Poll: Twin Sabers and Rising Crush, or Twin Daggers and Hiso

[SolomonGrundy]

my big question would be "why?" (did you pick one over the other.

[Niloklives]

rising crush starts up much faster and is easier to control making it a much safer move to use. if you're a wartecher or something...being able to equip S rank twin daggers and only S rank twin sabers, I feel Hishou is justified for the class in the long term...otherwise go with rising.


Also just for a FYI search the gameplay&walkthroughs section. there was a lengthy discussion about the two there.

[Vickie]

oh one a tohooo a three.. a three

[Niloklives]

>_> you either really like that sig...or really hate it...<_<;

[Hrith]

I greatly prefer Assault Crush + Hishou Jinren-zan over Rising Crush + Moubu Seiren-zan, but both work well >_>

Unless you use Assault Crush + Rising Crush or Moubu Seiren-zan + Hishou Jinren-zan >_<
They work well, too, but I like to use different weapon types.

But whether for stunning or juggling, Hishou Jinren-zan is better. Rising Crush has several openings for interruption, and that annoying knockback move on final hits.

[Kylie]

Sabers / crush.

I hate jinren because it seems to have a much more narrow field of use. The saber's hits are actually timed right, allowing it to work on more enemies that aren't just fastened to the ground like worms, etc. Of course, the case may be that I don't know how to use jinren. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Niloklives]

you don't have to use that last part if you don't want to, but sometimes knockback is good. as a person who plays solo and in small parties, kicking a few enemies away for breathing space is rarely a bad thing.

[SolomonGrundy]

Just some factual data:

Accodring to the wikki:
Hisou costs 2 more pp per use
Hisou is 8% less accurate
Hisou is 10% less damaging (not sure how that works for 2nds and 3rd hits of the combo though)

Hisou hits more times on the first hit, and more targets on the last hit.

[Niloklives]

twin daggers have better accuracy and pp/regen than twin sabers, so the cost is pretty much a wash and the accuracy depends on the class/race, but generally rising is slightly better for accuracy and damage per hit, though hishou makes up for it a bit with the extra hits.

In the end, the key points are ease of use and practical application. I feel accuracy/hits/damage aside, rising is a better PA for speed, control and added effect.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-09-27 12:41 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

I like them both, depending on what I'm fighting. I tend to use Hishou's first hit to keep one or two enemies in the air, rarely completing the entire PA, while Rising crush I use the first two parts of the combo to keep a group of enemies in the air, rarely the third part of the combo.

THE JACKEL

[PJ]

The dagger PA looks flashier, and hence I vote for that one

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-27 12:18, NIloklives wrote:
you don't have to use that last part if you don't want to, but sometimes knockback is good. as a person who plays solo and in small parties, kicking a few enemies away for breathing space is rarely a bad thing.Rising Strike, Tornado Dance, Tornado Break, there are moves that specialize in that.

Rising Crush is a juggle move, and for that Hishou Jinren-zan is better.


On 2007-09-27 12:32, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Just some factual data:

Accodring to the wikki:
Hisou costs 2 more pp per use
Hisou is 8% less accurate
Hisou is 10% less damaging (not sure how that works for 2nds and 3rd hits of the combo though)

Hisou hits more times on the first hit, and more targets on the last hit.Hishou does cost more PP, but on a weapon type with higher PP and PP regen, so that's okay.

Same for the ATA, daggers are more accurate.

The number of hits give Hishou Jinren-zan better DPS, too.


Hishou Jinren-zan and Rising Crush have the same radius, for the person who was wondering.


Hishou Jinren-zan is not harder to maneuver, too, it turns easily, except maybe on the final part.

[Xaeris]

Daggers as a weapon type are more accurate than twin sabers, but despite that, Rising Crush's higher accuracy modifier gives it more ATA with a 9* GRM than Jinren has with a 9* Yohmei.

And Hishou is not nearly as forgiving as Rising Crush as far as pivoting goes. While it can have its direction changed in between steps, that's about it. Rising Crush, on the other hand, is capable of a smooth sweep at any point in its execution.

[drizzle]

Range beats all for a juggling PA. Rising Crush.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I find HJZ to be much more useful.

[panzer_unit]

Do you have (or will you invest heavily in one of) better Twin Sabers, or Twin Daggers?

[chibiLegolas]

Rising Crush for me. Reason? It's silly for most, but I love the animation on Crush better.
It's so graceful and easy to control. When I saw it the first time with twin Harisen fans, I HAD to make a fighter just for that alone. I'm not fighting. I'm DANCING!
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-27 12:53, Xaeris wrote:
And Hishou is not nearly as forgiving as Rising Crush as far as pivoting goes. While it can have its direction changed in between steps, that's about it. Rising Crush, on the other hand, is capable of a smooth sweep at any point in its execution.So all Hishou Jinren-zan requires is a little skill, God forbid >_>


On 2007-09-27 12:59, drizzle wrote:
Range beats all for a juggling PA. Rising Crush.err, Hishou Jinren-zan has better range >_>

Rising Crush moves forward more, but it has less range.

