Wartecher?

[zanotam]

Whatever happened to the plans for WT? Last time I actively played AoI was relatively newly announced, and I personally was looking foward to the improvements in WT, and maybe even playing some of that new Acrotecher class, but I've just come back, and it's like they split WT in half and once again WT is only class without max PA. Have WT been forgotten? Replaced by AT? Does anyone still play them?

Oh, and me and Golden Falcon are back into PSU if anyone remember us still.

[dc534]

I feel you there but you might as well go AT since you movements are faster, even with daggers and such, your dps is probably around the same and you are more useful to the group. I wish WT would get an increase in power, at least as much if not more than FiG I think that would really do them justice, maybe give them 40 skills. Mostly the increase in ATP would be the best thing for them at this point.

[mvffin]

WT does need something new. I'm hoping for A slicer, S bow, more ATP, 30 support.

I really want to like WT, but it just seems outclassed by EVERYTHING ELSE.

[Sekani]

The acro-classes stomped on the toes of all the hybrids except protranser. Now a lot of wartechers, fighgunners, and guntechers are looking for reasons to justify their existence.

[zanotam]

While, I do find the boost to my base stats nice (Yay, I can use basic A rank melee weapons at lvl 40, big whoopdeedoo!), the fact is that when using equal equipment (bows) or even when using my a rank wands against c rank staffs assuming the spell is equal level, I'm being out damaged or doing about the same as a 6 force, lvl 20 Female cast, as on my level 2 WT, 40 female human, my friend is outdamaging me or equalling me. How is that NOT proof WT is in bad straights.

[VetroDrago]

Haha! WT all the way. It has what I love, twin claws, techs, twin daggers, swords, cards, bows, and whips. I still see alot of WT around. The only thing I want is S rank swords and maybe lvl 21-30 support, mainly cuz of megistar. WT are the kickass techers.

[Kylie]

I agree. I love WT for the concept of fighting and casting, but I've had to switch to fF recently and probably for a while because I want to cap my skills. My skills were mostly at LV30 already when AOI came out, so I felt like I had nothing to do once I got all the MP I needed. I guess I could live with the LV30 cap, but combined with the lack of ATP, the class doesn't seem like it's worth playing.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-03-19 10:25, Kylie wrote:
I guess I could live with the LV30 cap, but combined with the lack of ATP, the class doesn't seem like it's worth playing.


Have you tried your attack techs yet? Protranser's in the same boat for ATP and melee skills, but high-level bullet skills and a good selection of guns make it a lot more fun to play and much more capable when solo.

[Lamak]

I love WT, but it is gimped in too many areas for me to truely enjoy playing it like I used to.

[panzer_unit]

... wait, WT is MORE gimped than it was back with lv20 skills?

[Kylie]

On 2008-03-19 10:46, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-03-19 10:25, Kylie wrote:
I guess I could live with the LV30 cap, but combined with the lack of ATP, the class doesn't seem like it's worth playing.


Have you tried your attack techs yet? Protranser's in the same boat for ATP and melee skills, but high-level bullet skills and a good selection of guns make it a lot more fun to play and much more capable when solo.



I'm a beast, so I don't rely on TECHNICs as my main source for damage (I do use them, but mostly just in situations where they're needed), and I honestly have to say I don't like using range weapons for various reasons - just my preference.

[MSAksion]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj296/AksionTeam/Forum%20Pictures/WTvsAT.jpg

Anyone wonder why a support job like AT has only -40 something DEF points under a WarTecher - the frontline combat Paladin?

SO i guess whipping up front is pretty good idea right?

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-03-19 11:53, Kylie wrote:
I'm a beast, so I don't rely on TECHNICs as my main source for damage (I do use them, but mostly just in situations where they're needed)

I'll be doing the same as a CAST when I pick up WT after the PA leveling boost. I hope they'll come in useful for those situations where melee doesn't work well.

[mll]

On 2008-03-19 12:22, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-03-19 11:53, Kylie wrote:
I'm a beast, so I don't rely on TECHNICs as my main source for damage (I do use them, but mostly just in situations where they're needed)

I'll be doing the same as a CAST when I pick up WT after the PA leveling boost. I hope they'll come in useful for those situations where melee doesn't work well.




They just about get the job done but their not in the same league as Protransers ranged ability.
My wartecher is actually playing around with figunner at the moment and the one thing i really miss was WT all round defence.
With figunner i'm running around looking for openings to avoid getting mauled, with wartecher i just plough through them and cast resta, it really does help bring wartechers damage output up a lot closer to a FG ... until you take out a doublesaber (im surprised by how good they are).
But yeah acrotechers stats are far too close to WT.
Once you throw on the extra 10% from buffs and the extra attack speed the mellee output is much the same, mechguns really push up an acro's ranged damage, and their tech damage is just plain better.

ATP after buffs.
Acor 932 + 186 = 1118
WT 1053 + 105 = 1158

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mll on 2008-03-19 12:48 ]</font>

[zanotam]

While I do understand that Beast and even some Casts are at least somewhat happy with the class, humans and newmans are the ones who get bonuses for the class and it's 5 force 3 hunter, not the other way, and yet since I've come back the only cool thing I've found useful are those castey mag thingies and whips. Shouldn't WT get at least 30 on the support spells and whats up with the fact that WT STILL has the least S ranks and still no Max PA, and we were really struggling to find an identity and then they give WT a bunch of melee upgrades? Seriously? There are non-beast WT's and as one of those, I find whip to be the only new thing I'm getting any use out of. So, I guess I'm wondering what the reasoning behind the changes were, and whether it had anything to do with player input, because I didn't know any WT that wanted to stay gimped. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Edit: Sorry if this is a little rantish, I'm just completely flabergasted by the changes that have been done to WT.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zanotam on 2008-03-19 14:30 ]</font>

[mvffin]

On 2008-03-19 11:29, panzer_unit wrote:
... wait, WT is MORE gimped than it was back with lv20 skills?



