WT dumped on?

[HaydenX]

I notice the stat boosts and weapon selection for WT, and realize that AT is better in just about every way...Why is ST doing this to WT?

I have an idea as to how to fix it...do the unthinkable. Give whips an additional combo at 21, WT are the only ones that would be able to use it.

[Shadow_Wing]

...wait what?

AT == WT now *strokes chin* how... interesting

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-17 15:39 ]</font>

[Aviva]

i am a Wartecher....and i dont want to be an AT... i DONT like the support to 40 nor the lack of bows. But hey...adding the extra whip combo would pretty much rock a lot

[HaydenX]

I used to be a WT and AT is just so much better. It might have to do with me soloing a lot (AT is the best solo class I've ever played). The fast casting + S rank whips/madoogs makes sure that I can't die. Add in the fast attacking, and even Pistol/Saber is a force to be reckoned with (stunlocking small enemies with regular attacks rocks). I might not like WT as much because I don't really like twin claws very much and maybe it's in my head, but it seems like WT has been left by the wayside in balancing.

[galaxy]

i agree that WT is a bit underbalanced, but take a closer look at them, and you'll realize the differences with AT, what they're supposed to be.

Wartecher's get S ranks in daggers, twin daggers, twin claws, knuckles, and wands (i might be missing something). coupled with their high DEF, it looks like wartechers are supposed to be the "battlemage" type. their weapon selections are short-ranged, multi-hitting, multi-attacking weapons. with 30 attach techs, their effective with gi- and even dam- techs. couple their single dagger with a madoog for healing, and use an S rank wand with, perhaps, cards for your gi- and dam- techs, or even ra- if you need the far hits (base level techs won't be that useful on a WT, since melee attacking will provide better dps). then switch to a twin dagger, claw, or knuckle and get in there.

AT's are more of a support class. they've got S ranks in only right handed weapons, leaving a space open for a madoog (or pistol/fan). their faster attack and casting rates allow them to do numerous things in a shorter period of time. they are not as melee-oriented as WT, but against single or few targets, their melee is effective (with the exception of whips, which are more effective against many targets).

to put it more directly:

Wartecher:
Battlemage type
upfront fighter with multi-hitting, surrounding speciality
30 PA skills and 30 TECHs give them access to decent damage in both fields
high DEF puts them in the front lines

Acrotecher:
Support type
single handed speciality, along with fast casting and attack, allow for multiple purposes simultaneously (or in much shorter intervals)
midline to closer range orientation, but not in the midst of chaos like a Wartecher
40 Support and 30 Attack techs give them strong technic abilities, second only to Fortetecher
Not as melee oriented as other classes, but still effective

...at least, this is what it LOOKS like these classes should be like. i accept that thing are much more in an acrotechers favor, but give Wartecher a def/eva/atp buff (one of those) and they'll become more effective. maybe. i don't really know what i'm talking about.

[Turambar]

While you're at it, lv 5 SEs would be nice for FoGs and FTs.

[HaydenX]

Yeah...that's a good idea /sarcasm. My FoG is way overpowered for a lvl 39. It's just that my AT is so damn versatile that he can't die, that's not to say that it upsets me :rolleyes:

WT used to be the jack of all trades (at least that's how I played mine), but they changed them into almost complete fighters (who can't touch the numbers of a Fortefighter). Oh, well...maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HaydenX on 2007-12-17 16:22 ]</font>

[Dragwind]

galaxy put it well enough.

That should give you a rough idea on the difference between WT and aT. I play both and I like them both. Neither is better than the other, they just have fields they outshine each other in.

[pokefiend]

On 2007-12-17 15:50, HaydenX wrote:
I used to be a WT and AT is just so much better. It might have to do with me soloing a lot (AT is the best solo class I've ever played). The fast casting + S rank whips/madoogs makes sure that I can't die. Add in the fast attacking, and even Pistol/Saber is a force to be reckoned with (stunlocking small enemies with regular attacks rocks). I might not like WT as much because I don't really like twin claws very much and maybe it's in my head, but it seems like WT has been left by the wayside in balancing.

