Acrofighter vs. Wartecher

[Nyreal]

I'm trying to decide which class is better... So I'm curious: what are the stat percentages of a level ten acrofighter vs. a level ten wartecher? Thanks alot!

[can't find it on PSUpedia... so... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif]

[ashley50]

its all about how you play the class.

AcroFighter = No Techs
Wartecher = has Techs



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ashley50 on 2007-10-13 17:47 ]</font>

[Pillan]

WT 10:
HP: 130%
ATP: 112%
ATA: 80%
TP: 112%
DFP: 122%
EVP: 160%
MST: 130%
STA: 100%

AF 10:
HP: 124%
ATP: 124%
ATA: 130%
TP: 136%
DFP: 140%
EVP: 230%
MST: 100%
STA: 120%

Basically AF has a bit less HP and MST and a lot more of everything else. AF can also use damage and the DoT basic and G traps while WT can use techs.

I really feel sorry for WT, even with buffs and Resta taken into account.

[PJ]

Let's keep in mind, AF's have a really crappy weapon selection. They NEED the stats.

Kind of like an opposite Protranser. They have great weapon selection, so to give them good stats would be broken.

[Nyreal]

AFs have great stats... Hm... I guess I can dual-specialize.

[Xencia]

Something I just realized, the two new Acro classes join GunTecher as the only non-spear using classes. But really, the weapons aren't that bad, no sword/spear/axe, but I hear Spinning Strike on saber is very good, and of course slicers and the slicer PA look pretty strong. To me the class has just what I want, S-rank slicers and single claw. Something for crowds and for one on one fights.

Edit: I'm not sure how bad the missing is with a Beast WT. But I'd think that AcroFighter would be one of the best classes for a Beast. It has the ata mod to shore up that racial deficiency, and can make good use of that Beast hp and atp.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xencia on 2007-10-13 20:14 ]</font>

[ashley50]

On 2007-10-13 18:00, PJ wrote:
Let's keep in mind, AF's have a really crappy weapon selection. They NEED the stats.

Kind of like an opposite Protranser. They have great weapon selection, so to give them good stats would be broken.


Stats here, stats that.

Do people only care about stats?
and I prefer it to be called "Limited" than crappy selection.

I'll laugh if i see you play aF...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ashley50 on 2007-10-13 20:52 ]</font>

[Kimil]

High ATA
Card/Dualie Usage
S rank Claw, Dagger, Saber
Twin Daggers access too
Kick Ass Stats...

At least for 6 person parties, This will be my class

[PJ]

On 2007-10-13 20:35, ashley50 wrote:

On 2007-10-13 18:00, PJ wrote:
Let's keep in mind, AF's have a really crappy weapon selection. They NEED the stats.

I'll laugh if i see you play aF...

Don't worry. I'm not.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-13 20:35, ashley50 wrote:
Stats here, stats that.

Do people only care about stats?


It's an RPG, so there's no real skill to the game; just stat mods.

What else can I care about?

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-13 20:47, Kimil wrote:
High ATA
Card/Dualie Usage
S rank Claw, Dagger, Saber
Twin Daggers access too
Kick Ass Stats...

At least for 6 person parties, This will be my class



EDIT: I'm confused, I looked at the picture of AFs weapons, and there are no twin daggers...
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=141456&forum=22&14





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-10-14 01:56 ]</font>

[ashley50]

On 2007-10-14 01:43, SolomonGrundy wrote:
EDIT: I'm confused, I looked at the picture of AFs weapons, and there are no twin daggers...
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=141456&forum=22&14


That's an OLD/outdated pic...below is the CORRECT one...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/ashley_riot/05.jpg

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I was too lazy to change that pic, but I edited it now, so go see for yourself.

[Bitey]

On 2007-10-13 21:30, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-10-13 20:35, ashley50 wrote:
Stats here, stats that.

Do people only care about stats?


It's an RPG, so there's no real skill to the game; just stat mods.

What else can I care about?



Sorry, but I disagree and i find that comment offensive. All of the defensive stats and DPS in the game do not mean shit unless you have the skill to dodge while still pumping out constant damage. Just look at Rifle spammers, they think that the Rifle is a good DPS weapon because they can sit back out of the fray and spam an attack uninterrupted, but the truth is that the Rifle is one of the worse DPS wepaons in the game because any skilled player can still shoot any other ranger weapon as much as possible while hitting max targets and not getting hit.

Even more so, being smart enough to realize the strengths and weaknesses of your character is a skill in itself.

There are videos on YouTube of a Fortegunner soloing Hive S2 with only 1hp in less than 30 minutes. There are accounts of teams completing Firebreak missions that were deemed impossible with 5 minutes left on the timer. There are people that can jump from level 90 to level 100 in one day of play. For you to say that this game requires no skill is a rude insult to all of those people because you are basically saying that their hard work is not skillful...

[Pillan]

Well, I’m sorry that I offended you, but I’ll stick by that comment.

Besides getting through HIVE with 1 HP, I’d argue that the rest had a very low skill requirement. Common RPG logic says dodge enemy attacks, debuff enemies, buff allies, heal when HP is low, use the attack that deals the most damage, etc. The extreme cases you mentioned can simply be satisfied by having the stats of a Newman fT and joining a party of just Newman fTs who lag the game to double cast the Dam- series, Megiverse, and Regrants. The other half is based on countless hours of skill, bullet, and tech leveling, which doesn’t require much skill and effort, being patient/lucky enough to get rare units, high percent armors, and high percent weapons, and playing with those people who have done the things mentioned above.

Based on that, I’d say it’s more stat dependent than anyone else. However, I have often made the mistake of assuming people have common RPG logic.

[SolomonGrundy]

Wartechers do seem to have it hard. If you wanted to be more melee based, AF seems better in all the ways that count. if you wanted to use techs, AT does them better, and gives you great suppport too.


I'd go so far as to argue that AF compete's with fF, now that they get traps. Sabers/single claws have sky high ATP.

[Bitey]

Common RPG logic says dodge enemy attacks, debuff enemies, buff allies, heal when HP is low, use the attack that deals the most damage, etc.

That is the generic strategy for most RPGs, yes, but what you are missing is that a skilled player in this game can ignore certain steps in that plan and still pull out a better, faster victory than other teams because they simply can play the game better.

To a skilled player, HP, Defense, and Mental Strength do not matter because the player can dodge all attacks with little effort. To a skilled player, the slowness of a Shotgun is not an impairment because the player can time attacks and predict enemy behavior for perfect accuracy without retribution. To a skilled player, Regrants is not a mob scattering annoyance because the player can herd all of the enemies into a corner with ease and keep them there with in a matter of seconds. Even the patience and know how to spam a certain mission until a certain something drops is a skill in it's own way; the same goes for the knowledge of being able to lag the game and create a glitch in the players favor.

And by no means are any of these skills of very low requirement. You could put this game in front of a doctor who has never touched video games in his/her life and I can guarantee that they would have to call for help in order to even turn it on and get online. Surely everyone who has ever started this game did not instantly know how to strafe, or what items dropped in what mission, or that all it took to level a PA was hitting anything a certain number of times. Hell, even I, with my prior over 12 years of video game, LARP, table top, and card game experience as well previous PSO play did not instantly know that I had to link techniques to Wands/Rods in order to use them nor did I understand what any of the numbers meant.

The ability to play this game by itself is a skill that more than 90% of the entire world does not have and it is so condescending of somebody to claim that that skill is not worth anything let alone a greater skill within the game itself.

How closed minded of you...

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-14 13:14, Bitey wrote:

Common RPG logic says dodge enemy attacks, debuff enemies, buff allies, heal when HP is low, use the attack that deals the most damage, etc.

That is the generic strategy for most RPGs, yes, but what you are missing is that a skilled player in this game can ignore certain steps in that plan and still pull out a better, faster victory than other teams because they simply can play the game better.

To a skilled player, HP, Defense, and Mental Strength do not matter because the player can dodge all attacks with little effort. To a skilled player, the slowness of a Shotgun is not an impairment because the player can time attacks and predict enemy behavior for perfect accuracy without retribution. To a skilled player, Regrants is not a mob scattering annoyance because the player can herd all of the enemies into a corner with ease and keep them there with in a matter of seconds. Even the patience and know how to spam a certain mission until a certain something drops is a skill in it's own way; the same goes for the knowledge of being able to lag the game and create a glitch in the players favor.

