To buff or to debuff, that is the quiry [Archive]

Neith

Jun 28, 2007, 06:21 AM

If you're playing WT, I'd focus on buffs, unless there's a Fortetecher in the party (assuming they know what buffing is..).

If you're a GT, your buffs suck, so debuff. Although, in team games both your buffs and debuffs are likely to be outclassed by someone else, so you may not even 'need' to.

If you're a fT, you should be doing both. Jellen reduces the ATP of hard hitting mobs like Go Vahras, which could easily tear an unaware fT apart. Zoldeel used in conjunction with that helps too- lowered enemy EVP helps your fighters/gunners hit, and I think it also lowers enemy ATA, which obviously is handy. Zalure isn't that necessary when you solo, unless you plan on using Card/Bow a lot, but in a team it's really useful.

The only time I can see where a fT may not debuff (outside of boss fights) is if the mobs are too dangerous for the fT to get near. For example, trying to debuff Lv105 Go Vahras in Mad Beasts S2 could be extremely dangerous. In a team, most of the mob attention will be split though, so you should be able to debuff effectively then.

Kimil

Jun 28, 2007, 06:26 AM

Since I'm in the front all the time... I Debuff lol. Rarely do I see Fortechers doing it so I do it quite often...

Whats a good reason Wartechers Shouldn't Debuff? It was originally one of the things WT had going for it, they coul Debuff because it never mattered if they were hit while the Foretecher stayed back because of low HP+DEF ( b4 everyone had high % Armour making them invisible )

ShinMaruku

Jun 28, 2007, 10:35 AM

I just mainly buff. But I think I'll debuff too just to see what I can do.

Ffuzzy-Logik

Jun 28, 2007, 11:01 AM

On 2007-06-28 04:26, Kimil wrote:
Whats a good reason Wartechers Shouldn't Debuff?
All of our offhand weapons blow. Maybe we'll debuff when we get Madoogs. Until then, hell no.

chibiLegolas

Jun 28, 2007, 11:19 AM

I don't find many casters in general debuffing when I'm FiG. If they do, it's usually on high HP or buffed mobs.
Easy mobs aren't worth debuffing in full parties since they die quickly. Only debuff small mobs if you wanna tag for exp. or you're still leveling your tech.

Don't bother debuff'n bosses. It doesn't work. But for large mobs, it's highly recommended.

I always thought debuffs where worth it in general as a FT. But I've never checked how much my debuffs really do help tho. On paper, it sounds good coupled with buffs. I have to recheck the % with them together at 21+.

My recommendation:
FT: Buff definately. Debuff if your nuke'n powers aren't good enough.
WT: Buff/Debuffs are both good.
GT: Debuff mainly. Buff the stat your race is lacking in. (except atp)

[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-06-28 09:26 ]

MSAksion

Jun 28, 2007, 02:29 PM

GT - Debuff or BUFF if no one is around to buff.
WT - Mostly Debuffing. They have HIGH DEF and always up front swinging sharp-ies so might as well DEBUFF too.
FT - Call for a BUFF at each safe interval. I do - right when we emerge from a door and no enemies have spawned yet. Then Debuff whenever there's a chance.

Question - why do lower stuff overwrite the higher status stuff?
1) Why does a BURN Trap overwrite a Status 3 BURN TRAP G?
2) Why does a GT Buff overwrite a Fortetecher's lvl 21 shifta? Why is it like that sega?

If you're a WT or GT then why even bother if an FT is already doing buff/debuff...

...but if you're stuck as the FT then its your SOLE responsibility for buff/debuff? That is WRONG and not fair.

Going in a lvl 100+ Mob throwing BARTA is NOT my idea of fun - i stand midrange and throw nukes while the team HIGH HP/DEF WT can debuff

Inazuma

Jun 28, 2007, 02:46 PM

FT player here. i will always keep the party buffed but i hardly ever use debuffs. they are usually not worth the time and effort. and if i take em off my pallete, it gives me more space for extra attack techs.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 28, 2007, 02:55 PM

WTs not debuffung is sillyness. Range on level 1-10 buffs is terrible. 11+ is useable, at least.