I have a capped Female Newman WT/AT, and I've finished, Awakened Serpent 8 minutes faster soloing as a WT, Dancing Birds 3 minutes faster soloing as a WT, and White Beast 9 minutes faster soloing as a WT. Are you not using Dus Majirra, Renzen Seiden-ga, Gravity Break, or Assault Crush, AT ALL? (which even then I still wouldn't understand how you can solo better as a Acrotecher compared to a Wartecher)

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-17 17:44, pokefiend wrote:

On 2007-12-17 15:50, HaydenX wrote:
I used to be a WT and AT is just so much better. It might have to do with me soloing a lot (AT is the best solo class I've ever played). The fast casting + S rank whips/madoogs makes sure that I can't die. Add in the fast attacking, and even Pistol/Saber is a force to be reckoned with (stunlocking small enemies with regular attacks rocks). I might not like WT as much because I don't really like twin claws very much and maybe it's in my head, but it seems like WT has been left by the wayside in balancing.

I have a capped Female Newman WT/AT, and I've finished, Awakened Serpent 8 minutes faster soloing as a WT, Dancing Birds 3 minutes faster soloing as a WT, and White Beast 9 minutes faster soloing as a WT. Are you not using Dus Majirra, Renzen Seiden-ga, Gravity Break, or Assault Crush, AT ALL? (which even then I still wouldn't understand how you can solo better as a Acrotecher compared to a Wartecher)



I have no PA frag PA's. The survivability of an AT is higher than that of WT IMHO. The fast-cast healing is great. I suppose, on top of this, the last time I was WT, was before AoI. So I guess I could be wrong (I forgot about Majarra...whoops).

[Miyuki-chan]

On 2007-12-17 17:57, HaydenX wrote:

On 2007-12-17 17:44, pokefiend wrote:

On 2007-12-17 15:50, HaydenX wrote:
I used to be a WT and AT is just so much better. It might have to do with me soloing a lot (AT is the best solo class I've ever played). The fast casting + S rank whips/madoogs makes sure that I can't die. Add in the fast attacking, and even Pistol/Saber is a force to be reckoned with (stunlocking small enemies with regular attacks rocks). I might not like WT as much because I don't really like twin claws very much and maybe it's in my head, but it seems like WT has been left by the wayside in balancing.

I have a capped Female Newman WT/AT, and I've finished, Awakened Serpent 8 minutes faster soloing as a WT, Dancing Birds 3 minutes faster soloing as a WT, and White Beast 9 minutes faster soloing as a WT. Are you not using Dus Majirra, Renzen Seiden-ga, Gravity Break, or Assault Crush, AT ALL? (which even then I still wouldn't understand how you can solo better as a Acrotecher compared to a Wartecher)



I have no PA frag PA's. The survivability of an AT is higher than that of WT IMHO. The fast-cast healing is great. I suppose, on top of this, the last time I was WT, was before AoI. So I guess I could be wrong (I forgot about Majarra...whoops).



Only 2/4 of those were frag PAs, and they're not even necessary to kill things really fast but they help with it a lot.
Renzan Seidan-ga and Assault Crush are both vendor PAs, of which I've never touched Assault Crush because of its very high PP cost (60 PP for the full PA on a WT), and I rarely use Renzan Seidan-ga anymore because I much prefer Rensan Senshou-ga(frag PA) due to the higher multi-target damage output.

ATs are very survivable, but the damage output is easily outdone by a reasonably played WT, just based on weapon selection and PAs alone. The WT just casts a little slower and doesnt have the lvl 40 support to throw around.

[gryphonvii]

It all depends on your preferences, I enjoy playing as both, and I'll probably switch up depending on the situation.

[Bitey]

AT better than WT in every possible way? That is a funny joke...

In all seriousness though, melee out damages techniques. This is a fact. WT does more melee damage than AT. This is also a fact. So if WT can out damage an AT in melee and melee out damages Techniques, then WT out damages AT.

There is one example of where WT is better than AT.

