The fall of the Newman race [Archive]

cel

Apr 6, 2008, 05:37 AM

Rika. Nei. These two names speak volumes of the Newman race. It first became somewhat apparent in PSO, and very much so with PSU, that the Newmans are now but a mere shadow... scratch that... a pale silhouette of their former greatness.

Who said Newmans were meant to be techers? I remember Rika being the best character in PS4, not only by sheer beauty and grace, but because of all-around good stats. She could hit hard with her claws, had decent skills, and could heal Chaz's butt when he couldn't take a beating, the pansy.

Why did sega team lay the beatstick so heavily against the Newmans? Furthermore, why did they have to associate their culture with an antiquated, tacky, and somewhat gratuitously narcissistic oriental overtone? (re: Neudaiz). Granted, they didn't get gypped with simple platform set within a barren desert like the Beasts did, but they also didn't get the appropriately thematic scenery that the robots somehow pulled off.

When PSU inevitably dies, it is my hope that the sequel, should it be released, will feature a complete overhaul redesign of the Newman people. Let us play Newmans who are as generally competent as Rika was, and as memorable as Nei is. And for god's sake, give the Newmans a unique culture and not some blatant spin-off of what the developers are used to.

Rika was also much better than Nei ever could have been. Not only because she was made after Nei, or not simply because of that, but due to the ... well, I don't know. She was better, okay?

As for how PS4 ended with Rika... well, it was forced like those movies that throw in a girl and force romance to appease demographics at the cost of creativity. Chaz was a boring hero and the real star of the story was Rika, though the developers, being notoriously sexist, could not have any of that. What happened to Alys should have happened to Chaz, but didn't, because of the point I alluded to in the previous sentence. Alys and Rika were the dynamic duo in the story and all the other characters were just filler or much too static.

If I could, I'd develop a PS:V and feature an arcane and controversial storyline like Xenosaga, and all the characters are either Newmans, Dezolians, and robots. It could work! A Rika/KOS-MOS hybrid? The fanbois would eat that up.

Zorafim

Apr 16, 2008, 12:39 AM

THANK YOU!

I've been saying this for ages.

Luckily, you can get something pretty close to numans with caseals. That's what I've been using to calm my frustration, just put Levia in a epeciel set whenever not in knight mode. I'm sure acromaster will be similar to the overall feel of old age newmans as well.

landman

Apr 16, 2008, 03:12 AM

Nowadays neumen = elves http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif it is sad but it is true

Sinue_v2

Apr 16, 2008, 07:01 PM

As for how PS4 ended with Rika... well, it was forced like those movies that throw in a girl and force romance to appease demographics at the cost of creativity. Chaz was a boring hero and the real star of the story was Rika, though the developers, being notoriously sexist, could not have any of that. What happened to Alys should have happened to Chaz, but didn't, because of the point I alluded to in the previous sentence. Alys and Rika were the dynamic duo in the story and all the other characters were just filler or much too static.

First things first, Alys had to die, simply because killing off Chaz would have very little impact on the storyline. Indeed, it's because Chaz was such a whiney and barely competent social clutz that made Alys's death all the more poinient - because now we were stuck with him to save Algol?!? That was the intended effect, and it worked out flawlessly. It doesn't matter how superior a character Alys was to Chaz, it simply wouldn't have served the storyline.

And as for the ending, well it might make you happy to know that shortly after PSIV - Chaz (who was also a hunter) died while on a mission for the Hunter's Guild and left Rika to raise the son alone. Although it's unfortunately non-canon, it's the only semi-official word we have on what happened after PSIV.

As for the Numan race on the whole, I think you're doing them a disservice by lauding Nei and Rika, and forgetting the others like Neifirst, NM-2011, and the rest of their sisters. They are the ones who shone light on the true purpose of the Numan project - and even ignoring the obvious "dark vs. light" duality they represented, they gave more depth to Nei and Rika by stressing the point that Numans ARE biomonsters - which means that while traveling with Chaz and Eusis, they were killing their own kind. It's added a lot of depth (I feel) to my own characters in PSU who I regard as Numan. Neika shares a strong bond with Laia Martinez since the SeeD virus incident on Moatoob. A bond forged through a shared trauma - the killing of their own kind in order to bring about the greater good. In Nei's case, she experienced the same thing - except that she sacrificed her own kind in order to protect those who hated and scorned her her entire life, all for the sake of preserving that spark of kindness and compassion which Eusis and her foster parents showed - but which Biomonsters did not. And it could be argued that Nei's sacrifice is what galvanized Eusis in his own fight and sacrifice against his own people in order to liberate them.

HUnewearl_Meira

Apr 24, 2008, 04:13 PM

On 2008-04-06 03:37, cel wrote:
Chaz was a boring hero and the real star of the story was Rika, though the developers, being notoriously sexist, could not have any of that.

Those same developers (including Reiko Kodama, a woman herself, and Yuji Naka, responsible as well for PSO), were the first to place a woman in the lead role of an RPG, and one of the few to do so without making a sex-object out of her. Your "notoriously sexist" comment is entirely unfounded.

panzer_unit

May 13, 2008, 09:49 AM

On 2008-04-06 03:37, cel wrote:
Rika. Nei. These two names speak volumes of the Newman race. It first became somewhat apparent in PSO, and very much so with PSU, that the Newmans are now but a mere shadow... scratch that... a pale silhouette of their former greatness.

Nei had fuzzy ears. Rika had fuzzy ears. They're human-based lifeforms engineered for superior physical performance. PSU calls things like that "Beasts". It's really simple.

In PSO I'd suggest that "newman" in that game is a catch-all term for human lifeforms optimized specifically for any sort of job. Sorta like how "robot" might be some tracked thing built to poke bombs with a sharp stick until they explode, or a car-making arm welded to a factory floor. I don't think that HUnewearl and FOnewearl were the same species... especially having seen the HUnewm concept art, featuring huge muscles, fuzzy ears, and a pretty animalistic face (e.g. where PSU got beasts from). Not a single chromosone in common with the fruity space-pimp guys casting Rafoie from all sorts of ridiculous poses.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-05-13 08:09 ]

Sinue_v2

May 13, 2008, 01:43 PM

especially having seen the HUnewm concept art, featuring huge muscles, fuzzy ears, and a pretty animalistic face (e.g. where PSU got beasts from).

