still dont know the final multipliers for class jobs. We could be even more over powered than we are now with those.

Plus, were getting level 40 bullets. Which even if they lack the SE level that SHOULD go with that, it still makes me happy.

[Realmz]

I was kinda hoping for some new guns in the end. But the plus side for me is that in the expansion i'll be able to drop my tenora Launcher for a GRM one http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif now if i could just change my shot gun...

i don't even know what the new mag things even do, anyone wanna illuminate my ignorance?

[SaiSpagS]

One of them acts as a off hand wand. The ranger one just fires lasers randomly at enemies within it's range.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Fortegunners can still inflict SE4 with their rifles, at which they get exclusive S rank access to. Rifles also have higher chance of inflicting SEs than longbows due to their higher fire rate, and only those 2 weapons can use SE4, so what else do you guys need? Your rangers, your job is Status Effects. Ok, that last phrase was a bad joke from a biased Hunter, but yeah, after all I'm hearing here, I think Rangers should if anything, stay untouched and even nerfed in AoI.

[PJ]

On 2007-06-18 21:13, Kimil wrote:
All the Forte classes are powerfull as it is... -_-

The class changes were really more for the Hybrids because they all were no where up to par with other classes >_>



Pretty much what I wanted to say, but already said.

Frankly, at this point, hybrids suck. Right now, Guntecher is like a weaker Fortegunner ("But you get wands too :C" I like my Resta being crappy as a human, too), Wartecher isn't much more interesting.

Well, Fighgunner doesn't suck, but that's because it feels like a Fortefighter with different weapons (Not better, just different).

[Hrith]

I find Fighgunner much better than Fortefighter in the current game: barely noticeable difference in ATP, DFP does nothing compared to elemental %, no traps or better ranged weapon =/


Anyway, unless we get a huge stat boost in AoI, Fortegunner is gonna be rather useless, Guntecher and Fighgunner are gonna be a lot better ;-;

[Arika]

Fortegunner now is the strongest job,
they don't need 50% weapon at all, but they can do pure 2200 damage/s (much more than fT, and way higher than fF with 44% weapon)
they can use all kind of trap !!
they can do SE lv 4 without trap, and do SE lv 3 very easy with xbow
they can dodge enemy attack very easy, no need for high % armor!!
they are best job to attack flying enemy!!

(in conclude : pure damage, dodging, trap, SE,= all best ,what else you need?)

[Retehi]

On 2007-06-19 02:24, Shiroryuu wrote:

I think Rangers should if anything, stay untouched and even nerfed in AoI.



Oh god no, no, NO.

[Sophia]

fortegunner can do this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yhmNUam5dE
and this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJkghf5oSnE
and much more xD

From what ive read, i think fortegunners will be just fine in AoI.

But really, its impossible to say until we know what the stats are at class level 20 and how good level 40 bullets are etc.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sophia on 2007-06-19 05:52 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Level 20 skills! You can properly use spear, saber, and dagger PA combos... tell me that's not a little exciting.

Seriously, too, suppose fG got access to some new kind of gun with a great ultimate PA and whatever. What bullets are you going to delete for all that? The existing set of guns easily fills the entire PA list already. Just getting all the skills for all your S ranks will do it.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-19 06:53, panzer_unit wrote:

Level 20 skills! You can properly use spear, saber, and dagger PA combos... tell me that's not a little exciting.



Its not exciting...if I wanted to use melee weapons I would have been a Fighgunner. I'm not gonna pull out a spear so I can give up my SE ability and do less damage than every other Fighter in the party. Saber an Dagger are OK options at best. Rangers excel at avoiding confrontation all together. Why would I want to get close so I can bust out 2 hits from a PA and potentially get my throat stepped on?

[panzer_unit]

LOL you can lead a gunner to new abilities, but you can't make him suck it up.

I'm looking forward to it, being able to pop some grenades on a large monster to tag a burn and get it started for the fighters, then walk in and poke like hell for 5000-damage combos while everyone else keeps it down, instead of continuing to drop grenades for a mere 600 each. Being able to clear crowds and stuff with RS is going to be great too, I'm not a big fan of mayalee prism outside of certain really limited applications.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-06-19 10:25 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-06-19 04:47, Hrith wrote:
I find Fighgunner much better than Fortefighter in the current game: barely noticeable difference in ATP, DFP does nothing compared to elemental %, no traps or better ranged weapon =/


the reason for this is that most of the S ranks have been figunner (crea double, twin ragnus, etc). Gudda Skella amd some of the claws are very recent developments.

Tough i think there should be a larger ATP/DFP gap between the 2 classes



Anyway, unless we get a huge stat boost in AoI, Fortegunner is gonna be rather useless, Guntecher and Fighgunner are gonna be a lot better ;-;

Guntecker *needed* to get better. Unless you played a newman, it was pretty much better to play a fortegunner.

Figunner is a little too good right now, and only getting better . It's the HUmar of PSO. Don't expect that to change too much.


@ general topic: Fortegunners are getting level 20 skills as well. I'm not sure if people realise just how good this makes them. They are still the pre-eminent class for applying SE4, and wonderful stats.

Shadoogs are 'neat' - I can totally see carrying the Stun shadoog opposite a 1 hand melee weapon.


side note: glad to see fT's not rule the roost at everything tech. They will still out perform with tech damage, but at least there are reasons to play other tech using classes now.

[Realmz]

do fG get the whip weapon? doesn't that thing also apply SEs?

[ljkkjlcm9]

the only classes that get whips are force classes. It's basically a force specific melee weapon, the strongest class that can use it is WT.

THE JACKEL

[chibiLegolas]

I still think ppl over look the pros and cons for a FoG compared to the GT in AoI.
FoG's have better access to traps. You may say big deal, but Shock, Silence, and Virus traps are really useful in tight situations compared to the other options GT gets. I know I'm missing those in the currect FB missions while I'm GT.

