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UnholyBlood
Dec 4, 2007, 08:07 PM
In Phantasy Star 2 the character 'Rudo (Rudolf) Steiner' describes himself as a 'Professional Biomonster hunter'. On his character status screen it stats his class is 'Hunter'.

Rudo Steiner specialised in guns yet could use knifes and daggers , he also could use no techniques ( maybe representing his pure toughness and lack of int)

I come to the conclusion he is a 'Hunter'.

However some would argue he is a 'Ranger' because of his skill with guns and his uniform and armor type.

So what is your opinion?

My PSO character was a Hunter named 'Rudo Steiner' and so I would greatly accept the feedback on this subject.

Sinue_v2
Dec 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
A Hunter in Phantasy Star classic is a generic term for a freelance mercenary who tracked down and eliminated Biomonsters. Weapon types and skills don't matter. They formed a guild to assist and police each other by PSIV's time. Even in PSO, even though you were a Ranger, you were still considered a Hunter - and reported to the Hunter's Guild.

PSII also had Guardians, like Anna Zirsky, who were basically ex-Hunters who were tasked with hunting down and eliminating Hunters who used their skills for extortion and brigandry.

But in general, like most things, it's best to assume a difference between the terms when going from one series to the next.

pionear
Feb 20, 2008, 11:27 PM
Well, since Rangers in PSO/PSU could use daggers and sabers as well as the Big Guns, I would say Rudo was a Ranger.

HUnewearl_Meira
Feb 21, 2008, 12:56 AM
Listen to Sinue. He knows what he's talking about. The character info display on PSII listed a Profession-- this is not to be confused with a Class. Characters in PSII, and indeed, generally in most RPGs lacking character customization, did not have Classes. Consider that Nei's Profession was listed as "None".

cel
Apr 6, 2008, 06:38 AM
Rudo was undoubtedly a Hunter. As was Chaz in the real sequel to PS II (PS III is a redheaded bastard which we don't speak of).

A Ranger was that blonde 80's-german-looking-guy who used cool laser cannons.

But yeah the dudes above me pretty much nailed the proverbial hammer on the head with detail to spare, however, since I gathered you were comparing classic PS material with modern... my reply was tailored as such.

Zorafim
Apr 16, 2008, 12:43 AM
Yeah, genesis terminology and online PS terminologies don't mix very well. The hunters, rangers, etc. you see in the old games don't mean what weapons they're good at, but rather what professions each character had. Notice there's no agent job in PSO, nor a force job in PSII. It's simply what the character did before joining your group.
This is somewhat more apparent in PSIV, where the jobs are more common terms than seen in PSII.

silverfur
Jun 2, 2008, 08:19 PM
In Phantasy Star 2 the character 'Rudo (Rudolf) Steiner' describes himself as a 'Professional Biomonster hunter'. On his character status screen it stats his class is 'Hunter'.

Rudo Steiner specialised in guns yet could use knifes and daggers , he also could use no techniques ( maybe representing his pure toughness and lack of int)

I come to the conclusion he is a 'Hunter'.

However some would argue he is a 'Ranger' because of his skill with guns and his uniform and armor type.

So what is your opinion?

My PSO character was a Hunter named 'Rudo Steiner' and so I would greatly accept the feedback on this subject.

He's a hunter, they didn't have the ranger class back then, anyone who hunted biomonsters was called a hunter.

So to even suggest he was a ranger would be incorrect.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 2, 2008, 11:54 PM
He's a hunter, they didn't have the ranger class back then, anyone who hunted biomonsters was called a hunter.

So to even suggest he was a ranger would be incorrect.

For what it's worth, if you were to try to define Rudo by PSO's terminology, the most accurate description of him would be to call him a "Ranger", as his selection of equipable weaponry most easily coincides with that of PSO's Ranger class. It might be more accurate yet, however, to try to shoehorn him into PSU's terminology, and suggest that he is a Gunmaster, if not a Fortegunner. This can never apply directly to Phantasy Star II, though if you are trying to describe his nature to a person who has only played recent Phantasy Star installments, then these terms are what you would be at the greatest advantage to use.

silverfur
Jun 3, 2008, 05:40 AM
For what it's worth, if you were to try to define Rudo by PSO's terminology, the most accurate description of him would be to call him a "Ranger", as his selection of equipable weaponry most easily coincides with that of PSO's Ranger class. It might be more accurate yet, however, to try to shoehorn him into PSU's terminology, and suggest that he is a Gunmaster, if not a Fortegunner. This can never apply directly to Phantasy Star II, though if you are trying to describe his nature to a person who has only played recent Phantasy Star installments, then these terms are what you would be at the greatest advantage to use.