Beasts are inspired by and spiritually descended from Motavians. Takao Miyoshi has confirmed this in interviews and production work.

As far as I know, the HUnewmn was a fluke that was never really intended to be in the game. Much like the Wren model androids. There's actually two HUnewmn concept arts from the Book of Hunters I think. One is the picture you mentioned, the other is some giant pelican looking thing.

Nei had fuzzy ears. Rika had fuzzy ears. They're human-based lifeforms engineered for superior physical performance. PSU calls things like that "Beasts". It's really simple.

"Numan" was never intended to be a "Generic" blanket term for any "GM Humans". The numan race was specifically designed and perfected for their tasks as biosoldiers, and there have been no known variations in the project. Further, Numans for a long time were simply an extension of the Myau character archetype. Even in PSO and PSU where the roles of characters are broadened to allow player choice or maintain balance, prominent Newman females are still cast into the Myau role - such as Sue and Karen Erra.

Even in PSIII where there were no Numans at all, they still carried on the tradition of the character's archetype by introducing Meiu - a cyborg who could use techs, was competent at melee and favored claw weapons. This is why you often see those four characters together in both official and fan artwork. Myau, Meiu, Nei, and Rika are all essentially the same base character.

panzer_unit

May 13, 2008, 03:33 PM

On 2008-05-13 11:43, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Beasts are inspired by and spiritually descended from Motavians. Takao Miyoshi has confirmed this in interviews and production work.

As far as I know, the HUnewmn was a fluke that was never really intended to be in the game.

I think you're reading a lot into the word "inspire". Beasts' appearance and racial backstory clearly have nothing to do with those given for Motavians (who are non-human and the original inhabitants of the planet) instead they look and originated much like Nei and Rika (who were engineered)

ST of course expected a lot of people to play those characters, and have to come up with a place for large numbers of them in the game-world. They need some kind of cultural context instead of all showing up on Rolf's doorstep in cardboard boxes, "unique result of a biomonster DNA experiment, free to a good home" ... so the ugly blue guys get booted from their place in the world in favor of hot catgirls.

Aboriginals can't catch a break even in videogame backstories and it makes me sick.

"Numan" was never intended to be a "Generic" blanket term for any "GM Humans". The numan race was specifically designed and perfected for their tasks as biosoldiers, and there have been no known variations in the project.

The only two examples we have from PSO are HU's and FO's which are both types of soldiers. Maybe there weren't any civillians. It would make sense that they'd be doing something dangerous with their lives if they're at risk of cacking at any moment anyway like Sue says.

Further, Numans for a long time were simply an extension of the Myau character archetype ... e.g. PSU Karen

Karen fits the archetype, but the biggest part of that character's history and storyline is how she is NOT a regular PSU Newman, she can't use techniques at all and Karen becomes that archetypical female warrior character because she's the opposite of a typical PSU newman. I think it's a pretty clear statement that typical PSU newmans have NOTHING to do with characters from the line of Myau, Nei, Rika, etc.

What about Laia Martinez? She's the Myau character for the PSU ep2 storyline, right down to the claw weapons... they used a run of the mill beast girl for that, no need to give storyline tweaks so she's actually suited to the role.

Sinue_v2

May 13, 2008, 04:41 PM

Beasts' appearance and racial backstory clearly have nothing to do with those given for Motavians (who are non-human and the original inhabitants of the planet)

They have quite a lot of similarities you're glossing over. Both are the strongest of the known races in their respective solar systems. Both of them are quite poor at magic. Both of them are poor at forming societies and instead tend to cluster into "clans" or "Families". Beasts were originally designed to keep their beast form permanently - but it required too much energy from them and a half-human/half-beast compromise was made. Both of them are "scavenger" races which make due with what they can.

The Genetic Engineering is about the only thing Beasts and Numans have in common.

They need some kind of cultural context instead of all showing up on Rolf's doorstep in cardboard boxes, "unique result of a biomonster DNA experiment, free to a good home"

More like, Sonic Team didn't think anyone would actually play alien races - so they left them out of their sci-fi planet hoping game and stuck to shallower and safer territory. Not to mention it'd be more work to have to create a bunch of unique Beast clothes tailored to their alien physique. If they make them human, they can just recycle all the fleshie clothes.

As for Nei's backstory, it's actually quite rich if you read the supplametary material and put it into context with Neifirst and the role the Numan project played in Mother Brain's plans. Many of the characters had decently fleshed out backstories, but they weren't presented in-game. In fact, it was the interest in the supplementary materials which clued Sonic Team onto the fact that people WANTED the characters far more fleshed out and it helped make Phantasy Star IV a far more narratively driven game.

The only two examples we have from PSO are HU's and FO's which are both types of soldiers. Maybe there weren't any civillians.

I wasn't refering to PSO Newmans. You were attempting to state that Beasts and Numans are essencially the same race because they were both Genetically Engineered. They are not the same, and never have been. Perhaps you can make the case for PSO, but this thread is about the fall of the Numan race from what they were originally designed and created for, to what they're being used for now. The changes that PSO made to Newmans, even if you can consider Numans and Newmans entirely different races, is a part of that fall.

And there were Newman civilians on Pioneer 2, such as Nol Rinale.

Karen fits the archetype, but the biggest part of that character's history and storyline is how she is NOT a regular PSU Newman

But she was, and always was. She just couldn't access it because of the Photon Seal which was draining away her powers. It's a minor plotpoint in PSU, and is pretty much resolved by chapter 6. Consdiering that PSU spans, so far, 25 chapters - she is represented as that archetype for most of the game's storyline. Even if we don't see very much of her.

As for her being different as a stress to the point that she's not like the typical PSU Newman, it futher illustrates the point trying to be made by the OP that Newmans have changed quite drastically away from Numans in the classic series - and many of the old-school fans of Phantasy Star don't like them being pidgeonholed into the role of "generic space elf in a generic space fantasy game".

