AotI-XBox 360: Protranser Pride!

[GeekRuler]

Due to the fact that Protransers will totally own everything else in the game I believe this calls for some well deserved "Protranser Pride!"

In AoI Protranser is one of the few classes that isn't getting nerfed innstead we will be "freakin' awesome" as some might say.

We will be able to use all the weapons we have now as S ranks, the EX Traps (exclusively), stat bonuses (much needed) in ATP DFP and such (for human PT's the ATP almost doubles), Bullets will go up to 40 while the Skills stay at 30 (neglectable)

So why not celebrate with "Protranser Pride!"

[omegapirate2k]

All classes are getting major stat boosts, actually http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[GeekRuler]

But Protransers actaully have a decent amount of ATP now compared to the 525 I have as a Female Human PT 10 Lv 100

The projected stat for Human male Pt is about 1053 or something making the female stat close enough to that.

Quite frankly I'm still esctatic http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Rizen]

POWER TO THE PROTRANSERS! (http://protranser.youaremighty.com/)

[mizukage]

Protranser Pride.. Its my first time hearing it.

[Anduril]

Since I'm only a part-time Protranser, I will give a very small cheer....W00T!

[Carlo210]

Fortegunners are still stronger than you, but at least you guys aren't AS weak as you used to be. Of course, every other melee-er is still stronger.

[Remedy]

The shame of it, IMO, is that more people will flock to PT, diluting the population and introducing a lot of bad PTs.

A good PT is an amazing asset to a team. A bad PT, on the other hand... =>.>=;

[landman]

I will first admire my 3000 HP as a fortefighter then switch back to protraser lol

[GeekRuler]

It won't be the last when the update is out. :3
I'll make sure of it!!

[Zarode]

Eh, Pootransers are still Pootransers. Ex traps don't help them THAT much, they are pretty weak actually. But whatever makes you Pootransers happy. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[GeekRuler]

I will admire my 2700 HP as a Human PT and laugh at all who think PT's have low HP Hahahahahahhahaha!

[HFlowen]

On 2007-11-19 11:11, Remedy wrote:
The shame of it, IMO, is that more people will flock to PT, diluting the population and introducing a lot of bad PTs.

A good PT is an amazing asset to a team. A bad PT, on the other hand... =>.>=;

This.

[Carlo210]

Yes, protransers are still the least powerful melee-ers. 120% ATP modifier compared to 137+% ATP modifier for Acrofighter and Fighgunner, and 167% ATP modifier for Fortefighter. And Protransers are capped at level 30 skills.
Of course, you guys have guns, but fortegunners are gonna do that better than you anyways and fighgunners are gonna do better and faster damage with their smaller guns.
Not to mention you guys have the acc of a fortefighter without the attack power to balance out the difference.
And Ex traps? Doing 200 damage per tick to a group of mobs at level 110 is really weak compared to almost any JA (or even not JA) photon art.
But protransers aren't meant to be powerhouses, they're supposed to be the guys who can use all the heavy weapons, but are weaker at using them then everyone else.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-19 11:19 ]</font>

[Alamar]

PROTRANSER POWER!!! WOOT!!!

[GeekRuler]

All I can say is that I don't believe humans whould be anything else other than a Protranser. But my worry is what Remedy said there will be plenty of bad PT wannabees
Good thing I'm not http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Rizen]

On 2007-11-19 11:09, mizukage wrote:
Protranser Pride.. Its my first time hearing it.
I guess you weren't around when me, AC9, and panzer_unit was pumping up Protranser pride.

And Zarode, its a shame you must try to degrade greatness with petty names. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[biggabertha]

What exactly defines a good Protranser?

One that has extensive knowledge of the map to use traps effectively throughout the mission? One that can break ranks of enemies alongside the more powerful fighters? One that can pin down groups of enemies with the gunners? One that can stay back and protect the caster? One that can partially fill the shoes of a disconnected fighter/gunner to keep the team flowing?

[Rizen]

On 2007-11-19 12:03, biggabertha wrote:
What exactly defines a good Protranser?

One that has extensive knowledge of the map to use traps effectively throughout the mission? One that can break ranks of enemies alongside the more powerful fighters? One that can pin down groups of enemies with the gunners? One that can stay back and protect the caster? One that can partially fill the shoes of a disconnected fighter/gunner to keep the team flowing?


Being able to use all of that which is available to you to effective deal with any situation and support your party. This means being able to combining melee and ranged together to keep enemies at bay while using traps when needed. A good Protranser does not spam traps. Its a sad fact that many people call bad Protranser good because they throw down traps repeatedly and ineffectively.

[Carlo210]

Anyone can do those things...
Fighgunner, fortegunner, and acrofighter can do the fighter/gunner part with more power.
You can break ranks alongside the most powerful fighters, but a fortefighter is still gonna have 500+ more atp than you.
If you like the weapon selection, fine, but they aren't pwoerful by any means.

[Dragwind]

Sounds like uh....a bit TOO much pride http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But yes, woot for PT's. Just hope people learn to actually play the class WELL instead of just abusing the same PA over and over.

[Rizen]

On 2007-11-19 12:07, Carlo210 wrote:
Anyone can do those things...
Fighgunner, fortegunner, and acrofighter can do the fighter/gunner part with more power.
You can break ranks alongside the most powerful fighters, but a fortefighter is still gonna have 500+ more atp than you.
If you like the weapon selection, fine, but they aren't pwoerful by any means.


Yes, but pre-AoI pre-easymissiongoing Protransers actually had to work hard to get what they wanted. Remember, Protransers were limited to A ranks stuff and most of which was not available until Class level 7 or so.

[Carlo210]

Im referring to level 15 protransers, though, who will probably feel the same way after they reach level 15 and get bummed out on how they have 500+ less atp than a fighter and 300 less atp than a fighter hybrid. Also, fortegunners can melee pretty well now, making the 'melee + gun' advantage of protranser not such a big deal, especially since protranser's meleeing abilities are stunted due to level 30 skills (and did I mention the low atp?).

[Rizen]

Well, I can say all the PTs that I know don't care if they aren't on par with any classes. It just seems to be those who just jumped into the class or use them as an alternative who have the problem. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-11-19 12:21, Carlo210 wrote:
Im referring to level 15 protransers, though, who will probably feel the same way after they reach level 15 and get bummed out on how they have 500+ less atp than a fighter and 300 less atp than a fighter hybrid. Also, fortegunners can melee pretty well now, making the 'melee + gun' advantage of protranser not such a big deal, especially since protranser's meleeing abilities are stunted due to level 30 skills (and did I mention the low atp?).


Why would I be bummed out by being a little less strong than other hybrid fighters? I was awesome even when I was a LOT less strong than other hybrid fighters last week, because I know how I can contribute best to my team in whatever situation.

PT is a really good role now. Other hybrid fighters are primarily fighters, while we're primarily gun support (lasers & shotguns for small targets, grenades for big ones, bows for bosses) ... they're not competing with what we do at all.

We share our main job with Fortegunners, they've got bullet save and slightly higher ranged damage while we have stronger melee for those times where raw number output matters.

[Carlo210]

Well, you get level 30 skills while Fortegunner gets level 20 skills, but they have a higher base atp than you so your melee damage is basically the same.

[Jao]

im sure there caped out pas will make a difference

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-11-19 13:34, Carlo210 wrote:
Well, you get level 30 skills while Fortegunner gets level 20 skills, but they have a higher base atp than you so your melee damage is basically the same.


No, Fortegunner isn't going to be anywhere close.

PT has S-rank weapons with better stats so Fortegunner's edge in ATP isn't as big as it is on paper.
PT has an extra 10 levels of skill. The extra % applies to the weapon as well as base stats, making even a 10% improvement worth more than the lead in base stats that Fortegunner has.
PT has access to more melee weapons, with much higher ATP and/or PA's with much higher ATP modifiers.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-11-19 13:51 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

Yes, so Protransers will be slightly better with melee weapons... than a gunner. And loads worse with melee weapons than a fighter class, even another hybrid. Protransers will be worse with guns than a fortegunner, but makes up for it by having melee abilities (low atp and capped at level 30).
If you think that's an even tradeoff, to have low output with both guns and weapons, while having the accuracy of a fortefighter and abysmal defensive stats (though they don't mean THAT much), then that's fine. I just don't see how having low atp for your 'heavy' meleeing and low atp + low ata for your 'heavy' gunning is a good tradeoff. There are hybrids that do the melee+gunning mix better and more efficiently than protransers. If it's the weapon selection you're after, then that's cool, but that doesn't make the class better than other hybrids, let alone the forte classes. I don't find being weak at both gunning and melee fun, and being able to do both just for the hell of it doesn't make up for it. For some, it does, so power to you.