Not really, he was a Hunter, that's what he did, it would be incorrect to describe him as anything else.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 3, 2008, 09:12 AM
Not really, he was a Hunter, that's what he did, it would be incorrect to describe him as anything else.

And if you describe a man who works primarily with large guns as a "Hunter" to a person who recognizes that term as a person who works primarily with large melee weapons, do you subsequently convey a correct understanding of what he is, or have you simply confused your friend?

silverfur
Jun 3, 2008, 01:32 PM
And if you describe a man who works primarily with large guns as a "Hunter" to a person who recognizes that term as a person who works primarily with large melee weapons, do you subsequently convey a correct understanding of what he is, or have you simply confused your friend?

A Hunter is a Hunter is a Hunter in the original Phantasy Star Games. Like was said above you can't even compare them really to PSO or PSU anyway. Hell, you can't even compare PSU and PSO.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 3, 2008, 02:02 PM
In certain contexts, comparing a character from a classic game with a newer game does not work, as the terminology does vary; for example, PSII's "Professions" do not match up to PSO's "Classes" at all, as they both describe different things.

Consider this thoroughly, however, as you're clearly not getting the point: In other contexts, however, virtually any combat-geared character can be described by comparing his or her weapons specialties and various abilities to PSO or PSU's class systems, with PSU's being slightly more flexible in this respect. That being said, I can clearly say, "Cloud is like a HUmar," meaning precisely that Cloud of Final Fantasy VII is a male human who specializes in the use of swords and occasionally does magic. This comparison, in no way, indicates that Cloud is, in fact, a HUmar, but it does, however, take advantage of the common understanding of the term, "HUmar" between you and a friend who has apparently never played Final Fantasy VII, to have an independent understanding of "Cloud".

Just the same, I can say, "Rudolf Steiner is like a Gunmaster," which in turn, is not meant to imply that he is a PSU character that can literally have this assignment, but it does provide a person who is familiar with PSU, yet ignorant of Rudo, with a viable comparison to something that he is acquainted with-- A wielder of a variety of large projectile weapons, including rifles, shotguns and laser cannons.

silverfur
Jun 3, 2008, 02:45 PM
In certain contexts, comparing a character from a classic game with a newer game does not work, as the terminology does vary; for example, PSII's "Professions" do not match up to PSO's "Classes" at all, as they both describe different things.

Consider this thoroughly, however, as you're clearly not getting the point: In other contexts, however, virtually any combat-geared character can be described by comparing his or her weapons specialties and various abilities to PSO or PSU's class systems, with PSU's being slightly more flexible in this respect. That being said, I can clearly say, "Cloud is like a HUmar," meaning precisely that Cloud of Final Fantasy VII is a male human who specializes in the use of swords and occasionally does magic. This comparison, in no way, indicates that Cloud is, in fact, a HUmar, but it does, however, take advantage of the common understanding of the term, "HUmar" between you and a friend who has apparently never played Final Fantasy VII, to have an independent understanding of "Cloud".

Just the same, I can say, "Rudolf Steiner is like a Gunmaster," which in turn, is not meant to imply that he is a PSU character that can literally have this assignment, but it does provide a person who is familiar with PSU, yet ignorant of Rudo, with a viable comparison to something that he is acquainted with-- A wielder of a variety of large projectile weapons, including rifles, shotguns and laser cannons.

I got the point, I don't agree with it. He was a Hunter, obviously in the years of the timeline if PS2 and PSO are connected, what a Hunter is changed and so did the weapons they used.

The game says he's a hunter, therefore that's what he is.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 3, 2008, 03:35 PM
I got the point, I don't agree with it. He was a Hunter, obviously in the years of the timeline if PS2 and PSO are connected, what a Hunter is changed and so did the weapons they used.