As for Laia Martinez, she only really resembles the Myau archetype by her use of claws. She's not good with techniques, she's not extremely agile or quick, she's not intelligent, and she also tends to use an array of heavier weapons like spears and swords. She's more in line with Alys Brangwyn than she is with Rika. I.E. Being the hardass and highly skilled "master" figure who is short with and overly critical of her pupils. Neither one was very smart, but Alys was far more intuitive, professional, and level headed than Laia is. We'll have to wait and see whether or not she dies.

Nai_Calus

May 13, 2008, 06:20 PM

There's actually three HUnewm drawings. Sort of. One's the big hulking ugly thing, one's a much thinner and more 'normal' character type that looks more or less like someone stuck pointy ears on Odin, and the pelican thing, which is on the same page although the text seems to be indicating that it's *not* a newman, which makes me wonder why it's there...

It's stated that they originally planned for 18 classes in PSO but had to cut it to the 9 of DC PSO because of time constraints, so it's not that they 'never really planned to use the HUnewm', the illustrations of him and HUmarl appear to be at about the same point in the design process as the later-used FOmar, HUcaseal and RAmarl, and illustrations of the used classes that are approaching the final designs. Rather, the big ugly bulky HUnewm is done in that same kind of coloured, shaded art style - the Odin look-alike is a rough drawing and the pelican thing is a watercolour with little definition, both consistent with other obviously rather early designs, implying that both were abandoned early on but the HUnewm class got further development to the point we see in the illustration.

Incidentally, the final versions of HUcaseal and RAmarl are extremely similar to the illustrations presented in the Book of Hunters, with relatively little change.

For some god-knows reason FOmar was entirely redesigned. I liked the original FOmar better. >_>

Incidentally, the section presenting early rought design idea sketches has what appears to be a very very early HUnewm idea - A male newman, thin, with what appears to be a pair of claws. It's kind of a shame they discarded ideas like that in favour of the FOnewm.

For that matter, it's kind of a shame they picked FOnewm over FOmar for DC too. Or that they didn't go the opposite way with them - The original FOmar designs bear a slight resemblance to Lutz. FOmar however is a rather mediocre tech caster, best for supporting rather than nuking, but a competent meleer, making him more like a classic newman than two of the three actual newmans in the game. Whereas the FOnewm is, while capable of melee, not that good at it, but he's a good offensive character. Simply for nostalgia purposes it would have been interesting to make the FOnewm more numan/myau-ish and the FOmar more Esper-ish.

...Though, if I had to use a FOnewm for a good melee Force I'd go nuts. >_>

Don't forget perhaps the most prominent civilian newman of all, Elly Person. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif We don't know what she did before she joined the Lab, but she sure as hell wasn't actually a FOnewearl.

I kind of wonder what the 'missing' four classes would have been. Newman Rangers and android Forces? Something else? Between the twelve classes that eventually made it into PSO and the HUmarl and HUnewm, we've got 14... Who knows, heh.

But yeah, useless space elves are annoying. Especially in PSU. -_-;

landman

May 14, 2008, 02:36 AM

So if they made a new game with algonian races (one can dream) which one would be the strongest using techs, Parmanian or Dezolian? (Espers are supposed to be Parmanians, aren't they?) I really hope newman return to their origins in the possible next game... (and with newman ears, not elven ears...)

Nai_Calus

May 14, 2008, 09:23 AM

Other than Rika having black tips on her ears, HUnewearl-type ears look exactly like the ones on the PS numans. >_>; (Nor for that matter do I typically see elves drawn with ears that stick straight out a foot from their heads? o.O)

It's hard to say. Raja is a good tech user, but all the Dezolians you fight as enemies in PSI shoot at you. Raja's skills are also all tech-like things related to him being a priest.

On the other hand, while Espers are indeed Palmans and most Palmans seem to be at least decent with techs, some can't use them at all.

But frankly I'd rather they got away from stereotyping races into certain roles. I greatly dislike having a race that's good at techs to the exclusion of all else, a race oriented towards being a gun-user to the exclusion of all else, a race that's oriented towards being a meleer to the exclusion of all else... PSU's system pisses me off more, and feels more limiting to me, than PSO's did, where at least every race had a decent example of at least two classes. Instead every race in PSU is pigeon-holed into a single job type, except for humans, who suck equally at everything.

Honestly, I'd much rather they got away from that. Do more like, say, D&D. Generate your stats(That'd be a pita though, and everyone would constantly remake for the best stats. >_>), or have an ability point buy system, or a set spread, whatever, maybe racial modifiers to certain stats, perhaps, you know, let us actually customize our characters to an extent. Maybe I want a strong human who can't use any kind of techniques or magic, or a physically frail Esper who can blow up giant rocks for fun, or a more balanced character good at a bit of both. Y'know? PS gives us a wide variety of humans, and then later on in PSO and especially PSU they're all useless jacks-of-no-trades who are never actually good at anything, and all the other races are hopelessly pigeonholed.

So really, I wouldn't want a race that's 'strongest with techs'. Too limiting.

panzer_unit

May 14, 2008, 09:24 AM

On 2008-05-13 14:41, Sinue_v2 wrote:
They have quite a lot of similarities you're glossing over. Both are the strongest of the known races in their respective solar systems. Both of them are quite poor at magic. Both of them are poor at forming societies and instead tend to cluster into "clans" or "Families". Beasts were originally designed to keep their beast form permanently - but it required too much energy from them and a half-human/half-beast compromise was made. Both of them are "scavenger" races which make due with what they can.

The Genetic Engineering is about the only thing Beasts and Numans have in common.

I said ST reused Motavian culture for Beasts, probably because Numan story doesn't work as well when you're dealing with a large number of characters.

Regardless, there are actual story points in common between Numans and Beasts while the only link between Numans and Newmans is re-use of a name.

MotherBrain was on Mota in PSII, it's on Parum in PSU... the series doesn't try to be all that consistent.

More like, Sonic Team didn't think anyone would actually play alien races
...
As for Nei's backstory, it's actually quite rich if you read the supplametary material and put it into context with Neifirst and the role the Numan project played in Mother Brain's plans.

Yeah but that's just one character. They needed a way to make it work as a racial choice, which I don't think could be done decently.

