my PA's, looking for advice

[panzer_unit]

So here they are, I'm looking to drop/add some in order to boost my performance a bit... keeping in mind longer-term things like the SE buff, AOI PA stats, being able to send PA's to disk in AOI. Mostly I'm thinking out loud. If anyone's got bright ideas share tho.

Jagdpanzer - Protranser / Fortefighter / Fortegunner
* class choices... in AOI I definitely see PT being my main, Fortefighter being the most commonly used class alternative for the huge boost to melee damage output. Fortegunner, especially going to AOI... it's basically a less diverse PT with bullet-save (and killer shot)

Knuckles - Danga 30, Zubba 28
- Favorite weapon class, along with swords.
Sword - Tornado 30, Spinning 30
- I love swords, not a fan of Spinning Break however, plan on replacing it with gravity in AOI but you never know exactly how it'll work out.
Twin Claw - Renzan 23, Bukuu 13
- Vahra Claw kicks a LOT of ass. These are great moves for piling damage on single targets and large groups of small creatures respectively.
Axe - Durega 27, Redda 30
- THIS IS DUREGAAAAAAAAAAA! I got Redda basically so I can use my axes in a team friendly manner. It just happens to level like ass-on-fire.
Saber - Rising 28, Gravity 16
- I use Gravity Strike for the 3x4 hit combo move against large targets.
Claw - Shousen Totsuzan-ga whatever 13
- I don't care a lot for this weapon or either of the PA's, Shousen was the one I thought I'd like best.

Handgun - Light ~15... Fire, Ice, Lightning, Earth, Dark 21+
- Probably my main ranged weapon for frequency of use overall.
Shotgun - Dark 18... Fire, Ice, Lightning, Earth, Light 21+, Maga 11+
- all-day gun for Fortegunner, full element coverage for good damage output
Grenade - Fire 30, Dark 25, Earth 25
- large-target crowd control and DOT
Bow - all elements 21+
- PT boss killer, throws max-level DOTs around nicely as well
Rifle - Killer 18
- cashing in on robot missions, grinding low-rank yohmei rifles was a good diversion from my complete lack of valuable finds
Laser - Ice 25, Mayalee ~11
- ranged support weapon for both Fg and PT

Stuff I'm thinking about getting recently:
* Buten Suren-zan... nice movement PA with 2x4 hits + wipeout on the first part, followed by 3x4 hit finisher. This would be a major asset for both Forte classes. On the con side, unusable by Protranser.

* More prisms?... especially with AOI laser changes. As a short-term fix I should buy and level Grav. It's a high-damage bullet, the effect procs often and comes in handy against some small monsters, plus it won't overwrite or block any important higher-level statuses. Navals are the only earth creatures (currently) I'd really consider using a regular laser bullet against anyway.

* Bogga Robado for knuckle? Zubba does about the same when it comes to damaging 2 targets, but Robado has knockback.
* Rensan whatever for twin claw? Another move good for piling damage on 2 targets.
* Senten whatever for single claw? 2x2, 3x1 seems pretty generic. I got Shousen because it was unique, but it doesn't work for me in practice.
* Get a new class of weapon? Twin Dagger... Twin Saber... I don't think I've got PA space for another gun, twin daggers might be interesting since they offer significantly more hits/move than most weapons. Is there something I'm really missing and don't even know about?
* Save space for unreleased PA's? I can see Barada Chamga coming in ridiculously handy... Phantom Prism... Gravity Break, Spinning Strike, Anga Jaborga.

Stuff I don't really like but don't hate enough to have dropped already:
Spinning Break - great reach and movement for chasing after targets, but hard to get full hits out of the combo with it having such a narrow area and needing constant re-adjustment if you get any motion as you go along. [EDIT: PSUpedia says this hits 3 targets throughout the combo now? that would be something worth talking about]

Boma Diga - I got this for the old Desert Goliath mission with dozens of Grinna Betes to fight. Now there aren't enough of 'em in that mission to justify having a bullet basically just for that, and the SE buff coming up might let my dark grenades start throwing DOT's around against those things like I hoped they would in the first place.

Mayalee Prism - it does really knock the crap out of worms, however.

Single claw basic PA - Single claw is Fortefighter's only one-handed S-rank... 8* shop claws are like 34% dark and pick up a set bonus. Problem is, what's it really good for? Tengohgs in Agata Relics. Most creatures that justify knowing single-target PA's do so because they run around too much to catch with any sort of AOE attack, but this move has no reach or movement initially.