GT's HP and DEF are weak compared to FoG! You say a true gunner shouldn't be up front and get hit anyway. Well, not those who use crossbows, Maylee Fury/Prism, close range for heals/debuffs, etc. Point is, there are plenty gunners like myself who stay upfront in the fray with the hunters. And when I get hit as a GT, it hurts! And could easily get 1 shot killed by certain mobs. Even with 42% armor and being maxed at 80/10. (dam those spellcasters in FB!) Remember, aren't GT's the 2nd weakest class (HP + DEF wise) right now? I'm sure come AoI, those stats are gonna widen when you compare GT and FoG.

Umm... access to G launchers isn't good enough to set FoG apart from GT's and FiG's? And I wouldn't say PT's are treding on FoG's turf either. Their playstyle is totally different and one of their jobs is to be a temperory/partial ranger. NOT full ranger type.

Better stats, 11+ skills, elemental %/ata/atp increases from lvl 31+ bullets, and more S rank weapons should be good enough.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-06-19 11:40 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

GTs are pretty much right with the Fortetecher with Defense, though the Fortetecher tanks them when dealing with Techs. Even the HP difference often doesn't make up for the extra tech defense the fT gets in practice.

In overall defense, between the two, they rank at the bottom. They're supposed to use higher mobility weapons, often, because they need to dodge 24/7. The expansion will change a bit, GTs will be able to do emergency heals much much safer than before. Sure, stopping to cast a tech is scary in a high level battle. It's even scarier to have to be close to the dangerzone or in it, in order for you to get it done. I attribute several deaths due to situations where party support meant me being right in the thick of things in order to support and keep people alive. Because that's my job. Outside of the SE4 status applications I sometimes am relegated to use, between the other weapons and trap-laying, it never remains a long-range battle.

The General purpose long range weapon of the GT will remain the Twin Handguns (and may be further, in the expansion, as the GT will see better and better twin guns and Card access limitations will leave them behind). Of course, they also are 2nd place behind the Mechguns (also a GT S-rank) as the best monster-drawing weapon. Thus mobs still want to kill us first, for using em.

The level 30 Support spells are basically a sigh of relief. Yes percentages are better, though I'm not sure if it is any nicer than the mere fact that stopping to support doesn't mean that I'm in the middle of the wolfpack doing it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-06-19 12:17 ]</font>

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-19 10:23, panzer_unit wrote:
LOL you can lead a gunner to new abilities, but you can't make him suck it up.

I'm looking forward to it, being able to pop some grenades on a large monster to tag a burn and get it started for the fighters, then walk in and poke like hell for 5000-damage combos while everyone else keeps it down, instead of continuing to drop grenades for a mere 600 each. Being able to clear crowds and stuff with RS is going to be great too, I'm not a big fan of mayalee prism outside of certain really limited applications.



I think we need to agree to disagree. The problem is you seem to be bringing the PT point of view, and PTs make mediocre rangers. Protransers don't specialize in anything, so switching from guns to spears to whatever is fine for you. That's not really the case with Forte classes. We are good at one thing and thats pretty much it. Thats not stopping us from going other routes, but someone else will always be able to do it better. Its by design. I have a decent spear and Dus Daggas. Not a bad PA, but the damage I do with my Xbow or double-shotting with my Shotgun dwarfs my spear damage. I can rack up 5000 damage with my Shotgun in less than two shots and something tells me Lvl 20 skills aren't going to turn me into a melee god.


I'm guessing you are spreading SEs with a Grenade Launcher because you are out of traps? Grenade Launchers are one of the worst SE spreaders aside from Machineguns. That's what Xbows are for.

Clearing crowds with RS? Grenade Launchers/Mayalee Prism are much better suited for moving around crowds. Launching 2 enemies at a time with RS is not crowd control when you're working with a mob of 8-10, A single shot from a Laser Cannon putting them all in a corner is.

[SolomonGrundy]

Are we talking soloing, or in a party?

Solo-ing GTs have pretty good defence, unless the other solo-ist is going through 3000 meseta of buff items per run.

high-ish MST+retier (higher than hunters, and PTs)
moderate DFP (gunner)+deband
moderate EVP +zodial

and while other classes may stick to weapons with high DPS, when I go GT, I usually stick with weappns that provide safety in thier SEs.

Electric crossbow
silence twin handguns
light rifle (or killer shot)

if you can get a hold of a giga-bullet save, level maylee fury. it really helps keep a goldova single target down.

[Akaimizu]

I use the Electric Crossbow quite a bit.
Silence, I tend to use Confuse instead, but it does the trick when it works. Of course, more and more of the great Tech casters, now, are bullet immune shielded/buffed ones. Fortunately the GT has Mayalee Prism, for often enough, that's their only defense when a pack of them comes (we pray that it doesn't miss or that we can throw a freeze G-trap, in hopes they run into it, allowing an escape). But for a one on one, a GT never even needs the machinegun ult. Mono-a-mono is a big comfort zone, anyway.

This isn't a post to say how bad Guntechers have it, but to show that they have a lot of things people don't count when they think things are suddenly overpowered for them. It's a great and rewarding class, but it took a lot of effort to figure what makes em tick, and how things finally start to pay off in the endgame (and after hundreds of hours of getting the skills they need). There's a darn good reason lower-skill players never stick with the class (or protranser) and why there's so few that stick it out, currently. As for the expansion: It'll definitely feel easy for those of us who played them a lot, but on the other hand, it'll allow players of a bit lesser skill to actually play them. Which is something quite a few of the other classes have. Not sure I'd like to see their reputation ruined that way, but I have a feeling the difference between an existing GT, that stuck it out (made do with what we had), and the new sloppy GTs we'll probably get in the expansion, will be like night and day. My guess is, the skill separation, between them, is going to be immense.

The same might be true for Protransers, if their new abilities cause the same lack of punishment for sloppy play.

Fortegunners still get all the good chunky weapons, yet they also get awesome trap access (some of your traps people like GTs don't have, are pretty crucial lifesavers, that you fortunately have access to, which will always land). Strong weapons that also blow-away. I couldn't see myself as anything else, for the heavy weapon specialist. Resta access would make you extreme, but then again, Offline kind of proves that, and we know how broken those characters are. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-06-19 18:59 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-19 14:00, amtalx wrote:
I think we need to agree to disagree. The problem is you seem to be bringing the PT point of view, and PTs make mediocre rangers.
...
I'm guessing you are spreading SEs with a Grenade Launcher because you are out of traps? Grenade Launchers are one of the worst SE spreaders aside from Machineguns. That's what Xbows are for.

