PSU: Guntecher debate

[Rett]

Hey I just noticed that lots of the Guntecher stuff is old so I wanted to start up a new debate

I want people's expirances

GUNTECHER

Newman or Cast ?
Best Weapon ?
Support or just doesn't like to kill stuff alone ?



Personally I say Newman Guntecher with Bows and Dual Handguns and I resent the fact that everyone thinks I go around healing every body all the time. So my Hp sucks but that doesn't mean I don't kill. I play with my wartecher friend most of the time and we make a great combo.

[PALRAPPYS]

What about Human GT?

But it depends on what stats you want really...

Bows and Xbows I heard were good. Try em out.

[PJ]

I'd say human or CAST.

Because GT's TP and tech level limit pre-AoI is so terrible, they're pretty much just shitty Fortegunners.

[Kylie]

I say CAST Guntecher because spells on GT are really obsolete... So my instinct would naturally point me towards the race with the better ATA, ATP, and HP. Newman guntechers are fine, but my opinion is that CASTs have the better stats for it.

[Rett]

First of all if your are going to be a Cast Guntecher than just be a fortegunner what spells do you want to cast anyway ? Secondly Newman Guntechers are good because atleast they have some TP unlike a human Guntecher. Also if anyone has any good tips for lvling a xbow then spill them that dang thing is a pain to lvl

[EarthRagon]

I agree with kylie for now.....But as soon as AoI comes out HU will make the best guntecher,If u go newman do Acrotecher.So after expansion,IMO,Cast GT are a bad idea.

Also there readjusting the stats for race and class,you should check those out,lol

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EarthRagon on 2007-09-09 10:11 ]</font>

[amtalx]

Mobility weapons are your bread and butter so definitely go with Xbows/Machinguns/Twinnies. You get S-rank bows in AoI so that can be your primary stationary weapon. Personally, I think casing attack spells as a GT is silly so TP doesn't matter. Go with Cast. However, some don't like the gimped resta so Human/Newman is also a possibility but your physical attacks will suffer. I would stay away from beast. I've seen beasts try to use guns in S2 Dulk Fakis...if we weren't screwing around doing suicide runs I would have been PO'ed about them being dead weight.

[Kylie]

On 2007-09-09 10:06, Rett wrote:
First of all if your are going to be a Cast Guntecher than just be a fortegunner what spells do you want to cast anyway ? Secondly Newman Guntechers are good because atleast they have some TP unlike a human Guntecher. Also if anyone has any good tips for lvling a xbow then spill them that dang thing is a pain to lvl


Same could be said about newmans. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif Why have them as a GT and not a FT? CASTs mostly go GT for the weapons they don't get on FG - bows, cards, s-rank twin guns. The same reason I bet any newman would go GT, too (for more versatility).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2007-09-09 10:18 ]</font>

[Rett]

Well for Newmans I would say its the best alternative instead of being a foreTecher. So you are sick of casting and want to shoot things but you want a decent resta and do decent damage with the bow hmmm ah Newman Guntecher

[Rett]

Well for Newmans I would say its the best alternative instead of being a foreTecher. So you are sick of casting and want to shoot things but you want a decent resta and do decent damage with the bow hmmm ah Newman Guntecher

[Rett]

On , wrote:

[Rett]

ok I am obivously new to posting instead of just reading so forgive all these posts

[Pillan]

Personally, I’m in favor of Cast GT, but any race can do a decent job as GT the way it’s set up.

Right now Newman is probably the worst off of the GT choices because a GT’s tech damage/time can never keep up with their range damage/time, even on a range resistant enemy. Of course with the double TP they had in the AoI beta, a Newman’s Diga will jump from 800 high to around 1200 high, but that’s still just on par with a Cast GT’s crossbow damage against a range resistant enemy in the same amount of time. (I’m not going to include the 10 level gain in that calculation because the bullets gain 10 levels as well.) So, even with the TP buff, I’d say the main advantage of a non-Cast on this class is that they heal more.

As far as best weapon, well, crossbows, twin handguns, cards, and bows are the weapons you normally see GT’s use. Most GT’s give up on machineguns because their ATP is too low, but you can do a decent amount of damage with them as a Cast, plus they’re incredibly accurate, so the damage/time is very high just because you’re not missing. I don’t really recommend bows because once you have your bullets above 21, they switch from one of the highest damage/time weapons to the absolute lowest, aside from special case enemies such as Zamvapas. Also rifles are pretty good, but I can see them becoming less necessary with the enemy STA nerf.

One of the most common rumors is that GT is purely a support class. Yes, you can play as support, but the class isn’t limited to that if you want to do more. Really, a GT with its buffs can out damage an unbuffed fG with any high power weapon, plus they have cards and their overpowered accuracy plus element mods. If you manage to get an A rank attack unit, you beat an unbuffed fG’s damage with anything with more ATP than an ungrinded Deathmaker. However, the serious accuracy deficiency will always lower your real damage/time below that of an fG (unless you’re spamming cards), but I’d assume that’s why GT got level 30 support techs in the AoI beta.

[KaffeKane]

On 2007-09-09 10:14, amtalx wrote:
I would stay away from beast.


Hey! 3:< I did fine as a Beast Guntecher, the only problem I had was how weak my Resta was! *Heal spam for Monomate amounts of HP* Having heard that GT gets a better TP arrangement in the expansion, that won't be a problem to me anymore, though. :3

[Hrith]

Human is the best race for them.

Cast vs Newman is rough. Shitty TP vs shitty ATP =/

Beast is Shitty TP + shitty ATA, so yeah, bad choice.

AoI should make Casts better, which is stupid, in a way.
Unless Sonic Team ___thinks___ and makes racial bonuses about five times what they are now.

[KaffeKane]

On 2007-09-09 12:29, Hrith wrote:
Beast is Shitty TP + shitty ATA, so yeah, bad choice.



Eh, only thing it does to me is stops me from using better equipment. At least as a GT I have the ATA for cards, where if I went FT, I wouldn't. :<

[Rett]

Newmans are the most balanced class for Guntecher
2nd best ata
best TP

they get gimped on the HP some but having good TP for resta makes up some
plus the low MST for casts is so unattractive

I like a girl that can think personally

plus after exspansion Newmans will be the best Guntechers because of the double TP stat coming

[imfanboy]

I'm the author of the guntecher thread, and I'm waiting until AotI comes out before putting it through major revision.

Some of the things I'll be working on:

What race is statistically best, with the TP modifiers removed? Remember in AotI it'll be 100% of TP at GT10, so wand restrictions will be lowered.

What brand of weapons is to be preferred, now that we'll have multiple A-rank brands to choose from?

With their updated support role (support techs at 30), how will they fit into groups as supporters?


There are a ton of questions that I have, and that won't be answered until early December probably. But that's not so long away, no?

[pokefiend]

On 2007-09-09 10:14, amtalx wrote:
However, some don't like the gimped resta so Human/Newman is also a possibility but your physical attacks will suffer.

Male Human Guntecher
ATP: 603
TP: 356

Male Cast Guntecher
ATP: 636
TP: 209

XD Human Supremency!

[Pillan]

Don’t forget to add in the 484 vs. 542 ATA difference. With low accuracy weapons like crossbows and base stat dependent ones like machineguns, it makes the small ATP gap look even more significant.

Of course human still has the point that they can heal more and equip better wands.


EDIT:


On 2007-09-09 13:12, Rett wrote:
plus the low MST for casts is so unattractive


It’s 103 vs. 266 for the males right now. That’s around 40 less damage per tech on neutral armor. I’d personally say that’s just on par with the 250 HP difference.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-09 14:37 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

Actually, I've been playing with a level 90 fG 10 female newman Fortegunner, and comparing with my level 75 fG 6 female BEAST, I don't miss any more often using a level 21 crossbow bullet...

While USING a Solid/Power S.

In Train Rescue S2.