So many elements for Bow - I don't use bows a lot as PT, and I'm not a PT all the time... but when I do touch these things it's all the elements pretty evenly. Light, Earth, Lightning, and Ice are all important for boss damage, Fire and Dark for large monster DOT's. Technically I could get away with burns from grenade or handgun and Virus traps but having a good weapon for it is much more convenient.

EDIT: Just doing the easy thing would be something like...
Shousen Totsuzan-ga -> Buten Suren-zan
- it's only a half-leveled melee PA, easily replaced if this move turns out to be a mistake
Mayalee Prism -> Grav Prism
- I've got lots of ways to deal with worms
Boma Diga -> something new
- can't see myself wanting earth grenades back, really. Grenades rip through PP fast even on Fortegunner and are usually shot at bullet-resistant targets to make PP conservation even worse. If they can at least score a DOT on the way thats a big win for damage done IMO.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-24 13:36 ]</font>

[Hrith]

Knuckles:
Well you know I will say Bogga Robado is the best of the three.
Bogga Zubba will get a major boost in ATP in the adjustment update.
Bogga Danga will get a nice boost, too, but for now it just sucks (because of that horrid third part that never hits more than 2/12 or 3/12).

Swords:
Tornado is the best of the 360 degrees skills.
Spinning Break is rather useless if you have Dus Daggas.
Both get a nice ATP boost in that adjustment update.

Keep PA room to try out Gravity Break, of course =P

Twin claws:
Bukuu Rensen-ga is a solid PA because it hits three targets throughout, and all hits stun.
Renzan Seidan-ga has decent DPS, but awful range and radius, so you will get 50% of its potential most of the time = worst of the three.
Rensan Senshou-ga is powerful, but it has no stun and has several vulnerability frames, very good on monsters that do not interrupt you because it has no knockback move.

Remember Vahra Claw is a Kubara article, and suffers from the 10% ATP reduction when using skills.

Axes:
Both PAs are very good.
Anga Redda being a damage PA with lower DPS than Dus Daggas, I find myself using Anga Dugrega most of the time.
Anga Dugrega also gets a HUEG boost in AoI.

Anga Jabroga sounds totally worth it, especially with Just Attack.

Single sabers:
I'm disappointed in Gravity Strike, waiting on Spinning Strike.

Single claws:
I like claws because they're the only one-handed S grade weapons Fortefighters get. We should get single sabers in AoI, though.
Shousen Totsuzan-ga is decent for now, but it will be severely nerfed soon.
Senten Kanzan-ga is really good, but since you multi-class with FG and PT (neither can use claws) and FF will get S grade sabers in AoI, you may as well discard that weapon type =/

Single handguns:
Mayalee Hit is nice on Fortegunner (sucks on any other class).
It may become useful on PT come AoI, though.
In the AoI Beta, Mayalee Hit was too good, I hope it retains some of that awesomeness in the final product ;o


Shotguns:
Any element but fire is good on that weapon type.
Why not fire? Because it's the only instance where the difference between SE2 and SE3 matters enough to render SE2 useless.
With the STA nerf monsters will go through, Shotguns may become broken.

Barada Maga is a waste of a PA slot.

Grenade launchers:
Earth and ice are the best ones.
I'm not sure why you have the dark one, Kog Nadd? o_O
Keep Boma Diga, really.
Fire does not sound too useful, either, enlighten me.

Bows:
Are they that good to have on PT?
I would not use bows at all on PT >_>

Rifles:
Killer Shot sure is nice to have, but so are Burning Shot and Dark Shot.
What do you use on flying bosses?

Laser cannons:
Thunder is undeniably the best laser PA.
Ice has got to be good if you play Parum a lot, I suppose.
With Lv2 SE and flinch to be added to those weapons, Mayalee Prism will become even more useless that it already is.
Also, if all regular bullets get Lv2 SE and flinch, Phantasm Prism is nothing special.


I would not bother getting twin daggers at all, no class you have can use them at S grade, and their PAs, however good, can be replaced by twin sabers, knuckles, spears, swords, etc.

Bear in mind PA space will cease to be an issue come AoI.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-25 04:34 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Knuckles:

I’d agree that Danga is still probably the most useless of the 3, even after the 20% buff, because the most powerful move is pretty hard to aim. Robado gets boosted to 220%. Bogga Zubba is looking really good with 260% ATP and 90% ATA though.

