Will twin daggers be obsolete in AoI? [Archive]

Pillan

Oct 3, 2007, 01:15 PM

You forget that base ATP and PA mods were buffed to take that change into account. I’d bet it means twin dagger element percents won’t matter rather than that the weapon is obsolete. Same thing with the other low ATP weapons.

Edit:

Have we even had confirmation that that's really how element percents were nerfed?

[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-03 11:19 ]

ljkkjlcm9

Oct 3, 2007, 01:20 PM

either way, twin daggers have always been about more hits, each hit doing less damage.... why would that change?

THE JACKEL

panzer_unit

Oct 3, 2007, 01:42 PM

With the huge number of hits that Twin Daggers deal on every move, I doubt they'll generate any less additional DPS from element than other weapon classes do.

Darkly

Oct 3, 2007, 01:55 PM

So couldn't this arguement be turned around? twin daggers could still be good, but their low atp will mean that elemental would factor in less, therefore this means you don't need a high percent for twin daggers to be good, very useful IMO.

drizzle

Oct 3, 2007, 02:10 PM

Moubei got a fair damage boost so that may still be worth using but it looks like renkai and hishou are on the way out (at least I don't think these got changed).

SolomonGrundy

Oct 3, 2007, 02:10 PM

On 2007-10-03 11:42, panzer_unit wrote:
With the huge number of hits that Twin Daggers deal on every move, I doubt they'll generate any less additional DPS from element than other weapon classes do.

maybe. I guess I only have 20% elemental daggers anyway, so it's not like I have any real numbers to go by. :-/

@Darkly: no, it means weapons with high base ATP (axe, sword, spear, rifle, rod) will be more effective than weapons with low ATP and high number of hits.

[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-10-03 12:12 ]

Pillan

Oct 3, 2007, 02:28 PM

On 2007-10-03 12:10, drizzle wrote:
Moubei got a fair damage boost so that may still be worth using but it looks like renkai and hishou are on the way out (at least I don't think these got changed).

Renkai got a 10% ATA boost and Hishou got boosted to 210% ATP. Also this only shows how the first move changed. For example, Spiral Dance has the same power on the first move, but the second and third move had a significant power increase.

panzer_unit

Oct 3, 2007, 02:34 PM

It's not rocket science to balance out PA's in Phantasy Star... rate of attack, number of hits, ATP modifier, per-move ATP bonuses. Everyone should save themselves from a conniption fit and just assume that Sonic Team is capable of it until we see in-game numbers that say otherwise.

SolomonGrundy

Oct 3, 2007, 03:35 PM

On 2007-10-03 12:34, panzer_unit wrote:
It's not rocket science to balance out PA's in Phantasy Star... rate of attack, number of hits, ATP modifier, per-move ATP bonuses. Everyone should save themselves from a conniption fit and just assume that Sonic Team is capable of it until we see in-game numbers that say otherwise.

but PAs get nerfed, just as jobs get nerfed, with changes. Right now, forcing Beast ATP through daggers make them very good weapons, (high accuracy, high PP). If the balance is changed, well, the utility of a weapon may be lost.

Soukosa

Oct 3, 2007, 04:42 PM

On 2007-10-03 10:54, SolomonGrundy wrote:
that elements are only going to affect weapon ATP, not total ATP.

Uh... wha? Yes, they changed how they work. How they work exactly is still a mystery to my knowledge. I played around with it a bit with longbows (since they ignore defense) and couldn't figure it out. If it does only affect the power of the weapon, then its vastly stronger of an influence than it is right now.

Case in point, don't listen to rumors that go around here. The update was to make lower percents do more while 50% stays roughly the same compared to what it did before.

panzer_unit

Oct 3, 2007, 04:45 PM

WTF?

I don't see any jobs or PA's getting nerfed. Does anyone know for sure what changed for calculating elemental damage? I dug up the old thread but what changed for actual damage didn't support the proposed "element applies only to weapon" change. Golto said his damage dropped to 2/3 ... just on a 26% weapon. Yeah you could chalk that up just to element changes if the overall bonus was applied just to your weapon and REVERSED.

Maybe element became MORE important on daggers instead of less, like maybe PA and element modifiers aren't stacked any more. Until we get AOI or some rocket scientist tears the JP version apart for us, who's to say.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-03 15:01 ]

SolomonGrundy

Oct 3, 2007, 05:11 PM

On 2007-10-03 14:45, panzer_unit wrote:
WTF?