And by no means are any of these skills of very low requirement. You could put this game in front of a doctor who has never touched video games in his/her life and I can guarantee that they would have to call for help in order to even turn it on and get online. Surely everyone who has ever started this game did not instantly know how to strafe, or what items dropped in what mission, or that all it took to level a PA was hitting anything a certain number of times. Hell, even I, with my prior over 12 years of video game, LARP, table top, and card game experience as well previous PSO play did not instantly know that I had to link techniques to Wands/Rods in order to use them nor did I understand what any of the numbers meant.

The ability to play this game by itself is a skill that more than 90% of the entire world does not have and it is so condescending of somebody to claim that that skill is not worth anything let alone a greater skill within the game itself.

How closed minded of you...



Bitey, the bottom line is, even if you COUNT skill, certain stats make some jobs easier than others.

[Nyreal]

Bitey, I love you. This is why stats aren't horribly important to me. I just wanted to compare the two classes.

This game is like PSO so much that I understand its every mechanic. I've been playing the same game for nearly six years; you'd think I'd have a little skill by now.

[Niloklives]

yeahbut grundy made a valid point: Skill is still secondary to stats since certain classes and class/race combinations allow you to use your skill to greater extent and cushion for a lack of skill as well. the same is said about fighting games and its a valid argument here as well. face it: there are alwasy going to be classes/races all around better than others. that doesn't make them more or less fun, just faster at getting the job done. what you consider fun is what makes you pick the classes and races that you do, buut enjoying something does not make your choices ideal for meta game.

basically there are two conversations here and people are seeing them as one.

[Nyreal]

Unless you consider challenge as fun. There's alot of people who like to struggle and consider that fun, and there's also alot of people who consider large numbers to be fun as well.

It's personal preference. As I tend to have to remind this board when the elitist debates start: It's our ten dollars a month; don't tell us how to spend it.

[Tsavo]

On 2007-10-14 15:39, NIloklives wrote:


basically there are two conversations here and people are seeing them as one.



Truth

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-10-14 15:41, Nyreal wrote:

It's personal preference. As I tend to have to remind this board when the elitist debates start: It's our ten dollars a month; don't tell us how to spend it.

Why is giving constructive criticism so often confused with elitism?

Oh, and to counter that point, you can play any way you want, but that doesn't mean I have to put up with it in my party.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-10-14 22:32, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-10-14 15:41, Nyreal wrote:

It's personal preference. As I tend to have to remind this board when the elitist debates start: It's our ten dollars a month; don't tell us how to spend it.

Why is giving constructive criticism so often confused with elitism?

Oh, and to counter that point, you can play any way you want, but that doesn't mean I have to put up with it in my party.


because the same people who give "constructive criticism" say things like that, which makes them elitist.

And honestly there are a few key difference between these two classes.

First, wartecher only has S rank daggers, twin dagger, and wands. Acrofighter has a lot more S ranks. Wartecher also has whips, while acrofighter does not. Wartecher has techs, while Acrofighter does not. To be completely honest, I don't know why you're choosing between these two classes, they're very different. I'd understand more of, fighgunner or acrofighter, but even those classes play very different.

And to add: I'm gonna end up with 3 characters in the long run: Fighgunner, Acrofighter, Wartecher... lol

THE JACKEL



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2007-10-14 22:47 ]</font>

[Nyreal]

On 2007-10-14 22:46, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
To be completely honest, I don't know why you're choosing between these two classes, they're very different. I'd understand more of, fighgunner or acrofighter, but even those classes play very different.

THE JACKEL
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2007-10-14 22:47 ]</font>


Well, I like them. And, in my opinion, using only Buffs is a horrible way to play a FO. And besides, like I said before, I like them both. I enjoy being a Hunter, and Acrofighter specializes in the weapons I enjoy the most. There doesn't have to be some long drawn out strategic reason behind things. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-14 22:46, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:


First, wartecher only has S rank daggers, twin dagger, and wands. Acrofighter has a lot more S ranks. Wartecher also has whips, while acrofighter does not. Wartecher has techs, while Acrofighter does not. To be completely honest, I don't know why you're choosing between these two classes, they're very different. I'd understand more of, fighgunner or acrofighter, but even those classes play very different.




GT and fG get compared a lot. fF and FiG used to get compared a lot. It's natural to compare jobs.

I think WT was thought of as a tough little tank that could melee decently. AF is looking more and more like a tank-type job (high HP/DFP/EVP).

[Pillan]

The reason people compare different classes is first because they can’t decide which one is better and want to hear someone else’s thoughts and because in the long run these huge differences that we pretend exist between the classes all can be reduced to real output/time.

WT and AF aren’t very different at all. Adding in weapons, armor, PA limits, and buffs, WT’s stats are practically identical AF’s. A small and insignificant difference you could mention is that AF can use more of the cooler looking S ranks while WT has a slightly wider variety of melee weapons (spears, swords, and whips traded in for slicers). So, really, you can always pretend the classes play vastly differently, but I see a huge overlap in style. The only major difference I see between the two is being that WT sacrifices max potential for the ability to use techniques. (This is exactly the same as the real trade off between fG and GT, if you didn’t notice.)

So, personally, I’d argue AF is a better trade off since I’ll be playing in parties with a Force that has a higher support cap, making the potential damage more important than the solo stat comparison.

[SolomonGrundy]

The only major difference I see between the two is being that WT sacrifices max potential for the ability to use techniques. (This is exactly the same as the real trade off between fG and GT, if you didn’t notice.)

nah, it different. GTs are not going to use techs for damage (at least, not in any real way).

to me the trade off with WT, when compared to AF is resta, and MST. Of course, the only race with useable MST as WT is newman.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-10-14 22:46, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:

because the same people who give "constructive criticism" say things like that, which makes them elitist.
Such hypocrisy. People say "oh, I pay $10 a month, I should be able to play however I want so I can have fun, even if it means sucking at the game and yelling at people that try to help me" yet others are chastised for saying "oh, I pay $10 a month, so if I get a kick out of actually playing the game well and trying to help others get better (while not hesitating to boot them for lulz if they annoy me), then I should be allowed to do that."

Can't have it both ways.

[LTrav2k]

Both classes look like they're going to be a lot of fun. On paper AF looks superior stat wise, but as they said with the inclusion of WT buffs/debuffs, it's a much closer race. In any aspect, wartechers are probably going to have to be people who want to be good at the game... because as folks have said earlier there are a lot of other classes who will have an easier time due to stats.

We're finally going to have the offensive capabilities to not be pitiful, but it's going to take a solid PA choice and good use of JA and JC if you're wanting to throw up flashy numbers as a wartecher.

I'm probably going to make an alt acrofighter because I like the style of light, evasive combat. The just counters are awesome for people who are paying attention to the fight, and so I guess that will bring an additional measure of skill to the game.

And about the constructive criticism bit, both sides are right... it is your money and no one can tell you how to spend it. On that same token, if that's an escape for being terrible at the game you can't be mad if you're kicked. Not saying that anyone's terrible here, I just know that some folks throw that up and expect the group to keep them like they owe it to them or something...

Reality is, some choices may not afford you the same groups that may be adept at hunting rares or finishing the more difficult missions... but oh well.

Why were these classes being compared again? Some of their job details are a bit different in my opinion.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LTrav2k on 2007-10-17 08:16 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

The thing is, solo, WT is going to be better. Bow, as a long range weapon, access to the heavy weapons (sword, spear), and debuffs and resta make the WT job the best suited to a given situation.

AF will be far superior in a party, even in a small party, as it has sky high stats, usable weapon selection, and DoT trap use - in particular Virus Traps, which realy take care of enemies like strateria, that can be a pain.

[Pengfishh]

On 2007-10-15 11:09, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Such hypocrisy. People say "oh, I pay $10 a month, I should be able to play however I want so I can have fun, even if it means sucking at the game and yelling at people that try to help me" yet others are chastised for saying "oh, I pay $10 a month, so if I get a kick out of actually playing the game well and trying to help others get better (while not hesitating to boot them for lulz if they annoy me), then I should be allowed to do that."

Can't have it both ways.



You seem bitter.

[TranceZiggy]

AF is basically like FiG, in a way.. Just minus the Double Saber & Two Single-Handed Guns http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif.

Oh, and does anyone know if any classes get stat bonuses with AF?

I <3 FiG as a Human, cos instead of 116% ATP, we get 119%

[Kion]

On 2007-10-14 23:26, SolomonGrundy wrote:

GT and fG get compared a lot. fF and FiG used to get compared a lot. It's natural to compare jobs.



Very true, but that's more because fortegnners were the dual fanboy's of PSU for a while. Once AoI comes around i think the two playstyles are going to split and become very different classes. In terms of wartecher vs. Acrofighter, hey're pretty different classes right from the otuset and they both look awesome.