Swords:

Spinning Break gets boosted to over 200% ATP on the first move, so it would surprise me if it wasn’t better than Dus Daggas now. Tornado Break gets boosted to 170% and hits 4 targets on each move. Depending on how much the second and third moves were boosted, I could see it actually competing or surpassing the 230% Dus Robado.

Twin Claw:

Bukuu is arguably the strongest of the 3 PAs right now, but it’s also the only one that doesn’t get increased to over 200% ATP in the AoI update.

Axes:

Pretty much what Hrith said.

Single Saber:

Well, I’m biased to the fact that Gravity Strike is my favorite skill, but in terms of damage/time, the 170% to 12 targets it gets right now in the second move will kill Spinning Strike under the condition that you can get 3 targets within its range. Also it gets a 15% boost. Rising Strike is also getting one of the 200+% boosts, so even it will beat Spinning if there are 2 targets in its range.

Single Claw:

Though the ATP mod of the first move of Shousen does decrease, it gains the ability to hit 2 targets. Additionally, I’ve heard the second move has about the same ATP as it did before, so it’s actually a huge buff. Also the other claw PA gets a 200+% ATP boost and I’m pretty sure the second move gets an ATA buff as well as a 1.5x ATP buff.

Single Dagger:

Buten is good, but not really necessary for fF and unusable by PT. I’d say get it after you can store PAs.

Handguns:

With the ATP buff and the element nerf, I could see the Penetrations being a lot more useful. Also the HP drain could be useful since none of the 3 classes you chose use techs. However, you could always just use –mates. Never been big on handguns though, but I don’t play any of the classes that have to use them. I’d suggest cutting PAs from this section though, as opposite element ranged damage isn’t THAT important to an fF…

Shotguns:

Keep them all for the same reason you said.

Grenades:

Fire and Dark are probably all you need. With the enemy STA nerf, you’ll be able to infect large mobs with it, making Dark anti-large robot. You might also want to consider Duranga, as that gets 350% ATP. Just don’t use it without a Cast fT, GT, or non-Newman WT/AT. Don’t forget the PP cost is getting cut in half soon.

Bow:

They get a big ATP buff, but I think this was more to counter the element nerf/base ATP buff from making them completely useless, even against high DFP mobs. But, yeah, I can’t see why you’d want max SE on anything besides burn and the stun shot. Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if PT will do more damage with handguns on bosses, but then there’s the range vs. higher damage/time trade off. It also wouldn’t surprise me if a PT with the first ult bow PA could kill its damage/time with the other bow PAs between the higher ATA and element nerf; it could probably beat GT damage with that.

Rifle:

Get Burning Shot.

Laser:

Mayalee is good, obviously. All lasers are getting buffed to around 190% ATP, so Phantasm is only good for the extra ATA. I still don’t see lasers surpassing shotguns/crossbows/cards/mechs for general use though. Don’t forget the PP cost is getting cut in half soon.



Personally, I’d drop a few skills, keeping the hard to level ones/ones you really like, and replace them with bullets/hard to level skills. That way it wouldn’t consume much time to get the skills to usable levels and you’d be done with the hard part. (You can get the average skill to 21+ in a day without borderline obsessing over the game, while bullets take at least twice as long.)

That’s my plan. Add back card bullets as soon as AoI hits, get all the melee stuff I want right now, and add Megistar for solo.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-25 07:49 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Knuckles:
I use Danga when getting hits on the final move isn't a problem, and Zubba (or just spam the first regular attack) the rest of the time. I don't feel like I need Robado, but you never know for the future. Technically, Robado is the only good knuckle move against Kamatoze. Knockback only to knock them over, and they're 2-target creatures so Danga loses 1/3 of its power-move.

Twin Claws:
Repeating the first move of Renzan kills single targets faster and cheaper than most PA's. I use the rest if I need to pull out some crowd control. I had been thinking of getting Rensan, but from the sounds of it I'd only pull the move out against weak creatures. I think Bukuu's okay for groups of ... anything ... so that's covered already.

Claw:
I tossed Shousen last night for Buten. What kills it for me is the movement and range, not anything to do with damage, so future changes won't really affect me.

Saber:
I don't like Gravity Strike much either, it's hard to catch multiple moving targets for full hits... but the enormous hit count comes in REALLY handy sometimes. Protranser can't use Buten which is the same move only cheaper, stronger, and better http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif At least it's not as bad as Spinning Break vs Dus Daggas.
EDIT: good to know I could potentially skip Spinning Break. I might still get it as a Bil killer for Fortegunner.