GTs can do zalure with the ultimate handgun art, so I'd skip zalure as a tech.

fTs should use jellen more. It makes a difference, especially v enemies who use pseudo attack techs. (kamatoze, etc).

drizzle

Jun 28, 2007, 04:32 PM

Jellen might occasionally be useful, but Zalure flat out sucks on a WT. It adds, what, 9 damage a hit? I'll spend that time casting a 600-900 damage Diga, instead. It takes over 70 melee hits before Zalure is better.

Astarin

Jun 28, 2007, 05:40 PM

Wartechers have the stats to make them perfect debuffers (high defensive everything), but have very limited pallet space. And they have crappy level 10 bullets, which means they aren't likely to screw around with such a weak weapon combo. Can you blame them?

As a Fortetecher, I've got the buffs up at all times; rarely do I see a need for debuffs. In a large party, everything is killed fairly quickly already. I do use them a lot more on smaller parties (under four players), though. Zalure on anything that takes a while to kill, Jellen on things that smack me around, and Zoldeel on bees.

Fortetechers can often deal great damage with attack techs, and aren't helped as much by most debuffs. But, they do get 21+ debuffs... while I don't have them yet myself, the range looks deliciously large, which would mean I can apply them from a bit of a distance. That's the big reason I don't use them always as a fT; the mission is either so easy that we don't need them at all, or it's really hard, and damned if I'm getting that close to the enemies!

As a Guntecher, I do a little bit of both. I'll usually have one or two buffs active (Shifta and Zodial, lately, but it's highly dependant on the area) and another wand with two debuffs (again, area dependant; see above). If there's anyone with techs higher than me (ie, WT or fT) I leave buffing to them, but continue to debuff.

Why? Guntechers are made to debuff. They're the class that has all the awesome left-hand weapons, level 30 bullets but with only so-so technics. So, what's perfect for the right hand? A debuff wand! Especially if you're a crossbow user, and like to get up close.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 28, 2007, 05:58 PM

On 2007-06-28 14:32, drizzle wrote:
Jellen might occasionally be useful, but Zalure flat out sucks on a WT. It adds, what, 9 damage a hit? I'll spend that time casting a 600-900 damage Diga, instead. It takes over 70 melee hits before Zalure is better.

Guess again. zalure 11+ was an additional 20-25 points per hit with a machine gun vs Tengohs. that's a LOT of damage per hit, especially when you consider it would be helping up to 5 other members.

DreamLocke

Jun 28, 2007, 07:11 PM

My WT has zalure on a wand with dambarta right now. Why not debuff? In parties it's great plus you tag everything and not have to worry about missing out on exp when you're playing support. But it's correct that WT's suffer from limited pallete space and crappy left hand weapons. For soloing I plan on leveling another attack tech (not sure which) but right now I'm planning to get zalure 11+. Later I'll add a dedicated pure debuff wand, but right now it's nice to have one debuff, one attack for flexibility.

My GT however will always alway always debuff. 30 supports in the future, zalure + um anything on their left hand just rocks the house. Plus I'd be an idiot to even consider using attack techs with a CAST GT.

ShinMaruku

Jun 28, 2007, 10:37 PM

With my weapons limited I guess I'll stay with my bread and butter buffs helps me greatly and the one thing I wanna debuff I can so I just buff and do as I do.
Great info I get form you lot easily one of the more helpful sites I been on.

Ffuzzy-Logik

Jun 29, 2007, 01:24 AM

On 2007-06-28 15:40, Astarin wrote:
Wartechers have the stats to make them perfect debuffers (high defensive everything), but have very limited pallet space. And they have crappy level 10 bullets, which means they aren't likely to screw around with such a weak weapon combo. Can you blame them?

As a Fortetecher, I've got the buffs up at all times; rarely do I see a need for debuffs. In a large party, everything is killed fairly quickly already. I do use them a lot more on smaller parties (under four players), though. Zalure on anything that takes a while to kill, Jellen on things that smack me around, and Zoldeel on bees.

Fortetechers can often deal great damage with attack techs, and aren't helped as much by most debuffs. But, they do get 21+ debuffs... while I don't have them yet myself, the range looks deliciously large, which would mean I can apply them from a bit of a distance. That's the big reason I don't use them always as a fT; the mission is either so easy that we don't need them at all, or it's really hard, and damned if I'm getting that close to the enemies!