Acrofighter is looking like a great class in terms of close range weapon combinations. Just thinking about slicers with shadoogs is making me drool. not to mention that all of the S ranks are one handed and can be paired together for additonal combos. not to mention fast attack speeds and great stats. This class is definately going to hold it's own even if it doesn't look like a powerhouse.

also th usage of ultimate PA's can really play into this class. This is the only class that can benefit from th ultimate fan PA with the HP regen, and three hits; the class may as well have resta. in addition to linking twn mayalee to dualies and SE on shadoos and handguns. I'm really expecting alot from the class.

and wartecher is a class that's being really understimated in going into AoI. The class is getting level 30 attack technigues and level 30 skills. am i the only one looking forward to freezing six enemies on a gi- tech on a madoog before going to a full combo on daggers? wartecher is exactly that attacks, combined with tech support. and there's tons of techs like retnis and foie (which gets SE4 at lv 21) to balance out what they lack in power. not to mention the wde weapon selection including swords a-la gravity break.

and for any one that whines about warecther not getting support techniques, i'm pretty sure megistar get's SE3 buffs at level 11. which is perfect considdering the PA restraints of the class and soloing. WT having resta and massive HP, the HP reduction on the tech really doesn't make a difference.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-18 01:06, Kion wrote:
also th usage of ultimate PA's can really play into this class. This is the only class that can benefit from th ultimate fan PA with the HP regen, and three hits; the class may as well have resta. in addition to linking twn mayalee to dualies and SE on shadoos and handguns. I'm really expecting alot from the class.


Just a general note on that: Twin Mayalee got nerfed to SE 2 max, so you’re better off with the SE 3 DFP down of the second card bullet. I wouldn’t use Twin Handguns for anything outside of bosses on that class.


On 2007-10-18 01:06, Kion wrote:
and wartecher is a class that's being really understimated in going into AoI. The class is getting level 30 attack technigues and level 30 skills. am i the only one looking forward to freezing six enemies on a gi- tech on a madoog before going to a full combo on daggers? wartecher is exactly that attacks, combined with tech support. and there's tons of techs like retnis and foie (which gets SE4 at lv 21) to balance out what they lack in power. not to mention the wde weapon selection including swords a-la gravity break.

and for any one that whines about warecther not getting support techniques, i'm pretty sure megistar get's SE3 buffs at level 11. which is perfect considdering the PA restraints of the class and soloing. WT having resta and massive HP, the HP reduction on the tech really doesn't make a difference.


A few notes on that:

All AoE techs get their range nerfed (the Gi- series, Megiverse, Regrants and all the support), the only techs which have SE 4 as WT are Foie and Diga (though they get other SE 4s from whips and Shadoogs), Megistar has the same SE level as the other buffs (so it really just saves time and PP rather than giving you a better buff), and I’m pretty sure enemy STA wasn’t lowered enough for one Gibarta to freeze everything.

I’ll still argue the main advantage of WT over any other class is that they have the highest ATP and highest skill cap thrown into the overpowered whip skills. And that’s really the only reason I’ll actually play them in AoI.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-18 05:44 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

The skill and stat boosts on WT makes it the classe I'm most excited about in AOI, even more than Protranser which got a major improvement on damage but won't play mych differently aside from the major change to elemental laser skills.

Level 30 AOE attack techs with SE3 (Ra- and Dam- series even if Gi- gets nerfed to uselessness) ... left handed casting so you can keep a melee weapon armed ... and full use of two-handed melee PA combos. That's going to be pretty awesome.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-18 06:19 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Honestly, none of the “improvements” in AoI excite me because I see it as “balancing” rather than “improving”. All the partial classes except FG sucked compared to the Fortes and fF didn’t have a significant enough ATP difference from FG to make it worth playing the class, so it was obvious that all the partial classes except FG would receive vast changes and fF would get a lot more ATP if they were going for balance. Even if you look at the huge buffs on the ATP mods of the high power weapon arts, you’ll notice this was done to stop the huge change on base ATP from making them suck. (You know, the basic principal behind high percent twin daggers being broken in the current game.)


The way I see it is whips kill tech-based shock, silence, and confusion, poison is a useless SE, and their only tech access to infection is SE 2, which does not work on large mobs, making bows their only real infection option. So that reduces all the useful tech-SEs to Dambarta, Damfoie, Megid, Regrants, and Foie. You can argue you don’t need an SE 3 freeze wall in front of you when you have an SE 4 shock/silence AoE move that has a faster hit rate, casting a higher infliction rate SE at a higher level even more often which reduces the useful techs to Megid, Regrants, Damfoie and Foie.

Then there’s the tech damage argument. I say go for it if you’re a Newman who can’t afford constant skill spam. But I really have a hard time believing a WT will use tech damage for anything when you have a female Newman AT saying melee is better on that class. Of course there are always the worst case scenarios, so I’ll mention them now: flying enemies when your card/bow damage is less than your tech damage, high DFP melee resistant enemies (Zamvapas), things that instant death would just work better on (four legged robots), and things that you’d rather not rush into (Vanda Mertha, though you could always argue just using the earth 7 star whip would work better).

And that is why I’d argue WT is just the hunter with Resta. The new HUmar, if you will. Hopefully they’ll rebalance ranged and tech damage so this won’t be the case.

[panzer_unit]

I'm of the opinion that things in PSU work pretty well as-is.

If you're close enough to try procing some SE with a whip, you're close enough to pull out a much more damaging PA on a much more damaging weapon and start launching fools into the air. Don't get me wrong, whips are probably AWESOME against Navals with the 6 targets and the shock and lightning element and everything. Go Varhas? Probably much much less so.

Ra-techs let you try to stagger stuff around with a good chance of landing statuses before it gets a chance to attack. You can make up for lost time by meleeing with something stronger than a whip.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-18 07:57, panzer_unit wrote:
If you're close enough to try procing some SE with a whip, you're close enough to pull out a much more damaging PA on a much more damaging weapon and start launching fools into the air. Don't get me wrong, whips are probably AWESOME against Navals with the 6 targets and the shock and lightning element and everything. Go Varhas? Probably much much less so.


What’s more damaging than 140% x 6 over 7 hits in 4-5 seconds, with the last 4 hits having a higher modifier?

But, then again, I’m the type of guy who would rather use Renkai than Tornado Break or Dus Robado just because it is much higher damage/time if the combo is uninterrupted. Of course it requires for there to be 5-6 targets in range for that to be good damage, but that’s the same requirement as any high damage technique, and the general reason for the previous arguments was that there aren’t many situations where techs are all that useful.

Really, I’d say it depends on how good I am with whips. With Renkai, I can easily run straight into a swarm of Go Vahra, watch them jump past me, and then start the combo, hitting the 3 facing away from me right behind me and blowing them away before they finish turning around. I’d assume I could do the same thing better with a whip just because everything causes flinch in the new game. Worst case scenario, I can just throw Jellen and Resta on the left hand.

That and what’s so wrong with sucking it up and doing same element or neutral damage until the SE lands? I mean, you’re doing that most of the time you use any SE besides freeze anyway.


On 2007-10-18 07:57, panzer_unit wrote:
Ra-techs let you try to stagger stuff around with a good chance of landing statuses before it gets a chance to attack. You can make up for lost time by meleeing with something stronger than a whip.


My main problem with that is why would a WT ever be that far away from the enemies? You could stagger stuff and get those SEs or you could run in with a whip and do a better job staggering stuff (since everything causes enemies to flinch…) while dealing higher damage and more SEs but risk being tossed around. Or you could even run in close and do the same thing with a Gi- technique, giving you higher SE and higher damage if there are more than 4 targets. Or, better yet, skip the whole process and just melee with something stronger than a whip. WT has high HP, DFP, EVP, MST, and Resta for a reason. Use it.


But, yeah, it seems we have two separate definitions of strength. To me, the strongest weapons in the game are the ones with the weakest stats, which deal the highest damage/time (aside from a couple exceptions such as crossbows, slicers, and spears).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-18 10:51 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

Which is why fighgunners are broken with crossbows and level 30 Bullets.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-18 11:15, Carlo210 wrote:
Which is why fighgunners are broken with crossbows and level 30 Bullets.


Given that every class except fF can SE spam easily (and fF has a lot more ATP than every other class), FG with crossbows and 30 bullets really isn't overpowered. Only thing the 2 gun-dependent classes retain superiority in is SE 4 burn spam, so I’d say it really just makes fG, GT, and fT severely underpowered.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-18 10:44, Pillan wrote:
What’s more damaging than 140% x 6 over 7 hits in 4-5 seconds, with the last 4 hits having a higher modifier?