But she was, and always was. She just couldn't access it because of the Photon Seal which was draining away her powers. It's a minor plotpoint in PSU, and is pretty much resolved by chapter 6. Consdiering that PSU spans, so far, 25 chapters - she is represented as that archetype for most of the game's storyline. Even if we don't see very much of her.

As for her being different as a stress to the point that she's not like the typical PSU Newman, it futher illustrates the point trying to be made by the OP that Newmans have changed quite drastically away from Numans in the classic series

Resolving the story about Karen's photon seal and her sister Mirei turns her into an entirely different person.

My point here is that Newmans aren't "Numans" AT ALL; and the OP misses the boat entirely because they should be making the comparison (in PSU at least) with Beast characters. They're not identical, having been merged with Motavians for the sake of cultural context, but it's some meaningful similarities vs none at all.

As for Laia Martinez, she only really resembles the Myau archetype by her use of claws. She's not good with techniques, she's not extremely agile or quick, she's not intelligent, and she also tends to use an array of heavier weapons like spears and swords.

Laia's always depicted using claws from what I've seen. Her use of axes is appropriate to the Motavian influence on the Beast race obviously, too bad she's not a lot more one-dimensional to satisfy the fundamentalists.

I don't see Nei being described as intelligent by anyone (someone does say she's cute) and I don't see where she's particularly good with techs, having nothing but level-appropriate healing techiniques as far as I can recall.

Sinue_v2

May 14, 2008, 11:06 AM

MotherBrain was on Mota in PSII, it's on Parum in PSU...

Er, Mother Brain in PSII wasn't on Mota. She was on the Noah in space. Daughter was on Mota. There may have been a Daughter on Palm as well, as Daughter was meant to be a backup to Mother Brain in case of catastrophic failure. We don't know. There wouldn't have been a Daughter on Dezo simply because Palman humans didn't have a significant presence there. Their main colony outpost was abandoned due to severe toxic gas leaks.

I said ST reused Motavian culture for Beasts, probably because Numan story doesn't work as well when you're dealing with a large number of characters.

Numans could have been written back into the storyline quite easily, since Rika was created to the vanguard of a new race of Motavian humans. She was to spread her genetic information into the world to help better adapt the future generations to changes in Motavian climate as it turned back into a desert world. So that genetic information could be extracted at a later point in time to rebuild the Numan race. Further, SEED wasn't the only Biosystems lab on Motavia. He himself was just a subsystem to GENE who originally restarted the Numan project. So it's possible that another Biosystem lab picked up where SEED left off after he self-destructed.

But that's just for an explanation of Numans in Algol. In another storyline, in another solar system, the reasons for creating Numans/Newmans might be similar, or it might be altered. It doesn't really matter, since in fiction you can alter the storyline to fit the premise. They could have kept Numans as they were and used a thousand different reasons why.

Further, PSU Newmans and Beasts share a history of being genetically modified. The only difference between the two is the reasons for why they were created. Newmans were created to better harness Photon technology. Beasts were created as slaves for manual labor. Neither of these races were created to be biosoldiers the way Numans were.

If you JUST skim the surface information, Numans and Newmans were created for the same reason. An experiment in creating a superior human. It's not until you look at the supplimentary information in both cases that you see the real underlying motivations for their creation. Beasts have always had their reason for creation known quite clearly. They are designed specifically for manual labor in the mines. It just wasn't explained that they were always intended to be slaves until later.

They're not identical, having been merged with Motavians for the sake of cultural context

Er, no. In a cultural context, Numans were merged with Dezolians. This is most obviously seen in the level of importance which both races hold religion. Newmans are ruled by a theocracy with the Communion of Gurhal as it's head of state. Dezolian culture is deeply rooted in their worship of fire and light, and their most sacred artifact - the Eclipse Torch - plays a major role in the series. Not to mention that the only Dezolians charater to join your party in any of the games, is a priest. No other races in Algol are shown to have any sort of religion outside of Christianity (apparently), and worshiping ancient dark gods (Dark Force). (And the churches of PSI were simply a generic gameplay mechanic for reviving characters. They do not make an appearance in any later game or the PSI remake)

Again, I see absolutely no similarities between Beasts of PSU and Numans of PS aside from "Genetic Engineering" - of which the Newmans of PSU also share in common.

I don't see Nei being described as intelligent by anyone

Considering that she's only roughly a year old, I'd say she's pretty intelligent for her age. She never had any formal education, since she was "split" from her sister. Nei and Neifirst were the same person, and Nei existed as a fractured shard of Neifirst's mind. This is why you can kill Nei and not harm Neifirst... but killing Neifirst is fatal to Nei. Neifirst, was extremely intelligent. She was the one who manipulated the Biosystems labs and began breeding biomonsters enmasse. Numan intelligence was later demonstrated more fully with Rika who being of a similar age, was already the most knowledgeable member of your party outside of Wren of Demi. What Rika lacked, however, was real-world experience and her childish nievete showed. That's what happens when you're cooped up in a lab most of your life and fed knowledge from a computer terminal.

As for techniques, Nei was quite adept at Techs - albiet, healing techniques. Mostly those centered around her theme of sacrifice, but she was your party's #1 healer for the first half of the game until Amy who was a trained medic was high enough level to take over. At which point, Nei died. Rika showed much more potential with techniques, as she filled the same role for much of PSIV and had a wider bredth of techniques to use.

Neither Nei or Rika were adept at offensive techniques. Both characters technique abilities were primarily support oriented. They offered healing and protection for the party. This is in line with Myau's role in PSI - as his magic was primarily support using spells such as Exit, Trap, Terrify, Wall, Cure, and Help.

And to say that Numans were adept at techniques does not mean they were powerful casters. They have never been on the level of pure-casting characters such as Raja, Rune, Lutz, Kira, etc. Many human characters, even in combat roles, are at least similarly competent in techniques. Just different kinds of technqiues, generally more offensively related than defensively.

Laia's always depicted using claws from what I've seen.

And again, that means... what? Claws are not the only defining characteristic of the Myau archetype, and it's the only trait she shares in common. As for not being one-dimensional, I'd beg to differ - but that is a result of poor storytelling and character development. A problem that most all PSU characters share in common.

