spreads cheap or spells cheap?

[Robantifast]

I just had a massive debate with my friend about whether spells or spreads were cheap.

His case:
Spells were cheap because you get infinite healing (resta) and when you're not powerful enough, you just cast Shifta/Deband too power up and the like. (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about your arguement Rubric).

Spread Needles are not cheap because you need to be high level to use them so the quickness of the shot and the spread hitting all monsters wasn't as much of a help as I said it was. Spread Needles don't have added percentages like the hacked ones did on the Dreamcast, so they're not super powerful.

My case:
Spells are not cheap because you have to know exactly what spells to cast on monsters to kill them, Resta is good, but not that much of a help because you find Di/Trimates everywhere and if you run out, just keep telepipes on you. Rangers don't need as many spells because they can shoot from the door anyway. Forces can still get destroyed with spells, so you need a bit of skill just to survive.

Spread Needles are cheap because you can stand at the door and hammer enemies constantly, even if it doesn't do that much damage, and when they get close, you just run back in the door and let them go away. Rinse and repeat. No skill involved. Ya, there might not be percentages, but who needs them? If you do 100 damage per hit, you do 300 damage to every enemy in the room per combo, and after a few of those, they're dead. Not very high of a level is required.

Well there's our cases. Tell me what you think peoples. Oh and Rubric: I'm not dissing your playing style, I simply wish to know what everyone on the board thinks of this arguement. Do feel free to correct me if I don't have your case right. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[ABDUR101]

Neither are cheap really. Sure, an item like the spread needle should really only be used when you're offline and not just standing at the doorway to run away when something gets too close.

Techs aren't cheap, they are an integral part of the game. Spreads can be used cheaply, but thats the players fault and not the item. =/

[Robantifast]

Well, I suppose I see your point on the Spread ABDUR. I remember things like getting online with my FOmarl and going into a room with three level 100 RAmars all killing everything in the room before I can do anything. I hated Spreads from that point on. I mean really...if you get a spread are you really going to walk into the room and shoot monsters at point blank range? No, you'll stand at the door and shoot them. That's why I think they're cheap. Does it take much skill to do that? No. However, I am willing to concede on grounds that they're harder to find now and there aren't 27589163 hacked spreads floating everywhere...and when you get one it won't be quite as powerful because of the lack of percentages...or at least that's what I heard. I haven't played the GC version yet, so...*shrugs* I'm arguing based on the DC version. When the Pro Action Replay comes out I guess that'll change tho... I'm glad they're at least legitly findable now...don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against them, it's just when you plow through the game with it without gaining levels and then complain about not being able to beat ultimate mode at level 75...that's when I have a problem because that's not skill at all. It's cheap and it's not playing the game. *shrugs* Again, that's my opinion and it's not my style to play the game that way. I respect people who play that way until they begin bothering others with it. I don't see why spells can be considered cheap tho...anyone think they are and wanna explain why?

[Sedyne]

Both can be used cheaply. Then again...BOTH ARE USED TO GAIN EXP SO WHO CARES?!

[sonicblue]

On 2002-12-21 15:34, Robantifast wrote:
Spread Needles are cheap because you can stand at the door and hammer enemies constantly, even if it doesn't do that much damage, and when they get close, you just run back in the door and let them go away. Rinse and repeat. No skill involved. Ya, there might not be percentages, but who needs them? If you do 100 damage per hit, you do 300 damage to every enemy in the room per combo, and after a few of those, they're dead. Not very high of a level is required.Rafoie is cheap because you can stand at the door and hammer enemies constantly, even if it doesn't do that much damage, and when they get close, you just run back in the door and let them go away. Rinse and repeat. No skill involved. Ya, they may or may not have resistance to it, but who needs cares? If you do 100 damage per hit, you do 300 damage to every enemy in the room in no time, and after a few of those, they're dead. Not very high of a level is required.