[SStrikerR]

whats a pansytranser????


nah jk one of my alts is a FG/PT

[Schubalts]

On 2007-11-19 14:53, Ryan113 wrote:
whats a pansytranser????


nah jk one of my alts is a FG/PT



Pfft, the correct term is Protranny.

[guise709]

but we can use grenade launchers and bow so there

[Carlo210]

And that makes up for the abysmal atp? Dunno if you've noticed, but high ATP weapons are balanced by being very slow. Those who say Protranser's low (LOW) atp is evened out by the high-atp weapons is delusional. Sense much?

[Rayokarna]

On 2007-11-19 14:58, Carlo210 wrote:
And that makes up for the abysmal atp? Dunno if you've noticed, but high ATP weapons are balanced by being very slow. Those who say Protranser's low (LOW) atp is evened out by the high-atp weapons is delusional. Sense much?



I must ask, have you even played the class before to its fullest?

[TUSCAN]

I don't think many people understand exactly what a protranser is. I think it's obvious that it's a class meant for end-game players who are bored and want a challenge. I really don't think the class is meant to be played by low level characters.

the requirements suggest that it was designed around players who have been alot of other classes and are already leveled, and the weapon selection suggests it was designed around players who have played more than one forte class and offers players unique strategy options compared to many other classes.

yeah, protransers are weak and the average person playing the class will really showcase that weakness. this game is also very easy and the majority of people on earth are very basic. 90% of the gameplay that goes on in this game could be covered by one class with 10 weapons. but sega realizes that there are strange folk out there who wander off the beaten path, hence protranser. the class is basically about helping out others so they can really shine. it really shouldn't be hard to figure out, but people just don't see it. most people look at this game like it's a one night stand, some look at it like it's a relationship. some people are in it through think and thin, and some people just wanna fuck. sense much?

[Carlo210]

While other classes are going to be molesting enemies with JA and so forth, Protranser's low atp won't be of much service. Protranser serves as a class with variety, but to say it's a powerful class is comparing kiwis to mangos.
If variety is your thing, then you may like Protranser or a hybrid that is more powerful than protranser, but has less weapons.

Good post tuscan, but you make it sound like you're arguing against me. You share the same opinion as I. Some people are making it sound like it's blasphemous to say that protranser is weak. I'm saying people should awknowledge that it's still weak and take it for what it truly is.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-19 15:45 ]</font>

[Emma_Frostfan]

I just got my Human Female to lvl 100 and shes Protransfer!!Woot WOOT.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

I got Protranser to 10 on my newman female a couple months ago. It was pretty interesting doing True Darkness S with it.

[Rizen]

On 2007-11-19 15:38, Carlo210 wrote:
Good post tuscan, but you make it sound like you're arguing against me. You share the same opinion as I. Some people are making it sound like it's blasphemous to say that protranser is weak. I'm saying people should awknowledge that it's still weak and take it for what it truly is.
I will say that I will awknowledge that Protranser is "weak" in the fact that it as not as strong as other classes, but I will not say that it is "weak" as a class.

[DesertGunner]

LOL! You just wait until I'm a Gun Master!

Cast ForteGunners will always be better than Human Protransers. Just wait until the Killer Elite is released, which only Casts can use. Oh, what's that? Protransers can't use rifles? My bad.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DesertGunner on 2007-11-19 16:36 ]</font>

[xExFireFox]

On 2007-11-19 16:35, DesertGunner wrote:
LOL! You just wait until I'm a Gun Master!

Cast ForteGunners will always be better than Human Protransers. Just wait until the Killer Elite is released, which only Casts can use. Oh, what's that? Protransers can't use rifles? My bad.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DesertGunner on 2007-11-19 16:36 ]</font>

just wait tell new weps like axes come out oh wait thats right fortegunners cant uses axes

[DesertGunner]

Why the hell would I wanna use an axe? Axes are slow and you can't even hit some of the bosses half the time because they're in the air.

[Rizen]

Tell that to the Jabroni users. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Carlo210]

Jabroni... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[GeekRuler]

I hate it when people base the "awesomeness" of a class on one or two weapons they can use... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

There are more than one type of weapon for a reason you know... >.>

[February]

On 2007-11-19 10:58, Rizen wrote:
POWER TO THE PROTRANSERS! (http://protranser.youaremighty.com/)



Hehe, I knew you'd jump all over this.

[Teh_pozzum]

Umm... I have a question because I'm debating if this would work... any protransers out the spam charm? Does it become even more of a useful tool? because really I love my charm and it'd suck if I was in a worse situation as a protranser then a fortegunner... (because curently I use a mg dagger combo when everything is charmed and protranser has neither of those...)

[xExFireFox]

On 2007-11-19 16:54, DesertGunner wrote:
Why the hell would I wanna use an axe? Axes are slow and you can't even hit some of the bosses half the time because they're in the air.


never said u wanted to u said a wep we cant use so i said a wep they cant use



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: xExFireFox on 2007-11-19 17:20 ]</font>

[GeekRuler]

If I knew what a charm was or how to spam it and whether it gets better I would tell you but rght now I'm totally at a loss... ><

Edit: If you mean Barada Chamga I never liked it but I think as a Protranser its not that useful whereas a Fortegunner or a Guntecher could use it better thats just me though

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GeekRuler on 2007-11-19 17:25 ]</font>

[Teh_pozzum]

barada chamga (http://www.pso-world.com/items/psu/12/1294/barada_chamga/) it's a ult shotgun PA. (Protransers have S shottys right?) It makes it so any monster that is charmed (pink heats floating all around them) only attack them. (unless someone gets in the way of course really they only aim for you) It's only 25 frags and I personally love it and it's always the weapon I have out... unless it doesn't really work for the creature (I use my grenade launcher on all the big monsters)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teh_pozzum on 2007-11-19 17:31 ]</font>

[Darkly]

Carlo210, comparing protransers to a specific class is pointless.

e.g. i walk into a party as a PT, they are doing a mission which has a flying boss, and a fair few flying enemies. - the party consists of fortegunners. - in this situation you can go all out melee, doing more dps than the gunners, being perfectly supported by the gunners. A mob of flying enemies appear, the PT can now use range as melee is not needed. They get to the boss and its omagoug, you quickly shoot him down and then proceed to use jabroga etc.

A PT may not excel a specific class in a specific situation, but they will excel where the other class is weak. stats aside, they have a weapon for every situation - doesn't that make them a unique class that is effective?

[Jao]

PTs help out in speed runs

[blkbeast]

On 2007-11-19 10:43, GeekRuler wrote:
Due to the fact that Protransers will totally own everything else in the game I believe this calls for some well deserved "Protranser Pride!"

In AoI Protranser is one of the few classes that isn't getting nerfed innstead we will be "freakin' awesome" as some might say.

We will be able to use all the weapons we have now as S ranks, the EX Traps (exclusively), stat bonuses (much needed) in ATP DFP and such (for human PT's the ATP almost doubles), Bullets will go up to 40 while the Skills stay at 30 (neglectable)

So why not celebrate with "Protranser Pride!"


all i know is that on the 360 this guy named TOASTA male beast will be the BEST protranser any bets im happy for him cool kid got whut he earned

[Jao]

so in that quote some classes are being nerfed?

[Schubalts]

Not really, no. Unless you count not getting a huge boost as a nerf.

[GeekRuler]

I believe Fortegunners and CASTS in general are nerfed don't call me out on that one though.
What is for sure is that all the elements on weapons will mean less and ATP will be raised on classes to compensate Protransers in particular catch up in ATP finally reaching 1000+ for human Protransers http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Carlo210]

I'm just saying that the benefits of a protranser to take down bullet resistant mobs and melee resistant mobs is outdone by other classes. A fortefighter can do amazing against melee resistant mobs due to their skyrocketed atp, a fortegunner can melee bullet resistant mobs effectively, and acrofighter and fighgunners can use guns and melee weapons fantastically.
If you say the protranser's benefit is being able to deal with any type of mob and situation, you're acting as if protranser is the only hybrid class in the game. I'm saying that, out of all the melee/gunner hybrids, protranser is the weakest.