Past a certain point, ATA simply doesn't matter. Cast ATA is overrated except in classes such as Fortefighter, Protranser, or even Wartecher, which have low native ATA.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-09 14:49, imfanboy wrote:
Actually, I've been playing with a level 90 fG 10 female newman Fortegunner, and comparing with my level 75 fG 6 female BEAST, I don't miss any more often using a level 21 crossbow bullet...

While USING a Solid/Power S.

In Train Rescue S2.

Past a certain point, ATA simply doesn't matter. Cast ATA is overrated except in classes such as Fortefighter, Protranser, or even Wartecher, which have low native ATA.


You were both fighting level 100 enemies? I’d like to say that you just couldn’t see the difference because the zeroes were overshadowed due to point blanking, but I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. It’s not like a Beast misses half the time while a Cast hits 99% of the time; the difference is more like 68% vs 75%, which is somewhat difficult to count when you’re not trying.

If you actually look at ATA values, a Beast WT PA spamming with any melee weapon it can equip has ATA on par with a Cast GT with a crossbow just because the crossbow drops your ATA 60%, so the Cast ATA becomes even more overrated on those classes. The difference being that even though hunter ATA is a lot lower than ranger, it basically doubles with the weapon they equip and then gets modified by 80-90% with the skill while rangers get low ATA weapons and 60-75% bullet arts. Protranser being the exception only because it can use ranged damage, so the Cast base ATA is important. Basically, Cast ATA is BS on the hunter classes because it’s only like 2% more hits at the cost of the 5% damage lost from Beasts, while the ranger class is entirely dependent on base stats, even though the accuracy gap between the races is never more than 10% (unless fighting an Svaltus as a crossbow spamming FG). Nothing right now has more ATA than a male Cast Fighgunner spamming Buten.

I’ve been studying my character’s ATA a lot just because I wanted to see how much of a difference there was between GT and fG, and I can tell you that I can count the difference when I switch between the classes with a crossbow and even more so when I put on and off a Solid / Power S as GT. (With or without the unit on fG, the difference is entirely negligible because fG’s accuracy mod is overpowered.)

Of course I can’t prove to you that you miscounted or that I didn’t, so you can really go either way with this, plus there are lots of people that swear there is no difference between Cast and Beast fG accuracy. I say it’s 5-8%, depending on the weapon.


EDIT:

Sorry, forgot about the first ult shotgun and ult bow PAs. A GT or fG using either of those beats a Buten spamming FG.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-09 15:17 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

the point in the drop in ata in the most extreme cases when using the same weapon is usually minimal. and in cases where it isn't, a beast's atp easly makes up for a few extra 0s.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-09 15:44, NIloklives wrote:
the point in the drop in ata in the most extreme cases when using the same weapon is usually minimal. and in cases where it isn't, a beast's atp easly makes up for a few extra 0s.


Really? I would say an 8% accuracy drop for 5% more damage isn’t that great. Of course that does mean Beasts really do beat Casts with some of the weapons (rifles on fG; maybe even twin handguns at this point), but the higher output weapons have either lower ATA mods (shotguns, crossbows, grenades), higher base stat dependence (machineguns), or add so much ATP that the damage difference is as small as the accuracy gap (lasers). So, yeah, you could easily argue Beast fG was the second best fG and even suggest that Nano Blasts make them better, but it’s a very tiny gap between the two as that class.


However, GT is a totally different story (outside of cards and bows), where the smallest ATA increases actually make a significant difference just because your ATA isn’t saturated. That and we’re talking about a 5% or so accuracy drop AND a 2-3% damage gap between Casts and humans, making the Cast just kill things that much faster at the cost of a 30% TP gap, which really can’t be used for much more than healing.

So, really, it’s just Cast with the highest damage and effect output for dealing around 70% of a Newman’s Resta in the long run (in addition to SUVs), versus human with lower damage and lower effect output while dealing nearly 90% of a Newman’s Resta in the long run, versus Newman with even lower damage and a higher effect output than human while dealing the highest Resta and being the only GT that will even want to consider using techs for damage. You could add in Beast, but I haven’t bothered studying their GT performance aside from cards and bows, which throws them on par with Casts in terms of damage and effect output and gives them something like 75% of a Newman’s Resta.

You can add evasion and things like that into the argument if you want. I’d say the HP mod on Casts makes up for the MST and EVP loss easily. Of course you can argue that Beasts have more of all 3, but you have to deal with the accuracy loss. That and GT is the easiest class to dodge with in general...

I just lean toward Cast because I don’t mind casting Resta a second time and I see no need for tech damage when the ranged damage/time is higher even in the worst case scenarios.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-09 16:38 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

I play with beast GTs and they really don't miss that much. as a Human GT I miss even less. you can say thet ata isn't that saturated on GTs, but My female human has iirc 466 ata which is high enough unless you're saying that the 30 ata difference between my GT and a male beast FG is even noteworthy.

ata is generally high enough in either situation. female beast GT may suffer more than I think form the ata loss, but humans do just fine. you have to remember they get a race donus that helps to offset some of their lowerstats. in the end it works out fairly well.

[Pillan]

As clarification, I’m not saying human GT sucks, I’m just saying Casts have more ATP and ATA, meaning, regardless of how meaningless the ATA and ATP difference, the Cast will always be better off in ranged damage, even with the bonus taken into account.

Every race will do alright as GT or any class really. I mean, aside from fT, the actual output differences between the races never exceed 10% (though NB and SUV attacks make it a little larger/smaller depending on the class). So, yeah, outside of tech damage, we’re always talking about fairly small numbers that anyone can simply shrug off and say “who cares?”

I mean, we're talking about a Cast getting 16 out of 20 shots and dealing 10 more damage than a human's 15 out of 20. So, yeah, it's more, but you could argue being able to heal a bit more more is worth that loss.


EDIT:

Of course these gaps will become even larger since weapon rank isn't really increasing anymore, stat multipliers and character levels are increasing, and enemy DFP, MST, and EVP is increasing. Thus the best class and race combinations will look even better.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-09 17:02 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

No, I was soloing Train S2 as a Beast and Newearl seperately - I've retired Steyr AUG from mostly active play until I get my other characters up there, so I'm playing Champagne as a Fortegunner *points to signature*

Now, the problem with Train is the bloody beasts in there. I was noticing NO difference in time at all to kill the various beast mobs in there between my level 90 char and my level 75. I have to therefore assume that there's an upper limit on ATA value.

[HaydenX]

My character Funky.GUN (male human) did o.k. with GT. Most of the damage you'll get as a GT is gonna come from SE anyway (rifles rifles rifles). The only problem with human male GT is the somewhat gimped ATA (most important stat for the class), but the ATP on a human male isn't bad. xbows, cards, dualies and rifles (maybe bows, I don't like 'em, but W.E) will be about all you'll use anyway (not incl. wands). Daggers are o.k. too.

Oh, and if you have mayalee prism, the laser cannon ain't bad. By race, I think that the only one which would be completely gimped as a GT is the beast.

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-09 14:49, imfanboy wrote:
Past a certain point, ATA simply doesn't matter. Cast ATA is overrated except in classes such as Fortefighter, Protranser, or even Wartecher, which have low native ATA.Fortefighter has better ATA than Guntecher >_>

Guntecher has one of the lowest ATA in the game, dude.

87/10 female cast Fortefighter:
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/anga_dugrega_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_robado_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/tornado_break_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/dus_daggas_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/rensan_senshou-ga_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/senten_kanzan-ga_ff.png

87/10 female cast Fortegunner:
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/burning_shot_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/barada_riga_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/boma_diga_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/plasma_prism_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/grav_hit_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/yak_megiga_fg.png

My Fortegunner does not use twin handguns or machineguns, but figures for those would have been nice.

As you can see, several FG PAs have less ATA than FF PAs =/

Imagine Guntecher, who uses mostly the same PAs a Fortegunner does, but with 35% less base ATA (humans, newmans), 40% less base ATA (beasts), or 46% less base ATA (casts).