But, then again, I’m the type of guy who would rather use Renkai than Tornado Break or Dus Robado just because it is much higher damage/time if the combo is uninterrupted. Of course it requires for there to be 5-6 targets in range for that to be good damage, but that’s the same requirement as any high damage technique, and the general reason for the previous arguments was that there aren’t many situations where techs are all that useful.
...
That and what’s so wrong with sucking it up and doing same element or neutral damage until the SE lands? I mean, you’re doing that most of the time you use any SE besides freeze anyway.
...
My main problem with that is why would a WT ever be that far away from the enemies? You could stagger stuff and get those SEs or you could run in with a whip and do a better job staggering stuff (since everything causes enemies to flinch…) while dealing higher damage and more SEs but risk being tossed around. Or you could even run in close and do the same thing with a Gi- technique, giving you higher SE and higher damage if there are more than 4 targets. Or, better yet, skip the whole process and just melee with something stronger than a whip. WT has high HP, DFP, EVP, MST, and Resta for a reason. Use it.


But, yeah, it seems we have two separate definitions of strength. To me, the strongest weapons in the game are the ones with the weakest stats, which deal the highest damage/time (aside from a couple exceptions such as crossbows, slicers, and spears).


You need 6 targets AT ALL which is sort of rare... then they've got to be some sort that will bunch up, yet not particularly dangerous where two or three landing hits early on is going to leave you in a panic for HP. That falls pretty far into the "easier said than done" category. Sure it'll happen and I'd use a whip as a WT in those situations just like everyone else, but the typical situation is nowhere near that rosy. Whips have weak ATP, low damage mods on PA, a non-spectacular number of hits per-target, and limited element selection. Outside of being awesome for whipping the crap out of a ton of low-DFP enemies I've got low expectations of them in relation to other classes of melee weapon.

I'm not terribly interested in DPS on melee skills, my feeling about melee weapons is that you can't crank enough damage out of their batteries as-is so my main priorities are good damage vs PP spent, ease for catching max targets, and not having to make it through a series of weak attacks uninterrupted in order to do the one that makes the whole thing worthwhile. In AOI (with a change in game mechanics + being able to experiment with more skills) I'll probably include more high-burn skills in my palette since the damage advantage is getting magnified while they take a huge bite out of energy consumption.

What's wrong with sucking it up on bad or neutral element is that you don't have to. Any other sort of melee weapon can be any element and still get the same crowd control effects.

My impressions from playing my alt as a WT was that Ra-techs were the best compliment to melee abilities... they're good for reach against dangerous melee opponents and landing offensive/defensive SE's before. I'm used to being able to switch between ranged SE and melee CC for offense with the other hybrid class I play so it just feels natural.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-18 12:49, panzer_unit wrote:
You need 6 targets AT ALL which is sort of rare… Outside of being awesome for whipping the crap out of a ton of low-DFP enemies I've got low expectations of them in relation to other classes of melee weapon.


I’d expect it to be good damage in any situation with more than 4 targets, for the same reason Renkai is still high damage even if you have just 2. But your point still remains valid: there are very few party situations where that will be the case.

Also you’ll really have to redefine that low DFP requirement as base ATP went up a lot and enemy DFP didn’t. Basically they set it so you don’t need ridiculously high element for things like twin daggers to be good compared to axes and balanced that change by giving skills for axes ridiculously high ATP mods. In other words, it seems that they made weapon choice even more arbitrary than it already is.


On 2007-10-18 12:49, panzer_unit wrote:
What's wrong with sucking it up on bad or neutral element is that you don't have to. Any other sort of melee weapon can be any element and still get the same crowd control effects.


When I made that statement, I was assuming you were going for SE rather than damage or melee effect. Obviously if you’re just going for damage, using the opposite element is the best choice, but I’d rather spin the 7 star lightning whip a couple times to shock Vagra and then switch to something with ground element if I’m going for SE.


On 2007-10-18 12:49, panzer_unit wrote:
My impressions from playing my alt as a WT was that Ra-techs were the best compliment to melee abilities... they're good for reach against dangerous melee opponents and landing offensive/defensive SE's before. I'm used to being able to switch between ranged SE and melee CC for offense with the other hybrid class I play so it just feels natural.


I’ll be honest and say the only reason I use a gun as an FG right now is because crossbows do more damage than a basic attack and allow my PP to recharge on the melee weapon while walking toward to the mobs that were blown away by the team’s melee attacks. Given Just Attack, I’d much rather just run in with a melee weapon, shooting while I move in, and basic attack to gain the PP for a single skill use in a couple full combos. The main problem I have with ranged techs is that lack of being able to move in. If anything, I’d rather use a card.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-18 13:53, Pillan wrote:
I’d expect it to be good damage in any situation with more than 4 targets, for the same reason Renkai is still high damage even if you have just 2. But your point still remains valid: there are very few party situations where that will be the case.

Also you’ll really have to redefine that low DFP requirement as base ATP went up a lot and enemy DFP didn’t.
...
When I made that statement, I was assuming you were going for SE rather than damage or melee effect.

Well, one of the BEST situations for whips may be bosses like Onma and the dragons... but they've got melee resistance and/or noticable levels of DFP. For normal enemies hell no it's not noticable.

My point is more along the lines of "why would I sacrifice damage and deal with SE proc rates when every PA has some level of physical crowd control anyway" ... there are probably some fun abuses I haven't thought of yet. I don't like strategies that rely on real-time weapon swapping 'cause I'm on a PS2.

I'd have to hear from someone with AOI, but it seems that part of why high hit-count attacks get much lower damage modifiers is because they recharge more energy during use than Anga Durega (for example)... so while someting like Gravity Break or Anga Durega is absurdly powerful they'll run down a weapon much faster than Spinning Break or Anga Redda (sticking to the first 2 moves)

[PALRAPPYS]

On 2007-10-14 15:39, NIloklives wrote:
yeahbut grundy made a valid point: Skill is still secondary to stats since certain classes and class/race combinations allow you to use your skill to greater extent and cushion for a lack of skill as well. the same is said about fighting games and its a valid argument here as well.

face it: there are alwasy going to be classes/races all around better than others. that doesn't make them more or less fun, just faster at getting the job done. what you consider fun is what makes you pick the classes and races that you do, buut enjoying something does not make your choices ideal for meta game.

The thing is, I believe just the opposite. Stats are secondary to Skill. I care about how a person plays in my party. I don't care if there's a lv100 fF in my party if he can't play his job well. If there's a lv70 fF in my party who's playing his job greatly and a help to the team, I wouldn't care so much about the lv100 in the party (<--- That's stats right there)

So, it sounds like big numbarz almost to a lot of you...

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-18 14:11, panzer_unit wrote:
Well, one of the BEST situations for whips may be bosses like Onma and the dragons... but they've got melee resistance and/or noticable levels of DFP. For normal enemies hell no it's not noticable.


Yeah. I’ll have to test that as soon, but with Ceresa’s previous testimony (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=141833&forum=22&start=210&225#218), I would be surprised if whips weren’t good damage against high DFP enemies.


On 2007-10-18 14:11, panzer_unit wrote:
My point is more along the lines of "why would I sacrifice damage and deal with SE proc rates when every PA has some level of physical crowd control anyway" ... there are probably some fun abuses I haven't thought of yet. I don't like strategies that rely on real-time weapon swapping 'cause I'm on a PS2.


Well, that goes back to the general point of “why would a WT use damage techs at all?”, which was the only reason I brought up using a whip for SE spam instead. You can always just melee and depend on the PA for crowd control while maximizing your damage/time that way.

Honestly, I expect to just use whips for opposite element damage and treat the SE as an extra bonus every once in a while, which is my general strategy even as a ranger. You can talk SE all you want here, but, in actual combat, they’re generally overrated outside of large mobs (which means only freeze, burn, stun, and infection have some use…).


On 2007-10-18 14:11, panzer_unit wrote:
I'd have to hear from someone with AOI, but it seems that part of why high hit-count attacks get much lower damage modifiers is because they recharge more energy during use than Anga Durega (for example)... so while someting like Gravity Break or Anga Durega is absurdly powerful they'll run down a weapon much faster than Spinning Break or Anga Redda (sticking to the first 2 moves)


Only one way to confirm it. We’ll just wait a month and I’ll say told you so if/when it happens.