I'm not saying protranser is useless or protranser is garbage, but it doesn't excel in multiple scenarios better than other classes. It uses melee weapons and ranged weapons. So do other classes. However, protranser has way less atp. That's as simple as I can put it. Saying individual weapons makes protranser useful is not my point - it's less effective. If you're saying shooting the wings of an onmagoug and then meleeing it for big damage can only be done by a protranser, then you're being delusional. I'm sure you didn't mean they are the 'only' ones who can do it, but, if anything, you're making it sound like they're better at those kinds of situations than everyone else.
Well guess what? Fighgunners and acrofighters can do the same thing as they both have dual pistols and pack much more of a punch with their melee skills. Heck, so many classes are able to use guns and weapons both effectively that giving up so much power in order to use guns and melee weapons doesn't make too much sense in protranser's case.

Like a previous poster said, Protranser is moreso a weak class with weapon versatility, but it's actual strengths are hardly existant. If you like protranser, then that's cool, just don't bash someone or try to prove them wrong when they say protranser is pretty weak and deals with multiple situations worse than other classes.

I'm not elitist as I don't care much for stats or race/class combinations and the like, but protransers are most obviously a weak class that isn't experienced for its effectiveness. They have way less ATP than other melee/gunner hybrids, are much worse with guns than any gunner and are much worse with melee weapons than any meleer. The fact that they can 'do both' is not unique to protranser, but their engineer-esque palette is. That's about it.

[biggabertha]

Who else likes seeing a flaming lava pit on the ground? What about being the only job so far that has the fewest weapon selection (just 10 compared to everyone else's) but has them all at S rank?

Sure, statistically, Protransers ARE weak. We're such an end game type of job that it almost feels like our first few levels are MEANT to be rushed through otherwise we seriously cripple the team. I can't count the amount of times during 1 Up that I thought to myself that I'd be benefitting the team more if I were a Fighgunner or a Fortefighter just because I was spamming Dus Majillion like there was nothing else to use but neither of those classes can use Virus traps, neither can sit in the middle of the boss stage and still hit the boss wherever it flies and neither of them can safely pin down those annoying Vanda Merhas that just happen to always fling their Diga at you at EXACTLY Grenade Launcher distance.

After biting into Agtarides and Zodiarides though, I felt a little better and reminded myself that this is just a game, not some Olympic Sport where we HAVE to win with the best otherwise we don't get something special.

Has anyone else felt that the new EX traps might be made by Kubara? Sometimes they don't go off properly and it feels like they were a dud... Is it because I didn't let it fully load on my PS2 or is it just some incompatibility with vanilla PSU and will be resolved in the expansion?

[Elaniel]

Being a PT, I see us as being Support Fighters, we may not do the best damage, but status effects are really our things as well. Whether it's using traps, bows, or shotguns, we do have a status effect boost. My friends used to comment on Labs that the last room with Jarbas is so much easier with them beign virused with G traps then without.

PT's are: Backrow fighters, sometimes front line damage with swords, spears, etc, and a good status effect-or (is that a word? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif)

And I do smile when I play with some of my friends at level 100 as well and my bow is technically doing as much damage as them, if not more http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

It's just a unique class that's enjoyable to play IMO. I get to not just stand back and fire guns, or run in and slash things, I get to use traps, which I enjoy.

PT's will be laughing when they see a trap ahead on NEudaiz and everyone else is blind to it, and runs straight into it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif But that must just be my sick mind working there http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Rizen]

Two things:

Protranser is moreso a weak class with weapon versatility, but it's actual strengths are hardly existant.
They have way less ATP than other melee/gunner hybrids, are much worse with guns than any gunner and are much worse with melee weapons than any meleer.
Again, I would never call PT a "weak" class. Yes, stats wise they are "weak", but I can tell you Protransers are on par with everyone else. Just because they have lower stats doesn't mean they are "much worse" with melee or ranged weapons. This only means we get them later and we do less damage, which that damage is very easily overlooked. Their versatility is their strength. People may not value crowd control or stats effects much anymore, but thats where we shine.

I thinking you are only looking at number output here when you are looking at PT class like many people do.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-11-19 18:43, Carlo210 wrote:
a fortegunner can melee bullet resistant mobs effectively
...
It uses melee weapons and ranged weapons. So do other classes. However, protranser has way less atp. That's as simple as I can put it. Saying individual weapons makes protranser useful is not my point - it's less effective.


Fortegunner isn't even on the map for melee damage compared to Protranser. You pwn yourself every time you bring that argument up. Being a lower tier for melee damage than the lv40 PA classes is a given, but acting like Fortegunner comes close for striking damage is as ridiculous as saying that PT's as good as Fighgunner or AF.

On that subject, you say Acrofighter and Fighgunner are okay hybrids for trading some damage off of Fortefighter in exchange for better gunning, but it's not okay for Protranser to trade off some gunning from Fortegunner in exchange for being able to do MORE damage in melee? That's BS. It's exactly the same relationship with the nearest Forte class both ways.

PT's probably one of the most effective classes in the game with lasers, shotguns, and grenades they can provide gunner support for fighter types (which is very important) almost as well as a Fortegunner... in exchange for some stats on their main job PT can also switch to melee and outdamage any other non-fighter. Carlo if you're going to be such an elitist about stats to endlessly troll a class thread, maybe you should try catching up on gameplay and teamwork a little as well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-11-20 07:32 ]</font>

[Striker112]

i use protranser for the weapon selction...

they are just plain fun to use http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[AGENT0]

I know im late but... W000T!!!

[Mawile]

I'm trying to think of anything a protranser could do that any other, stronger all around class can't do better.

And all i get is EX traps. Even as a Figunner, using traps were an incredible hassle since i had to have di/tri/moon/charge/anti, which meant i could maybe use ONE trap at a time. That and their tiny stack size made anything but just getting a burn trap G a hassle.

I don't get the point of having S rank in all those weapons if you can't even use them effectively. All of them need ATP to deal their damage. With the changes to skills, this isn't any sort of 'versatility',

Now, see if there was say, a set photon arts for a weapon that only protransers could use, and they could, oh, use that weapon to drop traps, that did damage that wasn't based on ATP, NOW i'd be more interested.

[Rizen]

Why is it that everyone keeps saying PT can't weapons effectively...theres more to weapons than just dealing damage. People make it seem like PTs only do 0-10 damage...Just because a class can do more damage doesn't mean they are any more effective at it than another.

I think people are missing the point that weapon (and class) is only as effective as the user.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-11-20 12:04, Mawile wrote:
I'm trying to think of anything a protranser could do that any other, stronger all around class can't do better.


... who are the stronger all around classes?
Fortegunner has lower max damage output because their melee isn't as good. They don't have EX traps either. So it's not stronger all around.
Fighgunner, Acrofighter, and Fortefighter aren't as effective at ranged AOE support because they lack level 40 bullets and shotgun/cannon/launcher weapon types. So they're not stronger all around either.

You're thinking of some class exactly like PT with higher ATP I guess? Mastergunner?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-11-20 12:27 ]</font>

[HFlowen]

I love how how 90% of this topic is "apples are better than oranges."

[blkbeast]

no no no flowen its "monomates are better than monomates"
roflroflrofl

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-11-20 04:51, biggabertha wrote:
Has anyone else felt that the new EX traps might be made by Kubara? Sometimes they don't go off properly and it feels like they were a dud... Is it because I didn't let it fully load on my PS2 or is it just some incompatibility with vanilla PSU and will be resolved in the expansion?


As far as I can tell, it's that their AOE doesn't have much (read: any) vertical tolerance. EX traps seem fine on perfectly level ground, sloping hallways in HIVE are where I've seen them misfiring so far.

On the other hand Burn EX traps aren't that great. I'm starting to think it's best to detonate 'em for the burn SE and then switch to melee instead of riding out the direct trap damage. Burn EX are certainly the best damaging traps, but I'd rather burn stuff while knocking it over from a safe distance with grenades... or hit things with my PA's for tens of thousands of damage plus knockdown, etc.