Clearing crowds with RS? Grenade Launchers/Mayalee Prism are much better suited for moving around crowds.

My PT switches to Fortegunner all the time whenever it's better or equally good and less expensive on consumables. I do fine with that job and have fun, but I know where the limitations are too because I'm not used to having them. Fortegunners don't need and didn't get anything serious in the way of improvement for what they already do well, instead they're getting a big boost for all the worst-case situations.

Grenades and Mayalee blow stuff away, sure. But they're specialized tools with specific purposes.

Let's put things in perspective: if grenades could point-blank groups of monsters or Mayalee Prism had SE3 in the element of your choice, and both cost like HALF what they do... then they'd be about as good for general offense/defense as having high-level handgun and saber skills.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-06-20 07:39, panzer_unit wrote:


My PT switches to Fortegunner all the time whenever it's better or equally good and less expensive on consumables. I do fine with that job and have fun, but I know where the limitations are too because I'm not used to having them. Fortegunners don't need and didn't get anything serious in the way of improvement for what they already do well, instead they're getting a big boost for all the worst-case situations.

Grenades and Mayalee blow stuff away, sure. But they're specialized tools with specific purposes.

Let's put things in perspective: if grenades could point-blank groups of monsters or Mayalee Prism had SE3 in the element of your choice, and both cost like HALF what they do... then they'd be about as good for general offense/defense as having high-level handgun and saber skills.



oh god, if only GL could point blank!! Maylee Prism has SE-infinite? If it hits, it always works, right?. I agree the PP cost could be lower though. :-/ wy do you thing giga bullet save is in such high demand.

By the way, I think fewer people play GTs because it's annoying to recast buffs every 2 minutes. The resta is pretty hand and DoTs help make the damage gap less material.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

GT already beats fG, and the AoI changes only make this worse (GT = RAmarl yarly). Only adavantages fG has over GT are....uh....Grenades (which aren't all that useful in general situations) and some traps (and AoI Protranser puts other trap users to shame, and is almost as broken as AoI GT).

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-20 11:44, SolomonGrundy wrote:
oh god, if only GL could point blank!! Maylee Prism has SE-infinite? If it hits, it always works, right?. I agree the PP cost could be lower though. :-/ wy do you thing giga bullet save is in such high demand.


Saber / dagger / claw PAs have the same SE as Mayalee Prism and you _also_ get a crossbow / handgun in the other hand for busting out some nasty statuses between PA moves. I roll like that as a PT all the time and the awesomeness of it makes everything else the class can do look pretty situational.

Honestly the only reason I've got mayalee is the instant switch from ice to crowd control when I'm using a laser anyway. That rocks pretty hard.

EDIT: don't knock grenades, fFuzzy. They own really hard.

Between AOI PT and AOI Fortegunner... fG advantages are:
* basic traps are still good, and dirt cheap now
* equally good 1h melee combos
* mechguns & crossbows to go with the 1h melee
* slight ATP edge
* rifles for SE4 and more importantly Killer Shot
* built-in bullet save and PP regen saves a ton of photon charges when gunning heavily (KS & high-level Grenades especially)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-06-20 12:13 ]</font>

[Omnishot]

On 2007-06-20 11:44, SolomonGrundy wrote:


oh god, if only GL could point blank!! Maylee Prism has SE-infinite? If it hits, it always works, right?. I agree the PP cost could be lower though. :-/ wy do you thing giga bullet save is in such high demand.

By the way, I think fewer people play GTs because it's annoying to recast buffs every 2 minutes. The resta is pretty hand and DoTs help make the damage gap less material.



If GL could point blank we would be solo gods.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-06-20 12:06, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
GT already beats fG, and the AoI changes only make this worse (GT = RAmarl yarly). Only adavantages fG has over GT are....uh....Grenades (which aren't all that useful in general situations) and some traps (and AoI Protranser puts other trap users to shame, and is almost as broken as AoI GT).



does it hurt being this wrong, or are you used to it by now? Maybe in AoI they will be 'broken' but for now they are pretty tame.

PT needed improvement, it is currrently an underpowered class, and in an era of S-ranks (in a game where looks>>stats), few people want to be one.

@omnishot: yes....mmmm...I can taste my diefication already.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-06-20 13:22 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-20 13:20, SolomonGrundy wrote:
PT needed improvement, it is currrently an underpowered class
lol? ololololololol! lololo lol lol lololololol lol:
* lol lol
* lol
* lolol

lol lolololol lolol lolololololol lol lolllllllll lol lol lol lolol. lol lololol? lol 'lololol.

[Golto]

If anything Fortegunners should get srank twin handguns and machineguns in AOI but then all the little GTs will cry. Come on FtG should be the master of any gun that doesn't have anything to do with forces.

I'm not too enthused about lvl 31+ bullets because most if not all do not gain se lvl or more shots so they can't justify the higher pp cost.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-20 12:06, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
GT already beats fG, and the AoI changes only make this worse (GT = RAmarl yarly). Only adavantages fG has over GT are....uh....Grenades (which aren't all that useful in general situations) and some traps (and AoI Protranser puts other trap users to shame, and is almost as broken as AoI GT).



Well that's a sill thing to say. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif The most distinct advantage that fG has over GT is a fG Will ALWAYS outdamage a GT. If being a ranged DPS god is your thing that's pretty important. However, if you want versatility, GT is the better choice.

