So, they didn't fix it? [Archive]

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 04:18 PM

"Shell out" money for scapes?? How often do you die? If you try to NOT die, you will spend less on scape dolls.

You're completely missing the point. The point is that there's already no penalty because it's pretty much required to carry Scape Dolls DUE to the penalty. Why even bother penalizing you at all with the current system?

And I think this new system is a joke. This game was already pretty unchallenging as it is, but to not penalize people for ANYTHING?!?!?! If they take away the death penalty, how does a party NOT get an S rank on every mission? Why even have rankings at the end? As long as you can complete the mission you'll get an S rank....where is the challenge? I think I'm going to start playing in split screen and watch TV while I'm playing.

The party NOT gets S ranks by not being thorough and by not supporting eachother. If you read further in, you'd notice that the person has to be revived IE- NOT forced to respawn in town for the penalty nullification not to take effect. So it encourages teamwork; otherwise, there IS a penalty.

And you exaggerate the game's lack of challenge.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 14:20 ]

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 04:24 PM

While we're at it, lets reduce all PP costs on PAs to 0. I mean, you're just going to recharge it anyway, right? Also, everything should have 100% drop rates. C'mon, we're going to hunt it repeatedly anyway, we'll eventually get it, might as well make it faster so I can enjoy the game more, yeah?

You have a point, but you are misdirecting this sarcasm at something that barely affects the current 'difficulty' at all. This is a fix to a misguided mechanic that was supposed to encourage teamwork and present challenge but ended up doing neither. All it created was aggravation and social stigma (no scapes? OMG *boot*).

I am wholly in favor of a better system than either of these. But for the current PSU, since SOJ is not intent on solving problems at their core, this is about the best the death penalty issue is going to be resolved.

Sychosis

Jun 29, 2007, 04:40 PM

GuardianPoe

Jun 29, 2007, 04:56 PM

On 2007-06-29 14:40, Sychosis wrote:
If that's your opinion, then we agree. Both systems are stupid. But at least this one is realistic. You're graded on performance. Dying should affect this rating greatly as it is pretty much the biggest fuck up you can make.

While dying is obviously a pretty big screw up, things like Megid should be accounted for. I've had times where I was hit and killed from offscreen, something I couldn't have very well dodged due to camera angle. Sometimes you just get cheaped out, and Scape Dolls are only fair to those who can afford it (and I do say this as someone who can afford a whole lot of them).

I think time actually should be incorporated as a factor for S ranks, ala the firebreak missions. If nothing else, I was able to determine how good a group I was in by their performance, and I've been in teams with low level players, or a team without a force of any sort, and was able to pull off S runs where higher leveled teams couldn't.

Something should be done though, because I have to agree that it's downright retarded that moons are virtually useless most of the time. Making time into a factor in standard missions would justify the need to resurrect someone quickly, to get them back into the fight.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 29, 2007, 05:22 PM

On 2007-06-29 13:21, Sychosis wrote:
While we're at it, lets reduce all PP costs on PAs to 0. I mean, you're just going to recharge it anyway, right? Also, everything should have 100% drop rates. C'mon, we're going to hunt it repeatedly anyway, we'll eventually get it, might as well make it faster so I can enjoy the game more, yeah?

Skill and Gun PAs were effectively free in PSO. Just sayin...

Sychosis

Jun 29, 2007, 05:34 PM

On 2007-06-29 15:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-06-29 13:21, Sychosis wrote:
While we're at it, lets reduce all PP costs on PAs to 0. I mean, you're just going to recharge it anyway, right? Also, everything should have 100% drop rates. C'mon, we're going to hunt it repeatedly anyway, we'll eventually get it, might as well make it faster so I can enjoy the game more, yeah?

Skill and Gun PAs were effectively free in PSO. Just sayin...

In a game where meseta was worthless to begin with...

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 05:38 PM

Right, time all missions, like the NEW S2 missions with the lovely Bil De Vears that you have to kill off.... umm... no. Over all preformance is good enough for all the basic missions. Death should count in a lot of the missions, and if you die thats your fault, no matter how random of a occurance it was.

The times I got hit by a stray Megid, or stuck between Bil De Vears doing Zangief on my ass was my own fuck up and my fault preformance wise for not positioning myself better. Other people need to grow the balls to fess up to this too and stop looking for excuses otherwise.

Sekani

Jun 29, 2007, 06:02 PM

Nice to see that other people agree that S-ranks should be earned, not given.

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 06:14 PM

If people din't suck then they wouldn't care about the death penalty. Here's a thought, TRY HARDER NOT TO DIE! If you do die, buy a scapedoll!! I understand the npc and PM no death penalty, but as for a player with FULL control and the ability to buy scapedolls, armor, units, etc. you have no excuse for not getting an S ranking due to death. STop acting like the death penalty is all that bad. Moons and Giresta are for boss battels where you cannot rejoin, not to help slackers get and easy S ran!!!!!

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 06:34 PM

If that's your opinion, then we agree. Both systems are stupid. But at least this one is realistic. You're graded on performance. Dying should affect this rating greatly as it is pretty much the biggest fuck up you can make.

In general, people can't play the game right as evident by the NUMEROUS "my class is gimp, we are t3h sux0r" threads. Elitism or not, most people complaining about the death penalty, flat out suck at playing. I'm sorry.

*nods* I agree. You are one of the sane people XD.

Although, I still think the death penalty is still the wrong way to approach this in the first place, as it only encourages stigma against the person that died as well as a self-assertion to prevent death through self means only; as opposed to any kind of actual team support to prevent death such as the healer healing.

Think about how PSU is played right now; a disturbing number of people treat it as a very 'every man for himself' sort of game. You're expected to heal yourself and prevent death by yourself, while tagging everything so you get exp before your team kills the enemies and moves on without you. There is very little actual teamwork and even the teamwork in timed missions is very sketchy and self-centered. You still get people left behind and forced to deal with things themselves that should have been cleared by the team beforehand. Teamwork and co-dependence are treated as something of an inconvenience.*

The way it SHOULD be is that everyone should support eachother. But Sonic Team has created a game that discourages the kind of teamwork they wanted to encourage in the first place; and that is unfortunately reflected by a lot of its playerbase.

I really think the whole system should just be revised. The way MP, Meseta and Exp are rewarded, the mission structure, the missions themselves, so on.

Regardless, I'm done conjecturing. More appropriate to the topic, I'm glad to see at least an advance towards improvement in this regard. I should hope that for AOI they plan to actually address the problem at its core eventually, however.

* - Obviously, exceptions do apply http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Also, the people freaking out about how this creates slackers are being ridiculous. If someone is clearly not contributing (as opposed to simply having bad luck or in a compromising position, mind you- people need to learn the difference between contribution and limitations), then you do not have to facilitate their S rank; the option to boot them is still and will always be there.

APEXi

Jun 29, 2007, 06:35 PM

this game gets more and more nub friendly every day. seriously, wtf - there really are NO consequences whatsoever to poor playing/death/etc. all it has turned into is one big grind and it's just a matter of how many hours you sink into the game rather than how well you perform. no one seems to want a challenge, they all want shit to just be handed to them. if you're going to play w/o scapes, be prepared for the repercussions, don;t cry because you died and cost yourself some money or mp, whatever.

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 06:45 PM

On 2007-06-29 16:34, Reipard wrote:

If that's your opinion, then we agree. Both systems are stupid. But at least this one is realistic. You're graded on performance. Dying should affect this rating greatly as it is pretty much the biggest fuck up you can make.

In general, people can't play the game right as evident by the NUMEROUS "my class is gimp, we are t3h sux0r" threads. Elitism or not, most people complaining about the death penalty, flat out suck at playing. I'm sorry.

*nods* I agree. You are one of the sane people XD.

Although, I still think the death penalty is still the wrong way to approach this in the first place, as it only encourages stigma against the person that died as well as a self-assertion to prevent death through self means only; as opposed to any kind of actual team support to prevent death such as the healer healing.

Think about how PSU is played right now; a disturbing number of people treat it as a very 'every man for himself' sort of game. You're expected to heal yourself and prevent death by yourself, while tagging everything so you get exp before your team kills the enemies and moves on without you. There is very little actual teamwork and even the teamwork in timed missions is very sketchy and self-centered. You still get people left behind and forced to deal with things themselves that should have been cleared by the team beforehand. Teamwork and co-dependence are treated as something of an inconvenience.*

The way it SHOULD be is that everyone should support eachother. But Sonic Team has created a game that discourages the kind of teamwork they wanted to encourage in the first place; and that is unfortunately reflected by a lot of its playerbase.

I really think the whole system should just be revised. The way MP, Meseta and Exp are rewarded, the mission structure, the missions themselves, so on.

Regardless, I'm done conjecturing. More appropriate to the topic, I'm glad to see at least an advance towards improvement in this regard. I should hope that for AOI they plan to actually address the problem at its core eventually, however.

* - Obviously, exceptions do apply http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Also, the people freaking out about how this creates slackers are being ridiculous. If someone is clearly not contributing (as opposed to simply having bad luck or in a compromising position, mind you- people need to learn the difference between contribution and limitations), then you do not have to facilitate their S rank; the option to boot them is still and will always be there.

Booting people will help with team work? If you are doing A an S mission and you don't know how to buy scapedolls or tell people you're out of them then you deserve to be insulted, period! If paying 5k is the difference between A and S rank and you can't do that, you should sell your game to a friend. Scaprdolls don't require skill, just a visit to a shop. Don't have 5k? GO TO A PLAYER SHOP!!!!!

People complaining about the death penalty have no excuse to. As long as it doesn't apply to NPCs and PMs then there is no problem. Dying on a misson should be considered a crime. Moons and Giresta are meant for boss battles when someone runs out of scapes and you cannot rejoin in the middle of the battle. Using them during the middle of a mission is pointless when you can warp back for free!!!!!!!!!!

F-Gattaca

Jun 29, 2007, 06:47 PM

Wow, it doesn't take long for the complainers to descend on any sort of "scape nerf" discussion, with the same attitudes as the LAST thread. It's like a meet and greet here, sheesh.

Well, it goes without saying that my opinions of said complainers has not changed, if they're going to continue yelling about Sega attempting to bring usefulness back to certain things in the game people completely ignore because they're useless under this current system.

Beige's LJ post about complainers still stands as an effective counter to every one of these people who go "this game is getting too nub friendly," "too hand-it-to-you," "too carebear," "too softcore," "too easy mode nao," and whatever variant they come up with to say the same thing.

You know what gets me though? The complainers who yell and holler that this makes it easier to grief parties running missions because people will get themselves killed and leave.

Um ... what?

Do I need to mention jeM's Cakebombing from times not so long ago?

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 06:53 PM

Booting people will help with team work? If you are doing A an S mission and you don't know how to buy scapedolls or tell people you're out of them then you deserve to be insulted, period! If paying 5k is the difference between A and S rank and you can't do that, you should sell your game to a friend. Scaprdolls don't require skill, just a visit to a shop. Don't have 5k? GO TO A PLAYER SHOP!!!!!

>_<

You boot people who are not being cooperative and are discouraging said teamwork. I thought I made the context pretty clear from the outset, but apparently I did not make it clear enough.

People complaining about the death penalty have no excuse to. As long as it doesn't apply to NPCs and PMs then there is no problem. Dying on a misson should be considered a crime. Moons and Giresta are meant for boss battles when someone runs out of scapes and you cannot rejoin in the middle of the battle. Using them during the middle of a mission is pointless when you can warp back for free!!!!!!!!!!

If you have no intention of acknowledging or comprehending my posts despite 'replying' to them (In actuality, all you did was go 'Well, <reiterate>'), then I have no intention of further continuing a discussion with you.

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 06:58 PM

If people are too stupid or lazy to buy Scapedolls then they deserve grief, the same as people wearing Ice armor on a fire mission, or using earth weapons on earth enemies because they look cool...

I'm not saying you have to do things a certain way, you paid for the game, but you sshould accept the consequences of your actions! Be accountable for the actions you take, Don't buy scapedolls? Then accept that when you die you'll lose money, mp, and have a good chance at ridicule. Use ice armor on a fire mission? Don't complain when the fortetecher get's pissed off at healing you 24/7, etc. etc.

It doesn't take skill to buy a scapedoll and if you aren't smart enough to stock up on them, or even if you are poor if you aren't smart enough to buy them in player shops then you suck at this game, period. If i run out of scapes I annouce it to the team and stay by the person that is healing, no healer and I leave the field and buy some friggin scape dolls!!!

It's not rocket science, it isn't hard, and there is no reason why anyone couldn't stay stocked up on friggin scape dolls. If buying them is too hard or too big a deal for anyone might i suggest playing Big Bird's Skate Party or barbie Dress-Up????

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-06-29 16:59 ]

Triple_S

Jun 29, 2007, 06:59 PM

PSU: Serious Business.

Seriously. People who take the game as seriously as half of the people in this thread need to get something better to do. Go take your dominance somewhere else. I want to have fun, not worry about a bunch of elitist pricks booting me from the party because I'm not playing as good as them. Someone in the party needs Scape Dolls because they ran out or something and forgot to buy some. Boot. That isn't how PSU should be played. If someone ran out of Scape Dolls and forgot to pick some up because perhaps they didn't notice they were out until already in the mission, that person needs extra protection and help, or maybe just give them a freaking Scape if they're SOOOOOOO easy to aquire.

This is one of the reasons I haven't gone online yet. People are just in it for the, "My e-penis is bigger than yours" factor.

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 07:01 PM

If people are too stupid or lazy to buy Scapedolls then they deserve grief, the same as people wearing Ice armor on a fire mission, or using earth weapons on earth enemies because they look cool...

I'm not saying you have to do things a certain way, you paid for the game, but you sshould accept the consequences of your actions! Be accountable for the actions you take, Don't buy scapedolls? Then accept that when you die you'll lose money, mp, and have a good chance at ridicule. Use ice armor on a fire mission? Don't complain when the fortetecher get's pissed off at healing you 24/7, etc. etc.

It doesn't take skill to buy a scapedoll and if you aren't smart enough to stock up on them, or even if you are poor if you aren't smart enough to buy them in player shops then you suck at this game, period. If i run out of scapes I annouce it to the team and stay by the person that is healing, no healer and I leave the field and buy some friggin scape dolls!!!

It's not rocket science, it isn't hard, and there is no reason why anyone couldn't stay stocked up on friggin scape dolls. If buying them is too hard or too big a deal for anyone might i suggest playing Big Bird's Skate Party or barbie Dress-Up????

Yeah, just about everything I said is bouncing right off of you.

Do you like cookies? I do! ^_^ You want a cookie?

The Eiffel Tower is tall.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 17:01 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 17:02 ]

Almighty_Envy

Jun 29, 2007, 07:02 PM

On 2007-06-29 16:47, F-Gattaca wrote:

You know what gets me though? The complainers who yell and holler that this makes it easier to grief parties running missions because people will get themselves killed and leave.

Thatd annoy me but, it happens.

Do I need to mention jeM's Cakebombing from times not so long ago?

Yes <_<

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 07:09 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:01, Reipard wrote:

If people are too stupid or lazy to buy Scapedolls then they deserve grief, the same as people wearing Ice armor on a fire mission, or using earth weapons on earth enemies because they look cool...

I'm not saying you have to do things a certain way, you paid for the game, but you sshould accept the consequences of your actions! Be accountable for the actions you take, Don't buy scapedolls? Then accept that when you die you'll lose money, mp, and have a good chance at ridicule. Use ice armor on a fire mission? Don't complain when the fortetecher get's pissed off at healing you 24/7, etc. etc.

It doesn't take skill to buy a scapedoll and if you aren't smart enough to stock up on them, or even if you are poor if you aren't smart enough to buy them in player shops then you suck at this game, period. If i run out of scapes I annouce it to the team and stay by the person that is healing, no healer and I leave the field and buy some friggin scape dolls!!!

It's not rocket science, it isn't hard, and there is no reason why anyone couldn't stay stocked up on friggin scape dolls. If buying them is too hard or too big a deal for anyone might i suggest playing Big Bird's Skate Party or barbie Dress-Up????

Yeah, just about everything I say is bouncing right off of you.

Do you like cookies? I do! ^_^ You want a cookie?

The Eiffel Tower is tall.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 17:01 ]

I only responded to one point you made, the others i didn't dispute except the death penalty stance. Get a life....

Second, teamwork inforcement could be easily handled by making a ranking on how many times people healed each other/total player kill distribution/and whatever combination of variables you want, but since we are discussing the current system, and this isn't your thread, i thought I'd stay on topic...

A) not hard to buy scapes

B) Not hard to type "out of scapes"

C) If you forgot, say "Sorry, forgot scapes, going to get some now" party says "np, get some and we'll see u in a sec"

D) If you complain about how easy this is you are made of failure....

If you want to dispute the current system then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that buying scape dolls is a simple task that if you think is hard or too much trouble then you have less skill then a sleeping baby because buying things in a shop = easy, period...

I never insulted you, so stop being an internet "intelectual" and acting like your points are worth insulting people directly over.

F-Gattaca

Jun 29, 2007, 07:09 PM

Technically, XDeviousX, the people who use same-element attacks on monsters, and wear opposite-element armor fighting them, are more hardcore than you are. They don't deserve your grief, but admiration.

They're making the game harder for themselves by putting handicaps on their defense and attack abilities. Heck, wearing 50% opposite element armor would make the game even more dangerous than wearing none at all, I think.

Probably about as dangerous as the 1 HP runs people do, but I think only ranger-type classes can get away with that ...

This is one of the reasons I haven't gone online yet. People are just in it for the, "My e-penis is bigger than yours" factor.

Well, don't let the "this game is too easy" complainers in this thread fool you. Not everyone is like that. I'm not. If the team screws up somewhere and gets less than S-rank, I don't bash and boot.