I think Freeze EX are going to be the traps that make PT win since they're pure fighter support.

[Carlo210]

On 2007-11-20 12:18, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-11-20 12:04, Mawile wrote:
I'm trying to think of anything a protranser could do that any other, stronger all around class can't do better.


... who are the stronger all around classes?
Fortegunner has lower max damage output because their melee isn't as good. They don't have EX traps either. So it's not stronger all around.
Fighgunner, Acrofighter, and Fortefighter aren't as effective at ranged AOE support because they lack level 40 bullets and shotgun/cannon/launcher weapon types. So they're not stronger all around either.

You're thinking of some class exactly like PT with higher ATP I guess? Mastergunner?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-11-20 12:27 ]</font>

I know what you're getting at, but all three of these classes get slicers, which takes care or ranged aoe support. Not to mention jabroni is a melee version of a grenade launcher.
So, while you're right that protransers have shotguns/lasers/launchers, you don't provide a good argument as to what this allows a protranser to do that another class cannot do as well.

[angemaru]

lol ...
ur just a bunch of trannies http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[HFlowen]

Regarding the "Ex trap duds" : http://boards2.sega.com/psu_board/viewtopic.php?t=55404



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HFlowen on 2007-11-20 13:31 ]</font>

[Remedy]

On 2007-11-20 04:51, biggabertha wrote:
What about being the only job so far that has the fewest weapon selection (just 10 compared to everyone else's) but has them all at S rank?Uh... Fortechers only have 9 weapon types, and only four at S-rank. (11 types post-AotI, and still only 4 at S-rank, and honestly, only four of those 11 are useful - Rod, Wand, Madoog, Longbow)

[SolRiver]

Last I check, weapon stats are more important than character stats overall.

How can anyone possibly compared a 9* weapon to a 12*?

You would be outrageous to compare 9* saber/dagger to a 12* axe. (1000+ atp a part)
It is completely absurd to compared 9* handgun/twin handgun to a 12* bow/laser. (400+ atp a part)

Now what happen if those weapons are all grinded? The stat fly off the chart. Protranser IS the best multi-situation class. Don't forget about PA level. If you calculate the character stats along with the weapon, you will see PT stats go above other classes that was supposed to be in the same category.

PT use range better than FI, FF.
PT use melee better than FG, GT.

The closest class that come close is AF. However, I don't have enough info of them to really put them into debate. However, if any class that is going to be flocked by bad players, it is AF, not PT. From what I seen, AF is the speed version of PT.

And yea, all AF would be human because they 5% race bonus O.o

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-20 13:38 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-11-20 13:09, Carlo210 wrote:
I know what you're getting at, but all three of these classes get slicers, which takes care or ranged aoe support. Not to mention jabroni is a melee version of a grenade launcher.
So, while you're right that protransers have shotguns/lasers/launchers, you don't provide a good argument as to what this allows a protranser to do that another class cannot do as well.


9* Slicer has 330 PP. You can use the PA combo 7 times before popping a charge. Is 10 charges enough to support your fighter buddy through a mission? Laser Cannoc +5 has something like 1650PP... it'll fire 100 times per charge plus whatever regeneration, and it can land SE3 shock / silence in addition to the physical effect as a parting gift for mobs if the fighters throw some launch/knockback around.

Jabroga just too slow for target suppression. It's not comparable to what I use grenades for. Bogga Zubba and Anga Dugrega are fast enough if you don't stop to JA but still vulnerable to interruption, as well as open to getting whacked before you start and every time you mess up. Both moves cost as much PP (per knockdown) as grenades do now, but they're on weapons with only a fraction of the PP capacity. You'll go through charges at 3-4 times the rate.

Right now this stuff doesn't matter. Even Protransers are wiping out targets in a single melee combo. When the difficulty gets stepped up however, it's going to matter a lot.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-11-20 14:03 ]</font>

[Mawile]

My problem is that, while it's fine and all to not be perfectly specialized, trannies seem to be absolutly all over the place and not excel at all.

PT Facts:
40 Bullets, 30 PAs, 0 techs, S rank in several melee weapons and in several ranged weapons.

PT Strengths:
They are the only class that can use EX traps.

PT Weakness: Terrible HP and ATP.

I'm confused. Who would use an axe when it is infact, the slowest weapon, and you have terrible ATP and HP to go with it? Or any melee weapon for that matter? Other than some weapons, none of them inflict status, and only some PAs would be decent enough for going up close to a monster with their lack of survivability.

Fine, so it's a more ranged class, that's fine. But their ATP is still terrible, meaning their shots do far less damage than say a Fortegunner. They can run up into a group to drop a trap, i guess, but they'll also spend a lot of time doing that, then running out to get away from them. So as far as ranged, a Fortegunner would likely be better.

No, I don't play protranser, i'm just wondering what makes them so lucrative. Everyone's going on about how well the player plays it and skill and such.

I CAN see a protranser being pretty decent if he has a full loadout of +8+ S rank 12*+ weapons. But what's the point then? To lay down EX traps?

EDIT: I'll come back to this once i get my facts straight. But i still don't see much of the protranser awesomeness that everyone likes so much http://xs114.xs.to/xs114/07150/emo-colbert.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mawile on 2007-11-20 18:00 ]</font>

[Tsavo]

On 2007-11-20 14:39, Mawile wrote:
My problem is that, while it's fine and all to not be perfectly specialized, trannies seem to be absolutly all over the place and not excel at all.

PT Facts:
40 Bullets, 30 PAs, 0 techs, S rank in several melee weapons and in several ranged weapons.

PT Strengths:
They are the only class that can use EX traps.

PT Weakness: Terrible HP and ATP.

I'm confused. Who would use an axe when it is infact, the slowest weapon, and you have terrible ATP and HP to go with it? Or any melee weapon for that matter? Other than some weapons, none of them inflict status, and only some PAs would be decent enough for going up close to a monster with their lack of survivability.

Fine, so it's a more ranged class, that's fine. But their ATP is still terrible, meaning their shots do far less damage than say a Fortegunner. They can run up into a group to drop a trap, i guess, but they'll also spend a lot of time doing that, then running out to get away from them. So as far as ranged, a Fortegunner would likely be better.

No, I don't play protranser, i'm just wondering what makes them so lucrative. Everyone's going on about how well the player plays it and skill and such.

I CAN see a protranser being pretty decent if he has a full loadout of +8+ S rank 12*+ weapons. But what's the point then? To lay down EX traps?


Gleaned from the wiki:

Male cast
lvl 110
Fighgunner 15

HP 2716
ATP 1253
ATA 568
TP 489
DFP 262
EVP 291
MST 108
STA 10

And a PT of same race/lvl

HP 2802
ATP 1089
ATA 459
TP 195
DFP 181
EVP 265
MST 122
STA 10

Perhaps you're thinking of a low leveled protranser? PT has only slightly less atp than Figh and more HP. FG gets lvl 40 skills but PT gets S ranks in spear, axe, swords, and knuckles, all heavy hitting melee. They should still be quite capable.

[pikachief]

i dont think 200 is slightly less atp but ok http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Rizen]

[b]On 2007-11-20 14:39, Mawile wrote[/b
PT Weakness: Terrible HP and ATP.
If I recall, PT has one of the highest HPs in the game. =/ And in AoI, they have far from terrible ATP.

[Schubalts]

On 2007-11-20 16:45, Rizen wrote:

[b]On 2007-11-20 14:39, Mawile wrote[/b
PT Weakness: Terrible HP and ATP.
If I recall, PT has one of the highest HPs in the game. =/ And in AoI, they have far from terrible ATP.



2nd or 3rd highest HP.

[Rizen]

People like seeing numbers so here:

http://rizen.maverickforce.com/Screenshots/PTvsfGfF.JPG

I'm sure the comparison at 15 won't be much different. The stats apart from PT to fF and fG are not ground breaking enough to call them weak.

[Tsavo]

On 2007-11-20 16:42, pikachief wrote:
i dont think 200 is slightly less atp but ok http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


200 atp=35~40 points of raw damage? Its noticable for sure but not a huge defecit, espically with all the shiny S's PT gets now.

[Broodstar1337]

Too bad they don't have wands, rofl XD

[Carlo210]

Not to be a pest, since chain quoting is annoying.