[Mwabwetumba]

Well, I really do think that the ForteGunner S-ranks outclasses the GunTecher ones when it comes to flashiness and looks. Mwab approves of flashy guns http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Akaimizu]

To tell the truth, the main thing I would expect to see for level 31+ bullets, are larger Elemental damage percentages, and Acc boosts. Maybe they will be significant enough to show some nice damage extra damage numbers. I felt getting the Twin Handgun bullets to 30 actually worth it even just on the merit that they really do have some nice elemental punch.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-06-20 13:38, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-06-20 13:20, SolomonGrundy wrote:
PT needed improvement, it is currrently an underpowered class
lol? ololololololol! lololo lol lol lololololol lol:
* lol lol
* lol
* lolol

lol lolololol lolol lolololololol lol lolllllllll lol lol lol lolol. lol lololol? lol 'lololol.



lower ATP than a guntecker, or wartecher. Lowest ATA of any of the gunner classes, Lower DFP than any of the melee classes. Lower EVP than any of the gunner classes. Poor MST.

reasonable weapon selection, with an emphasis on slower weapons. no pp reduction. Increased trap power, but same trap use as a fortegunner.

Party friendly? yes. well powered? Surely you jest. And note you are playing the BEST race/class combo for PT right now, on a console where money is less of a factor and STILL this job has issues.

Click the easy button and be a fortegunner, then let me know. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some PT, but can call a spade a spade.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-06-20 15:22 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-20 15:00, SolomonGrundy wrote:
lower ATP than a guntecker, or wartecher. Lowest ATA of any of the gunner classes, Lower DFP than any of the melee classes. Lower EVP than any of the gunner classes. Poor MST.

reasonable weapon selection, with an emphasis on slower weapons. no pp reduction. Increased trap power, but same trap use as a fortegunner.

Party friendly? yes. well powered? Surely you jest. And note you are playing the BEST race/class combo for PT right now, on a console where money is less of a factor and STILL this job has issues.

Click the easy button and be a fortegunner, then let me know. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some PT, but can call a spade a spade.


Quick, name another class that can inflict SE3 burn and follow up with a 1300-ATP axe? They're retardedly damaging for a single character when they go all-out. Suppose I take it easy and just use the axe, I've still got more ATP than anyone but a Fortefighter using an axe or maybe a caliburn.

ATA? Other gunners do it better, but what I've got is enough... especially with access to Ulteri, Gudda Gant, and EVP debuffs on shotgun.

Defense stats, Protransers are well suited for taking on large monsters. High HP for soaking hits (remember how DFP is useless?) and good EVP + high-end Tenora armor for a decent chance of blocking some of those big hits... again plus ATA debuff from shotgun if I need it.

Traps, no PT's aren't anything special... and in fact we NEED traps far less than a Fortegunner with no access to good melee weapons or good self-defense PA's. In a team I carry just Damage G (it's a waste of money, but a hilarious one) and Burn G. Virus stops other people from causing burn, which is bad. Solo, Virus and Virus G. Very economical for the damage done.

Why do people keep thinking I don't play Fortegunner? I do. Protranser gets access to everything that makes life easy for Fortegunner (high SE, long range, grenades, etc) with better self defense and damage output thanks to being a strong melee fighter as well.

[Realmz]

On 2007-06-20 13:59, Golto wrote:
If anything Fortegunners should get srank twin handguns and machineguns in AOI but then all the little GTs will cry. Come on FtG should be the master of any gun that doesn't have anything to do with forces.

I'm not too enthused about lvl 31+ bullets because most if not all do not gain se lvl or more shots so they can't justify the higher pp cost.



well with other PA's when the move didn't gain a hit, the stats of it got a much bigger boost, i'm hoping this is what will happen with all the bullets.

i really need a bullet save....

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-21 07:48, panzer_unit wrote:

Why do people keep thinking I don't play Fortegunner? I do. Protranser gets access to everything that makes life easy for Fortegunner (high SE, long range, grenades, etc) with better self defense and damage output thanks to being a strong melee fighter as well.



Protransers are not good Fortegunners. Protransers are good because they can do a little bit of everything. The problem with being able to do everything is they aren't really GREAT at anything. Protransers are the epitome of "a jack of all trades and a master of none." That's not a bad thing, but stop trying to outclass, or even match, the ranged strength of a Fortegunner. When it comes to guns, a Fortegunner will always be superior in damage AND the ability to inflict SEs. A Protranser's strength comes from being able to mix a somewhat distilled ranger ability with that of a hunter.

All the classes have their place in this game...there's no need to try and do other classes jobs for them.

[akratic]

On 2007-06-21 08:14, amtalx wrote:

On 2007-06-21 07:48, panzer_unit wrote:

Why do people keep thinking I don't play Fortegunner? I do. Protranser gets access to everything that makes life easy for Fortegunner (high SE, long range, grenades, etc) with better self defense and damage output thanks to being a strong melee fighter as well.



Protransers are not good Fortegunners. Protransers are good because they can do a little bit of everything. The problem with being able to do everything is they aren't really GREAT at anything. Protransers are the epitome of "a jack of all trades and a master of none." That's not a bad thing, but stop trying to outclass, or even match, the ranged strength of a Fortegunner. When it comes to guns, a Fortegunner will always be superior in damage AND the ability to inflict SEs. A Protranser's strength comes from being able to mix a somewhat distilled ranger ability with that of a hunter.

All the classes have their place in this game...there's no need to try and do other classes jobs for them.

You are good at misunderstanding.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-21 08:19, akratic wrote:

You are good at misunderstanding.



Explanation?

[ShineOnline]

Slightly off topic... I've searched a number of AoI threads trying to find out if level 31+ xbows, handguns, or 'nades follow their SE progression and get SE4?
I know that they didn't create a new SE5 for rifles and bows, but since SE4 exists already....

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-21 09:51, amtalx wrote:
Explanation?

I think he picked up that I actually change my character's class to Fortegunner pretty frequently. It sounds like you think I just go out there as a Protranser and do nothing but shoot grenades / shotgun / laser / handgun and say I'm a Forte. That would be a little ineffictive and hideously expensive on photon charges.

As a Protranser of course I do use those weapons... when it will either kill things fastest or getting in and fighting would cause an unreasonable amount of damage. It's less effective than a Forte would be, but I try and make up for that in the rest of the mission by using my melee skills in the situations that favor them.