Other than that, your post was awesomely well timed, using XDeviousX's ranting as the perfect backdrop. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:11 PM

God people here make it sound like Scapes are easy to find in player shops, ITS NOT. People who DO have scapes are using them or stocking them up for themselves BECAUSE of this death penalty!

And this system is unfriendly to new players who NEED the S ranks to get to advanced class, and don't have the money to get scapes, even if a player actually sells them. I doubt they will price them any lower than 3 k, and like I said before, not many shops sell them cause they USE them.

And when the shop search has results? 99% of them have scapedoll BOARDS they wanna get rid of, and guess how many Omega acids there are to SYNTH these things? Not many!

Quit assuming things are easy like you said. Its easy for people who have been playing for monthes and have alot of cash, its not easy for a new person to get the concept, or have the money to get the scapes in the first place.

Even people with alot of cash like I do are sick of wasting scapes cause of cheap spells like megid or dambartas. We actually wanna use these meseta to get better armour/weapons etc so those things die quicker, saving everyone REAL grief, but this systems doesn't allow that, and most of the time the money I just earned from the mission are all used on scapes, half the time I made no profit from the mission, and instead have alot more losses cause each scape costed 5K.

Not to mention Moons and Giresta is useless except boss fights, but IMO, boss fights are actually easier to NOT die because its one huge monsters with a repetive attack pattern, who doesn't have cheap spells like those Jarbas have.

As for not re positioning cameras so you won't get hit by stray megid, god, now you want use to be all invicinble with our point of vision? Only rangers have that option to strafe around and attack, most other melees have to get up close to deal some decent damage, they are bound to get hit by stray megids or dambartas. Sometimes there's only so much a player can do before rotten luck takes place. And most deaths I've seen are rotten luck, or worst, horrible placements of enemies (Urgent orders B3 with Jarbas and those buffed Olgohmon anyone?) The so called terrible player deaths are by new players, who are still learning.

Like Triple S said, if its so easy to get scapes and you are sick of them not bringing any, GIVE THEM SOME.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:18 ]

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 07:18 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:11, Kairi_Li wrote:
God people here make it sound like Scapes are easy to find in player shops, ITS NOT. People who DO have scapes are using them or stocking them up for themselves BECAUSE of this death penalty!

And this system is unfriendly to new players who NEED the S ranks to get to advanced class, and don't have the money to get scapes, even if a player actually sells them. I doubt they will price them any lower than 3 k, and like I said before, not many shops sell them cause they USE them.

Quit assuming things are easy like you said. Its easy for people who have been playing for monthes and have alot of cash, its not easy for a new person to get the concept, or have the money to get the scapes in the first place.''

Not to mention Moons and Giresta is useless except boss fights, but IMO, boss fights are actually easier to NOT die because its one huge monsters with a repetive attack pattern, who doesn't have cheap spells like those Jarbas have.

As for not re positioning cameras so you won't get hit by stray megid, god, now you want use to be all invicinble with our point of vision? Only rangers have that option to strafe around and attack, most other melees have to get up close to deal some decent damage, they are bound to get hit by stray megids or dambartas. Sometimes there's only so much a player can do before rotten luck takes place. And most deaths I've seen are rotten luck, or worst, horrible placements of enemies (Urgent orders B3 with Jarbas and those buffed Olgohmon anyone?) The so called terrible player deaths are by new players, who are still learning.

Like Triple S said, if its so easy to get scapes and you are sick of them not bringing any, GIVE THEM SOME.

New players shouldn't have an easy time getting S Ranks or buying scapes. 5k is a lot for a lvl 5 character to get, but it gets easier.

for any1 willing to yse an earth weapon on an earth monster, fine, but in a team its a bit annoying waiting 5 years for you to kill it, unless the whole team is in on it....

As for using Ice armor on fire mobs, I used a sori-senba for a long time, and when I got owned by foi spells I accepted having to buy more scapes and mates then other people on fire missions without complaint or hassling the group. People need to own up to their actions.

As for the big e-peens, most of you posting how people are showing theirs off are also doing it by trying to insult people with witty internet comebacks showing off your e-peens...

Scape Dolls aren't so expensive you can't buy 3 or 4 instead for some nice new shoes, eveyone has money for cloths, why not scape? People can't be too poor as I've seen almost every1 in a new outfit today...

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:19 PM

People with new outfits are obviously not new players.

Jeez its like talking to a brick wall.

And to quote on my edited post:

Even people with alot of cash like I do are sick of wasting scapes cause of cheap spells like megid or dambartas. We actually wanna use these meseta to get better armour/weapons etc so those things die quicker, saving everyone REAL grief, but this systems doesn't allow that, and most of the time the money I just earned from the mission are all used on scapes, half the time I made no profit from the mission, and instead have alot more losses cause each scape costed 5K.

Most of us actually wanna EARN meseta again from missions, instead of just relying on our shops.

Alot of people died from megid cause they're in a middle of a photon art, or frozen, or just plain bad luck, it happens, its got nothing to do with skills. Get over it.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:22 ]

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 07:20 PM

I find the best results to keep those 'I just wanna have fun and fuck up everyones run who have been shooting for the top' out of my rooms by setting the room topic as "S Rank Runs - Bring Scapes"

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 07:23 PM

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:24 PM

Alot of people died from megid cause they're in a middle of a photon art, or frozen, or just plain bad luck, it happens, its got nothing to do with skills. Get over it.

These complainers don't read, they just want everyone to agree with them and using player skills as a poor excuse and shield. Or worst, to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Yeesh.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:29 ]

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 07:27 PM

I only responded to one point you made, the others i didn't dispute except the death penalty stance. Get a life....

Second, teamwork inforcement could be easily handled by making a ranking on how many times people healed each other/total player kill distribution/and whatever combination of variables you want, but since we are discussing the current system, and this isn't your thread, i thought I'd stay on topic...

A) not hard to buy scapes

B) Not hard to type "out of scapes"

C) If you forgot, say "Sorry, forgot scapes, going to get some now" party says "np, get some and we'll see u in a sec"

D) If you complain about how easy this is you are made of failure....

If you want to dispute the current system then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that buying scape dolls is a simple task that if you think is hard or too much trouble then you have less skill then a sleeping baby because buying things in a shop = easy, period...

I never insulted you, so stop being an internet "intelectual" and acting like your points are worth insulting people directly over.

I am not insulting you directly. I have simply made the observation that you are doing nothing more than reiterating your point over and over like a broken record, nomatter what I actually say.

You misinterpreted the point you replied to and then went into a rant that demonstrated that you really didn't read it at all. I will reiterate in turn: If you don't feel the person is contributing to the team or is being disruptive to the team's goal, then there is the boot button. This fits perfectly in line with your way of thinking. I do not agree with your opinion, but you are adamant enough in restating it over and over that convincing you otherwise is a pointless endeavor.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 17:28 ]

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 07:29 PM

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 07:30 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:19, Kairi_Li wrote:
People with new outfits are obviously not new players.

Jeez its like talking to a brick wall.

And to quote on my edited post:

Even people with alot of cash like I do are sick of wasting scapes cause of cheap spells like megid or dambartas. We actually wanna use these meseta to get better armour/weapons etc so those things die quicker, saving everyone REAL grief, but this systems doesn't allow that, and most of the time the money I just earned from the mission are all used on scapes, half the time I made no profit from the mission, and instead have alot more losses cause each scape costed 5K.

Most of us actually wanna EARN meseta again from missions, instead of just relying on our shops.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:21 ]

I find people that complain about dying from megid are also the people that have never used reiter in conjuntion with an armor with good dark% and a stamina boosting unit... If you die a lot after that you should complain about buying scapes. I rarely die from megid attacks and I rarely need to buy scapes after a mission....

I also feel like people want everything handed to them on a silve platter. PSO had a lot of "rares" but everyone had them. Sure it was from hacking mostly, but still, a rare should be special because few people have them.

Honestly how often do you spend a full 50k after a mission? If you do sea lab s or s2, crimson beast, etc. you can get that in a run or 2 easy with the reward plus found mesta. For lower leveled NEW characters the game should be harder to get an S-Rank on a mission...

It's not like I have 20 million mesta and every rare in the game. I just think people that think buying scapes is that tough is sad. I have had the same 8 scape dolls in my inventory for the past week and 1/2! I've been doing S and S2 missions as well. If you get rid of the death penalty in the current reward system how does any1 fail a mission????

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:32 PM

Accidental deaths happen alot, especially combining a frozen ablitiy with a spell that instant kills you. Its about bad luck, not skills.

Like I said before, none of you read or take in what we said, you all believe that you are right abotu everything cause you believe you are a better player. You're not, you had better luck, and that's all.

Or worst you probably strafe around and shoot even if you lack a ranger class, leaving the rest of the team to actually deal better damage up close, then cuss them out for dying because they're actually tearing them apart for you, so YOU don't have to die.

I find people that complain about dying from megid are also the people that have never used reiter in conjuntion with an armor with good dark% and a stamina boosting unit... If you die a lot after that you should complain about buying scapes. I rarely die from megid attacks and I rarely need to buy scapes after a mission....

Yes, cause everyone can afford and easily synth a dark armour.

Casts and Beasts use SUVs, while others may be using HP restore.

You dont get 50 k from crimson beasts, I only used 3-4 scapes in CB S2 and ended with losses than profit for that mission.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:35 ]

Sekani

Jun 29, 2007, 07:33 PM

Kairi_Li, if you're level 15 or something then any non-asshole will understand if you can't afford a scape doll. But if you're using that excuse when you step into an S or S2 mission, even Mother Teresa would boot you.

Also, if you're dying so much that you're spending every dime you have on scape dolls, you are doing something seriously wrong. EVERYONE gets popped by a stray megid or super-foie on occasion, but for most people that happens once every two or three runs, not constantly. Don't beg people for money for scapes, beg them for advice on learning how to not die so much.

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:37 PM

There are occasions where I did get no megid and no super foie in my way.

But there are occasions where it does happen. And thats when people get pissy for bad luck.

And know what happens with super foie in Urgent Orders A? I get back up after scaped, only to die immediatly cause a foie was coming at me as I GOT UP.

You people can't accept the idea that maybe, just maybe, there are runs where its just one rotten luck after another, and in no way reflects a player's skills. I get profit for CB on a good day, on horrid ones I lose out ALOT.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:39 ]

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 07:38 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:32, Kairi_Li wrote:
Accidental deaths happen alot, especially combining a frozen ablitiy with a spell that instant kills you. Its about bad luck, not skills.

Like I said before, none of you read or take in what we said, you all believe that you are right abotu everything cause you believe you are a better player. You're not, you had better luck, and that's all.

Or worst you probably strafe around and shoot even if you lack a ranger class, leaving the rest of the team to actually deal better damage up close, then cuss them out for dying because they're actually tearing them apart for you, so YOU don't have to die.

I find people that complain about dying from megid are also the people that have never used reiter in conjuntion with an armor with good dark% and a stamina boosting unit... If you die a lot after that you should complain about buying scapes. I rarely die from megid attacks and I rarely need to buy scapes after a mission....

Yes, cause everyone can afford and easily synth a dark armour.

Casts and Beasts use SUVs, while others may be using HP restore.

You dont get 50 k from crimson beasts, I only used 3-4 scapes in CB S2 and ended with losses than profit for that mission.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:35 ]

Accidental deaths? I didn't know there were any other types of deaths save for, maybe suicidal ones that people will have done to themselves on purpose.... Of course death is accidental, hence the purpose of having scapedolls on you. But to die over and over and over on the same run, there is obviously something you aren't doing right and ned to change up.

SolomonGrundy

Jun 29, 2007, 07:41 PM

On 2007-06-29 15:34, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-06-29 15:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-06-29 13:21, Sychosis wrote:
While we're at it, lets reduce all PP costs on PAs to 0. I mean, you're just going to recharge it anyway, right? Also, everything should have 100% drop rates. C'mon, we're going to hunt it repeatedly anyway, we'll eventually get it, might as well make it faster so I can enjoy the game more, yeah?

Skill and Gun PAs were effectively free in PSO. Just sayin...

In a game where meseta was worthless to begin with...

that was not your original point. nor my counter point.

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:42 PM

I only die about 3-4 times the most. The misson that drained all my scapes is Dalk Falkis. I just like the idea that I don't have to carry scapes just so I don't pull everyone down, along with everyone. In order to S it with insurance, everyone ends up paying alot more than they should have, and the only reason we can afford scapes readily its because of the hacked meseta.

I'm happy that we're getting a change, and that moons and giresta will actually be used. I'm soryy if the rest of you dont, but whining about people not having so called skills or dying too much or the game's to easy isn't helping anyone, and its insulting to alot of players who only died cause of bad bad luck.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:43 ]

F-Gattaca

Jun 29, 2007, 07:42 PM

Again, it boils down to encouraging a bit more teamwork and the use of recovery items other than scapes.

The so-called "scape nerf" will have the effect of making it less expensive to run missions in a team rather than solo--and attempting to solo missions without scapes will still be just like the way things are now--no one is around to save your butt, so if you don't have scapes, you've lost your S-rank.

In a team, though--unless everyone is wiped--you will ideally have people who can run by, atomize you, or a techer eager to level his/her Giresta, a tech which as of now only had use in Firebreak, and even then was overlooked due to many of the missions and their time limit.

Maybe the only way these "oh noes its easy mode nao" people will stop yelling is if missions put the focus on objectives where you are graded for something other than kill count and team deaths--and, preferrably, NOT timed missions (those won't make giresta useful because no one will want to wait on Giresta's cast time).

In-character speaking, we ARE Guardians. We're employees of a security corporation, and we've been around for a while. The SEED invasion is a recent development ... There had to've been other kinds of contracts and jobs we did other than "get in there and kill everything that moves."

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 07:43 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:32, Kairi_Li wrote:
Accidental deaths happen alot, especially combining a frozen ablitiy with a spell that instant kills you. Its about bad luck, not skills.

Like I said before, none of you read or take in what we said, you all believe that you are right abotu everything cause you believe you are a better player. You're not, you had better luck, and that's all.

Or worst you probably strafe around and shoot even if you lack a ranger class, leaving the rest of the team to actually deal better damage up close, then cuss them out for dying because they're actually tearing them apart for you, so YOU don't have to die.

I find people that complain about dying from megid are also the people that have never used reiter in conjuntion with an armor with good dark% and a stamina boosting unit... If you die a lot after that you should complain about buying scapes. I rarely die from megid attacks and I rarely need to buy scapes after a mission....

Yes, cause everyone can afford and easily synth a dark armour.

Casts and Beasts use SUVs, while others may be using HP restore.

You dont get 50 k from crimson beasts, I only used 3-4 scapes in CB S2 and ended with losses than profit for that mission.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:35 ]

3 or 4 scapes on CB S2 everytime? once or twice in a month have I died 4 times in 1 run. That seems extreme... Reiter can still be used as well as a stamina boosting unit, if you choose to use a hp regen, that is your set-up and choice, but again, accept the consequence of that. Dark% armor isn't so expensive to buy, might be harder to synth,, but I bought a 22% dark Yamata Snba for 59k the other day and a crimson line at 20% dark for 75k. If I can find it, you can...

If you are dying so much and everyone else isn't you need to see why. This isn't an insult, but maybe you should rethink your set-up or even your style of play. Going through 4 or 5 scapes on a run regualarly is outragous!!!!

Kairi_Li

Jun 29, 2007, 07:46 PM

Trouble is the whiners are all "every man for himself" people, and that each person is responsible for having scapes or healing themselves.

How about some team work involved in KILLING those jarbas? Did you know my boyfriend ended up S-ing Urgent Oders A WITHOUT a goddamn force? How you ask? TEAM WORK. The fighgunners were drawing their fire, the heavey duty attackers spam them from behind. There was alot of damage dealt and fire drawing that the Jarbas didnt even get to use ANY spells.

Maybe people should think on THAT type of skill instead of individual ones.

Though I bet their so called skills involved strafing around the jarab and do lil damage with their handguns, and let other more gutsy players to actually axe them in the face. Then due to bad luck they get hit by megid, or frozen to death, and peope cuss them out and say they suck.

And cheap armours are sold fast and quickly. And since armours are so hard to synth, they won't come cheap most of the time. You got LUCKY.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:50 ]

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 07:47 PM

SolomonGrundy

Jun 29, 2007, 07:50 PM

On the subject of megid: in PSO, wearing 45%-60% dark resist was enough to protect you from megids (you might perish one out of every 10 megids)

It was arguably just as easy to dodge then as it is now. Especially if you plyed EP2.

What sucks about PSU is that magids also does damage, and if you get hit for even 1 point you might be insta killed. Only fortetechers can easily achive this. the other way to resist is to jack up your endurance. However there really isn't enough data to show how much of a difference there is between 10, and 19 stamina. (19 is the highest you can get, currently).

Sekani

Jun 29, 2007, 07:51 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:42, Kairi_Li wrote:
I only die about 3-4 times the most. The misson that drained all my scapes is Dalk Falkis. I just like the idea that I don't have to carry scapes just so I don't pull everyone down, along with everyone. In order to S it with insurance, everyone ends up paying alot more than they should have, and the only reason we can afford scapes readily its because of the hacked meseta.
Half of the people debating with you are 360 players, so don't try to use hacked meseta as an excuse. Now while Dulk Fakis S is obscenely difficult to make money off of with just the mission reward, you should be able to profit on a regular basis on something as relatively easy as Crimson Beast.

I'm soryy if the rest of you dont, but whining about people not having so called skills or dying too much or the game's to easy isn't helping anyone, and its insulting to alot of players who only died cause of bad bad luck.
And the point that you aren't seeing is that your "bad bad luck" is FAR worse than average, and thus you should be able to improve it with some playstyle changes. But if you're unwilling to do so, have fun being broke.

