Twin-Claw PAs

[Benegesserit]

I was looking up the twin-claw PAs and I like the second one a lot (the one that costs like 36k).

Are the ones after it worth getting besides to look funny?

[panzer_unit]

The basic 10k one isn't bad... it executes quickly and hits 3 targets from start to finish.

[Benegesserit]

It's too bad they didn't design a system so you could link them together in one long combo.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-03 13:55, panzer_unit wrote:
The basic 10k one isn't ba-


Yes it is.

[Nyreal]

Renzan Seidan-ga. That's all you need to know.

[CelestialBlade]

First one is terrible.

Second one is flippin' awesome.

Third one isn't bad.

Fourth one (coming soon to AoI) is looking very good, although very funny-looking.

[Hrith]

People who say first one is bad and second is good don't know what they're talking about.
At all.

Bukuu Rensen-ga hits three targets each time, stuns monsters and the final part does huge damage.
It is by far the fastest twin claw PA.
It has huge range, and very good radius.
It is also very easy to maneuver.


Renzan Seidan-ga gott a huge damage boost in AoI, but the range and radius are still so crappy.
Dealing high damage is only good if you hit at all.
The radius of that PA is so bad a monster could be 90 degrees from you and not get hit.
This kills the PA.


Rensan Senshou-ga is now incredibly powerful, and a lot less vulnerable than before (stun hits), but it's still a slow PA, so it should not be used against cancel heavy monsters. This PA has an incredible range, a very good radius on the first two parts, a 360 degree radius on the final hit, and range way beyond what the claws show.
Also, very high damage.



So yeah, both Bukuu and Rensan are clearly better than Renzan, in actual use.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-03 22:10, Hrith wrote:
People who say first one is bad and second is good don't know what they're talking about.
At all.

Huh...



Bukuu Rensen-ga hits three targets each time, stuns monsters and the final part does huge damage.
This makes it an AoE PA, known for their 360* radius and high range. It's also one of the least damaging PAs I've used that doesn't have a throwaround.


It is by far the fastest twin claw PA.
Speed is on-par with Renzan, at best. Any difference is arguable. Besides that, its high speed makes its high PP cost more noticeable.


It has huge range, and very good radius.
Worse attack radius of any crowd PA I've tried, and its range is still lower than most weapons.


It is also very easy to maneuver.
Agreed.


Renzan Seidan-ga gott a huge damage boost in AoI, but the range and radius are still so crappy.
It's a damaging PA, meaning it focuses on one enemy. Why would you need high range and radius when you're only targeting one enemy at a time and each hit boosts you forward? Even if you are facing multiple enemies, you can easily switch from one to the other mid-combo, or position yourself so that you get multiple enemies in your attack range.


Dealing high damage is only good if you hit at all.
This is a basic principle of combat. Why is this in your argument?


The radius of that PA is so bad a monster could be 90 degrees from you and not get hit.
90*? You mean, directly to your left? Why would you attack a monster that isn't in front of you? Turn before using the PA.


This kills the PA.
Sure, if you're going to use it like that.



Rensan Senshou-ga is now incredibly powerful, and a lot less vulnerable than before (stun hits), but it's still a slow PA, so it should not be used against cancel heavy monsters. This PA has an incredible range, a very good radius on the first two parts, a 360 degree radius on the final hit, and range way beyond what the claws show.
Also, very high damage.

I haven't used this PA in a long time, but I am still put off by its slow speed and its overall lack of damage and usefulness until the last hit (which due to its slow speed, is very hard to get to). The range is as long as any other twin claw PA, and the radius is decent but nothing special. In order to get anything out of this PA, you have to wait until the last hit, in which case I could have been done with Renzan.




So yeah, both Bukuu and Rensan are clearly better than Renzan, in actual use.


What level are you?

[Xaeris]

On 2007-12-03 22:10, Hrith wrote:
People who say first one is bad and second is good don't know what they're talking about.
At all.

Bukuu Rensen-ga hits three targets each time, stuns monsters and the final part does huge damage.
It is by far the fastest twin claw PA.
It has huge range, and very good radius.
It is also very easy to maneuver.