See how that works both ways? In my opinion, cheap is when an attacker can kill multiple enemies in 3 attacks or less. Techs and spreads that aren't hacked won't be pulling that off.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sonicblue on 2002-12-21 19:11 ]</font>

[Ina]

Depends on the way u look at it. To me, Spread is the cheapest thing in pso. Spells cost TP, but spread doesnt, so spells cost meseta to use. Spread is faster to fire, but spells arent(unless u r high lvled force?). Forces cant use spread, but everyone can use spells..... so, spread is selfish/cheap/etc if used badly online, if not neither of them is cheap

[CajunSamurai]

To me, cheap is using a FAST shooting weapon that hits up to five monsters in a large cone-area for massive damage, and for FREE... with massive bonuses on said weapon. In other words, hacked S Rank Needles, which are nonexistant so far in PSO Episode 1&2, but pissed me off TERRIBLY in V2 when my poor FO was struggling to even get in a HIT.
Unhacked though, I'm usually cool with it, unless it's, say, a low level character with a pumped mag on a low difficulty scoring constant one hit kills with one. As long as I can get in a friggin' hit, I'm usually fine with whatever method of attack anyone is using.

Spells cheap though? That's almost funny to me. Whereas all it takes to do massive damage to an entire room of monsters for any non-FO is a little bit of ATA and an S Rank Needle, us FO need several things including:

-Technique disks, which are often difficult to find and expensive to buy... We even have to make some hefty trades for some of the higher level spells.

-Extremely high MST in order to learn spells that do damage even COMPARABLE to that of a strong needle, for high TP levels and for a little extra spell damage... It only takes (or at least, TOOK) a pretty modest amount of ATA to equip a Needle.

-Casting spells is NOT FREE. I play my FO like a true FO: PURE magic, not much else. So after clearing a room full of tough monsters, I've often used at least one trifluid. I usually have to restock fluids at least once during an Ultimate run, which, on average, costs me 40,000 meseta per restock. Belieeeeve me, that adds up.

-SKILL. It doesn't take a PSO expert to point in "the general direction" of an enemy and press the attack button a few times. FO need to constantly keep track of what monsters are in the room so they can hit them with the correct magic, and most spells are much slower than firing a quick volley of needles or two.

Those that say spells are cheap simply haven't played a FO correctly, if at all, IMO. I can understand how some would think Megid is cheap, but... hell, it hits so infrequently that it's just not worth using at all, IMO. When it does hit, be nice and give that FO a hand for wasting a quarter of their TP to finally hit that rag rappy. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

That almost qualified as a rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I'm sure I can even still find a few of my angered rants about how Needles were the antichrist, back in my V1 days... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Anyway, IMO: Needles were incredibly overpowered in V1, Needles were just as overpowered in V2 (with S Ranks, and to a pathetic degree with hacked S Ranks), and they're probably gonna cause just about as much trouble and bitching on this version. Fantastic EXP gaining device and I'll even admit to using an S Rank version on V2 (of course I earned it myself...after losing my S Rank Rifle http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif); it made level gaining from Lv110-120 a LOT less of a chore.
But bottom line... Hell YES, it's cheap! But, like I said: As long as I can get in hits on most monsters, I'm okay with any (LEGITIMATE) weapon.

Techniques are only now rivaling the amount of damage that other classes can do, but it's still just about as difficult to be a FO on this version as it was before (although I enjoy that aspect). Spells, cheap? *snort* When we can do 1500+ damage to Ultimate Ruins monsters in the same timeframe that a HU or a RA can, then maybe the claim of spells being cheap would make a little sense to me.

[malinko]

I think neither are CHEAP cuz needle you have to be REALLY close, almost as close as sword range...and it has WEAK damage. Its good for tagging enemies though. techs arent cheap either though cuz of TP, buying fluids $$$, and FO's cant use many good hitting weps (swords, guns etc...)

If needles were like Ver2 (180%) then that would be MUCH different..........maybe some day, hope not though.

[Rubric]

sorry to cause a big argument, but i still find spread needles legitimate weapons for a class that can use them. i, myself, can't use techniques and may be biased on that type of argument, but i have always used shot type weapons to get the desired effect. another problem i have is people lumping all of us spread needle users into one category, "stand in the door and fire", well, there is an art to shotgun combat, and i have perfected it. this counts for needles too. don't go putting me in a pile with pieces of shit who tryn to be cheap and gay with it.

[tipos85]

that is the dumbest thign i have ever heard!! u can stand in the door and shoot with any gun and any spell !!!