The game says he's a hunter, therefore that's what he is.

You clearly don't get my point, as your counterpoint is entirely unrelated to what I'm saying. I agree with you that Phantasy Star II specifically states that Rudo is a Hunter, by profession. There is no argument in this respect. In fact, I have a screen shot that demonstrates this fact:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/VanGarrett/PS2-Rudo.gif

As you can see, this character is undeniably a Hunter by profession. This is simple, easily establish truth, and you and I both agree on this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the logical principle that I am apparently failing to explain, however.

Unfortunately, this is communications medium is unsuited for me to properly engage in dialectic with you, so that what I am saying can be properly ground home, but I will nevertheless, attempt to present the information in as vivid a manner possible.

The statement is simply, "Rudo is like a Gunmaster." Let us examine how this works.

The subject of the sentence is "Rudo", who we have established is a character from Phantasy Star 2, whose job title is implicitly, "Hunter". In the context of the game, this specifically means that he hunts Bio-Monsters professionally, to earn his pay. What tools he uses to perform his commission are his own affair.

The sentence's verb is, "is", which is the 3rd person, singular, present-tense indication of "be". The syntax of the verb requires a subject prefixed to the word, and some descriptive term, such as an adjective or preposition following it. In this case, the word links the subject to the word "like" as a preposition, literally meaning, "in like manner with; similarly to; in the manner characteristic of".

The word "like", when used in this manner, makes a comparison to another entity which must be next identified. In this case, that entity is "a Gunmaster". "A", referring to an individual specimen, taken as a generic example. When placed all together, the statement attempts to explain that Rudo and the PSU class, "Gunmaster" have a significant number of common qualities. Note that the statement specifically does not establish identity

As it is, the class, "Gunmaster" is most visibly defined by the variety of weapons it is licensed to use. In this case, that list of weapons prominently features Rifles, Shotguns and Laser Cannons. If you'd like to consider it more generically, we can simplify it down to two-handed guns.

Rudo can likewise be regarded according to the variety of weapons that he uses, as this sort of knowledge is important to anyone playing through Phantasy Star II. The weapons that he uses are, in fact, Rifles, Shotguns and Laser Cannons. If you'd like to consider it more generically, we can simplify it down to two-handed guns.

So we have now established that a significant trait of Gunmasters is that they use two-handed guns, and that a significant trait of Rudo is that he uses two-handed guns. It is therefore illogical to state that Rudo does not share this significant defining quality with the Gunmaster class. Therefore, Rudo has a distinct and apparent similarity to Gunmasters, that merits comparing the two entities when trying to relieve another's ignorance with simple, familiar terms.

Now, I can go and explain all of that, or I can be more succinct about it, and just say, "Rudo is like a Gunmaster". I can describe the similarity between the two with 3 paragraphs, or 5 words. Personally, I believe that the conversation moves a little more quickly if I choose the option to explain it with 5 words.

Simply enough, you are talking about Identity. I am talking about Similarity. These are two different properties, altogether.

silverfur
Jun 3, 2008, 03:58 PM
Simply enough, you are talking about Identity. I am talking about Similarity. These are two different properties, altogether.

Ok, let me state it like this, I don't agree with that assessment. I do not find a similarity between Rudo and a Gunner. I do get what you are saying, as I said, I just don't agree with it.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 3, 2008, 05:13 PM
Ok, let me state it like this, I don't agree with that assessment. I do not find a similarity between Rudo and a Gunner. I do get what you are saying, as I said, I just don't agree with it.

The similarity lies simply in the style of weapons they use-- two-handed guns. To argue that there is no similarity between the two, is to argue that one or the other does not use two-handed guns, which is non-factual. It is the most apparent defining quality of a Gunner, and tactically speaking, the most important quality that Rudo possesses. Therefore, in describing Rudo to a person who is familiar with PSU, but not PSII, the easiest route would be to compare him to a pure-ranger-type, such as Fortegunner or Gunmaster.

silverfur
Jun 4, 2008, 05:24 AM
The similarity lies simply in the style of weapons they use-- two-handed guns. To argue that there is no similarity between the two, is to argue that one or the other does not use two-handed guns, which is non-factual. It is the most apparent defining quality of a Gunner, and tactically speaking, the most important quality that Rudo possesses. Therefore, in describing Rudo to a person who is familiar with PSU, but not PSII, the easiest route would be to compare him to a pure-ranger-type, such as Fortegunner or Gunmaster.

