Dagger: Shunbu Shouren-zan or Hikai Shuha-zan?

[Sexy_Raine]

After finding Halp Serafi. I wanted to fool around with the dagger a bit as an AT. Being such a non-hunter, I never bother with most melee PA's.

Which one of these two look better? I'm not worried much about effectiveness/damage. Which one looks less silly is all I'm asking since I hate flashy moves. I don't want to waste my frags on something I'll end up disliking.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2008-04-03 01:24 ]</font>

[icewyrm]

Shunbu looks better, hikai is the sonic spinball one :/

[Sexy_Raine]

On 2008-04-03 01:23, icewyrm wrote:
Shunbu looks better, hikai is the sonic spinball one :/



D: Thank you for the warning. Shunbu it is then. I'm glad I asked first.

[YUKI_N]

Buten

[ljkkjlcm9]

Buten is useful in most situations
Hikai is the strongest, especially if you learn how to use it correctly.
Shunbu is my least used, as it's basically rising strike with a dagger. It's the one I don't have as a Fighgunner, and the one my acro uses the least.

THE JACKEL

[Yuneiko]

I play as a mainly teching Acrotecher at the moment, and I have currently been using Shunbu on tech resistant monsters. It's nowhere near as maneuverable as the other two single dagger PAs, but it comes out quite fast as an acro class, which can also be an issue. Due to the speed, the second combo sometimes misses for me, usually when I don't wait to JA it. It basically is the rising strike for daggers, but due to my already capped buten from other jobs (wartecher days) and due to the odd nature of the 2nd combo of hikai, I chose to level up shunbu. I find it works best on mobs you can knock over instead of blow away, such as Grass Assassins and Polovohra.

[Kylie]

Why hate on the sonic ball?! I think it looks really cool, personally, and it's useful too. Shunbu is kind of boring in appearance and use to me, but whatever you decide to roll with. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[painXxX]

buten for me easy to level..or maybe just for me to but it was and still is a good pa

[Talise]

lol, Shunbu is not rising strike. It's a slow, worthless version of rising strike. Hikai and Buten both look good, but I guess Buten is less "flashy" than Hikai.

[painXxX]

and its a good pa...

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2008-04-03 11:11, Talise wrote:
lol, Shunbu is not rising strike. It's a slow, worthless version of rising strike.


so are you agreeing or disagreeing with me.

I said it was the rising strike for a dagger. Not that it WAS rising strike, but the same use on a dagger. You just said the same damn thing. You stated the obvious, that the Shunbu PA, is not the rising strike PA, and then stated that it was similar to rising strike. See, this type of post was pointless

THE JACKEL

[Kouta_]

On 2008-04-03 02:40, YUKI_N wrote:
Buten

[chalka]

like most have already said, buten is my favorite.

hikai's first attack is good, but the second attack can get annoying in certain situations.

i like shunbu, its great for knockdown and flinching on bigger monsters. sure its a little slow, but when youre a AT it helps with bigger monsters. when i was leveling my AT on egg thieves, i used shunbu to keep the gainezeros off their feet and take them out that way.

so for me Buten > Shunbu > Hikai

[Sexy_Raine]

My human already has the first PA, so I really don't feel like leveling the same skill. It all came down to the othertwo I mentioned.

[hiraisho]

I've leveled all three, Shunbu just isn't that useful in my opinion, yea it has that knockdown/flinching but from when you execute the 1st part of the pa and when it actually attacks is a bit long. Being an AT and having the speed bonus it may be a bit more useful but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

The 1st part of Hikai is really good, I'm not a big fan of the second part because it can be tricky to use but it does nice damage.

Buten is my personal favorite, a nice stream of attacks that do decent damage. A great all around move.

But since your more interested in looks I'd say look around YouTube, there are people who have made vids of the various Melee PAs, take a look there and judge which you like most then go invest into it.

[Talise]

On 2008-04-03 15:00, hiraisho wrote:
I've leveled all three, Shunbu just isn't that useful in my opinion, yea it has that knockdown/flinching but from when you execute the 1st part of the pa and when it actually attacks is a bit long. Being an AT and having the speed bonus it may be a bit more useful but I wouldn't get my hopes up.


exactly, hence my post, slow and worthless version of rising strike. MAIN POINT, WORTHLESS.
EDIT: OKAY, let me clarify. If you want a PA like Rising Strike, USE RISING STRIKE. Saber=better ATP, Rising Strike=faster. Shunbu is much inferior to Rising Strike, so why would you get that PA. Buten and hikai=4 hit on each combo=fast=manuverable. Once again, Shunbu is worthless, worthless, worthless. Get the picture yet.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-04-03 15:46 ]</font>

[Sekani]

How many people posting in this thread even read the OP?