[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-14 09:17 ]

landman

May 14, 2008, 12:08 PM

So in the end:

PSU newmen = Dezolians
PSU Beasts = Motavians
PSU "numen" = do not exist

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

panzer_unit

May 14, 2008, 12:32 PM

On 2008-05-14 09:06, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Numans could have been written back into the storyline quite easily, since Rika was created to the vanguard of a new race of Motavian humans. She was to spread her genetic information into the world to help better adapt the future generations to changes in Motavian climate as it turned back into a desert world.

Golly, just like PSU newmenbeasts. Catgirls engineered to live on Mota. But "hi, we just walked out of an automated lab, nice to meetcha" is way too shallow for a premise for an entire race in an online RPG.

Er, no. In a cultural context, Numans were merged with Dezolians.

... what argument have you got to back that up? That they're called "newmen"? The name could just indicate "men of New Dezolis".

I don't see Nei being described as intelligent by anyone

Considering that she's only roughly a year old, I'd say she's pretty intelligent for her age.

As for techniques, Nei was quite adept at Techs - albiet, healing techniques. Mostly those centered around her theme of sacrifice, but she was your party's #1 healer for the first half of the game until Amy who was a trained medic was high enough level to take over.

Nei's also incredibly big for a one-year-old. She was force-grown to some teen-equivalent age and it's safe to assume her brain got similar treatment. If she had deft reasoning skills, I'd consider her as smart.

Similarly tThe only "good" thing about Nei's technique ability was that she had nothing more valuable to save MP for than spamming Res. All of the humans could cast that and far more.

And to say that Numans were adept at techniques does not mean they were powerful casters. They have never been on the level of pure-casting characters such as Raja, Rune, Lutz, Kira, etc. Many human characters, even in combat roles, are at least similarly competent in techniques.

Beasts are a close second to humans in casting power. There's another significant similarity. PSU has a match for the catgirl characters of older games, they're just not called "newmen"... I think the colonists of New Dezolis called dibs on that before the species was created in a lab.

And again, that means... what? Claws are not the only defining characteristic of the Myau archetype, and it's the only trait she shares in common.

It's series symbology. Sort of like the obvious significance of a Star Wars character using a light saber. When a character uses a claw in a PS story, that's a pretty clear "hey remember Nei? Remember Rika? This one's like just that."

landman

May 14, 2008, 01:05 PM

What I get from what you two are saying is that both PSU newman and beast are "numan" in origin but none of them is fiscally a "numan", instead their abilities and cultures are more similar to motavians and dezolians, so, in the end, the "numan" race doesn't exist in PSU, there are only Dezolians with another name and skin http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

panzer_unit

May 14, 2008, 01:36 PM

On 2008-05-14 11:05, landman wrote:
What I get from what you two are saying is that both PSU newman and beast are "numan" in origin but none of them is fiscally a "numan", instead their abilities and cultures are more similar to motavians and dezolians, so, in the end, the "numan" race doesn't exist in PSU, there are only Dezolians with another name and skin http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Fiscally? Like in terms of cash balances?

I'm saying if you wanted a PSU character as much like Nei or Rika as possible you could roll Beast and get something very similar, right down to the furry pointed ears (Rika's obviously, and Nei's are purple from behind as well according to PSII combat screens on my PSP)

"A Numan by any other name is still a frontline combat character with techniques for support only."

... Newmans also have pointy ears, but those are the only applicable similarities and even at that it's less accurate.

landman

May 14, 2008, 01:49 PM

lol that was a typo xDD sorry, I mean physically

Sinue_v2

May 14, 2008, 07:24 PM

Golly, just like PSU newmenbeasts. Catgirls engineered to live on Mota. But "hi, we just walked out of an automated lab, nice to meetcha" is way too shallow for a premise for an entire race in an online RPG.

Er, she was still a bio-soldier first and foremost. She is a Nei-Series clone with very slight alterations. GENE spent 1,000 years correcting and perfecting genetic instabilities which caused the NM-1000 series to be rejected. The purpose of the Numan project was to destroy humanity and replace it with a superior race. When GENE was destroyed by Wren and Demi, SEED took over the project and with Nei's help only spent a few short years altering the genetic code and testing before Rika was created.

They were biosoldiers. Not slaves.

As for simply "walking out of a lab", you're right. That is a shallow premise. One that both PSO and PSU uses to a large degree.

.. what argument have you got to back that up?

Read what I wrote, and you'll have your answer. But, considering that you won't even take the game designers word on what they intended to be references (i.e. Beasts come from Motavians) in their own game, I really shouldn't be surprised that it's not good enough for you.

Nei's also incredibly big for a one-year-old. She was force-grown to some teen-equivalent age and it's safe to assume her brain got similar treatment. If she had deft reasoning skills, I'd consider her as smart.

That makes no sense. If you were to create a clone of yourself, at present age, would it be reasonable to expect that clone to have learned everything you currently know you have from experience, school, recreation, etc within the span of one year? If her brain has an accelerated pace of learning and memory retention, then yes, that makes them highly intelligent and more intelligent humans simply because she can learn that much faster.

And again, Nei/Neifirst did not have the benefit of a formal education that Rika did. And yet, Neifirst was able to very quickly learn and master the operation of a very complex bioengineering facility.

In any case, it does not fit in at all with Beasts who are known to be a very stupid and slow race of people. This is stated - BY BEASTS even - several times in the storyline. Motavians, similarly, are quite prone to being uneducated and rather thick. They're fighters, not scholars. But one thing they DO well, however, is tinker. They are quite mechanically inclined and often hobble things together from junkpiles. Kinda sounds similar to Kubara, and their cheap black-market knockoffs doesn't it?

All of the humans could cast that and far more.

You need to go back over your PSII technique chronology.

Beasts are a close second to humans in casting power.

Beasts are the worst of the organic races at casting techniques. They top only an artificial race to which the presence of a "soul" is still debatable - and the "soul" or "Spirit" is what determines technique strength. In PSO, they could not use techniques at all, nor could they cast techniques in the classic series with the lone exception of Meiu and her model line. They, however, were cyborgs. A mixture of both organic and non-organic life.