On 2007-09-09 15:44, NIloklives wrote:
the point in the drop in ata in the most extreme cases when using the same weapon is usually minimal. and in cases where it isn't, a beast's atp easly makes up for a few extra 0s.I have tested that for all classes (except Fortetecher, duh), and it's only true for Fortefighter.
Casts and humans have better DPS than beasts for the Wartecher, Guntecher, Protranser and Fighgunner classes.
Casts have much, much better DPS than beasts for the Fortegunner class.

Sure, in some cases the difference was not very big, especially compared to human, but if damage was the reason you picked beast, well, it was the wrong pick.

[Niloklives]

raw ATA wise GTs rank second highest pull out the GT comparisons rather than posting your regular biased info.

Same gender, race and PAs both classes max level and say that again.

[Hrith]

What is the point of raw ATA since you are never going to fight bare-handed http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Your perpetual lack of argument is laughable.

Guntechers and Fortegunners do not even use regular attacks (with guns, anyway), not ever, so the only figure that can be factually taken into account is the ATA after the PA modifier, which I posted above for Fortegunner and Fortefighter.

I used striclty factual figures, so where's the bias in it? tell me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ok, so Lv87/10 female cast Guntecher (no pictures this time, too lazy):
(509 + 188) / 75% = 523 ATA (Burning Shot)
(509 + 135) / 70% = 450 ATA (Barada Riga)
(509 + 104) / 62% = 380 ATA (Boma Diga, can't use, but whatever, the figures still show)
(509 + 160) / 73% = 488 ATA (Plasma Prism)
(509 + 146) / 75% = 491 ATA (Grav Hit)
(509 + 156) / 60% = 399 ATA (Yak Megiga)

Fortegunner / Guntecher
632 / 523 for Burning Shot
553 / 450 for Barada Riga
470 / 380 for Boma Diga
594 / 488 for Plasma Prism
600 / 491 for Grav Hit
486 / 399 for Yak Megiga

The difference in actual ATA ranges from 87 to 109, lol... I think I made myself clear.

Let it be clear that I'm not trying to say GT is a bad class, I'm just comparing ATA.

Like I said above, the raw ATA of Fortefighter may be lower, the actual ATA -- the one that matters when you actually play -- is on par with Fortegunner's, and higher than Guntecher's, in quite a few situations.
Dus Daggas, one of the most used Fortefighter PA, has noticeably higher ATA than a Fortegunner or Guntecher using crossbows, another widely used set of PAs.

Unless you use bows/rifles most of the time (lol crappy DPS), Fortefighter will have a comparable ATA statistic to the two gunner classes.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-09 22:12, imfanboy wrote:
Now, the problem with Train is the bloody beasts in there. I was noticing NO difference in time at all to kill the various beast mobs in there between my level 90 char and my level 75. I have to therefore assume that there's an upper limit on ATA value.


There is something like an upper limit simply because of the weird ratio function between ATA and EVP. Really, you only need like 150 ATA to hit level 100 mobs half the time, 225 to hit them 60% of the time, 350 for 70% of the time, 600 for 80% of the time, 1350 for 90% of the time, and 14850 for 99% of the time (which I’ll assume gets rounded to 100% of the time).

Everyone is somewhere between 350 and 600 ATA, so we’ll always see attacks that land within 10% of one another, which anyone could easily shrug off and say is exactly the same. And that’s also why you can’t see the difference between solid/power on any classes besides GT, WT and gun using FGs and PTs.


Oh, yeah, just to add to the GT accuracy comparison, level 87 GT 10 Caseal (509 ATA) with mechs and cards:

Machinegun (Beam Vulcanic): 495

Card (Mira-kikami): 556

[biggabertha]

Thank you Hrith, man, I always thought it was odd that I was landing hits better than the Fortegunners in my team at one point and I know now, why. Heh, it's a damn good thing they didn't leave Anga Dugrega with the low accuracy modifier so it's actually pretty good now.

I also never realised how badly the gun's PA affected such a massive base ATA on Fortegunners, so much that Dus Daggas 20 beats the heck out of any of the Yak PAs for accuracy. I guess Gunners aren't so high and might in the ATA department after all.

A very informative post that's slated my opinions on which race to choose my Guntecher to be (Human). It's still going to be hard to argue the fact that people will look at their ATA and go: "It's over nine thousand!!!" or soemthign like that..

[Rett]

I think its given if you want to have the best ata and do the most damage with bullets the the pure class is better. Being a Fortegunners will give you more damage with bullets of course but ata is not the only factor in what class is better. With every class in this game their are trade offs.
Fortegunner is fine if all you want to do is shoost things yet Guntecher is for those who prefer just a bit more than just shoosting things. For Guntecher you give up some ata yet you gain other abilities that fortegunners don't have.
I don't know about you guys but during S-ranks I have to heal alot (the little beastys love charging the gunner, I thought they were just happy to see me but after I fly across the room I decided they weren't),

so I will gladly give up the ata just to be able to shoot and pull out a wand and heal my self. When you run out of mates your kinda up the creek without a paddle. So really what class is better depends on your preferance, the same is true for races. Yeah Casts are great gunners and have good hp yet when they go to newdais and be on the receiving end of a huge barta from a S or S2 spawn of Gomon that Hp goes away rather quickly, where as Humans get medium stats all around and Newmans get less ata and defense than casts yet they have better MST so they aren't so effected by those annoying magic attacks. Thus it all depends on your preferance



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rett on 2007-09-10 09:42 ]</font>

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-09-10 09:31, Rett wrote:
Thus it all depends on your preferance


That's basically what it's always boiled down to. Except for Fortetecher, one race isn't game-breakingly better than another.

[Rett]

You mean making my cast a fortetecher is a bad idea ? LoL

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-09-10 09:39, Rett wrote:
You mean making my cast a fortetecher is a bad idea ? LoL

Only if you're a stat elitist whore. If you just want to have fun with a combination most would look down upon, then you are awesome.

Besides, robots using magic? Come on, that's awesome.

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-10 07:14, Pillan wrote:
There is something like an upper limit simply because of the weird ratio function between ATA and EVP. Really, you only need like 150 ATA to hit level 100 mobs half the time, 225 to hit them 60% of the time, 350 for 70% of the time, 600 for 80% of the time, 1350 for 90% of the time, and 14850 for 99% of the time (which I’ll assume gets rounded to 100% of the time).

Everyone is somewhere between 350 and 600 ATA, so we’ll always see attacks that land within 10% of one another, which anyone could easily shrug off and say is exactly the same. And that’s also why you can’t see the difference between solid/power on any classes besides GT, WT and gun using FGs and PTs.And where did you get those figures? >_>

If you think 250 ATA means 10% hit rate... well, think again.
Or just go test it yourself, it's very far from the truth.


Oh, yeah, just to add to the GT accuracy comparison, level 87 GT 10 Caseal (509 ATA) with mechs and cards:

Machinegun (Beam Vulcanic): 495

Card (Mira-kikami): 556which PAs?


On 2007-09-10 09:20, biggabertha wrote:
I guess Gunners aren't so high and might in the ATA department after all.They are because they can use PAs with a 60% ATA modifier and still rock http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


people will look at their ATA and go: "It's over nine thousand!!!" or something like that...People do that for anything they have over you, even if it's a minimal advantage which comes with a huge drawback >_>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-10 13:00 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-10 12:39, Hrith wrote:

If you think 250 ATA means 10% hit rate... well, think again.
Or just go test it yourself, it's very far from the truth.



If memory serves he did, hence the ATA/EVP formula. 250 ATA makes a HUGE difference in the number of misses you see, but that's comparing changes in a low-probability event and ignoring the fact that most attacks hit anyway.

The difference is going to be a much bigger deal in some cases like buffed Deljabans in Hive S2, where they're pushing enough EVP to beat the odds against low-ATA attackers.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-10 12:39, Hrith wrote:

On 2007-09-10 07:14, Pillan wrote:
There is something like an upper limit simply because of the weird ratio function between ATA and EVP. Really, you only need like 150 ATA to hit level 100 mobs half the time, 225 to hit them 60% of the time, 350 for 70% of the time, 600 for 80% of the time, 1350 for 90% of the time, and 14850 for 99% of the time (which I’ll assume gets rounded to 100% of the time).