On 2007-11-20 13:35, SolRiver wrote:
Last I check, weapon stats are more important than character stats overall.
[/q]
No they aren't. If a fortefighter has 1500 atp, will using a 1500 atp axe versus a 1400 atp axe make much of a difference? Hell no.
1500+1500 = 3000 total atp
1500+1400 = 2900 total atp
Big whoop.

How can anyone possibly compared a 9* weapon to a 12*?

You would be outrageous to compare 9* saber/dagger to a 12* axe. (1000+ atp a part)
It is completely absurd to compared 9* handgun/twin handgun to a 12* bow/laser. (400+ atp a part)

Are you serious? Weapons are balanced in all sorts of ways. 9* weapons aren't much worse than even 12* weapons. You get more atp, of course, but using 9* weapons is still perfectly effective.
Why are mechguns and shotties so strong? Not because of the atp, but because of the output. Using a mechgun is like hitting an enemy with 1500atp (assuming you have 1500-ish atp total, mostly due to base atp) twice per second.
Same reason why dual daggers are so plain good.
[quote]
Now what happen if those weapons are all grinded? The stat fly off the chart. Protranser IS the best multi-situation class. Don't forget about PA level. If you calculate the character stats along with the weapon, you will see PT stats go above other classes that was supposed to be in the same category.

PT use range better than FI, FF.
PT use melee better than FG, GT.

The closest class that come close is AF. However, I don't have enough info of them to really put them into debate. However, if any class that is going to be flocked by bad players, it is AF, not PT. From what I seen, AF is the speed version of PT.

And yea, all AF would be human because they 5% race bonus O.o

Protransers aren't stronger gunners than the stronger gunner classes. Protransers have different weapons, but they aren't stronger simply due to stats. You can argue you're better at protranser range-ing than fighgunner range-ing, and that's nice and is what actually matters in the game most of the time, but that's not what we're talking about.
-------

@ Rizen
Fortefighter at level 15 gets a 168% ATP modifier while fortegunners get 130% and protransers get 120%.
Just because you brought it up, I'll provide the stats. You're a good guy, rizen, I'm not trying to be a pest or anything.

Level 110 class level 15 - males

A human Fortefighter:
1402 atp
A cast fortefighter:
1525 atp
A beast fortefighter:
1695

Cast fortegunner:
1215 atp
Beast Fortegunner:
1274 atp

Human acrofighter:
1174 atp
Cast Acrofighter:
1216 atp
Beast acrofighter:
1313 atp

Human Fighgunner:
1186 atp
Cast fighgunner:
1253 atp

Cast
A human protranser:
1032 atp (around 400 less atp than ff)
A cast protranser:
1089 atp (around 450 less atp than ff)
A beast protranser:
1176 atp (more than 500 less atp than a fortefighter)

So there is a pretty big atp gap. Of course, atp isn't the only important stat.
ATA is the same for fortefighters as with protransers, and other defensive stats are lower on protransers than on fortefighters, fortegunners, acrofighters, and fighgunners. Take it or leave it.

And I guess some people would liek to see the atp of certain classes anyways, so there you go. Some races aren't listed for some of the classes cause they weren't currently listed on the japanese site I'm using (guess they have no time to list other class/race combos - too busy playing aoi).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-20 22:32 ]</font>

[SolRiver]

On 2007-11-20 22:04, Carlo210 wrote:
Not to be a pest, since chain quoting is annoying.
No they aren't. If a fortefighter has 1500 atp, will using a 1500 atp axe versus a 1400 atp axe make much of a difference? Hell no.
1500+1500 = 3000 total atp
1500+1400 = 2900 total atp
Big whoop.

You completely missed the point. The point being S rank > A rank. Protranser IS the best multi-situational class. One class that use S rank weapon will beat out another class that use A rank weapon any time, any where and all day.


Are you serious? Weapons are balanced in all sorts of ways. 9* weapons aren't much worse than even 12* weapons. You get more atp, of course, but using 9* weapons is still perfectly effective.
Why are mechguns and shotties so strong? Not because of the atp, but because of the output. Using a mechgun is like hitting an enemy with 1500atp (assuming you have 1500-ish atp total, mostly due to base atp) twice per second.
Same reason why dual daggers are so plain good.
Are you serious? S rank attack faster (slightly) than A rank and also got more ATA AND ATP, even the grind is on higher end. How can you argue that A rank can compete with S rank? By the way you said, you can practically toss out all the S rank weapon in this game because they are only as good as A rank. INSANE!

What's next? You going to compare how A rank single hand dagger with lv20 PA can out damage S class axe with lv30 PA? I will be deeply impressed if you can prove that with numbers.



Protransers aren't stronger gunners than the stronger gunner classes. Protransers have different weapons, but they aren't stronger simply due to stats. You can argue you're better at protranser range-ing than fighgunner range-ing, and that's nice and is what actually matters in the game most of the time, but that's not what we're talking about.
Sure, we can play that game. Let's just deny whatever protranser is good at and fold your ears so you don't hear anything good. PROTRANSER IS THE BEST MULTI-SITUATIONAL CLASS!! THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT!

Sure FF & FI will beat PT in melee, but PT beat FF & FI in range.
Sure FG & GT will beat PT in range, but PT beat FG & GT in melee.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT! Protranser fix ANY hole you may have in your pant, now stop bashing the pant repairman. Someone need to do the dirty work if those FF, FI, FG, GT are too arrogant/lazy/inefficient to do it themselves.

(and EX traps =P)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-21 11:03 ]</font>

[Gen2000]

Being able to carry 15 AoE Burn Traps (5 Gs and 10 EXes) can speed up runs quite a bit and their melee ability is actually nice from the boost and seeing how much melee actually owns in this game now, even the "weakest" melee is still the best form of attacking 95% of the time.

[Soulvayne]

On 2007-11-21 10:59, SolRiver wrote:

On 2007-11-20 22:04, Carlo210 wrote:
Not to be a pest, since chain quoting is annoying.
No they aren't. If a fortefighter has 1500 atp, will using a 1500 atp axe versus a 1400 atp axe make much of a difference? Hell no.
1500+1500 = 3000 total atp
1500+1400 = 2900 total atp
Big whoop.

You completely missed the point. The point being S rank > A rank. Protranser IS the best multi-situational class. One class that use S rank weapon will beat out another class that use A rank weapon any time, any where and all day.

I find a little flaw in the S>A all the time logic S ranks are only going to be better than most 9* weapons the higher the * they are 10s are not a whole lot better than 9s per say.

Hmm... lets see Shigga Bines 9* shotgun say with 5 Grinds (118 atp) with 10 grinds (131 atp)

Shigga Desta 10* Shotgun Base Atp: 117 atp 5 grinds (128 atp)

Shigga Baret 11* Shotgun Base Atp: 123atp 3 grinds its 132.

You can see a 9* shotgun fully grinded has quite comparable stats with a 10/11 star one (though I"m just going off what stats are shown in the item database as far as grinds are concerned right now.)

A fortegunner using a 9* Shotgun because of their still slightly higher ATP is going to do more damage than a Protranser using a S rank shotgun.

[Darkly]

I don't see the point in comparing all these numbers.

Protransers can use grenade launchers on the bigger agressive enemies and bosses, bow's on flying enemies and bossses, also they can use shotguns to quickly apply SE and help control enemies thanks to the added flinch. They can then use melee for a higher damage output than there guns.

So they may not be the strongest, but they are very useful - They have ups on FF and FiG thanks to their bows and nade launchers, and have their ups on FG because their melee will beat ranger DPS.

No class is useless, the reason PT are weak is because of their good versitility.

[Soulvayne]

The thing I've generally found with enemies that are bullet resistant as a Fortegunner; DoT status effects still land on them amazingly enough.

[Carlo210]

Sol River, you're getting way too crazy with your posts and how you're arguing your points.
Did you see the stats I provided? A fortegunner with an A rank spear is as strong as a protranser with an S rank spear due to their higher stats. Having 200 more atp than another person means all of your weapons basically have an extra 200 atp on them. Likewise with fortefighters. This is how ATP works. Weapon atp and base atp are the same thing. If you wear a power unit and get an extra 100atp, it's like adding 100 atp to every single one of your weapons. Understand?
Fortefighter could have all B rank weapons and they'd still have more ATP than a protranser. A fortefighter using a crappy saber with 50 atp (or whatever) has 1550 atp total. A protranser with an S rank saber (650 atp?) will have 1650 atp.
All of the fortefighter's weapons are 500 atp stonger than a protranser's weapons.

