Hunter/Fortefighter Tips and Pointers Request

[afish8doom]

I bought PSU the day it came out, but never gave it a chance, and stuck to PSO. The other day though I started playing and its alot of fun, but i feel so disgustingly nooby amongst every other player.

I just wanted some help in making my character so i could start the game out right and not get to far ahead to find out... my character is a piece of garbage. I would like to make a Hunter/Fortefighter, I like the close range, and if anyone could help me out by posting some pointers and tips it would be much appreciated. Thanks.


Skuda Edit: Title Edited for clarity.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skuda on 2007-09-09 23:34 ]</font>

[Hrith]

I'll focus on the Fortefighter aspect.

Firstly, it's better to be a beast or cast, humans ans newmans make poor Fortefighters (FF).

The Photon Arts (PAs) you should get as a Fortefighter are:
-Dus Daggas
-Tornado Break
-Anga Dugrega
-Shousen Totsuzan-ga
-Bogga Zubba

For a start.

Much later in the game, you could add
-Bogga Robado
-Rensan Senshou-ga

If you plan to use your A grade weapons at all (single sabers, twin sabers, single daggers, twin daggers), those are good PAs to learn:
-Moubu Seiren-zan
-Rising Crush
-Assault Crush (learn later)
-Gravity Strike
-Buten Shuren-zan

Do not learn too many PAs at the same time, it will bore you to level them up all.


As a Fortefighter, it is obvious that your Partner Machine (PM) should be 100 Strike; feed it melee weapons and restorative items, making sure it never gains a full gauge of Technic.


Fortefighter is an expensive class, because you need good % on weapons and shields alike, and this can be annoying to get.

For now, you should be able to find decent C/B grade equipment in player shops (use the database here to know what you're looking for), but later it will probably pay off more to make your own weapons.

[Darkly]

One thing i'd like to add is that once you become fortefighter, you will probably want to go out and buy axes, but after using them quite a lot, only anga durega is a useful Pa, because it knocks enemies around and controls them whilst doing big damage. many people get anga redda, which is powerful but slow, and only causes knockback on the last hit, this means you're going to get your combo stopped, alot.

In reality dus daggas, the spear pa does has a much better damage output, i would also like to note the first single claw pa, its like a drill move and is very powerful.

Finally get tornado break for your long sword, the spinning move, its a very defensive move, you get a lot of movement when you swing, it has a large attack radius also, i rarely get stopped pulling off this move, compared to the spear spinning move, dus robado.

[panzer_unit]

When you're equipping yourself, check to see if there are elemental weapons and/or armor you can use for sale in the shops. This can save you a good bit of time and money on synthesis.

[SiGeL]

Everyone above added some good points, I'll just elaborate.

If you just want the straight up best PAs, nothing is touching Renkai Buyou-zan (twin daggers) and Dus Daggas/Robado (spear), and Buten Shuren-zan; they're just too good.

-Renkai's first two combos on a mob is fast, huge numbers on high % twin daggers, and draws the monsters to you, which I think is one of fF's main jobs. It's only drawback is covered by getting Dus Robado too.

-Daggas is a retardedly strong PA, and one of the fastest too. First combo hits 2 targets 2 times, second hits 2 targets 3 times, third hits 3 targets 3 times. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how bad a fF with a high % spear can destroy a monster with multiple targets.

-Dus Robado is like Renkai in that it's an AoE PA, meaning you'd want to use it on a group of monsters around you. While Renkai is still best at this in my opinion, monsters can easily hit you out of it if you don't have high % armor. Robado doesn't have this drawback, which is why I suggest it for some of the stronger monsters like Vahras.

Don't get me wrong here, I have almost all the other PAs, and they're a lot of fun to use, but these are the straight up best ones.

Most important for Fortefighters is, in my opinion, armor. fF is there to get right in the middle of groups to keep the heat on themselves and off of the rest of the party. While at 2k+ HP you've got a lot to spare for taking hits, your Fortetecher buddies and the like aren't so fortunate. Keeping monsters occupied and grouped by you leaves them free to nuke their hearts out or anything. Fortefighter is a party oriented class, and its real power only shows when you have others to cover its weaknesses.

-Tying in with the above, get in the habit of switching your armors based on the element of the mob. Make sure the armor's slots match up so you don't lose any of your slot units.

What I'm describing is something that can only be done to full effect with high percent armors. Without them, you're just getting yourself bullied too much to do an effective job of this. I'll tell you now that this isn't gonna be anywhere close to cheap, but is one of the best investments you can make. Like Hrith said, melee classes are not cheap at all; you'll be spending/trading a whole lot to get that high % gear, but once you have it, fF is hands down one of the strongest classes in the game.

/wall of text http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Ask if you need any more insight.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SiGeL on 2007-09-10 08:50 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-10 08:47, SiGeL wrote:
-Renkai's first two combos on a mob is fast, huge numbers on high % twin daggers, and draws the monsters to you, which I think is one of fF's main jobs. It's only drawback is covered by getting Dus Robado too.Renkai is weaker than the other two twin dagger PAs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Renkai Buyou-zan is better than Moubu Seiren-zan in like 1% of the situations, amazing.

Renkai Buyou-zan will also be interrupted all the time unless you're using it on monsters which pose no threat to begin with = useless PA.

Twin daggers should not be a Fortefighter's main weapon, anyway.


-Dus Robado is like Renkai in that it's an AoE PA, meaning you'd want to use it on a group of monsters around you. While Renkai is still best at this in my opinion, monsters can easily hit you out of it if you don't have high % armor. Robado doesn't have this drawback, which is why I suggest it for some of the stronger monsters like Vahras.How is Dus Robado even remotely good compared to Tornado Break?
Dus Robado is very slow and bound to get canceled very fast, so it will not work versus Go Vahras.

Tornado Break has better DPS for less PP and stuns monsters, and has better range, too.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-10 13:01 ]</font>

[MrNomad]

-Dus Robado is like Renkai in that it's an AoE PA, meaning you'd want to use it on a group of monsters around you. While Renkai is still best at this in my opinion, monsters can easily hit you out of it if you don't have high % armor. Robado doesn't have this drawback, which is why I suggest it for some of the stronger monsters like Vahras.How is Dus Robado even remotely good compared to Tornado Break?
Dus Robado is very slow and bound to get canceled very fast, so it will not work versus Go Vahras.

Tornado Break has better DPS for less PP and stuns monsters, and has better range, too.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-10 13:01 ]</font>
[/quote]Are you kidding? I use Dus Robado all the time on Go Vahras and it stuns and does tons of damage to them. And your solution is Tornado Break? Lol you've got them mixed up, its Tornado Break thats horrible against Go Varhas.

[Zorafim]

Here are some PAs I can comment on. Unless I say it's not great, it is really good to have it.

Anga Dugrega (Axe cheap PA) for throwing enemies around. It's a pain to level, but it can be a priceless skill to have.

Anga Redda's damage is good, but Daggas is better for it. Only get it if you want a normal damage PA for axe.

Dus Daggas / Dus Robado. Daggas is great for pure damage, and is rather self reliant. It's my favorite move for simple damage, and it can control enemies quite well as well. You shouldn't go without it.
As for Robado, it's my favorite AoE move to use. Its damage output is higher than Tornado Break, and each hit stuns. In other words, it stun locks enemies in place, deals damage to them, and throws them away. You can get in the middle of a bunch of enemies and just spam this if you're good at keeping yourself healed.
(Note: Sword has very similar PAs. The difference is that Spinning Break's damage is lower than Daggas while providing a large amounts of stuns. And Tornado Break's damage output is lower than Robado's, while being quicker to the knockback. They're more defensive, in other words. If you like swords more than spears, you can substitute it in, but your damage output will suffer a bit.)

The more expensive twin claw PA is pretty good. First part does quick damage, while the second part disrupts enemies. The last his isn't great, but useful if you want a three target knockback.
The first twin claw PA isn't worth using, since Robado can do its role better. I've never found a use for Bukuu. The PA fragment twin claw PA is good for damage, but it isn't as useful as the storebought one.

The first claw PA is great for both damage and throwaroundability, but its PP management is terrible. Use it against high threat enemies.
If you feel the first claw PA's PP consumption is too high, you can get the PA fragment PA to compinsate. Its PA usage is much better, but its damage is much lower.

Bogga Zubba is nice to have, but don't bother leveling it unless you want to. It's great for a knockup, but that's all it's good for.
Bogga Robado is great for damage, and useful for stuns and throwarounds after the first part, but its PP management is also low. Overall a good PA, consider using it.
Bogga Danga is okay, but not needed. Its stuns are great, but its damage isn't all there. The last hit is also hard to preform, though its damage is rather astounding. It's good for getting in the middle of a crowd and getting out alive, but it's not needed.

I also like the second twin dagger PA, since it's very heavy with stuns. If the enemy can be stunned, you shouldn't be hit while using it. Really great for generic situations. As for the first one, Renkai, I don't like how it doesn't stun and how easy it is to get disrupted. Since you have Daggas and Robado anyway, I suggest against it.

The first dagger PA is good for general use, I used it as a "final weapon" when all my other weapons ran out of PP. Damage is good, PP use is good, stuns are good, even its maneuverability is good. All round a good PA.

(note: I don't have much experience with weapons other than axe, spear, sword, twin claw, single claw, and fists. Though I stand by the dagger PAs I mentioned, I don't know much about the others)


As for your role, get in close to opposing enemies and be a target. From there, choose a PA for the situation (you'll have to adapt to the situation as it comes). You'll want to keep the enemies in check while the other jobs do their thing. Because of this, more stuns are better, and throwarounds can be priceless in a given situation.
Again, adjust your elements based on the situation. You won't have to worry about this for a while, but keep it in mind. Once you get the money, get some elemental 9*s (or what have you) so you can stay alive and up your damage. Once you start using elemental armor for damage reduction, use Mega / Rainbow. It's much better than any defense you can get, assuming elemental advantage.

For earlier levels, get the weapon your money can afford and get enough PAs to have it adjust to your situation. I suggest simply using a weapon you think looks cool. If you want to maximize your performance, spear and sword are rather solid for this, since all you'll want to worry about in low levels is AoE attacks and DoT attacks. Always keep a handgun on you, since there are certain situations where you just need it. Once you get your signature PAs up to a good level, start leveling others. Try to get them all to 21 so you can use them all. This is only a suggestion, though, you can do without this. But it does make you very well versed.