Everyone is somewhere between 350 and 600 ATA, so we’ll always see attacks that land within 10% of one another, which anyone could easily shrug off and say is exactly the same. And that’s also why you can’t see the difference between solid/power on any classes besides GT, WT and gun using FGs and PTs.

And where did you get those figures? >_>

If you think 250 ATA means 10% hit rate... well, think again.
Or just go test it yourself, it's very far from the truth.


Simple back calculation. During my countless hours of bullet leveling, I found that the equation looks something like [hit rate] = ATA/(ATA + EVP/5) and I just did that backwards to figure out the accuracy values for a certain hit rate.

As you noticed, I said 250 ATA 62.5% hit rate, not 10%. I said 350-600 ATA translates to a 70-80% hit rate against normal EVP enemies, which means EVERYTHING will appear to hit between 2/3 and 4/5, regardless of class, race, etc., assuming your arts are all above 21 and excluding special cases like Mayalee Fury.

EDIT:

I think I got what you were asking backwards. Adding 250 ATA from 350 gives you a 10% increase in hit rate, but adding 250 from 600 gives you a 5% increase and adding 250 from that gives you a 3% increase and so on and so on until you get to that rediculously high value. So, yeah, small amounts make big differences at low ATA values but the difference gets tinier and tinier as you reach higher ones.


On 2007-09-10 12:39, Hrith wrote:

Oh, yeah, just to add to the GT accuracy comparison, level 87 GT 10 Caseal (509 ATA) with mechs and cards:

Machinegun (Beam Vulcanic): 495

Card (Mira-kikami): 556

which PAs?


All elemental bullet arts have the same accuracy mod for the weapon type. So this is the accuracy from everything outside of the ult PAs at level 30 (well, 20-30 for the cards).

87% for mechs and 70% for cards.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-10 13:05 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-10 12:58, Pillan wrote:
Simple back calculation. During my countless hours of bullet leveling, I found that the equation looks something like [hit rate] = ATA/(ATA + EVP/5) and I just did that backwards to figure out the accuracy values for a certain hit rate.

As you noticed, I said 250 ATA 62.5% hit rate, not 10%. I said 350-600 ATA translates to a 70-80% hit rate against normal EVP enemies, which means EVERYTHING will appear to hit between 2/3 and 4/5, regardless of class, race, etc., assuming your arts are all above 21 and excluding special cases like Mayalee Fury.Well that formula is totally erroneous, then.

600 - 350 = 250.

A difference of 250 ATA is not 10% hit rate.

The hit rate formula has to be exponential, anyway, it does not increase regularly. The difference between 400 and 500 ATA is more important than between 500 and 600, while it's +100 in both cases.

The difference in hit rate between some races or classes of the same class, PA and character level is sometimes 2/3 to 19/20 or more.
So assuming that the difference in hit rate ranges from 2/3 to 4/5 was a mistake.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-10 13:08, Hrith wrote:
Well that formula is totally erroneous, then.

600 - 350 = 250.

A difference of 250 ATA is not 10% hit rate.

The hit rate formula has to be exponential, anyway, it does not increase regularly. The difference between 400 and 500 ATA is more important than between 500 and 600, while it's +100 in both cases.

The difference in hit rate between some races or classes of the same class, PA and character level is sometimes 2/3 to 19/20 or more.
So assuming that the difference in hit rate ranges from 2/3 to 4/5 was a mistake.


I’ve never seen anyone get more than 4/5. I’ve seen bursts where things like rifles or bows will hit 19/20 but then are immediately followed by 4 or 5 zeros, but I’ve never seen the average get that high. Anyway, it’s a very tricky thing to calculate, so odds are I’m slightly off, but I know I’m not off by that much.

Count 100 attacks from your rifle or bow or card or dagger with buten with an ATA up arm unit and if you still get values that high, I’ll have to go back and rework the whole thing.

Also, logically, the hit rate couldn’t go from 2/3 to 19/20 if your statement about a 250 ATA gap not resulting in more than 10%, because none of the classes have more than a 250 gap with PA and weapon, but you’re claiming the gap is around 29%.

I think you missed my edit earlier:


On 2007-09-10 12:58, Pillan wrote:
EDIT:

I think I got what you were asking backwards. Adding 250 ATA from 350 gives you a 10% increase in hit rate, but adding 250 from 600 gives you a 5% increase and adding 250 from that gives you a 3% increase and so on and so on until you get to that rediculously high value. So, yeah, small amounts make big differences at low ATA values but the difference gets tinier and tinier as you reach higher ones.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-10 13:05 ]</font>


So, yes, like you said, the hit rate has to be in something similar to an exponential form, but it’s not exponential at all simply because we have a limiting hit rate value of 1. It’s something with far steeper slope than an exponential over the later values (hit rate > .5) and a softer one at the lower values plus a zero point which an exponential can’t provide. That’s why I assumed it was a simple ratio formula and got that.

Now, maybe the factor which EVP was divided by is off, but it would tighten the gap between low ATA and high ATA weapons if raised and no one would have the accuracy they appear to have now if lowered. Both of which don’t hold that valid with what I’ve seen.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-10 13:55 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

<_<

Hrith, you are quite wrong.

Assuming your accuracy charts are correct (which they are not), then I should be missing on level 100 enemies in the Train somewhere around what, 30% of the time? Maybe even 40%? With only 310 Acc. after modifiers.

In reality, my miss rate was closer to 15%. Hard to tell accurately, but I counted the number of 0's hit while using Killer Shot with a Saiyuhoh (easy to do), and it came out to 3 out of every 20 shots missed as a ratio.

Utilizing the crossbow, it's harder to tell whether or not 0's show up, but I can tell my Beast female has less trouble killing a mob of the beasts in there (an average of thirty seconds to a minute less per spawn while solo) than my newearl - despite the nearly TWO HUNDRED difference in Accuracy. Since my beast only deals about 40 damage more per bullet, the difference in Power isn't immense but definitely there. By your calculations, it should be about the same amount of time since my beast will do a heap more missin' - and yet... it's not!

How can I trust your 'calculations', when the empiritical evidence shows them to be seriously flawed?

Accuracy doesn't matter past a certain point, and that point is closer to 300 than to 500 no matter what you want to believe. I'm willing to bet that were I to get my beast female's PAs optimized for fortegunner (she's in that class right now mostly because I bought her Killer Shot as a mistake and robots are easy to gain levels on), I would be able to break any 'speed' record set by a cast fortegunner.

Damn, I wish that Elayne was still on. She was an awesome beast fortegunner.

[Shanata]

Cast Female fG 90/10 (675 ATA)
Cubo Mamba
Solid / Power S
Yak Yoga 60% ACC
450 ATA

SEED Awakened S2
lv110 Sendillan, 768 evp, 17% miss
lv110 Buffed Deljaban, 1996 evp, 44% miss (29% with zodial/zodeel applied)


Cast Female GT 90/10 (524 ATA)
Cubo Mamba
No-SPS
Yak Yoga 60% ACC
408 ATA

lv110 Sendillan, 768 evp, 19% miss
lv110 Buffed Deljaban, 1996 evp, 48% miss (32% after zodial/zodeel is applied)




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shanata on 2007-09-11 05:29 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-11 02:38, imfanboy wrote:
Assuming your accuracy charts are correct (which they are not), then I should be missing on level 100 enemies in the Train somewhere around what, 30% of the time? Maybe even 40%? With only 310 Acc. after modifiers.

In reality, my miss rate was closer to 15%. Hard to tell accurately, but I counted the number of 0's hit while using Killer Shot with a Saiyuhoh (easy to do), and it came out to 3 out of every 20 shots missed as a ratio.