[Hrith]

Why do people keep thinking I don't play Fortegunner? I do. Protranser gets access to everything that makes life easy for Fortegunner (high SE, long range, grenades, etc) with better self defense and damage output thanks to being a strong melee fighter as well.omg... XD
rofl http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Fortefighter does not have a higher damage output than Fortegunner unless they only use 50% weapons of the proper element for every monster, let alone the uber weak Protranser, get a clue http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


ATP:
-Fortegunner 108%
-Protranser 80%

DFP:
-Fortegunner 80%
-Protranser 80%

ATA:
-Fortegunner 200%
-Protranser 100%

Not to mention the class which gets a racial bonus for FG is casts, for PT it's humans, heh.

How is PT better at "self-defense" (what does that even mean?) with the same DFP modifier?
The melee weapons PT can use means he'll have to face melee damage with low DFP.
DFP in itself does not mean much, but a FG is a lot less likely to get hit judging from the fact that they use ranged weapons.

There's nothing "strong" about Protranser.

[SolomonGrundy]

let me apologize: this is not a thread about PTs being great, or not being great. It's about ForetGunners. I concede that PT is a serviceable job. I do not concede that it could not use a boost. Getting access to S ranks is great for a number of reasons, but the biggest one is that for PSO-type games, the rares LOOK cool.

Going back to fortegunner, I'm not sure if people noticed the 12% increase in ATP that fG's got, or (for those human/newman fGs) the 16% increase in MST. This, in addition to the increase in skills (and level 40 bullets), is reason enough to be pleased with the AoI.

I suspect shadoogs are pretty underated. Time will tell.

EDIT: WTs are the generalists, not ProTransers. I don't know wtf to describe PTs as. =0



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-06-21 11:15 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-21 10:45, Hrith wrote:
Fortefighter does not have a higher damage output than Fortegunner unless they only use 50% weapons of the proper element for every monster, let alone the uber weak Protranser, get a clue http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

ATP:
-Fortegunner 108%
-Protranser 80%
...
How is PT better at "self-defense" (what does that even mean?) with the same DFP modifier?
The melee weapons PT can use means he'll have to face melee damage with low DFP.
DFP in itself does not mean much, but a FG is a lot less likely to get hit judging from the fact that they use ranged weapons.


Ok let's compare damage here. A fortegunner does what... 550x4 per shot with thunder cannon or gur missal, if he's got the right element and a nicely lined up bunch of targets like some of those stupid S vanda. My PT's Anga Redda hits are something like that, 2 hits x 2 targets x ~550... of course it comes up much more frequently, since it's easier to round up the victims for it. There are also a lot more bullet-resistant enemies than melee. As a Fortefighter it kicks up to like 750. That's not with an awesome axe or anything either, 9* and 20% maybe.

Self defense? This is an open and shut case. Protranser does EVERYTHING Fortegunner can do, and then some. Grenades, Mayalee Prism, shooting SE3 on the run... plus way more effective melee PA's so you can take out twice as many monsters and take them out harder.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-21 10:33, panzer_unit wrote:

I think he picked up that I actually change my character's class to Fortegunner pretty frequently. It sounds like you think I just go out there as a Protranser and do nothing but shoot grenades / shotgun / laser / handgun and say I'm a Forte. That would be a little ineffictive and hideously expensive on photon charges.



Apologies. I didn't really make that clear. My issue was more with your point that PTs have all the weapons that make Fortegunners comfortable.




As a Protranser of course I do use those weapons... when it will either kill things fastest or getting in and fighting would cause an unreasonable amount of damage. It's less effective than a Forte would be, but I try and make up for that in the rest of the mission by using my melee skills in the situations that favor them.



OK. Now we're on the same page. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[panzer_unit]

I think protranser is pretty relevant to Fortegunner in AOI; the only 2 changes the class is getting are lv20 melee skills and shadoogs.

I don't know about shadoogs much at all. I don't think they even have a PA to link, they just sit on your shoulder shooting at stuff. I don't know why Fortegunner got them, just so they weren't left out of all the new statuses they cause probably.

I do know that having 2-move Rising Strike combos and SE3 handgun bullets is hot Hot HOT for generally running around and killing stuff, and it would be nice if people who don't know about it first hand would take my word on it or be like "well, I'll try it when it comes out" instead of STFU THAT CLASS YOU SOMETIMES PLAY IS LAME AND SONIC TEAM IS KILLING FORTEGUNNERS IN AOI.

[Hrith]

On 2007-06-21 11:33, panzer_unit wrote:
Ok let's compare damage here. A fortegunner does what... 550x4 per shot with thunder cannon or gur missal, if he's got the right element and a nicely lined up bunch of targets like some of those stupid S vanda. My PT's Anga Redda hits are something like that, 2 hits x 2 targets x ~550... of course it comes up much more frequently, since it's easier to round up the victims for it. There are also a lot more bullet-resistant enemies than melee. As a Fortefighter it kicks up to like 750. That's not with an awesome axe or anything either, 9* and 20% maybe.

Self defense? This is an open and shut case. Protranser does EVERYTHING Fortegunner can do, and then some. Grenades, Mayalee Prism, shooting SE3 on the run... plus way more effective melee PA's so you can take out twice as many monsters and take them out harder.Ok, now I know that you've never played a Fortegunner past Lv1, thanks for ridiculing yourself.

Protranser has about 10% the usefulness and efficiency of a Fortegunner, at best.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-06-21 11:33, panzer_unit wrote:

Ok let's compare damage here. A fortegunner does what... 550x4 per shot with thunder cannon or gur missal, if he's got the right element and a nicely lined up bunch of targets like some of those stupid S vanda. My PT's Anga Redda hits are something like that, 2 hits x 2 targets x ~550... of course it comes up much more frequently, since it's easier to round up the victims for it. There are also a lot more bullet-resistant enemies than melee. As a Fortefighter it kicks up to like 750. That's not with an awesome axe or anything either, 9* and 20% maybe.



That's ignorant. Vanda's back up. vanda's shoot damfoie. On s rank missions vandas turn so it is harder to escape. Your axe/GL will run out of PP as a PT before a laser cannon & grenade launcher will as fG. Laser cannons, like barta, also do not have a target limit. In VoC you can hit 5 vandas.

Better yet, I can grind my laser cannon because if it breaks, I can synth an identical one. Have fun with that axe.

Can we please talk about AoI?