Sychosis

Jun 29, 2007, 07:54 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:41, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-06-29 15:34, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-06-29 15:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-06-29 13:21, Sychosis wrote:
While we're at it, lets reduce all PP costs on PAs to 0. I mean, you're just going to recharge it anyway, right? Also, everything should have 100% drop rates. C'mon, we're going to hunt it repeatedly anyway, we'll eventually get it, might as well make it faster so I can enjoy the game more, yeah?

Skill and Gun PAs were effectively free in PSO. Just sayin...

In a game where meseta was worthless to begin with...

that was not your original point. nor my counter point.

Then your point is...?

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 07:56 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:46, Kairi_Li wrote:
Trouble is the whiners are all "every man for himself" people, and that each person is responsible for having scapes or healing themselves.

How about some team work involved in KILLING those jarbas? Did you know my boyfriend ended up S-ing Urgent Oders A WITHOUT a goddamn force? How you ask? TEAM WORK. The fighgunners were drawing their fire, the heavey duty attackers spam them from behind. There was alot of damage dealt and fire drawing that the Jarbas didnt even get to use ANY spells.

Maybe people should think on THAT type of skill instead of individual ones.

Though I bet their so called skills involved strafing around the jarab and do lil damage with their handguns, and let other more gutsy players to actually axe them in the face. Then due to bad luck they get hit by megid, or frozen to death, and peope cuss them out and say they suck.

And cheap armours are sold fast and quickly. And since armours are so hard to synth, they won't come cheap most of the time. You got LUCKY.

[ This Message was edited by: Kairi_Li on 2007-06-29 17:50 ]

Figunners should be tornado dancing jarbas into stunlck

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 07:59 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:54, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-06-29 17:41, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-06-29 15:34, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-06-29 15:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-06-29 13:21, Sychosis wrote:
While we're at it, lets reduce all PP costs on PAs to 0. I mean, you're just going to recharge it anyway, right? Also, everything should have 100% drop rates. C'mon, we're going to hunt it repeatedly anyway, we'll eventually get it, might as well make it faster so I can enjoy the game more, yeah?

Skill and Gun PAs were effectively free in PSO. Just sayin...

In a game where meseta was worthless to begin with...

that was not your original point. nor my counter point.

Then your point is...?

That... I am really your father Scy... and that... he is really your mother...

F-Gattaca

Jun 29, 2007, 08:00 PM

I like the way you think. I think making PSU's missions objective-based could well be just what the doctor ordered for this kind of thing.

Technically the current missions do have objectives, but they're always "kill all enemies in this area" or "destroy the core" ...

SEGA will have to make unique missions attractive and accessible all the time though, not ones that are for a limited time only.

Operation: Firebreak was a massively welcome break (no pun intended) from the rest of PSU's gameplay that encourages this "s-rank or gtfo" mindset we're seeing in this thread. Only problem is ... we only had it for a limited time and we HAD to run it all the time if we wanted any of the rewards, so by the end nearly everyone was sick of purifying zoomas.

Personally, I want to see some more missions involving defense/escort. Protect a certain important objective--such as an outpost or crash site--for a set amount of time, or escort some sort of convoy moving through a dangerous area (preferrably on its own path, not like the story mode escort missions where your VIP follows you like the restof the team).

I think it'd work to some degree, as long as team deaths weren't penalized.

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 08:03 PM

Buying scapes means when you die you are taking your own resources for your own actions/badluck/etc

Using moons and giresta means other people take account for your actions which COULD encourage a lot more people to have the "Rambo" mentality and charge into battle more recklessly expecting people to revive them. Then you'll go from the scape doll snobs to the Moon or Giresta snobs!

Forces have enough to pay for recharging PP for the current techs they use, having to pay for the huge Giresta cost is gonna make forces coplain about fortefighter and lets face it, my fellow fighgunners that think they are bad enough to solo Fakis on S while the party is there to admire their "skill".....

You guys are arguing about replacing one snob for another and replacing your burden on party members... That isn't teamwork, it's placing your responsibility on other people! I offer to buy scape dolls for people that are out, or low, if they just ask. That is teamwork. Supplying a member in a time of need, not baby sitting a person that needs reserected 24/7. Buying a scape should be your DUTY to the party's reward. If you can't afford it then tell your party and if they can't help by buying you some then can help by watching your back.

Teamwork cannot be enforced if you have players that will not be team players. That why bruce runs fizzled out, too many people could not function in a team. Everyone that thinks scape dolls are a hassle now will be the ones spending more money later to keep irresponsible players alive to save their mission rewards later....

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 08:06 PM

On 2007-06-29 18:03, XDeviousX wrote:
Buying scapes means when you die you are taking your own resources for your own actions/badluck/etc

Using moons and giresta means other people take account for your actions which COULD encourage a lot more people to have the "Rambo" mentality and charge into battle more recklessly expecting people to revive them. Then you'll go from the scape doll snobs to the Moon or Giresta snobs!

Forces have enough to pay for recharging PP for the current techs they use, having to pay for the huge Giresta cost is gonna make forces coplain about fortefighter and lets face it, my fellow fighgunners that think they are bad enough to solo Fakis on S while the party is there to admire their "skill".....

You guys are arguing about replacing one snob for another and replacing your burden on party members... That isn't teamwork, it's placing your responsibility on other people! I offer to buy scape dolls for people that are out, or low, if they just ask. That is teamwork. Supplying a member in a time of need, not baby sitting a person that needs reserected 24/7. Buying a scape should be your DUTY to the party's reward. If you can't afford it then tell your party and if they can't help by buying you some then can help by watching your back.

Teamwork cannot be enforced if you have players that will not be team players. That why bruce runs fizzled out, too many people could not function in a team. Everyone that thinks scape dolls are a hassle now will be the ones spending more money later to keep irresponsible players alive to save their mission rewards later....

QFT

Jun 29, 2007, 08:07 PM

Do the 360 players STILL think there is an abundance of haxeta on our servers? lol

McLaughlin

Jun 29, 2007, 08:18 PM

I think a mod should edit the topic title to say "So, they didn't fix change it?"

The system never was "broken" by any literal meaning of the word. It works just as $T wanted it to. to insinuate it needed fixing would be implying that fundamentally, the system is flawed for punishing a player who dies. Every other RPG I know of penalizes the player for dieing, so why is Sonic Team being hammered on for it?

There are far bigger fish to fry in Gurhal people.

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 08:21 PM

In other words stop dyin without scapes plzkthxbai

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 08:43 PM

Buying scapes means when you die you are taking your own resources for your own actions/badluck/etc

Right now it does because there is no benefit to resurrecting people.

Using moons and giresta means other people take account for your actions which COULD encourage a lot more people to have the "Rambo" mentality and charge into battle more recklessly expecting people to revive them. Then you'll go from the scape doll snobs to the Moon or Giresta snobs!

That is completely retarded. You're skewing things to agree with your own point.

Forces have enough to pay for recharging PP for the current techs they use, having to pay for the huge Giresta cost is gonna make forces coplain about fortefighter and lets face it, my fellow fighgunners that think they are bad enough to solo Fakis on S while the party is there to admire their "skill".....

You guys are arguing about replacing one snob for another and replacing your burden on party members... That isn't teamwork, it's placing your responsibility on other people! I offer to buy scape dolls for people that are out, or low, if they just ask. That is teamwork. Supplying a member in a time of need, not baby sitting a person that needs reserected 24/7. Buying a scape should be your DUTY to the party's reward. If you can't afford it then tell your party and if they can't help by buying you some then can help by watching your back.

Teamwork cannot be enforced if you have players that will not be team players. That why bruce runs fizzled out, too many people could not function in a team. Everyone that thinks scape dolls are a hassle now will be the ones spending more money later to keep irresponsible players alive to save their mission rewards later....

Are you done being a broken record, yet? Seriously, Devious. Your point about the freaking Scapes is taken. You've posted it no less than 4 times and possibly more than that.

Teamwork is cooperating, supporting and not being a burden on eachother. Nobody has EVER. At ANY time, suggested that burdening the team was 'teamwork'. But a team does have to support its indivudal members, or it is not a team.

People reviving eachother is teamwork because it shows a genuine care about the individual members' welfare in order to accomplish the overall purpose of the team. Exploiting that support and cooperation to put the effort on everyone else's backs instead of yours is NOT and never has been implied to be, in any of my posts, teamwork. For that, there is the boot button. You can enforce teamwork if necessary, unlike PSO where if somebody joined your game you had to either live with it or leave.

Simply dying without Scapes is NOT burdening the party except under the current, poorly designed system. Stuff freaking happens. People shouldn't be callously singled out for that.

You have demonstrated again and again that you do not read what people say and instead, just drone on the same point over and over whether it's relevent or not. Go on being a broken record, your posts fall on deaf ears from here on.

Technically the current missions do have objectives, but they're always "kill all enemies in this area" or "destroy the core" ...

SEGA will have to make unique missions attractive and accessible all the time though, not ones that are for a limited time only.

Operation: Firebreak was a massively welcome break (no pun intended) from the rest of PSU's gameplay that encourages this "s-rank or gtfo" mindset we're seeing in this thread. Only problem is ... we only had it for a limited time and we HAD to run it all the time if we wanted any of the rewards, so by the end nearly everyone was sick of purifying zoomas.

Personally, I want to see some more missions involving defense/escort. Protect a certain important objective--such as an outpost or crash site--for a set amount of time, or escort some sort of convoy moving through a dangerous area (preferrably on its own path, not like the story mode escort missions where your VIP follows you like the restof the team).

I think it'd work to some degree, as long as team deaths weren't penalized.

I think even 'kill all enemies' and 'destroy the core' missions can be made reasonably objective based though. Just make an overall objective (Get to X spot) and make that objective have to be met with everyone alive and not having respawned in town. From there, side objectives like killing all monsters can be completed to contribute towards your reward.

I think there should be more escort missions, too. Particularly ones with more complex goals. The online story mode has missions with a variety of goals. I think we could expect this from more than two free/co-op/party missions, too.

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 08:47 PM

On 2007-06-29 18:43, Reipard wrote

Simply dying without Scapes is NOT burdening the party except under the current, poorly designed system. Stuff freaking happens. People shouldn't be callously singled out for that.

Yes... it IS burdening the party, because that specific player is being CHEAP. I can understand entirely at lower levels, but its pretty much arguing that you shouldn't have to be singled out for dying just because you didn't feel like wasting your money.

There is no way you can pretty this up. People are just being cheapasses. Plain and simple.

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 08:49 PM

Yes... it IS burdening the party, because that specific player is being CHEAP. I can understand entirely at lower levels, but its pretty much arguing that you shouldn't have to be singled out for dying just because you didn't feel like wasting your money.

There is no way you can pretty this up. People are just being cheapasses. Plain and simple.

Do you have any sort of reading comprehension whatsoever?

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 08:54 PM

On 2007-06-29 18:43, Reipard wrote:

Buying scapes means when you die you are taking your own resources for your own actions/badluck/etc

Right now it does because there is no benefit to resurrecting people.

Using moons and giresta means other people take account for your actions which COULD encourage a lot more people to have the "Rambo" mentality and charge into battle more recklessly expecting people to revive them. Then you'll go from the scape doll snobs to the Moon or Giresta snobs!

That is completely retarded. You're skewing things to agree with your own point.

Forces have enough to pay for recharging PP for the current techs they use, having to pay for the huge Giresta cost is gonna make forces coplain about fortefighter and lets face it, my fellow fighgunners that think they are bad enough to solo Fakis on S while the party is there to admire their "skill".....

You guys are arguing about replacing one snob for another and replacing your burden on party members... That isn't teamwork, it's placing your responsibility on other people! I offer to buy scape dolls for people that are out, or low, if they just ask. That is teamwork. Supplying a member in a time of need, not baby sitting a person that needs reserected 24/7. Buying a scape should be your DUTY to the party's reward. If you can't afford it then tell your party and if they can't help by buying you some then can help by watching your back.

Teamwork cannot be enforced if you have players that will not be team players. That why bruce runs fizzled out, too many people could not function in a team. Everyone that thinks scape dolls are a hassle now will be the ones spending more money later to keep irresponsible players alive to save their mission rewards later....

Are you done being a broken record, yet? Seriously, Devious. Your point about the freaking Scapes is taken. You've posted it no less than 4 times and possibly more than that.

Teamwork is cooperating, supporting and not being a burden on eachother. Nobody has EVER. At ANY time, suggested that burdening the team was 'teamwork'. But a team does have to support its indivudal members, or it is not a team.

People reviving eachother is teamwork because it shows a genuine care about the individual members' welfare in order to accomplish the overall purpose of the team. Exploiting that support and cooperation to put the effort on everyone else's backs instead of yours is NOT and never has been implied to be, in any of my posts, teamwork. For that, there is the boot button. You can enforce teamwork if necessary, unlike PSO where if somebody joined your game you had to either live with it or leave.

Simply dying without Scapes is NOT burdening the party except under the current, poorly designed system. Stuff freaking happens. People shouldn't be callously singled out for that.

You have demonstrated again and again that you do not read what people say and instead, just drone on the same point over and over whether it's relevent or not. Go on being a broken record, your posts fall on deaf ears from here on.

Technically the current missions do have objectives, but they're always "kill all enemies in this area" or "destroy the core" ...

SEGA will have to make unique missions attractive and accessible all the time though, not ones that are for a limited time only.

Operation: Firebreak was a massively welcome break (no pun intended) from the rest of PSU's gameplay that encourages this "s-rank or gtfo" mindset we're seeing in this thread. Only problem is ... we only had it for a limited time and we HAD to run it all the time if we wanted any of the rewards, so by the end nearly everyone was sick of purifying zoomas.

Personally, I want to see some more missions involving defense/escort. Protect a certain important objective--such as an outpost or crash site--for a set amount of time, or escort some sort of convoy moving through a dangerous area (preferrably on its own path, not like the story mode escort missions where your VIP follows you like the restof the team).

I think it'd work to some degree, as long as team deaths weren't penalized.

I think even 'kill all enemies' and 'destroy the core' missions can be made reasonably objective based though. Just make an overall objective (Get to X spot) and make that objective have to be met with everyone alive and not having respawned in town. From there, side objectives like killing all monsters can be completed to contribute towards your reward.

I think there should be more escort missions, too. Particularly ones with more complex goals. The online story mode has missions with a variety of goals. I think we could expect this from more than two free/co-op/party missions, too.

You have made your points as many times as I have without me insulting you...

Saving people from death to save your own reward isn't teamwork, it's still you sacing another person for your own gain. I am fow mission requirements that would allow people to work as a team, but in the current system you would be switching the responsibility for the death penalty from each player taking account for themselves to the team taking account for you. That is not a stretch, it is a fact of how things work. The same way that there are responsible people using the scape doll system and irresponible people will be the same with moons and giresta. You are foling yourself if you think force types won't complain about the burden of mission rewards be put MAINLY on them and that some people won't act more irresponsible. Most people don't go gung-ho now because 5k for scaoes does add up if you are acting in a way to have to restock 24/7. Moons can and will add up too in the long run. The only way to add teamwork to the game is to put obsticles into the missions that are meant for each player type to be strong in AND make objectives that require team effort, besides switches... Until then switching from scapes to moons is putting a band-aid on a shotgun wound.

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 08:54 PM

Why yes, yes I do. With the current system we have right now,(just as you pointed out earlier), players who are cheap burden the overall rank of the party upon death. So the cheap and or greedie players think it's a good idea not to be panelized for their stubborness by rather than changing the way they play, having the game change for them.

Am I right so far?

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 08:56 PM

The mind set pretty much is, "If I die, the Moon won't be money out of my pocket like a Scape Would."

To be honest, I really don't wish to waste my moons on those type of players that seem to die 4-5 times per RUN.

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 09:02 PM

Why yes, yes I do. With the current system we have right now,(just as you pointed out earlier), players who are cheap burden the overall rank of the party upon death.

Yes. And I will point out that nobody in this thread has ever disputed that particular point.

So the cheap and or greedie players think it's a good idea not to be panelized for their stubborness by rather than changing the way they play, having the game change for them.

Am I right so far?

No, you are not. I have already explained why the death penalty pretty much serves no purpose whatsoever in the current game earlier in this thread, so I will not reiterate that for you. All Sega is doing is patching their flawed mechanic for now (until hopefully, they revise the approach for the better).

Both systems suck, but the system under no death penalty is a better option since it removes the social stigma attached to deaths and encourages people to further help eachother.

I am also not going to reiterate why this will not encourage people to start burdening the team by half-assing their efforts. Regardless, it is up to people to moderate their teams. If someone wants that idler around, then who cares if they keep them around? You can go start your own team and boot for no Scapes, should the need arise.

And I am not implying that you would do that, either. I am only making an example for the sake of example.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 19:04 ]

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 09:05 PM

So i'm not right? So lets see... players DON'T think its a good idea to be penalized then for not buying scapes, and thinking the game should change the system rather than them just biting the bullet and biting a scape?

Well then if that's the case, I guess no change has to be implimented. Thanks for letting me know I was wrong for thinking this. I apologize for my foolhearty thoughts.

[ This Message was edited by: Lonzell on 2007-06-29 19:05 ]

XDeviousX

Jun 29, 2007, 09:07 PM

Also in the other system you refer to it's not like every force will have Giresta, or their won't be people to cheap or irresponsible to by moons... Its not like buying moon atomizers will help teamwork. The people working as a team will not increase with this switch. Irresponsible or cheap players will not become team players because they "don't" have to buy scapes...

Most people that want a good reward will still buy scapes dolls and insult people that die and "mooch" offf of other people's rewards by making them use moons or giresta. This is not an upgrade, just a shift to the left. If you advocate teamwork so much you'd actually understand I agreed with you on some levels, you are stuck trying to prove me wrong instead of actually seeing what I mean... (Directed at Reipard)

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-06-29 19:08 ]

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 09:10 PM

I'm just glad we have the kick function to get rid of those that rather mooch off of other players rather being benefical to the overall preformance of the team.