As a Guntecher, I do a little bit of both. I'll usually have one or two buffs active (Shifta and Zodial, lately, but it's highly dependant on the area) and another wand with two debuffs (again, area dependant; see above). If there's anyone with techs higher than me (ie, WT or fT) I leave buffing to them, but continue to debuff.

Why? Guntechers are made to debuff. They're the class that has all the awesome left-hand weapons, level 30 bullets but with only so-so technics. So, what's perfect for the right hand? A debuff wand! Especially if you're a crossbow user, and like to get up close.

Listen to what this man says.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 29, 2007, 01:44 AM

come AoI, yes. right now...no. the range on level 10 debuffs is painful.

drizzle

Jun 29, 2007, 02:02 AM

On 2007-06-28 15:58, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Guess again. zalure 11+ was an additional 20-25 points per hit with a machine gun vs Tengohs. that's a LOT of damage per hit, especially when you consider it would be helping up to 5 other members.

That was no guess, I tested this on level 85+ Tengohgs and various other S-S2 ranked monsters. Card bullet damage goes from almost 270 to almost 280 a hit. Other weapons I tried have a similar damage increase.
I can't imagine it affecting machineguns more but hey if it does, that's awesome.
But at 10 damage a hit, things die before you ever notice a difference.

mvffin

Jun 29, 2007, 02:46 AM

I zalure a lot with my WT, and zodeel occasionally(bugs,whatnot). it does help some, but also it ensures that i get some xp from all the enemies before everyone else shreds them. is it just me, or is there hardly any FT's around? cause i always end up being the buffer as well.

Sekani

Jun 29, 2007, 09:26 AM

So... Wartechers shouldn't debuff because they have crappy left-hand weapon choices? That's a dumb reason. By that logic they shouldn't be buffing either, but you seem to have no problem with that.

Use debuff wand, cast debuffs, switch weapons, kill things.

DreamLocke

Jun 29, 2007, 10:09 AM

On 2007-06-29 07:26, Sekani wrote:
So... Wartechers shouldn't debuff because they have crappy left-hand weapon choices? That's a dumb reason. By that logic they shouldn't be buffing either, but you seem to have no problem with that.

Use debuff wand, cast debuffs, switch weapons, kill things.

Yeah, I was wondering about the logic about that one. It's not as if WTs aren't used to switching weapon sets constantly; probably more than any other class. GTs have it easy because they can debuff and attack with the same weapon set. WTs do not (except w/ cards)... but I fail to see why you just give up on debuffs altogether because of that "weakness".

Shifta/Zalure+buten or dus daggas is bread and butter for Beast WTs. Buff-debuff-melee. Things die with that combo.

And Mvffin...FT's are everywhere. And no...they generally don't buff or debuff anything. So get used to running support. I had one guy straight out tell me he doesn't do it and was annoyed I was buffing everyone. Because he was the force and if anyone was going to do it he was. Yes, that makes no sense to me either. It was amusing because when he attempted to support us, my buffs were stronger anyway. Go figure.

Oh, and WTs are set up to debuff the best ATM. WT's have the defense and HP to go close range and hit mobs without getting killed. If you are faced with a group of small and big mobs, you can tag them with a debuff and concentrate on the big guy and still get the exp without having to tag everything with a handgun.

Because I actively support 90% of the time and am leveling up my bow bullets right now, I get mistaken for a FT. Until I run in with my spear or dagger and start carving things up then I get a lot of questions as to what the hell class I am.

[ This Message was edited by: DreamLocke on 2007-06-29 08:37 ]

Ffuzzy-Logik

Jun 30, 2007, 12:54 AM

On 2007-06-29 07:26, Sekani wrote:
So... Wartechers shouldn't debuff because they have crappy left-hand weapon choices? That's a dumb reason. By that logic they shouldn't be buffing either, but you seem to have no problem with that.
Because everyone in the party stands still and there are (usually) no monsters around when you're buffing. Also, buffs don't take 3-4 casts before they stick.

I could debuff on my WT, but then I'd have all of, uh, one palette spot open for melee, which is the main job of a WT. Sure, I could switch weapons, but switching a debuff wand for a weapon every other minute becomes extremely tedious when you carry nearly 30 weapons.