Considering how much better all the other classes are, yes.

[zanotam]

On 2008-03-19 18:38, mvffin wrote:

On 2008-03-19 11:29, panzer_unit wrote:
... wait, WT is MORE gimped than it was back with lv20 skills?



Considering how much better all the other classes are, yes.


I believe this is *QFT* worthy

[dc534]

I would like to see these changes with WT:

keep ATP the same, for those who dont know it breaks down like this: 126% WT, 134% AF, 144% FiG, 185% fF
increase skill cap from 30-40, however in doing this they would have to nerf the whip ultimate pa because if you have seen anyone ever use the ultimate it is actually better than a grenade launcher.

That is about all I would like to see with this class is increase in skill cap. they would be weaker fighters than FiG and AF but still much stronger than AT, because right now taking into consideration that they are much faster with their moves, they have probably equal DPS with melee as WT which that should not be the case.
This would make this class playabe

[Talise]

I thought AT only got a speed boost in casting...AF gets the boost in melee...?

[Jakosifer]

Yes AT gets a speed boost in both casting and melee, since it only has 4 melee weapons, all of which are relatively quick weapons anyway its not quite as noticable as it is with AF.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jakomay_07 on 2008-03-19 20:47 ]</font>

[dc534]

I have seen it for myself, AT with whips are wicked. 1400s from whips are no joke, he may take of more than my PT with that whip.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-03-19 20:39, dc534 wrote:
That is about all I would like to see with this class is increase in skill cap. they would be weaker fighters than FiG and AF but still much stronger than AT, because right now taking into consideration that they are much faster with their moves, they have probably equal DPS with melee as WT which that should not be the case.


At their absolute best AT are equal to WT (also whipping)... against fewer than 6 monsters there's no way they're keeping up with WT's moves using Knuckles, Twin Claws, or Swords

I'd rather see WT get a power-up on the tech side, making the look more like Protranser vs Fortegunner. There are so many fighting classes already, and NO second-best attack tech caster... WT, AT, and GT (soon) are all pretty distant second bests with neither rods nor lv40 techinics.

[Talise]

I kinda agree. The whole point of guntecher and wartecher is to be a mix. While guntechers now have good support abilities(lvl 30 support, decent healing for ANY race), wartecher isn't dealing enough technic damage to make it worthwhile, and it's already been pointed out that their melee damage output is low in comparison to many classes.

[Kylie]

I'd rather WT get an attack boost, but that's only because of the way I personally use WT. I probably wouldn't use it if TECHs played a huge role in it, honestly; however, thinking about a TECHer's perspective, I agree it'd be nice to have a true second-to-FT class. I think it was meant to be in some sense, but it falls short and is kind of in an "I don't know what I am" stage. It'd be nice for them to decide if it's a fighting class, or a TECHNIC class. I'd like it if they split WT into two classes though (melee + some attack spells and attack spells + some melee). That way everyone is happy, and we don't have a class that has so many different roles. Then again, maybe it was meant to be the "human of the expert classes." You know, in the sense where it's not good or bad at anything, which is frustrating for someone that wants a good link between melee and attack spells (me). http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2008-03-20 10:18 ]</font>

[Jakosifer]

Heres a few things that I think Wartecher will need to stay up to par (Statistic wise) with the current classes, feel free to bash me, its an opinion. =>

- A bit more ATP, maybe a 10-15% boost is all (I mean come on, a Fortegunner can outmelee a Wartecher now, thats just plain stupid)
- Much more DFP (As the "Paladin" of the game, it shouldn't have less Defense than the "Ninja" of the game..I'm lookin at you Acrofighter <_<)
- Higher TP would make Attack techs actually more usable.
- Level 30 Support (I don't think its actually NECESSARY but it would be nice)

Weapon wise I say they need S rank in Single Sabers and TSCM's.

Thats all I gotz. Will it ever happen: Helllllllllll naw

[mll]

I'd second the make attack techs useful. I think they'd need to change the ... equations or whatever to make attack techs useful. Like we'd realistically need a fT's TP before it starts catching up with our melee.
To be honest though i think WT only real problem is the fact that the acro classes exist. We're fairly balanced with the figunners and fortechers of the game.
I'd say the best fix for wartecher would be to gimp the two acro classes (and sort out attack techs, their damage is pitiful regardless of class)

[Lamak]

My personal opinion:

- S rank Claw to Wartecher.
- Rework technic damage system to make them useful for all tech using classes.
- ATP Boost.
- MAYBE 40 Attack Techs (If FT gets 50 Techs something could be worked out)

[panzer_unit]

How much damage would techs have to do to be balanced with WT melee? For me, I figure 1000 per target from some of the multi-target stuff like zonde/barta/ra/nos would make it play. It's got nothing on Ikk Hikk damage, or a good sword, but a bit less is still pretty respectable especially since they shoot pretty fast and let you hit from range.

I dunno how close I could get to that with my Cast, it'll be ages before I've got a lv30 ra-tech and WT15 to give it a real try.

[Tsavo]

I personally would like lvl 30 buffs because of how I play as WT. However, I think it would be great on ST's part if they could differentiate the class a little bit. Like others have said there is no serious teching class outside of ft and WT tp is so low its only really useful for megid and healing. It'd be great to see them get something like the tp boost GT is getting and/or lvl 40 techs. Ft's exclusive lvl 40 techs is just fuckin stupid. Its not like any other class will ever touch their tech damage anyway.

[zanotam]

I finally found a use for WT. Since all the techers around my level I've met so far are rather rude, I finally found a use! I'm rather hard to kill, so I just run around spamming resta/reverser, buffs, and when needed taking hits for the team. The new WT motto: When **** hits the fan, we hit back!