I don't see any jobs or PA's getting nerfed. Does anyone know for sure what changed for calculating elemental damage? I dug up the old thread but what changed for actual damage didn't support the proposed "element applies only to weapon" change. Golto said his damage dropped to 2/3 ... just on a 26% weapon. Yeah you could chalk that up just to element changes if the overall bonus was applied just to your weapon and REVERSED.

Maybe element became MORE important on daggers instead of less, like maybe PA and element modifiers aren't stacked any more. Until we get AOI or some rocket scientist tears the JP version apart for us, who's to say.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-03 15:01 ]

WTs went from second best support to worst. that's a nerf, support wise.

Daggas and renkai has thier damage modifier reduced (a nerf). Let's not play dumb.

panzer_unit

Oct 3, 2007, 05:18 PM

No, WT went from lv20 support to lv20 support. WT went from "fortetecher casts the buffs" to "acrotecher casts the buffs". That's "staying the same" in my books rather than a loss in power, and never mind the awesome gains from lv30 skills/attack techs and lv20 bullets. Being the worst support techer compared to all the others changes their _role_ in a team but they still cast 15% buff/debuff techs just like before if they need to.

Yeah, Renkai and Dus Daggas got nerfed waaaay back in the day to go along with advanced classes and higher level caps and everything ... and they're STILL the best pure damage-output moves according to everyone. I was looking at AOI stuff however.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-03 15:21 ]

Kion

Oct 3, 2007, 05:58 PM

everyone here is behind on AoI info? All tech classes get level 30 support techs except for acrotecher who gets level 40.

As for daggers, you're forgetting the other half of the equation; base ATP. A character may have 900 ATP. with 200 atp from daggers and six hits it will easily do as much damage as an 400 ATP weaon with three hits. Approximation, but you get the idea. it's like mechguns from PSO, they added almost no ATP, but the sheer number of hits produced from the character's base stats added up for massive amount of damage. with wartcher getting S ranks and level 30 buffs I don't see damage really being a problem.

that's not even to mention attack patterns. swords may have alot of ATP, but they're slow, so it's kind of impractical to try and smash eveything with gravity break. each weapon has it's uses and daggers are incredibly fast while looking cool and having great PA's. So I can't see any downside to the weapon.

ljkkjlcm9

Oct 3, 2007, 06:07 PM

not to mention with a crazy PA like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2SZ0MU0G4
who isn't going to want to use twin daggers?

THE JACKEL

SolomonGrundy

Oct 3, 2007, 06:51 PM

Panzer, this is not a critisism of the WT class, or a bitch session about the game, it's me trying to figure out how weapons will change in AoI. Now, if you don't feel that daggers will have a problem, that's fine, but don't act confused about a dicussion that involves the word 'nerf'

Kion: the number of hits in dagger PAs are not changing. This had nothing to do with speed or dagger and speed of swords, it has to do with the changes to the way elements are being handled on weapons in AoI, and if it will negatively impact the dagger.

this is NOT about wartecher/s ranks/level caps.

Kion

Oct 3, 2007, 07:03 PM

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif conversations tend to jump around. talking about dagger can include the classes that use them and the destinctive benefits that come along with it. talking about wartecher with respect to daggers. so lose the 'this is my thread gtfo' attitude please.

i didn't say the number of hits was changing. and this was the main point of my post, (so i hope that you can appretiate that) that even with low ATP, character stats in addition to more hits adds up to similar damage of weapons that have more ATP but slower attack speeds. So it's doubtful that daggers will become less effective with the elemental change.

Hero-Break

Oct 3, 2007, 08:31 PM

Hey, I was just thinking and I could be wrong, but wouldn't twin daggers take advantage of the new JA system the most since they have the most hits in a combo, thus more hits to be boosted by 1.5 the damage?

SolomonGrundy

Oct 3, 2007, 10:25 PM

On 2007-10-03 18:31, Hero-Break wrote:
Hey, I was just thinking and I could be wrong, but wouldn't twin daggers take advantage of the new JA system the most since they have the most hits in a combo, thus more hits to be boosted by 1.5 the damage?

7 hits in the combo, and they come fast. perhaps this would make up for a possible reduction in the elemental damage.

good thought...hmmm...