Fortegunners have around 200 more atp than a protranser. You know what this means? An A rank spear with 650 atp really has 850 atp. A protranser with 200 less atp than a forteguner using an S rank 800 atp spear has just that - 800 atp.

This is why fighgunners and fortegunners will always be better at using crossbows than Guntechers, even though they get S-ranks. At the same time, I'm not saying guntechers suck. So stop being so defensive.
Protransers with s ranks still have less atp than someone using all a ranks. Maybe when 18* weapons come out, protransers will outdo the stronger classes who use A-rank weapons.

Lowdown: All of a fortegunner's weapons have 200-250 more atp than a protranser's weapons. All of a fortefighter's weapons have 500 more atp than a protranser's weapons. All of a fighgunner's and acrofighter's weapons have 250-300 more atp.
It's as simple as that. Protransers are definately cool, but those who are saying the whole s-rank dealie makes up for the low atp is putting the S-rank atp on a high, high pedestal. S ranks are better, duh. I never said they weren't. I just said they weren't strong enough compared to A ranks to even out the protranser's atp.
Thassit. I'm not saying ATP is the most important thing, I'm just saying that protransers, although they are cool, aren't a strong multisituational class compared to other hybrids.

[SolRiver]

Objective: Reach highest ATP possible without party support with current data.

Human male
----------------

anti melee scenario => change to range
----------------
single target weapons
----------------
FI: LV110, 15
atp 1150
Weapon: 9* Tenora A rank GRM twin handgun +250 + double hit +
atp = 1400 + 60% lv30 PA = 2240
---------------
PT: LV110, 15
atp 1032
Weapon: 11* Yohmei S rank Bow atp +677 +penetrate defense
atp = 1709 + 95% = 3247
--------------
FF: lv110, 15
atp 1402
Weapon: 9* Tenora A rank handgun atp + 318 no special ability
atp = 1720 + 40% lv20 PA = 2408
-------------

anti range scenario => change to melee
-------------
FG: lv110, 15
atp 1215
Weapon: Tenora A rank spear atp +676 no special ability
atp = 1891 + 110% lv20 PA = 3971
-------------
PT: lv110, 15
atp 1032
Weapon: Tenora S rank axe atp +1416 no special ability
atp = 2448 + 230% lv30 PA = 8078
------------

Conclusion: PT came out on top with ATP over every "unfavorable scenario" where maximum potential can not be achieved.

Source:
http://psu.fei-yen.jp
http://pwv.sakura.ne.jp/
Previous post on character stat
http://psupedia.info/Ambition_of_the_Illuminus

===============
GT got lv30 support tech, that make them better crossbow user than both FG and FI in a solo environment.
===============
It is correct saying ATP isn't everything that matters. In a real situation, as a FG, I will continue to use my gun regardless of anti range scenario for the SE. As ATP isn't the only thing that matters, PT is not weak purely because of lacking in stats.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-21 17:56 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

So you're comparing a spear to an axe? Sure, axes have more ATP and a protranser will have more ATP when he/she weild one, but the weapon types are balanced because axes are slower and spears are faster. That's why spears don't have 1000+atp. We already covered this.

And you're comparing a bow to twin handguns? You should multiply the fighgunner's ATP when using the dual pistols by 2, which would make the fighgunners come out on top.
On top of that, a FF's pistol shoots much faster than a bow shoots (as do the previously mentioned dual pistols), making the damage per second much higherthan you make it appear in comparison to the protranser.

And what's with leaving fighgunners and acrofighters out of the anti-bullet melee situation? Last time I checked, they were melee/gunner hybrids. Just because they specialize more in melee doesn't mean they aren't extremely effective at gunning due to their high atp, gun choices, rate of fire, and level 30 bullets.
It would seem that you proved fighgunners and fortefighters are better gunners in an anti-melee situation due to their high atp and quick output.
Is this what you were trying to prove?


EDIT: typo'd 'weild'


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-21 18:09 ]</font>

[GeekRuler]

My Human Female Lv 101 13 PT has 911 ATP and I use a Tero / All Save which makes my ATP 100 less and ATA 60 less. If I take this off I do about 30 more damage with all my weapons really 100-200 ATP diff isn't enough for me to care http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[SolRiver]

On 2007-11-21 18:05, Carlo210 wrote:
So you're comparing a spear to an axe? Sure, axes have more ATP and a protranser will have more ATP when he/she weild one, but the weapon types are balanced because axes are slower and spears are faster. That's why spears don't have 1000+atp. We already covered this.
Guess what is the reason that most classes don't get axe? Want to know why FF use axe for some serious damage?



And you're comparing a bow to twin handguns? You should multiply the fighgunner's ATP when using the dual pistols by 2, which would make the fighgunners come out on top.
Not true because you forgot defense that FI have to fight through. Bow ignore defense but only 1 shot, with far superior range.


On top of that, a FF's pistol shoots much faster than a bow shoots (as do the previously mentioned dual pistols), making the damage per second much higherthan you make it appear in comparison to the protranser. Why don't you supply some numbers? I didn't supply numbers for this because both bow and handgun can be used in different situation and you can't really even them out in the same scenario.



And what's with leaving fighgunners and acrofighters out of the anti-bullet melee situation? Last time I checked, they were melee/gunner hybrids. Just because they specialize more in melee doesn't mean they aren't extremely effective at gunning due to their high atp, gun choices, rate of fire, and level 30 bullets.
I don't have enough data to really go into AF, while their attack speed increase can vary on situation as well.

As for FI, their melee are superior to a PT. However their range is inferior to a PT. So they shared. To a FI, melee is a favorable scenario, is it not? FI are a hybrid that chose a side. PT chose no side. However now that AF are introduced, PT got the slow side and the AF got the fast side.



It would seem that you proved fighgunners and fortefighters are better gunners in an anti-melee situation due to their high atp and quick output.
Is this what you were trying to prove?

Let's see... first when everyone said stat aren't everything as it can be based upon situation given, you insisted to that PT's stat are inferior and that's why they are inferior overall. Now that I came up with hard numbers, you insisted that the scenario are unfair.

I cleared my objective. In terms of stats in unfavorable scenario, PT's ATP is superior.

Now why can't the scenario on either side ever be fair? It is because this is OBVIOUSLY an apple-orange ordeal. YOU DON'T COMPARE THEM. If you ever compare, apple is always red(green) and orange is always orange; apple is obviously superior because it is red?

Why don't you end your silly goose chase and go play the game now that you finally realized that this is an apple-orange situation. I like my kiwi.

Now if you want to play FF, that's fine. It is just that FF is crap when it come to range. If you don't want to be a complete crap like FF, you go FI. If you want to completely even it out then you go PT. Apple, Apple Soda, Fruit Punch.

Edit: forgot to say one thing... Don't reply if you don't got hard numbers of your situational DPS.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-21 19:47 ]</font>

On second thought, if you can supply DPS at all with regular hit AND PA, I would be deeply impressed. And if the numbers turn out right, you win the debate, and we can broadcast that protranser are perform everything less. Then force ST to fix protranser.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-21 19:53 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

You're being very biased. Axes aren't the end all be all for damage. They have higher numbers, but are slower, which balances them out. And fighgunners being inferior to protransers at gunning? Fighgunners (and acrofighters) have very fast guns and spit out bullets very fast that all pack a big(ger) punch.

And I'm not on a goose chase. You're getting ridiculously worked up over this. All I'm doing here is discussing protranser and other similar hybrids and classes in an equal light. What are you doing? You're telling me 'Protranser does big numbers with axe and bow, meaning they do better damage overall". That's like saying a 5000 atp special axe that does one attack every, say, 10 seconds gives you more dps than a 0 atp weapon (lets say a machinegun) that attacks three times every second. With these two special weapons, both on the extreme spectrum of high atp + slow versus low atp + fast, the fast weapon will win. Why? Becaus the small weapon has 1500 atp (for a fortefighter) and the slow weapon has 7500 atp. Spitting out 1500 atp 3x per second does more damage than spitting out 7500 atp 1x every 10 seconds. Of course, this doesn't mirror the real weapons - it's only an extreme case that should make this mechanic of the game easy to understand. This is why rifles aren't a smart fortegunner's weapon of choice for small-to-medium sized enemies. Or would you disagree with that statement as well? If so, there are some smart fortegunners here who would disagree.