On 2007-10-18 16:01, PALRAPPYS wrote:
I don't care if there's a lv100 fF in my party if he can't play his job well. If there's a lv70 fF in my party who's playing his job greatly and a help to the team, I wouldn't care so much about the lv100 in the party (<--- That's stats right there)


This is one of those absolute worst case scenario things. The average level 70 fF is going to do a lot less damage than the average level 100 fF, while using the same weapons, PAs, etc. The best level 70 fF is still going to do a lot less damage than the average level 100 fF, using different weapons, PAs, etc. It’s only when you compare the absolute best to a complete idiot that you see skill >> stats.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-18 16:21, Pillan wrote:
Well, that goes back to the general point of “why would a WT use damage techs at all?”, which was the only reason I brought up using a whip for SE spam instead. You can always just melee and depend on the PA for crowd control while maximizing your damage/time that way.


I've said it a bunch of times but I guess it bears repeating: I'd use damage techs to soften things up BEFORE I start trading blows in melee. Whips combine the randomness of proc rates with the range of melee, as a balance for their awesome number of targets rather than an advantage IMO.

If AOI is seriously so broken that melee is the ultimate form of attack in all circumstances, the question is "why play anything except ForteFighter"... debating over which of a WT's abilities has the most value is pointless.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-18 19:16, panzer_unit wrote:
If AOI is seriously so broken that melee is the ultimate form of attack in all circumstances, the question is "why play anything except ForteFighter"... debating over which of a WT's abilities has the most value is pointless.


Actually, this whole conversation has pretty much been an exercise as me trying to solve that puzzle. So far, it seems the SE gain FG and AF have is worth the ATP drop and PT has less melee but EX traps to balance somewhat. AT has their dominance on 31+ support, so they’ll always be good for the team. fG, GT, and fT seem like lost causes outside of solo to me.

The one thing WT has that no other class can do better is that they have the most ATP and highest skill cap with whips, so I’ve been trying to argue to myself that that alone is reason enough for WT to be considered worth playing.

[Nyreal]

Whips are sexy. So, wartechers are going to be the new kinky S&M class? Good thing I've played since before the bandwagon.

[Genoa]

To answer the original question...
Max out Wartecher... then max out Acrofighter, whichever one you like more is the ultimate seski. =P

You know the facts of what you want, you've heard comments towards them, and you've learned the mechanics of both classes. Take them off the lot for a test-drive, when you're done, pick which one felt better for you.
What works best for me might not work best for you.

[SolomonGrundy]

whole bunch o' comments:

Pillian: Twin Mayalee got nerfed to SE 2 max, so you’re better off with the SE 3 DFP down of the second card bullet.

let's hope cards got nerfed too.


Pillian:All AoE techs get their range nerfed (the Gi- series, Megiverse, Regrants and all the support)

I'm not so sure on this one. You've seen the pics and videos of some 31+ techs. I'm thiking specifically of gizonde. looks like the range is larger than 21+ gizonde. so perhaps it is only level 21-30 techs that had a range nerfing?


Panzer:The skill and stat boosts on WT makes it the classe I'm most excited about in AOI, even more than Protranser which got a major improvement on damage but won't play mych differently aside from the major change to elemental laser skills.

meh. WT confuses me now, as does PT. I'm excited about GT, because that job got everything it needed to be top tier (fG competetive).


Panzer:I'm of the opinion that things in PSU work pretty well as-is.

You mean now, or in AoI? As of right now, they suck. There is no reason to play GT, fF's get laughed at, and PTs lack. Parties consist of fTs, FiGs, and fGs - because those jobs work well.

I have no idea if AoI will fix these issues


Panzer:Ra-techs let you try to stagger stuff around with a good chance of landing statuses before it gets a chance to attack.

ra techs are great at level 21+ for thier area of effect on a lot of enemies that are annoying to nail. Jisharga, Olaka, volfu, sendelain (though regrants is the new sendelain killer of choice). The long thick shape of these enemies mean taht melee PAs often cannot snag two, and it can be pp inefficient to attack just one.


pillian: Given that every class except fF can SE spam easily (and fF has a lot more ATP than every other class),

fF does not have 'a lot' more atp than other classes. 12-14% more than the other two top tier melee classes will not even amount to 200 ATP, and in fact, both FiG and fF got +12% to ATP, keeping thier ratio's relatively intact.

I think anyone would agree that level 30 bullets when you have access to crossbows is better than level 20 bullets when you have access to ONLY pistols.

The only thing I see making a difference for fFs is slicers, which should make dealing with anti melee enemies like vanda more doable.


“why would a WT use damage techs at all?”,

as mid level newman WT right now, I can hit 3-4 olaka, 5 times for 500 each time with a level 20 damabarta, and a very low grind lidra. This is done form the relative safety of a flinching tech, and SE3 freeze.

with newman ATP, and 'average' (24-28%)weapons, I can't come close to this kinds of safe, easy damage any other way.

4-6 golormos's with megiverse, 2-4 sendelains with regrants, 4-6 delsaban with damfoie, 3-6 volfu with gidiga, kamatoze gets foie, and the list goes on and on.

Tech damage doe not have to be fast. it can be safe or pp efficient or easy to aim.


Actually, this whole conversation has pretty much been an exercise as me trying to solve that puzzle. So far, it seems the SE gain FG and AF have is worth the ATP drop and PT has less melee but EX traps to balance somewhat. AT has their dominance on 31+ support, so they’ll always be good for the team. fG, GT, and fT seem like lost causes outside of solo to me.

The one thing WT has that no other class can do better is that they have the most ATP and highest skill cap with whips, so I’ve been trying to argue to myself that that alone is reason enough for WT to be considered worth playing.

AF has virus traps, S rank shadoogs and slicers. If S rank shaddogs and slicers prove to be good, then this job will be worthwile.

FiG is broken. Has been from the start, and remains broken.

fG has level 40 bullets for grenade launchers (boss kiler), and pp reduction for crossbows/machine guns. The s rank access alone (rifles especially), is enought to make people choose it. It did lose a step, but it was #1 before

GT is now a worthwhile supporter for anyone who does not want to be a fT. SEs allow for meaningful damage contribution.


PT is all messed up. Losing level 40 skills, is a blow. Level 40 bullets do not get more accurate, so there are ATA issues to deal with. EX traps are neat, as is trap vision - but the restrictions placed on both these abilites does not help.

WT could have been great. Instead it's just good solo. Better DFP than AT, better MST than AF, better HP than either. It's the ultimate defensive job in a game that favors offense. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
let's hope cards got nerfed too.


They don’t. None of the new ults get changed at all as they currently have their AoI stats, which is why they appear overpowered.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I'm not so sure on this one. You've seen the pics and videos of some 31+ techs. I'm thiking specifically of gizonde. looks like the range is larger than 21+ gizonde. so perhaps it is only level 21-30 techs that had a range nerfing?


I believe most of those videos are from offline, and they didn’t change the appearance of the art itself, just the hit location. If you’ve ever used a high level buff or debuff, you know the range is about a GH-4xx length outside of what it shows. I believe all they did was reduce the real range to the actual animation range or even a bit less.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
You mean now, or in AoI? As of right now, they suck. There is no reason to play GT, fF's get laughed at, and PTs lack. Parties consist of fTs, FiGs, and fGs - because those jobs work well.

I have no idea if AoI will fix these issues


Well, my bet now is you’ll see parties consist of ATs, fFs, FGs, AFs, and PTs.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
fF does not have 'a lot' more atp than other classes. 12-14% more than the other two top tier melee classes will not even amount to 200 ATP, and in fact, both FiG and fF got +12% to ATP, keeping thier ratio's relatively intact.

I think anyone would agree that level 30 bullets when you have access to crossbows is better than level 20 bullets when you have access to ONLY pistols.

The only thing I see making a difference for fFs is slicers, which should make dealing with anti melee enemies like vanda more doable.


fF increases from 128% to 150% (168% at 15) and FG increases from 116% to 128% (138% at 15). So fF had a 17% ATP increase while FG only had a 10% increase. So you could always argue being 20% more powerful than the second highest ATP class (along with access to Jabronga) isn’t worth the lack of SE, but it’s very rare to be in situations where SEs or bullet damage makes up for 20% damage right now, and even rarer with instant criticals and slicers.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
4-6 golormos's with megiverse, 2-4 sendelains with regrants, 4-6 delsaban with damfoie, 3-6 volfu with gidiga, kamatoze gets foie, and the list goes on and on.

Tech damage doe not have to be fast. it can be safe or pp efficient or easy to aim.


Whip, whip, whip, whip, whip, Assault Crush/Gravity Break (or, even better, Hikai with an A rank fire Shadoog)… (You could replace the whip with Tornado Break, Renkai, or Dus Robado, depending on the number of targets in range.)

My list goes on and on too. Same problem I had throughout the tech usefulness discussion.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
FiG is broken. Has been from the start, and remains broken.