I have an overview of all the fF weapon PAs, let me get that out...

Ah, here it is. http://pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=148168&forum=22

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-09-10 15:10 ]</font>

[TheBlackDeath]

Well alot has been said already but I still want to give my opinion.

Starting with renkai as almost everyone else has, this is a garbage PA. Don't consider getting it for even one second. Moubu Seiren-zan and Hishou Jinren-zan are leaps and bounds ahead of it. Moubu is probably better than Hishou in terms of general situations but the Ult PA still has it's uses. Moubu is great if you want to chew off a part of a group and then go in with something heavier or if you want to just mow them down. It's good for bosses too but only if you can hit two targets at once, not to say that you shouldn't but if the range isn't enough to hit more than one target you should probably use something else if there's even another one close enough. For twin daggers this is definitely my most used PA, because not only does it have low pp cost it has so many hits per combo that it takes a very long time to run down a pair of daggers.

For axes I would definitely recommend Anga Dugrega as a good PA but it is unbelievably hard to level. Once you get it to 11 IMO it's actually better than Redda. I might suggest that you get Redda as a starter PA for two reasons; first, Redda is a good PA if you don't have Dugrega leveled up at all, second, it took me longer to level Dugrega to 11 with 4 axes and nonstop use, than it took to level Bukuu Rensen-ga to 11 with a single pair of twin claws and only occasional use.

I have both Dus Daggas and Dus Robado but I won't bother explaining why a PA that you can use to drill into your opponent and then bitch-slap the hell out of them is good. While Tornado Break is a good and often better PA than Robado I still use it quite a bit. I suppose I should mention now that some of these PAs that I talk about that have better alternatives are something that should be worked on later rather than sooner but that doesn't mean they should be ignored.

Moving on to swords, I've already described Tornado Break as usually being a better substitute for Dus Robado so nothing else really needs to be said about that. Spinning Break on the other hand I have never used since I got it to 21. It does good damage it's just nowhere near as useful as it's counterpart, Dus Daggas. I don't really know why I spent the time on getting it to 21 since the only thing I've ever used on a sword lately is the other PA. You should plan ahead and this PA is so awesome even though it hasn't been released yet but if you like using swords definitely get Gravity Break as soon as it is released. At level 1 it has a 342% ATP modifier http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif.

Twin and single claws are not in my expertise because I haven't gotten around to experimenting with them so I would just go with zorafim's advice. I will plan on getting the other purchasable twin claw PA and the ult one just because it looks cool. I'll probably keep the single one even though it drains out your pp pretty quickly and I'll add the ultimate for that one as well also because it looks cool.

Fists are probably my third favorite type of weapon so the ones I have don't see much action but they are quite useful. Once again Bogga Danga might be one you want to start out with and then when you can, get Robado since it's the one you need PA frags for, but I haven't really started working on it because I got Robado by the time I got any knuckles whatsoever. I'll agree with Zorafim and say that Zubba isn't exactly necessary but it is pretty much the best thing for tearing straight through a group of small enemies. The 2nd and 3rd combos in Robado can do the same thing but it's tougher to get knocked out of Zubba. Also while plowing through a group of enemies it does great damage too along with leaving the group behind you on the floor.

Oops almost forgot about twin sabers. I only have Rising and Assault Crush so I can't really say anything about Splendor. Assault Crush is another one of those that's great at 21 but the cheaper one is better to have until then. It doesn't really take all that long to get Assault Crush to 21 though and I've pretty much dropped the first one since I got it there. Rising Crush is a good juggler but it's a bit harder to level. Whereas with the more expensive PA all you need is as many C rank twin sabers as you can get, which isn't hard if you run HSM alot, and you can get a PA with some great single target damage on the first two combos and then a Bogga Zubba sort of 3rd combo that starts up and hits, faster.

On single daggers the only PA you should ever really get is Buten Shuren-zan. Shunbu Shuren-zan is even worse garbage than Renkai and should also never be considered.

Finally on single sabers both Rising Strike and Gravity Strike are good PAs. If you want them both and have the space for them I would recommend them both but I personally only have the more expensive one. Rising Strike is probably a much better general use PA because usually you need to knock things down. Gravity strike is really only good for single target attacks or hitting two spots on larger enemies. The cheaper one is quicker to attack with the whole combo and more generally useful while the more expensive one hits alot and is slower with using the whole combo. I'm not really recommending one over the other though.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that while unimportant you should probably carry a handgun of somekind with you occasionally. It's not essential to a FF which is pretty clear given that it's the only gun they get to use but it might be useful somehow. The only handgun I carry around as a FF is a beamgun because it's not really worth investing that much into it and if you really need a handgun get a rayratore. It's the 6* yohmei handgun and has loads of PP which is a good thing if you actually need one for whatever reason.

I hope what I've said helps you on being a Fortefighter.

[Mayu]

Grab Dus Daggas
Grab Renkai
Grab Buten
Grab Shousen- W/E first claw PA
Grab Redda
Grab Dugrega( I've never tried it but I've herd it's really good)

As for my self I use the following

Dus Daggas
Twin Claw PA- All Three
First Claw PA

[Zorafim]

Wow, Rena. You really limit which PAs you use, don't you?


I wouldn't go so far as to say that Renkai is a "Garbage" PA, it simply has flaws that I don't like. Its damage seems like it'd be great (3 hits against three targets in such a short time is nothing to scoff about), but its lack of stuns and ease of interruption is noticeable.

And spinning break isn't as bad as the Bubonic Plague said. I myself would much rather be able to use daggas with a sword, but spinning break has the advantage of each hit stunning. This can be priceless in S2 missions, where you want to keep a target doing as little damage as possible.

One thing that Mr. Death didn't say about the final twin dagger PA was that it knocks enemies up. This would make it more of a utility PA than a damage PA like the other two (why do fighgungers get all the good utility PAs?), and useful if you want to keep an enemy locked in place while still doing damage. I can't attest to how much damage it does, seeing how I never used it, but it does seem like it can be useful.

For single dagger, the one that he called garbage was a ultility PA. He probably hasn't found a use for it, and frankly I've never used it. However, the first two hits knock up, and the last one knocks back. This makes it a rising strike, of sorts. I'd say this is good for larger enemies, who can get stunned by the first two hits and knocked back by the third. The damage doesn't at all look good, though.

And, I'd have to dissagree with handguns not being essential. There are so many things that can only be done in this game with a handgun, it's infuriating. So many enemies that take half damage, or stay out of your range so that handguns are the only way to hit them. Always keep one on you, you will need it.

[panzer_unit]

Get both (where applicable) shop PA's for every weapon. Get Ultimates for all your favorite types. Pretty simple really.

Having multiple PA's per weapon type is an advantage so you can use any really exceptional weapon you make or purchase in a variety of situations. That's one advantage Fighters have over Gunners... when you get something like a 50% sword, it can be an AOE or a multi-hit/multi-target attack if you've got both skills. Also with just one PA/weapon you'll run out of stuff to level before long.

[Mayu]

On 2007-09-11 11:41, Zorafim wrote:
Wow, Rena. You really limit which PAs you use, don't you?



Most useful in my opinion

As long as I have a 50% weapon lol

Any PA can do a billion dmg http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Zorafim]

Well, no wonder you like bukuu. I thought I was missing something.

[Mayu]

Bukuu: If I get bored of Renkai, This PA is multiple target
2 T-Claw PA: Decent <3 it
Ulti T-Claw: well I'm not sure, I don't even know why I use it

[Zorafim]

The final one isn't too bad, it's just slow. If you can somehow manage to get to the last part without being interrupted (seems impossible to do that now with any PA), the damage of the last hit is nothing to scoff at.

[Hrith]

Rensan Senshou-ga, the third twin claw PA is awesome on small monsters.

-It's powerful, their low HP means they'll die fast.
-The main drawback of Rensan Senshou-ga is that is easy to interupt, but small monsters rarely have enough power to stun a FF out of their PAs.
-No knockback move (self-explanatory).

I really like that PA, but it fails fast on monsters which can easily cancel your attacks.

[afish8doom]

Thanks for all the advice! I have begun buying the PAs that everyone agreed where a must (Das Duggas, Tornado Break) and I have also bought Rising Crush, but mainly just been leveling up Daggas and Break. I can allready see how expensive FFs get, but it will all be worth it. My ign is Severail so if you see me say hello!

Thanks Again. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[XenithFlare]

BUY BUTEN SHUREN-ZAN.

That is a MUST have for any respectable fighter. <_< Or gunner, for that matter.

...or Force.

[Zorafim]

Daggas, Tornado Break, Rising Strike... Good set. With that, you have pure damage, crowd control, and a knockaround.

[Neith]

What's this? A Fortefighter thread I haven't posted in? Time to change that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I've played Fortefighter since the job was released, and I've come to learn which PA's/Weapon Setups are most useful for me. Some might disagree, but whatever.

First, this is my pallette (I play a F Beast fF)
- Raygun w/ Burning Hit
- Giza-Misaki w/ Senten Kanzan-ga AND Shousen Totsuzan-ga
- Heavy Twins w/ Rising Crush AND Splendor Crush
- Caliburn w/ Tornado Break
- Muktrand w/ Dus Daggas
- Ank Pikor w/ Anga Dugrega AND Anga Redda
- Ran-Misaki w/ Rensan Senshou-ga AND Renzan Seidan-ga

I also sometimes bring Knuckles with Bogga Danga, Twin Daggers with Moubu Seiren-zan (Renkai is ok, but Tornado Break is more useful in large mobs, in my opinion- Renkai's damage blows.) Onto the weapons and PA's.

I'd recommend getting:
- Shousen Totsuzan-ga (at least until you have enough PA Frags for Senten) Good damage, but a lot of PP to use.

- Senten Kanzan-ga, once you have the Frags to get it. Fast, low PP cost.

- Rensan Senshou-ga, once you have the Frags to get it. Messes up small/slow monsters horribly. Don't use it on fast enemies like Go Vahras. You'll suffer for trying.

- Renzan Seidan-ga for the first two parts. Third part sucks in most situations. Still a decent PA though.