[SStrikerR]

On 2008-03-18 11:54, Sekani wrote:
The acro-classes stomped on the toes of all the hybrids except protranser. Now a lot of wartechers, fighgunners, and guntechers are looking for reasons to justify their existence.

Two words: double sabers.
That gives fighs a reason to live.
I can't wait to see noobgunner posts XD.

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-20 19:34, Ryan113 wrote:

On 2008-03-18 11:54, Sekani wrote:
The acro-classes stomped on the toes of all the hybrids except protranser. Now a lot of wartechers, fighgunners, and guntechers are looking for reasons to justify their existence.

Two words: double sabers.
That gives fighs a reason to live.
I can't wait to see noobgunner posts XD.

That, and spears, swords, twins, xbows, lvl 40 skills, lvl 30 bullets...Should I go on? =D

[Talise]

On 2008-03-20 16:08, Tsavo wrote:
I personally would like lvl 30 buffs because of how I play as WT. However, I think it would be great on ST's part if they could differentiate the class a little bit. Like others have said there is no serious teching class outside of ft and WT tp is so low its only really useful for megid and healing. It'd be great to see them get something like the tp boost GT is getting and/or lvl 40 techs. Ft's exclusive lvl 40 techs is just fuckin stupid. Its not like any other class will ever touch their tech damage anyway.


How is it stupid when every other class can do decent melee damage when fortetecher can't. They NEED the technic advantage to survive.

[Tsavo]

On 2008-03-20 20:21, Talise wrote:

On 2008-03-20 16:08, Tsavo wrote:
I personally would like lvl 30 buffs because of how I play as WT. However, I think it would be great on ST's part if they could differentiate the class a little bit. Like others have said there is no serious teching class outside of ft and WT tp is so low its only really useful for megid and healing. It'd be great to see them get something like the tp boost GT is getting and/or lvl 40 techs. Ft's exclusive lvl 40 techs is just fuckin stupid. Its not like any other class will ever touch their tech damage anyway.


How is it stupid when every other class can do decent melee damage when fortetecher can't. They NEED the technic advantage to survive.


Ft has rods and tp far and above that of any other class. No one is catching up to them in tech damage. Currently using attack techs on any other teching class isn't a good idea, they fire slowly and don't do enough damage to justify using them over bullets/melee. The other two fortes share their lvl 40 skills with a number of the hybrids, why not ft?

[Talise]

then bring up the ATP of fortetecher first so they still have a reason to exist after you take away their sole advantage.

[zanotam]

On 2008-03-20 20:37, Tsavo wrote:

On 2008-03-20 20:21, Talise wrote:

On 2008-03-20 16:08, Tsavo wrote:
I personally would like lvl 30 buffs because of how I play as WT. However, I think it would be great on ST's part if they could differentiate the class a little bit. Like others have said there is no serious teching class outside of ft and WT tp is so low its only really useful for megid and healing. It'd be great to see them get something like the tp boost GT is getting and/or lvl 40 techs. Ft's exclusive lvl 40 techs is just fuckin stupid. Its not like any other class will ever touch their tech damage anyway.


How is it stupid when every other class can do decent melee damage when fortetecher can't. They NEED the technic advantage to survive.


Ft has rods and tp far and above that of any other class. No one is catching up to them in tech damage. Currently using attack techs on any other teching class isn't a good idea, they fire slowly and don't do enough damage to justify using them over bullets/melee. The other two fortes share their lvl 40 skills with a number of the hybrids, why not ft?


Maybe I'm just confused, but a human AT has between about 5-10% difference in tp and mst and yet all the other stats are far and above better. Humans at least have very little reason to choose WT or FT now that AT is such a good choice.

[Tsavo]

On 2008-03-20 20:56, Talise wrote:
then bring up the ATP of fortetecher first so they still have a reason to exist after you take away their sole advantage.


Nothing is being taken away. Like I just said, NONE of the other classes will touch ft tech damage with their high tp and rod boost. Throw in things like psychowand, okarod set, etc and you have a gap that won't be bridged anytime soon. Level 40 techs wouldn't make up this diffenrece either(and for good reason)but it might give WT a real reason to use attack techs for once(outside of megid on bots).

[Tsavo]

On 2008-03-20 21:00, zanotam wrote:

On 2008-03-20 20:37, Tsavo wrote:

On 2008-03-20 20:21, Talise wrote:

On 2008-03-20 16:08, Tsavo wrote:
I personally would like lvl 30 buffs because of how I play as WT. However, I think it would be great on ST's part if they could differentiate the class a little bit. Like others have said there is no serious teching class outside of ft and WT tp is so low its only really useful for megid and healing. It'd be great to see them get something like the tp boost GT is getting and/or lvl 40 techs. Ft's exclusive lvl 40 techs is just fuckin stupid. Its not like any other class will ever touch their tech damage anyway.


How is it stupid when every other class can do decent melee damage when fortetecher can't. They NEED the technic advantage to survive.


Ft has rods and tp far and above that of any other class. No one is catching up to them in tech damage. Currently using attack techs on any other teching class isn't a good idea, they fire slowly and don't do enough damage to justify using them over bullets/melee. The other two fortes share their lvl 40 skills with a number of the hybrids, why not ft?


Maybe I'm just confused, but a human AT has between about 5-10% difference in tp and mst and yet all the other stats are far and above better. Humans at least have very little reason to choose WT or FT now that AT is such a good choice.


You could say that. That gets into a whole different realm though. Like a AT will never hit WT melee damage, with their access to spears, swords, knux, etc. and lvl 30 skills. Likewise if one wants tech damage ft is still the obvious choice. What you seem to be adressing is what one wants out of a class vs my issue with WT's need for retooling.

[zanotam]

I totally agree that WT need retooling. Unfortunately, until they get it what choice do you have if you still want to be useful to a group? I was the thread starter though if you didn't notice and I totally agree that WT needs to be given a clear reason to exist besides "oh, look, you get melee AND techniques, lucky you!"