Now that AF’s speed boost has been proven to apply to skills, AF is all around stronger than FG unless the FG is using double sabers or high percent S twin dagger or twin sabers. FG had a relative nerf making it arguably the worst melee damage of the 3 hunter classes worth playing, but it makes it up with the best SE access (now that SE 3 x 3 hits all large mobs as fast or faster than SE 4). So the only reason it’s unbalanced at this point is because rangers and forces don’t have their own Just Attack system.

I.e., welcome back to PSO.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
fG has level 40 bullets for grenade launchers (boss kiler), and pp reduction for crossbows/machine guns. The s rank access alone (rifles especially), is enought to make people choose it. It did lose a step, but it was #1 before


Who cares about a 400% ATP grenade when you can have a 410% x 1.5 ATP axe? PP reduction is nice, but now all the partial classes (except PT) get a faster recovery rate than the fortes and, even now, it hasn’t stopped people from playing the partials.

Can’t argue with S ranks. That will always pull some people to every class. But it’s more dependent on how cool S rifles look or people who miss Holy Ray than how well the class performs.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
GT is now a worthwhile supporter for anyone who does not want to be a fT. SEs allow for meaningful damage contribution.


GT has good support, great damage pre-Just Attack, and great SE access. The only problem is AT has the same or better SE access to all the non-DoT SEs, higher support, and can melee.


On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
PT is all messed up. Losing level 40 skills, is a blow. Level 40 bullets do not get more accurate, so there are ATA issues to deal with. EX traps are neat, as is trap vision - but the restrictions placed on both these abilites does not help.


PT lost 40 skills so a PT spamming Jabronga wouldn’t be all around better than an FG. It’s just a continuation of the SE for damage trade off you see between fF and FG. fF gets a lot more damage for less SE than FG and FG gets a lot more damage for les SE than PT.

[mll]

WT will remain as useful as its always been. They wont replace any of the classes you mentioned above (fF, FG, AT, AF, PT) they'll just help them all out.
They'll help the protransers with the longbow duties (Onmagoug, Jarbas), help the AT with the keeping everyone alive. Help the figunners and acrofighters out with mellee resistant enemies.
And our melee isn't that bad, after lvl. 20 buffs our ATP is competing with af and fg. It remains to be seen how much the lack of S-ranks will affect us, our ata is an issue i admit.

What I'm basically saying is while we wont be replacing any of the above classes we'll be making all of their lives a lot easier.

[Nyreal]

So, it's the same deal as in PSO. FOmars aren't the end all of combat or support, but they are good as a supplementary class. Makes sense.

[Ceresa]

Whip on High DFP melee resistant enemies (which pretty much means dragons cause what high defense enemies cluster in groups of 5-6...)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/aerawnt/whip.jpg

Human Female L71, AT13, 637 atp + katei/power, Vishi Adak 36% (kubara, 222atp) against S2 De Ragan.

Subtract about 50 per hit if you strike the tail, not recommended.

Good dmg or bad, subjective. 7 hits total, to up to 6 parts each.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-20 00:21, SolomonGrundy wrote:
There is no reason to play GT, fF's get laughed at, and PTs lack. Parties consist of fTs, FiGs, and fGs - because those jobs work well.


That's pretty sad. I'm glad people play to a higher standard on PC/PS2... I've seen all those classes be extremely effective by playing their basic strengths and abilities well.

[Carlo210]

Also, ATs have the same ATP as GT, so it can be argued that ATs are simply superior. Damagewise, GTs use crossbows. However, Whips are arguably more effective at damage dealing due to more targets and having PAs.

Same thing as the slicer versus guns arguement. AFs with slicers are overpowered in a sense because slicers have an enormous amount of accuracy and are very strong (since AF has FiG atp). Not to mention AF has superior stats than any gunner class (+acc from slicers) and, even though they dont get status effects from the slicer, they get strong PAs that hit 5 enemies. Oh, and they have an autoturret that inflicts status effects.
So... yeah. :S

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-21 02:36, panzer_unit wrote:

That's pretty sad. I'm glad people play to a higher standard on PC/PS2... I've seen all those classes be extremely effective by playing their basic strengths and abilities well.



I've seen them played and played well too. But you can't help but hear comments about the ideal set up when it comes to accomplishing feats in certain missions (like getting 80 kills in A rank EX missions)


Well, my bet now is you’ll see parties consist of ATs, fFs, FGs, AFs, and PTs.

you'll still see plenty of fGs. plenty of fTs, and a decent amount of GTs. I think AT will see a lot of traction, but I'm not sure about AF. Giving up spear/sword for bosses may be tough. I don't think you will see many WTs, or PTs. And since this topic is a out WT...

That being said I think AF is a great class. The DoT trap access is neat-o

by the way, whips will get the nerf. You heard it hear first.

[Carlo210]

What do you mean by traction? I think Srank whips are enough of a reason to keep AT popular, and AF will stay popular for it's amazing stats, Srank slicers (gawd), and so forth.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-10-22 15:04, Carlo210 wrote:
What do you mean by traction? I think Srank whips are enough of a reason to keep AT popular, and AF will stay popular for it's amazing stats, Srank slicers (gawd), and so forth.



ATs will be popular. AFs, less popular. I don't think enough folks will be able to deal with the weapon selection, esp. at the S rank level.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-10-22 17:39 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

Ah (by the way, you typo'd "AT less popular"). That's what I suspect too. I do expect AT to be more popular than GT, though.

AF will undoubtedly be popular. However, how much one likes Slicers over other weapons will decide if one stays an AF.

[MrNomad]

Not to mention the fF and FG gets the slicer too, so who knows, each hunter class has their main attraction (fF BIG NUMBARZ, FG more SE and still only class that uses dbl sabrs, and AF with small boost in speed) but each use slicers, so that's a tough one...

[Carlo210]

only A rank slicers. missing out on 5*s of slicers isn't nearly comparable to having a rank slicers. It's not how Sranks are today (having Srank capability in a weapon class means nothing right now). Sranks capability is important.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-10-22 16:59 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

and S rank shadoogs. I think the point is, though, that AFs have got to be good enough to get FiGs, or fFs to switch over.

for FiGs - are virus traps and slighly improved stats worth giving up S rank two handed weapons and double saber for the unknowns (slicer and shadogs?)

for fF - are ATA and EVP/MST worth giving up HP, ATP and DFP?

[Carlo210]

AFs are monsters. Of course many people will switch over. However, they don't have a boss-killer weapon (a heavy, 2 handed weapon) such as a spear or sword or axe. However, slicers are melee weapons that damage at a range and have (from what we've seen) strong PAs, even for a single target. Also, there's a melee-esuqe PA for the slicer that should do good on bosses.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-10-22 20:25 ]</font>

[Pillan]

I’ll never understand why swords and spears are such a big deal when we know a level 70 human AT can spam 250s to the high DFP areas on a level 100+ boss with a whip and lower ATP weapons always have a ridiculously high multiplier skill and/or high number of hits skill to make up for the loss of damage. Why would I worry about Majarra when I can spam 255% x 2 + (guess) 300% x 2 + (guess) 200% x 8 with Assault Crush just as fast on a YC twin saber? They seem a bit overrated to me.

Also don’t underestimate the differences between the Fortes and the partial classes. Right now you’re looking at a 250+ ATP difference between fF and AF, so the extra 6 ranks of slicer just rival the ATP difference. However, the difference will clearly go up a lot by the time you can actually synthesize a 40+% 15 star slicer of every element, so the fF with the grinded 9 star is still much better off in terms of everything except PP. S ranks are more of a balancing issue than making the other hunters better than fF with anything.

Personally, I’ll stick with FG most of the time just because I like crossbows and machineguns more than cards and shadoogs. I’ll probably end up maxing all the partial classes eventually though.


EDIT:

Forgot to add that I'm betting against whips getting nerfed just because WT is the strongest class that can equip them. Their power is nerfed just because the classes with enough ATP to make them as broken as slicers can't use them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-23 11:03 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I’ll never understand why swords and spears are such a big deal when we know a level 70 human AT can spam 250s to the high DFP areas on a level 100+ boss with a whip and lower ATP weapons always have a ridiculously high multiplier skill and/or high number of hits skill to make up for the loss of damage. Why would I worry about Majarra when I can spam 255% x 2 + (guess) 300% x 2 + (guess) 200% x 8 with Assault Crush just as fast on a YC twin saber? They seem a bit overrated to me.

if you think Assualts numbers are big, perhaps you shoulf try daggas or majarra with a decent % (24-28%) 9* spear. Spears are clearly intended to be the melee boss killer. It's not that sabers, or twin sabers are meaningess, but spears eclipse them.