Mayu

Oct 3, 2007, 11:44 PM

On 2007-10-03 14:42, Soukosa wrote:

On 2007-10-03 10:54, SolomonGrundy wrote:
that elements are only going to affect weapon ATP, not total ATP.
Soukosa wrote
The update was to make lower percents do more while 50% stays roughly the same compared to what it did before.

I thank you

As for twin daggers

Hell no, Never be obsolete <.<

Can all of you stop being emo now? 50%s are still good, Just low %s are more useful

[ This Message was edited by: Mayu on 2007-10-03 21:45 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Mayu on 2007-10-03 21:46 ]

panzer_unit

Oct 3, 2007, 11:47 PM

Supposing everything is EXACTLY like people are guessing so far and there are no surprises like a really nice damage boost on the last move of Renkai, it looks like Twin Dagger is taking a dive as a damage dealing weapon. Element bonuses just applied to ATP aren't sitting on enough hits to break even with knuckles or twin claws, never mind anything on a weapon with 3 or more times the ATP.

Just Attack doesn't really favor twin daggers either. Multiplying a couple really large numbers is the same as multiplying a lot of smaller ones. Twin Sabers attack for 1 + 2 + 3 hits, don't they? Making them exactly the same as daggers for the number of JA hits in a normal combo. IIRC twin claws for girls are the same deal and even more powerful.

As best as I can figure, Twin Dagger's going to be a low-tier offensive weapon in exchange for being the ultimate in exploiting PP conservation. A regeneration of 2 per hit would have dagger moves paying for themselves with change left over.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-04 06:29 ]

Masou

Oct 4, 2007, 04:22 AM

daggs better still be good then, those are my favorite weapons http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

SolomonGrundy

Oct 4, 2007, 12:47 PM

On 2007-10-03 21:47, panzer_unit wrote:
Supposing everything is EXACTLY like people are guessing so far and there are no surprises like a really nice damage boost on the last move of Renkai, it looks like Twin Dagger is taking a dive as a damage dealing weapon. Element bonuses just applied to ATP aren't sitting on enough hits to break even with knuckles or twin claws, never mind anything on a weapon with 3 or more times the ATP.

Just Attack doesn't really favor twin daggers either. Multiplying a couple really large numbers is the same as multiplying a lot of smaller ones. Twin Sabers attack for 1 + 2 + 3 hits, don't they? Making them exactly the same as daggers for the number of JA hits in a normal combo. IIRC twin claws for girls are the same deal and even more powerful.

As best as I can figure, Twin Dagger's going to be a low-tier offensive weapon in exchange for being the ultimate in exploiting PP conservation. A regeneration of 2 per hit would have dagger moves paying for themselves with change left over.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-04 06:29 ]

ohhh, you get it now?
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

panzer_unit

Oct 4, 2007, 01:18 PM

I'm just confirming all the bitching and whining so people feel validated, and kindly pointing out that TD's are going to be EVEN BETTER in the one area where the whole weapon class excels, which is PP capacity/regen... they're not supposed to be damage monsters, if that's just some trick you can only pull off with a Beast fighter and a bunch of 44-50% ele weapons.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-04 11:41 ]

SolomonGrundy

Oct 4, 2007, 02:23 PM

I like twin daggers for thier PP and accuracy. The damage pretty much only works because I am a beast. I only have 18-20% twins, I'm not sure what your beef is with me. I'm simply capitolizing on a weapon that help me overcome my shortcomings.

If there is a nerf to twin daggers, that's a shame, as it's one of my staple weapons as a fF.

panzer_unit

Oct 4, 2007, 03:52 PM

My beef is all this doom and gloom. Nobody's confirmed the "element only applies to weapon ATP" thing or given any overall impressions of twin daggers in AOI (since they might get rebalanced to work fine even with so little element damage)... but we're gonna start ringing the funeral bell, just in case.

Is TD damage even all that good? It never was for my alt. The weapons have low ATP, the PA's have low ATP, and stuff like Buten Suren-zan or Dus Daggas can deal almost as many hits. What PA's do you use? How hard to they hit?

SolomonGrundy

Oct 4, 2007, 04:05 PM

I use the most hated twin dagger PA. I use it because it hits, while tornado break throws too many zeroes.

with 18% twin daggers and agtaride my normal hits are 250 (level 82 male beaast fF 10). 1st part of the PA does 350, then up to 450 in the second part of the combo.