[Soukosa]

PT is not an FG replacement nor is it an FF replacement. It's entirely different from those and can't be compared to either one. It's like comparing apples to oranges, as the saying goes. But I get the impression that most people here haven't fulled experienced most of the classes they're discussing. What things look like on paper is not always how they play. You can't just look at the stats, weapons, etc and judge how that class will be.


On 2007-06-21 10:31, ShineOnline wrote:
Slightly off topic... I've searched a number of AoI threads trying to find out if level 31+ xbows, handguns, or 'nades follow their SE progression and get SE4?
I know that they didn't create a new SE5 for rifles and bows, but since SE4 exists already....

I seriously doubt that any weapons outside of rifles and longbows will ever reach SE4.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-21 11:33, panzer_unit wrote:

... Protranser does EVERYTHING Fortegunner can do, and then some. Grenades, Mayalee Prism, shooting SE3 on the run... plus way more effective melee PA's so you can take out twice as many monsters and take them out harder.



Dammit!...just when I was starting to agree with you. You think that Grenade Launchers, Mayalee Prism and plinking away with a pistol is all Fortegunners have to offer? That is a gross miscalculation of a Fortegunner's potential. PTs don't have access to several of the most powerful tools in a Fortegunner's palette. Xbows are hands down the best combination of sheer damage potential and SE power, and Rifles are the best weapon in the game for landing high Lvl SEs on a single target. Machinguns, while not exactly a fG's bread an butter IMO, are unparalleled in mid-range DPS. If PTs could do everything a fG could do...they would be fGs. End of story.

[Pillan]

On 2007-06-21 12:36, Sounomi wrote:
PT is not an FG replacement nor is it an FF replacement. It's entirely different from those and can't be compared to either one. It's like comparing apples to oranges, as the saying goes. But I get the impression that most people here haven't fulled experienced most of the classes they're discussing. What things look like on paper is not always how they play. You can't just look at the stats, weapons, etc and judge how that class will be.


Though it is hard to make an overall comparison of apples to oranges, it’s easy to compare a single factor from the two. For instance, apples are clearly sweeter and oranges have more citrus flavor. Besides, comparing PT to fF or fG is more like comparing an apple or orange to a genetic cross between an apple and orange fortified with extra vitamin C (traps).

Now, if you’re looking at survivability, an fG that can dodge decently will easily thrive more than an axe-spamming PT. 100 extra HP won’t really change that. If you’re comparing damage, an axe or spear wielding PT will be able to outperform fG if they get those 2-3 targets in range just because of the way ST designed melee PAs (high and fast damage to multiple targets as opposed to high or fast damage to any number of targets). Of course that varies if you’re fighting enemies where melee has a disadvantage to ranged damage, but it’s a lot simpler to look at the general case. The bigger question is how often do you get those 3 targets in range?

You could do a similar analysis comparing it to fF and you’ll see about the same thing. It falls short compared to both (which is obviously necessary for balancing purposes), but it’s not exactly horrible (10% of an fG) either.


On 2007-06-21 12:36, Sounomi wrote:

On 2007-06-21 10:31, ShineOnline wrote:
Slightly off topic... I've searched a number of AoI threads trying to find out if level 31+ xbows, handguns, or 'nades follow their SE progression and get SE4?
I know that they didn't create a new SE5 for rifles and bows, but since SE4 exists already....

I seriously doubt that any weapons outside of rifles and longbows will ever reach SE4.


Only thing confirmed to get SE growth after 31 is dam-techs, to my knowledge. And the fact that they get effect 4 coupled with the fact that buffs and debuffs are confirmed to go to effect 5 leads me to expect rifles and bows to jump to SE 5 by 41. It looks like we’ll get no SE growth from 31-40 (which is VERY annoying to the entire gunner population), but I’m willing to bet things will grow after that.


But, yeah, if you think fG got shafted in AoI, look at fT and fF. fT doesn’t have any relative change compared to the other classes and fF’s 12% ATP boost is shafted due to the fact that EVERY class besides fT also gains it. The only classes that gained huge changes were the 3 that needed it and FG just because ST loves HUmars.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-21 12:46, amtalx wrote:
Dammit!...just when I was starting to agree with you. You think that Grenade Launchers, Mayalee Prism and plinking away with a pistol is all Fortegunners have to offer?

In terms of dealing with a bunch of monsters that are chasing me around, I'd vote for knockdown attacks (lots of monsters can outrun a character) or SE3 freeze/shock while backing away (pretty reliable, but you can run out of room against a lot of monsters). What exactly is wrong with that?

Speaking of running from monsters: can you run full-tilt while a shadoog attacks? Actually I dunno what help that would be, unless it can fire backwards too. Otherwise you'd have to strafe.

[amtalx]

I agree that AoI will help the cross-classes the most. However, the on topic comments have made me feel a bit better about the treatment fGs are getting (I'm probably the worst off-topic offender of all of us haha.) As much as I hate to see the fG advantage diminish, it will make the classes more rounded and hopefully make the game a little more fun and challenging.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-21 12:34, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Can we please talk about AoI?

Can I point out that you entirely ignored a more-recent post entirely about Fortegunners in AOI, in order to quote a response to Hrith's stupid flamebait, and threw in some of your own for good measure?

For reference's sake: the S vandas were just for the laser guy because they LOVE to bunch up, you can find a spot where they throw rocks over your head, and are basically the perfect suckers for max laser damage. I said 4 targets - even as one of the few supporters of regular laser attacks - that's the most you can realistically expect to tag in a shot, and also the number where a laser really outperforms a shotgun or crossbow. I don't even get 4 vanda lined up reliably and 5's a real challenge just 'cause they bump around and stuff.

The axe example could come from any situation where there are 2 targets present. Let's call 'em volfu or go-varha.

[Hrith]

"Stupid flamebait" is enough to prove you wrong, though.

You factored in about 3% of what a Fortegunner can achieve.