- Tornado Break OR Spinning Break. Get Spinning Break if you're getting Dus Robado or Renkai Buyou-zan. Otherwise get Tornado Break. Does high damage, and can cool down a fight if you're getting overwhelmed.

- Dus Robado AND Dus Daggas. You only need Robado if you're not using any other AoE PA though. Daggas is a necessity, it's incredible.

- Anga Dugrega. Keeps large mobs pinned down, and each hit does incredible damage. One of the few PA's you'll see frequent 1000-2000+ damage hits.

- Anga Redda. Slightly less damage per hit than Dugrega (except Redda's final hit- the ATP modifier on that is insane), used primarily for damage. If you want crowd control, get Dugrega instead.

- Bogga Danga. This PA is love/hate for most people here. I love it. It does respectable damage, is very accurate (thanks to knuckles' high ATA), and has limited crowd control. You also sparkle when you do the final part. If that isn't worth getting, I don't know what is http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif Bogga Zubba is decent too, great for crowd control.

- Rising Crush. I cannot stress how amazing this PA is. You can disrupt entire enemy formations with it, stop a rogue Deljaban owning you with Megid (try casting it in midair!), and knock away monsters incase you get overrun. It also doesn't cost a huge amount of PP, so it's definately worth getting. Rising Strike for Saber is nice too, but I admit I don't use a Saber as a fF.

- Moubu Seiren-zan. fF ATP+ Twin Daggers= Monster genocide. Moubu focuses entirely on damage, with only the final hit knocking away. The damage a fF (particularly a Cast or Beast fF) can do with Moubu is amazing.

Don't worry about Handguns. You do need one, for hitting things like Shagreece when they fly, but your ATP will make up for the ATP of a lower star rarity handgun. I use a Raygun, because it looks better than the 9* one. I still deal 200-300 a shot, and hit fine.

As someone said, fF is an expensive job to play. Without Resta, you're forced to use Mates, which get expensive when you're spamming Trimates. While you have unbelieveably high DFP, don't think you can take on anything. Monsters such as buffed Go Vahras will have no problem eating you alive. To function well as a fF, you ideally want to be getting the attention of enemies, and taking the damage for people, while dealing it back. High % elemental weapons and high % armour will help you immensely, though I find that 20%+ equips are fine.

It's a fun class, especially in a party. Solo is pretty rough- I advise changing to Fighgunner if you plan on that- the added freedom of ranged combat gives you some breathing space. As a fF, you should be constantly in the fray really, unless you think you can't handle a spawn (see huge spawn of buffed Deljabans or something).

It's a rewarding class to play, and great to see 4-figure damage popping up with some weapons. Hopefully I've been of some help.

[panzer_unit]

I love Moubu too, my favorite twin dagger PA... you can usually crank the whole combo out even in the middle of a pack of monsters, thanks to having stagger on every other hit as you go along.

I finally leveled Bukuu for Twin Claw to 11, and I'm having a lot of trouble getting value out of the second move. I got it for spamming against little guys like poltys, badira, etc... the first move is easy to position and catch 3 targets for 2 hits + flinch each. That's really good, except it combos into a movement attack that won't connect with all of the targets I just hit. So I'll just stick to the first part most of the time, jumping up and down on swarm-type creatures like a noob.

For equipment, weapon rank ultimately isn't that important. Keep everything with 44 or 50 element.

[Hrith]

I find the second part of Bukuu Rensen-ga is the most useful >_<

You did not even mention Bogga Robado, Uri ._.
It's an amazing knuckles PA; it's fast, does stun, juggle and knockback, is very, very powerful, and useful on small, medium and large creatures (with several weak spots) alike.

But you use Senten Kanzan-ga, so I forgive you <3

[panzer_unit]

Maybe I just don't have enough practice bunching targets up with it but like if I just hit 3 ageeta twice each with the first part, the second part of the PA won't hit the one on the right with the first move and only hits the center opponent on the second.

Maybe it works on 3-target large mobs, and obviously in large groups of monsters where you've got new targets wherever you go... I didn't get to try since I was just running through moonlight beast at the time.

[SolomonGrundy]

Long time no post: one thing that has not (yet), been mentioned is that females and males have different animations for melee attacks.

the most noticeable case of this is with twin claws, where females have an extra attack. that being said, I find twin claws somewhat of a niche weapon.

you can get by in this game with 3 or 4 PAs regardless of them being garbage or not. The game does not currently reward finesse, and the hit boxes (that is, the area of effect of a enemy's basic attack) are wide enough to make dodging impractical.

Dus Duggas is a staple, as is Rising Strike (since you start with it). The first single dager PA is also a utility PA (large number of hits, decent damage). I feel confident you can go through the entire game with just these three.

Fortefighters get S ranks in only 1 of those 3 weapons though, so for appearances sake, you may want to pick up a PA for Axes, Fists, Claws, Twin claws, and Swords.

Someone mentioned Fortefighters difficulty while soloing, and I have gone on many long rants in this regard.

Final note: ATA...while some posters feel that attacking from behind, and higher weapon ranks, and higher character levels make ATA a non-issue, others feel that hitting for "0" on a consistent basis is a problem (especially when using a PA like rising strike vs an enemy like a sworded go varha). Pick you race accordingly.

[panzer_unit]

Sworded Go-Vahra are hit sponges compared to buffed Deljabans in HIVE S2. I've whiffed entire Bogga Zubba attacks on 'em.

[Neith]

On 2007-09-13 12:09, Hrith wrote:
You did not even mention Bogga Robado, Uri ._.
It's an amazing knuckles PA; it's fast, does stun, juggle and knockback, is very, very powerful, and useful on small, medium and large creatures (with several weak spots) alike.

But you use Senten Kanzan-ga, so I forgive you <3



Yeah, I didn't mention Bogga Robado because I don't have it- didn't want to judge it purely on what I've seen. Senten Kanzan-ga is awesome, even just for the jump http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[panzer_unit]

I bought Bogga Robado to try an ultimate melee PA, and overwrote it pretty shortly afterwards. Seems like the read-headed cousin of Bogga Danga to me. Worse ATP and ATA, no knockback on the second move... the final move would have to have the same insane damage modifier as Danga's and knockback on every hit just to pull even IMO.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-13 13:40 ]</font>

[biggabertha]

On 2007-09-12 11:51, XenithFlare wrote:
BUY BUTEN SHUREN-ZAN.

That is a MUST have for any respectable fighter. <_< Or gunner, for that matter.

...or Force.



But but but... What about a Protranser? We're kiind of fighters too!

Fortefighters I'm sure love their two handed weapons or dual wields, you rarely ever see them use a single handed weapon unless a boss is flying overhead and they're plaing on a PS2.

[Zorafim]

Two handed weapons are win, yes. Even if I used FG weapons, I doubt I would simply because two handed weapons are so much more win.

[Garanz-Baranz]

hmm...

I dunno much about the other PA's I don't use... so I'll give my knowledge on what I use.

Long Sword- This Is posibly the most powerful weapon in a Fortefighter's arsenal aside from the Axe. This weapon is VERY VERY VERY useful for fighting pesky small and fast enemies, it's the best melee weapon to use on Golmoro's in my opinion.
-Tornado Break- This is the Sword's most accurate PA, as it actually can hit targets at a fair distance, Very useful on those Small and fast enemies again. it's powerful too over all.
-Spinning Break- This PA is a little slow, Dus Daggas is more effective in that perpose, If you want linear PA's, Dus Daggas is likely the best.

Twin Saber- These are fair, fast and strong weapons. good on mono-o-mono fights with stationary enemies, but it's pretty great on wide spread damage with it's PA's too.
-Rising Crush- This is like the greatest stun PA in the game, locks enemies in a flurry of Knock Ups, good damage too.
-Assault Crush- This PA absorbs PP faster then you can spam Grenaders. It may be very powerful, but it hit's only 1 target on the first 2 combos. Not my style.
-Splendor Crush- Very powerful, Very fast, but easyly interupted until final combo. hit's 3 times on 2 targets on the first 2 combos, the final hit has 4 hits, that hit 3 targets, the first three hits do knock up, and the last does knock back.

Single Saber + Handgun combo- This is a decent combo, Handguns are the only Gun the FF's get, USE THE DAM THING!!!!!, as for sabers, their basically a lighter version of the Twin saber.
-Rising Strike- Basically Rising Crush's little brother, little stronger per hit, but less hits.
-Gravity Strike- Splendor Crush's little brother, stronger per hit, but less hits.

Axe- Axe is a king pin on large slow enemies, HIGH damage and not bad recovery speed. It's basic combo is strong, and accurate, and it's 3rd hit knocks down.
-Anga Redda- The most powerful combo currently in game, though it's easyly countered, every part of the combo goes about 200-150 damage more powerful every part of the combo.
-Anga Dugrega- This PA is a pain in the freaking arse to level without limiting it as your only attack, but it's the most useful of the current Axe PA's.

Twin Claws- Twin Claws are picky weapons, I use ONLY Vahra Claws, or as I call "Vahra Clawds", just for High PP, it's not a bad weapon, Twin Claws are BEST on Female's, as they get and extra hit on the basic combo, if your not Female, don't use Twin Claws, unless you REALLY want to. o.o
-"Jumping Claw PA"- This PA is very good, it hits 3 Targets per swing, with 2 swings in the first 2 combos. Very useful on multi target enemies, and small-Medium mobs.
-"Rapid Claw PA"- This PA does 4 hit's on one target on the first combo, in a stylish pattern,, then a Knock up and Knock down in the next 2 hits, in combo2, and an energy burst in the final combo.
Pretty good if you want to fight quickly with claws.
-"Burrow Claw PA"- I haven't gotten this PA so... it's not to my knowledge of it's abilities.

If you want to swap out Claws, then get Spears,

Spears- Fast and powerful weapon, it hit's 2 linear targets in a small cone pattern.
-Dus Daggas- This basically enhances the power of the Spears basic combo, and has HIGH HIGH damage.
-Dus Robado- This PA mimics Tornado Break, but in a much lesser fassion, smaller radius really, but more hits. use what you wish here.

Strategies for using these weapons... just start at the longest range posible, and hit on from there, or if the enemy jumps back, use at closest range posible. just try learning what you wish to use.