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 09:11 PM

So i'm not right? So lets see... players DON'T think its a good idea to be penalized then for not buying scapes, and thinking the game should change the system rather than them just biting the bullet and biting a scape?

O...kay, then apparently I thought you were implying something more relevant than that.

Now I am not sure what you are trying to prove that is particularly relevant to the whole topic. You think people are happy about this because they're cheap stingies that like to burden every party they join?

I don't think that is the case, quite frankly. It's just a flawed, unforgiving mechanic that doesn't do what it sets out for and everyone is happy that the game won't revolve around them paying to be effectively immortal just to appease everyone.

And I'm sure the people you refer to aren't skimping on Scapes anyway. You pretty much can't in this system or nobody will party with you.

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 09:21 PM

On 2007-06-29 19:11, Reipard wrote:

So i'm not right? So lets see... players DON'T think its a good idea to be penalized then for not buying scapes, and thinking the game should change the system rather than them just biting the bullet and biting a scape?

O...kay, then apparently I thought you were implying something more relevant than that.

Now I am not sure what you are trying to prove that is particularly relevant to the whole topic. You think people are happy about this because they're cheap stingies that like to burden every party they join?

I don't think that is the case, quite frankly. It's just a flawed, unforgiving mechanic that doesn't do what it sets out for and everyone is happy that the game won't revolve around them paying to be effectively immortal just to appease everyone.

And I'm sure the people you refer to aren't skimping on Scapes anyway. You pretty much can't in this system or nobody will party with you.

Actually what i'm implying is pretty relevent. The entire issue that has to do with 'creating better team work' ect. is sort of what I like to call a 'pipe dream'. The entire issue that people want it is as simplistic as saving the meseta in their pockets. Nothing more, nothing less.

Any other explinations is making it out to be way more deeper than it really is.

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 09:26 PM

One more thing i'd like to add. The only reason I'm even talking about this, is because its a pet peeve of mine when people don't own up to their own mishaps and short comings. Rather than doing that, they prefer to blame it on something else. In this case it'd be the 'game mechanics', and the 'other players'. When 5 players in a team are doing just fine doing things one way, not dying, and having a fair amount of scapes on them, and then you have 1 player dying multiple times that thinks its a waste to spend his money on a single scape doll or 2, it goes without saying that maybe... just maybe... that player should just bite the bullet...?

Naaaw... of course not... he's right, those other 5 players are just idiots, and the game just needs to change to suit his money saving playstyle.

Reipard

Jun 29, 2007, 09:28 PM

Actually what i'm implying is pretty relevent. The entire issue that has to do with 'creating better team work' ect. is sort of what I like to call a 'pipe dream'. The entire issue that people want it is as simplistic as saving the meseta in their pockets. Nothing more, nothing less.

Any other explinations is making it out to be way more deeper than it really is.

No, really. I don't understand. If what you say is true (and I am ignoring the post you edited after my response), then it all comes down to what I said initially in the first place, before all of this arguing.

The system needs to change at its core before real teamwork can become wholly possible. This is just a patch to encourage it more than the current system does, although it ultimately does not fix the problem.

Thank you, for challenging this point for pages just to prove it -_-.

Sigh. I have a headache. Bowing out.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-06-29 19:30 ]

F-Gattaca

Jun 29, 2007, 09:28 PM

Hey, that new Neudaiz sample-collecting mission is every "s-rank or gtfo" lover's dream. The mission fails if you so much as die once, and you don't get to recover from death at all!

Lonzell

Jun 29, 2007, 09:33 PM

The system doesn't need to change. All that has to be done is for them to release more team based missions that have good rewards. People who are good at being team players for example, good friends can go and do these missions without the entire dynamics of the games needing some overhaul.

Jife_Jifremok

Jun 29, 2007, 11:47 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:24, Kairi_Li wrote:
Alot of people died from megid cause they're in a middle of a photon art, or frozen, or just plain bad luck, it happens, its got nothing to do with skills. Get over it.

These complainers don't read, they just want everyone to agree with them and using player skills as a poor excuse and shield. Or worst, to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Yeesh.

Yeah, I die a lot too. Megid, being frozen, being paralyzed...sometimes this is simply because I want to kill shit quickly and it doesn't quite go as planned. (Example: using a melee PA or shotgun blast on a jarba from behind, jarba turns while using dambarta and you get frozen.) Often it's just the game's shitty hit detection. (Often I see a dambarta coming, run away and still get hit despite not being near it. Other times it's a megid I sidestepped but still died from. Countless times I dodge a goldova ram but still end up paralyzed.) Sometimes it's some other part of the game's shitty design. (Like when a goldova teleports dangerously close to your position while ramming, making this ram completely unavoidable and haivng a chance for paralysis.) But I die most often simply because I get careless. This carelessness is born from me just not giving a flying fuck about "being good" at this game. And why should I?

This game hardly feels like it was designed to encourage player skill. The core gameplay was designed so that being able to use mates in a timely manner is often more important than not getting hit simply because it's usually a lot quicker (or at least feels a lot quicker) to attack carelessly or aggressively, get hit and heal as opposed to fighting cautiously and not getting hit at all.

Most deaths are caused by cheap shit. Instant kill, paralyze, freeze, some of hte shit I mentioned in the above paragraph...and this is simply because the game is designed so that all too often the enemy simply cannot kill you if you simply pop healing items the instant you're hit. The enemy pretty much needs to be cheap unless they can get in a combo quickly enough.

Hell, an incredibly effective way to kill enemies is to be a ranger or force and use rifles or bows from afar. Where's the skill in this, huh? A rifle's burn4 does more damage on large enemies (in S2 runs) than me double-hitting them with my shotgun blasts of the proper element. And gee I wonder which weapon requires more skill to use.

Oh, and to reduce the amount of damage you take you equip a shield line to match the element of the enemy. There is no skill involved in this whatsoever; the only thing that comes close to skill is if you root thorugh the menu often to change your armor when dealing with multiple enemy elements, and you are able to do this fast enough that it hardly detracts from your killing or dodging. The LUCKIER you are in acquiring the high elemental % shielding, the more damage can be prevented. And the EVP stat? Hey guess what, the higher your EVP the higher CHANCE you have of blocking the enemy attack. So much for skill there eh?

Yeah. If I wanna play a game for a challenge, I have Monster Hunter and more well-designed offline games than I can count. PSU doesn't even give you rewards for not fucking up, rare items are just given to you on a silver platter entirely by chance.

F-Gattaca

Jun 30, 2007, 12:18 AM

Often it's just the game's shitty hit detection. (Often I see a dambarta coming, run away and still get hit despite not being near it. Other times it's a megid I sidestepped but still died from. Countless times I dodge a goldova ram but still end up paralyzed.)

I think that's more lag than hit detection. I recently noticed in Extra Mode, playing around out of curiosity and boredom, that you can dodge things MUCH easier.

For this game, you have to mentally place everything a few seconds ahead of what you're seeing. (Warning: Subtle topic change approaching!)

That's partially why I think the only people who can effectively S-rank 1 HP challenges tend to be Ranger-type classes--as you said, they can equip rifles and bows for ranged combat vs. slower melee targets, and crossbows/machineguns/twin handguns for everything else (so they can get out of the way of a Megid strike without having to exit FPV and run like with bows and rifles ... by the time you do that, you'll likely get struck anyway).

Force-types should be able to do 1 HP challenges with a Quick unit, focusing on ranged techs.

Hunters ... nah. They're meant to get up in a mob's grill and trade blow for blow. Even if you're fleet footed and can skillfully weave around to the backside of a monster, some other mob is going to get a hit in eventually, because you have to wade into mob formations.

Take me, for instance. I'm a FG/FI/GT, but I don't often play to the strengths of my class. I get in there and I mix it up, and that's how I have fun. The Capped CASTs Crew can back me up on this--I'm sure they've seen me charge into an enemy formation, going wild with my daggers, backing off, hosing the group down with my SMGs, keeping the pressure on. (That is, of course, when I'm not obsessed with leveling PAs ... Thrice cursed grenade launcher!)

Between evenly using my SMGs and my daggers, I'm not playing my type "correctly" in order to avoid dying, and I couldn't give a damn. I get hit often. I have my own share of knockouts. Often times it happens when, because of the position I put myself in--in the seconds taken recovering from using a PA, I can get tagged on the ass by a foie or a megid and be down for the count.

Of course, there are many times when I don't die at all--even on SEED Awakened S. More than once I got through SEED Awakened S, not realizing that I had no scapes, and didn't die.

Anyway ... point I'm starting to get at with this is--certain playstyles can avoid getting hit--and dying--more so than others. NOT just types, but the way that type is played. Lag can also play a factor. A "bad" player that the complainters chastize might actually just be a laggy one, or one who suffers from a slow computer.

nikkou

Jun 30, 2007, 12:26 AM

First off, being an FT the only change I see being reasonable at all is having Giresta equal the scape effect. Giresta takes forever to collect the PA Frags to get, and consequently, easily sets the few people capable of spending the huge amount of time to even cast it in the first place as being "special enough to do the resurrection without penalty." Other than that, how is everything not fine?

I really don't see the big deal about the way things are being that much of a problem, tbh. At least in this world we don't really ever seem to "die the true death" as it were. The only reason scapes become a problem are with incessant mission grinding on missions with Jarbae (such as CB...)

Even in this area, in my playing i have found most people willing to pitch in to make sure whoever gets hit hardest has the scapes to begin with.

Okay, here's something interesting I have found out about MMOs and their economies. Every economy needs a money sink. If the money sinks are not large enough, the economy deflates, and there are huge differences in abilities of individuals to afford either EVERYTHING or NOTHING. Seems that there has always been an economy problem for the PSU players; many of the players of years ago seem to be loaded to the gills (wether all the money distributed back and forth was generated legitimately or not, at this point, is moot) and people such as myself who started playing relatively recently have had to rely on the generousity of others in order to have so much of the great gear and pizazz that i've had built or found at "mistake level" prices. And still, I have to totally concentrate the whole time to not die in missions because, saving firebreak missions, the real money seems to be at the end of missions I cannot yet go on (S2), and ive gone broke on scapes a million times.

The meseta charge for weapon charging before each mission is hardly enough of a sink. Scapes begin to approach a reasonably good money sink, as you could easily blow 250k in an evening trying to run S/S2 missions. Clothing and weapons (from stores) are a reasonably *decent* sink, though they're only a decent sink until you get to the level that you're no longer buying more. Player shops are not a sink at all because it keeps the money in circulation. Losing A-class weapons during grinding? Very effective sink. Those mother scratchers cost a boatload. Spend a 3-lucky day breaking majimras and you'll see what i'm talking about.

I guess my point is, in some circumlocutious way is that losing the scape dolls is highly detrimental to the economy of the whole game, and much more than giving Giresta a Scape Flag would probably be a bad idea.

Powder Keg

Jun 30, 2007, 01:56 AM

Let's look at the facts here:

1. Scapes are expensive as hell. They add up.

2. If you can't bring up your pallette and use a moon on a teamate a few times, you're incredibly fat and lazy. I won't blame you for booting a player in an S or higher run for not briniging any scapes though...someone at that level should know by now...especially if you mention it.

3. How the death penalty works now is stupid. Obviously, the game is meant to be team oriented, but you do not ALWAYS have the ability or the chance to help someone who was either stupid or caught in a bad situation. Why is the entire team penalized for this? If it were just the player, it would be perfect.

4. As it is now, Moons and Giresta are basically useless, because it's necessary to carry scapes all the time.

Lonzell

Jun 30, 2007, 02:23 AM

If you don't wanna spend much on scapes, then stop dyin' so much. Jesus christ, i'm a figunner, and outside of doing Dark Falz, I don't die nearly enough for it to burn a huge hole in my pocket. Wtf do you guys do that gets you killed so much? I think its less of the game, and more of crappy connections that are getting you killed.

XDeviousX

Jun 30, 2007, 02:55 AM

On 2007-06-29 23:56, Artea wrote:
Let's look at the facts here:

1. Scapes are expensive as hell. They add up.

2. If you can't bring up your pallette and use a moon on a teamate a few times, you're incredibly fat and lazy. I won't blame you for booting a player in an S or higher run for not briniging any scapes though...someone at that level should know by now...especially if you mention it.

3. How the death penalty works now is stupid. Obviously, the game is meant to be team oriented, but you do not ALWAYS have the ability or the chance to help someone who was either stupid or caught in a bad situation. Why is the entire team penalized for this? If it were just the player, it would be perfect.

4. As it is now, Moons and Giresta are basically useless, because it's necessary to carry scapes all the time.

Moons are used best on boss fights when you have run out of scapes and you cannot teleport back into the fight. The cost of scapes has never been an issue for me or most of the people I play with, but synthing has been. I've gone poor trying to synth 3 or 4 weapons over 80% and they all fail...

If you are doing a run where you are dying a lot because you're not equiped right, or have a bad internet connection, etc then you should take the consequence for doing thta mission. There are a ton of missions with good rewards where you won't die, and even Crimson Beast can be reset to a Jab-less map!!

I have no idea why people burn through so many scapes. I play the same s and s2 mission, with a reletively crappy connection and I'm lucky to die three times in a day much less in a single run... I do Jab heavey missions a lot as well. I gues I'm smart enough to stay out of melee range and use a ranged weapon with good mobility so I can dodge, or use a melee PA with stun lock when the party hs the numbers over the Jabs...

Its funny how someone said people that can't buy moons on the new system are bad team players when people that can't buy scapes are worse. Buying a scape doll is self containment, buying moons is like baby sitting... Either way you are not creating teamwork with this change. If you want teamwork their needs to be a better system of mission requirements....

nikkou

Jun 30, 2007, 03:33 AM

....hence why i suggest that giresta gets a scape flag....

Soukosa

Jun 30, 2007, 05:06 AM

All of this arguing over dying in a video game? How about you all go out and get some fresh air?

If you're so bothered by noobs dying so much then how about you don't play with them? Make some good friends and play them. Back on PSO we no penalities for dying and everyone was just find and dandy. Made the game rather enjoyable as well since there was no stress factor from that. What makes PSU any different? If you want a more hardcore game than go play something else that was designed for that. Hey, go play RO, die, and lose a couple hours of your fucking life because that's how long it took to gain the 1% exp you just lost because the server farted, causing you to die.

Mayu

Jun 30, 2007, 05:32 AM

Pretend that

You get no rewards http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

and dying will be ok http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Nai_Calus

Jun 30, 2007, 06:19 AM

Yeah, what the hell? Fresh air. Good for you. Real problems. Worth worrying about.

You know, back on PSO GC, we had no real death penalty, and people still learned how to play well just because they wanted to excel. We've been here before, for the love of cheese, and somehow we survived. Get over it.

Shiro_Ryuu

Jun 30, 2007, 06:31 AM

On 2007-06-29 21:47, Jife_Jifremok wrote:

On 2007-06-29 17:24, Kairi_Li wrote:
Alot of people died from megid cause they're in a middle of a photon art, or frozen, or just plain bad luck, it happens, its got nothing to do with skills. Get over it.

These complainers don't read, they just want everyone to agree with them and using player skills as a poor excuse and shield. Or worst, to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Yeesh.

Yeah, I die a lot too. Megid, being frozen, being paralyzed...sometimes this is simply because I want to kill shit quickly and it doesn't quite go as planned. (Example: using a melee PA or shotgun blast on a jarba from behind, jarba turns while using dambarta and you get frozen.) Often it's just the game's shitty hit detection. (Often I see a dambarta coming, run away and still get hit despite not being near it. Other times it's a megid I sidestepped but still died from. Countless times I dodge a goldova ram but still end up paralyzed.) Sometimes it's some other part of the game's shitty design. (Like when a goldova teleports dangerously close to your position while ramming, making this ram completely unavoidable and haivng a chance for paralysis.) But I die most often simply because I get careless. This carelessness is born from me just not giving a flying fuck about "being good" at this game. And why should I?

This game hardly feels like it was designed to encourage player skill. The core gameplay was designed so that being able to use mates in a timely manner is often more important than not getting hit simply because it's usually a lot quicker (or at least feels a lot quicker) to attack carelessly or aggressively, get hit and heal as opposed to fighting cautiously and not getting hit at all.

Most deaths are caused by cheap shit. Instant kill, paralyze, freeze, some of hte shit I mentioned in the above paragraph...and this is simply because the game is designed so that all too often the enemy simply cannot kill you if you simply pop healing items the instant you're hit. The enemy pretty much needs to be cheap unless they can get in a combo quickly enough.

Hell, an incredibly effective way to kill enemies is to be a ranger or force and use rifles or bows from afar. Where's the skill in this, huh? A rifle's burn4 does more damage on large enemies (in S2 runs) than me double-hitting them with my shotgun blasts of the proper element. And gee I wonder which weapon requires more skill to use.

Oh, and to reduce the amount of damage you take you equip a shield line to match the element of the enemy. There is no skill involved in this whatsoever; the only thing that comes close to skill is if you root thorugh the menu often to change your armor when dealing with multiple enemy elements, and you are able to do this fast enough that it hardly detracts from your killing or dodging. The LUCKIER you are in acquiring the high elemental % shielding, the more damage can be prevented. And the EVP stat? Hey guess what, the higher your EVP the higher CHANCE you have of blocking the enemy attack. So much for skill there eh?

Yeah. If I wanna play a game for a challenge, I have Monster Hunter and more well-designed offline games than I can count. PSU doesn't even give you rewards for not fucking up, rare items are just given to you on a silver platter entirely by chance.

QFT, I agree with every single word. You're becoming one of my favorite posters after just two posts I've read from you.

Sounomi wrote:
All of this arguing over dying in a video game? How about you all go out and get some fresh air?

If you're so bothered by noobs dying so much then how about you don't play with them? Make some good friends and play them. Back on PSO we no penalities for dying and everyone was just find and dandy. Made the game rather enjoyable as well since there was no stress factor from that. What makes PSU any different? If you want a more hardcore game than go play something else that was designed for that. Hey, go play RO, die, and lose a couple hours of your fucking life because that's how long it took to gain the 1% exp you just lost because the server farted, causing you to die.

