zweihänders

[Sinfjotle]

On 2008-03-27 12:33, McFlyVII wrote:
Have you handled a Zweihänder before? I you had, you would not understate by saying "only weighed about 7lb maximum and was nearly 6ft long". Don't kid YOURSELF, these guys handling this weapon were huge. Also, do your research. Most historians believe the Zweihänder was used purely for decorative purposes and IF it was used, it was to break through a line of spearman, and then discarded replaced by a shorter easier (though not easy) sword to wield for the rest of the battle which could last an entire day.

Lastly, you are completely wrong. Men have become hulking nowadays yes, but they were of great size also hundreds of years ago. Women were not. Women did get bigger over the ages. There were fat women back then, but stomach size does not constitute strength. Women were banned in almost EVERY society from any kind of physical activity, ESPECIALLY war. So no, if there were strong women back then, they didn't use it ever.

Thanks guys. I was really bored at work and you've entertained me ;P.



First off, you're mixing royalty with normal people. Are you saying women weren't farmers/peasants and instead sat in the house all day? Do you think cooking and cleaning were nearly as easy as they are today?

Second off, Greece. A little add to that, Joan of Arc.

As far as zweihänders go, yes they were used primarily for cutting down spearmen, but there are many examples of two-handed swords that were quite battle used, also very long and not that heavy. Which is the point I was getting at. If in the Middle Ages they could make a weapon that big that weighed that little, you don't think in thousands of years they could make bigger yet lighter weapons?


Notice: This topic was originally part of JP PC/PS2 update for March 27 (New types!) (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?forum=20&topic=172448)

[Zorafim]

Wasn't Joan of Arc burned at the stake because of what she did? Seems like a ban to me.


Wait, why am I getting involved in this?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2008-03-27 18:05 ]</font>

[CelestialBlade]

Okay, now I have to read more of that dumb update topic because I'm wondering how the hell you people get so off-topic and argumentative over stupid shit. Just, wow XD

[Retehi]

This is beyond nerd rage.

[Zorafim]

More of the topic should have been moved here. I can't even remember how this argument was started.

Regardless, now that there isn't any fear of derailing the original topic, I can say my peace. The weapons in PSU are incredibly oversized, to a point of being ugly. So are most cast and caseal armors. FFXI's heaviest set, which I believe to be well proportioned, is still about as big as the cast's hound's set. Even the biggest weapons are smaller than PSU's A ranks. They relied more on detail of the weapon more than just making things bigger and calling it a day. PSU's weapons and shells seem to need to get bigger in order to maintain the coolness factor they lose by not having any design to them.
Here are some pictures of the heaviest armor sets and weapons in the game to show what I'm talking about.

[spoiler-box]
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/elvdrk.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/FFXI%20junk/mithra.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/LeviaFeline.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

They looked somewhat realistic while keeping the fantasy feel to them. Light weapons looked light, heavy weapons looked heavy, light armor seemed light, heavy armor seemed heavy.
More of a rant than anything, but...

[CelestialBlade]

On 2008-03-27 19:56, Zorafim wrote:
More of the topic should have been moved here. I can't even remember how this argument was started.

Regardless, now that there isn't any fear of derailing the original topic, I can say my peace. The weapons in PSU are incredibly oversized, to a point of being ugly. So are most cast and caseal armors. FFXI's heaviest set, which I believe to be well proportioned, is still about as big as the cast's hound's set. Even the biggest weapons are smaller than PSU's A ranks. They relied more on detail of the weapon more than just making things bigger and calling it a day. PSU's weapons and shells seem to need to get bigger in order to maintain the coolness factor they lose by not having any design to them.
Here are some pictures of the heaviest armor sets and weapons in the game to show what I'm talking about.

[spoiler-box]
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/elvdrk.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/FFXI%20junk/mithra.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/LeviaFeline.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

They looked somewhat realistic while keeping the fantasy feel to them. Light weapons looked light, heavy weapons looked heavy, light armor seemed light, heavy armor seemed heavy.
More of a rant than anything, but...


Your points are valid, but I think PSU intentionally takes more of a WoW direction in its equipment design by being more extravagant than functional. Some of the CAST parts are pretty similar to WoW armor pieces anyway. We've definitely come a long way from a nice, well-proportioned Elsydeon to an Agito Repca with less balancing than Sephiroth's freaking Masamune.

FFXI does a great job with its equipment, the fantasy level is in between the strict realism of Everquest II and the extravagance of WoW's. PSU's seems to fall in between FFXI and WoW.

[McLaughlin]

What's the armor in the last picture?

[Monochrome]

Does a gunblade weigh 7 lbs?

[Sgt_Shligger]

On 2008-03-27 20:14, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
What's the armor in the last picture?



Probably full plate.