It was my accuracy equation that was defining the charts before, so if there’s something wrong with it it’s my fault. Anyway, if your statement above is true, the real hit rate equation would be something [hit rate] = ATA/(ATA+EVP/12.3).


On 2007-09-11 05:26, Shanata wrote:
Cast Female fG 90/10 (675 ATA)
Cubo Mamba
Solid / Power S
Yak Yoga 60% ACC
450 ATA

SEED Awakened S2
lv110 Sendillan, 768 evp, 17% miss
lv110 Buffed Deljaban, 1996 evp, 44% miss (29% with zodial/zodeel applied)


Cast Female GT 90/10 (524 ATA)
Cubo Mamba
No-SPS
Yak Yoga 60% ACC
408 ATA

lv110 Sendillan, 768 evp, 19% miss
lv110 Buffed Deljaban, 1996 evp, 48% miss (32% after zodial/zodeel is applied)


Using my equation on the buffed Deljaban gives you a 49.5% miss rate as a GT and 47% as fG, which are very close, but it does seem to be off by large amounts on the Sendillan calculation (27% for GT and 25% for fG) and the buff application (37% for fG and 39% on GT).

That’s actually very interesting. Under the conditions near 50% it’s extremely accurate, but it gets further off near saturation. That makes Cast ATA more useful than was thought before. I’d have to think a lot to figure out something like that. Maybe like replacing ATA in the equation with ATA*e^[(5*ATA-EVP)/C], which would increase the effect of high accuracy at later values, with the C being whatever gives you 19% at 408 against 768 and 17% at 450 against 768.

That or the sigma function you see in the DFP/ATP and TP/MST equation is effecting the EVP/ATA relation as well. Which is a random buff by +/-5% hit rate just from firing.

Well, the only thing I can do is count machinegun shots and see what I’m getting. I'll get on it whenever I'm in the mood to actually play PSU.

EDIT:

New SUVs Friday... Guess I'll do it then.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-11 08:30 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-11 02:38, imfanboy wrote:
Hrith, you are quite wrong.IMPOSSABEL!!1


Assuming your accuracy charts are correctI posted charts? ;o


How can I trust your 'calculations', when the empiritical evidence shows them to be seriously flawed?How can I trust your 'calculations', when the empirical evidence shows them to be seriously flawed?

I have tested this game much more than you have, your empirical evidence is consequently worth less.
And I only used your logic ;o


Accuracy doesn't matter past a certain point, and that point is closer to 300 than to 500 no matter what you want to believe.I think you're just one of those beast (im)fanboys who cannot take the hard truth. Or you just cannot face being wrong; your work is greatly outdated.
lame puns ftl D:

The "point after which ATA barely matters" is much closer to 500 for Lv100+ monsters. There is a great difference in hit rates between my crossbow and my handgun, a great difference.


I'm willing to bet that were I to get my beast female's PAs optimized for fortegunner (she's in that class right now mostly because I bought her Killer Shot as a mistake and robots are easy to gain levels on), I would be able to break any 'speed' record set by a cast fortegunner.Your pen0r is so great, rape me more.

Beast FG deal about 5-10 more damage than cast FG, and misses a lot more with high DPS weapons.

How can you hope to be faster with 5-10 more damage per bullet but so many more "0"? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


Damn, I wish that Elayne was still on. She was an awesome beast fortegunner.That's not my point at all, beasts can be good Fortegunners. Starrz is awesome.


On 2007-09-11 08:02, Pillan wrote:
It was my accuracy equation that was defining the charts before, so if there’s something wrong with it it’s my fault. Anyway, if your statement above is true, the real hit rate equation would be something [hit rate] = ATA/(ATA+EVP/12.3).rofl http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
You'll kill me... laughing, that is.
That formula means a difference of 300 ATA is barely 8% hit rate.
Why not give all classes 99% hit rate and make ATA useless? ;o
ST is not that stupid.
OMG, what a laugh.
And this formula is not exponential, so it cannot be correct.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-11 09:31 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-11 09:30, Hrith wrote:

On 2007-09-11 08:02, Pillan wrote:
It was my accuracy equation that was defining the charts before, so if there’s something wrong with it it’s my fault. Anyway, if your statement above is true, the real hit rate equation would be something [hit rate] = ATA/(ATA+EVP/12.3).rofl http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
You'll kill me... laughing, that is.
That formula means a difference of 300 ATA is barely 8% hit rate.
Why not give all classes 99% hit rate and make ATA useless? ;o
ST is not that stupid.
OMG, what a laugh.
And this formula is not exponential, so it cannot be correct.


That one actually was a joke.

And try making hit rate your x variable and solving for ATA. It will give you ATA=[hit rate]*EVP/(A-A*[hit rate]) where A is the factor difference between ATA and EVP. For me, it’s obviously 5, and for imfanboy it would be like 12.3, but for you it’s non-existent given your conditions of f(600 ATA) – f(350 ATA) < .1 and f(600 ATA) – f(350 ATA) > .29. (Yeah, I’m never going to let you live that up…)

Plot it on a graph with the hit rate varying from 0 to 1 or just solve manually and you’ll see that that equation says you need infinite ATA to hit all the time plus higher values of ATA become less important as ATA increases, which are the 2 conditions you and everyone else in the world was expecting.

As I said earlier, it has to be something much steeper than an exponential simply because you have a limiting value. This is basic calculus. Exponential equations have no points of discontinuity while this equation must have a point of discontinuity at [hit rate] = 1 just because you can never hit an enemy more than 100% of the time.


EDIT:


On 2007-09-11 08:02, Pillan wrote:
Using my equation on the buffed Deljaban gives you a 49.5% miss rate as a GT and 47% as fG, which are very close, but it does seem to be off by large amounts on the Sendillan calculation (27% for GT and 25% for fG) and the buff application (37% for fG and 39% on GT).

That’s actually very interesting. Under the conditions near 50% it’s extremely accurate, but it gets further off near saturation. That makes Cast ATA more useful than was thought before. I’d have to think a lot to figure out something like that. Maybe like replacing ATA in the equation with ATA*e^[(5*ATA-EVP)/C], which would increase the effect of high accuracy at later values, with the C being whatever gives you 19% at 408 against 768 and 17% at 450 against 768.

That or the sigma function you see in the DFP/ATP and TP/MST equation is effecting the EVP/ATA relation as well. Which is a random buff by +/-5% hit rate just from firing.


Actually, there is a third possibility…

Because you were using a crossbow, odds are that you missed some zeros when your hit rate got closer to a limiting value. You know, if you were dealing 305 302 0, you wouldn’t see that zero at all unless it was on the first shot. That could give the count a deviation proportional to the expected miss rate squared, which actually throws it within a standard deviation of the rate.

I don’t mean to offend you at all by saying that Shanata, but even I have been guilty of not seeing that before, which is why I liked crossbows so much in December – August but don’t really care as much for them now. The missing rate lowers their real damage/time below that of machineguns in most cases, though still higher than twin handguns. The main reason I still use them is because they last longer and don’t glitch PP regen, like mechs, and I don’t want to delete all those level 30 bullets for cards, especially if I play fG half the time.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-11 10:55 ]</font>

[Garanz-Baranz]

<.<

Personally... going on the topic of Guntechers, instead of this ATA formula...

I use a Beast Guntecher, it's a preference.

As for the current leveled monsters she fights, her hit rate is about 80-95%, depending on your weapon and PA level.

o.o generally, your ATA is not a absolute concern if your PA's are strong. just use what is, in your preference, the best against a foe.

PSU is a preference game. if you want to fight with something, just use it.

As a beast GT, i use Alteric +9 and Ulteri +2, Maser Cannon[even though she is one ATA from the legendary Degahna Cannon x.x], Shigga Brada, a Crossbow/Dagger combo, a Mechgun/Saber combo, and a Wand/Card combo.

<.< i use what the heck I want to use at the moment sence with most guns i can kill without much effort.

The Card weapon slightly overpowers the Twin Handgun, thus why i don't use them.