To be totally honest though, AT sucks and they will end up as the worst class in the game once everybody levels their PAs. The only thing they are good at is support techniques, which is retarded because GT and FT can do almost as well (you really do not notice the difference between the three). Attack techniques, which are already regarded as the worse DPS PAs in the game, are another strong point for AT, but once we start to see more FT get their Techniques past 30 and after the rod buff, AT techniques are going to become jokes that are merely pitiful attempts for a weak class to add weak damage to the party runs. And AT melee, do not even bother. Every class in the game except for Ranger, GT, and FT has better melee skills than an AT and we all know how much those three classes need their melee...

[pikachief]

so did u all just ignore that sega gave u guys S rank twin claws and fists? or do u not care?

[gryphonvii]

yay s-ranks that I actually have and love to use, I love twin claws, especially fuka for the freeze. sleep on the skela is a bit useles though.

[Broodstar1337]

On 2007-12-17 21:15, Bitey wrote:
AT better than WT in every possible way? That is a funny joke...

In all seriousness though, melee out damages techniques. This is a fact. WT does more melee damage than AT. This is also a fact. So if WT can out damage an AT in melee and melee out damages Techniques, then WT out damages AT.

There is one example of where WT is better than AT.

To be totally honest though, AT sucks and they will end up as the worst class in the game once everybody levels their PAs. The only thing they are good at is support techniques, which is retarded because GT and FT can do almost as well (you really do not notice the difference between the three). Attack techniques, which are already regarded as the worse DPS PAs in the game, are another strong point for AT, but once we start to see more FT get their Techniques past 30 and after the rod buff, AT techniques are going to become jokes that are merely pitiful attempts for a weak class to add weak damage to the party runs. And AT melee, do not even bother. Every class in the game except for Ranger, GT, and FT has better melee skills than an AT and we all know how much those three classes need their melee...



With your way of thinking, everyone should be a Beast Fortefighter, save for the Newman Acrotecher that nurses you to full health constantly because you're too much of a putz to keep yourself alive and buffed.

Out of curiousity, have you ever played AT? They're like Wartechers in a sense that they're well rounded and capable of all types of combat. AT to classes is like Humans to race; not the best at anything but can do everything. All those fighting options become really useful when you're out on the field.

Your comment about how AT buffs aren't a cut above a GT/FT's buffs are laughable. Let me take you back to reality; there IS a difference between lvl 21 buffs and lvl 31 buffs. Contrary to whatever skewered research you've conducted on the matter, lvl 31 buffs last longer and boost stats more than lvl 21 buffs.

I don't know if you saw this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDFgGxHxhyU), but by no means are ATs slouches at attack techs. In fact, during the Rammegid example, the player kills the entire mob faster as an AT with Har/Quick than a Psycho Wand with Har/Quick AND Sori/Tech Charge. In fact, the only thing that outdamaged an AT's leveled AoE attack was a Psycho Wand using a Dam- spell as per this exhibition.

So please... ATs as the worst class? You're not fooling me, pal.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-17 21:27, pikachief wrote:
so did u all just ignore that sega gave u guys S rank twin claws and fists? or do u not care?


Fixed-element S-ranks are of limited usefulness, so Fuka/Yamata and Skela are kinda...meh. I mean, the SEs are nice, but not so nice that I wouldn't rather use a more appropriate element (granted Dark is good right now, so Yamata is pretty good...for now). And while there are many Beast WTs, there are also tons of Newman and Human WTs, so Gudda Hon is not exactly an option for a large portion of the WT community. The new S-ranks are overall not as outstanding as people would like to think they are.

[gryphonvii]

love dammegid

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Hopefully there might be some Tenora S rank claws and Yohmei S rank fists if there's an S rank yohmei Axe, Spear, Rifle, Double Saber, and Laser Cannon and such. Lets see if they exist in the future and see how they work out.

[Shadow_Wing]

On 2007-12-17 21:15, Bitey wrote:
lolATsucks


Right. My AT is weak. Right.

Acrotecher is the perfect team class, and does support a many times better than a fT and a GT hell even combined. AT melee isn't by any means weak either, not super broken but it does the job and helps in the support of the team even more.

A GOOD AT makes the team perform better.