Why are you determined to push your opinion on mine. I don't agree that they are similar. Yes they both use guns, that's it. The classes are so widely different the similarity ends with that one fact. So no, they are not similar, they are not the same. I disagree with you, can you please stop trying to force your view on mine.

Maskim
Jun 4, 2008, 05:37 AM
As stated earlier, he is a hunter. The same as any PSO ranger or force is also a hunter, because they are members of the hunter's guild. They hunt, it's what they do. The fact that Rudo can be more precisely classified as a ranger simply signifies how he goes about doing his job as a hunter.

It's too bad the 16 bit generation didn't offer more space for lettering in the games, they could have listed his profession as HUNTER>RANGER, then we wouldn't need to have this pointless argument. :)

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 4, 2008, 11:38 AM
Why are you determined to push your opinion on mine. I don't agree that they are similar. Yes they both use guns, that's it. The classes are so widely different the similarity ends with that one fact. So no, they are not similar, they are not the same. I disagree with you, can you please stop trying to force your view on mine.

Thus far, I've not yet presented an opinion. "PSU is a good game" is an opinion, the validity of which has been up to enormous debate on this site, since the day the game came out. "Rudo has similarities to Fortegunner" is not an opinion. It is a logical construct based on the observation that Fortegunner's arsenal-- the class's defining characteristic --holds a tremendous amount of overlap with that of Rudo. This similarity is most important in the scenario that I originally proposed-- an attempt to define Rudo by PSO or PSU's terminology, under which circumstances I indicated that your best means of describing him would be to compare him to a Ranger class of some sort. You argue that you don't see any similarities between Rudo and a Ranger class from PSO or PSU, which leads me to suggest this: You tell me how you would solve the trivial scenario of trying to describe this classic Phantasy Star character using terminology from PSO or PSU.

silverfur
Jun 4, 2008, 02:14 PM
Thus far, I've not yet presented an opinion. "PSU is a good game" is an opinion, the validity of which has been up to enormous debate on this site, since the day the game came out. "Rudo has similarities to Fortegunner" is not an opinion. It is a logical construct based on the observation that Fortegunner's arsenal-- the class's defining characteristic --holds a tremendous amount of overlap with that of Rudo. This similarity is most important in the scenario that I originally proposed-- an attempt to define Rudo by PSO or PSU's terminology, under which circumstances I indicated that your best means of describing him would be to compare him to a Ranger class of some sort. You argue that you don't see any similarities between Rudo and a Ranger class from PSO or PSU, which leads me to suggest this: You tell me how you would solve the trivial scenario of trying to describe this classic Phantasy Star character using terminology from PSO or PSU.

First of all, I barely know PSU, I don't really like the game. Second, you cannot use the terms from PSO or PSU to describe stuff from the old games, they aren't even the same thing. I would call Rudo a Hunter in PSO, Not a Ranger.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 4, 2008, 03:32 PM
First of all, I barely know PSU, I don't really like the game. Second, you cannot use the terms from PSO or PSU to describe stuff from the old games, they aren't even the same thing. I would call Rudo a Hunter in PSO, Not a Ranger.

This has already been explained several times in this thread.


A Hunter in Phantasy Star classic is a generic term for a freelance mercenary who tracked down and eliminated Biomonsters. Weapon types and skills don't matter. They formed a guild to assist and police each other by PSIV's time. Even in PSO, even though you were a Ranger, you were still considered a Hunter - and reported to the Hunter's Guild.


The character info display on PSII listed a Profession-- this is not to be confused with a Class. Characters in PSII, and indeed, generally in most RPGs lacking character customization, did not have Classes. Consider that Nei's Profession was listed as "None".


The hunters, rangers, etc. you see in the old games don't mean what weapons they're good at, but rather what professions each character had. Notice there's no agent job in PSO, nor a force job in PSII. It's simply what the character did before joining your group.