And you're telling me not to reply unless I provide you some 'hard numbers'? I've provided hard numbers. What have you done? You simply tell me that high atp weapons = high dps. If that were true, rifles would be a fortegunner's best dps weapon. Unfortunately, it isn't. Faster guns or guns with multiple bullets are much more damaging than a rifle or bow.

Yes, ff is crap when it comes to range. And? FF isn't a hybrid, of course it won't be range-centric... although their pistols pack a 1800 base atp punch, meaning they are definately not rangeless.

I am being fair. I said PT is what it is, but it's not on the same teir of damage-dealing as other classes. It trades it's atp for ex traps, increasd trap effectiveness, and an enjoyable heavy-weapons arsenal.
And, in terms of stats in unfavorable scenarios, the other hybrids are still stronger than protransers. You never disproved that, not even with hard numbers as you are clearly inducing your bias into every one of your posts (as well as an unfounded offensiveness).

ST doesn't need to fix protranser just because they don't do as much damage as other hybrids that do the melee/ranged shmeel. Other hybrids are weaker than forte classes because they have variety. Protransers trade even MORE strength in order to have MORE variety. That's what a protranser is, so calm down.

You're saying it's a class that exceeds at unfavorable scenarios, which isn't true. I'm not saying they suck at unfavorable scenarios, but they certainly don't outpower the classes that are meant to be, and are, more powerful (Fi and AF) in these situations. You're acting as if protranser is the only melee/gunner hybrid and that they don't sacrafice anything for having a fun and varied weapon selection and so forth.

As I stated earlier in my replies to other people, I'm not trying to be a protranser-basher or a pest of any sort to people who enjoy the class. I enjoy the class. It's fun. It isn't, however, the light from christ's cave that you constantly defend it as being. It isn't a class based on damage. Period. It isn't a class based on exceeding in melee or ranged damage in any unfavorable scenarios that may occur. That is what fighgunner and acrofighter are for due to their sutiable atp and ata. Protransers are an engineering class who exceed at offensive support and smacking enemies with big weapons, just as engineers in any other game use shotguns, even if they aren't as good at it as other classes.

You're being so defensive and one-sided with your arguments. If you want hard numbers, do the long division. The atp and PA damage %s are available.

Ps. Don't tell me not to reply unless I give you what you can find out on your own very easily. It's offensive and hostile. We aren't in a flame war here or some heated up argument, so that tone isn't appreciated nor does it make your points valid.

Edit: fixed the wall of text. Gosh, I talk too much. Maybe that's why some people think I'm being some annoying flamer or something.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-21 21:59 ]</font>

[SolRiver]

Wow, I can't seem to get through that thick skulls of yours. You know why PT excel in unfavorable scenario? Because they have none. While all other hybrids (aside AF) are not TRUE hybrid. I already disprove that PT's stat are higher than those "hybrid" in their unfavorable scenario which PT does not have. While you argue the the DPS of faster weapon off set the higher atp of axe, but I don't see any number to make such claim. Yes, they are faster, but how much faster? Where the hell is the DPS numbers that we need to see? Now you tell me to calculate the data for your response? Do I have to do everything for you?

No class have more variety than PT. In return PT suffer stat loss. That everyone saw. However they had no unfavorable scenario while all other hybrid had an unfavorable scenario. That was the whole point, as you were saying that other classes perform better than PT even in their unfavorable scenario which I found not true.

Now bring me those DPS that you brought up about weapon speed. You are replying to me purely because you don't believe (or I somehow can't communicate my message to you) that your facts are wrong, so if you aren't wrong, bring some numbers and convince me.

I say the slower weapon with high atp in S rank will still beat a fast weapon with lower atp in A rank. The slow weapon isn't slow enough to let faster weapon to catch up. While the melee weapon's PA speed also varies, which often offset their slower normal speed.

If you can't take the way I type my message because of all those "INSANE" "ABSURD" w/e; simple just ignore those message exist or not. They were more for me to express myself than for you to read it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-21 23:50 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

Protransers have no unfavorable scenario. Ok.
I''ll say "Neither do other melee/gunner hybrids." and suddenly it's blasphemy. As I've said, protranser isn't the only melee/gunner hybrid. They're just built differently.

You're acting as if I'm saying all of these absurdist things that make no sense.
I give you the class ATP levels. That's a number.
You listed the total atp a fighgunner has per dual pistol bullet. That's a number.
I said dual pistols shoot twice per shot, thus the atp value for the dual pistol should be twice what you listed, but suddenly I am out of line.

Dual pistols multiply your atp by two. That is a fact. Crossbows multiply it by 3, shotguns multiply it by 5. That's why they are such good weapons, yet they are still balanced. Just like how axes, slow weapons, are balanced by being stronger (not dps, mind you... for the 7th time).

It's not rocketscience to know that axes hit harder and are slower while fast weapons benefit immensely from a higher atp pool. If you don't understand that ancient common knowledge of slice-and-dice versus heavy-hitters, then that is not my fault. All I can tell you that heavy-hitting requires power and slicer-and-dicing benefits from power immensely due to more strikes, thus packing more power behind every hit. I'm not sure if you've played PSU, but this is how classes like fighgunner stay balanced against classes like fortefighter and this is how techs, bullets, and skills are balanced. It's the balancing model behind the whole game and you're telling me you need numbers to prove it?


I say the slower weapon with high atp in S rank will still beat a fast weapon with lower atp in A rank. The slow weapon isn't slow enough to let faster weapon to catch up. While the melee weapon's PA speed also varies, which often offset their slower normal speed.
Are you kidding? What, base atp hase no role whasoever? Does the fact that having an S rank weapon doesn't make you catch up in ATP to a stronger class with A ranks not occur to you? A fighgunner has 200-ish more atp than a protranser so far (that gap will only grow). This means, plain and simple for you to understand, that everything they use, even guns, has an extra 200 atp (minimum) over anything you use. Suddenly, an A rank dual pistol with 250 atp has caught up simply by virtue of the fighgunner or acrofighter having higher atp. Voila! A 450 damage double pistol. But that, according to you, isn't worth much. Take base atp into account when discussing the atp of classes. It's a key point that makes arguments make sense.

Fighgunners and acrofighters have higher atp and A rank guns, but they all shoot very fast, thus, in many cases, multiplying their atp by 2 (dual pistols) or 3 (crossbows).
Does a protranser with a 600 atp bow hold up to a fighgunner with a 250 atp dual pistol. No. Blasphemy? No.
Here are some beloved numbers, my master. Tell me if my peasantly breaths are worthy to breeze through your lordly eardrums.

A FG or AT with 1200 base atp, a 250 atp gun, and a 60% bonus to the bullets form the BA = 2320 x2 = 4640
A protranser with 1000 base atp, a 600 atp gun, and a 95% bonus to the bullets from the BA = 3120 x1 = 3120

And, in a situation where melee resistant enemies are present and gunning is required, bows on a protranser are stronger than dual pistols on a FG or AT... how?

Let's not forget the HIGHER dps crossbows and cards.
Is that good enough to make me worthy of stating the fact that protransers aren't as good gunners or meleers as other classes?

Yes, PT suffers a stat loss. You awknoeldge this. Glory be!
FG and AF do as well, but it isn't as harsh, you see. Blasphemy!?
In return, however, they can only weild A rank guns as opposed to a protranser's S rank guns. Right? Right.
Therefore, one would say that protransers can catch up in damage by getting very good S rank guns as opposed to using A rank guns like a fighgunner and acrofighter, right? Back up for a second...

You see, you continually ignore the fact that weapon atp and base atp are of the same value and, since the advantage other fighters, even fortefighters, have in the ATP department, they simply don't need S rank weapons to do better ranged damage. The ancient art of slice-and-dice versus heavy-hitting goes against protranser's favour. Not only that, but fighgunners and acrofighters don't rely on ATP based guns. Its the fact that their fast guns multiply their ATP pool via a combination of speed and extra bullets that makes them effective gun users.