I think the colonists of New Dezolis called dibs on that before the species was created in a lab.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

It's series symbology. Sort of like the obvious significance of a Star Wars character using a light saber. When a character uses a claw in a PS story, that's a pretty clear "hey remember Nei? Remember Rika? This one's like just that."

Again, that's a very weak position to take. Lucaim Nav also uses claws primarily, and also uses fists, both of which are very quick, lightweight, and close range weapons which Numans in the past have prefered. In fact, that would make him closer to the Numan archetype because he doesn't use any heavy weapons at all.

landman

May 15, 2008, 04:03 AM

Technically no one has the ability to cast TECHNICs in PSU, there are the weapons that allow the characters to use them, just like some melee and guns in PSO have a special effect based on a TECHNIC.

Sinue_v2

May 15, 2008, 07:35 AM

The Divine Maiden can and certain high-ranking officials in the COG and their children can. Technically, anybody COULD, but the process by which to enable people to cast techniques without Wands and Rods is illegal.

panzer_unit

May 15, 2008, 09:00 AM

On 2008-05-14 17:24, Sinue_v2 wrote:
(Numans) They were biosoldiers. Not slaves.

... it's dangerous physical labor for someone else's benefit. Or are you saying that engineered Photon technology researchers are more like biosoldiers?

As for simply "walking out of a lab", you're right. That is a shallow premise. One that both PSO and PSU uses to a large degree.

Sounds like "I am rubber you are glue..." are you going to back that up with an example?

.. what argument have you got to back that up?

Read what I wrote, and you'll have your answer.

You wrote exclusively about how PSU Newmans are like Dezolians. No mention of what makes them anything like Numans. So is it the pointy ears or the recycled name? 'cause that's all they've got.

If her brain has an accelerated pace of learning and memory retention, then yes, that makes them highly intelligent and more intelligent humans simply because she can learn that much faster.

In any case, it does not fit in at all with Beasts who are known to be a very stupid and slow race of people.

I just let Rolf get killed and bought a replacement from the Clone Lab. Oh look, he knows everything the original did. He must be super-intelligent too because, he instantly learned all the techs and everything the original took a whole career to figure out! Or the cloning process is good at preformatting a normal-quality brain with tons of information. If it works on Kain it will work on anything.

Beasts are the worst of the organic races at casting techniques.

They're perfectly fine with the same techniques that Numans use in the genesis games... support in PSU is much less TP dependent. Meanwhile they're ill-suited to the offensive techs Nei and Rika never used.

Again, that's a very weak position to take. Lucaim Nav also uses claws primarily, and also uses fists, both of which are very quick, lightweight, and close range weapons which Numans in the past have prefered. In fact, that would make him closer to the Numan archetype because he doesn't use any heavy weapons at all.

Yes, if they made Nav catlike and put him in your party most of the time that would be totally valid. Fortunately for everyone that role went to Laia.

landman

May 16, 2008, 02:45 AM

In any case, it does not fit in at all with Beasts who are known to be a very stupid and slow race of people.
Dr Tomrain is a Beast...

Sinue_v2

May 16, 2008, 06:05 AM

... it's dangerous physical labor for someone else's benefit.

/facepalm

Please, seriously, tell me you know the difference between a soldier and a slave.

are you going to back that up with an example?

How do you expect me to quantify a point about a LACK of information concerning their origin? Go through the PSO/PSU scripts and point out where the origins of Numans (or even CASTS for that matter) is anywhere near as detailed or woven into the overall storylines as Numen are in the original PS series. It isn't, and further, what little information IS present is poorly thought out and contradictory - especially in PSO's case. I.E. Dr. Montegue (a Newman) created the Newman race.

You wrote exclusively about how PSU Newmans are like Dezolians. No mention of what makes them anything like Numans.

That was the point of that segment of my reply, about how Numans were blended with Dezolian culture. You asked what evidence I had to support it, after I already presented the evidence. Aren't you following the discussion?

I just let Rolf get killed and bought a replacement from the Clone Lab. Oh look, he knows everything the original did.

Clones are not the same person they were cloned from. Rika is a clone of Nei, yet she is not Nei. The "Clone Lab" is simply a replacement for a "Church" to give a sci-fi explanation to ressurection, and isn't a major plotpoint. As such, there is no information as to how a cloned person would have the same memories, knowledge, and experience. It simply wasn't important enough to explain. Perhaps it happened like PSO Ep III where Kranz died and was "cloned" in a similar manner. In such a case, the cloned brain was created from the outset with all the proper neural pathways and such already in place. Information on changes in neural pathways (I.E. memories, knowledge, personality) were constantly updated while he was still alive so they could recreate him at the moment just before his death.

Creating a brain with the proper chemistry and neural pathways already in place from the outset is different than a brain which has no knowledge perset and must form those pathways as it learns.

And this is not to mention that both the Phantasy Star Compendium and World of Phantasy Star books make mention of their intelligence, as well as the intelligence of Musk Cats - the race which they were inspired by. So again, you have the character designers word against... well, yours.

They're perfectly fine with the same techniques that Numans use in the genesis games... support in PSU is much less TP dependent. Meanwhile they're ill-suited to the offensive techs Nei and Rika never used.

Not all support spells are non-reliant on TP, such as Resta and GiResta. Also, what limits most support techniques in PSU is not a character's race, but their job. In the original games, you did not differenciate between a character and their job. In PSU, you do, because characters are designed from the outset to be as "blank slate" as possible to allow players the freedom of choice on how to play their characters.

What is most important in defining stereotypes that the designers wish to impart, is to look at the characters who's jobs cannot change. The NPC's. Not ONE beast in your party is ever shown to be competent at techniques, even support, or presented as such.

I feel like I'm debating a Creationist here....

Dr Tomrain is a Beast...

You're wrong.

landman

May 16, 2008, 07:32 AM

If I am wrong then you are saying the PSU Perfect bible is also wrong because in page 71 it explicitly says that Kanal Tomrain is a Beast, the same for The Elements of PSU (artbook), page 52, and I don't have the AOI Perfect Bible yet but I doubt this information will be any different in there.