You already ARE one of my favorite posters here. Again, QFT

Sekani

Jun 30, 2007, 07:17 AM

On 2007-06-30 03:06, Sounomi wrote:
All of this arguing over dying in a video game? How about you all go out and get some fresh air?

If you're so bothered by noobs dying so much then how about you don't play with them? Make some good friends and play them. Back on PSO we no penalities for dying and everyone was just find and dandy. Made the game rather enjoyable as well since there was no stress factor from that. What makes PSU any different? If you want a more hardcore game than go play something else that was designed for that. Hey, go play RO, die, and lose a couple hours of your fucking life because that's how long it took to gain the 1% exp you just lost because the server farted, causing you to die.

Next time you start ranting over melee acrotechers, remind yourself to go out and get some fresh air as well.

Back to the point, this isn't PSO. PSO did not grade your performance at the end of every block and give you a reward based on that performance. PSU does. The death penalty requires us to care when people are careless like Jife_Jiremok or extremely unlucky like Kairi_Li, because the whole party takes a hit from it.

Of course, we could make things easier for those careless and unlucky players by removing the death penalty altogether, and thus hand them S-rank rewards of meseta, MP, and PA fragments on a silver platter. This is quite unfair to the majority of players who bother to NOT be careless, not to mention the feeling that the "S" grade actually means something.

Shiro_Ryuu

Jun 30, 2007, 07:40 AM

Well, an Acrotecher that does only melee is a pretty dumb idea, and it would be best off taking advantage of its high TP to use offensive magic, while still having some melee when needed, so Sounomi is right about that. And now, you have to take Jife's words into consideration. We get frozen Olgohmons, stunned by Vil de Bears, tornadoe'd by a bear or kagajiarabari because some idiot is using nades on them while I'm using Dus Daggas, Moubu Seiren Zan, or Spinning Break on them or something, or die because we can't kill an enemy fast enough because a worm casted Jellen on me and reduced my ATP, or a Gaozoran's Foie one-shots me while I'm wearing fire armor. Well, not everyone has 50% elemental armor of like every single element, some of us may have crummy connections that make us lag and slowdown, making us vulnerable to attacks, others may need to afk for a few minutes cuz we have issues irl like people calling us, food, or having to go to the bathroom. Srsly, I can't get you people and your hardcore attitudes.

Sekani

Jun 30, 2007, 08:22 AM

On 2007-06-30 05:40, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, an Acrotecher that does only melee is a pretty dumb idea, and it would be best off taking advantage of its high TP to use offensive magic, while still having some melee when needed, so Sounomi is right about that. And now, you have to take Jife's words into consideration. We get frozen Olgohmons, stunned by Vil de Bears, tornadoe'd by a bear or kagajiarabari because some idiot is using nades on them while I'm using Dus Daggas, Moubu Seiren Zan, or Spinning Break on them or something, or die because we can't kill an enemy fast enough because a worm casted Jellen on me and reduced my ATP, or a Gaozoran's Foie one-shots me while I'm wearing fire armor. Well, not everyone has 50% elemental armor of like every single element, some of us may have crummy connections that make us lag and slowdown, making us vulnerable to attacks, others may need to afk for a few minutes cuz we have issues irl like people calling us, food, or having to go to the bathroom. Srsly, I can't get you people and your hardcore attitudes.

*facepalm*

RuPiKa

Jun 30, 2007, 07:06 PM

I also believe, that death of players (not NPCs) sould count toward rank (boss battles for example) but, only on a fourth of the missons. Time to complete, level of task completed and kills would make it alot more interesting to play. It would certainly break up the grind of the game.

If it was just about deaths to mission rank we should all play the same type and class of char., and all be "winners". Because everyone knows, fortechers can't take a hit (Def less than 90 and limited armor choices)and they go through scapes faster. But, having to spend so much extra on scapes to protect everyones S rank. That's not a player skill issue and dosen't imply team work.

I believe why fire break was so successful is it gave us something different to do and work towards beside "No Scape your booted" game play.

[ This Message was edited by: RuPiKa on 2007-06-30 17:07 ]

[ This Message was edited by: RuPiKa on 2007-06-30 22:37 ]

Kairi_Li

Jun 30, 2007, 08:02 PM

On 2007-06-30 06:22, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-06-30 05:40, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, an Acrotecher that does only melee is a pretty dumb idea, and it would be best off taking advantage of its high TP to use offensive magic, while still having some melee when needed, so Sounomi is right about that. And now, you have to take Jife's words into consideration. We get frozen Olgohmons, stunned by Vil de Bears, tornadoe'd by a bear or kagajiarabari because some idiot is using nades on them while I'm using Dus Daggas, Moubu Seiren Zan, or Spinning Break on them or something, or die because we can't kill an enemy fast enough because a worm casted Jellen on me and reduced my ATP, or a Gaozoran's Foie one-shots me while I'm wearing fire armor. Well, not everyone has 50% elemental armor of like every single element, some of us may have crummy connections that make us lag and slowdown, making us vulnerable to attacks, others may need to afk for a few minutes cuz we have issues irl like people calling us, food, or having to go to the bathroom. Srsly, I can't get you people and your hardcore attitudes.

*facepalm*

Oh yeah, compelling response there. He made alot of valid ad good points and that's all you can say to that?

PALRAPPYS

Jun 30, 2007, 08:48 PM

If everyone wants to keep arguing about how PSU is so easy and all with the new penalty system...

Go and play another game. We've got tons of RPG's out there.

Or, like many others, frickin' deal with it.

Sekani

Jun 30, 2007, 09:05 PM

On 2007-06-30 18:02, Kairi_Li wrote:

Oh yeah, compelling response there. He made alot of valid ad good points and that's all you can say to that?

Valid and good points you say? Alrighty then, since you want my response so badly....

Well, an Acrotecher that does only melee is a pretty dumb idea, and it would be best off taking advantage of its high TP to use offensive magic, while still having some melee when needed, so Sounomi is right about that.
This is called kissing up to Sounomi. I was pointing out hypocrisy, no one cares about these details.

And now, you have to take Jife's words into consideration.
This is called failing at reading comprehension. Jife said himself that he dies more from carelessness than anything else, which Shiroryuu apparently overlooked.

We get frozen Olgohmons, stunned by Vil de Bears, tornadoe'd by a bear or kagajiarabari because some idiot is using nades on them while I'm using Dus Daggas, Moubu Seiren Zan, or Spinning Break on them or something,
This is called "shit happens", and is the reason you carry scape dolls: for insurance in case shit happens.

or die because we can't kill an enemy fast enough because a worm casted Jellen on me and reduced my ATP,
This is called "sucking". There's no way to sugarcoat it.

or a Gaozoran's Foie one-shots me while I'm wearing fire armor.
See "shit happens" above.

Well, not everyone has 50% elemental armor of like every single element,
This is called a lame excuse. I have shitty armor and still manage to not blow through scapes that often.

some of us may have crummy connections that make us lag and slowdown, making us vulnerable to attacks,
This is called another lame excuse. Quit playing on dial-up. The game says broadband connection required right on the box.

others may need to afk for a few minutes cuz we have issues irl like people calling us, food, or having to go to the bathroom.
This is called just fucking pathetic. You can't move your character out of harm's way before running to the bathroom?

Srsly, I can't get you people and your hardcore attitudes.
This is called a condescending last word because it's the cool thing to do on the internet.

Still see any valid points there? I see valid points made by Jife, Reipard, and Rupika, even if I don't totally agree with them. All I see from you and Shiroryuu is more whining about how we should all make the game easier to compensate for your inability to not suck.

Say whatever you want, I will not respond to anything else from either of you on this subject, because I doubt it will be worth any more of my time.

omegapirate2k

Jun 30, 2007, 09:30 PM

On 2007-06-30 19:05, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-06-30 18:02, Kairi_Li wrote:

Oh yeah, compelling response there. He made alot of valid ad good points and that's all you can say to that?

Valid and good points you say? Alrighty then, since you want my response so badly....

Well, an Acrotecher that does only melee is a pretty dumb idea, and it would be best off taking advantage of its high TP to use offensive magic, while still having some melee when needed, so Sounomi is right about that.
This is called kissing up to Sounomi. I was pointing out hypocrisy, no one cares about these details.

And now, you have to take Jife's words into consideration.
This is called failing at reading comprehension. Jife said himself that he dies more from carelessness than anything else, which Shiroryuu apparently overlooked.

We get frozen Olgohmons, stunned by Vil de Bears, tornadoe'd by a bear or kagajiarabari because some idiot is using nades on them while I'm using Dus Daggas, Moubu Seiren Zan, or Spinning Break on them or something,
This is called "shit happens", and is the reason you carry scape dolls: for insurance in case shit happens.

or die because we can't kill an enemy fast enough because a worm casted Jellen on me and reduced my ATP,
This is called "sucking". There's no way to sugarcoat it.

or a Gaozoran's Foie one-shots me while I'm wearing fire armor.
See "shit happens" above.

Well, not everyone has 50% elemental armor of like every single element,
This is called a lame excuse. I have shitty armor and still manage to not blow through scapes that often.

some of us may have crummy connections that make us lag and slowdown, making us vulnerable to attacks,
This is called another lame excuse. Quit playing on dial-up. The game says broadband connection required right on the box.

others may need to afk for a few minutes cuz we have issues irl like people calling us, food, or having to go to the bathroom.
This is called just fucking pathetic. You can't move your character out of harm's way before running to the bathroom?

Srsly, I can't get you people and your hardcore attitudes.
This is called a condescending last word because it's the cool thing to do on the internet.

Still see any valid points there? I see valid points made by Jife, Reipard, and Rupika, even if I don't totally agree with them. All I see from you and Shiroryuu is more whining about how we should all make the game easier to compensate for your inability to not suck.

Say whatever you want, I will not respond to anything else from either of you on this subject, because I doubt it will be worth any more of my time.

This is called epic win.

Mayu

Jun 30, 2007, 10:08 PM

It's time for another Stick figure action comic!

about dying http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif <.<

Primera

Jun 30, 2007, 11:12 PM

dooooooooooo it =p

Mayu

Jul 1, 2007, 12:47 AM

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w147/Ryuugu-Rena/Comicstrip2.png

Primera

Jul 1, 2007, 01:41 AM

lol Rena

Scion

Jul 1, 2007, 02:48 AM

Rofl, #1 Fighgunner in PSU? You shoulda called it "#1 d0ubl1s4b3r 1n d15 g4m3 LOLZ"

Kamica

Jul 1, 2007, 02:55 AM

This new death penalty is awesome. It is one step closer to making PSU as awesome as PSOGC was. Nobody thought that the lack of a death penalty in PSOGC was boring. people should consider it no different for this version either.

Jife_Jifremok

Jul 1, 2007, 03:25 AM

And now, you have to take Jife's words into consideration.

This is called failing at reading comprehension. Jife said himself that he dies more from carelessness than anything else, which Shiroryuu apparently overlooked.

You didn't take nearly as many words into consideration as Shiroryuu did, apparently.

-----
Yeah, I die a lot too. Megid, being frozen, being paralyzed...sometimes this is simply because I want to kill shit quickly and it doesn't quite go as planned. (Example: using a melee PA or shotgun blast on a jarba from behind, jarba turns while using dambarta and you get frozen.) Often it's just the game's shitty hit detection. (Often I see a dambarta coming, run away and still get hit despite not being near it. Other times it's a megid I sidestepped but still died from. Countless times I dodge a goldova ram but still end up paralyzed.) Sometimes it's some other part of the game's shitty design. (Like when a goldova teleports dangerously close to your position while ramming, making this ram completely unavoidable and haivng a chance for paralysis.) But I die most often simply because I get careless. This carelessness is born from me just not giving a flying fuck about "being good" at this game. And why should I?

This game hardly feels like it was designed to encourage player skill. The core gameplay was designed so that being able to use mates in a timely manner is often more important than not getting hit simply because it's usually a lot quicker (or at least feels a lot quicker) to attack carelessly or aggressively, get hit and heal as opposed to fighting cautiously and not getting hit at all.

Most deaths are caused by cheap shit. Instant kill, paralyze, freeze, some of the shit I mentioned in the above paragraph...and this is simply because the game is designed so that all too often the enemy simply cannot kill you if you simply pop healing items the instant you're hit. The enemy pretty much needs to be cheap unless they can get in a combo quickly enough.
-----

The cheapness in most of the deaths is a big part of why I stopped giving two shits about using skill. When I used to give a shit, cheap deaths were the bulk of my used-up scapes, not careless deaths. I don't like using too much skill to compensate for a game's numerous glaring flaws.

[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2007-07-01 01:32 ]

pRoJeCtFaMe

Jul 1, 2007, 03:38 AM

On 2007-06-30 22:47, Ryuugu-Rena wrote:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w147/Ryuugu-Rena/Comicstrip2.png

OMG this is noobs in a comic!..lol

shoulda added lvl 80 on the top of him.. >=)
theres a lot of them running around anyways.

Sekani

Jul 1, 2007, 09:05 AM

On 2007-07-01 01:25, Jife_Jifremok wrote:

The cheapness in most of the deaths is a big part of why I stopped giving two shits about using skill. When I used to give a shit, cheap deaths were the bulk of my used-up scapes, not careless deaths. I don't like using too much skill to compensate for a game's numerous glaring flaws.

Cheap deaths are the bulk of everyone's scapes I'm sure, including my own. Just yesterday I had another controller-smashing experience with a Kamatoze's dambarta. I have to disagree with just about everything you said beyond that though.

Part of the challenge of the game is minimizing the number of cheap deaths you have while at the same time maximizing your effectiveness in a party situation. I still care about meeting this challenge because the game rewards you for doing so, and my broke ass needs the meseta. There is sort of a balancing act you have to perform with scape dolls in these situations. If you don't use them and die, then the party's reward is decreased. If you use too many, then you're not making a profit.

I don't feel that avoiding deaths, even the cheap ones, is extraordinarily difficult. So when the death penalty is removed, I'm sure you'll all rejoice because you can run face first into a megid and no one will care, but where's the challenge in obtaining an S-rank? It's going to really cheapen the accomplishment, and that's what I don't like.

Lonzell

Jul 1, 2007, 11:35 AM

lol n00bs, if you used Double Sabers more often you wouldn't have half as nearly deaths with a Kamatoze's dambarta.

Jife_Jifremok

Jul 1, 2007, 05:49 PM

On 2007-07-01 07:05, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-07-01 01:25, Jife_Jifremok wrote:

The cheapness in most of the deaths is a big part of why I stopped giving two shits about using skill. When I used to give a shit, cheap deaths were the bulk of my used-up scapes, not careless deaths. I don't like using too much skill to compensate for a game's numerous glaring flaws.

Cheap deaths are the bulk of everyone's scapes I'm sure, including my own. Just yesterday I had another controller-smashing experience with a Kamatoze's dambarta. I have to disagree with just about everything you said beyond that though.

Part of the challenge of the game is minimizing the number of cheap deaths you have while at the same time maximizing your effectiveness in a party situation. I still care about meeting this challenge because the game rewards you for doing so, and my broke ass needs the meseta. There is sort of a balancing act you have to perform with scape dolls in these situations. If you don't use them and die, then the party's reward is decreased. If you use too many, then you're not making a profit.

I don't feel that avoiding deaths, even the cheap ones, is extraordinarily difficult. So when the death penalty is removed, I'm sure you'll all rejoice because you can run face first into a megid and no one will care, but where's the challenge in obtaining an S-rank? It's going to really cheapen the accomplishment, and that's what I don't like.

As it is, money and MP are the only rewards you get. If you've made enough money from shops and have all the best stuff that money can normally buy, money hardly means anything. I'd rather be rewarded with...you know, something to show for my efforts.

And playing to reduce cheap deaths is often not exciting or fun. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif It often involves using cheap methods yourself. For instance, as a Fortegunner I have several different ways to simply keep an enemy on constant lockdown. Actually engaging enemies in a fair fight is a surefire way to eat cheap death or simply fight needlessly dragged-out battles (unless in a large group that kills quickly). That's not much of a challenge, it's just the sort of cheese that whine goes great with.

Shiro_Ryuu

Jul 2, 2007, 12:17 AM

Actually, I hardly ever die from a Kamatoze's dambarta, Rising Crush, Anga Dugrega, and such really do the job on these guys, they're actually pretty easy compared to worms IMO. And yeah, Jife is right on alot of these things. Oh yeah, and this just in, my internet was really sucking today, and I died to a Drua Gohra, a FRIGGIN DRUA GOHRA, by far the weakest monster in Desert Terror after Jishagara and Navels, and it was because he was foie-ing me when I lagged up, unable to use a trimate. Just comes to show that connection may play a role in deaths too, even broadband users may get crummy connections sometimes, or someone can be dling from Azureus from a PC, or could be PS2, or something like that.

chibiLegolas

Jul 2, 2007, 04:24 PM

Wow. Most ppl got things backwards. At least, from my point of view.
I like the no death penalty rule if only they add in a few more alterations:

Scapedolls should be found only through rare finding. NOT store bought.
And as a result, reserved for BOSSES since they're gonna be scarce.
Up boss mission rewards more to encourage ppl to WANT to S rank bosses. If you're just rare hunting, you don't necessarily need that S rank. So you get options here...

This will force ppl to use Moons/Giresta for most of the meat of the mission and will FINALLY have a purpose in the game again.

Once player dies, have the OPTION on death screen to use scapedoll or not (if you have in your inventory). This will help fix those cheap double deaths of megid/foie in the face the moment you got resurected. (you get to time it better yourself).

Moons/giresta only on bosses cause you ran out of dolls? Scapedolls during normal missions?
Sounds crazy to me.
And I don't think ST meant them to be used that way. Hence them, trying to tweak the death system.