[icewyrm]

On 2008-04-03 15:40, Talise wrote:
Once again, Shunbu is worthless, worthless, worthless. Get the picture yet.


I actually found shunbu more useful than rising strike against gaozorans, although admittedly the timing for the second hit can be tricky to land.

I actually recently put my saber pas away and just stayed with dagger, since I haven't been using them much anymore.

[EphekZ]

On 2008-04-03 16:51, Sekani wrote:
How many people posting in this thread even read the OP?



none.

[Talise]

have read it, but still arguing Shunbu is worthless, which means Hikai -_-

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2008-04-03 22:44, EphekZ wrote:

On 2008-04-03 16:51, Sekani wrote:
How many people posting in this thread even read the OP?



none.


I read it, but still felt like mentioning their uses

THE JACKEL

[EphekZ]

On 2008-04-03 23:12, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:

On 2008-04-03 22:44, EphekZ wrote:

On 2008-04-03 16:51, Sekani wrote:
How many people posting in this thread even read the OP?



none.


I read it, but still felt like mentioning their uses

THE JACKEL



did the OP ask for their uses?
I lol at the fact that above you make some great statement about making a pointless post and yet...you're doing the same thing, in that post even!
Simply amazing.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2008-04-03 23:30 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2008-04-03 23:29, EphekZ wrote:

On 2008-04-03 23:12, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:

On 2008-04-03 22:44, EphekZ wrote:

On 2008-04-03 16:51, Sekani wrote:
How many people posting in this thread even read the OP?



none.


I read it, but still felt like mentioning their uses

THE JACKEL



did the OP ask for their uses?
I lol at the fact that above you make some great statement about making a pointless post and yet...you're doing the same thing, in that post even!
Simply amazing.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2008-04-03 23:30 ]</font>

the title of the thread is: Shunbu or Hikai?
someone else wondering the same thing may enter the thread and wonder which one is more useful, and not just care about how it looks. For convenience, instead of them having to create a whole new thread just to find the usefulness just because this person asked how they looked, it's perfectly adequate to place it in here because a number of people would expect to find that information in this thread.

Not every thread is ONLY about the exact words of the OP, if it were, most threads should only last say, 2-5 posts, depending on how much they asked

THE JACKEL

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2008-04-04 01:24 ]</font>

[Talise]

If it makes you happy to die while using your "good looking" PA, be my guest. I see no reason why you can't give advice on a PA you think someone will regret using.

[mvffin]

Die using shunbu? enemies will be on the ground... how will they kill me?

[AngelanWM]

Shunbu

use it on a monster's sides or rear to not be interrupted. Shunbu also can hit a big monster 4 times and knock them over consistantly.

Rising strike is good for smaller monsters but for big keg nodds and pollovahra i use Shunbu. Knocks them over when i am a GT - gives me a few seconds breathing room.

[Mewnie]

It's more like Anga Dugrega for daggers.

Shunbu also has a very high ATP mod. If I JA it, I can do 1000+ x2 then finish with 1600-1700 on the jumping hit to one target.


Vs non-element, too.


The second combo isn't even needed all that often, unless you really want to hurt something while knocking it around on it ass. While it is somewhat difficult
to control, it doesn't need as mich fiddlig as Hikai's second combo.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mewnie on 2008-04-04 09:58 ]</font>

[Sekani]

Well since the subject has changed, I really don't see how the only launcher PA available for single dagger users is useless. I think we all agree that it's no Rising Strike, but God forbid some people not want to use sabers for whatever reason. Wartechers, for example, can't use S-rank sabers.

Of course if you're playing with Talise, using Shunbu will somehow cause him to die for no apparent reason, so use discretion.

[Talise]

You're seriously going to argue how 2 seconds on immobility won't get you killed. So you're soloing Awoken Serpent, and you warp into a room with 5 fire vanda, what do you do. Let's go through all the options huh.
1. you use a gi tech with har/quick and madoog. Vanda decides to breath fire and can't get interrupted, you die, boohoo
2. You use whip and force them away from you. A. you only use first combo and soon they go out of reach and stop being interrupted, you die, boohoo. B. you use the 2nd combo and they all get knocked away, now you're getting hit from 6 different directions, you die, boohoo.
3. You decide to shoot your enemies with twins, cards, or pistol. You run around trying to dodge all the instant cast fireballs and fire breaths, but once again enemies have scattered and you get shot from different directions, die, boohoo.
4. You decide to use twin daggers on them. Read 2B and 3.
5. You decide to use machinegun, you eventually run out of photon charges, plus you still get hit from all directions, boohoo, die.
6. You use, OMG, Shunbu. During your ONE SECOND charge up you get hit by foie from another enemy, ZOMG, how can that happen.you knock down like 2 enemies, then you get shot again, ZOMG, wtf happened. You die, boohoo.
7. You play smartly, and you use Buten, and stun lock 3 enemies at the same time(using SKILL) and knock down 2 of them, then follow up by launching 3 enemies away from you. WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE between this and Shunbu, you ask. Well, the difference is, you're not a nub who can't dodge fireballs during this attack, you can move and hit the enemy at the same time. And ZOMG they always get interrupted because you attack RIGHT AWAY.
I've soloed Serpent S with a newman acrotecher in the 80's, I know what I'm talking about. Even when I'm in a party most times I'm someone who tags everything consistently so I'm the one being targeted, not some wimp taking on 1 and 2 enemies at a time or just spamming chikki out of harm's way. People who can't take on the whole group of enemies shouldn't pretend they know what it takes to survive. Why don't you take a below lvl 100 character and try to solo some S+ missions with Shunbu. No nub White Beast please.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-04-04 11:41 ]</font>