Renzan Seidan-ga gott a huge damage boost in AoI, but the range and radius are still so crappy.
Dealing high damage is only good if you hit at all.
The radius of that PA is so bad a monster could be 90 degrees from you and not get hit.
This kills the PA.



Hrith, remind me. Didn't you once defend pre-buff Hishou Jinren-zan's lack of manuverability against Rising Crush on the point that "god forbid it takes skill to use"?

[Syl]

On 2007-12-03 22:50, Xaeris wrote:

Hrith, remind me. Didn't you once defend pre-buff Hishou Jinren-zan's lack of manuverability against Rising Crush on the point that "god forbid it takes skill to use"?



Don't forget the tornado dance's 1.8 seconds of pure DPS http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif ON LOW LEVEL PANNONS!!!!

[MELGRIN]

the 36k PA is the only gopod one. the 10k PA is worthless damage.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-03 22:10, Hrith wrote:
People who say first one is bad and second is good don't know what they're talking about.
At all.

Bukuu Rensen-ga hits three targets each time, stuns monsters and the final part does huge damage.
It is by far the fastest twin claw PA.
It has huge range, and very good radius.
It is also very easy to maneuver.

Renzan Seidan-ga gott a huge damage boost in AoI, but the range and radius are still so crappy.
Dealing high damage is only good if you hit at all.
The radius of that PA is so bad a monster could be 90 degrees from you and not get hit.
This kills the PA.

Uh... Bukuu and Renzan's multi-target moves have about the same reach (poor) and attack arc (good). I can't think of ANY PA's for a single weapon type that have significantly different reach without just being a question of forward movement. If you can deal with one PA and not the other it's just a case of seeing only what you want to see.

Moves that pile damage into a single target are really useful for maximizing damage, and Renzan's the best of the bunch now... much more maneuverable and less expensive than Bogga Robado or Gravity Break.

Bukuu's an awesome PA for damaging multi-target bipeds or fighting swarms of little monsters. It deals a lot of hits really quickly while staggering 3 targets to minimize interruptions.

Between these two, you can use twin claws as a good damage dealer in pretty much any situation. I haven't tried the A-rank yet, so no comments there.

[RedMussel]

On 2007-12-03 17:34, Typheros wrote:
First one is terrible.

Second one is flippin' awesome.

Third one isn't bad.

Fourth one (coming soon to AoI) is looking very good, although very funny-looking.

I always use the first one, its a awesome PA.

[ShineOnline]

I use the 36K PA for one reason: it's the best single target damage PA that you don't need to spend frags on.
The 10K PA is nice, but there are a few other options that perform similarly, like buten and grav strike, that also give the use of an off-hand weapon.

[Aviendha]

As soon as I saw this thread, I knew somebody would foolishly argue in favor of Bukuu and I wanted to correct them, but Zorafim did it first.


On 2007-12-04 09:25, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-03 22:10, Hrith wrote:
People who say first one is bad and second is good don't know what they're talking about.
At all.

Bukuu Rensen-ga hits three targets each time, stuns monsters and the final part does huge damage.
It is by far the fastest twin claw PA.
It has huge range, and very good radius.
It is also very easy to maneuver.

Renzan Seidan-ga gott a huge damage boost in AoI, but the range and radius are still so crappy.
Dealing high damage is only good if you hit at all.
The radius of that PA is so bad a monster could be 90 degrees from you and not get hit.
This kills the PA.

Uh... Bukuu and Renzan's multi-target moves have about the same reach (poor) and attack arc (good). I can't think of ANY PA's for a single weapon type that have significantly different reach without just being a question of forward movement. If you can deal with one PA and not the other it's just a case of seeing only what you want to see.

Moves that pile damage into a single target are really useful for maximizing damage, and Renzan's the best of the bunch now... much more maneuverable and less expensive than Bogga Robado or Gravity Break.

Bukuu's an awesome PA for damaging multi-target bipeds or fighting swarms of little monsters. It deals a lot of hits really quickly while staggering 3 targets to minimize interruptions.

Between these two, you can use twin claws as a good damage dealer in pretty much any situation. I haven't tried the A-rank yet, so no comments there.