[Tita]

any time i don the WT mantel, i hear this:
http://carrie.ytmnd.com/

but not so much after last week's update http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tita on 2007-12-17 22:27 ]</font>

[Poncho_Jr]

You guys have great, if not the best, soloing capabilty.

[HaydenX]

By you guys, do you mean WT or AT?

[SolomonGrundy]

With the changes to FT, the only thing AT is good at is party support. If you want to support, AT is a great job.

Every other job besides FT far outdamages AT in melee damage, and thier ranged damage is low. Tech damage used to be thier highpoint, but as of last thursday, AT went from doing 75% of the damage a FT can do, to 50%.

WTs one weakness is thier buff duration, other than thier the S rank selection is (now) great, and thier stats are quite usable.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-12-17 23:04 ]</font>

[Shadow_Wing]

On 2007-12-17 23:02, SolomonGrundy wrote:
With the changes to FT, the only thing AT is good at is party support. If you want to support, AT is a great job.

Every other job besides FT far outdamages AT in melee damage, and thier ranged damage is low. Tech damage used to be thier highpoint, but as of last thursday, AT went from doing 75% of the damage a FT can do, to 50%.

WTs one weakness is thier buff duration, other than thier the S rank selection is (now) great, and thier stats are quite usable.


Yup and why I love AT so much, generally I have a fairly balanced team of a fT, heavy melee DD, range and myself so I'm always dealing with the small stuff like healing, buffings and keeping everyone on their toes, while everyone else deals damage. My damage isn't as lame as most people say it is though(it's pretty decent), but it is weak compared to the ones who specialize in melee damage.

[Laranas]

I'm a WT that switched to AT because I hit 15... and I can't say I really like ATs all that much. My damage output is a lot lower thanks to lower ATP and attack speed (sounds funny, but I haven't adjusted to the new JA timing at all). I miss being able to use my 9/9 Hanmateric and full Lv30 PAs, and I miss being able to take an SE like Freeze, Stun, or Sleep without worrying about death.

Lv31+ buffs are nice, but I haven't gotten the privilege of having such technics. After 2 nights (4-6 hours each) of buff parties without a Me or Har / Quick, only 3 of my buffs are at 21+ and the other support skills at 11+. Frankly, with the speed a full party kills at, I don't see the need to bring it any higher than 21+ (which WT doesn't get, but FT and GT do).

Maybe it's because I didn't have any attack technics from being a WT, but I feel extremely limited as an AT with weapon selection. In the end I always seem to have to switch back to whips if I want to do anything more than tag. So maybe my view of the class is skewed since I'm half-assing the tech department, but I'd still take WT anyday.

[Kelvie]

Hum... You probably are deceived by AT because you wanna play it just like you used to play WT, and AT doesn't work that way. (well, it depend on how you played WT)

WT (or at last WT like most peoples play it) play a lot like a fortefighter, with use of cards and bow in some situation such as flying bosses or melee resistant ennemies, while AT is all about buffs and versatility.
AT's weapon selection is far from being weak, especially since they got so many s-ranks, but their weapons aren't all about dps, but more about the ability to keep a hand free.
They got decent weapons in all categories, and even some awesome ones (<3 s-rank whips), but they doesn't have the weapons of high dps like shotgun, crossbow, spear, or knuckles. They got good weapon with decent atp and good ATA, and their strenght, is all about mixing all thoses weapons together, and with support, for high fun and versatility or high surviving potential (depending of your playstyle) more than high damage output.

[majan]

we are shifting through this game's jobs with different sets of complaints for each.

I am thrilled to see which class ends up on the chopping block next.

but,yes,galaxy put it quite simply. the only thing that kept me from going wartecher was the deep down love I have for wizards in RPGs so I had to satisfy that and go pure FT. otherwise, wartecher in theory is awesome,and wartecher in practice is awesome. you trade a little bit of ATP(only atp,really,the HP is second best in the whole game,mind you,this for any kind of mage results in enormous suvivability) for a whole lot of versatility,especially now with madoogs. wartechers have an answer for just about anything. half-decent bullet support,good tech offense now bolstered by s rank wands, a few extra melee s ranks...people just need to learn how to mix it all together thats all. level 30 megid is just about as good as level 30 killer shot. wartecher is a phenomenal soloing class because of this versatility.

learn to take advantage of it and youll be quite satisfied with the class,I'd assume.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Galaxy and Majan are right though. I tried out AT on my female newman for kicks and the speed bonus was appealing, but then I decided to switch back to WT since AT felt a bit weak to me, and I got a Har / Quick that I can use on my WT for offensive techs and resta.