I don't know WTF the intent of swords are. Other than to look completely badass. Tenora 9* ftw.

And when I say people will not go to AF, it's because it's hard to give up things. Like you do not want to give up machine gun with your FiG.

fFs don't want to give up skela, twin ragnus, svaltus. Though I think a AF with a skill save unit has signifiantly higher damage output than a fF in any real combat situation. The ATA, and traps are big wins for the AF.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-23 11:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:
if you think Assualts numbers are big, perhaps you shoulf try daggas or majarra with a decent % (24-28%) 9* spear. Spears are clearly intended to be the melee boss killer. It's not that sabers, or twin sabers are meaningess, but spears eclipse them.


Actually, I saw a few calculations a while ago showing that Assault Crush is slightly more damage/time than Majarra, which is obviously more damage than Daggas. That and Assault Crush and base ATP get buffed while neither of those skills do, giving that skill a huge advantage in 4 weeks. I hate big numbers, that’s why I always stick to things like daggers, twin daggers, machineguns, and twin handguns. The sum of the small numbers always outweighs the sum of the large numbers in the medium run and greatly outweighs the sum in the long run.


On 2007-10-23 11:22, SolomonGrundy wrote:
And when I say people will not go to AF, it's because it's hard to give up things. Like you do not want to give up machine gun with your FiG.

fFs don't want to give up skela, twin ragnus, svaltus. Though I think a AF with a skill save unit has signifiantly higher damage output than a fF in any real combat situation. The ATA, and traps are big wins for the AF.


Well, that depends on the player more than the class itself. Saying “I don’t want to play AF because it doesn’t have a weapon whose damage competes with a spear’s” is totally different from saying “I don’t want to play AF because it can’t use spears and those are one of my favorite weapons.”

And I’d say the AF would win if you’re in a stage with lots of Tengohgs, Junsugun, or Jarba, but I doubt it otherwise. ATA is all but useless as a hunter by the time your skills hit 30 and even more so at 40, aside from the usual low mod skills, axes, and double sabers. Keep in mind that an fF has about the same ATA as an fG once you apply weapons and arts, and an FG has more than that, so an AF will have even more than more than that. That and pumping an extra 20% straight damage into the skill is going to outweigh any hit rate loss and further increasing that with an ATP unit will only increase that further.

…Speaking of ATA, someone please explain to me why the hell slicers, the melee gun, have more ATA than any weapon in the game? Unless they went back to the PSO system of ATA decreasing with range, that alone is extremely overpowered.


EDIT:

As for swords, I’m expecting Tornado Break to be buffed to the point that it beats Dus Robado if there are 4 targets in range (I know the ATP mod on Robado got increased, but if you read the fine print, you’ll realize that change was only applied to the first move, which sucked previously) and Spinning Break to be buffed enough to compete with Daggas. We’ll see when it gets there though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-10-23 11:49 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

My point about whips is that ATs are just as strong, ATP wise, as Guntechers. Whips also have more hits, are quicker, inflict status effects, and have PA moves. They also basically have the same 'effective' range as crossbows. So, basically, Whips > Crossbows coverts to ATs > GTs.

[panzer_unit]

Except Crossbows are just one weapon. GT's get laser cannons... 220% damage, SE3, stagger-everything-you-hit laser cannons. I don't see AT's rifle, bow, or mechgun anywhere either.

EDIT: I'll take OMG BIG NUMBERS for damage. I'm doing Gravity Break damage that matches what a whip does for AOI characters, 1750 x 6 = 250 x 42 and dumping it all into one or two targets too.

Games have been using machinegunning little hits for max damage for so long... it's really not a secret that's usually the best way to go. I'm actually impressed to see the big-hitter moves keep up.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-23 13:00 ]</font>

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-10-23 11:49, Carlo210 wrote:
My point about whips is that ATs are just as strong, ATP wise, as Guntechers. Whips also have more hits, are quicker, inflict status effects, and have PA moves. They also basically have the same 'effective' range as crossbows. So, basically, Whips > Crossbows coverts to ATs > GTs.



I don't think you can really compare the entirety of two classes based on who can proc SEs faster. Acrotecher and Guntecher play very differently and SEs are not (or certainly don't have to be) the only strength of each class.

I see a lot of strange class comparisons floating around and if I've noticed one similarity between all of them, it's that these debates tend to turn into "well who has more ATP they win". Which is probably why I see more hatred of Guntechers than any other class. No, they're not going to stand out above the rest in any one aspect (unless I think of some way to abuse our S-rank Crossbow exclusivity....). But remember that their level 30 Support technics can make them as strong as a Fortegunner solo (a Resta wand translates into a hell of a lot of Mates), and they can back up any other class in the game except Fortefighter. Versatility is all too overlooked in this game.

I think the same can be said in terms of Wartecher. Sure, Acrofighter beats the pants off of them in terms of stats and S-rank selection. But a Wartecher can support too, and can use effects of technics to supplement their melee ability. There's having the ability to do one thing really well, and there's having the ability to do a lot of things well or fairly well. Just a matter of choice.

[panzer_unit]

Typheros, you've been around the block on PSOW and should know the drill by now: versatility and tactics are for morons. You pick the class that's strongest when you point the right direction and hit square or triangle with your favorite weapon a lot, they're better at EVERYTHING.

[SolomonGrundy]

Actually, I saw a few calculations a while ago showing that Assault Crush is slightly more damage/time than Majarra, which is obviously more damage than Daggas.

In the expansion, as I understand it, element percent is based of weapon ATP, not total ATP. This means weapons with a higher base will tend to increase in damage.


That and Assault Crush and base ATP get buffed while neither of those skills do, giving that skill a huge advantage in 4 weeks.

Base ATP is only to offset the elemental nerf, I believe (as in 'i suspect')


I hate big numbers, that’s why I always stick to things like daggers, twin daggers, machineguns, and twin handguns. The sum of the small numbers always outweighs the sum of the large numbers in the medium run and greatly outweighs the sum in the long run.

The right tool for he job, is what I say. Assualt crush isn't great for bosses imo. Especially not per pp spent. I love twin daggers too, and machine guns - but obviously you don't see gunners using machine guns on bosses.




Well, that depends on the player more than the class itself. Saying “I don’t want to play AF because it doesn’t have a weapon whose damage competes with a spear’s” is totally different from saying “I don’t want to play AF because it can’t use spears and those are one of my favorite weapons.”

it's both. Perception that spears cause more damage (a general perception I agree with), and a preference for S rank types that lead a player to select the class in the first place.


And I’d say the AF would win if you’re in a stage with lots of Tengohgs, Junsugun, or Jarba, but I doubt it otherwise.

Any stage with high HP enemies. (polhavara, dru gora, kamatoze bill de vears, svaltus). Fire traps take off 20% HP in 10 seconds, and can it up to 3 enemies. there is no way to compete with that as a fF. And ask yourself...how many stages without those types of enemies are there?


ATA is all but useless as a hunter by the time your skills hit 30 and even more so at 40, aside from the usual low mod skills, axes, and double sabers.

but those are pretty significant. I draw PLENTY of zeros with yo-yo daggers on svaltus (76% mod). And daggers are an accurate weapon.


Keep in mind that an fF has about the same ATA as an fG once you apply weapons and arts, and an FG has more than that,

nah, I did the math. fF has about the same ATA as a GT, but not a fG, once you throw a zodiaride in.



so an AF will have even more than more than that. That and pumping an extra 20% straight damage into the skill is going to outweigh any hit rate loss and further increasing that with an ATP unit will only increase that further.

fF, FG, and AF all have the same skill level (40). 20% damage will have to come from weapon, and base ATP.




As for swords, I’m expecting Tornado Break to be buffed to the point that it beats Dus Robado if there are 4 targets in range (I know the ATP mod on Robado got increased, but if you read the fine print, you’ll realize that change was only applied to the first move, which sucked previously) and Spinning Break to be buffed enough to compete with Daggas. We’ll see when it gets there though.

time will tell. it's accuracy mod got bumped too to 85%, making this a top notch skill considering the flinch. I think renkai's days are numbered.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Any stage with high HP enemies. (polhavara, dru gora, kamatoze bill de vears, svaltus). Fire traps take off 20% HP in 10 seconds, and can it up to 3 enemies. there is no way to compete with that as a fF. And ask yourself...how many stages without those types of enemies are there?


Ridiculous. A fortefighter who CAN'T walk all over tick damage from a trap against one target is pretty gimp.

2 Gol Dolvas on fire = 6400 HP/2 sec = 3200/sec
Me doing Gravity Break = ~1750 x 2/move = 3500/sec

... you're probably not going to outdamage the trap and the guy who dropped it also spamming PA's.