-Dus Daggas has a better DPS than Anga Redda.
-Anga Redda is incredibly easy to cancel.
-If your Anga Redda deals the same damage as my Plasma Prism, then my DPS is much higher, because of firing rate versus attack speed, duh, you did not even factor in that in your posts, which totally ruins your credibility, to begin with
-Fortegunner with shotguns or crossbows has twice the DPS of Protranser using any melee weapon, machinegun is even higher.
-Actually, the weapon with the highest DPS from the Protranser palette is the shotgun, and Fortegunners can use it with 28% more ATP and 100% more ATA... lol
-Protranser is so weak, using laser cannons at all is a waste of time.
-Protranser cannot use twin handguns, machineguns, crossbows and rifles, all of which are excellent weapons.

I could keep going like that...
Protranser doesn't have half the damage output of a Fortegunner, you really know nothing about this game, you're probably never been a Fortegunner, let alone try out their PAs at Lv30 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

It doesn't matter if there is one monster, two, three or ten, Fortegunner will always have over twice the DPS of Protransers.

[SolomonGrundy]

@panzer: yes, you can point out that I got caught up in the off topic posts. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


But, yeah, if you think fG got shafted in AoI, look at fT and fF. fT doesn’t have any relative change compared to the other classes and fF’s 12% ATP boost is shafted due to the fact that EVERY class besides fT also gains it. The only classes that gained huge changes were the 3 that needed it and FG just because ST loves HUmars

The bolded part could not be more incorrect. fT's got level 40 attack techs. This is unique in that they are the ONLY job to get them. they are also still the ONLY expert job that allows the use of rods, s rank or otherwise.
The shaft? Hardly.


back on topic, sorta: let's talk about volfu, or go-varha, for a second. fG's strategy for volfu is straight forwards: DoT with Fire/Virus crossbow, then switch to your earth weapon of choice. No need to crontol them as they are slow, and thier attack pattern is dodgeable jump.

Comparatively, since we are on the subject, a PT could also virus the volfu with a shotgun, or grendaes, or even a pistol (or add fire with grenades), but I think we would all agree that the rate of fire, and 3 shots of a crossbow is a winner.

The weapon you switch to, if you do, we could argue all day. Volfu are not excaty challening, as 25% lighting armor is enoug to protect either fG or PT from getting too beat up.


Go-varha, on the other hand, are fast, and hit hard. tey take more skill. fGs are playing a dodge game, or using Shock crossbow, or packing a saber and using rising strike. PTs are probably using rising strike or Anga Durega (a fortefighter might just stand in and go mano a mano with knuckles, but that's not a PT option, really)

So the question is, Hrith, and Panzer, is PTs low ATP, but L30 juggling PAs better than fG's dodge and/or level 10 PAs?

and to wit: come AoI when fGs get level 20 skills, won't tising stike be even MORE of an option for fGs?

[Pillan]

On 2007-06-21 15:05, SolomonGrundy wrote:

But, yeah, if you think fG got shafted in AoI, look at fT and fF. fT doesn’t have any relative change compared to the other classes and fF’s 12% ATP boost is shafted due to the fact that EVERY class besides fT also gains it. The only classes that gained huge changes were the 3 that needed it and FG just because ST loves HUmars

The bolded part could not be more incorrect. fT's got level 40 attack techs. This is unique in that they are the ONLY job to get them. they are also still the ONLY expert job that allows the use of rods, s rank or otherwise.
The shaft? Hardly.


I said relative for a reason. Its attack techniques are still 20 levels higher than GT and 10 levels higher than WT. Every class gets +10 in their specialty and a secondary type, so I wouldn’t really call that a change specific to fT. Aside from the dam-series, it’s just extra power and a bit more range, which is exactly what everyone else gets (well, hunters don’t gain range, obviously).

But, yes, you could say exclusive use of rods and their current stats are more than reason enough not to give them more than the +10s that everyone else gains.

[Hrith]

On 2007-06-21 15:05, SolomonGrundy wrote:
So the question is, Hrith, and Panzer, is PTs low ATP, but L30 juggling PAs better than fG's dodge and/or level 10 PAs?PT are weak, very, very, very weak, no matter what they use, no matter what PA and what level that PA is.
In the best situation, Protranser has half the damage output of Fortegunner, that's all there is to it.

I don't know how it will be in AoI, but I won't care about that until AoI comes out.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-06-22 06:07 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-21 15:05, SolomonGrundy wrote:
So the question is, Hrith, and Panzer, is PTs low ATP, but L30 juggling PAs better than fG's dodge and/or level 10 PAs?

and to wit: come AoI when fGs get level 20 skills, won't tising stike be even MORE of an option for fGs?

What do you mean by dodge... EVP? Both characters are equally mobile.

Between SE and PA's to keep melee attackers off of me, I prefer PA's.
* works on leaders
* rapid multi-target moves, deal with crowds very quickly
* can be linked to any element so no having to choose between element penalties or second-best effects
* I'm safe enough to use Burn as my gun SE

In AoI the ATP difference between PT and fG is mostly going away (110 vs 120 percent) ... the two classes should play very similarly for gun-and-melee combat along with FG, aF, aT. Level 20+ melee and 30+ bullets for all, I think. Which is good because high-level SE's and one-handed PA combos are really good together.

[Sophia]

theres really no competition between a fortegunners ranged side and a protransers ranged side.. fortegunner just has so many more good options. crossbows, mechs etc. a protranser can never even come close to the damage a fortegunner can do with ranged weapons.

[HFlowen]

Apples&Oranges

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-22 06:05, Hrith wrote:
In the best situation, Protranser has half the damage output of Fortegunner, that's all there is to it.


Math or it didn't happen.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-22 08:02, panzer_unit wrote:

What do you mean by dodge... EVP? Both characters are equally mobile.



I think he means mobility weapons like Machineguns and Xbows, which PTs don't have.




In AoI the ATP difference between PT and fG is mostly going away (110 vs 120 percent) ... the two classes should play very similarly for gun-and-melee combat along with FG, aF, aT. Level 20+ melee and 30+ bullets for all, I think. Which is good because high-level SE's and one-handed PA combos are really good together.



The 30% ATP boost PTs are getting will help a great deal with their lackluster damage. But these are stats at Lvl 10. Classes are going to 30 in AoI. We don't know what will happen there, but its unlikely the gap won't widen by a few percent.