[panzer_unit]

something it's only fair to mention about Spinning Break... it's REALLY good for staying on top of fast-moving creatures like Golmoro because it's got tons of reach and good forward travel.

[XenithFlare]

On 2007-09-13 15:36, biggabertha wrote:

On 2007-09-12 11:51, XenithFlare wrote:
BUY BUTEN SHUREN-ZAN.

That is a MUST have for any respectable fighter. <_< Or gunner, for that matter.

...or Force.



But but but... What about a Protranser? We're kiind of fighters too!

Fortefighters I'm sure love their two handed weapons or dual wields, you rarely ever see them use a single handed weapon unless a boss is flying overhead and they're plaing on a PS2.



That's the SOLE reason I'm dreading becoming a PT; no single daggers. = They can do MASSIVE damage with Buten and a decent % dagger. Knockdown + knockback? Hell, I'll use a dagger even without a gun in have (though I almost always have an xbow)... though I think the ps2 part went over my head XD

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-13 12:19, panzer_unit wrote:
Maybe I just don't have enough practice bunching targets up with it but like if I just hit 3 ageeta twice each with the first part, the second part of the PA won't hit the one on the right with the first move and only hits the center opponent on the second.

Maybe it works on 3-target large mobs, and obviously in large groups of monsters where you've got new targets wherever you go... I didn't get to try since I was just running through moonlight beast at the time.It may be practice, but it may be that we play differently.

The second part of Bukuu Rensen-ga is very easy to maneuver, so I aim manually. I rarely hold the "lock" button when meleeing, anyway.


On 2007-09-13 13:13, UrikoBB3 wrote:
Senten Kanzan-ga is awesome, even just for the jump http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/1.png


On 2007-09-13 13:37, panzer_unit wrote:
I bought Bogga Robado to try an ultimate melee PA, and overwrote it pretty shortly afterwards. Seems like the read-headed cousin of Bogga Danga to me. Worse ATP and ATA, no knockback on the second move... the final move would have to have the same insane damage modifier as Danga's and knockback on every hit just to pull even IMO.err, right. I doubt you have gotten that PA past 11 to say such bullshit. Or you memory doesn't serve you well.

Bogga Robado is much more powerful than Bogga Danga, which is not hard since Bogga Danga has one of the lowest DPS of all released skills.
I hope you are not refering to per hit damage, because Bogga Robado hits more, and faster.

Bogga Robado first part does stun, second part does stun and juggle, third part does knockback on every hit.

Bogga Robado also has better range than Bogga Danga and the best radius of all knuckle PAs.

Bogga Robado may cost more PP, but for the same PP sepnt, it will outdamage the other two knuckle PAs.

So it's only comparative disadvantage is 9% ATA less than Bogga Danga.
I won't say those 9% ATA are irrelevant, but seeing knuckles have the highest ATA in the game, I'll say they are much less relevant that 9% ATA on axes or double sabers.


On 2007-09-13 16:47, Garanz-Baranz wrote:
-Splendor Crush- Very powerful, Very fast, but easyly interupted until final combo. hit's 3 times on 2 targets on the first 2 combos, the final hit has 4 hits, that hit 3 targets, the first three hits do knock up, and the last does knock back.Splendor Crush has the lowest DPS of all three twin saber PAs, lol http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Splndor Crush is also the slowest of the three to execute.
So you may want to revise your "very powerful, very fast" comment ;s

You're right that it's easily interupted, about as bad as Renkai Buyou-zan for that.


On 2007-09-13 22:14, XenithFlare wrote:
That's the SOLE reason I'm dreading becoming a PT; no single daggers. = They can do MASSIVE damage with Buten and a decent % dagger. Knockdown + knockback? Hell, I'll use a dagger even without a gun in have (though I almost always have an xbow)... though I think the ps2 part went over my head XDGravity Strike is as damaging as Buten Shuren-zan ;o
Spinning Strike will be even more, in a way.

[biggabertha]

Those of us on PS2s, face the problem of switching weapons when we're in teams bigger than three. Every weapon you switch (aside froma duplicate weapon on a different palette slot) will make you defenceless for the duratioon it loads. So after grounding a boss from flight, the reason you see some players seemingly stand still with weapon in hand is because the weapon hasn't loaded on their PS2 yet!

Traps are just as bad too...

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-14 01:50, Hrith wrote:
Bogga Robado is much more powerful than Bogga Danga, which is not hard since Bogga Danga has one of the lowest DPS of all released skills.
I hope you are not refering to per hit damage, because Bogga Robado hits more, and faster.

Bogga Robado first part does stun, second part does stun and juggle, third part does knockback on every hit.


Bogga Danga hits 2x3, 2x2, 3x2... Bogga Robado hits 1x4, 2x2, and I understand the last hit's 2x4. So same number of hits for both. Danga's got a 5% damage modifier in its favor. Danga's also got per-hit damage progression on par with the best of any OMG BIG NUMBERS type PA... Redda, Durega, Rensan, etc... only the OMG BIG NUMBERS come out for Danga on a move that deals 3x2 hits with good reach (or 3x1 with excellent range if you don't have any targets handy) instead of weaksauce 2x1 or 3x1.

Even supposing Robado ALSO gets the best treatment a PA can get for progression, and the last move doesn't routinely blow all its available targets away before its done, it'll maybe break even against Danga's stronger start and slightly higher damage throughout... enough to pay the 5% difference in PA costs maybe? Good Job Robado.

Crowd control? Danga will stun 2 targets on the first move rather than 1, then has stronger effects wipeout + knockback on the second move as well. Less chance of interruption (wasting that DPS you value so much, and more importantly PP if you're caught at a bad time) and faster/cheaper knockarounds (2 move combos will wipe out and blow away 2 monsters) in S2 missions. Robado's much weaker.

Faster? Robado seems pretty quick. Of course, having only 6 PA combos per weapon, DPS is entirely irrelevant compared to how much and how reliably your move deals damage... especially with a Win Button melee weapon that will see really heavy use through a block or a mission. Yeah, this is all stuff you've heard before and I know you're too biased to get any of it... but I hate the thought of new players being fed a load of misleading crap.
Or maybe you're joking? It's impossible to tell.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-14 08:00 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-14 06:35, panzer_unit wrote:
Bogga Danga hits 2x3, 2x2, 3x2... Bogga Robado hits 1x4, 2x2, and I understand the last hit's 2x4. So same number of hits for both. Danga's got a 5% damage modifier in its favor. Danga's also got per-hit damage progression on par with the best of any OMG BIG NUMBERS type PA... Redda, Durega, Rensan, etc... only the OMG BIG NUMBERS come out for Danga on a move that deals 3x2 hits with good reach (or 3x1 with excellent range if you don't have any targets handy) instead of weaksauce 2x1 or 3x1. http://psupedia.info/Skills#Knuckles

I'm not sure what you're talking about, now.

Bogga Danga has 150% ATP and 87% ATA.
Bogga Robado has 155% ATP, and 78% ATA.

It's Bogga Robado which has 5% more ATP =/


Both are rather safe PAs, since they always stun, launch or knockback targets, but Bogga Robado is much more powerful.

Don't make me take screenshots of it -_-;

The knockback at the second part of Bogga Danga is also very awkward, and it's almost impossible to follow up on the same targets, let alone several targets.

Be honest, you will never hit 3x2 on the final part of Bogga Danga.

Where as Bogga Robado does not suffer from any awkward animation, every part is very efficient and the next move follows up perfectly.

Bogga Robado also has better range and radius.

For two "stun" PAs, Robado does everything better -- except the -9% ATA I mentioned earlier.
But I'll take better DPS, better animation, better range and radius over 9% ATA.


Crowd control? Danga will stun 2 targets on the first move rather than 1, then has stronger effects wipeout + knockback on the second move as well.How is that useful? You're just kicking monsters out of your reach and aim on a damage PA =/
It's even worse than Spiral Dance.

And Bogga Robado is also much faster, so even if the first attack only hits one target, I have never been canceled before the second part kicks in.


Less chance of interruption (wasting that DPS you value so much)How can Bogga Robado be more susceptible to interruptions?
If anything, the slow start of Bogga Danga is more likely to get canceled.

But really, either those PAs are nearly impervious to canceling from monsters.

I do not value DPS over other aspects, but it's an important aspect of PAs.


Robado's much weaker.You need to realise Bogga Danga is much weaker.
For the same PP spent, Robado outdamages it.


But I hate the thought of new players being fed a load of misleading crap.
Or maybe you're joking? It's impossible to tell.No, I'm basing my posts upon facts.

You're the one who admitted to not having Bogga Robado, yet bashing it.

I have all three knuckle PAs at 30.

In all honesty, I regard Bogga Danga as the worst skill in the game on par with Splendor Crush.
Bogga Danga just has no redeeming feature.
Bogga Robado does everything it does but better.
If I want a knockback PA, I use Anga Dugrega.

You are greatly overestimating Bogga Danga based on its potential, but in actual gameplay, the second hit will send the monsters out of your aim, so you will at best hit one target with the third part.
That really is what kills this Photon Art, the first two parts could have heralded a great PA.
Not to mention the final part leaves you very vulnerable.

It's very hard, if not impossible, to land all 16 hits of Bogga Danga, whereas it's very easy to land all 16 hits from Bogga Robado.

But even if you get all 16 hits on both, Bogga Robado deals higher damage, you seem to have that confused.

[panzer_unit]

I did mis-remember the damage modifier numbers. Robado's also a bit more expensive than I remembered as well. The first part of the combo is hideously expensive for what little it does, and worse because it made a lot of zeroes when I was testing it out in reasonable-level missions... getting interrupted before the last move goes off would be a major headache.

I find it pretty easy get full hits at the end of Bogga Danga. Grinna and Stateria are given, and it's easily possible in a crowd of monsters like most Go-Vahra fights where there are just so many targets that you can kick 2 away and still have 3 to roll into. It's my go-to move for handling most dangerous monsters, very reliable knockback PA and you don't have to blow a full combo if you're only dealing with one target.

What's the per-hit damage at the end of Robado like then... same as the starting hits?

[SolomonGrundy]

I usee danga vs enemies that bunch (go-varha, and deljaban), and robado vs single hit enemies (1st part). I have found the delay/charge up on the second part of robado failry annoying. Danga has barely any noticable flinch in it's combo and is easily interruped as well, however.