*EDIT*


On 2008-03-27 21:07, Monochrome wrote:
Does a gunblade weigh 7 lbs?



About a pound or so.

http://dns.websitemanagement.net/clients/404/mid/mid_full_1392_photo1.jpg

A real gunblade, couldn't find a picture, usually has a larger blade, not just a knife. A FF gunblade would probably weigh at least 6 pounds.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sgt_Shligger on 2008-03-27 21:43 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

That last set is Odin's armor, created by .dat editors. If I'm not mistaken, a set will be released eventually that looks similar to that, but I'm sure it has insane drop requirements.

And wait, Everquest had realism? Not that I know anything about it, but isn't that the game with the outfits made especially to lift and push out your character's breasts? I've gotta check out what else it has, if it has realism.

[CelestialBlade]

On 2008-03-27 23:26, Zorafim wrote:
That last set is Odin's armor, created by .dat editors. If I'm not mistaken, a set will be released eventually that looks similar to that, but I'm sure it has insane drop requirements.

And wait, Everquest had realism? Not that I know anything about it, but isn't that the game with the outfits made especially to lift and push out your character's breasts? I've gotta check out what else it has, if it has realism.


Former roommate of mine played Everquest II a year or so ago, and I thought a lot of the armors were actually pretty realistic and feasable. This may have changed since I last saw it because evidently everything in that game is slowly becoming more WoW-ish, but at the time it looked fairly realistic. The weapons do too, if you have a weapon that doesn't have nine kinds of plasma radiating from it.

I'm sure breasts are exaggerated too, but it's hard to find an MMO that really doesn't anymore. Armor: The poor woman's breast enlargement solution.

[rogue_robot]

There are many kinds of sci-fi, people (technically, fantasy is oft counted as one of them). I'd wager less than half of them give a damn about realism. Phantasy Star - even the classic series - has itself never cared. In reality, titanium blades (alloyed, because pure titanium is highly flammable) are inferior to even simple steels because they deform too easily, and anything ceramic shatters like glass on impact, lacking malleability, therefore being useless in the production of striking weapons.

So, as much as I also hate the insanely-oversized swords (which, by the way, would be approximately 15-20 lbs.), especially when used by mere twigs of people, let's just let the issue die. In real life, a 6 lbs. sword, 4 ft. in length, (katana) requires two hands, unless you're fairly strong (have a naturally strong build and train frequently). At 8 lbs. and 5 ft., even most physically trained people have to use it two-handed because of weight distribution. If it's any heavier or longer than that, even exploding-biceps man and the like would generally have to use it two-handed. In fact, most weapons in PSU (and even more so in PSO) are grossly oversized. PSU, however, is not real life.


That was my response to this bullshit in the previous thread, and it remains my response in this split thread.



EDIT: I do tend to like at least semi-realistic better, by the way, as I have previously stated on this forum. This whole zweihander thing, though, is so prevalent in modern games, there really isn't much point trying to argue it, because you're inevitably just arguing with fanboys of who are immune to logic anyway...

...well, that, and games wouldn't be very interesting if the protagonist - who more often than not has only just started fighting because of some recent injustice, etc. - had to go through at least a year of [i]training like in real life before most weapons even became usable in real fights - and trust me, if you haven't been trained at least a little with a given weapon (other than small tools [knives, small hammers, whips] or light firearms (small-caliber handguns and carbines [short-barrel rifles]), you won't be able to use said weapon (barring listed exceptions) in a real fight worth a damn, no matter how much iron you pump, how often, etc.



EDIT 2: Oh, and assuming rescaling to match a real life sword size when necessary, a gunblade's weight would more or less match that of the sword it's based around: 1-2 lbs. for the dagger-sized ones, 4-5 lbs. for one-handers, 6-7 for 1.5-handers (katana-size), and 8-10 for a full zweihander.

EDIT 3: The Greco-Roman style one-handers are only about 2-3 lbs., if I remember straight (the ones that are shorter than medieval sabers, but still too big to be daggers).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-03-28 17:56 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-03-28 18:01 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-03-28 18:07 ]</font>

[Sharkyland]

In PSO/PSU, the photonic blade was suppose to actually reduce the weight and thanks to Moore's law, the machine to generate the blade has been lighter and lighter.

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Looking at wikipedia, doesn't really look much as killing blade but more like a tai chi blade or whatever that fencing sword (epee?) is which is suppose to be able to deflect and try use the opponent's weapon against them or throw them off balanace.

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I dunno if bigger is better, but lighter does make a difference. The bigger it is, the more easy it is throw you off balance and if it's not crafted right, a good hit would made that sword useless. Also when you have a bigger weapon, and you got deflected to some direction when during a thrust or slash, what else can you use to protect yourself?