Wartecher is a bit of a red mage that can do both melee and attack magic, Acrotecher is a white mage, they have that speed bonus and S rank madoogs is so that they can cast a super fast resta or reverser during emergencies. I even add a Har / Quick on top of that too.

But yeah, for my newman, I like Wartecher better. Better ATP, HP, melee ability, selection of weapons, just as capable with attack spells while only missing out in a small amount of TP (1331 as AT vs. 1181 as WT). There's no speed bonus for WT, but I can just add a Har / Quick and I'll be fine. Also, Wartecher is stronger with whips due to their higher ATP and level 30 skills. Besides, the S rank twin claws will better suit the HUnewearl image.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-12-18 08:03 ]</font>

[Rizen]

After reading this thread, I can only further see why there are so many fail Acrotechers out there...

[Laranas]

On 2007-12-18 05:32, Kelvie wrote:
WT (or at last WT like most peoples play it) play a lot like a fortefighter, with use of cards and bow in some situation such as flying bosses or melee resistant enemies, while AT is all about buffs and versatility.

WT is all about versatility for me. I can dish out good melee, switch to a bow for range, support the party with technics (although they're not Lv21+ I can still Resta, Reverser, and all that good stuff). I can also live long enough to use said support skills on the party.


AT's weapon selection is far from being weak, especially since they got so many s-ranks, but their weapons aren't all about dps, but more about the ability to keep a hand free.I have no problem keeping a WT's hands free, especially with madoogs. Sure, they don't have S rank for everything, but the only 1-handed weapons they don't have is Mechguns and Slicers iirc, and frankly I don't judge a class on S-ranks because a grinded A-rank will do the job well.


They got decent weapons in all categories, and even some awesome ones (<3 s-rank whips), but they doesn't have the weapons of high dps like shotgun, crossbow, spear, or knuckles. They got good weapon with decent atp and good ATA, and their strength, is all about mixing all those weapons together, and with support, for high fun and versatility or high surviving potential (depending of your play style) more than high damage output.
Aside from specific weapons mentioned, this quote describes how I feel about WT, not AT. Part of the problem I have with AT is that I'm not a very big fan of ranged weapons, and they're part Ranger. That leaves me with a bit of melee and technics that I don't have.

I'm not saying they're bad, but I'd roll as a WT any day of the week.

[-Asheth-]

On 2007-12-17 17:57, HaydenX wrote:

On 2007-12-17 17:44, pokefiend wrote:

On 2007-12-17 15:50, HaydenX wrote:
I used to be a WT and AT is just so much better. It might have to do with me soloing a lot (AT is the best solo class I've ever played). The fast casting + S rank whips/madoogs makes sure that I can't die. Add in the fast attacking, and even Pistol/Saber is a force to be reckoned with (stunlocking small enemies with regular attacks rocks). I might not like WT as much because I don't really like twin claws very much and maybe it's in my head, but it seems like WT has been left by the wayside in balancing.

I have a capped Female Newman WT/AT, and I've finished, Awakened Serpent 8 minutes faster soloing as a WT, Dancing Birds 3 minutes faster soloing as a WT, and White Beast 9 minutes faster soloing as a WT. Are you not using Dus Majirra, Renzen Seiden-ga, Gravity Break, or Assault Crush, AT ALL? (which even then I still wouldn't understand how you can solo better as a Acrotecher compared to a Wartecher)



I have no PA frag PA's. The survivability of an AT is higher than that of WT IMHO. The fast-cast healing is great. I suppose, on top of this, the last time I was WT, was before AoI. So I guess I could be wrong (I forgot about Majarra...whoops).