Shotguns:
I'm keeping fire so I can get max raw damage against every element. You're quite right that the status is basically useless. I find maga pretty handy, it helps PT a lot on accuracy and Fg on evasion.

Lasers:
I went for Ice (and Light, overwritten since) rather than Shock... those effects will keep targets bunched up so you can shoot them more, in addition to the defensive properties. Shock procs better, but you lose a good shot setup just as quickly as if you weren't using an effect.
I grabbed Earth last night for the extra 5% damage and not screwing over other gunners SE. Silence SE might even be useful after it's buffed up, since caster enemies love to bunch up at range for easy laser bait.

Grenades:
I find Boma Banga pretty effective. I can deal one or two 20% burns against most things you'd use a grenade on, without taking a break from target suppression. Boma Megiga is supposed to be the same deal against large robots but SE3 infect isn't strong enough (yet, hopefully the SE buff fixes that)... still it gets element bonus on Stateria (I use fire on Koggs) and gives me something to shoot at De Ragan without taking an element penalty. The DOT's useful at least for dealing with worms right now.

Rifles and Bows:
I shoot proper-element handgun shots at bosses as a Fortegunner, same as I do for Fortefighter. It's a little extra running around, but I'm good at it, and it would take a pile of rifle skills and ages of leveling to do better.
If there was some boss hard enough to give me real trouble I'd tackle it as a PT and use bows. In missions, I'll use bows for their range advantage mostly... or if I'm doing a lot of shooting, in order to save handgun PP for when it counts in proper gun-and-melee combat.

EDIT: Handguns
These are my only one-handed firearm, so I've got to think about element damage for Fortegunner and Protranser. Having all the elements handy for Fortefighter does a bit more damage come boss-fight time, otherwise I'll pick a handy SE (shock or virus) and hope for the best. The SE buff and level 20 bullet cap for Ff might make having the full set REALLY handy.
I'm also looking forward to the penetration bullet. Mayalee hit... I dunno, you have to do a lot of shooting to heal significantly. In the meanwhile you're not handing out shock or throwing mobs around with a saber. To me that's about the same as saying that I'll be taking damage.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-25 08:02 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Double post! Ultimate PA's come out on Friday. Good thing I started thinking about this.

So far:
Shousen -> Bootin'
Boma Diga -> Grav Prism

For sure on Friday:
Spinning Break -> Gravity Break (single-target mobs can prepare to die)
Mayalee Prism -> Anga Jaborga (INTERRUPT ME WITH A TAIL WHACK? I DONT THINK SO DRUA GOHRA)

Under heavy consideration:
Grav Prism -> Phantasm Prism
Frozen Prism -> Boma Duranga

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-25 08:53 ]</font>

[biggabertha]

I don't want to hi-jack your topic with my PAs but I'm purely Protranser so I don't have issues with the different weapons to use. However, since I have all elements for handgun, longbow and shotgun that rather bites into my PA limit and I'm also, royally buggered come this Friday in terms of getting Gravity Strike and Anga Jabroga.

Being such a sword fan though, I don't want to toss out Spinning Break out at all and from what I remember, I didn't like how long it took to level either.

My advice is to get rid of PAs that you don't use anymore but are easy to level. Longbows and spear PAs come to mind but they're actually useful... Also, from my experience, having Raisei-Sou (Lightning I hope) and Jisei-Sou is kind of redundant save for a few bosses but you have grenades or a handgun to cover for them against bosses or your other longbow bullets.

Getting Anga Jabroga AND Gravity break on the first day?! You have 174 PA fragments handy?! o.O;;;;

[Kion]

Rather than thinking about which PA's you should replace, I'd start with the fundamental PA's that you should have and then compare it to what you do have and then make the necessary adjustments.

[panzer_unit]

Heck yeah, I've got stacks of PA fragments. Really I haven't cared for any of the ultimate PA's to come along so far though I've gotten a couple. This set are the more appealing ones for me.

Gravity Break and Anga Jaborga are ultimate PA's the way most aren't... they push the edge of what you can do rather than providing a middle of the road two-by-whatever multi-hit combo.

I'm thinking of tossing Gravity Strike for Spinning as well now. Spinning is cheap and powerful against single targets, while Gravity takes a pretty elaborate setup to be worthwhile. I just picked up another and more usable 3x4-hit move on Buten anyway.