[Talise]

On 2008-03-20 21:30, Tsavo wrote:

On 2008-03-20 20:56, Talise wrote:
then bring up the ATP of fortetecher first so they still have a reason to exist after you take away their sole advantage.


Nothing is being taken away. Like I just said, NONE of the other classes will touch ft tech damage with their high tp and rod boost. Throw in things like psychowand, okarod set, etc and you have a gap that won't be bridged anytime soon. Level 40 techs wouldn't make up this diffenrece either(and for good reason)but it might give WT a real reason to use attack techs for once(outside of megid on bots).


I'm not sure that you understand that while their technic power is unmatched, they're still being outdamaged by FF and FG. You can raise another class's TP but once you give some1 else the increased aoe, power, SE of 31+, with their ATP to boot, FT is out the window.

[mll]

@ panzer
For ra- techs you'll be hitting for about 600 per target using a serdote 10/10 on a lvl. 92 human f WT 15.
Thats opposite element.
That ra tech is on lvl. 23 so it still has some way to maximising its potential but theres no way in hell its going to hit 1000 in the mean time.
I'd be happilly surprised if it hits 800.
And unfortunately fT has absolutely nothing going for it apart from tech damage (which our melee already out damages). They have little or no survivability, no back-up attacks, and a very average support ability (I'd rate guntecher higher personally). Giving WT lvl. 40 techs would kill off fT.
The basic problem is they can't really change any of the pa caps on the teching classes without making one obsolete. If you give WT 40 attack techs there no reason to play fT unless you give them 40 support techs which would probably make AT obsolete ... actually maybe not, they'd still have more survivability and flexibility than fT.
But really just making attack techs in general useful would help a great deal in the whole balance thing and i dont think it will be possible to get balance until that happens.
I'd like to see them push tech damage up in line with ranged damage.


EDIT: i was wrong about the ra tech damage its actually doing 690 with a serdote. 600 with a ranpegi.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mll on 2008-03-22 13:08 ]</font>

[Talise]

yes and I didn't have time to add this before, but in the beginning of AotI many people changed to acrotecher because even with 40 cap, fortetecher wasn't doin enough damage. The 20% rod boost only served to bring FT back from extinction. I'm sure a lot of people are jealous 40 technic, but are afraid to use the weak fortetecher, which is why Tsavo is pushing for 40 technic on WT. However, there's no way they're gonna do FT in like that.

[mll]

yep thats pretty much the problem we already out damage fT. Giving us the utility of 40 techs that come from range, SE levels and all the rest would be the nail in the coffin for fT.

[daniel_drago]

After reading through all these. something hit me. I've known of this little fact yet I've never really thought about it.
FT is the only one with lvl40 techs
Yet FF AF FiG all have lvl40 Skill So how bout giving WT lvl40 techs, keep their TP the same just give them lvl40 techs.
The damage out put would be increased for WT ok yeah it wouldn't be a huge boost but it would balance things out a little more.

[zanotam]

Well, to keep FT happy, they could just give them 40 support technics, and S in TCSM. Then give WT 40 attack techniques, and a tech boost (No atp boost please. I'm just happy I'm not stuck with my 5* twin daggers anymore) Maybe give them a boost to evp and mst as well to give them there tankesque role back since AT's mst and evade is so high slightly lower defence isn't exactly a major problem.

[Sekani]

With the rod boost and TP difference I don't see wartechers giving fortetechers much competition in the TECHNIC damage arena even with level 40 attack techs. It'll probably be similar to the difference between fortefighters and fighgunners.

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-21 15:04, Sekani wrote:
With the rod boost and TP difference I don't see wartechers giving fortetechers much competition in the TECHNIC damage arena even with level 40 attack techs. It'll probably be similar to the difference between Guntechers and Fortegunners.

Fix'd. Honestly, I havent felt at all weaker compared to a fortefighter, unless they were a beast. Besides, the lvl 30 bullets+mech/xbow combo makes up for any dmg difference they have.

[zanotam]

I'm starting to wonder though, do the devs even remember that force 5 was a requirement for WT? I mean they give stat boosts to humans and newman not beast and cast, yet they seem to be pushing WT to use melee almost completely. I prefer spells anyways and my damage seems to suck either way, but AT's are just as good tech users as WT and GT are starting to creep up on WT too, with the balanced update coming.

[Talise]

Some of you are still not getting the point. WT doesn't have to match FT's technic strength to make them obsolete. You've got a WT that can do level 40 spells and can MELEE, at the front lines, no less. What do you think the majority of the techer classes will now be playing... I'm pretty sure you guys probably don't play FT a lot, if you ask the FTs out there why they pick FT, the answer by majority is level 40 Atk Techs. Obviously if after WT gets lvl 40 spells and their techs still suck then people are still not gonna play them, so there's no point saying that FT is still going to be worth playing. Guntechers get level 40 bullets, not technics. If it wasn't for there being so many melee-able classes out there, I would have said wartechers should get level 40 skills. Unless they're amping the FT ATP, then the most WT should get is a boost in ATP or TP.

[Sekani]

Um, most people went fortetecher because they wanted to be the supreme teching class. This is why a lot of them don't like the acrotecher class much, since they took away part of that superiority. The vast majority of fortetechers I know would rather have level 40 support and exclusive use of rods forever, and I honestly don't think they'd be threatened by another class with level 40 attack techs.

[Talise]

On 2008-03-21 16:27, Sekani wrote:
Um, most people went fortetecher because they wanted to be the supreme teching class. This is why a lot of them don't like the acrotecher class much, since they took away part of that superiority. The vast majority of fortetechers I know would rather have level 40 support and exclusive use of rods forever, and I honestly don't think they'd be threatened by another class with level 40 attack techs.


um, supreme teching class=lvl 40 attack techs.
Acrotechers are like heaven for FT, they got better defense and cast faster, so switching to AT will help you level your technics to 30 before you do the hard part. There's no disliking AT...
As for the techers you know, if you really think they do...and maybe they do, well to each their own I guess. I'm gonna point out that not every fortetecher uses rods, based on previous forum discussion.