OP un-informed and didnt take time to try for themselves. He based his opinion on last recall of class even though AOI added dramatic changes to WT in AOI sums this post up completely. No IDEA just posted for conversation I guess.

Any WT would and should have dus majarra. If your an AT and are using a Handgun even if its a Viper then you should quit cards GRM and Yohmei are better period. So handgun is a waste of a S-rank slot. WT is better than it was in Vanilla PSU. Dont compare each class with a different type compare among common types IE techer classes. WT cant be compared to the other Fighters it has to be looked at relative to the other techer classes.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-18 09:09 ]</font>

[Bitey]

Your comment about how AT buffs aren't a cut above a GT/FT's buffs are laughable. Let me take you back to reality; there IS a difference between lvl 21 buffs and lvl 31 buffs. Contrary to whatever skewered research you've conducted on the matter, lvl 31 buffs last longer and boost stats more than lvl 21 buffs.

Skewered research? I thought it was common knowledge that the difference between lvl 21 and 31 buffs was only 5%, or am I missing some super AT secret that only retards know? Level 31 Shifta only adds like 20 extra damage to physical attacks, 'nuff said... And as for Resta/Giresta and reverser, at level 21+ I have no problem completely healing somebodies life bar as a Beast Male Guntecher and any extra range really is not needed. Since Resta/Giresta and reverser are just on overkill mode by level 31+, the only thing you have left to brag about are buffs are buffs, and quite frankly you are deluding yourself by thinking that an extra 5% boost from your extra tier of buffs is ground breaking enough to cover your classes short commings. To anybody in a party, Guntecher and Fortetecher support is just fine and barely even distinguishable from Acrotecher support.


With your way of thinking, everyone should be a Beast Fortefighter

And what a marvelous way to showcase your inability to read context clues. I was merely replying to one example of how a WT is better than a AT, nothing more or less. By all means, if you want to put words in my mouth to make me look like a melee superiority entusiest, go ahead, but you are just looking dumber and dumber as you continue to make poor flaming attempts absed on a scenario you made up in your head.


I don't know if you saw this video, but by no means are ATs slouches at attack techs. In fact, during the Rammegid example, the player kills the entire mob faster as an AT with Har/Quick than a Psycho Wand with Har/Quick AND Sori/Tech Charge. In fact, the only thing that outdamaged an AT's leveled AoE attack was a Psycho Wand using a Dam- spell as per this exhibition.

So please... ATs as the worst class? You're not fooling me, pal.

Do you have any clue how damage works in this game? ATP and TP do not mean very much. The largest deciding factor in who deals more damage is who has the higher PA levels. AT stops at level 20 melee! A WT with a lvl 30 whip PA can pass level 110/15 AT level 20 Whip PA damage at level 50! The same goes for well leveled techniques and even more so. For every level you have in a technique you not only get a boost to the TP modifier but you also get added elemental. Of course if you compare two classes based on TP and with PAs that are only 1 level apart, the faster class will shine more, but just wait until a video comes out with a FT sporting a Har / Quick and a good Rod with level 40 techniques; I am sure you will cry when you realize how much time you have wasted on your AT.

[Zorak000]

Whip damage study: F newman lv 110 and 2nd 1/2 of vishi grudda vs. White Beast S kwaline
WT 10 - lv 30 Vishi grudda - 46% dark vish tien: 6-700ish w/o buffs 8-900ish w/buffs
AT 10 - lv 20 vishi grudda - 30% Vish Adan: 4-500ish w/o buffs 7-800ish w/buffs

but that is just whips, use this info as you will

[chaostroop3]

WT almost only class that can use dagger of safari

[majan]

On 2007-12-18 09:48, chaostroop3 wrote:
WT almost only class that can use dagger of safari



indeed.unfortunately, fighgunners outnumber wartechers by a number of roughly 2000 to 1,at least on the 360 servers.

[Ken_Silver]

Usually arguments like this can't be boiled down to a simple one liner, but I'll give it a shot here. WARtechers have higher attack and defense while ACROtechers are faster and are more efficent with Technics. In the end, both classes can accomplish the same task, it's all about how you want to do it: Road A or Road B