Protransers, on the other hand, need high atp weapons in order to see the higher ATP stat. However, what you ignore is that high atp guns (and weapons) are slow. So, while you can keep shouting the fact that Protransers have a competing ATP stat once their S ranks are put into place, you ignore the fact that these guns are of the heavy-hitter category and the other melee/gunner hybrids yeild better ranged output in a hybrid, anti-melee environment. Why? Because the other hybrids are of the slice-and-dice category of ranged combat, which benefits from their higher base ATP much more.

So maybe it's time you provide some numbers. Prove how a protranser does more ranged damage by firing a slowly with a high atp weapon than a fi/af who does ranged damage by firing quickly with a low atp weapon. Here's a hint: A higher atp weapon doesn't mean higher atp, nor does it mean higher dps. What a conundrum!

Sorry for typing so much. If I say protranser rocks, will that make someone happy?

PS. I think we've also agreed on the fact that protransers aren't superior with melee damage compared to fighgunners and acrofighters. If, for some obscene reason, you think protransers still exceed with melee damage in anti-bullet situations versus fighgunners and acrofighters, I'm going to have a bad case of hemroids.

Edit: fixed the quote. Silly me. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-22 01:38 ]</font>

[SolRiver]

You forgot one fact, bow penetrate defenses and twin/pistol doesn't. Which offset the double hit. What twin/pistol does better than bow is not getting hit in close range, and not require to stop firing to avoid damage. Bow need to move if target get too close. Another fact, bow have longer range and hence initiate their attack first before other shorter range weapon. Yes, it seems balanced, but you had to go ahead and say FI is better in the range department which I do not believe is true.

The slice and dice vs power argument run true most of the time, but not when PA % also come to play; however you continue to ignore the PA lv completely. There is a limit to slice and dice that you don't seem to acknowledge.


2 can play this game:
---------------------
A FG or AT with 1200 base atp, a 250 atp gun, and a 60% bonus to the bullets form the BA = 2320 x2 = 4640-50%(target defense)= 2320
A protranser with 1000 base atp, a 600 atp gun, and a 95% bonus to the bullets from the BA = 3120 x1 = 3120 -0%(target defense) = 3120
---------------------
Guess what, those s rank are only 11*.

You seem to conveniently bring in AF and AT whenever possible when they are the class with the least data around, yet you don't really provide any data of your own.

While I love how you keep saying "It is fine if PT is what you like, but they sux". Implying that all PT are losers.

I still don't believe a S rank high power weapon lose to an A rank low power weapon. Unless you can actually calculate the number and put it in my face, other wise I won't believe it.

S rank made up for the low atp. High atp made up for the A rank. That's fine, but I believe my S rank is higher while you believe your A rank is higher; since no one can/will provide the number, we each rely on our own faith.

So don't reply back saying I am wrong if you don't got numbers. Because I am just going to tell you that you are wrong.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-22 01:19 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

I didn't forget a fact. You have no idea how penetrate defense works. The bow's defense penetration only works against targets like deragon's tails and so forth - targets that divide damage flat-out. It simply makes aiming more convenient as you don't need to contranly target the head or whatnot. This is old news, buddy.

And stop saying I don't provide data. Look up. I've given you data. Simply stop ignoring me.
I never said PT sucks. Stop lying.
I did calculate the number and "put it in your face". Are you kidding?
I never said a FI's or AF's A ranks are higher, I said their Base ATP is higher - much higher than the difference in S ranks would be for the weapons they use. An extra 200 atp for a mechgun is a HUGE difference in output compared to an extra 200 atp on a bow, which doesn't do as much for your dps. This is why getting a large increase on base atp boosts your dps when using quick weapons WAY more than with slow weapons. But I'm wrong, right? Doing an extra 200 atp every half a second is WORSE than doing an extra 200 atp every 2 seconds? Bullhooey.

S ranks don't make up for the low atp if the weapons are of a different caliber. Are you ever going to absorb this vital information? Should I make a film about it so you remember it by the time you start writing another post? If it was S rank dual pistols versus A rank dual pistols, fine, but that isn't the case. Stop pretending as if it is. It's a slow weapons with a total of 3200 atp versus fast firing weapons with a total atp of around 4200 atp. Yet you have the brains to say the former is more effective at killing stuff.

"Don't reply back saying I am wrong?" Excuse me? You are wrong. I can comfortably say this. You're skewed view and selective reading and understanding makes your posts have so many contradictions with the actual game. You dismiss numbers, mechanics of the game, the stat that determines attack power (conveniently labelled as ATP), weapon speeds, and the performance we've seen of melee/gunner hybrids for the past goshdarned year. Stop acting as if I'm not adressing your silly points that you think need to be adressed. I've been stupid enough to actually reply to you and try to enlighten you to something so simple. I've said the exact same things for 10 posts and you act as if I've never said a word.

Will it help if I told you you still don't understand that 2000 atp and fast output > 2000 atp and slow output? That is the case here and you're simply pretending that it isn't. Thanks for playing. This is ridiculous.

This discussion shouldn't require two people. It hardly requires half a brain.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-22 01:41 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-22 01:45 ]</font>

[SolRiver]

Wrong. You keep saying that their atp are the same. Sure if the power of the weapon is the same, the fastest one win. But guess what, the power isn't the same, they are about 1000 away from each other.

I had already show you the PT's ATP of the S rank is higher than the FI's ATP of the A rank.

You don't seem to acknowledge the defense exist, and just flat out say the twin handgun do more damage due to double hit. Then you magically put the damage to x2, and left the bow alone. How one sided was that? Why? So you can say whatever you like and I have to listen like an idiot?

S rank make up for the low atp, and that's what I am telling you. If it was S rank dual pistol vs S rank dual pistol, then the FI should win over PT any day, but it isn't.

In my post, I didn't say anywhere that bow is superior to twin handgun in every situation. Read again.
I stated the pro and con of each weapon. Ever try using twin handgun on those robots from the train? Guess what, bow flat out damage them. Whatever happen if we go into C rank killing lv5 monsters? Your twin handgun would win because those monsters got no defense.

You keep replying back like an angry board, not noticing that you done exactly everything you claimed I did.

Sure, go make me a video, but if it doesn't got the DPS numbers I won't believe it.

I didn't discard any game mechanic, but you did. You just went and flat out say the dual shots from twin handgun win without calculating the target's defense. While I don't believe the weapon speed of the bow in S rank is slow enough for a twin handgun A rank to catch up the ATP range. You conveniently change the the 1000 atp difference to 200, with the amazing logic you got.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolRiver on 2007-11-22 10:06 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

You know what, whatever you're just being ridiculous now. You are not puttng any effort into piecing together information at all. You still disregard very simple pieces of information and fail to see how some of the simplest aspects of PSU (and any fighting game) work.
Everything you've said has been ignoring so many things it's ridiculous. Bows outdamage dual pistols because of defense ignoring? Sure, in damage mitigating situations.
So how does this prove that protransers are better at ranged damage in anti-melee damage than a fighgunner or acrofighter?
Silly me, I thought we were discussing how protransers are better at ranged damage in melee-resistant situations, not overall damage mitigating situations. Way to skew an argument to the point where there is no point in trying to get information across. You want me to make a video? What, so you could ignore that too? Good fracking luck in getting me to do that.

I can't believe I just bothered to type that paragraph. You will ignore it or try to prove it wrong by saying something so skewed you could ski down it.

You fail to awknowledge the existence of a term called dps. But dps doesn't matter to you, apparently. It's all about getting one big fat number rather than many big numbers in succession. Are you the kind of fortegunner who uses rifles for every situation?

sigh. I still can't believe I wasted so much time trying to talk to you. You're right about everything, happy? A class that shoots for 3000 atp every 1.5-2 seconds is stronger in anti-melee situations than a class that shoots for 2500 atp twice every second. My logic does fail, you are correct.

Like I said, this conversation doesn't require the both of us. With the way you're using critical thinking skills and putting information together, you're causing this p.o.s. discussion to drag on for ages. I've requested for topic lock-up. This discussion isn't even about Protranser anymore, it's about trying to communicate simple weapon mechanics and terms such as dps.
Goodbye. You can still play this game of 'discussion' if you want - I just won't be here to play with you.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-11-22 10:44 ]</font>

[SolRiver]

Yes, sound like a perfect way to escape.

The next time you said PT are weak, and I will be there to say you are wrong. See you another time.