Um, I'm sorry for dragging this off topic I'll stop now.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-03-21 21:27 ]</font>

[MrNomad]

I really dont see what WTs have to be upset over other than getting only lvl 20 support techs. They have very high HP and DFP for a techer, they can use spears, knuckles and swords....Err, well they get spears, they have a good amount of TP so they basically can have a build of either paladin (More melee with healing/support) or a fighter mage (all kinds of Gi-techs in front of mobs.) With less base ATP than the other hunter classes and only lvl 30 skills they wont be the best at fighting, but they'll still be good, especially if you want to have spears. Their attack techs may be considered bottom of the barrel but then again attack techs are bottom barrel in Aoti to begin with, it's not like they shouldn't be used for status effect anyway. The only real problem I see with WT now is they have pow support techs. Give them lvl 30 support and I think this class is perfect. It's not supposed to be a class that excels in a bunch of traits or even one, it's supposed to be good in all of them. I think WTs need to stop complaining about how they should have more dmg in one place or another, if they want more dmg then they should go to a class that specializes in that trait. Want more dmg in close attacks? Go to FF, FiG, or AF for that. Want more tech dmg or support? Go to AT or FT. WT can do a little of all those things, but it wont be the best in any trait, which some people cant stand, but some people are cool with it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Talise]

AT can almost compare to WT in melee, except for weapon choice, and they have better speed and damage in the technic area. It's not that WT wants to have more power in a specific area, they just don't want to be good for nothing -_-.

[zanotam]

Talise, I think you get this from the WT side, but for FT, it's not WT getting 40 attack techs, so much as the fact that AT gets 40 support and S rank Madoogs while FT does not. The AT is almost as hard to kill as a WT, hits harder with techs, almost as hard with melee, and gets 40 support techs. WT just started with S rank Daggers and Twin Daggers, and actually that was still the worst, but giving them S in Knuckles, Twin claws, AND Wands as well as A rank in Swords (Wtf?) whips, madoogs, and shadoogs just ssends a slightly mixed message to how we're expected to play, especially since we still only have 20 support. Last time I played around a year ago, most of the WT I knew wanted an Identity for the class that was original, well that and to not have the least S ranks, and no max photon art, but that'll NEVER happen. What I'm trying to say is that AT has stepped all over WT territory, especially since they have higher evade and mst, since one of the big things about WT was your dfp was kinda low for a hunter class, but our evp and mst definitely made up for it. Not only that by giving us mostly new 2 handed weapons, but then 3 new one handed (I hope I'm not forgetting something here) they don't send a very clear message on which WT is expected to specialize in.
In conclusion: WT now ties with AT for being annoying hard to kill, is the 3rd worst combat caster, 4th worst melee fighter and still has the least S ranks and no max level in any PAs. /lesigh

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zanotam on 2008-03-22 10:47 ]</font>

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-22 09:41, Talise wrote:
AT can almost compare to WT in melee, except for weapon choice, and they have better speed and damage in the technic area. It's not that WT wants to have more power in a specific area, they just don't want to be good for nothing -_-.

but they arent good for nothing, and you said it yourself, ATs lack in the weapon department. An AT plus a whip will not be as good as a WT plus a spear. And its like I said, AT SHOULD have better techs than a WT. You're forgetting WTs have very high HP and DFP compared to other techers, and as a trade-off they get decent tech damage.

[mll]

I don't see much point in giving WT 30 support techs it'll just turn it into acrotecher part 2.
DFP is a meaningless stat and if you throw on both classes buffs the gap is not worth mentioning.
So WT is the techer with lots of hp, decent melee and lots of piontless techs who's in the bottom / middle tier of every discipline (granted we have access to each discipline).
I like the idea of giving fT 40 support techs and WT 40 attack techs. How do you think that would go down with fT's Talise.

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-22 12:34, mll wrote:
I don't see much point in giving WT 30 support techs it'll just turn it into acrotecher part 2.
DFP is a meaningless stat and if you throw on both classes buffs the gap is not worth mentioning.
So WT is the techer with lots of hp, decent melee and lots of piontless techs who's in the bottom / middle tier of every discipline (granted we have access to each discipline).
I like the idea of giving fT 40 support techs and WT 40 attack techs. How do you think that would go down with fT's Talise.

lvl 30 support is what they should have instead of more attack tech. It wont make much sense giving WTs lvl 40 attack techs because FTs will still have rods. Hey, kinda like Fortetecher part 2 =D
Besides, lvl 30 support means better buffs not only for you but the party, better Giresta etc. Why give lvl 40 attack techs and try to make WTs more into some all attack-tech based class when they can give them lvl 30 support and not only give players the ability to choose what way to play the class but to improve one of those styles of play as well?

[zanotam]

I don't know, in the original PSU the point of WT was we had second best EVP and MST, and third best HP and DFP, making us the over all hardest to kill. That was the ONLY thing that made playing a WT bearable, we were very, very, hard to kill.