Tigerram

Jul 2, 2007, 05:37 PM

On 2007-06-29 10:08, Akaimizu wrote:
That would make sense. Mainly because well, perhaps they felt being punished for NPCs dying was too much. Though technically, it would be more like a bandage. They probably wouldn't think to change that if the NPCs didn't sometimes just do stupid stuff that the player just couldn't help against.

"Hey Master! Watch me go and attack this monster that's standing in a fire pit!"

"Hey! Wait!! No!!!"

(PM dies)

Now of course, it's not always the PM doing that kind of stuff.

No, that would be Leo doing that stuff http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Inazuma

Jul 2, 2007, 06:19 PM

i didnt like the old death penalty system b/c it sux losing S rank b/c someone else in the party forgets to bring scapes. or worse, doesnt use em on purpose.
also, giresta and moons were not only useless, but a bad idea in general. revive that player and he will just die again, further lowering your mission reward.

i love the new system. basically, i dont need to care about others using scapes or not. even if someone dies very often, it really doesnt cost that much to keep reviving em.
w/ a 1300 PP rod, it would take roughly 80 casts of giresta to equal 5k, the price of a scape. the expansion will prob lower giresta's pp cost too.
i dont remember the prices of moons offhand, but its prob not that expensive compared to scapes. how many moons can you buy for 5k?

XDeviousX

Jul 2, 2007, 06:42 PM

On 2007-07-02 14:24, chibiLegolas wrote:
Wow. Most ppl got things backwards. At least, from my point of view.
I like the no death penalty rule if only they add in a few more alterations:

Scapedolls should be found only through rare finding. NOT store bought.
And as a result, reserved for BOSSES since they're gonna be scarce.
Up boss mission rewards more to encourage ppl to WANT to S rank bosses. If you're just rare hunting, you don't necessarily need that S rank. So you get options here...

This will force ppl to use Moons/Giresta for most of the meat of the mission and will FINALLY have a purpose in the game again.

Once player dies, have the OPTION on death screen to use scapedoll or not (if you have in your inventory). This will help fix those cheap double deaths of megid/foie in the face the moment you got resurected. (you get to time it better yourself).

Moons/giresta only on bosses cause you ran out of dolls? Scapedolls during normal missions?
Sounds crazy to me.
And I don't think ST meant them to be used that way. Hence them, trying to tweak the death system.

How can you save a scape doll until a boss battle? It's not like you can just keep them, die, and not use them...

Moon Atomizers are useful to revive people in boss battles if a player runs out of scape dolls and dies, especially since if you go back to town during a boss encounter you cannot return to the battle!!!! That is why moons would be useful in that situation, if you are out of scape dolls.

Too many people are arguing about extreme, rare, or understandable circumstances. A few deaths due to lag, bad connection, etc. are understandable, but dying because you "couldn't kill something fast enough" for any reason is the sign of an unskillful player. Use a friggin gun and stop spamming melee PAs for goodness sakes! I saw three players today, levels 30, 45, and 51 who didn't have, or even own, a friggin handgun on their fortefighters because "it's not how they play..." and of coarse all three got owned a few times trying to spam melee PAs on creatures that use techs... (megid, foi, and barta to be precise.) only 1 of these kids I mentioned had scape dolls because the other two were too poor to own some, and my guess, the dying all the time because they were to dumb to buy/use a gun!!!

Getting rid of the death penalty would be fine with me IF they made the need to even use moon atomizers or Giresta pointless as well. Otherwise the argument moves from "I couldn't afford/remember/care to bring scapes" to "I I couldn't afford/remember/care to bring moon atomizers"... I don't feel like buying scapes for myself to not use ANYONE ELSE'S resources and then buy a ton of moon atomizers to revive players that die a lot due to spamming PAs and not caring about being a team player! I do think it will make the game too easy, but it will be less annoying if I don't have to babysit players that have trouble staying alive....

Kylie

Jul 2, 2007, 07:00 PM

I hope it comes soon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I hate wasting money on scapes.

Of course, you can get 10k / 15mins on C with the new mission.

Mayu

Jul 2, 2007, 07:12 PM

-_- great you had to revive it <.<

Lonzell

Jul 2, 2007, 07:15 PM

Damn you guys must be some poor poor people to not have enough cash for scapes. That and some people who die waaaaay too much for it to be healthy

Mayu

Jul 2, 2007, 07:17 PM

NUUUUU LONZELL <.<

Well w/e <.< here!

''We don't have haxeta'' let it die!

Lonzell

Jul 2, 2007, 07:25 PM

Im on 360. We don't have haxeta anyways.

Morganna

Jul 2, 2007, 09:23 PM

On 2007-06-29 17:09, XDeviousX wrote:
I never insulted you, so stop being an internet "intelectual" and acting like your points are worth insulting people directly over.

No, but above you reserved the right to be insulting to bad players. Nobody should be insulting to anyone, but it's not like you're some innocent little victim here.

Meanwhile...why is this bad news for anyone? It means you can use the bad players as warm bodies to get to the end of the mission without the hassle of them being idiots. Hand wringing about "accomplishment" or "earning" is nonsense, because you're just using it as an excuse to boast and demean others. "I earned, you didn't, I'm a better human being than you are, nyah nyah nyah."

See, concern about teamwork and being slowed down is not elitsm. But punctuating it with some screed about "earning" or "hard work" IS elitist.

But look, you know, you can adapt.

Just put in your party comment "Screw the new rules, if you demonstrate carelessness you will be booted even if you don't endanger S rank."

There, problem solved. Now, wasn't that easy?

[ This Message was edited by: Morganna on 2007-07-02 19:24 ]

Alisha

Jul 3, 2007, 04:00 AM

this in neither here nor there but there was ALWAYS a death penalty in pso,but unless you abused photon blast combos you probally could of cared less. you lost sync on your mag.

Nai_Calus

Jul 3, 2007, 06:14 AM

Sync didn't affect the PB strength though, at least not for what actually mattered. It was Mag IQ that determined how strong your ubar-S/D would be. Sync just affected how often your mag would do its abilities. Low sync and it would rarely do 'em, high and it would do it often. If you were using something like a Rati on a FOmar you wouldn't have given a damn.

Fuck, that reminds me of one thing that pisses me off more than anything else in this game. WHY THE FUCK DOES LOWER-LEVEL S/D/Z/R OVERWRITE HIGHER?! Same for debuffs. Jesus Christ. I start buffing with my second tier buffs. The other fucking Force decides that they now too must buff with their fucking tier one, fucking over the team and wasting my goddamned PP because I now have to re-cast. I have tier 3 on me from a FT with higher techs than mine and some stupid enemy with a tier 1 debuff overwrites it. The fuck is this shit? They had it right in PSO. Lower-level didn't overwrite higher and if the buffs you had on you were higher than the debuffs the enemy was trying to slap on you they wouldn't take. And if they were higher than what you had you had to use a Sol or Anti 6 because you couldn't overwrite them. THAT made sense.

At least this isn't BB, where nobody would do anything but TTF and HS because it ogod they might die and lose fucktons of exp(Whoever thought that up needed to be shot. Kind of like whoever thought up that retarded tech nerf they tried and then took back because every single Force in the game wrote to them bitching.(Yes, ST, techs are ALREADY useless, let's make them WORSE! Good thinking!). So fucking stupid. Valid complaint, but it led to shit like: "Let me teach you Tower. It's easy. Good raerz and fun." "Nuu we migth die." "So we'll drop to VHard where Meris aren't instant death and I'll teach you there." "Nuu vhard sux." Christ on a Pogo Stick.

Shit does in fact happen, which is why crappy over-punitive death penalties end up just fucking over communities. PSU's at least isn't as bad as some, and the new one will just make things better. XP

Besides, I'll be forced to continue to try to figure out how to be a good player because, oh snap, I solo due to my connection and weird work hours. This'll make it easier on me, though. NPCs make things go faster due to adding more damage to the mix(Elly's PM has been known to kill Ollakas before Elly could tag them, rofl), but they don't always heal fast enough(Or at all, I'm looking at you, stupid Laia) and they die to cheap shit too. Being able to bring 'em along to act as meatshields and additional damage without worrying about shitty AI will be niiiiiiiice.

Konstanse_Xx

Jul 3, 2007, 06:47 AM

On 2007-07-03 04:14, Ian-KunX wrote:
Sync didn't affect the PB strength though, at least not for what actually mattered. It was Mag IQ that determined how strong your ubar-S/D would be. Sync just affected how often your mag would do its abilities. Low sync and it would rarely do 'em, high and it would do it often. If you were using something like a Rati on a FOmar you wouldn't have given a damn.

Fuck, that reminds me of one thing that pisses me off more than anything else in this game. WHY THE FUCK DOES LOWER-LEVEL S/D/Z/R OVERWRITE HIGHER?! Same for debuffs. Jesus Christ. I start buffing with my second tier buffs. The other fucking Force decides that they now too must buff with their fucking tier one, fucking over the team and wasting my goddamned PP because I now have to re-cast. I have tier 3 on me from a FT with higher techs than mine and some stupid enemy with a tier 1 debuff overwrites it. The fuck is this shit? They had it right in PSO. Lower-level didn't overwrite higher and if the buffs you had on you were higher than the debuffs the enemy was trying to slap on you they wouldn't take. And if they were higher than what you had you had to use a Sol or Anti 6 because you couldn't overwrite them. THAT made sense.

At least this isn't BB, where nobody would do anything but TTF and HS because it ogod they might die and lose fucktons of exp(Whoever thought that up needed to be shot. Kind of like whoever thought up that retarded tech nerf they tried and then took back because every single Force in the game wrote to them bitching.(Yes, ST, techs are ALREADY useless, let's make them WORSE! Good thinking!). So fucking stupid. Valid complaint, but it led to shit like: "Let me teach you Tower. It's easy. Good raerz and fun." "Nuu we migth die." "So we'll drop to VHard where Meris aren't instant death and I'll teach you there." "Nuu vhard sux." Christ on a Pogo Stick.

Shit does in fact happen, which is why crappy over-punitive death penalties end up just fucking over communities. PSU's at least isn't as bad as some, and the new one will just make things better. XP

Besides, I'll be forced to continue to try to figure out how to be a good player because, oh snap, I solo due to my connection and weird work hours. This'll make it easier on me, though. NPCs make things go faster due to adding more damage to the mix(Elly's PM has been known to kill Ollakas before Elly could tag them, rofl), but they don't always heal fast enough(Or at all, I'm looking at you, stupid Laia) and they die to cheap shit too. Being able to bring 'em along to act as meatshields and additional damage without worrying about shitty AI will be niiiiiiiice.

Summed it up pretty nicely, I just don't want NPC deaths to count, if they didn't I would be all good lol.

IDC about real people, I don't die either way. o.o

Alis-Landeel

Jul 3, 2007, 08:24 AM

I think there should be a countdown that starts when you die. 5 or 10 seconds (as in old Coin-Op). If teammates revive you with moon or giresta within the countdown, then you don't lose S rank. Otherwise, you' ll do.

This thing has twice advantage:
1) Everyone must have at least one scape, in case one dies while is isolated.
2) Moon, Scape and Giresta would be all necessary, without that the game becomes too easy and unchallenged.

Realmz

Jul 3, 2007, 08:33 AM

On 2007-07-03 06:24, Alis-Landeel wrote:
I think there should be a countdown that starts when you die. 5 or 10 seconds (as in old Coin-Op). If teammates revive you with moon or giresta within the countdown, then you don't lose S rank. Otherwise, you' ll do.

This thing has twice advantage:
1) Everyone must have at least one scape, in case one dies while is isolated.
2) Moon, Scape and Giresta would be all necessary, without that the game becomes too easy and unchallenged.

i think this idea, and as always if you leave the mission you also get a rank down.

Serephim

Jul 3, 2007, 09:58 AM

On 2007-06-29 12:33, akratic wrote:

On 2007-06-29 12:24, Shiroryuu wrote:
Well, JAFO, if they do fix that stupidity, at least it'll be a good stepping stone to the death of elitism.

I agree. The system should reward everyone equally, no matter how they play.

I hate it when I get in trouble with teammates when I am playing while at the same time watching TV and talking on the phone. They're all like, "could you please focus on the game so we can get through this without having to save you all the time?" I just kind of giggle at them and am all like, "Sorry!"

Now I can get sweet sranks and mucho meseta while I look up anime on my computer and don't care how I play PSU.

This is a system full of win and awesomeness.

Down with ELITIST players! No one should get rewarded for effort - it's not fair to those of us who don't try.

Those arnt Elitist players, those are just players.

I myself would kick the shit anyone for LOOKING UP FUCKING ANIME while we're trying to S rank a mission.

I know we're playing a videogame, but at least TRY to act like you have a life.

[ This Message was edited by: Serephim on 2007-07-03 08:00 ]

Neith

Jul 3, 2007, 10:07 AM

Down with Fortefighters who don't pack a Handgun, it's stupid not to.

There should be a penalty for death, it's a sign you've done something wrong. The only exception I can think of is an instant-kill attack like Megid. In areas like HIVE, where Megid is everywhere, classes with low MST/STA get owned a lot (sometimes it's hard to dodge, especially if it's in a corridor). I'm not sure there should be a penalty system for dying to Megid's OHKO effect, but dying to other means should be punished.

You're meant to be helping out, not getting your ass handed to you. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

chibiLegolas

Jul 3, 2007, 10:20 AM

On 2007-07-02 16:42, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-07-02 14:24, chibiLegolas wrote:
Once player dies, have the OPTION on death screen to use scapedoll or not (if you have in your inventory). This will help fix those cheap double deaths of megid/foie in the face the moment you got resurected. (you get to time it better yourself).

How can you save a scape doll until a boss battle? It's not like you can just keep them, die, and not use them...

Note one of my suggested alterations above....
Though I like the count down during death screen idea. At least that forces ppl to not solo a section by themselves and be quick with their moons/giresta.

And for those who are against the new death rules:
I know death should have a penatly and all, but then what would you suggest moons and giresta be used for then? Remember it takes a whole lot of PA frags to even buy giresta. Shouldn't these 2 items to useful like they're intended for?
Again, if you ppl like something more challenging, just run the co-op missions. Or simply add a message into your missions (like suggested earlier). No scapes = boot.

[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-07-03 08:26 ]

Sexy_Raine

Jul 3, 2007, 11:00 AM

It doesn't matter to me, I don't see the red screen of death anyway. Plain and simple.

Kylie

Jul 3, 2007, 11:29 AM

On 2007-07-03 09:00, Sexy_Raine wrote:
It doesn't matter to me, I don't see the red screen of death anyway. Plain and simple.

So you've developed an immunity to megid? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif Impressive.

Arika

Jul 3, 2007, 11:37 AM

I care more on NPC, when they die without losing my S rank = happy solo

Hexadecimal

Jul 3, 2007, 11:51 AM

I hate the elitism in this game. The fact that one of my characters (Naranna) got stuck in the early thirties because people said she was too weak (Primarily because she's a wartecher) bothers me to no end.

The fact they don't even give me a chance a lot of the time is why I spend most of my time harassing people in the lobby about their stupid worries of random player A humping them, or their spammanation.

Morganna

Jul 3, 2007, 11:56 AM

Elitism is a fact of life for humanity. Humanity always wishes to exalt itself above their brothers, thereby treating them as subhuman. It is wrong and it is evil, but you can't reason with evil.

Honey_Bot

Jul 3, 2007, 12:19 PM

XX
--

dying in style

JAFO22000

Jul 3, 2007, 12:21 PM

On 2007-07-03 10:19, Honey_Bot wrote:
XX
--

dying in style

...since 2006!

amtalx

Jul 3, 2007, 12:29 PM

On 2007-07-03 09:51, Hexadecimal wrote:
I hate the elitism in this game. The fact that one of my characters (Naranna) got stuck in the early thirties because people said she was too weak (Primarily because she's a wartecher) bothers me to no end.

The fact they don't even give me a chance a lot of the time is why I spend most of my time harassing people in the lobby about their stupid worries of random player A humping them, or their spammanation.

You could always invite them to your party then remove them before they get a change to leave. Always leaves a nice taste in their mouth. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Kylie

Jul 3, 2007, 12:43 PM

On 2007-07-03 09:51, Hexadecimal wrote:
I hate the elitism in this game. The fact that one of my characters (Naranna) got stuck in the early thirties because people said she was too weak (Primarily because she's a wartecher) bothers me to no end.

The fact they don't even give me a chance a lot of the time is why I spend most of my time harassing people in the lobby about their stupid worries of random player A humping them, or their spammanation.

The games you join must suck then. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif Seriously, not everyone in this game is an elitist, and I'm sure you can find someone decent to play with. It's just a matter of actually trying more and finding the nice people.

Cracka_J

Jul 3, 2007, 12:52 PM

it's simple games like these that develop elitism much quicker then games that require skill. everyone is trying to be better then everyone else, when the only real defining point to "better" is the equipment you carry, and how well you can flame somone on the boards. playstyles/skill lvl/planning really amount to nothing in this game, and it's just plain silly to think cause you get hit less by random stuff you should be awarded more sranks. I'm all for the new system, and while there are the obvious naysayers, I'm sure the majority will be happy with the changes. if you want to be elite, go play a fighting game or something that requires actual skill/practice/timing. otherwise stfu and play this game for fun.

ShineOnline

Jul 3, 2007, 02:11 PM

For those that like the challenge of not dying, this penalty rebalancing changes very little. Just because you don't get a lower ranking doesn't diminish the fact that it's still an accomplishment for making it through without dying. You have to separate the challenge from the reward.

JAFO22000

Jul 3, 2007, 02:21 PM

On 2007-07-03 10:52, Cracka_J wrote:
playstyles/skill lvl/planning really amount to nothing in this game, and it's just plain silly to think cause you get hit less by random stuff you should be awarded more sranks.