If this has managed to go over your head so thoroughly thus far, I will attempt to clarify it: Rudo is a "Hunter" by profession. It explains what he does to earn his money-- not the way he goes about performing his commission. He is a Hunter in the precise sense that RAmars and FOnewearls are Hunters, despite being Rangers and Forces, respectively. They are generically Hunters by profession, but not necessarily by specialty. They are Hunters in the sense that they take a commission to perform tasks asked of them by clients, in the case of PSO and PSIV, as organized by the Hunters' Guild.

In terms of specialties, a Hunter-type in Phantasy Star Online and Phantasy Star Universe, is defined by being a melee specialist. They use swords, sabers, daggers, claws and whatever other close-range weapons may be included in the game. They specialize in these things. A Force in these games, is defined by their use of Techniques as a primary means of attack. A Ranger-type, is defined by having a specialty in Guns. I cannot emphasize this enough: Hunter, Ranger and Force in this context are specialties, not professions. In PSO, all three fall under Hunter as a Profession, but not as a Specialty. This means that in PSO, all Rangers are Hunters. In short: A Ranger is a type of Hunter. To state it in classical logic, a Ranger is necessarily a Hunter, but a Hunter is not necessarily a Ranger.

silverfur
Jun 4, 2008, 07:41 PM
This has already been explained several times in this thread.







If this has managed to go over your head so thoroughly thus far, I will attempt to clarify it: Rudo is a "Hunter" by profession. It explains what he does to earn his money-- not the way he goes about performing his commission. He is a Hunter in the precise sense that RAmars and FOnewearls are Hunters, despite being Rangers and Forces, respectively. They are generically Hunters by profession, but not necessarily by specialty. They are Hunters in the sense that they take a commission to perform tasks asked of them by clients, in the case of PSO and PSIV, as organized by the Hunters' Guild.

In terms of specialties, a Hunter-type in Phantasy Star Online and Phantasy Star Universe, is defined by being a melee specialist. They use swords, sabers, daggers, claws and whatever other close-range weapons may be included in the game. They specialize in these things. A Force in these games, is defined by their use of Techniques as a primary means of attack. A Ranger-type, is defined by having a specialty in Guns. I cannot emphasize this enough: Hunter, Ranger and Force in this context are specialties, not professions. In PSO, all three fall under Hunter as a Profession, but not as a Specialty. This means that in PSO, all Rangers are Hunters. In short: A Ranger is a type of Hunter. To state it in classical logic, a Ranger is necessarily a Hunter, but a Hunter is not necessarily a Ranger.

OMFG you are really annoying the hell out of me. I AM NOT A MORON. I got that, I do not agree with that assesment of it. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, let it go. I would not classify them as similar AT ALL, AT ALL, get it or do I have to explain it any simpler??? Seriously, I don't agree with what you are saying, it isn't a difficult concept to get.

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 5, 2008, 12:34 AM
I do not agree with that assesment of it.
Great. Explain your logic on why you don't agree with it.

silverfur
Jun 5, 2008, 05:09 AM
Great. Explain your logic on why you don't agree with it.

I did, by profession and class I see him as a hunter. As I said, they never had Rangers then so the class has obviously developed in the time between PS2 and PSO.

Maskim
Jun 5, 2008, 06:05 AM
The fact that the class has developed along with the game over the years has little to nothing to do with it. Would it be better, were this a lecture in Phantasy Star History, to state it as:

'By today's standards, Rudo was a skilled Hunter, of the Ranger persuasion'?

HUnewearl_Meira
Jun 5, 2008, 09:03 AM
I did, by profession and class I see him as a hunter. As I said, they never had Rangers then so the class has obviously developed in the time between PS2 and PSO.

All right, and if you had to succinctly describe his specific job skills to a person who is deeply interested in PSO, but completely oblivious to the classic Phantasy Star series, what do you suppose would be the simplest way to go about doing it?

silverfur
Jun 5, 2008, 02:44 PM
Hunter.

Zorafim
Jun 6, 2008, 01:03 AM
This is one of the most one sided arguments I've ever seen. Why are you so adamant about keeping your argument if you aren't going to defend it? And why are you so adamant about keeping technicalities that don't exist?

silverfur
Jun 6, 2008, 05:08 AM
This is one of the most one sided arguments I've ever seen. Why are you so adamant about keeping your argument if you aren't going to defend it? And why are you so adamant about keeping technicalities that don't exist?