[MrNomad]

Hardest to kill? No, that spot is reserved for gunners, sorry. =)

[Talise]

On 2008-03-22 13:13, MrNomad wrote:

On 2008-03-22 12:34, mll wrote:
I don't see much point in giving WT 30 support techs it'll just turn it into acrotecher part 2.
DFP is a meaningless stat and if you throw on both classes buffs the gap is not worth mentioning.
So WT is the techer with lots of hp, decent melee and lots of piontless techs who's in the bottom / middle tier of every discipline (granted we have access to each discipline).
I like the idea of giving fT 40 support techs and WT 40 attack techs. How do you think that would go down with fT's Talise.

lvl 30 support is what they should have instead of more attack tech. It wont make much sense giving WTs lvl 40 attack techs because FTs will still have rods. Hey, kinda like Fortetecher part 2 =D
Besides, lvl 30 support means better buffs not only for you but the party, better Giresta etc. Why give lvl 40 attack techs and try to make WTs more into some all attack-tech based class when they can give them lvl 30 support and not only give players the ability to choose what way to play the class but to improve one of those styles of play as well?


okay to answer the first post. Ft doesn't get lvl 40 support because that's acrotecher's arena. Acrotechers are support based techers, Ft are attack based techers. If you were to give Ft lvl 40 support as well as attack then there will be less point to use an AT, it's one of their appeals.
For the 2nd post, I simply dun think it'd be fair for WT to have lvl 30 support, that takes away from GT. It'd be the better choice though and it might work out too. EDIT: Lvl 30 support doesn't really do much for you though, if everyone can just use buff items. I think WT is great for megistar though this might be good...
And for the 3RD post, well if that's the case, if we boosted WT's DFP and MST even more maybe that could fix the problem. I think that might be a good idea, it would fit the role of paladin more too.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-03-22 19:38 ]</font>

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-22 19:34, Talise wrote:

On 2008-03-22 13:13, MrNomad wrote:

On 2008-03-22 12:34, mll wrote:
I don't see much point in giving WT 30 support techs it'll just turn it into acrotecher part 2.
DFP is a meaningless stat and if you throw on both classes buffs the gap is not worth mentioning.
So WT is the techer with lots of hp, decent melee and lots of piontless techs who's in the bottom / middle tier of every discipline (granted we have access to each discipline).
I like the idea of giving fT 40 support techs and WT 40 attack techs. How do you think that would go down with fT's Talise.

lvl 30 support is what they should have instead of more attack tech. It wont make much sense giving WTs lvl 40 attack techs because FTs will still have rods. Hey, kinda like Fortetecher part 2 =D
Besides, lvl 30 support means better buffs not only for you but the party, better Giresta etc. Why give lvl 40 attack techs and try to make WTs more into some all attack-tech based class when they can give them lvl 30 support and not only give players the ability to choose what way to play the class but to improve one of those styles of play as well?


okay to answer the first post. Ft doesn't get lvl 40 support because that's acrotecher's arena. Acrotechers are support based techers, Ft are attack based techers. If you were to give Ft lvl 40 support as well as attack then there will be less point to use an AT, it's one of their appeals.
For the 2nd post, I simply dun think it'd be fair for WT to have lvl 30 support, that takes away from GT. It'd be the better choice though and it might work out too. EDIT: Lvl 30 support doesn't really do much for you though, if everyone can just use buff items. I think WT is great for megistar though this might be good...
And for the 3RD post, well if that's the case, if we boosted WT's DFP and MST even more maybe that could fix the problem. I think that might be a good idea, it would fit the role of paladin more too.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-03-22 19:38 ]</font>
Well, the thing about GT is that they have not only better guns (which translates to better against mobs than most techs) but also lvl 40 bullets. The extra support techs is just the icing on top. It's simple really, if you want techs but also close ranged attacks, WT, and for techs and guns GT.

[mll]

Wartecher is already has a good enough defence in each area boosting it would just be overkill and unnecessary and wouldn't be a great deal of help.
As for 40 attack techs turning wt into ft, our melee would still do a lot more damage than our techs. We'd still be a melee class, we'd just have a useful second option from techs, a bit like a figunners guns. I think due to our stats, weapon selection and tp mods we'd remain pretty different classes.
Giving us 30 support would just push us back into the support techer fold. Which already has a support / melee class which works we'll.
I think fT is still a bit short of the other classes and could do with 40 support. I think acrotecher has enough other advantages (A lot more survivability, a lot more flexibility, a wider range of weapons and possibly better damage output due to having half decent melee) to take the hit of losing the exclusive access to 40 support.
It would just offer a class that isn't currently available.

[Sexy_Raine]

On 2008-03-21 16:09, Talise wrote:
Some of you are still not getting the point. WT doesn't have to match FT's technic strength to make them obsolete. You've got a WT that can do level 40 spells and can MELEE, at the front lines, no less. What do you think the majority of the techer classes will now be playing... I'm pretty sure you guys probably don't play FT a lot, if you ask the FTs out there why they pick FT, the answer by majority is level 40 Atk Techs. Obviously if after WT gets lvl 40 spells and their techs still suck then people are still not gonna play them, so there's no point saying that FT is still going to be worth playing. Guntechers get level 40 bullets, not technics. If it wasn't for there being so many melee-able classes out there, I would have said wartechers should get level 40 skills. Unless they're amping the FT ATP, then the most WT should get is a boost in ATP or TP.



Talise speaks the truth. As a FT as more than 2500hrs, the only reason for me not being an Acrotecher right now is exclusive lv40 offense techs. That's the only reason I tolerate FT's shitty defense stats. AT gets to use a bit of all 3 fighting styles with superior defense stats to FT. I so wanna bandwagon to AT, but they lack what I'm most interested in.

If anyone think Rods and P Wand save FT alone, then they are fuckin' nubs. Lv40 offense techs is the only thing truly saving FT right now. Most of my techs are lv31+ so I can't really enjoy AT. Some people seem to underestimate AT, but from a FT point of view they have a lot going for them. I'm done here.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2008-03-23 04:26 ]</font>

[Talise]

On 2008-03-23 00:58, mll wrote:
Wartecher is already has a good enough defence in each area boosting it would just be overkill and unnecessary and wouldn't be a great deal of help.

Overkill's what I was goin for =D Now you have an advantage over all the other classes. You can wade into almost anything and still survive... They hit you,... you hit back... It'd be really fun =D

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-23 05:10, Talise wrote:

On 2008-03-23 00:58, mll wrote:
Wartecher is already has a good enough defence in each area boosting it would just be overkill and unnecessary and wouldn't be a great deal of help.