[panzer_unit]

[quote]On 2007-06-22 09:10, amtalx wrote:
I think he means mobility weapons like Machineguns and Xbows, which PTs don't have.
[quote]

They've got handguns, which are equally mobile... being worse than xbow or mg for DPS doesn't make them entirely irrelevant. (... no wait they ARE that bad! Especially Storm. Sell it to me for cheap, and the armor too if you get it)

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-22 09:25, panzer_unit wrote:

They've got handguns, which are equally mobile... being worse than xbow or mg for DPS doesn't make them entirely irrelevant. (... no wait they ARE that bad! Especially Storm. Sell it to me for cheap, and the armor too if you get it)



Handguns aren't really a substitute though...every class in the game can use handguns. The advantage to fG is that they have mobility and don't loose any of their damage potential. Yes, you get SE3 with Handguns, but Xbows do it faster and better.

If I get a hold of a Storm I will be sure to sell it to you for a reasonable price. I can use the money to fund my Cugo Mamba +10 fund. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Hrith]

Protranser cannot use Storm Line.

[Sophia]

yeah, its fortegunner onry ;3

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-06-22 16:28, Hrith wrote:
Protranser cannot use Storm Line.


My Protranser character spends quite a bit of time as a Fortegunner. I've said it a couple times in this thread AND it's in my damned message sig. In a final act of desperation I'm gonna type it in braille.



.. . . . . .. . .. .. . . ..
. . .. .. . .. . . . .. ..
. . . .. . . .


I use handguns as a Fortegunner 'cause those skills carry over to fF and PT when xbow and mg don't.

[amtalx]

On 2007-06-22 17:29, panzer_unit wrote:

I use handguns as a Fortegunner 'cause those skills carry over to fF and PT when xbow and mg don't.



Sloppy play.

[Niloklives]

Sadly it's the only way to do it when multiclassing like that.

and Hrith: RATE OF FIRE IS FACTORED INTO DPS!! the cool downtime between shots or hits or whatever is where those "per second"s are coming from. if I have a weapon that hits 4 times total for 500 damage each in 2 seconds but has a warmup and cooldown time of 1 second each. my DPS is:

A) 500
B) 1000
C) HAX

500 damage 4 times dealt over a total of 4 seconds. 4/4 (NOT 2...4) means that the damage is equalling only a total of 500 damage per second. it's not just when the hits are occuring so the "but this move I'll use again before you you do yours" argument is moot when the DPS values have already been established. because (once again) RoF is part of calculating DPS. The answer is A. Also your constant belittlement of a potentially fantastic class BECAUSE of lower DPS just shows your own ignorance. if DPS was all anyone worried about, we'd all be FGs and fGs and we'd all have a grand time as an all male troupe for the better stats (save the occasional female newman FT since they have the better numbers for that class). That's not how we roll so DPS cannot be the only argument for what makes a class good or bad. PTs have fantastic versatility and a very fun weapon selection. THAT's what makes them good.

and really guys. this is becoming a repeat of that tier list topic. the bonuses fGs are getting seem insignificant because for what they do, there wasn't too much room for improvement. I think we can all agree there. and I think we all can agree most of the classes needed a few boosts here and there and are getting them where most needed. That aside, the ability to use full combos with 1-H melee weapons may or may not be underrated. I can see it having some practical use, but as of now, I can't imagine it will be doing a whole lot more for a fG than shunbu or RS is doing for them now. as long as they can pop-up an enemy, I'm not sure they need to be able to fling them too, but in extreme situations, I can see that addition being huge.

[Pillan]

Personally, I find Shunbu and Rising Strike fairly useless after 11 just because the other two throw enemies away after the second combo anyway (and hit three targets instead of just 2). That and I can’t think of any enemies that make me say “I really need to throw the enemy airborne in a shorter time than the full Buten or Gravity combo” as an fG/GT.

20 skills, especially on spears and sabers, becomes very useful on fG when dealing with large mobs with multiple attack points and bullet resistance (read as everything aside from Tengohgs and Jarba), making it even more powerful in solo (remember you have the same HP as an FG and around 80% of the DFP with armor). Not to mention the huge advantage they have over ranged attacks when dealing with bosses.

I actually find that to be the most significant improvement in fG.

[SolomonGrundy]

Personally, I find Shunbu and Rising Strike fairly useless after 11 just because the other two throw enemies away after the second combo anyway (and hit three targets instead of just 2).

Shunbu is no rising strike after 11+, that part I agree with. however throwing enemies away is pretty handy for go-varha's if you have the ATP to kill them with the follow up double hit.

ie, soften them up with fire/virus crossbow, as they close switch to saber, rising strike parts 1 and 2 to finish them off.

[Niloklives]

right, shunbu loses its value at 11+ because of the SIGNIFICANTLY lower DPS. but I put it in there since there are really the only ones that make sense for a fG now. once AoI hits we'll see people move to buten. Pillan is generally right about how useless the knock away is for a fG though. if you're knocking a baddie off their feet you'rre unloading your xbow or mech gun into him while he's down. particularly for your xbow, that followup attack becomes useless. but there are situations where you just need to keep the enemy as far away as possible and a run&gun strategy just hasn't been working. in those situation, rising or buten is better with that second attack, but otherwise I think you're trying to make a fortegunner into a fighgunner.

[panzer_unit]

You can switch targets between the first and second parts of the combo, guys... e.g. Rising Strike can juggle 2 monsters and quickly blow away 2 more. Then you go back to unloading whatever on the guys lying at your feet.

[Niloklives]

right and that's one of the few circumstances where lvl 11+ skills are of value to a fG. but as a fG, in a party, there's no excuse for getting surrounded. Trust me as a FG I use that kind of strategy all the time, panzer. but a fG is generally standing back and keeping enemies pinned, spreading SEs or at closer range is using a xbow. as someone who uses xbows regularly, I tend to favor the first hit of shunbu. keeps the enemies down while I stick a good SE then I'm usually safe, but with xbow mobility keeps me safe. again, I'm not saying that second attack doesn't have its uses. but as a fG, it's less applicable.