I stated my side and I did defend it. I am amazed that whoever this person is they cannot seem to understand that and just drop it. They aren't going to change my mind. Rudo was a hunter, plain and simple, that's what he would be in PSO or PSU or wtf-ever.

Maskim
Jun 6, 2008, 06:05 AM
No it's not. He's only a hunter (aside from the many times stated that hunters, rangers, and forces are all hunters) in PS2, because the game and its system had not evolved yet.

If you're still living in the early 90's, then he's a hunter, plain and simple. If that's the case, get me some gas next time you're out. It's damn expensive here in 2008.

silverfur
Jun 6, 2008, 07:36 AM
No it's not. He's only a hunter (aside from the many times stated that hunters, rangers, and forces are all hunters) in PS2, because the game and its system had not evolved yet.

If you're still living in the early 90's, then he's a hunter, plain and simple. If that's the case, get me some gas next time you're out. It's damn expensive here in 2008.

Whatever, a hunter then, a hunter now. Stop arguing about it.

CelestialBlade
Jun 6, 2008, 10:05 AM
Whatever, a hunter then, a hunter now. Stop arguing about it.
Hah, irony.

It's a simple switching of terminology definition over the years, happens everywhere. Not a big deal.

Maskim
Jun 6, 2008, 04:25 PM
Whatever, a hunter then, a hunter now. Stop arguing about it.

The only reason any one is still arguing about it is because your argument amounts to nothing but 'I'm stubborn and refuse to listen to reason.'

silverfur
Jun 6, 2008, 05:51 PM
The only reason any one is still arguing about it is because your argument amounts to nothing but 'I'm stubborn and refuse to listen to reason.'

I'm not the one who started this ridiculous debate. Say what you want he's a hunter, that's what he is, I'm right and that's really all there is to it. Get over yourselves.

Maskim
Jun 6, 2008, 06:48 PM
I'm not the one who started this ridiculous debate. Say what you want he's a hunter, that's what he is, I'm right and that's really all there is to it. Get over yourselves.
roflcoptor
Conceited much?

When everyone disagrees with you, chances are, you're not omniscient.

silverfur
Jun 7, 2008, 06:25 AM
roflcoptor
When everyone disagrees with you, chances are, you're not omniscient.

You are correct, it is more likely they are morons who cannot grasp a simple concept of the fact the guy is a Hunter.

Maskim
Jun 7, 2008, 04:16 PM
Conceited much?


You are correct, it is more likely they are morons who cannot grasp a simple concept of the fact the guy is a Hunter.


I'll take that as a yes.

silverfur
Jun 7, 2008, 09:52 PM
I'll take that as a yes.

It's not conceit, you started an arguement over something that was incredible stupid.

Maskim
Jun 8, 2008, 01:03 AM
Everyone, I'll repeat that, everyone has said he's a hunter. As such, it would appear that all us 'morons' are able to grasp the simple concept.

In addition, however, the general consensus is that he is more than that; a specialized form of hunter, that was in later years known as a ranger, or gunner type class.

If you really thought this was incredibly stupid, why are you still responding and continuing it? I for one am tired of, and done with this thread. I won't be responding to your taunts again. I also won't be lowering myself to the level of mature debate you've displayed, by tossing out any insults just because someone doesn't think I'm correct... even if I am.

silverfur
Jun 8, 2008, 06:06 AM
Everyone, I'll repeat that, everyone has said he's a hunter. As such, it would appear that all us 'morons' are able to grasp the simple concept.

In addition, however, the general consensus is that he is more than that; a specialized form of hunter, that was in later years known as a ranger, or gunner type class.

If you really thought this was incredibly stupid, why are you still responding and continuing it? I for one am tired of, and done with this thread. I won't be responding to your taunts again. I also won't be lowering myself to the level of mature debate you've displayed, by tossing out any insults just because someone doesn't think I'm correct... even if I am.

Get over yourself, seriously dude, I asked you to stop this like 10 posts ago, YOU kept it going as much as I did. It takes two to make an arguement, so don't think you can shift the blame to me, you're as much at fault (if not moreso) than I am, I tried to stop debating with you over this 2 pages ago.