[Hrith]

But why would you use Bogga Danga on Stateria or Grinna? So many PAs are much better suited for damaging them =/

I'll get numbers for Bogga and Robado when I next log on.
I have not touched FF in a little while.

[panzer_unit]

I use it 'cause I've got some nice Lightning and Dark element knuckles and it does a lot of damage maybe? It's just on the rotation along with all the other PA's that deal good damage on 3-target creatures. Spinning Break, Gravity Strike, Anga Redda, Bukuu... Dus Daggas would be right up there if I learn that one again.

[Zorafim]

I use Danga on small groups, since it's easy to blow them away and continue the PA. For smaller groups, Robado is better for its sheer damage. I don't like how its first three hits don't stun, but from then on it can keep an enemy in tow.

[XenithFlare]

XD This is completely off-topic, and has been done before, but after the badassness inherent in Hrith's screenie, I felt obliged to tinker with it:

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8536/hrithcontrastcopyoo5.png

[Hrith]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I take numerous pics like these.

Here is Bogga Danga, I may dislike the PA's usefulness, it looks awesome nonetheless.

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga1.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga2.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga3.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga4.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga5.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga6.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga7.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga8.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_danga9.png


Panzer should like ;o

[Shishi-O]

On 2007-09-09 22:42, afish8doom wrote:
I bought PSU the day it came out, but never gave it a chance, and stuck to PSO. The other day though I started playing and its alot of fun, but i feel so disgustingly nooby amongst every other player.

I just wanted some help in making my character so i could start the game out right and not get to far ahead to find out... my character is a piece of garbage. I would like to make a Hunter/Fortefighter, I like the close range, and if anyone could help me out by posting some pointers and tips it would be much appreciated. Thanks.


Skuda Edit: Title Edited for clarity.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skuda on 2007-09-09 23:34 ]</font>
hi there, i will say that i am a 2x FF

and also now a fighgunner, why?

easy FF is too limiting.

1) sure my beast had an insanely high hit power, but way too many zeros, wasted pp dude.

2) u have absolutely no option but to get up close and personal, u have insane hp, but i guarantee it will all drain away as some techer is right next to u casting some form of zonde( i will bet u money on this, my first post on these forumz was about this), not to bitch on the techers but see it thier way...they don't have to heal u if they would rather cast zonde...it's not thier job.
so in regards to this u want to be able to strike from a distance with actual and not joke damage even a python handgun on a FF would give, 4-500 dmg is not cool if it is every thre seconds, with maylee hit( hp stealing frag PA).
so if you are Fi u can do 2-215 damage in a constant stream of white numbers( straight jarba killa foo) and with a beast Fi not even so much a 6 zeros per clip( not to mention maylee fury( supa stun locka) stun locking frag PA) being beast and going Fi, pretty much kills the beasts major weeknesses( low ata/ having no choice but to go in and get killed/ not be healed by techers, becoming megid bate.
this is pretty much the same point so i will add on, i cannot say enough good things about the twin handgunz Fi gets to use( i am spamming the hell out the frag PA,...twin maylee i think, it lowers the defense on whatever to the point of it, dying much faster than i expected, in a group it is great, u reduce dfnse, the group incinerates enemy.
not to mention it hits like a semi-automatic python.

3) evasion is way better, to the point where u don't die before u notice you are dying, i knoww FF, that is a major problem, and even to go beast at the most opportune moment( i will state again, completely at your leisure, having choice is extremely important to me)

4) u get to use all of the FF wepz in A rank, and to be really honest, most all FF that i know of play as Fi, they use the fast attack wepz combined with FF power, twin sabers/twin daggers/sabers/ daggers ect. why limit ur ability to pour out huge amounts of pain gun wise from a safe non-scapedoll wasting distance??

5) double sabers!- u will hear alot of crap spoken about double sabers but i will say they are the best, most versatile mid-multi-target hittin'/ huge damage single / multi-target PA incinerators, the tops when it comes to exercising choice
Spiral Dance-( you can refute this if u want) i have no greater thrill in this game than coralling and stunlocking 2 jarbas at a time with this PA, it is the funnest thing ever( once they break free i revert to machine gun, of coarse), but truth be told i don't mind wasting a scape, if that should ever happen( yeah it happened once) if anything try it yourself( the class and wepz i mean)

my main was FF then Fi then GT then FG then PT, he will stick to PT cuz it rawkus...trapz are fun XDXDXDXD

"rom" was FF then Fi where he will remain, cuz i can say " u three(noobz) go left", clean out a room and catch up to clean out another, and still keep our time under 15 min in seabed.( being able to Fi, go beast, and recover without touching a trimate i gotta tell ya, as someone who is FF at heart still, it's like i asked sonic team to fix FF and they said sure,...Fi

the techer is cool teching, and will never switch from FT

the cast i have may be wiped ( cast females have horrible luck) and replaced with a cast male, ( four 3* luck days so far since holy luck week), FG whatever my decision( 10 armour lvls on PM though).

FF is a class i understand really, if u choose to stay so it will be excruciatingly expensive. scapes, trimates, pp, ect.

6) the game is also not kind to the exclusively hunter type, infact the handgun is made fun of frequently in these forumz( especially when dicussing desert terror).

7) gunners are the favored type in this game, the power of FG is broken really. so atleast you can use the wepz u want (the FF wepz) and still be able to put it down on the gun side, Fi will be considerably less expensive, more versatile...truth be told i have died 3 times since switching to Fi months ago, and it was invisible megid/ dancing with jarbas.

[XenithFlare]

Yohmei knuckles ftw! XD I love the "rods" the Yohmei versions have; much better looking than sharp points. =P

[panzer_unit]

I've got Gratacle+10, 390PP makes for a ton of crowd control.

PS I was going to complain about image sizes taking forever to load... but it probably just takes some time for that much awesome to come across the internet.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-15 12:22 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

Would have been more awesome with skellas.

[Hrith]

If only S grade weapons dropped for me, yeah.

[XenithFlare]

Awesome loads at 64kb/s.

Sexy, now... that takes forever...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XenithFlare on 2007-09-15 14:50 ]</font>

[Shadow_Wing]

On 2007-09-15 09:06, Shishi-O wrote:
stuff


My friend is a beast FF, he's a pretty good one at that too, and doesn't feel too much of the effects of most of the decrements that Shishi feels with the fF class. While his ata does need some work, I always joke about if he needs some of mine since as a cast fG I have waaaaaay too much of it, it's easily compensated by attacking mobs from behind, and what he always does.

He's not much of a meseta sink, and doesn't use mates like a madman, he uses em as much as I do, with or without a force.

And being a decked out fG I can assure you, my damage isn't broken... You sir need to play with some well geared fFs and fTs and then tell me our dmg is broken <<;. My DPS is high but isn't as high as I've seen fighters and techers can pull =/. But it's true that our ability to not get hit is more than exceptional, I can be left alone to clear side rooms and still catch up to the main group and without much of a hit on my meds.

Sure Figh is slightly more versatile of a class, but fF has it's own perks if played right.

[Shishi-O]

On 2007-09-15 15:23, Shadow_Wing wrote:

On 2007-09-15 09:06, Shishi-O wrote:
stuff


My friend is a beast FF, he's a pretty good one at that too, and doesn't feel too much of the effects of most of the decrements that Shishi feels with the fF class. While his ata does need some work, I always joke about if he needs some of mine since as a cast fG I have waaaaaay too much of it, it's easily compensated by attacking mobs from behind, and what he always does.

He's not much of a meseta sink, and doesn't use mates like a madman, he uses em as much as I do, with or without a force.

And being a decked out fG I can assure you, my damage isn't broken... You sir need to play with some well geared fFs and fTs and then tell me our dmg is broken <<;. My DPS is high but isn't as high as I've seen fighters and techers can pull =/. But it's true that our ability to not get hit is more than exceptional, I can be left alone to clear side rooms and still catch up to the main group and without much of a hit on my meds.

Sure Figh is slightly more versatile of a class, but fF has it's own perks if played right.

the major gist of my post was exerting choice and not having to play just one way.

i see your point though.

i will reiterate that i play exactly how i want when i want in regards to the Fi class, i don't die less i'm dancing with jarbas/ invisible megid.

FG power/ SE is broken, no offense whatsoever i appreciate your response, but it is so broken.

as FG i can solo sealab in a pretty good clip( done as a lvl 4 FG),...so broken, the classes ability as a whole, not just atp( even though that is broken)

spam virus traps and virus bullets, if u really dont get it.

ps- i play with well equiped gunners, first as FF( where i barely got to touch anything, then as Fi where i was fortunate enough to tag everything, then FG where everything died overwhelmingly fast.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shishi-O on 2007-09-16 07:25 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

So what is the damage modifier for Bogga Robado's last move? Inquiring minds still want to know.

[Hrith]

155%? ;o

[Shadow_Wing]

DoTs such as Fire and Virus aren't worth it unless the mob has enough HP or annoying enough to kill though normal means. These include flies and large mobs only, otherwise the DoT of Burn SE4 and Virus SE4 are really meaningless.

It makes killing small things probably 5 secs earlier otherwise, that is if it procs and does a DoT before it dies to my hands with normal high DPS weapons, it's really more worth it to control mobs than DoT em using shock/freeze/confuse/silence.

I know the fG class pretty well, and trust me, if I could pull numbers like 800dmg every time I WSes to multiple units, and hit for 4k a shot every time I cast, I'll get back to you that our class is broken.

Sorry for the derail but I hate it when people say my class is broken, it isn't, I like it the way it is and it's nowhere over the perks and disadvantages of the other classes. fG is one of the lowest DPS compared to the other forte classes when you compare em between top of the line vs top of the line. Yea it does surprise people when I say I can shoot for 700+ with my rifle, 800+ with my twins and 1750 with my shotgun, but compared to DJ's uber tech dmg (o god lol I can't even compete with him anymore XD), and my friend's collection of high % weapons I'm nowhere near touching their dmg.

[Sophia]

You arent doing it right, then!

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-16 10:28, Hrith wrote:
155%? ;o


Same per-hit as the first move?

[Hrith]

So, took my sweet time, but here are the figures.