Human GT's benefit from a stat boot if i recall,
Newman's can use their TP to more of an effect and their ATA is second best,
CAST get a higher ATP and ATA selection, but totally lack in TP.
Beast get king-pin ATP and HP, and their ATA is boosted by the class,

All it's based on is preference, but overall, Humans, Newmans, and CAST all are great GT picks. Beast are great too if you can learn to use a Nanoblast effectivly.

CAST's use of SUV's, and Beast use of Nanoblast kind of even out their weaknesses, namely TP.

again it's all preference, play how you want, it's your $10 a month. n.n

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-09-11 16:06, Garanz-Baranz wrote:
Human GT's benefit from a stat boot if i recall,
Newman's can use their TP to more of an effect and their ATA is second best,
CAST get a higher ATP and ATA selection, but totally lack in TP.
Beast get king-pin ATP and HP, and their ATA is boosted by the class,

All it's based on is preference, but overall, Humans, Newmans, and CAST all are great GT picks. Beast are great too if you can learn to use a Nanoblast effectivly.

CAST's use of SUV's, and Beast use of Nanoblast kind of even out their weaknesses, namely TP.

again it's all preference, play how you want, it's your $10 a month. n.n

By far the most well-said post in this thread. Good comparison of all the races, with their advantages.

[Hrith]

Beast ATA boosted by the class? I am not sure I understand, or was it a typo?

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-09-12 09:53, Hrith wrote:
Beast ATA boosted by the class? I am not sure I understand, or was it a typo?



The low ATA of a Beast is made better by the high ATA mod. Still the lowest, but it's brought up to a point where it really doesn't matter.

[Hrith]

Oh, another person who fails to understand how ATA works, then.

[amtalx]

You forgot to add "and their ATA is boosted by the class," after ever race, so Beast is still last....alwyas. Go to S2 Fakis and see how may goose eggs you get. If it's someone elses character, you'll be laughing your ass off. If its yours, you'll be crying.

[Garanz-Baranz]

My Beast Guntecher is only Lv48, so no S2 Fakis o.o

<.< And why the comment on ATA?

If I can't hit a target, i shoot again, if that gun fails, I'll use another.

It's logic. and Preference.

[amtalx]

Admittedly, the ATA difference isn't that much of an issue until you get to S2 Dulk Fakis. The enemies with the EVP buff really put your ATA to the test (even for Cast fGs). I've seen Beast GTs throw out seemingly unending strings of 0s with Twin Handguns, and Machineguns are damn near useless. That being said, it wasn't like I didn't have any 0s, but the ATA disparity is actually enough to significantly affect DPS.

[CelestialBlade]

Nobody has an easy time hitting S2 Deljabans, even Cast fGs. GTs will have an easier time in AoI, when we'll have level 21 Zodial and Zodeel. So Beast or Cast, don't expect to go into HIVE S2 and not see any zeroes.

[Rett]

I guess this discussion has turned into what class or race sees more zeros now

[danny_o]

I like it as Newman, and 6 of my Card bullets are 21+ and 4 of my Bow bullets are 21+. Just changed to GT from FT, which I have been since April or March.

My damage as FT with lvl 29 Light Card bullet was 200~ on a Kikami (7*) w/lvl21+buffs(170~ w/no buffs), now with GT I hit for 225~ on a Kikami w/no buffs and 250~ w/lvl1+buffs. I wanna get an X-Bow, but I will need to shave off some of my crappy/uninvested TECHNICs, like Zonde or Barta, and Rising Strike from my Wartekka days.

The TP boost along with Support/Offense Lvl raise in AoI will close the gap between CAST and Newman YET it will maintain (maybe even solidify) each race/type's uniqueness.

If you wanna be more Gun with a dabbling of Techer, CAST is where it's gonna be, but if you wanna be just about equal parts Gun and Techer, Newman is where it's gonna be.

The class can use every ranged weapon, 'cept for 'nade launcher, so your versatility is you main thang! Don't be pigeon holed!

[guise709]

i like my human GT he is the perfect balance between atp and tp and very good for support and inflicting SE's. Thats pretty much their job to inflict SE's and cast support spells and minor healing spells since they can get closer into the action unlike a Techer.

[Garanz-Baranz]

On 2007-09-13 13:07, guise709 wrote:
i like my human GT he is the perfect balance between atp and tp and very good for support and inflicting SE's. Thats pretty much their job to inflict SE's and cast support spells and minor healing spells since they can get closer into the action unlike a Techer.



You clearly haven't used a Beast GT...
They're bent on best Damage with bows and cards, and using their techs VERY scarcly because of such limited TP, GT's are NOT Support lackies T.T and why the crap is it every fG's and GT's so called "Duty" to inflict SE's left and right?????

[Niloklives]

cause they have lower ATP...they have to make up for it somewhere. in any case as a human female GT I don't have much trouble hitting buffed deljabans on fakis S2 even without debuffs, so I don't know where that statement stems from.

[Garanz-Baranz]

<.< I think I lost track of the topic on that post... Who has lower ATP?

[Niloklives]

it was asked why GTs were seen as an SE oriented class. Their lower ATP while being gun specialists means they have to make up for raw DPS with DoTs.

I then said that people seem to think ATA somewhat desaturates vwhen fighting in the hive and fakis missions on S2. I was saying that at 466 base ata, I don't miss often as a GT even in those missions.

[Rett]

WHAT ? inflicting SEs is a beautiful thing, I love seeing a jarva poisoned, on an S it was doing a 1k damage to him. Also while a beast GT deals out the damage, and cast may have the damage and the accuracy ( I still say the low mst makes cast just an unattractive race) but the newman has the accuracy and the ability to actually resta for decent amount. And really thats my favorite part of being a Guntecher. I get guns and I get a wand to heal. Also come expansion with the double TP and higher lvl spells, things will be great. So you beast and casts can have your doing more damage, I can heal without it taking 3-5 casts.

[Niloklives]

poisin is the worst DoT in the game. if you have any pride as a GT only inflict burn and virus/ poison prevents better SEs from being inflcited as well so it actually ends up slowing down the team.

Avoid using poison at all costs



also even a cast GT can heal anyone to full in 2 waves of a resta wand come AoI. its not a big enough difference to make anyone sweat over it.

Mst at lower levels is completely worthless. the difference between 100 mst and 300 mst is only 40-40 damage which is more than made up for by the higher HP, it only becomes an issue when looking at FT which has huge MST mods. in a situation like that a newman has a clear advantage over most everyone else, but as a GT, MST may as well be 0...it's pretty much useless

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-09-13 16:50 ]</font>

[Garanz-Baranz]

On 2007-09-13 16:40, NIloklives wrote:
it was asked why GTs were seen as an SE oriented class. Their lower ATP while being gun specialists means they have to make up for raw DPS with DoTs.

I then said that people seem to think ATA somewhat desaturates vwhen fighting in the hive and fakis missions on S2. I was saying that at 466 base ata, I don't miss often as a GT even in those missions.


Ah ok. well, I use the Beast's ATP as a support for her Bow, and Cards, which do... well, and ARSE LOAD of damage, like 350 per hit on the bow, and 450 on the card if both are past Lv10. I'll use what does the best damage, I don't concern myself with SE's.

Ah well, we have different play styles. I guess I'll play my way, and you'll play yours. =P

[Niloklives]

I do 650 to 700 damage with a bow. but 2k damage every 2 seconds beats out anything either of us can do. SEs are extremely useful, they save you time, PP and just make things easier on thr group. watching a lvl 100 goldova lose 25% of its health in 10 seconds in addition to whatever damage is being tacked on only makes things better. if you're just going for raw damage, you're holding your team back.

[Garanz-Baranz]

On 2007-09-13 17:11, NIloklives wrote:
I do 650 to 700 damage with a bow. but 2k damage every 2 seconds beats out anything either of us can do. SEs are extremely useful, they save you time, PP and just make things easier on thr group. watching a lvl 100 goldova lose 25% of its health in 10 seconds in addition to whatever damage is being tacked on only makes things better. if you're just going for raw damage, you're holding your team back.


