Do debuff bullets make debuff techs poibtless?

[Jife_Jifremok]

As a fortegunner who has Barada Maga (zodeel effect), Twin Mayalee (zalure effect), and gonna get that jellen crossbow bullet, I think debuffing was kinda taken away from the techers. But a techer that debuffs lets me use stronger bullets for damage...but if I debuff, te]hers have more freedom to do their damage. Plus, techers have that wide-area debuff effect so they can debuff faster. What do yall think on this?

[panzer_unit]

Only GT's and Cast techers ever debuff. I don't think there's a debate here... if you want to see down arrows, put them there yourself.

[EJ]

Hey hey hey, I debuff believe it or not. :3

But what are the lvl of the debuff from the guns, if they are weaker than the techers than the techers are still better?

[Jife_Jifremok]

I've been told that level 21+ bullets have level 3 debuffs. Twin Mayalee's info window says Zalure level 3. Barada Maga level 21 says zodeel level 2, but I am skeptical on that and think it's actually level 3 with ST being too lazy to actually let us know. Plus, why make the maximum debuff levels uneven?

[Dhylec]

I haven't used debuff bullets, but from what I've seen, there should be a factor of hitting & attaching the effect. When using a tech, it's guaranteed if the enemies are in range & susceptible to the debuff.

So it's number of afftected targets vs chance of success. The bullet PA is an addition or at most a variation, but can't be the replacement for techs.

[SolomonGrundy]

if jellen made a difference, more people would do it. Not to be a a PSO whiner, but level 20 jellen could cause common enemies to hit for zero.

zalure made it possible to hit those enemies from caves with the uber high DFP (pan arms?) for damage.

[MSAksion]

I think the bullets are TECHNICALLY better.

For a ForteTecher to wade into the center of a Vanda to cast Jellen, Zalure, and Zodeel in rapid succession is F'in insanity. With barely over 1000+ HP and Def that doesn't even reach 100 points who wouldn't blame a full Techer for not wading into certain death to perform debuffing.

Where as anyone with twin pack pistols can sit back and launch level 21+ DEF Down Zalure from a safe distance then continue their blasting with other guns.

Sure you can only SHOOT one at a time as opposed to a techer Encircling up to 6 at a time...

...but enemies scatter, run, and get blown away so a techer is wasting even MORE time chasing one-sies two-sies debuffing three times instead of casting more DIGA!

[Katy]

I still use debuffs occasioanlly but I deleted Zalure since so many Fighgunners were spamming Twin Melee but until other debuffs get spammed regularly I'll keep using Jellen and Zodeel.

Don't forget that if a GH454 is around then I don't even bother with debuffs.

[EJ]

A FT doesn't have to be in the center of all the enemies to effect all since a 21+ debuff is a large AoE so you just need to be on the side and cast it plus with either me/har quick casting time is cut in half.

I think the bullets are not all lv3 is to make it somewhat balance that gunners dont have a advantage like they did on PSO even though they still do here. ;3

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-26 10:30, Dhylec wrote:
I haven't used debuff bullets, but from what I've seen, there should be a factor of hitting & attaching the effect. When using a tech, it's guaranteed if the enemies are in range & susceptible to the debuff.

So it's number of afftected targets vs chance of success. The bullet PA is an addition or at most a variation, but can't be the replacement for techs.


Having used both (a bit... b. maga for bullets, debuff techs) the bullets stick about as readily as the Techs do... e.g. if three shots doesn't do it the creature's almost certainly immune to the effect. It's extremely handy just to get that one-shot stats before really starting to fight.

With debuffs on various bullets, every class except Fortefighter (well-known support sponges) can debuff to help themselves out. 'transers have Barada Maga for ATA/EVP, fighgunners can do ATP/DFP, fortegunner and guntecher can do them all (best) with bullets, wartecher and fortetecher can use debuff techs.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-26 11:04 ]</font>

[Kion]

it's jsut an extra ability for fortegunners to have. think of it as another status ailment.

[drizzle]

Debuffs were always pointless.