[Sunaj]

Back on version 1, the spread needles were the cheapest thing period, and single handedly (well, for the most part) made forces a waste of time and money. Magic did jack, and to even do minimal damage, you had to learn EVERY single enemies magic resistance. Nevermind even a weak, strong, strong combo was faster than a level 15 Razonde. I would've been better off making a Hunewearl becuase my fomarl had to RUSH constantly to maybe shoot a razonde or two before the humars and ramars shot three times and killed everything in the room. (She was my first, most used character and she was didn't hit 100 until months after my Humar did.) At least the Hunewearl got to use the needle, and could make more money. Magic was plain weak, a hucast with a needle would just plain get more exp. faster, cuase they just need to point in the general direction and get group exp and kill exp, while a force would get maybe one Razonde off, and no kill experience.
Even with a Hucast, the shifta/deband/resta/etc. advantage was more or less moot, since a hucast is just plain that much stronger than the other hu's, which meant damage meant less, and enemies died faster.

On version 2, it was similar once people got hacked 180 S-rank needles, but it very nice for my force to see them shoot and miss with their old ones. ST made things better for forces by increasing the effective of spells, locking higher spell levels for forces, and limiting the effectiveness of old weapons in Ultimate. (Which wasn't THAT good, but that's another topic...) But since Forces were that much more useful, most people were pretty considerate about not using the Spread Needle constantly, only busting it out for Endless Nightmare or a boss. Hu-mars/newearls were on a more even playing since s/d/j/z 15 were kinda weak in Ultimate anyways, and bombs were pretty good. Again, it comes down to personal perference.

Spread Needles are finally not cheap. Only rangers can use it, there's been far less duping/hacking than there was on the DC versions, and it was was weakened.

Both cases are fair, but the important thing I wanna point out is that magic is NOT free, normal spreads I find fine since that's the only way a Robot can get mass exp, and it's balanaced by it's weaknesses. On the GC, you can even make a (crappy) arguement that Robots dont need resta all that much since they regen HP, and Rangers will can be a bit farther away anyways. They even get bombs, with almost makes up for any Shifta/deband boost. (you can have waves of enemies kill each other, or a ice bomb means a few extra safe shots) Besides shifta and deband is almost meaningless on a force, and the remaining classes that get it, get it far slower, and are the "weaker" classes to begin with.

Robartifast, it seems your comparing ver. 1/2 with the GC version, is that correct..? If it is, Spread Needles are far more balanced now, as are spells, so it really comes down to personal perference. I personally just gravitate towards magic using characters becuase I find using Ra-foie/zonde to get a good piece of exp is better than using a Needle, or a spread type weapon as a Robot. I also went with a Ramarl since i do appreciate using high level support spells, and Ra spells for exp. But i won't actually hold it against a Racaseal to use a Spread Needle with an ice bomb when I'm walking into a room with S/D, and cast J/Z on the enemies.

[CorneliusPower]

On 2002-12-21 19:59, CajunSamurai wrote:
To me, cheap is using a FAST shooting weapon that hits up to five monsters in a large cone-area for massive damage, and for FREE... with massive bonuses on said weapon. In other words, hacked S Rank Needles, which are nonexistant so far in PSO Episode 1&2, but pissed me off TERRIBLY in V2 when my poor FO was struggling to even get in a HIT.
Unhacked though, I'm usually cool with it, unless it's, say, a low level character with a pumped mag on a low difficulty scoring constant one hit kills with one. As long as I can get in a friggin' hit, I'm usually fine with whatever method of attack anyone is using.

Spells cheap though? That's almost funny to me. Whereas all it takes to do massive damage to an entire room of monsters for any non-FO is a little bit of ATA and an S Rank Needle, us FO need several things including:

-Technique disks, which are often difficult to find and expensive to buy... We even have to make some hefty trades for some of the higher level spells.

-Extremely high MST in order to learn spells that do damage even COMPARABLE to that of a strong needle, for high TP levels and for a little extra spell damage... It only takes (or at least, TOOK) a pretty modest amount of ATA to equip a Needle.

-Casting spells is NOT FREE. I play my FO like a true FO: PURE magic, not much else. So after clearing a room full of tough monsters, I've often used at least one trifluid. I usually have to restock fluids at least once during an Ultimate run, which, on average, costs me 40,000 meseta per restock. Belieeeeve me, that adds up.

-SKILL. It doesn't take a PSO expert to point in "the general direction" of an enemy and press the attack button a few times. FO need to constantly keep track of what monsters are in the room so they can hit them with the correct magic, and most spells are much slower than firing a quick volley of needles or two.