Yes, it's silly to think that because some work harder and contribute more to the team dynamic that they should get greater rewards.

It's also silly to think that I because I work harder, stay longer hours and find out how to do things more productively/efficiently at my worksite that I should be entitled to a higher raise than the person who comes in late all of the time, hardly does any work all day and calls in sick every other Friday. Yeah, I should get the same raise as this person. That's fair, right?

The harder working person SHOULD get a better reward. The person who cares enough to play better should be entitled to something more than those who play casually.

Cracka_J

Jul 3, 2007, 03:27 PM

you're talking about effort, not playstyles/skill/planning. lots of people put effort into this game, and still die. just like a lot of people put effort into their jobs and still get fired for making one noticeable mistake. you can easily weed out the people putting forth effort from the slackers, but when you start ranking the people putting forth effort by the number of times they died, it is (like I said) silly.

Morganna

Jul 3, 2007, 03:30 PM

EFFORT UBER ALLES!

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 03:35 PM

Ehhh, stop whinin'. If someone says you suck and need to get better, then simply become better and strive harder. Stop lookin' for excuses and labelin' it as 'elitism.

Morganna

Jul 3, 2007, 03:48 PM

Incivility is never acceptable, no matter how noble the reasoning.

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 03:53 PM

On 2007-07-03 13:48, Morganna wrote:
Incivility is never acceptable, no matter how noble the reasoning.

Of course. Because the denial of one's own inadequatecy has the sweet tempting taste of a virgin's lips. It's much easier to swollow, being as it travels down the throat like a delicious warm nectar.

JAFO22000

Jul 3, 2007, 04:04 PM

On 2007-07-03 13:27, Cracka_J wrote:
you're talking about effort, not playstyles/skill/planning. lots of people put effort into this game, and still die. just like a lot of people put effort into their jobs and still get fired for making one noticeable mistake. you can easily weed out the people putting forth effort from the slackers, but when you start ranking the people putting forth effort by the number of times they died, it is (like I said) silly.

Skill IS effort. Planning IS effort. If you're putting effort in and still dying too much, then your effort is for naught. You're a hamster in a wheel. Effort without results is just wasted time. Like that movie Rudy: Craploads of effort, but he got in for one play....WOOOO!!!

I still die from time to time. There are situations when I may not have been concentrating enough or I didn't play to the ideal and I die. But I know that it was MY fault. Pretty much everytime I die, it's MY fault. And I know how to rectify it. And if I don't, I figure out a way to adapt my playstyle so it doesn't happen again.

Example, Megid. First time I saw a Jarba, I didn't know what to expect. I probably died due to ignorance of it's attacks. But I have since changed my playstyle to adapt to these creatures and I barely die against them, if ever. I learned to stay away from the Jarba's and shoot them. This makes their megid easy to dodge and takes the Dambarta completely out of the equation.

If you're still dying fro Jarba megid or dambarta, it means you are too close to them. Yet you call this a "cheap" death? I call that stupid playstyle. You are feeding into this creatures strength by being so close.

OK, OK, so you are a FF and have to be close to do any sort of damage whatsoever...but how are you approaching them? Do you just run up to the front of it and start spamming your PA's, or do you cautiously run behind them (keeping all other Jarbas in view, of course!), and use controlled button pushes so you can cancel your combo when you need to pull back because dambarta is coming?

The above two examples both show a FF using effort to try and help the team. Only problem is the one who runs straight up to the Jarba and starts spamming PA's is wasting his effort as this is a one way ticket to scapedollville. The second FF who uses caution and controlled attacks is going to survive because he prepared. Again, effort is there in both cases, but one is stupid effort and one is smart effort.

Stupid effort should not be rewarded!!

Say you are supervising a sales department and you need two people to come up with a slogan for your new ad campaign. Employee one puts in effort and comes up with 4 great slogans. Employee two puts in effort and comes up with utter crap. Should they get the same bonus at the end of the project?

ShineOnline

Jul 3, 2007, 04:09 PM

I understand the sales department analogy, but it's not like there's a finite amount of rewards, meseta, rares that need to be allocated carefully. If they simply removed the rankings and gave flat rewards to everyone in the party, does it really change the game that much?

Morganna

Jul 3, 2007, 04:09 PM

One can correct without incivility. The problem is, people defend incivility as a tool to correct, when they would not tolerate incivility themselves...or else they would tolerate incivility, which means that they are spineless wimps who allow others to disrespect them.

In the end though, people who believe themselves superior to other human beings will cling to any rationale they can manufacture, and scorn those who disagree as "hippies" and "pacifists."

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 04:32 PM

For a Jarba, you obviously have to stay at its back as you attack. If your PA makes you move, always move towards its left hand side. Do you know why? Because its only other melee based attack is a right hook foward. Staying at its left, and its direct center/front prevents you from being hit. You keep an eye out for other Jarba that are in the vicinity that might decide to turn your way. If they do, dont let up on your attack until you see the flinch/rearing back animation they preform before Megid, and gtfo the way.

Its simple things like this that you do to keep you alive. Whereas from what i've seen of most people, you run at the friggin' front of the mosnter at breakneck speed swinging away, then get angry when you get oneshotted by a Megid... blaming it on a 'unfair death'.

JAFO22000

Jul 3, 2007, 04:33 PM

On 2007-07-03 14:09, ShineOnline wrote:
I understand the sales department analogy, but it's not like there's a finite amount of rewards, meseta, rares that need to be allocated carefully. If they simply removed the rankings and gave flat rewards to everyone in the party, does it really change the game that much?

I believe it would change the gameplay greatly. There would be no penalty for dying, thus eliminating the need for teamwork (and no, using a Moon or Giresta on a fallen comerade does NOT constitute teamwork!). No reason to contribute to the team dynamic whatsoever. No reason to use mates at all. No reason to risk possible damage as a force running up to heal the FF.

Why stun lock the Gol Dova? Doesn't matter if I die.

You got stunned by the Bil De Vear and he's about to spin? No use in me running in there to attempt to save you with Star/Sol Atomizers, I'll just wait 'til you die and get you with a Moon!

Dodge Megid?? Pshaw! Let it hit me, because even if I do die, it doesn't matter. I just let it pass through my body. It's a little game to me to see how many hits I can take before dying....I'm already at 42 hits with no death in block one! But when I do die, it doesn't matter.

I just soloed Fakis S with no scapes and 172 deaths...and I STILL got the same reward as you who did it in a party of 6 and tried not to die. You suck! Don't you know it doesn't matter if you die or not?? Noob!

Sometimes I die just for fun! I put my 50% fire armor on and fight Onmagoug just to see what happens....

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 04:33 PM

On 2007-07-03 14:09, Morganna wrote:
One can correct without incivility. The problem is, people defend incivility as a tool to correct, when they would not tolerate incivility themselves...or else they would tolerate incivility, which means that they are spineless wimps who allow others to disrespect them.

In the end though, people who believe themselves superior to other human beings will cling to any rationale they can manufacture, and scorn those who disagree as "hippies" and "pacifists."

It's not 'defending' incivility. Its having a low tolerance to idiociy.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 04:34 PM

The problem with a level reward system is MP unlike in pso. Everyone should get xp if they earn a hit or contribute to or cause the death of an enemy, but MP is a gauge of how well you're playing a mission/class and rewards "good players" by increasing their class for extra stats. You could theoretically be level 80 and still level 1 in all the basic classes. In pso class and levels were raised by XP, so there was no need to put a reward system on any mission except challenge missions to get S-Ranked items/weapons/etc. In PSU the MP is the critical reward because it is the key to opening up advanced classes and it adds bonus stats to your character, on top of their levels. To just give MP away is just pointless, unless they make different variables to equate MP gain then there being no death penalty just takes away the drive to play missions for anything other then rare hunting...

I wouldn't have a problem with moon atomizers and giresta not being counted towards the death penalty if their were a limit to their uses before you lose ranking. Maybe like 6 revives scapes or moon atomizers on c for the whole party, then 4 for b, 3 for a, 2 for s and 1 for S2. That would piss a lot of people off though, but I think it would encourage more teamwork the hard way.....

Of coarse if there is a fair system that adds challenge and motivates teamwork that could be implemented I would be for it 100%, but the new system how its been explained doesn't seem fair to responsible players or challenging ebough to feel reward for the effort exerted...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-03 14:36 ]

Sekani

Jul 3, 2007, 04:49 PM

I deserve some kind of reward for being branded an "elitist" without having a single max-level character yet. I don't see that happen very often.

If you self-proclaimed casual players are having so much fun just playing and not worrying about the rewards (or lack thereof), why does it concern you that the "elitists" are getting more and better stuff than you? I mean, it's not like we didn't earn it.

The game's too hard or too cheap for EVERYONE to obtain the highest rewards, so the game is broken, and must be dumbed down to cater to the lowest common denominator. Right.

I put in more effort than the slacker down the hall at work, so you better believe I'm gonna be pissed off if I don't get a higher raise than he does. PSU isn't as serious business as the workplace, but the same concept applies. The world isn't gonna end if every noob can suddenly S-rank Seed Awakening, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna just relax and like it.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 04:51 PM

On 2007-07-02 19:23, Morganna wrote:

On 2007-06-29 17:09, XDeviousX wrote:
I never insulted you, so stop being an internet "intelectual" and acting like your points are worth insulting people directly over.

No, but above you reserved the right to be insulting to bad players. Nobody should be insulting to anyone, but it's not like you're some innocent little victim here.

Meanwhile...why is this bad news for anyone? It means you can use the bad players as warm bodies to get to the end of the mission without the hassle of them being idiots. Hand wringing about "accomplishment" or "earning" is nonsense, because you're just using it as an excuse to boast and demean others. "I earned, you didn't, I'm a better human being than you are, nyah nyah nyah."

See, concern about teamwork and being slowed down is not elitsm. But punctuating it with some screed about "earning" or "hard work" IS elitist.

But look, you know, you can adapt.

Just put in your party comment "Screw the new rules, if you demonstrate carelessness you will be booted even if you don't endanger S rank."

There, problem solved. Now, wasn't that easy?

[ This Message was edited by: Morganna on 2007-07-02 19:24 ]

Good grief...

I am not innocent, or acting innocent, the only people I will accept insulting me PERSONALLY are people that know me PERSONALLY. It is easy to make a direct and insulting remark over the internet sitting in your cozy little room under your GI Joe bed sheets, but it is another situation all together if you have to say something to somebody face to face. I try not to direct anything towards specific people, but I am human and have got caught up in internet posturing. That being said, personal insults because your view is being ignored or not responded to the way you feel it should is unacceptable. I do not believe I insulted anyone specifically and if anyone feels like I made a personal comment about them then I will apologize, but I know for a fact that most people talk tough online and use the internet to be cyber bullies or just plain rude. It never even looks cool or tough, just sad. Even if you were tough, acting tough online is sad, besides, you never know who is on the other line and how crazy they can get when insulted. Just because you think you are anonymous and untouchable doesn't mean some person out there isn't bored/mean/angry enough to track you down and try to hassle you over a silly internet slight.

That being sad, a disagreement over PSU is no reason to make direct and disrespectful remarks to people, period. I have no respect for people that think being an A$$ online makes them tough or clever...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-03 14:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-03 14:56 ]

Nai_Calus

Jul 3, 2007, 04:56 PM

JAFO, your problem here is that you're trying to compare PSU to some idealized 'real work world'.

In the real world, nobody gets a bonus at the end of the project, they just both get the same crappy paycheck as ever. The boss might come over and give you a pat on the back, if they're not your typical shitty boss, but that's about it. The slacker's probably a pet and will get a bonus instead of you.

Even if it was like your little idealized world, why do *you* expect to be coddled? Who ever said that the game had to be fair? That it had to hold up to your own personal ideal? At the end of the run, the person who got slapped around like a little bitch gets the same reward as the person who didn't get hit once. The worthless Fortetecher who spams Barta on Ice enemies and never buffs or heals gets thes the same reward as one who keeps buffs up the whole time, chases people down to heal them and throws nukes around. Is that fair? Well, no, not really. But it's how the game is. Deal with it.

Is it fair to me if I'm in a run, busting my ass trying to keep the team supported, and at the end I get the same MP/meseta as the other FO in the run that kept overwriting my buffs with lower ones and generally being useless, and the item distribution gave the one red box item to the idiot FO? Nope, not at all, but that's life, shit happens, oh well, get the party leader to boot 'em in favour of someone who isn't a waste of DNA and move on.

And as for people whining about people complaining about elitists... Yeah, when the elitists stop yelling 'you suck' and start saying 'Hey, you know, that's not the best way to do that, come with me on this run and I'll show you how to handle it better so it won't be a problem for you next time', then I'll stop thinking of them as elitist pigs and start thinking of them as cool people who are well-worth knowing.

Actually, they can still pull the 'you suck' shit, as long as they provide advice. But all the 'superior' people need to either start educating and showing off their knowledge to help people out or shut up. Fine, I went into that situation wrong, not knowing the right way, and I died and lost a scape. I suck. Feel free to tell me and laugh at me. Now tell me how to do it *right*, show me if possible. I will be grateful and I can then use that knowledge to the betterment of myself and future teams, or even the present one, depending on where we are in the mission. I can even then educate future people on the subject when I encounter those who don't know the secret, and in this way things get around and the player base slowly improves for the better as a whole.

Whereas just saying 'you suck' and leaving it at that doesn't teach anything, doesn't improve anything, just leads to the person who didn't do it quite right thinking you're a jackass, because I can damn well tell that what I did just now failed, thank you very much, I died. Duh.

It's like back on PSO. The crowd I ran with took me to East Tower. I did stupid shit and died because I didn't know how to go about it. They told me how to go about it and how to deal with shit there. I stopped dying. I taught other people how to do it. They didn't die either.

Yes, in an ideal world we'd all figure it out on our own, but not everyone does. Sometimes you do in fact just simply overlook the obvious, or there's this one PA that makes this situation stupidly easy but you didn't know what it was and didn't have it, weren't planning on getting it and wouldn't have known otherwise. (Or you're like me and have connection issues that make reloading a counter all the time not an option. XD)

That's the elitism I see in this game. The 'God you suck, GTFO' mentality instead of the 'Dude, you sucked there, let me show you how to fix it' mentality. It's the number one thing that frustrates me in this game, even above and beyond my connection issues. Elitism. It's everywhere, and it annoys the hell out of me. Either tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it, since you obviously know how to deal with x situation, or leave me the hell alone. If I die three times in a row I know I'm doing something wrong, thx. (Soloing Demons Above C with a L30 Fortetecher. A lesson in OHKOs if you fail a dodge at the boss... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif )

Yeah. Done ranting.

Isabella

Jul 3, 2007, 04:57 PM

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif whoa long post

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 05:03 PM

On 2007-07-03 14:51, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-07-02 19:23, Morganna wrote:

On 2007-06-29 17:09, XDeviousX wrote:
I never insulted you, so stop being an internet "intelectual" and acting like your points are worth insulting people directly over.

No, but above you reserved the right to be insulting to bad players. Nobody should be insulting to anyone, but it's not like you're some innocent little victim here.

Meanwhile...why is this bad news for anyone? It means you can use the bad players as warm bodies to get to the end of the mission without the hassle of them being idiots. Hand wringing about "accomplishment" or "earning" is nonsense, because you're just using it as an excuse to boast and demean others. "I earned, you didn't, I'm a better human being than you are, nyah nyah nyah."

See, concern about teamwork and being slowed down is not elitsm. But punctuating it with some screed about "earning" or "hard work" IS elitist.

But look, you know, you can adapt.

Just put in your party comment "Screw the new rules, if you demonstrate carelessness you will be booted even if you don't endanger S rank."

There, problem solved. Now, wasn't that easy?

[ This Message was edited by: Morganna on 2007-07-02 19:24 ]

That being sad, a disagreement over PSU is no reason to make direct and disrespectful remarks to people, period. I have no respect for people that think being an A$$ online makes them tough or clever...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-03 14:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-03 14:56 ]

http://www.encyclopediaofstupid.com/stupid/images/7/7e/Internet.jpg

Sekani

Jul 3, 2007, 05:05 PM

On 2007-07-03 14:56, Ian-KunX wrote:
And as for people whining about people complaining about elitists... Yeah, when the elitists stop yelling 'you suck' and start saying 'Hey, you know, that's not the best way to do that, come with me on this run and I'll show you how to handle it better so it won't be a problem for you next time', then I'll stop thinking of them as elitist pigs and start thinking of them as cool people who are well-worth knowing.

Actually, they can still pull the 'you suck' shit, as long as they provide advice. But all the 'superior' people need to either start educating and showing off their knowledge to help people out or shut up. Fine, I went into that situation wrong, not knowing the right way, and I died and lost a scape. I suck. Feel free to tell me and laugh at me. Now tell me how to do it *right*, show me if possible. I will be grateful and I can then use that knowledge to the betterment of myself and future teams, or even the present one, depending on where we are in the mission. I can even then educate future people on the subject when I encounter those who don't know the secret, and in this way things get around and the player base slowly improves for the better as a whole.

Whereas just saying 'you suck' and leaving it at that doesn't teach anything, doesn't improve anything, just leads to the person who didn't do it quite right thinking you're a jackass, because I can damn well tell that what I did just now failed, thank you very much, I died. Duh.

It's like back on PSO. The crowd I ran with took me to East Tower. I did stupid shit and died because I didn't know how to go about it. They told me how to go about it and how to deal with shit there. I stopped dying. I taught other people how to do it. They didn't die either.