No, it doesn't stagger for shit. That's the problem actually, is that it has next to zero stun, so you get interrupted every time. Rensan also suffers from having almost no stun, which is why it also sucks. Bukuu is better for a very small number of situation on 3+ target enemies, but of the PAs that do best in that situation, its still the worst.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-04 11:39, Aviendha wrote:
As soon as I saw this thread, I knew somebody would foolishly argue in favor of Bukuu and I wanted to correct them, but Zorafim did it first.


Bukuu and I go way back. She had a great figure, but her personality wasn't quite there. Last time we met was on fighting terms.

[Mewnie]

Huh. I like Bukuu. It's not the be all-end-all PA (none really are, IMHO... well, except maybe slicers ;3)

Like jagd said, it's useful in places with lots of enemies or big critters with multiple hitboxes. I really like dancing through a crowd with it, then turning around and knocking another group flat on their ass with the finisher :3

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 11:39, Aviendha wrote:
No, it doesn't stagger for shit. That's the problem actually, is that it has next to zero stun, so you get interrupted every time.

I've never had trouble getting through the first two parts of the PA with it.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-04 13:35, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-04 11:39, Aviendha wrote:
No, it doesn't stagger for shit. That's the problem actually, is that it has next to zero stun, so you get interrupted every time.

I've never had trouble getting through the first two parts of the PA with it.


Unless you're attacking from behind or the monsters have a status that prevents them from attacking you, then you must be the luckiest person in the world.

[panzer_unit]

... or maybe I've got good timing, or maybe groups of small monsters just aren't that difficult. If I can get Jabroga out half the time against a group of those things, Bukuu obviously isn't gonna be a problem. On large monsters someone else can do knockdown and I can make with some really nasty damage.

Bukuu's not so good for medium size guys... they're too big to bunch up that tight in the first place, and vahra or golmoro can jump in from outside your reach. On the other hand, Renzan's perfect.

[Hrith]

How can Renzan be good since it has less range than Bukuu? >_>

Aviendha, your posts clearly show you have no experience of Bukuu, so don't talk about things you don't know.
Bukuu can stunlock Deljabans, since that's where I used it. If it can stunlock Deljabans, it can stunlock about any monster.

The first two hits of Renzan have much narrower radius than the other twin claw PAs, along with crappy range, if you don't realise that, it's because you only have really used Renzan.

Also, Renzan hits 1 target, 2 targets, 3 targets; almost no situation allows for maximum damage from such an inconsistent 'targeting'.


Without calling Renzan Seidan-ga a bad PA, the other two twin claw skills are clearly superior.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-05 07:54, Hrith wrote:
Also, Renzan hits 1 target, 2 targets, 3 targets; almost no situation allows for maximum damage from such an inconsistent 'targeting'.


Small groups of 2-3 enemies. It's quick enough that you can get them all, while focusing on one. My biggest complaint with the PA is that it switches roles every part of the PA, though this does make it well rounded. But, at least it does damage.



Without calling Renzan Seidan-ga a bad PA, the other two twin claw skills are clearly superior.


Is this why everyone prefers it? You really do have to work on your arguments.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-12-05 08:35 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

uh... you can't get less range than Bukuu. Its range sucks.

The first hit of Renzan only targets one monster, hold the freaking lock key while it's going off. It's got ample movement to make up for reach (which isn't worse than bukuu anyway) ... if you're hitting a multi-target creature, or you're beating the stuffing out of one guy while two of his buddies run over to help, you can easily catch 2 and 3 targets on the later moves.
If you can't get enough targets around, just throw in a normal attack and start over with the strong single-target damage part of the move. It's not like you're missing any damage output with only one thing there to hit.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-05 09:21 ]</font>

[Calsetes]

I can't help but paraphrase the Simpsons in situations like this, so here goes:

"Renzan Seidan-ga for some, little American flags for others!"

There, everyone's happy, unless you hate America, and you don't like Renzan Seidan-ga. Personally, I only used Renzan in offline mode, and that was as a backup for my hunter's whip/madoog combo when I was fighting electric enemies. It worked ok, but it was only level 5 or so.