Overkill's what I was goin for =D Now you have an advantage over all the other classes. You can wade into almost anything and still survive... They hit you,... you hit back... It'd be really fun =D

What they can do is round off WT's HP alittle so its kinda smaller than FiG but give it more DFP so it can defend alittle better. Everything else should be all set I suppose, then you got a good paladin-like class, or a techer class if you want the extra dfp

[Astarin]

Am I the only one who thinks Wartechers are perfectly fine they way they are?

[MrNomad]

I think they're fine, but im talking about how WTs should be made in the future. Some people, on the other hand, dont like playing a class that has a lot of traits but isnt the best at any of them http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[mll]

We can already wade into anything and survive. Thats why extra defence wouldn't be any help. And we already have more hp and defence than figunner so putting our hp just below figunner would be gimping the class, currently an acrotecher is more than competitive in defence vs. a figunner, wartecher blows it out of the water.
Every class is currently fine in the sense that we can slaughter every enemy of every level without a great deal of difficulty, in terms of of class vs. class balance were not quite there yet IMO. fF, AT and AF are marginally overpowered and WT, fT and FG are marginally underpowered. I do think we're closer to class balance than at any other point in the game though.
But anyway I've said my piece and I'll drop it at this point.

[Talise]

well the people who play the respective class knows best about the class. I've never played wartecher but I know I wouldn't want to. So my view on WT might be skewed... and I dun have any place deciding what WT should be I guess =D Let the WT worry about it ^_^

[mvffin]

ok, after some recent rekindling with my WT, I have concluded that WT needs the following:

MORE ATA (low ATA + 9*weps = donuts)

Even with my melee skills at lvl 25+ I still get too many 0's. I do decent damage when I do hit though, and I rarely die. Maybe another S rank or two. This would also help with donuts.

That's really the only problem i have right now, everything else seems pretty well-rounded, I can perform many different functions in a party. (I h8 being the buffer though, because they wear off so quick I end up buffing 2-3 times per block and missing out on a lot of XP)

[MrNomad]

On 2008-03-23 16:50, mll wrote:
We can already wade into anything and survive. Thats why extra defence wouldn't be any help. And we already have more hp and defence than figunner so putting our hp just below figunner would be gimping the class, currently an acrotecher is more than competitive in defence vs. a figunner, wartecher blows it out of the water.
Every class is currently fine in the sense that we can slaughter every enemy of every level without a great deal of difficulty, in terms of of class vs. class balance were not quite there yet IMO. fF, AT and AF are marginally overpowered and WT, fT and FG are marginally underpowered. I do think we're closer to class balance than at any other point in the game though.
But anyway I've said my piece and I'll drop it at this point.

Arent you contradicting yourself by trying to put dfp on a pedestal? I thought you said dfp was meaningless at the current stat of affairs >.> Besides, if the game became more challenging then it is now, the shift in class "power" would be like it was back in PSU vanilla, where gunner classes would be on the top, and FiGs would be way up there for their high atp, hp and lvl 30 xbows/mechs. Techers would be in the middle, with ATs still above FTs because of their speed and support techs. The meleerers outside of FiG and maybe AF would again be at the bottom where close-range combat is the only good option they have. You could argue that a FF with slicers could still do good, but after all the nerfs it got plus forcing the player to stop when firing wont help much. WTs will still be struggling to fit in now when their best option to survive stronger mobs is to use cards and techs. But yeah, thats how I see it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Thats not to say I DONT want this challenge, my FiG wants to face a new worthy foe :3



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MrNomad on 2008-03-24 20:56 ]</font>

[mll]

On 2008-03-24 12:21, MrNomad wrote:

On 2008-03-23 16:50, mll wrote:
We can already wade into anything and survive. Thats why extra defence wouldn't be any help. And we already have more hp and defence than figunner so putting our hp just below figunner would be gimping the class, currently an acrotecher is more than competitive in defence vs. a figunner, wartecher blows it out of the water.
Every class is currently fine in the sense that we can slaughter every enemy of every level without a great deal of difficulty, in terms of of class vs. class balance were not quite there yet IMO. fF, AT and AF are marginally overpowered and WT, fT and FG are marginally underpowered. I do think we're closer to class balance than at any other point in the game though.
But anyway I've said my piece and I'll drop it at this point.

Arent you contradicting yourself by trying to put dfp on a pedestal? I thought you said dfp was meaningless at the current stat of affairs >.> Besides, if the game became more challenging then it is now, the shift in class "power" would be like it was back in PSU vanilla, where gunner classes would be on the top, and FiGs would be way up there for their high atp, hp and lvl 30 xbows/mechs. Techers would be in the middle, with ATs still above FTs because of their speed and support techs. The meleerers outside of FiG and maybe AF would again be at the bottom where close-range combat is the only good option they have. You could argue that a FF with slicers could still do good, but after all the nerfs it got plus forcing the player to stop when firing wont help much. WTs will still be struggling to fit in now when their best option to survive stronger mobs is to use cards and techs. But yeah, thats how I see it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Thats not to say I DONT want this challenge, my FiG wants to face a new worthy foe :3



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MrNomad on 2008-03-24 20:56 ]</font>


I'm really not trying to put dfp on a pedestal, when i talk about defence im talking about all the defensive stats (HP, DFP, EVA, MST). DFP is a pointless stat just because it doesn't change enemy damage a great deal until you start looking at the extreme ends of the scale (comparing fF to fT). The reason wartecher has great defence (not the stat) is because we have 2nd most hp. All the other stats are secondary to HP in this game basically, we have a decent - good EVA and MST, which are helpful, but not a that important and I think we have 2nd / 3rd best dfp but like i said that stat is completely meaningless.
DFP isn't meaningless because enemies are weak its just a meaningless stat unless things changed drastically since v1. Its one of the reasons Zalure has always been useless even when it took an hour to kill a jarba, it actually took longer to cast zalure back then than it would save in killing the enemy!