<.< just because I'm more focused on damage doesn't mean I won't inflict SE's.

And why not have more combat fun?

[Niloklives]

I focus on total damage. and I'm more "in your face" than most GTs. personally I have a blast playing it that way and I don't have the same kind of trouble soloing that others do. In any case, infict your DoTs then switch to your higher DPS weapon. on higher difficulties, you'll see just how effective that method is.

[Rett]

On 2007-09-13 16:46, NIloklives wrote:
poisin is the worst DoT in the game. if you have any pride as a GT only inflict burn and virus/ poison prevents better SEs from being inflcited as well so it actually ends up slowing down the team.

Avoid using poison at all costs



also even a cast GT can heal anyone to full in 2 waves of a resta wand come AoI. its not a big enough difference to make anyone sweat over it.

Mst at lower levels is completely worthless. the difference between 100 mst and 300 mst is only 40-40 damage which is more than made up for by the higher HP, it only becomes an issue when looking at FT which has huge MST mods. in a situation like that a newman has a clear advantage over most everyone else, but as a GT, MST may as well be 0...it's pretty much useless

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-09-13 16:50 ]</font>


Don't talk to me about the pride of a Guntecher. Your character is not even a guntecher most of the time. Also lets look at my statement. It was a Jarva and inlou of I don't have my earth bullets to 21 yet Dark bullets would be best to use on a Jarva if you wanted to inflict a SE that did Damage over time. If you sit there and use fire on a fire enemy especially an S rank Jarva then wow you need a lesson in elements 101.
The Great think about being a gunner is that you can switch bullet elements on the fly. So you want to SE something then leave it to die then infect it and move on. Although Fire does do more damage it only stays for a short time and fire bullets do not work well on fire enemies.

[Rett]

umm I do use that method oh high difficulties and actually its very effective. applies SEs is why most ppl like me in parties. Everyone likes Seed-Popsicles.

[biggabertha]

Surely shooting Burning Shot 30 from a 9* rifle continuously at a Jarba will kill it much faster than using Dark Shot 30? Even if the Jarba's Lv. 110, I'm sure Burning Shot 30 would make it bit the dust faster than Dark Shot 30 could.

[CelestialBlade]

As long as you're landing the SE, Burn is going to work faster, which is why I normally prefer it. But at the same time you do more per shot with the Dark Shot, so in the end it really doesn't matter.

Ice Cards/Crossbow works pretty fucking well on them too, from a pure-damage standpoint. Now that I've got a Solid / Power S I can do around 400 per Crossbow bullet or Card shot (neither of them are above +4), so my non-SE DPS is becoming pretty good. At lower levels with non-rare equipment, though, it's probably better to be more reliant on SEs. But never rule them out.

Most importantly, though, play in whatever way is most fun for you :D

[amtalx]

On 2007-09-13 13:49, Garanz-Baranz wrote:

...why the crap is it every fG's and GT's so called "Duty" to inflict SE's left and right?????



It's not our "Duty" but we can do SE better than any class in the game. I think its fair to expect people to play to their classes strengths. Anyone else get frustrated when forces refuse to heal/buff and fighters bust out a pistol?

[DATruthNaoe]

anyone know how much ATP Female newmans get at GunTecher 10 and around level 80??

[R2R_Crysaki]

I say CASTs are the better coice for GT, especially female if you want to use spells. I just think the TP is useless and GT is ment for the range, but if you want to use some tech, be a female. Newmans would also be my second choice.

[Kion]

On 2007-09-13 16:46, NIloklives wrote:
poisin is the worst DoT in the game. if you have any pride as a GT only inflict burn and virus/ poison prevents better SEs from being inflcited as well so it actually ends up slowing down the team.

Avoid using poison at all costs

QFT. Poison is the worse DoT to use on large monsters for the reasons listed above. The only time poison traps should ever be used is on medium sized mobs that are giving you crap. The the knock down in that senario helps to gain a short advantage and the lower DoT doesn't make much of a difference because of the low heath. So please avoid being like those lowly fighgunners and inflict burn, please.



also even a cast GT can heal anyone to full in 2 waves of a resta wand come AoI. its not a big enough difference to make anyone sweat over it.

Mst at lower levels is completely worthless. the difference between 100 mst and 300 mst is only 40-40 damage which is more than made up for by the higher HP, it only becomes an issue when looking at FT which has huge MST mods. in a situation like that a newman has a clear advantage over most everyone else, but as a GT, MST may as well be 0...it's pretty much useless


this is very true too! as a GT, attack techs are absolutely worthless. Level 10 techs and only level 20 in AoI, pus low TP for the class; there's really nothing to be gained from attack techs. Damage SE are going to be much better on guns. And AOE doesn't even play a factor, as at level 10, it's tiny. So the onyl techs GT realy uses are support techniques which don't depend on TP. Maybe resta, but an extra cast or two doesn't make a difference. And items like Sori / Tech Chrage, or Sori / Force, it's not hard to cover the race difference.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-10-10 22:45, Kion wrote:

On 2007-09-13 16:46, NIloklives wrote:
also even a cast GT can heal anyone to full in 2 waves of a resta wand come AoI. its not a big enough difference to make anyone sweat over it.

Mst at lower levels is completely worthless. the difference between 100 mst and 300 mst is only 40-40 damage which is more than made up for by the higher HP, it only becomes an issue when looking at FT which has huge MST mods. in a situation like that a newman has a clear advantage over most everyone else, but as a GT, MST may as well be 0...it's pretty much useless


this is very true too! as a GT, attack techs are absolutely worthless. Level 10 techs and only level 20 in AoI, pus low TP for the class; there's really nothing to be gained from attack techs. Damage SE are going to be much better on guns. And AOE doesn't even play a factor, as at level 10, it's tiny. So the onyl techs GT realy uses are support techniques which don't depend on TP. Maybe resta, but an extra cast or two doesn't make a difference. And items like Sori / Tech Chrage, or Sori / Force, it's not hard to cover the race difference.



I'd suspect that lvl 20 damage techs are there to give us another option vs. buffed mobs who are immune to SE and/or bullet resistant. Since GT's are clearly NOT gonna rely on melee damage, ST's gonna help out GT by not totally gimping us out on damage techs, no? At least that way of thinking makes sense to me.
And I can only assume that I'd need to learn at least ONE damage tech to fall back on when my bullets and SE can't work in a situation.

[panzer_unit]

low-level Basic and Nos- techs aren't hamstrung by the ridiculous AOE limitations that even lv20 techs face.

[Kion]

guess so. i can't get the bad experience of when i tried ra- techinques on aiya out of my head. The ultimate dagger PA works wonders on bullet resistant mobs, and DoT suppliments it nicely. i can't see racking up DPS wih attack techs on cast, so i'll leave them for newman GT's.

[SolomonGrundy]

@ Hrith and Pillan: One metric that some other game engines use is a modifier based on your level vs the enemies level.

That is to say, given an equal amount of ATA, the higher level character will be more likely to hit the same enemy. I'm not completely sure how to test this.
One thought is to take an enemy with high evp as a result of level, and a low level enemy with high evp as a result of being a buffed-type. Record 200 shots for each.

[Bitey]

Just adding some perspective here for the Beast GT. My Male beast GT lvl 73/10 regularly runs Plains Overlord S2.

Unbuffed, with my Crossbow (2 Cubo Dunga+5) I generally miss half of the time and I hit about 80% of the time with my Cards (2 Mira-Kikami+4). (All of my Crossbow Bullets are 21+ and my Card bullets are 11+) Buffed with my own lvl 4 Zodial, I see zeroes from time to time on both weapons, but nothing I really cry about. Buffed with my friend's lvl 21+ Zodial I rarely see zeroes on either weapon. I will maybe count 15 through the entire mission...

And for the record, my only other ATA boost is from my Midiline.

There is nothing wrong with a Beast GT, especially after AoI. I actually would prefer Beast GT over CAST, Beasts have higher HP, EVA, MST, ATP, and TP...