Lv88/10 female cast Fortefighter.
16% light Gratacle +7
Unsafe Passage A, Lv 30 Pannons.
No buff/debuff whatsoever.
Obviously, no critical attack.


Bogga Danga
1) 400 x 6 = 2400
2) 510 x 4 = 2040
3) 630 x 6 = 3780

= 8220


Bogga Robado
1) 445 x 4
2) 560 x 4
3) 500 x 8

= 8020



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-18 04:05 ]</font>

[Hrith]

[quote]On 2007-09-18 04:03, Hrith wrote:
So, took my sweet time, but here are the figures.

Lv88/10 female cast Fortefighter.
16% light Gratacle +7
Unsafe Passage A, Lv 30 Pannons.
No buff/debuff whatsoever.
Obviously, no critical attack.


Bogga Danga
1) 400 x 6 = 2400
2) 510 x 4 = 2040
3) 630 x 6 = 3780

= 8220


Bogga Robado
1) 450 x 4
2) 560 x 4
3) 500 x 8

= 8040

[Neith]

On 2007-09-15 09:06, Shishi-O wrote:
hi there, i will say that i am a 2x FF

and also now a fighgunner, why?

easy FF is too limiting.

1) sure my beast had an insanely high hit power, but way too many zeros, wasted pp dude.

No, beast fF's only miss a little. I've said this numerous times. If you're consistently missing with a fF, you're doing something very wrong. Seriously, I've seen a lot of people complain about fF's low accuracy. I have a Lv90/10 fF, and although I do miss more than a Fighgunner, i still connect with a large amount of my attacks.



2) u have absolutely no option but to get up close and personal, u have insane hp, but i guarantee it will all drain away as some techer is right next to u casting some form of zonde( i will bet u money on this, my first post on these forumz was about this), not to bitch on the techers but see it thier way...they don't have to heal u if they would rather cast zonde...it's not thier job.

The whole point of fF IS close combat. If you're staying at range (unless obviously, it's something that would be plain stupid to melee), then you shouldn't play one. fF has high HP/DFP for a reason. Yes, you get cut down in harder areas. That's what support Forces, and more importantly, Mates are for. I'm sick of seeing fF's who don't use mates, and run around until the nearest Force Resta spams them. You have mates, use them. If you're soloing, it's not a good idea to do it as a fF.



so in regards to this u want to be able to strike from a distance with actual and not joke damage even a python handgun on a FF would give, 4-500 dmg is not cool if it is every thre seconds, with maylee hit( hp stealing frag PA).

Mayalee Hit is poor, don't use it. I use Burning Hit, and barely miss. I still hit 350-400 a shot.



3) evasion is way better, to the point where u don't die before u notice you are dying, i knoww FF, that is a major problem, and even to go beast at the most opportune moment( i will state again, completely at your leisure, having choice is extremely important to me)

fF doesn't need EVP. You rely on your DFP. EVP doesn't help you unless you have an absolute ton of it, which Fighgunner doesn't. I'm talking fT amounts of EVP. Even then, you still take hits regularly.




5) double sabers!- u will hear alot of crap spoken about double sabers but i will say they are the best, most versatile mid-multi-target hittin'/ huge damage single / multi-target PA incinerators, the tops when it comes to exercising choice

Sorry, but Double Sabers are one of the worst weapons in the game against single targets. They're slow, weak, and inaccurate. Against groups, they're great.

fF is a party orientated class. It is not a solo one. It is not a ranged combat class. This debate is like the Chain Sawd vs Red Sword debate of PSO, it'll never end. Just when you think it has, someone else restarts it.

Fighgunner has an advantage over fF in terms of ability for ranged combat, and traps. It specialises in fast weapons. Fortefighter forgoes the traps and ranged weaponry for a large arsenal of melee weaponry, which is focused on the slow and powerful kind (sword, axe etc).

I play fF and Figh on my main. Once I cap Figh, I'm going back to fF, because I feel I can bring more to a party currently playing as one. Fighgunner is far more useful for solo over fF, where the ranged combat becomes very useful.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-18 04:03, Hrith wrote:
So, took my sweet time, but here are the figures.

Lv88/10 female cast Fortefighter.
16% light Gratacle +7
Unsafe Passage A, Lv 30 Pannons.
No buff/debuff whatsoever.
Obviously, no critical attack.


Bogga Danga
1) 400 x 6 = 2400
2) 510 x 4 = 2040
3) 630 x 6 = 3780

= 8220


Bogga Robado
1) 445 x 4 = 1780
2) 560 x 4 = 2240
3) 500 x 8 = 4000

= 8040


Thanks Hrith. The per-hit damage on Robado's last move isn't as extreme (either high or low) as I'd expected.

By the way, I'm starting to think damage progression in PA combos (like 'Danga there) is a fixed ATP bonus and affected by element modifier for each step, rather than another percent modifier like I'd thought. Comparing my Protranser damage with Fortefighter makes it pretty obvious. Also, when looking at non-elemental damage the progression steps are nice round numbers. +100 damage, +100 again.

With virtually every modifier besides character and weapon ATP being %-based... PA combos featuring damage boosts is one of the few ways for a low-ATP fighter to close the gap with the strong guys.

[Shadow_Wing]

On 2007-09-18 05:17, UrikoBB3 wrote:


2) u have absolutely no option but to get up close and personal, u have insane hp, but i guarantee it will all drain away as some techer is right next to u casting some form of zonde( i will bet u money on this, my first post on these forumz was about this), not to bitch on the techers but see it thier way...they don't have to heal u if they would rather cast zonde...it's not thier job.

The whole point of fF IS close combat. If you're staying at range (unless obviously, it's something that would be plain stupid to melee), then you shouldn't play one. fF has high HP/DFP for a reason. Yes, you get cut down in harder areas. That's what support Forces, and more importantly, Mates are for. I'm sick of seeing fF's who don't use mates, and run around until the nearest Force Resta spams them. You have mates, use them. If you're soloing, it's not a good idea to do it as a fF.


More fF need to party with bad Forces, hell every none force class should play with bad forces XD. I hit my trimates before DJ even changes wands, it's kinda funny, and anyone who has played with DJ knows how fast he's on buffing and resta.

I remember one time when we were in Denes relics, wasabi, our force and a great guy overall, said "Can't resta now, lvling up zonde" XD.


No, beast fF's only miss a little. I've said this numerous times. If you're consistently missing with a fF, you're doing something very wrong. Seriously, I've seen a lot of people complain about fF's low accuracy. I have a Lv90/10 fF, and although I do miss more than a Fighgunner, i still connect with a large amount of my attacks.

It's low enough that a SPS makes u miss a lot! (one reason why my friend always crying about his ATA XD)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-09-18 17:04 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-09-18 05:17, UrikoBB3 wrote:

No, beast fF's only miss a little.[snip]



If you have 8* equipment, and use zodiarides, or there is a techer, then you are mostly right.

I noticed I started hitting more when I updated some equipment to the higher * levels. but there are still too many enemies that I miss with, due to thier own movement, thier EVP, or wonky PA animations.

oh, and forget about axes. all that ATP...useless.




The whole point of fF IS close combat.

Correct!



Mayalee Hit is poor, don't use it. I use Burning Hit, and barely miss. I still hit 350-400 a shot.

Agree, though I use virus hit, as there are many fire enemies. That's not the point. handguns suck, and jarba's are everywhere.



fF doesn't need EVP. You rely on your DFP. EVP doesn't help you unless you have an absolute ton of it, which Fighgunner doesn't. I'm talking fT amounts of EVP. Even then, you still take hits regularly.

the real problem is DFP does not work. That is, the amount of damage enemies at higher ranks hit for, coupled with hit boxes that make dodging a joke means that HP is your only real defense. if THAT's the case, better to be a Fortegunner, and use your DoTs to take enemies down while dodging. Fortegunners have 2000+ HP, while taking far less daamge.

MST works, DFP does not. Why?



fF is a party orientated class. It is not a solo one. It is not a ranged combat class. This debate is like the Chain Sawd vs Red Sword debate of PSO, it'll never end. Just when you think it has, someone else restarts it.

No, it is more like the ranger vs hunter debate in PSO. rangers had 3 weapons: spread needle, yas 9000, and frozen shooter, that made them pretty much broken.

Hunters at least had gobs of ATP and HP, and uber high HP. As a level 153 HUcast running with a chain sawd, I had 500 more ATP than your average ranger of the same level, and enemies did not have nearly the same HP.

I recall taking down enemies like Sinows, or baranz in less than 2 full combos.

In PSU, I can empty SEVERAL weapons and not take down a polhavorah. It's LAME. Also, why are the other 2 forte classes so easil able to solo and not Fortefighters?


Fighgunner has an advantage over fF in terms of ability for ranged combat, and traps.

Yes! and it makes a HUGE difference. I play ff becasue I am stubborn, not becasue it is better.


I play fF and Figh on my main. Once I cap Figh, I'm going back to fF, because I feel I can bring more to a party currently playing as one.

good for you. they still suck balls as a class though.

[panzer_unit]

[b]On 2007-09-18 21:59, SolomonGrundy wroteIf you have 8* equipment, and use zodiarides, or there is a techer, then you are mostly right.

I noticed I started hitting more when I updated some equipment to the higher * levels. but there are still too many enemies that I miss with, due to thier own movement, thier EVP, or wonky PA animations.

oh, and forget about axes. all that ATP...useless.
...
Agree, though I use virus hit, as there are many fire enemies. That's not the point. handguns suck, and jarba's are everywhere.
...
the real problem is DFP does not work. That is, the amount of damage enemies at higher ranks hit for, coupled with hit boxes that make dodging a joke means that HP is your only real defense.
...
In PSU, I can empty SEVERAL weapons and not take down a polhavorah. It's LAME. Also, why are the other 2 forte classes so easil able to solo and not Fortefighters?


The ATA argument... WTF... Fortefighter weapons cover a HUGE range on that stat, you've got some with 300+ ATA, then axes (which lots of people swear are still fine) barely clocking 100. If you're having real trouble against a certain enemy type, use something with appropriate accuracy. Hell, the ultimate for ATA is knuckles single-tapping with regular attacks... which is also like the best single-target regular attack damage output you've got.