No, the damage is not great, but dus duggas has a hard time trapping 2 enemies unless they stand still like olgohmons.

Doom and gloom? Nah. But what's wrong with planning ahead? I was going to learn the twin dagger ultimate PA for juggling rather than the twin sword PA. if twin daggers are going to get a damage reduction, then perhaps I do not wand to spend the PA fragments on this.

panzer_unit

Oct 4, 2007, 06:56 PM

On 2007-10-04 14:05, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I use the most hated twin dagger PA. I use it because it hits, while tornado break throws too many zeroes.

with 18% twin daggers and agtaride my normal hits are 250 (level 82 male beaast fF 10). 1st part of the PA does 350, then up to 450 in the second part of the combo.

No, the damage is not great, but dus duggas has a hard time trapping 2 enemies unless they stand still like olgohmons.

Doom and gloom? Nah. But what's wrong with planning ahead? I was going to learn the twin dagger ultimate PA for juggling rather than the twin sword PA. if twin daggers are going to get a damage reduction, then perhaps I do not wand to spend the PA fragments on this.

Holy crap. That's a LOT of damage on the last move at least. It's as many hits as the first two moves combined and each does almost twice the damage you start at.

I agree with Dus Daggas, the only thing I can consistently score full hits on at the start of the combo are multi-target enemies, and they would usually open a can on me before I could finish the last move. Everyone calls me a noob when I point out how hard it is to get the full thing out sometimes.

If you're looking at other melee weapons I can see why you picked up knuckles and Spinning Break. They get some awesome damage boosts in AOI too.

SolomonGrundy

Oct 4, 2007, 10:50 PM

On 2007-10-04 16:56, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-10-04 14:05, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I use the most hated twin dagger PA. I use it because it hits, while tornado break throws too many zeroes.

with 18% twin daggers and agtaride my normal hits are 250 (level 82 male beaast fF 10). 1st part of the PA does 350, then up to 450 in the second part of the combo.

No, the damage is not great, but dus duggas has a hard time trapping 2 enemies unless they stand still like olgohmons.

Doom and gloom? Nah. But what's wrong with planning ahead? I was going to learn the twin dagger ultimate PA for juggling rather than the twin sword PA. if twin daggers are going to get a damage reduction, then perhaps I do not wand to spend the PA fragments on this.

Holy crap. That's a LOT of damage on the last move at least. It's as many hits as the first two moves combined and each does almost twice the damage you start at.

I agree with Dus Daggas, the only thing I can consistently score full hits on at the start of the combo are multi-target enemies, and they would usually open a can on me before I could finish the last move. Everyone calls me a noob when I point out how hard it is to get the full thing out sometimes.

If you're looking at other melee weapons I can see why you picked up knuckles and Spinning Break. They get some awesome damage boosts in AOI too.

Well, to be honest, spinning break and zubba is for a ProTranser.
You are not a noob for disliking Dus Duggas as a source of damage for medium sized enemies. it a great boss killer, and yes, once an large enemy is tipped over/stunned/frozen/otherwise not moving then it dishes the highest DPS in the game.

Again, I was considering picking up a launcher for a beast fortefighter. Something that can stunlock a jarba in a pinch. I was/am considering the ultimate twin dagger Pa. If daggers get downgraded significantly in damage though...

*sigh*

Tsavo

Oct 5, 2007, 12:34 AM

Why the ult dagger pa over say Rising Crush? Lots o' stun and a high damage mod to boot.

panzer_unit

Oct 5, 2007, 08:11 AM

It's not like Twin Saber's a whole hell of a lot better off for ATP than Twin Dagger. Are stun-locking moves really that effective compared to just shooting the thing from safety? My choice of attack would probably be handgunning and maybe some hit and run Gravity Break once I'm down to 1 target or if there are teammates distracting them.

SolomonGrundy

Oct 5, 2007, 12:35 PM

On 2007-10-04 22:34, Tsavo wrote:
Why the ult dagger pa over say Rising Crush? Lots o' stun and a high damage mod to boot.