[Niloklives]

and remember...DPS has to include the actual time it takes to execute the full move and be able to start up again.

rising crush is faster and has better recovery, so hishou ends up coming up a bit short in DPS as a result of overall execution time.

Xaeris is right about the control portion as well...I like being able to turn in any direction during my PA at any time.

[RadiantLegend]

Rising Crush, The super vahra/vanda juggler.

[Xaeris]

So all Hishou Jinren-zan requires is a little skill, God forbid >_>

It requires skill to kill a man with a ball of yarn and toothpick. Doesn't mean a semi-auto machine gun isn't better at the job.

[Hrith]

On 2007-09-27 13:11, NIloklives wrote:

and remember...DPS has to include the actual time it takes to execute the full move and be able to start up again.

rising crush is faster and has better recovery, so hishou ends up coming up a bit short in DPS as a result of overall execution time.I cannot check right now, but I'm pretty sure Hishou Jinren-zan is faster and has faster recovery. It takes a little while to recover from the badass jumping move of Rising Crush.


Xaeris is right about the control portion as well...I like being able to turn in any direction during my PA at any time.So you do not use Dus Daggas and the likes? >_>


On 2007-09-27 13:15, Ragolismine wrote:
Rising Crush, The super vahra/vanda juggler.I cannot believe you are not using Assault Crush to juggle those monsters D:


On 2007-09-27 13:16, Xaeris wrote:
It requires skill to kill a man with a ball of yarn and toothpick. Doesn't mean a semi-auto machine gun isn't better at the job.Absurd analogies are so convincing. Don't tell me you have already run out of arguments.

[Niloklives]

dus daggas I only use in certain situations, and even then I find I can turn with dus daggas better than I can with hishou. As a Fighgunner, I actually only use 4 skills now in many missions:

Buten Shuren Zan
Dus Daggas
Spiral Dance
Rising Crush

everything else is bullets.

in the case of go vahras, I just side step them as they run at me and attack from behind using buten/mechgun or dus daggas. I use rising crush when side stepping is less of an option. Rising crush is faster on execution in every step meaning if I need to stop I can. hishou I feel far more vulnerable.

I really use rising crush when I need to flip larger enemies like polavohra. I can usually outmaneuver midsized enemies, so I don't use it nearly as much as I used to.

and while Xaeris' analogy is a bit out there, the point is that ease of use has its merits as well. just because something takes skill to use doesn't make it better or more practical.

[Xaeris]

Oi, it's gonna be one of those days.

Why don't we talk about why I even made my first post to begin with. In attempting to defend Hishou against Rising, you stated that Hishou is no less maneuverable than Rising.

You were wrong. Deal with it.

[RadiantLegend]

Juggling....."i said" not total annihilation without throwing them across my screen.

And i do assualt vahras(and his many other cousins/variants)

[Syl]

On 2007-09-27 13:50, Xaeris wrote:
Oi, it's gonna be one of those days.

Why don't we talk about why I even made my first post to begin with. In attempting to defend Hishou against Rising, you stated that Hishou is no less maneuverable than Rising.

You were wrong. Deal with it.



Don't fret over it Xaeris, Hrith has a history of being a deaf wall, there's no point arguing with him =/

[LTrav2k]

For launching groups, the second part of rising crush covers a wider area during the attack since I can easily rotate while it's active. I still have trouble turning during the second portion of Hishou and so I save it for where I just need to continuously stun a jarba or other large mob.

[Niloklives]

yeah but for stunlocking, depending on your class there are other options. fighgunners have spiral dance, buten works well too. hishou is fine, but I actually can stunlock just about everything with rising crush.

Either way there are more options than hishou and I feel that if you're selecting between that and rising crush I'd go with rising unless S ranks are a question.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-09-27 17:48, NIloklives wrote:
yeah but for stunlocking, depending on your class there are other options. fighgunners have spiral dance, buten works well too. hishou is fine, but I actually can stunlock just about everything with rising crush.

Either way there are more options than hishou and I feel that if you're selecting between that and rising crush I'd go with rising unless S ranks are a question.



Pretent you are a fortefighter..
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Gen2000]

Rising Crush by far.

You don't always have to use Combo 3 (ohshi...), Combo 1 > Combo 2 spam makes RC godly by itself. Hishou isn't bad though if you want to look flashier or maybe doing that "I only master PAs in weapons I have Sranks in" type of deal.