As it is now, fT is the best all-purpose debuffer, GT is the best "lol, what the hell else would I pair with a crossbow anyway?" debuffer, and WT is the best "OHGOD WHERE ARE MY WEAPONS??? FUCKING DEBUFFS, STICK ALREADY SO I CAN GET BACK TO DOING DAMAGE! NOW TO SWITCH MY PALETTE. OSHIT, THEY ALL DIED, BACK TO DEBUFF WAND LOLOLOL! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWR!!!!!!" debuffers.

Sekani

Jun 30, 2007, 09:11 AM

On 2007-06-29 22:54, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

I could debuff on my WT, but then I'd have all of, uh, one palette spot open for melee, which is the main job of a WT. Sure, I could switch weapons, but switching a debuff wand for a weapon every other minute becomes extremely tedious when you carry nearly 30 weapons.

Get rid of your two buff wands when there's a fortetecher in the group. Problem solved. If there isn't a fortetecher, improvise. A party doesn't need all four buffs constantly anyway, so pick two and move on.

Besides, debuffs are only worth using on the large enemies that won't die in two or three hits, so you still have plenty of time to melee afterwards.

DreamLocke

Jun 30, 2007, 10:14 AM

As a WT, well at least my playstyle as one, I am used to cycling through my pallete a hell of a lot. Here is an example...

Pull out buff wand...cast shifta/zodial.
Cast retier on other wand if necessary.
Pull out bow with situational element.
If big mob present, try to stick SE if possible
Pull out debuff/attack wand
Tag mob with zalure freeze with dambarta.
Draw melee weapon spear for big mob, dagger otherwise.
If surrounded, renkai with twin daggers.
Pull out buff wand, refresh buffs if needed.

That's usually how it goes if no force is present. But hell, I usually do this if one is because they tend not to run support or my buffs are better anyway. Sounds crazy, but some FT's don't even bother leveling buffs.

If the debuffs don't stick I move on. If the dambarta doesn't inflict freeze I move on. No use wasting time when I need to be melee DD too.

This style may change, but probably not much. I like being able to switch my role on the fly. If I am with a good FT, I can focus on melee and drop the buff wand . But in this case I will probably still be debuffing.

Ffuzzy-Logik

Jun 30, 2007, 05:26 PM

On 2007-06-30 07:11, Sekani wrote:
Get rid of your two buff wands when there's a fortetecher in the group. Problem solved.Haha, what? If there's a fT, he/she should be the one debuffing.

Kaloa

Jul 1, 2007, 04:25 AM

I never buff or debuff when I play GT. I just don't feel as though level 10 buffs/debuffs are worth it. The range on them sucks, and if I want to do extra damage I have the ultimate PA for my twin handguns that applies zalure to enemies WHILE doing great damage from a distance. I prefer to pair my crossbow with a resta/reverser wand so I can keep my (or my parties) HP up and quickly heal annoying status effects. I love being able to deal damage and heal without having to bring up my palette and select another weapon.

I'll probably make an effort to buff/debuff with my GT in AoI when we get the higher level (and more useful) support techs, but for the time being I'd rather not.

Jul 1, 2007, 07:28 AM

On 2007-07-01 02:25, Kaloa wrote:
I never buff or debuff when I play GT. I just don't feel as though level 10 buffs/debuffs are worth it.

Hell, GT techs in general don't feel worth it. I likes me crappy Resta too http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif They up GT's TP in AoI, right?

My Fortetecher only buffs, and on my ice rod I have Zalure as the only debuff; I don't really like the debuffs, they just don't help much. Pair that with how they aren't 100%-stick, and that just is blagh.

Maybe with Madoogs, pair it up with my Dark W'agross (Or whatever it's called) and I'll put Jellen and Zoldeel on that if I see evidence that debuffs are ACTUALLY helpful.

Kaloa

Jul 1, 2007, 11:42 AM

I find my GT more than worth it. I love the class.

Lonzell

Jul 1, 2007, 11:47 AM

Or if you are too lazy to use your magic, just debuff with ultimate PAs. Im a figunner, and even I keep twin maylee on one of my set of deathmakers to debuff in my runs.