Sinue_v2

May 16, 2008, 09:56 AM

First off, has either book been translated and uploaded in the same manner in which the PSCompendium or World of PS books have? And if so, please provide a link. I will do so as well for the PSC and WoPS books if you want.

Secondly, the books are wrong then. Or the translation was wrong. The games themselves takes priority canonically over all other media, official or not. Dr. Tomrain has a human character model, with no distinguishable Beast traits. IIRC, Nor does he register as a Beast when you compare luck of Human Males and Beast Males while you have him in your party during story missions. He may be PART beast, but not a full one. And yes, they can crossbreed with other races.

The only time supplementary information is considered canon is when it's officially licensed and approved by the game designers and when there is no contradictory information on the subject in the game itself.

Regardless, the entire point doesn't matter as there ARE Beast scientists which are shown throughout the game. That doesn't mean that Beasts as a whole are known as an intelligent race - just like No Vol doesn't set the presidence that humans are an unintelligent race.

[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-16 08:09 ]

panzer_unit

May 16, 2008, 11:31 AM

On 2008-05-16 04:05, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Please, seriously, tell me you know the difference between a soldier and a slave.

I do. So you're saying the research purpose PSU Newmen were engineered for is MORE like soldiering than the purpose Beasts were engineered for? That it makes them the "obvious" fit?

What about Rika, her purpose - according to you, before it got you between a rock and a hard place - was adaption to life on an increasingly-harsh Mota. Exactly like Beasts. Whoops, eh?

You wrote exclusively about how PSU Newmans are like Dezolians. No mention of what makes them anything like Numans.

That was the point of that segment of my reply, about how Numans were blended with Dezolian culture. You asked what evidence I had to support it, after I already presented the evidence. Aren't you following the discussion?

Seriously, what about PSU's Newmen is like Numen AT ALL? You only pointed out the similarities with Dezolians. All I see is pointy ears, and even at that Beasts do a better job thanks to fur.

If you had any substantial argument on this point you would have used it by now. Instead all you can do is plug your ears and yell LA LA LA. I'm willing to listen to reason but you have to give me something reasonable to listen to.

And this is not to mention that both the Phantasy Star Compendium and World of Phantasy Star books make mention of their intelligence, as well as the intelligence of Musk Cats - the race which they were inspired by. So again, you have the character designers word against... well, yours.
...
games themselves takes priority canonically over all other media, official or not.

Ooh, I've been told by "the bible". But why do the catgirl characters in-game seem so simple minded? Which takes priority?

While Beasts are stereotyped as stupid, Laia (mostly) and Leo are pretty sharp when it comes to observiation, judging character, and reasoning things out. Tylor - regardless of how the battle goes - decides to side with the Guardians based on the character of their leader. On the whole they're not really well-informed, but Beasts tend to make good use of any information they do find out.

Beast-made technology is pretty impressive too... Tenora Works weapons and armor are the most statistically impressive most of the time, and the Rogue ship seems superior to everything else in the sky.

Not all support spells are non-reliant on TP, such as Resta and GiResta. Also, what limits most support techniques in PSU is not a character's race, but their job. In the original games, you did not differenciate between a character and their job. In PSU, you do, because characters are designed from the outset to be as "blank slate" as possible to allow players the freedom of choice on how to play their characters.

Both healing techs restore far more health per point of TP than damaging techniques, allowing race/job combinations who would never consider using offensive techniques to function quite adequately as healers. There are even a lot of Casts in those roles. A support-focused Beast WT or AT is absolutely the best example though. They make the most of the class' physical attacks, and still do a good job on the support side... much like the original PS-series catgirl characters did.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-05-16 11:19 ]

Sinue_v2

May 16, 2008, 01:22 PM

So you're saying the research purpose PSU Newmen were engineered for is MORE like soldiering than the purpose Beasts were engineered for? That it makes them the "obvious" fit?

No, and I never did. Neither purpose for either Beasts OR Newmans fits the origins of Numen. And of course, the purpose of this thread is to discuss (and complain about) the changes they have made in Numen/Newmen. Changes just such as this. But honestly, since PSU and PS are not connected by storyline, they really shouldn't HAVE similar origins anyhow. The problem I (and others) have with their origin in PSU is that it reinforces the stereotype that Newmen should be non-melee tech casters.

What about Rika, her purpose - according to you, before it got you between a rock and a hard place - was adaption to life on an increasingly-harsh Mota. Exactly like Beasts. Whoops, eh?

Er, no. The only thing that changed in Rika's purpose was that she was no longer designed to kill humans, and instead to spread her genetic legacy. She is still very much an engineered Biosoldier and very lethal in combat. She is still considered part of the Numan Project - although I couldn't say whether or not she's still a part of the NM-2000 series.

Seriously, what about PSU's Newmen is like Numen AT ALL? You only pointed out the similarities with Dezolians. All I see is pointy ears, and even at that Beasts do a better job thanks to fur.

I still don't see how having the exact same physical form and damned neared the exact same name (which is phonically similar) isn't enough to make a logical conclusion, to say nothing of the game designer's own words. You're basically trying to argue the same point as saying Cait Sith wasn't a Moogle. And you're pretty much the only person who doesn't see it. But aside from that, you could also toss Agility onto the list. It's a bit of a moot point, but PS Numen are described as "lithe and agile", and PSU Newmen have the highest evasion in the game. Then there's also their intelligence and fast development/maturity rate (albiet, much slower than PS Numen it's still faster than humans).

It should be in the PSU script I wrote up. I believe it was Purol who mentioned it.

Also, Rika didn't have fur. The tips of her ears were black, but that doesn't mean they were furry. Even so, her ears are still a far better match to Newman ears than those fish-fins or lamb-chop ears that beasts have. The closest Beasts can come to Numan ears are Leo & Laia's ears, and they are not only an exception, they are not furry either.

If you had any substantial argument on this point you would have used it by now.

And you would have ignored it. Which is why I made the creationist statement.

It's simple: neither of the Numans in the PS games end up seeming terribly smart. In fact the Neis seem downright simple-minded.

It's a matter of opinion vs. fact. In your opinion they don't seem smart. The fact: In the games themselves, and in supplementary data they are said to be highly intelligent.