Handguns hit quite hard compared to PA on melee resistant enemies... 300 a hit isn't bad ranged damage for most classes. They kill Jarbas without a second thought. You need to use one even if they're not glamorous, deal with it.

About DFP, I changed class to Fortefighter and forgot to put my armor on. Didn't really notice from the size of the hits I was taking... on the other hand I put on my Rabol Asted and started evading hits all over the place. There's a reason that all the fighter-specific armor has enormous EVP, maybe it's that it works pretty well?

Polas... why not whack away with regular saber or dagger attacks and just use PA's to flip the thing over whenever it stands up? It'll take a while but you're not going to make a dent in your weapon's PP and you're not going to need to heal. If you're going to talk about how cheap and easy a gunner's got it, why not compare with a fighter's equivalent strategy... if you're going to talk about how expensive it is for fighter going all out, why not compare it with a gunner spamming Mayalee Fury or grenades to kill large bullet-resistant monsters?

[Neith]

Now, I can't be arsed quoting all of what you said SolomonGrundy, so here goes:

- I still maintain that Beast fF's do not have ATA issues. The only PA I see 0's on are the Axe ones, but they repay that with huge damage when they do connect. Outside of Axe, I don't see an ATA problem, until upto an area like Hive S2, where I have to pop Zodiarides, which is no big deal.

- It's not surprising you can't take down a Polavohra fast... they're melee resistant? Even with multiple parts, it's like attacking a non-melee resistant monster with one part, with a ton of HP. Of course it takes ages.

- You think fF sucks balls? Funny really, the only people who say that are people who have no real scope on how the class is meant to work. I've seen fF's trying to take down Mizura with axes. If you play like that, you need to try other things. Knuckles are accurate, so you use those against Mizura. Axe comes in handy against large monsters, which tend to have crap for EVP. Maybe when AoI rolls around (or the update with Just Attack/Counter, PP Regen, and increased stats), people who say fF sucks now will be choking on their words.

I can't be arsed arguing anymore, so here's a picture from the JP uploader. <3 fF
http://www.mithra.to/~psu/uploader/src/psu6489.jpg
Yes, 6000 damage. If you're still calling an fF poor after that, you're delusional.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: UrikoBB3 on 2007-09-19 07:14 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

OVER 6000!!!!1

It sounds like the game's being tweaked for Melee to be way more damaging than it is right now, Range to focus far more on SE, and I guess techs are being left as a middle ground?

[Neith]

I imagine that for 6k Damage, that's one hell of a high % Axe, but still, that's a lot more than we can already deal. So, it looks like melee classes are finally getting the love they needed. I need this update, now. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Hrith]

87/10 female cast Fortefighter:
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/anga_dugrega_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/bogga_robado_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/tornado_break_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/dus_daggas_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/rensan_senshou-ga_ff.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/senten_kanzan-ga_ff.png

87/10 female cast Fortegunner:
http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/burning_shot_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/barada_riga_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/boma_diga_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/plasma_prism_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/grav_hit_fg.png http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/yak_megiga_fg.png


Yeah, Fortefighter ATA is so low http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

@ panzer: weren't you and Hirth arguing over how 'meh' the ultimate knuckle PA's are? I do use knuckles all the time, and have already said that higher * weapons + zodiaride = few ATA issues. I still maintain Axes are poor weapons, due to accuracy limitations, and I have a suite of 9*'s now.

Handguns are bad. Jarba's have 24k Hp. 300 a shot isn't going to cut it. Heck, Polhavora's have 2 hit locations, are far less dangerous, and THEY take to long.

Speaking of, you mention taking 'regular' swipes at Pols to compare to Gunners way of dealing with them. I'm not sure who you deal with Pols with your gunner, but I just use a fire rifle, and set (them) on fire 4 times. in rooms with mutliple pols? I use Sturm to get a leg up. If I'm getting desperate/bored, I drop a virus trap.
Oh, and my point is: even with all that dancing and shooting, it's MUCH faster than a swinging with a saber, and only flipping the Pol it stands up. Try this on S2 sometime, solo.

on the subject of DFP: you point: "use EVP then" validates my argument. Don't you think it odd to rely on EVP with a job with such a low EVP modifier? If they meant fighting types to use EVP, then they would have given them high EVP modifiers, like rangers.

@uriko: not sure what you are using for weapons, or what the percents are. What's the bet that this axe is a 44/50%? And I'm no so silly as to atack mizura with anything but knuckles. PS2 has nerfed mizura, I hear, so that might not be the best example.

Also, we'll see how fF fare in AoI, can't say right now.


@ Hirth:
80/10 Human fortegunner ATA: 530
80/10 Beast fortefighter ATA: 230

you can say knuckles makes up this gap (+167 over Phantom rifle), but that's a poor comparison.

A better comparison is swords to crossbow. Swords wins by 53 ATA margin (and a sginificant ATP margin, I concede).

(530+156)*60: 411.6

(230+209)*75: 329.25

QED Beast ATA is low.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-19 10:01, SolomonGrundy wrote:
@ panzer: weren't you and Hirth arguing over how 'meh' the ultimate knuckle PA's are? I do use knuckles all the time, and have already said that higher * weapons + zodiaride = few ATA issues. I still maintain Axes are poor weapons, due to accuracy limitations, and I have a suite of 9*'s now.

Handguns are bad. Jarba's have 24k Hp. 300 a shot isn't going to cut it. Heck, Polhavora's have 2 hit locations, are far less dangerous, and THEY take to long.

Speaking of, you mention taking 'regular' swipes at Pols to compare to Gunners way of dealing with them. I'm not sure who you deal with Pols with your gunner, but I just use a fire rifle, and set (them) on fire 4 times. in rooms with mutliple pols? I use Sturm to get a leg up. If I'm getting desperate/bored, I drop a virus trap.
Oh, and my point is: even with all that dancing and shooting, it's MUCH faster than a swinging with a saber, and only flipping the Pol it stands up. Try this on S2 sometime, solo.

on the subject of DFP: you point: "use EVP then" validates my argument. Don't you think it odd to rely on EVP with a job with such a low EVP modifier? If they meant fighting types to use EVP, then they would have given them high EVP modifiers, like rangers.

Hrith and I were arguing which of danga or robado was worth learning, mostly because the two PA's are so damned close for use and performance.

I guess you're so bent about axes because they're a FF-specific (or just about) weapon type? You don't have to use them if they don't work. My cast rocks hard with them, I assume a Newman Ff would love 'em for the gap-closing weapon ATP as well. They're sort of a waste of beast Ff ATP anyway, aren't they? I'd think you would focus on high ATP% moves and/or major multi-hit attacks in order to get your additional base ATP out there as many times as possible.

You seem to be confused between something that takes a long time (handgunning a Jarba, tripping and stabbing a Pola to death without blowing through a ton of weapon batteries) and actual challenges like soloing multiple Gaozorans, Grinna Betes, or this crazy dream I had one night with this mission where the boss fight was Adanha and Magas at the same time.

PS: math check... 24000 HP / 300 HP/hit / 2 hits/sec = 40 seconds to kill a Jarba. That's exactly the same time it takes 4 Burn4 statuses to run their course. I don't have numbers for it off the top of my head but I bet it's really not that bad taking on a Pola with a decent % earth dagger or saber compared to letting DOT's do your work... those statuses can take a while to apply as well. What's technically a 40-second job is usually 60, sometimes far longer. I consider myself lucky to burn a large monster twice before killing it, then again that's usually with grenades or handgun since I can't use bow as a Fortegunner and won't just stand around letting stuff burn if I can be leveling Bogga Zubba as a Protranser.

Why do Fighters have crap EVP mods when it's a defensive stat they need? Probably because it's a class that favors Cast and Beast races... a job penalty on EVP doesn't matter much because they don't have much EVP for Ff modifiers to take away. You get it all back with change left over by putting a good Tenora shield on.
Clearly it works the other way around for Fo and Ft... sky-high EVP mod with crap HP & DFP are a huge boost to Newms, while making life really hard for Cast and Beast characters. Gunners, I dunno. Why would they get hit in the first place? lol



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-19 12:40 ]</font>

[Neith]

I only use 16-28% 8-9* weapons. For a PS2'er, nothing special. I don't have any over-the-top rare units (well, Tero / Guard, but nothing that helps my ATA, just a Perpa / Hit from the NPC shop). Of course I see some zero's, as a Beast you expect to see them more than other races, but the ATA isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be. Melee PA's tend to be just a little less accurate than regular melee attacks, so you don't really feel the hit much.

As I said, i use Zodiarides in really high level places to help, but I'd imagine a lot of people do that, or use Zodial anyway.

[panzer_unit]

I'm a cast and a zodiaride addict

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-19 10:01, SolomonGrundy wrote:
@ Hrith:
80/10 Human fortegunner ATA: 530
80/10 Beast fortefighter ATA: 230

you can say knuckles makes up this gap (+167 over Phantom rifle), but that's a poor comparison.

A better comparison is swords to crossbow. Swords wins by 53 ATA margin (and a sginificant ATP margin, I concede).

(530+156)*60: 411.6

(230+209)*75: 329.25

QED Beast ATA is low.It's Hrith.

I show you that Fortefighter has about the same ATA as Fortegunner, and you reply "beast have low ATA".
Okay?

I'm talking about a class not a race.
My post shows figures for the same character, but different classes.

I know beasts have shitty ATA, I'm a cast Fortefighter.

[SolomonGrundy]

You seem to be confused between something that takes a long time (handgunning a Jarba, tripping and stabbing a Pola to death without blowing through a ton of weapon batteries) and actual challenges like soloing multiple Gaozorans, Grinna Betes, or this crazy dream I had one night with this mission where the boss fight was Adanha and Magas at the same time.

Been a while since I tried Soloing Hive missions with a fortefighter. Grinning Bete's at least have 3 hit locations, so certain PAs can take advantage.