Those that say spells are cheap simply haven't played a FO correctly, if at all, IMO. I can understand how some would think Megid is cheap, but... hell, it hits so infrequently that it's just not worth using at all, IMO. When it does hit, be nice and give that FO a hand for wasting a quarter of their TP to finally hit that rag rappy. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

That almost qualified as a rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I'm sure I can even still find a few of my angered rants about how Needles were the antichrist, back in my V1 days... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Anyway, IMO: Needles were incredibly overpowered in V1, Needles were just as overpowered in V2 (with S Ranks, and to a pathetic degree with hacked S Ranks), and they're probably gonna cause just about as much trouble and bitching on this version. Fantastic EXP gaining device and I'll even admit to using an S Rank version on V2 (of course I earned it myself...after losing my S Rank Rifle http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif); it made level gaining from Lv110-120 a LOT less of a chore.
But bottom line... Hell YES, it's cheap! But, like I said: As long as I can get in hits on most monsters, I'm okay with any (LEGITIMATE) weapon.

Techniques are only now rivaling the amount of damage that other classes can do, but it's still just about as difficult to be a FO on this version as it was before (although I enjoy that aspect). Spells, cheap? *snort* When we can do 1500+ damage to Ultimate Ruins monsters in the same timeframe that a HU or a RA can, then maybe the claim of spells being cheap would make a little sense to me.

Righteous!!! I totally agree with Cajun.

[ChokingVictim]

it takes skill to be cheap with spells...


how many spread needle junkies know the magic resistance of every enemy?

although you can be dirty cheap with razonde and gifoi if you know what you're doing...

but i got much more respect for folks who be cheap with magic then twits who pop in a room for 2 combos and pop out

[CrashCat]

Someone in a game I was in with my FOmarl decided to bitch about some poor girl using a spread, which did a whopping 10 to 15 damage where we were playing (normal ruins). I don't know why he had a bug up his butt, because I was more than able to Zalure everything in the room and get MY exp tag before anything died with such a low damage spread picking away at them. I'm sure a spread could be cheap, but it still comes down to the damage. Rafoie can be very cheap too, of course http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

I just TRY to be considerate and whatever I'm doing, whoever I'm playing, use common sense and don't wipe out an entire room with something before anyone can attack. If you watch that then you won't be cheap in my book.

[SaitoH]

Techs can be cheap if you have high level techs on a low level character. My FOmar was able to kill anything with one spell on normal. On ultimate it's a different story though ...

I do find spreads to be cheap though ... their fast rate of fire makes them so powerful. I don't mind people using them as long as they show some restraint.

^w^

[Robantifast]

Eh...I suppose I was talking more about the DC spread needle and S Rank Spread since I still have a few days until I get a Gamecube. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'm glad they did even spreads out on the Gamecube version so it's not a "super shotgun" and more...(composite needle HAH). I'm glad to concede my arguement of spreads on the gamecube being cheap. I do consider the rate of fire very fast tho, but as long as they're not duped and people don't ruin other people's fun by hogging EXP I'm alright with it.

I'm glad most of you can see how magic isn't cheap...is Rafoie really that much more powerful on the GC? I don't see how you could possibly be cheap with high level spells because you have to be high level anyway and it absolutely eats your TP. When you run out of TP and fluids (which happened quickly on DC correct me if the GC is different) Resta can't save you and neither can Ryuker or Shifta/Deband/Jellen/Zalure. It's all about moderating your spells and meleeing when necessary. I suppose melee isn't much of an option for newman forces, so that's why they have higher MST to compensate. *shrugs* I suppose you could call Forces weak because they aren't as physically powerful. That's why you play a FORCE to use SPELLS. To call people stupid for playing a Force is to say that their playing style is dumb. And that's not very smart because insulting a force as an android = no Resta, no Shifta/Deband for you because they won't play with you. PSO stands for Phantasy Star Online. ONLINE multiplayer games require teamwork, and that's where forces come in. Single player it's more difficult, but that's the path Forces take. And this is about to become a rant so I'm gonna stop now...

I suppose it's better to look at the person's playing style over their weapons...that's what can make Spreads/Magic cheap.

[Subliminalgroove]

The way I see it, there are a variety of different weapons all designed for a specific purpose. I don't know about the rest of you, but I genrally lug up to four different weapons to get the job done. For example: with my HUnewearl, I carry a decent high power weapon as my mainstay, when I begin to get crowded by a couple of toughies I switch to a sword of some kind, if there is a mob of guys I would rather stay AWAY from I yoink out a slicer of some kind to weaken them up while they come at me, and finally when there is one bugger I'd like to stay away from but take out quickly I whip out a nicely ground mechgun type weapon.