Yeah, a challenge would be nice.

[MrNomad]

Meh, 300 more HP than most other classes doesnt add much to a WT's defense, especially when you add in the concept of Trimates. Also, DFP was meaningless in v1 as well, infact it was the last thing you ever wanted back then XD

[zanotam]

I don't know why everyone thinks WT needs more ATP. Maybe It's because I'm used to what WT was like before AoI and the base stat boost, but I'm quite happy with my melee capabilities and I'm fine being 4th best, but with the way it works now WT is tied for 3rd best techer with GT and maybe it's just me, but I LIKED being the hardest to kill, but now that AT is out there, they're just as hard to kill for regular enemies, and are a lot better against spells then WT. When did WT go from Paladin to Red mage?

[mll]

Yeah im fine with our melee too, and 21+ support techs gives us another 5% ATP among other things so we'll be a bit closer to AF and FG anyway.
I think in v1. there were pretty much two builds for wartechers the versatile damage class, and the support / melee build. And we weren't really very good at either so they split it into two classes.
In some ways we always were a red mage.
I really miss being 2nd best techer but I waited so long for full 2-handed combos that I'm reluctant to give them up now.

[zanotam]

See, THAT'S what annoys me. Rather then think up something original for AT, they just split WT in two. Come on, seriously? But yeah, as a long time WT
(Since before buffs came out) and a Human Female (In game) I'm finding it harder and harder to justify my existence as WT instead of AT, besides the fact that there aren't enough other techers to begin with so my friends can't be picky. If they could I'd probably never get a party. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zanotam on 2008-03-30 10:22 ]</font>

[dc534]

I think this new mission really is great for WT and AT. Although fT can hold their own I prefer to have a WT or AT with me in the group, even though WT support sucks we are split up and timed so it makes litlte differnce I end up using agritides and zodarides anyways. I prefer WT in the party for the simple fact that I know they wont be killed, unless they completly suck, I men if you die as this class that is very sad. With the health and defense of WT, plus being able to heal yourself, you should not die. Anyways I prefer WT because the game lags enough already, we dont need a fT casting lvl 40 nos diga lagging us even more.

[dc534]

I here you on WT but hold on I guess in japan their support just got lvl 30 so the class might not be so bad in do time. I here you though about how much this class is hurting do to AT.

[mll]

On 2008-03-30 10:21, zanotam wrote:
See, THAT'S what annoys me. Rather then think up something original for AT, they just split WT in two. Come on, seriously? But yeah, as a long time WT
(Since before buffs came out) and a Human Female (In game) I'm finding it harder and harder to justify my existence as WT instead of AT, besides the fact that there aren't enough other techers to begin with so my friends can't be picky. If they could I'd probably never get a party. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zanotam on 2008-03-30 10:22 ]</font>


My only justification is I enjoy playing wartecher more, AT is just better basically. While the 30 support techs are nice, AT's support went up too, so were still the crappy acrotecher with some 2-handed weapons.
I don't get or like the way the upped AT's support cap. Where are the horrible drawbacks for having a lvl 50 pa cap that come with the Master Classes. They even have a speed boost. I don't know if their speed boost is as big as the Master classes but it just seems like all the best parts of a master class without any of the drawbacks.

[panzer_unit]

I finally got my cast set up as WT, one of my friends just started playing and I follow him around in low-rank missions softening enemies up with techs, WTFPWNing tough enemies with melee, and keeping him alive with Giresta. The massive stat nerf from FF15 to WT1 keeps me from one-shotting everything before he can tag it lol.

The one thing that bugs me so far is organizing my palette. Because of weapon switching lag, the only way to heal effectively for me is use one-handed weapons for EVERYTHING so I can have a TCSM with giresta/reverser following me around... and even then I've got to finish up whatever PA I'm doing before I can even start to cast.

Mashing out attack techs with a range mag firing alongside is a lot of fun for taking on robots.

[Detonator]

I started my main as WT but lately I´ve been playing more as AT. I suppose I just want to be more useful to my party. Both types get the job done though...

[icewyrm]

On 2008-03-31 13:58, panzer_unit wrote:
The one thing that bugs me so far is organizing my palette. Because of weapon switching lag, the only way to heal effectively for me is use one-handed weapons for EVERYTHING so I can have a TCSM with giresta/reverser following me around... and even then I've got to finish up whatever PA I'm doing before I can even start to cast.


Oh yeah, that is the part that always gets me. That, and the fact that acrotecher has 3 1 handed S rank melee weapons, and wartecher only has 1. And since one handed weapons only get two combos... ahhh, it sure is an annoyance.

On the plus side, it will be nice to finally be on equal terms with guntecher in terms of support. It always seemed like something both classes should be about the same at.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: icewyrm on 2008-04-02 21:07 ]</font>

[dc534]

I remember before the expansion when WT was awesome to play. I used to be able to run with me and my PT buddy, I kept him alive and we totatly destoryed all the missions in the game. Now it is more like give me an AT and I play the PT and my hp restore and 50 % armors keep me alive.

[panzer_unit]

I hated playing WT before the expansion... lv20 skills were a killer to deal with for their weapon selection. Sure you don't go for the full combo every time you use PA, but sometimes you really need it. lv10 bullets (two cards?!) and lv20 attack techs (missing so much stuff) were every bit as bad.

+10 levels on everything and the problem's solved.

Playing last night, I remembered to stick mostly to my shato (heals) + giza-misaki (bukuu) palette slot and did an okay job of serving up Giresta whenever my dudes needed it. Bukuu's a slow skill, but you only need the first part.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-04-03 06:28 ]</font>