Sekani

Jul 1, 2007, 06:18 PM

On 2007-06-30 15:26, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-06-30 07:11, Sekani wrote:
Get rid of your two buff wands when there's a fortetecher in the group. Problem solved.Haha, what? If there's a fT, he/she should be the one debuffing.

Even better! More melee for you!

DreamLocke

Jul 2, 2007, 12:18 PM

Since I'm a hybrid freak, I play both WT and GT.

When I play GT after the WT after a while, I become more aware that my techs are pretty much garbage. Support spells last about half as long, and sure not as strong as my WT. But I find I debuff with my GT a lot more with my GT for some reason. Probably because an attack wand is absolutely out of the question for a CAST GT lol. Plus, I might as well keep grinding those support spells so when AoI comes along, GT's will no longer be the worst casters in the game.

EphekZ

Jul 2, 2007, 09:42 PM

not supporting as a WT(which means resta/reverser/buffs/debuffs) is ludicrous. You have the ability and you should fucking use it. Now if there's FT there then yeah, lay off on buffing, and if you dont see the FT doing it, you should debuff, and yes I do get time to attack and kill monsters. Plus, while debuffing you probably can get more exp if you dont since you casting those on monsters count as tagging them thus giving you the exp.

it's also not hard to just after a mob dies whip out your debuff wand run up to the next mob cast it then start attacking. it seems like a lot of work...oh wait no it doesn't. You just cast two techs then go on with yourself, it's not fucking hard people.

[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2007-07-02 19:43 ]

SolomonGrundy

Jul 3, 2007, 01:48 AM

what Eph said. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Astarin

Jul 3, 2007, 11:02 PM

It's not a matter of time, or effort, when I play WT. It's just pallet space.

Resta/Reverser wand
Wand with two buffs
Wand with two debuffs

That's half my pallet gone, already! That's without even any attack technics. I guess, the point is, for me, if I'm going to buff/heal/debuff all that much, then why not switch back to fT? I try to stick to just the Resta/Reverser wand and one wand with buff(s) and/or debuff(s). That leaves me with four pallet spaces for attacking, which I fill with a mix of attack technics and melee weapons.

Really, it wouldn't be a problem if WT's had Rods instead of Wands. Oh well. This issue will disappear when we get Mags/Madoogs in AoI anyway.

My argument for GT's was simply that debuffs/buffs/whatever don't "take up" any pallet space. The priority for them is the gun hand, so the wands are just filler.

Just thought I'd clarify, since my earlier post seemed to spark some... debate.

Ffuzzy-Logik

Jul 3, 2007, 11:23 PM

On 2007-07-02 19:42, EphekZ wrote:
it's also not hard to just after a mob dies whip out your debuff wand run up to the next mob cast it then start attacking. it seems like a lot of work...oh wait no it doesn't. You just cast two techs then go on with yourself, it's not fucking hard people.No, it isn't hard at all, except for the fact I have no fucking room for a debuff wand (besides, they take a wand and a half for all three anyway) on my palette. Sure, I could swap it in and out after ever spawn (lol), but I carry over 25 weapons, so switching it would be a major pain. I also can't Resta people too well while constantly sorting through my menu trying to find a wand that is less useful to the party than just spamming Buten or Daggas.

That brings up the other point. There's no reason to debuff every single monster, because most are pushovers anyway. Sure, Jellen and Zalure big things, and Zoldeel things with crazy EVP, but there's really no point in Jellening every single Ageeta that pops up.

Sekani

Jul 4, 2007, 08:55 AM

On 2007-07-03 21:02, Astarin wrote:
It's not a matter of time, or effort, when I play WT. It's just pallet space.

Resta/Reverser wand
Wand with two buffs
Wand with two debuffs

That's half my pallet gone, already! That's without even any attack technics. I guess, the point is, for me, if I'm going to buff/heal/debuff all that much, then why not switch back to fT? I try to stick to just the Resta/Reverser wand and one wand with buff(s) and/or debuff(s). That leaves me with four pallet spaces for attacking, which I fill with a mix of attack technics and melee weapons.

That's pretty much exactly how I play most of the time, so no argument there.

Depending on the party/mission setup though, I have no problem having four or even five wands on my palette. There's no shame in being a substitute force if that's what is needed.