The same goes for the rangers... there are weapons that ST designed to be effective and smartly used in specific situations, the shot-classes are one type. The same can also be said about magic... Ra-foi can decimate one group of baddies while only warming up another.

As far as declaring a class of weapons cheap... Any weapon or spell used (im)properly can be cheap. And as far as weapon taking skill out of the picture, (I'm gonna get flamed for this, but its gotta be said) There is not TOO much in the way of skill required for this game. In fact, it is very easy to liken PSO with Diablo 2. Run around, click a button a few times, run in a circle, click a button a few times, access a potion (-mate), click a button a few times, kill enemy! YIPPIE! Don't get me wrong, I love both games... I'm just callin it as I see it...

Sub

[haterade]

On 2002-12-21 20:47, Rubric wrote:
well, there is an art to shotgun combat, and i have perfected it. this counts for needles too.


Haha... this by far, is one of the most retarded things I've heard...today. "an art to shotgun combat"!? Can we give this guy a hell no!? What the hell is so hard about standing around with a needle and shooting everything? Needles are the most skilless weapons EVER. A shotgun is slightly different because they actually take time to shoot, allowing you to take a hit. Comparing a needle to Rafoie, magic that COSTS you something, AND magic the does NOT fire nearly as quickly is ridiculous!

[Robantifast]

Now now haterade, we should respect other people's playing style. Personally, I have no clue about any "art" to shotgun combat. But, I haven't used many of them so I wouldn't know. If you'd care to show us evidence that there is no art without throwing insults I think that would be far more helpful. Thanks pal. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Subliminalgroove: I don't see how you can say there is no skill involved. As far as sword combat goes, I can say that there is.

1. Sometimes a three hit combo will not work on enemies, so you have to do a two hit combo. It keeps the enemies from hitting you. It takes skill to know when to do this.

2. Enemies walk in seemingly eratic patterns, yet it is possible to grasp when they turn, when they hit, and when they run. It takes skill to know when to turn and run and when to keep hacking them.

3. Different weapons have different attributes. Picking up a Frost Gladius is one thing, using it correctly is different. You have to know how to combo correctly to get the special attack to hit. Normal Hard Special doesn't always work if the first hit misses. It takes skill to use a weapon like that.

And as far as spells go:

1. Knowing which spell to cast is very helpful in certain situations. RaFoie may work great on one type of enemy, but when you switch to another, it does 0 damage. Knowing what spell to cast takes skill. Yes, Grants is very powerful towards a lot of different types of enemies, but it takes forever and a day to cast. Which brings me to my next point:

2. Spell casting times. If you wait for enemies to bear down on you to hit them with RaFoie or any other spell, you will most likely succeed in doing a moderate amount of damage while allowing the enemies to simultaneously hit you, causing extreme amounts of damage. This could easily kill an unskilled player. It takes skill to know when to cast spells, when to run, how to Resta without getting hit, and the like.

As far as guns go, I'm not really sure because I haven't used them much. From my little bit of experience, I'd have to say, just like the other two, timing is the key. You have to know when to turn and shoot and when to run.

So, I believe that it does take a bit of skill to play PSO well, but not as much as other games like say Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels (whom Rubric happens to have beaten and can tell you all about how much skill it takes).

[ITO]

On 2002-12-21 16:07, ABDUR101 wrote:
Neither are cheap really. Sure, an item like the spread needle should really only be used when you're offline and not just standing at the doorway to run away when something gets too close.

Techs aren't cheap, they are an integral part of the game. Spreads can be used cheaply, but thats the players fault and not the item. =/



ABDUR101, You tha man! Let 'em know! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Nah but I agree with you. Wow, that's a first.

[TedEdFred]

Needles are cheap. But, cheap does not equal bad.

The problem is bad players, not bad weapons/techs.

[ChokingVictim]

On 2002-12-22 11:24, Robantifast wrote:


So, I believe that it does take a bit of skill to play PSO well, but not as much as other games like say Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels (whom Rubric happens to have beaten and can tell you all about how much skill it takes).



my own personal feat- beating SMB the original without getting so much as a scratch on me...yes i cheated and did the warps but hell... i think that gets some props