You are right - it IS great

Here are few reasons.
1. Everyone uses rising crush
2. I have another character who uses rising crush, and thus is entitled to all the good twin sabers.
3. I think you don't get as close to with the twin dagger PA?
4. PP on the twin daggers. yeah, it costs 6 most pp for the entire move, but they have ~50 more PP to start with.
5. I
thinkthat the twin dagger has 1 more hit http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Tsavo

Oct 5, 2007, 12:52 PM

Understandable. I hate recycling PAs on different characters as well. I guess the safe thing to do would be to wait and see. Come AoI the in's and out's of melee change considerably, the tweaking of elemental %'s is just one aspect of the overhaul.

Tsavo

Oct 5, 2007, 12:57 PM

On 2007-10-05 06:11, panzer_unit wrote:
It's not like Twin Saber's a whole hell of a lot better off for ATP than Twin Dagger. Are stun-locking moves really that effective compared to just shooting the thing from safety? My choice of attack would probably be handgunning and maybe some hit and run Gravity Break once I'm down to 1 target or if there are teammates distracting them.

That can work, I don't like doing it much though. I don't carry many handguns when I run fF. I use em but against something like a jarba I'd rather go for the sabers. Decent element twin sabers let me tear in to him, keep him from firing all his chessey megid balls and barta, and allow me a certain amount of control over my movements. When there's only one or two left then I'd go for Gravity Break or Dus Robado, something sigle target.

SolomonGrundy

Oct 5, 2007, 02:00 PM

On 2007-10-05 10:57, Tsavo wrote:

On 2007-10-05 06:11, panzer_unit wrote:
It's not like Twin Saber's a whole hell of a lot better off for ATP than Twin Dagger. Are stun-locking moves really that effective compared to just shooting the thing from safety? My choice of attack would probably be handgunning and maybe some hit and run Gravity Break once I'm down to 1 target or if there are teammates distracting them.

That can work, I don't like doing it much though. I don't carry many handguns when I run fF. I use em but against something like a jarba I'd rather go for the sabers. Decent element twin sabers let me tear in to him, keep him from firing all his chessey megid balls and barta, and allow me a certain amount of control over my movements. When there's only one or two left then I'd go for Gravity Break or Dus Robado, something sigle target.

I agree. It's pretty humiliating to shoot with your pistol for 300/shot when the newman fortetecher is standing right beside you using cards and hitting for 150x3 a shot.

CelestialBlade

Oct 5, 2007, 02:09 PM

On 2007-10-05 10:35, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2007-10-04 22:34, Tsavo wrote:
Why the ult dagger pa over say Rising Crush? Lots o' stun and a high damage mod to boot.

You are right - it IS great

Here are few reasons.
1. Everyone uses rising crush
2. I have another character who uses rising crush, and thus is entitled to all the good twin sabers.
3. I think you don't get as close to with the twin dagger PA?
4. PP on the twin daggers. yeah, it costs 6 most pp for the entire move, but they have ~50 more PP to start with.
5. I
thinkthat the twin dagger has 1 more hit http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

At the same time, you don't need PA frags to get Rising Crush.

panzer_unit

Oct 5, 2007, 03:10 PM

On 2007-10-05 12:00, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I agree. It's pretty humiliating to shoot with your pistol for 300/shot when the newman fortetecher is standing right beside you using cards and hitting for 150x3 a shot.

The card-flinging Fortetecher probably outdamages Fortegunners using a handgun too... my lv21+ skills hit for about 400. One's a DPS weapon and the other is plain utility. It's not because you're a fortefighter or because you have lv10 skills, it's because outdamaging cards isn't what a handgun's supposed to do.

SolomonGrundy

Oct 5, 2007, 04:52 PM

well then, mr. panzer, what IS a level 10 pistol shot supposed to do, mmm?

xennec

Oct 5, 2007, 05:11 PM

I don't think that twin daggers will be obsolete. Other weapons may do more damage in certain instances but twin daggers can be used in almost any situation. Twin daggers are faster which also allows better maneuverability. I can easily outdamage my fists with my twin daggers of the same % because of the better maneuverability and more hits. It helps me spend a lot less time being knocked onto the ground when I could be doing damage. Also I can't think of any time when Sega made anything horribly unbalanced in PSU. Some things are unbalanced, but there's nothing that a player can't make do with. With the AoI classes I can see that many things were balanced out. Right now twin daggers aren't horrible compared to anything else. I am sure that twin daggers will get weaker because of the elemental modifiers being nerfed, but so will every other weapon.