Besides, any ranger Beast has to be a Guntecher if they do not want to not be outclassed in one of the ranger jobs. With character levels rising it will not be too soon when CASTs beat Beast in every stat that matters for Fortegunner because of racial bonuses so Guntecher is the only ranger class where Beasts still get to keep their superior HP and ATP above all other races (the two stats you choose a beast for); Newmans and Humans will not surpass Beast ATP and HP with racial bonuses. (I am not counting Fighgunner as a ranger class, by the way)

EDIT FOR THE TP DEBATE: I cannot argue technique damage because I do not remember the TP modifier for Guntecher, but I am pretty sure that lvl 20 attack techs are nothing to write home about anyway compared to all of the other Techer classes.

That leaves Resta and Giresta as the only techniques affected by TP that a Guntecher should care about, but Resta and Giresta are so strong at lvl 21+ that even with the most minimal TP stat casting either technique will recover more than a Dimate would (think Tonnio and his level 11+ Resta, it heals for 400 something depending on his level). I am almost positive that a max level Guntecher, no matter what race, equipped with a strong Wand will heal in the thousands with Resta/Giresta.

Anyway, Newman and Beast are the best races for GT in my opinion. Go Newman if you wish to be a support GT because of the higher TP for Resta/Giresta and higher ATA to apply SEs more dependably (although really that much more dependable than Beast). Go Beast for a sturdy GT that deal better damage, higher ATP for damage and higher HP for better survivability. (You can apply the Nanoblast to more damage or survivability. I personally chose the Invincible Beast to pop it in bad situations so that I can escape.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bitey on 2007-10-11 11:03 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-11 10:29, SolomonGrundy wrote:
@ Hrith and Pillan: One metric that some other game engines use is a modifier based on your level vs the enemies level.

That is to say, given an equal amount of ATA, the higher level character will be more likely to hit the same enemy. I'm not completely sure how to test this.
One thought is to take an enemy with high evp as a result of level, and a low level enemy with high evp as a result of being a buffed-type. Record 200 shots for each.


I am far too lazy to bother checking that. Personally, I doubt it just because we have an ATA stat that grows with level. And, if it does have an effect, it’s definitely not noticeable enough to give you a 100% hit rate on level 1 mobs with a level 90 character.


On 2007-10-11 10:35, Bitey wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a Beast GT, especially after AoI. I actually would prefer Beast GT over CAST, Beasts have higher HP, EVA, MST, ATP, and TP...

Besides, any ranger Beast has to be a Guntecher if they do not want to not be outclassed in one of the ranger jobs. With character levels rising it will not be too soon when CASTs beat Beast in every stat that matters for Fortegunner because of racial bonuses so Guntecher is the only ranger class where Beasts still get to keep their superior HP and ATP above all other races; Newmans and Humans will not surpass Beast ATP and HP with racial bonuses. (I am not counting Fighgunner as a ranger class, by the way)


You know Beasts have superior HP and ATP on every class, right? And, in the case of partial classes, it’s hard to argue the human and Newman bonuses do anything more than balance the fact that Casts and Beasts dominate in any weapon type that uses ATP. The only case where stats swap between the races is Beast and human DFP as the Acro- classes. (Male of one race beating female of another or vice versa doesn’t count as a stat swap in my book.)

Looks like twin handguns are getting a ridiculous ATA mod at 40, so those definitely scream Beast.


I’ll go ahead and call it now that GT will do more damage with its 10 skills than its 20 techs between the higher base ATP, higher skill mods, and Just Attack. Don’t forget level 10 Spinning Strike has the same mod as level 25 Diga and attacks twice as fast.

[SolomonGrundy]

The only case where stats swap between the races is Beast and human DFP as the Acro- classes. (Male of one race beating female of another or vice versa doesn’t count as a stat swap in my book.)

Pre AoI, Beast and Cast GTs struggled mightily to use A rank wands. In fact, at level 80 CASTs and male Beast still cannot use them.



I’ll go ahead and call it now that GT will do more damage with its 10 skills than its 20 techs between the higher base ATP, higher skill mods, and Just Attack. Don’t forget level 10 Spinning Strike has the same mod as level 25 Diga and attacks twice as fast.

I think GTs will be revealed as having a serious weakness: bosses

While fG, and melee types will be unleashing grenades and multi-hit skill PAs, GTs don't have great multi-hit weapon for high DFP targets like bosses, and debuffs won't help.

[Bitey]

You know Beasts have superior HP and ATP on every class, right?

Right now, yes, but as they heighten and heighten the max level cap, racial bonuses will kick in strong. As it stands now, CAST Fortegunners only trail Beast Fortegunner by like 80 ATP. With every extra level they add to the cap, that number gets smaller and smaller until one day CAST Fortegunner will beat Beast. My point was that Guntecher is the only Ranger class where Beast will always beat CAST in ATP and HP since neither race gets a racial bonus and the the two races that do get a racial bonus cannot catch up because they are too low in that area.

[Pillan]

I don’t believe racial bonuses work that way. I suppose we’ll find out in a year or 2 though.

[Niloklives]

racial bonuses will never allow someone in 3rd place for multiple stats to become 1st you need to rethink that.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-11 19:20, NIloklives wrote:
racial bonuses will never allow someone in 3rd place for multiple stats to become 1st you need to rethink that.



within the same job, right?

[Kion]

GT is a class that can work for any race/gender combination. Each race just has it's different advantages.

Human and Newman get the stat bonuses and good all around with the high eva and tp while beasts and casts have high atp, def not to mention thta blasts and SUV's come in very handy. I wouldn't say htere's a best race for GT, but different play styles based on the class picked.

[panzer_unit]

WRONG KION WRONG WRONG WRONG KION WRONG

THERE MUST BE A SUPERIOR RACE CLASS COMBINATION... OR ELSE... OR ELSE WHAT ARE ALL THE ELITISTS GOING TO STARE DOWN THEIR NOSES AT?!?! Some kind of existential abyss, that's what. A starless black void where the justification for their being was just a moment ago. You'll cause 3/4 of the posters here to suicide & THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO DIE. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL CREATION* NEVER MENTION SUCH A BLASPHEMOUS IDEA AGAIN.
Based on me being a huge expert on everything plus my 5 seconds playing one to rank 2, and the one player I know it's pretty obvious that Caseal GT's are best.

*shittiest ultimate limit break ever

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-12 14:14 ]</font>

[Bitey]

I don’t believe racial bonuses work that way. I suppose we’ll find out in a year or 2 though.

Racial bonuses add a small percent to stat modifiers for classes. For example, a Newman Wartecher gets an extra 3% in the ATP modifier for Wartecher than Beast does. As the base stats for a race go up (which happenes when they level), so does the extra stats gained from the racial bonus.

For example, let us say a race has a base ATP of 100 and they change to a class that has an ATP modifier of 100% and a racial bonus of 3%; this will give them 103 ATP after the class change. They gained 3 extra ATP from the racial bonus. Now up the base stats, say the race has a base of 200 ATP now (they gained a few levels). Switching to a class with a 100% ATP and a racial bonus of 3% will now give them 206 ATP. They gained an extra 3 ATP from the racial bonus than before.

The eventual level cap is supposed to be 200. If a CAST Fortegunner is only trailing Beast by 80 some ATP now, then couldn't we expect a CAST to pass Beast in ATP 90 levels later because of the racial bonus? Unless they changed how that is calculated in AoI anyway... >.>

[Pillan]

What I meant was that base stats grow at different rates among the character races. Though, at this time, it is true that HP and ATP are the only stats that clearly have a different growth rate with each race, I seriously doubt the deviations won’t increase so that Beast Fortegunners no longer have more ATP than Casts, Newman Guntechers have more ATA than Casts, etc.

For example, if Beast ATP is always 5% higher than Cast and Casts get a 3% bonus, then Beasts will always have at least 2% more ATP.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-13 15:13 ]</font>