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-25 09:44, biggabertha wrote:
Getting Anga Jabroga AND Gravity break on the first day?! You have 174 PA fragments handy?! o.O;;;;520 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

Where are your rifle bullets?!

ok, I'd keep at least some of the bow arts. Specifically virus, or ice bow. I can't think of a better way to deal with shielded enemies than bow as a PT/fG. What do you use vs dark falkis as a fortegunner? How about onma? How about dimma? All handgun?

I'd drop virus grenades. You are going to brin kog nad with fire, and then switch to a juggling PA, and vs Strateria you have traps, spinning break (if you decide to keep it).

You mentioned dropping earth grenades to. I used these to wonderful effect to end Zolagoug fights quickly, and to both silence and knock over olgohmons. If you have other solutions then yes, drop this grenade too.

I'd drop redda. Durenga is better, and there are other weapons that dish equivalent damage.

I'd drop fire shotgun. What enemies are you using this on?

I'd drop the single claw. That is just a personal preference. I think single claws look silly. Also, they are fF specific, so it makes sense to free up room. Also they look stupid in one hand (as opposed to twin claws which look suh-weet)


By the way, I highly recommend Buten Suren-zan. I use this in conjuntion with crossbow - you would use pistol. It's how I take on ageetah/bardia/naval hordes to conserve PP.

[panzer_unit]

There aren't any bosses that Handguns don't have enough range for. I dunno how much more damage I might be doing with a good Phantom combo and high-level rifle bullets, but Fortegunner lv21+ handgun attacks do pretty well compared to boss damage I do as a Protranser with bow.

I debated between dropping Earth and Dark grenades, and went in favor of keeping dark now that it's likely that the DOT will work against large monsters. Between Fire and Dark I can at least be dealing non-elemental damage + DOT versus everything. PP efficiency like that is important for soloing even as a Fortegunner. I'm considering Boma Duranga, the problem is that while it does damage virtually for free PP-wise the attack really chews through healing. Like a dimate every shot or two.

Fire shotgun... I pull it out as a gunner against Lapucha, Jishgara, Ageeta hordes, Kamatoze while waiting on grenade DOTs to cool off (double-counting hits for some serious damage)

Dropping Redda, tempting. It's not what I normally use an axe for. I'm going for "no" though because it lets me use my axe for mashing up regular little monsters if I need to... Redda's the only non-disruptive axe skill. Since it starts off stronger (and a little slower) than Durega, it'll do more damage or save a bunch of PP vs Durega if I'm fighting something that's likely to interrupt me too.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-25 12:46 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I favor rifles vs most bosses for the range. Specifically magga, dimma, and falkis. But if you are satisfied, then you are! (sorry of that last does not make a lot of sense)

ok, you are keeping virus grenades. You can always dump them later if the SE nerf does not allow SE3 virus to affect some large enemies.


Fire shotgun... I pull it out as a gunner against Lapucha, Jishgara, Ageeta hordes, Kamatoze while waiting on grenade DOTs to cool off (double-counting hits for some serious damage)

But now that you have Buten (single dagger), Lapucha, and Ageeta are taken care of. Kamatoze is fire grenade heaven - sure only half damage, but SE3 fire, knock over, and hits all the areas on kamatoze).

So basically, you have it for Jisharga - and not that this isn't great, but I would use lightning shotgun. I'd rather have them not hitting me, than doing extra damage.


DUMP FIRE SHOTGUN LIKE A WAYWARD GF!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-09-25 13:17 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

You've got good points about fire shotgun, but no. Shotguns are my primary damage weapon as a Fortegunner... I'm not tossing out any elements just on principle. That's like you going and selling all your fire melee weapons except axe.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-09-25 13:49, panzer_unit wrote:
You've got good points about fire shotgun, but no. Shotguns are my primary damage weapon as a Fortegunner... I'm not tossing out any elements just on principle. That's like you going and selling all your fire melee weapons except axe.



Worse in a way, because it's 1 PA per melee weapon. As long as you realise that tis PA is a total personal preference choice...and I'm fine with that

[panzer_unit]

Normally I hate these threads when people demand advice and then ignore it. Just to show I'm actually being a good sport, I'd like to point out people's good ideas...

dump single Claw - I was holding on because its a fortefighter S-rank weapon class, but the PA's aren't worth the space since its Ff-use only.
dump easily replacable skills - Mayalee Prism and Gravity Strike are low-level still and next on the list to toss, grenades level up quite quickly if I ever want Diga back
no twin daggers or other new weapon classes