[Sekani]

So basically you die in every possible situation where you're not using Buten? Damn son, learn to play.

[Talise]

like I said, if you haven't done it, don't pretend like you know what you're talking about. You can't even post a good strategy so you counter with a nub answer.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-04-04 12:15 ]</font>

[Sekani]

On 2008-04-04 12:12, Talise wrote:
like I said, if you haven't done it, don't pretend like you know what you're talking about. You can't even post a good strategy so you counter with a nub answer.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-04-04 12:15 ]</font>

My strategy has nothing to do with anything being discussed here, but since you asked so nicely....

Level 88 Wartecher, use Cards to whittle down their numbers to something more manageable, then finish the rest with melee PA of my choosing. Somehow I don't die during the process (see your examples above).

[Talise]

I can tell you've never even attempted to solo the mission alone. Secondly, we're talking about AT, not WT, however, WT's even more gimped because you attack even slower than AT. Once again, do the mission before you post, dun set make-pretend examples.

[Sekani]

The "If I can't do it then it can't be done" defense. Nice.

Besides, I thought we were talking about Shunbu, I dunno where all this AT/WT/I can solo better than your cat crap came into the picture.

[Talise]

no, it's called, do it before you flame people. The OP is talking about AT, hence, AT?

[Hrith]

On 2008-04-04 12:12, Talise wrote:
like I said, if you haven't done it, don't pretend like you know what you're talking about. You can't even post a good strategy so you counter with a nub answer.You're the only nub, here. Shunbu is awesome. Two seconds of immobility? what are you smoking? Rising Strike is no faster than Shunbu, and less powerful, less accurate, more vulnerable after use, costs more PP.

Hikai buries Buten 1000000 feet under, it's twice as fast and twice as powerful.
Buten is as weak as it is slow, so while it is easy to hit with it, you're bound to get slaughtered between hits because of the slowness, at one point.


Hikai Shuha-zan is one of the skills I use the most on my Fighgunner, it's really perfect. It's so fast that nothing can counter you, and the second part -- which is really easy to land with a bit of training -- will deal very high damage in like one second, then comes knockback.
Only two targets, so it's really easy to maximize damage.


So yeah, get Hikai first and foremost if you plan on using daggers. Shunbu if you want a juggle PA. Buten is 100% obsolete, don't waste your time leveling a pointless PA.

[Talise]

It's not faster, but Rising Strike hits before Shunbu will, so you're not getting interrupted even before you start. Also, note that I never put Rising Strike up in my example, there's a reason for that. Second of all, you're still agreeing with me because you recommend Hikai. It doesn't matter if Buten sucks, it still doesn't get you killed, you are constantly able to move except for the last part of the second combo. Hikai can do the same thing, but as an EXAMPLE, I used Buten. Prove me wrong on Serpent S2 Hrith, if you really feel like I'm in the wrong.

[Sekani]

On 2008-04-04 12:38, Talise wrote:
no, it's called, do it before you flame people. The OP is talking about AT, hence, AT?


The OP was talking about which PA looked better, and that question was answered in the second post. No wonder you're so confused, you don't have a clue what anyone is talking about, not even yourself.

When you figure out why you're posting here, get back to me.

[Talise]

read page 2

[ljkkjlcm9]

This topic is made of win lol

Shunbu is not worthless, no PA is given the right circumstance. I don't find a need for it personally, as I have other PAs to fill it's roll. Buten is an easy to use, general PA, and is a nice rounded out PA if you like using daggers. Hikai is far stronger and is what I prefer using, but Buten is in no way a bad PA either.

In terms of usage for me it's Hikai > Buten > Shunbu. My acro has all 3, my figh only has the first two.

THE JACKEL



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2008-04-04 13:49 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2008-04-04 13:04, Talise wrote:
Prove me wrong on Serpent S2 Hrith, if you really feel like I'm in the wrong.I'm not sure right now about your example, but Buten is never a good skill to use. I mean, you always have other weapons, right?