[Zorafim]

That's the point I'm trying to argue. Renzan is the best PA I've used post update, though it may not be the best PA for everyone. He may like Bukuu, but there's no reason to treat it as if it's the best twin claw PA (Which is crazy. It's the most expensive twin claw PA, and obviously the lowest output against a single opponant, not to mention anything it can do Renkai or Dus Robado can do better).

That, and considering it's finals week, I really need to releave some stress.

[MELGRIN]

Bukku is a PA that is 12 "over" and it operates with the second crit appealable. If it works as well as the other prefferable before. It equalls about twice the opposite.

[Kylie]

Bukuu isn't anything special; I only capped it as a fan of twin claws. The UPA is neat in terms of looks, and it does decent damage. Certainly not for the folks that just like to see lots of big numbers, though, and it leaves you open for damage in the last combo. The second one is best according to quite a few people, and I actually agree.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-05 09:03, MELGRIN wrote:
Bukku is a PA that is 12 "over" and it operates with the second crit appealable. If it works as well as the other prefferable before. It equalls about twice the opposite.



Did you stick that post in an internet translator? I can't understand a word of it.

[Aviendha]

I had plenty of experience with Bukuu. Plenty of bad experience. It has decent stun, I guess I was exaggerating, but it still is much easier to get interrupted than Renzan. It doesn't really matter though because the new 10 frag PA is going to blow Bukuu out of the water on damage anyway as it hits the same number of targets on the fist two parts, except 3 times instead of 2 and hits them harder and with more accuracy. Unless it has bad stuns it will make even Renzan obsolete (unless you need that knockup on the second part)

[panzer_unit]

If you're using Bukuu right, it's in a much riskier situation than Renzan.

We'll see about these new PA's. So far all of the PA's released seem fairly even. From the looks of it on YouTube you can do, like, ALL of most PA's in the time it takes to do the first part of the S-ranks.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-05 13:24, panzer_unit wrote:
If you're using Bukuu right, it's in a much riskier situation than Renzan.

We'll see about these new PA's. So far all of the PA's released seem fairly even. From the looks of it on YouTube you can do, like, ALL of most PA's in the time it takes to do the first part of the S-ranks.


That's a really good point. Based on the Youtube vids here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWMrj_MG1gI and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkfG289vEgw, and the stats on the JP wiki here: http://tinyurl.com/3cdafx, you can finish Bukuu or do the first two parts of the new one (3rd part is probably too slow to be worth using anyway) I'd say that the new one will do slightly more damage over time. Assuming that when you use lock-on it doesn't fly right through enemies and miss everything like in the video.

[MrBeans]

I like renzan and so far rensan is ok, too. Once you get used to renzan, it does insane damage versus the right monster, and in combination with the Fuka-misaki ususally freezes on the first part of the combo so no worries about knocking the monster away, either. I want to see a yamata/renzan combo and see how easy it is to stick virus to something. I heard that it's lvl 3 virus? Or is it 1 or 2?

[Mewnie]

I'm not really a fan of that upcoming PA.. looks to me like there's way too much jumping around.

[TranceZiggy]

Renzan, Renzan, Renzan.

Got it memorized?

[Zorafim]

The new one, I'm not confident in. It looks like they just decided to make a joke PA. At first, I loved that they finally made an aquatic looking PA, but it just looks overdone.

[Mystil]

I've mastered the use of Renzan Seidan-ga. Some people just don't know how to properly use the got damn thing. I've never used bukuu myself. I used Rensan plenty before being Renzan exclusive. I don't like Rensan, it has craptastic range and far too slow. I wont take away it's damage potential, it is superior to Renzan in damage, but Renzan doesn't suck in damage either so I'm happy. The first combo doesn't even matter. It's the second and third is where Renzan really shines. Knockup for big damage, and then you hit 3 targets with knockback for big damage. In most cases, enemies arent ALIVE after receiving the final hit.

I wont be using that new PA most likely. I've used Renzan for about 5-6 months and it hasn't let me down and of all the skill PA's in the game, I'm most comfortable with this.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mystil on 2007-12-06 11:40 ]</font>