Yes, in an ideal world we'd all figure it out on our own, but not everyone does. Sometimes you do in fact just simply overlook the obvious, or there's this one PA that makes this situation stupidly easy but you didn't know what it was and didn't have it, weren't planning on getting it and wouldn't have known otherwise. (Or you're like me and have connection issues that make reloading a counter all the time not an option. XD)

That's the elitism I see in this game. The 'God you suck, GTFO' mentality instead of the 'Dude, you sucked there, let me show you how to fix it' mentality. It's the number one thing that frustrates me in this game, even above and beyond my connection issues. Elitism. It's everywhere, and it annoys the hell out of me. Either tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it, since you obviously know how to deal with x situation, or leave me the hell alone. If I die three times in a row I know I'm doing something wrong, thx. (Soloing Demons Above C with a L30 Fortetecher. A lesson in OHKOs if you fail a dodge at the boss... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif )

Yeah. Done ranting.

Four people have attempted to give gameplay advice in this thread. So far they've all been ignored.

But when those same four people say "you suck", everyone hears them loud and clear.

Makes you think, eh?

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 05:12 PM

lol@people taking advice.

When they are given advice they label you a 'elitist' because they don't want to hear that the way they are doing something is wrong. It doesn't matter if you give the advice in a friendly manner or not.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 05:19 PM

On 2007-07-03 14:56, Ian-KunX wrote:
JAFO, your problem here is that you're trying to compare PSU to some idealized 'real work world'.

In the real world, nobody gets a bonus at the end of the project, they just both get the same crappy paycheck as ever. The boss might come over and give you a pat on the back, if they're not your typical shitty boss, but that's about it. The slacker's probably a pet and will get a bonus instead of you.

Even if it was like your little idealized world, why do *you* expect to be coddled? .....

Is it fair to me if I'm in a run, busting my ass trying to keep the team supported, and at the end I get the same MP/meseta as the other FO in the run that kept overwriting my buffs with lower ones and generally being useless, and the item distribution gave the one red box item to the idiot FO?

And as for people whining about people complaining about elitists... Yeah, when the elitists stop yelling 'you suck' and start saying 'Hey, you know, that's not the best way to do that, come with me on this run and I'll show you how to handle it better so it won't be a problem for you next time', then I'll stop thinking of them as elitist pigs and start thinking of them as cool people who are well-worth knowing.

Nope, not at all, but that's life, shit happens, oh well, get the party leader to boot 'em in favour of someone who isn't a waste of DNA and move on.

Full of hypocrisy, but I highlight the contrasting parts...

There is a difference between responsible gamers that die on occasion, new players trying to learn the game, and people that do not try to be a team player. Some people will not take advice for whatever reason and act like they know everything about the game because they beat it offline or they beat every rpg they've ever played etc. It is these people that will join a party w/o scape dolls, die, and continue to do so until booted or told to leave, then they hassle another party... I have no problem showing people how to play the game responsibly and effectively, in fact, I spend most of my time and money training new players since I am waiting for AOI and its new weapons/skills to level my main and alts fully. Some people are not team players, we are all complaining about them, but whether they be "Elitists players" or "Bad Players" they are not good "team players"! The people that play irresponsibly to the parties needs will still be just as bad in the current system shift, and the elitists will be just as elite in the way they play and insult these and other people. The only difference is RESPONSIBLE TEAM PLAYERS will be screwed by having to buy scape dolls to help reserve team resources and moon atomizers to save careless/new/bad/uncaring/unchanging players in order to get an S-Rank to level mp. Scapes + moons for all the responsible players is a lot of mesta to spend. 5k - 50k on yourself and 350 - 3.5k on random people dying.... That will add up in the long run but especially the PA spammers that will die countless times now relying on other people to revive them so they can spam away knowing if everyone wants an S-Rank they'll use their moons to revive them...

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 05:22 PM

New players that are trying to learn the game can't get into S and S2 missions. Those that can should already know better. End of dicussion.

Nai_Calus

Jul 3, 2007, 05:24 PM

I saw Lonzell's Jarba advice after I posted, and it's exactly what I'm talking about, actually.

And it does make me think, because most of the people who go on about people 'sucking' goes on about it over and over again, and only starts offering advice if people get on them about it. XP

It's not just this thread, either, or even this forum, it's all over. The few who do offer advice, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about, but most don't, and those who do don't always do it.

I don't treat PSU like a job, I treat it like something to have fun with, and when I'm stuck on something and can't figure out how to deal with it, the 'you suck' cries drown out any useful advice. (And most of the time the advice is 'lulz gunz', no matter which semi-challenging/annoying enemy it is, which is nice but still feels like I'm not doing something right, especially since it seems to be the advice for *everything*, on *any* class. I'm not a Wartecher for the great bullets and selection of ranged weapons, for the love of cheesecake. Surely there's got to be a way to do it with melee or techs, FFS, or I *will* chalk that up to bad design. There was what, one enemy in PSO that you didn't want to melee, ever? And that was best dealt with with a nuke launched from space, but I digress. Why does it feel that apparently half of PSU is best dealt with from a mile away hiding in the doorway with a gun like a coward? I hate that kind of shit. It doesn't take skill, just hiding with a gun.)

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 05:39 PM

On 2007-07-03 15:24, Ian-KunX wrote:
I saw Lonzell's Jarba advice after I posted, and it's exactly what I'm talking about, actually.

And it does make me think, because most of the people who go on about people 'sucking' goes on about it over and over again, and only starts offering advice if people get on them about it. XP

It's not just this thread, either, or even this forum, it's all over. The few who do offer advice, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about, but most don't, and those who do don't always do it.

I don't treat PSU like a job, I treat it like something to have fun with, and when I'm stuck on something and can't figure out how to deal with it, the 'you suck' cries drown out any useful advice. (And most of the time the advice is 'lulz gunz', no matter which semi-challenging/annoying enemy it is, which is nice but still feels like I'm not doing something right, especially since it seems to be the advice for *everything*, on *any* class. I'm not a Wartecher for the great bullets and selection of ranged weapons, for the love of cheesecake. Surely there's got to be a way to do it with melee or techs, FFS, or I *will* chalk that up to bad design. There was what, one enemy in PSO that you didn't want to melee, ever? And that was best dealt with with a nuke launched from space, but I digress. Why does it feel that apparently half of PSU is best dealt with from a mile away hiding in the doorway with a gun like a coward? I hate that kind of shit. It doesn't take skill, just hiding with a gun.)

Advice to effectively kill a jab:

A) Use a melee PA that will stun-lock the jab in question from behind to avoid megid. Move in as quick as possible to avoid it's barta tech, and keep the other Jabs, if any, in sight the best you can so you can cancel your combo and dodge as needed...

B) Use long range attacks from a weapon or tech that allows good mobility for use, like a machine gun, handgun, duel handgun, foi, diga, etc. and keep the Jab just inside of your ranged attacks outer limit to give enough time and space to dodge megid or multiple megid attacks.

C) If possible get on higher ground from a riffle or bow distance and fire away until dead because you are to far for any retaliation...

D) If you have access to traps you can stun/feeze/confuse the jabs and then lay a virus trap and choose the to use a stun-lock or range attack combo to heighten the effect. This burst works well in a party or solo when facing three or more jabs as the virus traps will eat damage even if your are dodging, but it won't last long....

Those are just a few example of the range of things a person could do if they used all of their equipment and skills to their advantage, and thats before we start talking armors and units to heighten defense or effectiveness...

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 05:43 PM

The thing is advice like this you can find all over the place if one just pays attention and asks for it. Or it'll work once you actually listen to it, and put it into effect.

But from the death toll of mission after mission after mission, its obvious that it isn't just advice a lot of these punks need. Its a kick in the ass.

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 05:47 PM

Actually you know what. We should all create a thread and have it sticky'd, so that it informs players how to tackle each mob, and how to survive in each situation the best to lower the usage of scapedolls.

Sekani

Jul 3, 2007, 05:53 PM

On 2007-07-03 15:24, Ian-KunX wrote:
(And most of the time the advice is 'lulz gunz', no matter which semi-challenging/annoying enemy it is, which is nice but still feels like I'm not doing something right, especially since it seems to be the advice for *everything*, on *any* class. I'm not a Wartecher for the great bullets and selection of ranged weapons, for the love of cheesecake. Surely there's got to be a way to do it with melee or techs, FFS, or I *will* chalk that up to bad design. There was what, one enemy in PSO that you didn't want to melee, ever? And that was best dealt with with a nuke launched from space, but I digress. Why does it feel that apparently half of PSU is best dealt with from a mile away hiding in the doorway with a gun like a coward? I hate that kind of shit. It doesn't take skill, just hiding with a gun.)

This is one gripe I'll agree with you on. It's just bad design to have so many melee-unfriendly enemies in my opinion.

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 06:11 PM

If there weren't that many melee-unfriendly enemies in the game it'd be even more broken, and ther'd be even less of a use for gunners.

Sekani

Jul 3, 2007, 06:16 PM

Eh, it's not that there are a lot of melee-unfriendly enemies in total, it's more the distribution of them. There are entire levels of robots and flyers that put hunter-types at a disadvantage, but I can't think of any levels that bother forces or rangers to that extent.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 06:18 PM

On 2007-07-03 15:53, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-07-03 15:24, Ian-KunX wrote:
(And most of the time the advice is 'lulz gunz', no matter which semi-challenging/annoying enemy it is, which is nice but still feels like I'm not doing something right, especially since it seems to be the advice for *everything*, on *any* class. I'm not a Wartecher for the great bullets and selection of ranged weapons, for the love of cheesecake. Surely there's got to be a way to do it with melee or techs, FFS, or I *will* chalk that up to bad design. There was what, one enemy in PSO that you didn't want to melee, ever? And that was best dealt with with a nuke launched from space, but I digress. Why does it feel that apparently half of PSU is best dealt with from a mile away hiding in the doorway with a gun like a coward? I hate that kind of shit. It doesn't take skill, just hiding with a gun.)

This is one gripe I'll agree with you on. It's just bad design to have so many melee-unfriendly enemies in my opinion.

This "gripe" has been disproved on e few separate threads. There are no "greater" number of melee unfriendly enemies then gun or tech resistant. There are different types of melle PAs and most people that say an enemy is melee unfriendly is using the wrong PA are stuck on trying to use a PA that deals the biggest number on screen instead of the most effective. Here is a list and I'll list the PA I most use for each type:

1) The knock down/Knock Back PA: this type is used to knock over or push back enemies that use harmful techs or cause nagging damage when they group together... Tornado Dance, Rising strike, Splendor Crush

2) The Stun-Lock PA: This type is used to stun the target stopping it from taking any action or stalling its tech use/advance. Usually used on bigger enemies the damage is usually lower then the other PAs but the effectiveness is priceless... Spiral Dance, Tornado Dance, Hishou Jinren-zan, Bogga Danga

3) Damage PA single target: This type does full on damage to one creature, usually a bigger one or a boss, and does all out damage but leaves the use open for attacks and cannot be easily canceled once started. Best used when ganging up on a creature a fellow party member has stun locked... Tornado Dance, Gravity Strike, Spinning Break,

4) Damage PA Multiple target: This PA is good for mobs or enemies with multiple hit boxes and it leaves the player open for attack, but it will not knock back, or knock down any enemy so the entire party can get a hit in and ravage the target/s with multiple PA hits, techs, or BAs. Gravity Dance Gravity Strike (first part) Tornado Break

If people didn't just spam one or two PAs, or if they took the time to just use the first part of the PA only as needed (Situational) then they could learn to be more effective...

Edit note: This is not a comprehensive list, just a list of the PAs I use the MOST in these situations. If you play around with your set up you can find a PA that works best for you...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-03 16:21 ]

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 06:21 PM

lol@Tornado Dance being listed 3 out of 4 for those options.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 06:25 PM

On 2007-07-03 16:21, Lonzell wrote:
lol@Tornado Dance being listed 3 out of 4 for those options.

It can be used in 3 out of 4 of those options but its best for a single attacking burst on a boss. Double sabers aren't made for damage, they are made to be a melee tool to assist a fighgunner as a viable two handed melee weapon since their lower atp doesn't suit the use of two handed swords. the PAs are meant for situational use more then the other melee weapon PAs so even though they do less damage they can be used in many different situations which is why a lot of fighgunners get a big head and decide they can take on the world...

Sekani

Jul 3, 2007, 06:27 PM

Devious, I said "melee-unfriendly", not melee-resistant. These are enemies where for various reasons it is disadvantageous to melee them instead of using a ranged (tech or bullet) attack. Some examples would be worms (jellen), kamatoze (360-degree dambarta), robots (difficult to get away from the explosion when they die), tengoghs (take forever to kill if you only use melee), and most of the bosses.

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 06:36 PM

On 2007-07-03 16:25, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-07-03 16:21, Lonzell wrote:
lol@Tornado Dance being listed 3 out of 4 for those options.

the PAs are meant for situational use more then the other melee weapon PAs so even though they do less damage they can be used in many different situations which is why a lot of fighgunners have a big dick and know that they can take on the world whenever they see fit...

Understandable.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 06:38 PM

On 2007-07-03 16:27, Sekani wrote:
Devious, I said "melee-unfriendly", not melee-resistant. These are enemies where for various reasons it is disadvantageous to melee them instead of using a ranged (tech or bullet) attack. Some examples would be worms (jellen), kamatoze (360-degree dambarta), robots (difficult to get away from the explosion when they die), tengoghs (take forever to kill if you only use melee), and most of the bosses.

Worms: Watch on the map when under ground take a couple slow steps back, use a stun-locking PA, or a trap PA combo as needed... (Guns are preferable but it can be done with skill and timing, plus I use normal hits on worms and I rarely get the jellen effect)

kamatoze: They are a prime candidate for a stun lock PA and actually if you use ranged attacks they're liable to charge at you...

Robots: Boo-hoo, one of a few enemies that you shouldn't face without a gun...

tengoghs: These guys are easy, you can wail on them all day because you can tell when they are going to do a burst of rafoi, or when they're gonna maul you if you pay attention. It takes awhile to kill them, big deal! Even with their melee resistance a beast fortefighter will be doing the same or more damage with an axe or saber as a cast with a gun. Newmans with high leveled techs win here though...

Still, out of all the enemies, that is like 4 if you couldn't use the tactics laid out above. there are countless enemies that get sliced and diced and no melee fighter should have reason to complain about the few enemies that are melee resistant... The only enemies that even make me mad are Goas...

Kylie

Jul 3, 2007, 06:46 PM

I don't really think it takes much skill to play PSU, but that's just me. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I think that if anyone learns the game well enough, they can be good, and knowledge and experience isn't really a skill to me... Either way, I'm excited about them fixing this because I've always found it dumb and cheap that your rank depends on other players and even NPCs. If it only depended on your deaths, then maybe it would be a lot better. I love how this discussion (of the penalties) always turns into someone defending their skills or strategies.

[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2007-07-03 16:48 ]

Sekani

Jul 3, 2007, 06:48 PM

Give me some credit man, I already know how to deal with all but one enemy in the game as a melee character, and that's Magas Magahna. You seem to be mistaking this for a "fortefighter sucks" rant. Re-check the part of Ian's post that I quoted.

P.S.: Gaozorans can't do much when they're on the ground.

XDeviousX

Jul 3, 2007, 06:57 PM

On 2007-07-03 16:46, Kylie wrote:
I don't really think it takes much skill to play PSU, but that's just me. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I think that if anyone learns the game well enough, they can be good, and knowledge and experience isn't really a skill to me... Either way, I'm excited about them fixing this because I've always found it dumb and cheap that your rank depends on other players and even NPCs. If it only depended on your deaths, then maybe it would be a lot better. I love how this discussion (of the penalties) always turns into someone defending their skills or strategies.

[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2007-07-03 16:48 ]

Actually, The thing I've been saying all along is the new death penalty system is just as flawed as the current. If everyone was rewarded based on a personal goal list, and the goals on the list were linked to the teams performance, that would help motivate team players. If the force types got extra points for healing and buffing other, both xp and mp since they aren't fighting as much, and hunter types got points for kills (obviously), and rangers got points for using traps efficiently, and everyone was also graded on using moon atomizers and star atomizers to heal each other. (along with moon atomizers being found in missions or player shops only) then there would be personal goals that when done would aid the group and give a group score and an individual score added to the group score so one person gets an A, and another an S based on their own merits and not whether you use moons or scapes... (Or a system close to that)

Lonzell

Jul 3, 2007, 07:05 PM

For Figunners Vs. Tengoghs.

If anyone else is in the party you are with are too lazy to trap these things, you do it for them. If you have Twin Mayalee lower their defense. Then fuck'em up with your machine gun. That is all.

Kylie

Jul 4, 2007, 11:22 AM

On 2007-07-03 16:57, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-07-03 16:46, Kylie wrote:
I don't really think it takes much skill to play PSU, but that's just me. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I think that if anyone learns the game well enough, they can be good, and knowledge and experience isn't really a skill to me... Either way, I'm excited about them fixing this because I've always found it dumb and cheap that your rank depends on other players and even NPCs. If it only depended on your deaths, then maybe it would be a lot better. I love how this discussion (of the penalties) always turns into someone defending their skills or strategies.

[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2007-07-03 16:48 ]

Actually, The thing I've been saying all along is the new death penalty system is just as flawed as the current. If everyone was rewarded based on a personal goal list, and the goals on the list were linked to the teams performance, that would help motivate team players. If the force types got extra points for healing and buffing other, both xp and mp since they aren't fighting as much, and hunter types got points for kills (obviously), and rangers got points for using traps efficiently, and everyone was also graded on using moon atomizers and star atomizers to heal each other. (along with moon atomizers being found in missions or player shops only) then there would be personal goals that when done would aid the group and give a group score and an individual score added to the group score so one person gets an A, and another an S based on their own merits and not whether you use moons or scapes... (Or a system close to that)

I think that's a little too much too ask for. =P However, I actually do like the idea of basing one's rank on one's performance. Not necessarily down to each item they use, but definitely by individual deaths (even though some deaths cannot be prevented). But oh well, it doesn't matter what us Americans and Europeans say, so I'm just counting my blessings because this system -broken or not- is better than what we have now.

[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2007-07-04 09:23 ]