I'd rather use powerful moves, most of the time.

Shunbu is a very safe move on big monsters, because it does not move you forward (which also reduces its reach).

Shunbu works wonder on Lapucha and Nava Ludda, but I guess it sucks on Vanda Merha/Orga.

Vanda and Olgohmon are the only monsters against which I do not favour sheer damage, when soloing, so I usually use Rising Crush, Spiral Dance on crowded packs.

Shunbu is a good skill, anyway. I've never been raped (because fo the immobility you're refering to) while using it as much as while using Buten, and both those are Lv40 on my Fighgunner =/

[Talise]

as mentioned above are the choices for AT. As you can see there's not much you can choose from. What you're saying might normally be true, but you will see this difference when you go against the Vanda at the end.

[Yuneiko]

I have Hikai and Shunbu on my AT, and I've solo'd Awoken serpent many times. Vanda foies rape no matter what as an AT, so I don't go into melee with them. I prefer to stick to cards, one handed guns, and twin guns rather than be hit by foie due to ANY melee PA or tech. I only use Shunbu on things such as Drua Gohra, the JA timing for the hits pretty much guarantees the big alligator is on it's side all the time. I'm sure you can do the same exact thing with a whip, but the fact that shunbu knocks up faster than whip knocks away makes me use Shunbu more often.

[Talise]

the reason why it's easier to use a PA on vanda is because it can knock them away. This creates more confusion so you're not always getting shot.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2008-04-04 14:23, Talise wrote:
the reason why it's easier to use a PA on vanda is because it can knock them away. This creates more confusion so you're not always getting shot.


sometimes it easier just to use cards and have them stay where they all spawned. It's easier to keep track of them and dodge the incoming techs.

THE JACKEL

[Talise]

ya the problem with the fire vanda though is they always end up running around no matter what you're doing. The ground vanda are easier to handle because all they do is move towards you.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2008-04-04 14:30, Talise wrote:
ya the problem with the fire vanda though is they always end up running around no matter what you're doing. The ground vanda are easier to handle because all they do is move towards you.



ice cards = freeze + homing shots

There's really no problem here.

plus, we've strayed too far off topic.

THE JACKEL

[Talise]

the problem isn't the ability to hit the target, but how to avoid getting hit from every direction. but ya, we've strayed far... In regard to my "point" I think I've said enough for ppl to decide on their own.

[Magus_84]

On 2008-04-04 14:48, Talise wrote:
the problem isn't the ability to hit the target, but how to avoid getting hit from every direction.

Traps.

On topic...I always liked the look of Shunbu, at least on AT. On other classes, it looks a bit awkward.

[Weeaboolits]

I personally only like to use shunbu on gunners, as for how it looks, I found it underwhelming.

Go go, spindash!

[Sexy_Raine]

Whoa, I didn't expect this http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

After reading this I'm almost convinced to let ANA try Hikai when he goes AF. That might be awhile though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Hrith]

On 2008-04-04 14:03, Talise wrote:
as mentioned above are the choices for AT. As you can see there's not much you can choose from. What you're saying might normally be true, but you will see this difference when you go against the Vanda at the end.AT? I do play AT, and I just use a Vishic or Vish Adac on them. Confused or paralyzed Vanda do nothing + Vivi Danga does good damage, and Vanda usually come in packs of at least three.


On 2008-04-04 14:25, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
sometimes it easier just to use cards and have them stay where they all spawned. It's easier to keep track of them and dodge the incoming techs.The Vanda which are the real threat have a shield icon, making them immune to bullet SEs and resistant to bullet PAs, so card is definitely not an option.

[F-Gattaca]

I'm of the opinion that no PA in the game is worthless, and that each has a useful quality about it that can be harnessed in the right situation.

Maybe that's due to my ranger heritage, who knows.

Still, if you're going for LOOKS ...

Hikai's first combo kinda reminds me of Buten, as if it were some sort of EX version, as fighting game gurus would say. I like that, it has more momentum. I think it'd be pretty cool to open up with Hikai's first combo then switch to Buten for spin-happy combat. Since I'm not Samus, I forgo using the second combo of Hikai.

I use Shunbu just as much as Buten and Hikai (or I WILL once all three PAs are capped; right now, I am focusing on Shunbu). As far as looks goes, I'm not too fond of the first combo, both due to its somewhat slow startup and the way it looks--I don't quite get how that kind of attack launches foes into the air. If Shunbu was more like a one-handed variant of the dual dagger frag PA (whose name I forget at the moment) that would make sense--spinning your dagger like a yoyo in an upwards motion.

(Yeah, yeah, I know! I'm jawing about a game whose photon arts are explicitly designed to make the laws of physics shut up and sit down! Still!)