Then again, Anga Jabroga is going to do something like 2000x10 per move... I'm guessing the wind-up is only 3 seconds or so as well. It's about as long as a full PA.

[SolomonGrundy]

... you're probably not going to outdamage the trap and the guy who dropped it also spamming PA's.

he get's it!

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
In the expansion, as I understand it, element percent is based of weapon ATP, not total ATP. This means weapons with a higher base will tend to increase in damage.


That and Assault Crush and base ATP get buffed while neither of those skills do, giving that skill a huge advantage in 4 weeks.

Base ATP is only to offset the elemental nerf, I believe (as in 'i suspect')


I proved that one’s not true by comparing Ceresa’s Gravity Strike damage to my own, as we had basically the same stats and dealt basically the same damage pre-Just Attack. That suggests to me that 50% was completely unchanged and they did something to decrease the deviation between 10% and 50%. If it was changed so element percent only applied to weapon ATP, her Gravity Strike damage would be significantly less.

So it was just a straight increase so that every class except fT can kill things faster. I believe they also increased enemy ATP vastly (or did something to nerf armor percents) to offset this change in mechanics. From what I’ve heard so far, you kill things faster and get killed faster.


On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
The right tool for he job, is what I say. Assualt crush isn't great for bosses imo. Especially not per pp spent. I love twin daggers too, and machine guns - but obviously you don't see gunners using machine guns on bosses.


There’s generally more than one right tool for the job. For instance, a ranger can always choose between rifles and twin handguns on bosses. Twin handguns deal more damage and rifles have more range. On everything except Maggas, I find the extra damage outweighs the extra range.

However, melee weapons aren’t nearly as niche-specific as guns and you can easily play “one size fits all” (read as Majarra everything) and be fine. The specificity we pretend exists here really becomes pretty arbitrary in a party. Regardless of what weapon you choose, your output is close enough for no one to care, unless you’re using a sword. So if I choose to use Hikai or Assault Crush instead, I’m getting a basically equal output, since I don’t have to deal with high DFP compared to my AoI-ATP nor any half melee resistances, unlike the ranged resistance on every area of the boss except one.


On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Any stage with high HP enemies. (polhavara, dru gora, kamatoze bill de vears, svaltus). Fire traps take off 20% HP in 10 seconds, and can it up to 3 enemies. there is no way to compete with that as a fF. And ask yourself...how many stages without those types of enemies are there?


What Panzer said, plus Just Attack. Add in the time you gained from killing the medium and small mobs that make up 95% of the stage faster than the AF to easily offset the slower killing of the large mob. Killing 10 enemies slower isn’t going to outweigh killing the other 100 much faster.


On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
but those are pretty significant. I draw PLENTY of zeros with yo-yo daggers on svaltus (76% mod). And daggers are an accurate weapon.


Svaltus has twice the EVP of normal mobs. Even an fG with fT Zodial isn’t getting more than 70% accuracy on those. Using anything with less than an 85% mod as any hunter against an Svaltus is just asking for zeroes. I wouldn’t complain about being unable to hit the enemy no one can hit with a low ATA mod skill.


On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
nah, I did the math. fF has about the same ATA as a GT, but not a fG, once you throw a zodiaride in.


Are you sure you’re sure about that? Too lazy to dig up and calculate the numbers right here, so I won’t argue it right now.


On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
fF, FG, and AF all have the same skill level (40). 20% damage will have to come from weapon, and base ATP.


20% is the ATP difference between fF and FG at class level 15. That means the damage difference will most likely be somewhere between 10 and 20%, depending on the weapon you use. I’d estimate the average around 15%, as nothing adds as much as base ATP anymore.


On 2007-10-23 13:14, SolomonGrundy wrote:
time will tell. it's accuracy mod got bumped too to 85%, making this a top notch skill considering the flinch. I think renkai's days are numbered.


Good luck with that one. I’ll continue betting against it.

[Carlo210]

On 2007-10-23 12:12, Typheros wrote:

On 2007-10-23 11:49, Carlo210 wrote:
My point about whips is that ATs are just as strong, ATP wise, as Guntechers. Whips also have more hits, are quicker, inflict status effects, and have PA moves. They also basically have the same 'effective' range as crossbows. So, basically, Whips > Crossbows coverts to ATs > GTs.



I don't think you can really compare the entirety of two classes based on who can proc SEs faster. Acrotecher and Guntecher play very differently and SEs are not (or certainly don't have to be) the only strength of each class.

I see a lot of strange class comparisons floating around and if I've noticed one similarity between all of them, it's that these debates tend to turn into "well who has more ATP they win". Which is probably why I see more hatred of Guntechers than any other class. No, they're not going to stand out above the rest in any one aspect (unless I think of some way to abuse our S-rank Crossbow exclusivity....). But remember that their level 30 Support technics can make them as strong as a Fortegunner solo (a Resta wand translates into a hell of a lot of Mates), and they can back up any other class in the game except Fortefighter. Versatility is all too overlooked in this game.

I think the same can be said in terms of Wartecher. Sure, Acrofighter beats the pants off of them in terms of stats and S-rank selection. But a Wartecher can support too, and can use effects of technics to supplement their melee ability. There's having the ability to do one thing really well, and there's having the ability to do a lot of things well or fairly well. Just a matter of choice.


I was simply comparing GT and AT, which both have around the same balance of support and offense. AT is better at support and, since they have the same ATP, they're, if anything, on the same playing field as GT when it comes to offense.
GT does have things like laser cannons, and AT get good offensive tech usage. They are different classes with slightly different playstyles, but their uses are more or less similar.
So, what I said is that AT, having the same ATP as guntecher and better support and TP are probably in a better position to do the kind of job a GT/AT/etc would do.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-23 14:23, SolomonGrundy wrote:

... you're probably not going to outdamage the trap and the guy who dropped it also spamming PA's.

he get's it!



Oops I left that sentence unfinished. You can of course only stack one DOT status at a time. So more fF's = more damage in a way that piling on more on any fighter who's traded power for status support doesn't.

Also I'm pretty sure Jabroga with JA would safely blow the doors off of pretty much everyone, 2000/location is of course the pre-AOI damage I've seen. As an additional upside it's actually EASIER to use that PA than most since you can set up outside most creatures' attack range.

[SolomonGrundy]

Jabroga would have to hit 2 polhavs minimus to make it worthwhile, and MANY mone bils, tengohs, etc.

it's not practical for soloing either. and really, the set up time means yuo'd have to run away after it is used once, to re-set it up.

as soon as you talk about tengoh/jusugun/jarba the AF really oulls away from fF. level 30 twins is 350x2, and fast

[panzer_unit]

You ought to be able to beat that with Gravity Break, Spinning Strike, or Assault Crush... depending on my sword I do like 850x2 to half-guard targets with Grav Break and it's not the world's slowest PA or anything.

Of course when AF comes along you'll also see Just Attacks (though you have to miss a beat doing regular swings between PA moves, Spinning Strike would probably be better than Grav Break) ... the other single-target PA moves get huge boosts too. If memory serves, Bogga Robado, Renzan Seiden-ga, and Assault Crush are all in the mid 200%'s.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-24 09:43 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

AF gets Assualt crush, and spinning strike. So they can use Traps AND these moves. THere is no real debate. DoT traps + skill PAs >> just skill PAs.

[Pillan]

On 2007-10-24 14:06, SolomonGrundy wrote:
AF gets Assualt crush, and spinning strike. So they can use Traps AND these moves. THere is no real debate. DoT traps + skill PAs >> just skill PAs.



On 2007-10-23 15:52, Pillan wrote:
Add in the time you gained from killing the medium and small mobs that make up 95% of the stage faster than the AF to easily offset the slower killing of the large mob. Killing 10 enemies slower isn’t going to outweigh killing the other 100 much faster.


That’s the problem I have with that statement. Burning enemies for 350 every 2 seconds isn’t much when you’re spamming 1000+ every half second and the fF is spamming nearly 20% more than that. Only place I can see AF having a clear advantage is the Tengohg hell maps of Demons from Above (did they remove those?).

I wouldn’t give up on fF quite yet.

[panzer_unit]

I'd bet against that, actually. AF's probably going to need those traps just to keep up with Fortefighter's 40% ATP mod advantage, high-power weapon classes like Sword, and S-ranks in most of those weapons that are dealing the extra output. All those hundreds-of-ATP differences are multiplied by two or more, and by half again, and by element. Not just against large monsters but against everything.

AF's got what to compete with that? 5 Burn G traps. Virus adds virtually nothing to damage output in PSU, let alone with the screaming melee damage that's coming in the expansion.