[Sexy_Raine]

I would to say yes Jife. I think bullets took the fun out of using J/Z/ZD. They are pretty much pointless now the way i see it. If they was force exclusive, then i would say otherwise.

with the new PA's coming in, I'm going to trash zoldeel for regrants, since I feel it's not worth having anymore, since rangers can do it better.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-09-26 11:35 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

With debuffs on various bullets, every class except Fortefighter (well-known support sponges) can debuff to help themselves out.

more proff fFs are teh suck.

;-p

[Hrith]

Debuff bullets are a waste of time.

FT should debuff strong monsters, though.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-09-26 12:44, Hrith wrote:
Debuff bullets are a waste of time.

... yeah, just like 'rides and mates. That stuff's a force's job! If you don't have one of those guys around you deserve to go without.

AMIRITE OR WUT?!!?

[OldCoot]

I think that the bullets are a better choice. (I am coming from a fT view). It gets old to run up into a crowd of things you want to stay away from, just to debuff them. I would rather use a bullet myself.

[Pillan]

Seeing as the bullets with a spread range max at stat down level 2, I'd say Zodeel and Jellen have a clear advantage over their bullet versions. Then the twin handgun/card's version of Zalure has the disadvantage of not hitting all the targets in 1 attack, so it will always be easier for an fT or GT to cast Zalure once than for the fG/FG/GT/AF using the twin handgun/card to hit everything in the room before switching back to a stronger weapon.

Of course, if the twin handgun bullets grow to DFP down 4 at 31, those will be useful for non-ATs. And the bullets are all obviously more useful on non-techers...

[Akaimizu]

The Twin Mayalee will lose a little bit of it's major Guntecher advantage when Guntechers finally get level 30 support techs. But as of right now, they are the Guntecher Godsend. Not only is it their only way of obtaining all 30 current levels of Zalure (and of course, a level 3 status effect on them), it still has a full Twin Handgun reach where the Guntecher's current Zalure has pitiful reach.

It's still not safe at all for a Guntecher to hang close in the battle, so they have to take an awful risk applying it using the spell version. Heck, any surround-type level 10 spell sucks to use when trying to apply it on the faster, more vicious enemies. Not only is the effectiveness reduced, but you're asking a rather weak defensive class to stand still well within every enemy attack range and cast a tech. (Not including those who have the awesome hard-to-get attachments to armors and stuff, because those things beat out the need for so many otherwise-preferred strategies)

Still, the current aspect is that Twin MayaLee gives Guntechers a debuff level they couldn't otherwise get, and be able to apply it on monsters across the room. And the fact that it's very easy to quickly spread it, while moving, does make it only a little bit slower than running in to cast the thing. A whole lot less risk involved, too.

However, if the techer has an equal-rated debuff, and one with reach, then there will be more reasons and situations to choose the actual tech instead of the bullet. The bullet would be used for cases and options where you really want to stay back or not lose that second or two of mobility. (Particularly if the number you're trying to hit with it, is small)

Still, as the above poster said. If there's another status effect level at 31+, then there's more incentive to use the bullets for more situations. It'll be a teetering balance between the two, that's all I can guess.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-09-26 13:40 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Apparently the Barada Maga gets buffed to ATA/EVP down 3 at 21 with the PA buff. Guess Zodeel does have some competition after all...

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-26 13:03, panzer_unit wrote:
yeah, just like 'rides and mates. That stuff's a force's job! If you don't have one of those guys around you deserve to go without.No, I meant soloing, or in a team without a techer.

The time it takes to pull out the weapon with the bullet debuff, apply it, change back to the damage weapon actually lowers your DPS, the monster would have died faster by just spamming the damage weapon.

Hence why it's only useful on big monsters, they stay alive long enough for debuffs to matter >_>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-09-27 06:04 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

You can use an identical shotgun to the one you're usually attacking with, and switch between Maga and elemental bullets without any delay, even on PS2 at its laggiest. The ATA debuff especially helps when you're using a shotgun anyway. When using gun-and-melee or rifle it's not worth the wait sometimes, especially since you're already avoiding damage thanks to mobility or range.