PS: math check... 24000 HP / 300 HP/hit / 2 hits/sec = 40 seconds to kill a Jarba. That's exactly the same time it takes 4 Burn4 statuses to run their course. I don't have numbers for it off the top of my head but I bet it's really not that bad taking on a Pola with a decent % earth dagger or saber compared to letting DOT's do your work...

this is a decent point. I will go try it. For Pols, though, I though how the math works intimately, and it's jsut too huge a drain on PP to take more than or 2 pols down in a mission. And in missions like sleeping warriors you get 5+


Why do Fighters have crap EVP mods when it's a defensive stat they need? Probably because it's a class that favors Cast and Beast races... a job penalty on EVP doesn't matter much because they don't have much EVP for Ff modifiers to take away. You get it all back with change left over by putting a good Tenora shield on.

not a very good point. And it's incorrect, numerically.
Fortegunner EVP is about triple fFs(+200),
Gigush Line vs Rabol Gant is 194 vs 245, or about 50 more.

@Hrith..I didn't spell it right? but point taken. However, if you compare human fF to human fG the gap only closes by 26.25, leaving a 50+ ATA gap. Forgetting that for a second, when a gunner misses, it's not as big a deal. there is distance between them and the enemy, so they regroup, and shoot again. Fighters, on the other hand, are often using PAs to flinch, or juggle, and a miss can mean taking a swwat in the face from a sworded go-varha.

big difference.

[Hrith]

You missed my point a bit.

If Fortefighters and Fortegunners have roughly the same ATA, how are Fighgunners better?

Fighgunner does not have much better ATA than Fortefighter.

FF has ATP, FI has ranged weaponry and traps, none is better =/

[Neith]

On 2007-09-19 14:38, Hrith wrote:
FF has ATP, FI has ranged weaponry and traps, none is better =/



Agreeing with Kef? Madness! Realistically, anyone should be able to tell at first glance that fF and FG are built for totally different roles, just by looking a the two classes' stats and weapon selections.

[SolomonGrundy]

the ATP gap between fF and FiGs is not large.

The DFP gap, well, DFP does not work anyway...

now that S ranks are released there is a difference in weapons...but relly S ranks are rare enough that this should not enter into the discussion.

Traps, and twins/mechs allow Figunner to easily traverse areas which stop a fortefighter cold, or at least slow one down to the point of irritation.

[Hrith]

You are greatly underestimating Fortefighter.

Several Fortefighters can beat Demons Above S2 (most melee-unfriendly mission on PSU) faster than a Fighgunner will ever be able to.

I use both classes, and I find the difference in ATP worth more than the use of better guns most of the time.

[Neith]

My ATP is around 760ish as a Fighgunner, and 930 as a Fortefighter. That's a large enough difference.

*goes back to looking at 6000 damage Anga Redda*

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-09-19 16:37, UrikoBB3 wrote:
My ATP is around 760ish as a Fighgunner, and 930 as a Fortefighter. That's a large enough difference.

*goes back to looking at 6000 damage Anga Redda*



that's funn because it's 780 as a FiG and 887 as a fF for me, and as a beast, that's the largest the gap can ever be. SO it seem you are not rank 10 in Fig.

To Hrith. I don't know what FF's you are playing with, but the only slow areas of Demons above are the 3 spawn tengoh areas, and FiG+Burn trap, + twin hangun or mechs will leave fFs behind, in a hurry

Demons above is not the most fF unfriendly mission. That distinction belongs to desert goliath

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-19 14:15, SolomonGrundy wrote:
not a very good point. And it's incorrect, numerically.
Fortegunner EVP is about triple fFs(+200),
Gigush Line vs Rabol Gant is 194 vs 245, or about 50 more.


Wrong comparison, I'm talking racially. A Newman fortefighter is not going to steal the show on defense from a Beast or Cast, because their intrinsic EVP advantage gets nerfed to crap and then pumped back up to decent levels (pretty much same for everyone) by high-end armor. They've got a few more points but it's as good as gone if their DFP isn't high enough to wear a max-rank line shield.

Besides, fortegunners have enough DFP to wear the same crap as Fortefighters at the high end. Casts at least, other races too at higher levels than 80/10. Of course gunners are targets for techs and other non-evadable stuff pretty frequently.

[SolomonGrundy]

panzer (And I am not trying to be a smart ass): I'm not sure what your point is.

Let me restate mine, and you can pick it apart again.

Fortefighters have high DFP, and low(est) EVP. Therefore I think the intent is for fF to make use of thier DFP. Sadly, DFP, as it stands now, does not work.

[Hrith]

That last part is oh-so-true, Solomon, and it makes me sad, being a female cast Fortefighter (highest DFP in the game).

But Uriko's figures are right. He is a beast, he gets a racial bonus to the Fortefighter job.

You cannot say the ATP difference between those two classes is less significant than the ATA or EVP differences. The ATA difference is totally not significant (for the same race/sex), the EVP difference is noticeable, but Fortefighter is not made for EVP, so that's not really a point.

Fortefighter has noticeably more ATP, and gets S grade in the weapon types with the highest ATP values (spears, swords, axes).

Really, using both, and loving boths classes, I cannot objectively say for one second that Fighgunner DPS is on par with Fortefighter DPS. But Fighgunner versatility is definitely an asset to be reckoned with.

Lastly, the change to how elemental % works that we will be getting soon (hopefully >_>) affects low-ATP weapons more, so Fighgunner will suffer more from it, being a specialist in sabers, daggers, twin sabers, twin daggers and double sabers.

[Neith]

On 2007-09-20 03:08, Hrith wrote:
But Uriko's figures are right. He is a beast, he gets a racial bonus to the Fortefighter job.

Being honest, I'm not Figh 10 yet (think I'm Figh 8 or so), which yes, will give Figh more of a boost. It's still going to be a good deal behind fF though.

Unfortunately, with all the stat rebalancing on JP PSU, Amesani can't be used to check a Beast F's FG10 stats. I could get them from somewhere, but there'll still be a noticeable difference, especially when the fF's increased ATP is then applied to high ATP weapons at S-Rank, such as Axes, Spears and Swords.

The damage difference between the two classes is apparent, and the ATA difference between them and of the same race isn't a massively degrading one for fF.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, Beasts have quite a big difference between FF and FI, but if you're Human and Newman, who get bonus stats as FI, the difference is laughable. My human has both jobs maxed out and the difference is like 800 or so on FF and 750 or so on FI. So for Human and Newmans, its a matter of either guns, traps, and EVP or PP usage.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-20 00:57, SolomonGrundy wrote:
panzer (And I am not trying to be a smart ass): I'm not sure what your point is.

Let me restate mine, and you can pick it apart again.

Fortefighters have high DFP, and low(est) EVP. Therefore I think the intent is for fF to make use of thier DFP. Sadly, DFP, as it stands now, does not work.


My point is that EVP is a defense stat that actually works, even for Fortefighters. You get your Rabol Rad / Gant / Dadan / Asted going, maybe eat some zodiaride against more-accurate enemies, and you will start blocking hits with decent frequency... like 20% maybe? That's a boost on par with the element level on an average home-made shield.

All defense points are good for IMO is wearing expensive shields to even out your EVP disadvantage. It's more obvious from checking stats on some of the lower-DFP classes, where scaled-down numbers mean that Casts have a significant advantage for equipping shields... like 9* tenora vs 8* tenora or 9* GRM on a beast, and worse for humans and newms. It does a lot in terms of closing the gap for total evade.

In the case of the Fortefighter class, the stat modifiers don't mean that DFP is the defense stat you're looking for, it means that EVERYONE is stuck in the same situation. Even newmans Ff's have crap EVP, and even newmans have enough DFP to wear high-rank fighter (tenora) armor.

[SolomonGrundy]

to Hrith: perhaps you are right regarding damage dealt once you look at S ranks. I don't have any, and really, they have only recently been available.



My beef with fF was perfectly reflected in a run I did last night with a fT, and a Figunner.

We did the mission "Duel in the Relics" on S2.

The regular go-varha were not terrible difficult for anyone.
The sworded go-varha's were dangerous for everyone

The horse thingy: easiest for the techer. Melee PAs don't work on it, and it has huge DFP, coupled with 1/2 damage from both ranged and tech.

The boss: ok, every other class has a safe/ distance way of dealing with ragnus EXCEPT the fF. And the dragon hits so hard that the extra HP is meaningless. I got 1 hit killed aat least 3 times from full HP.

Techers can use techs at a distance. PTs and GTs can use Bows, Figunners and Fortegunners can use twin handguns for good damage to the weaker head.

It's only the stupid Fortefighter who is stuck using his level 10 skill pistol (suck), or try and deal damage by attacking the necks. Since everyone else is at a safe distance you are on your own for healing, and god forbid he gets off 2 attacks.

And there it is: whenever there is an enemy that presents a tactical problem, the fF has no way to deal with it, and further, his defenses: 'high hp, high dfp' don't really mean anything.

[panzer_unit]

You were having as much trouble as everyone else with Sword Go-Vahra?
Those are the guys where I'm like "boy I'm glad to be a good melee fighter" ... what are you attacking them with?

[Hrith]

Fortefighter is actually pretty good for fighting De Ragnus, I guess you need more practice.

[Sophia]

De ragnus is super easy as a fortefighter x_x
Its like, impossible to get hit.

[Gen2000]

Even for FiGs, you'll do waaaaaaay more damage attacking Ragnus necks+heads with its multiple hit points with melee attacks then pecking away with Twins for a majority of the fight, just learn to BACK OFF when he does his stomp but this seems to be something a lot of melee players seem to be having trouble as I noticed from random DiR runs.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gen2000 on 2007-09-20 13:40 ]</font>

[Neith]

All you have to do as a fF is break out a PA like Daggas under Ragnus' neck. He has so many targetable points that you nearly always get an entire combo of hits on him.

As long as you have fairly quick reactions and move when he walks around, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Don't underestimate the damage his stamping attack can do either, that hurts even on a fF.

At the end of the day, all Ragnus is is a beefed-up version of Ragan with a couple more party tricks. I personally find Zoalgoug a bit more annoying, because of the whole 'can't go under his neck' thing.

[SolomonGrundy]

@ panzer: I was using rising strike.

The techer was using nos/dam and regular diga, and plenty of resta while keeping his distance. and looking for safe spots.

The Figunner was using rising crush.




@hrith: Oh, I am rusty, I admit it. but the practical abilities of the other jobs were really made apparent in that fight. The fFs HAVE to close the gap, and risk the stomp, and other de ragnus moves. Other jobs don't.

and in that battle it's not so much about being able to inflict the most damage per second, but really, being able to inflict meaningful damage, and move, without being 1 hit killed, or going through all your mates.