The Newmen of PSU don't seem to be extremely intelligent either, at least, not above Human standards by the way they act. But that doesn't change the fact that they are the most intelligent race as stated by the PSU development team and source material.

Or maybe the original plan was not thinking about Numen being all that bright... character designers never have moments of fanboy revisionism, like if someone were to go back and make Greedo fire at Han Solo before Han shoots him with a blaster readied under the canteena table.

Probably, maybe, possibly, could be, uncertainty.

It doesn't matter because even were that the case, you and your opinion are not the authoritative word on the matter. They are.

While Beasts are stereotyped as stupid, Laia (mostly) and Leo are pretty sharp when it comes to observiation, judging character, and reasoning things out.

Laia mentions quite often how stupid she is, and how she's more of a fighter than a thinker. Maybe she's just exaggerating, but she still self-concious about it. Leo, perhaps, but again - that's an exception. We're talking about them as a race, not as individuals. And the only reason why Nei/Rika is brought up in the discussion is because they and previous few other individuals (Neifirst, NM-2011, and perhaps Rui) constitute the entire PS Numan race.

[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-16 11:23 ]

panzer_unit

May 16, 2008, 03:31 PM

On 2008-05-16 11:22, Sinue_v2 wrote:

So you're saying the research purpose PSU Newmen were engineered for is MORE like soldiering than the purpose Beasts were engineered for? That it makes them the "obvious" fit?

No, and I never did. Neither purpose for either Beasts OR Newmans fits the origins of Numen.

Beasts however are much closer between the two. As they are for appearance. As they are for overall character balance (superior melee combatants and capable healers/support-casters)

And of course, the purpose of this thread is to discuss (and complain about) the changes they have made in Numen/Newmen.

When instead you could be complaining LESS because there's a decent continuity between Numen/Beasts. But if someone ever chose the "less complaining" option I assume the PSOW server would explode or something.

Er, no. The only thing that changed in Rika's purpose was that she was no longer designed to kill humans, and instead to spread her genetic legacy. She is still very much an engineered Biosoldier and very lethal in combat.

Beasts are designed to work in mines, but they're very lethal in combat too. They weren't INTENDED to be biosoldiers, neither was Rika. They just happen to have all the right genetic makeup for it.

I still don't see how having the exact same physical form and damned neared the exact same name (which is phonically similar) isn't enough to make a logical conclusion, to say nothing of the game designer's own words. You're basically trying to argue the same point as saying Cait Sith wasn't a Moogle. And you're pretty much the only person who doesn't see it. But aside from that, you could also toss Agility onto the list. It's a bit of a moot point, but PS Numen are described as "lithe and agile", and PSU Newmen have the highest evasion in the game.

Also, Rika didn't have fur. The tips of her ears were black, but that doesn't mean they were furry.

Spoilers: Cait Sith is an automaton remote-controlled by a Shinra corp executive for the purpose of spying on Cloud. His deception is revealed mid-story too. Hell no, it's not a moogle. It just looks like a moogle. That character fits the depressing technological disaster theme of FF7 way better than an actual cutesy little marshmallow person would.

We've got a bunch of characters that are made by combining monster DNA with human, who are indirectly related to a race of cats, who are named after cat sounds (meow, nyo, mew), who stereotypically attack with claws ... we're tripping animal references, but obviously we're going to group them with the space elves and bitch about it the whole way because:
* their names are similar to something written up in background stories
* lithe and agile
* intelligent
* furry ears are too ugly

When does the term Numan see use in the PS-series games? I don't remember any instances of it at all. Outside of this thread I've only seen the characters referred to as biomonsters and cat-girls.

Lithe and agile? Intelligent? You'll wreck your racial choice just to get stats that vaguely match two pieces of description fluff, instead of the actual capabilities of the characters you're trying to represent? It doesn't make any sense. Being "lithe and agile" in PSU comes down to choosing a fighter job with lots of light weapons and equipping a bunch of kung-fu backflip PA's. The only race-related "lithe and agile" you're gonna get is... you guessed it... female beast nanoblast. Sassy walk, backflips, claw attacks.

Same with intelligence. All TP does is make Newmen really good at Photon technology, it doesn't say anything about how smart they are. There are a few very smart newmen in the PSU storyline, but humans and casts supply their own share of brainiacs... as do beasts, despite stated stereotypes.

re: ears... what? you must have fun kidding yourself like that. The back of Nei's ears are the same color as her hair. Different-color eartips like Rika has are a common animal coloration. So what if you don't like the PSU graphics for it? It doesn't change the fact that Beast race best represents the capabilities of the Numen characters as they've existed throughout the PS game series.

Laia mentions quite often how stupid she is, and how she's more of a fighter than a thinker. Maybe she's just exaggerating, but she still self-concious about it.

IMO it's because she needs some kind of vulnerable side (besides just being worn out from overwork) to attract sympathy in the ep3 storyline, otherwise she would just be too goddamned competent. Also it's more effective for decision making if you just tell people when they're going over your head. Executives do that a lot.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-05-16 13:38 ]

landman

May 17, 2008, 02:14 AM

On 2008-05-16 07:56, Sinue_v2 wrote:
First off, has either book been translated and uploaded in the same manner in which the PSCompendium or World of PS books have? And if so, please provide a link. I will do so as well for the PSC and WoPS books if you want.

Secondly, the books are wrong then. Or the translation was wrong. The games themselves takes priority canonically over all other media, official or not. Dr. Tomrain has a human character model, with no distinguishable Beast traits. IIRC, Nor does he register as a Beast when you compare luck of Human Males and Beast Males while you have him in your party during story missions. He may be PART beast, but not a full one. And yes, they can crossbreed with other races.

The only time supplementary information is considered canon is when it's officially licensed and approved by the game designers and when there is no contradictory information on the subject in the game itself.
[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-16 08:09 ]

Isn't it officially licensed being the official guide and the official artbook?

I hardly believe in translations, that's why I always check the original version, and links? better, just took the photo with my camera

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/951/cimg3161ie5bx4.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6016/cimg3164vs2ti1.jpg

In case you are not used to reading katakana check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana

Now if you provide the lines in the game where it is stated that he is human, I will check first the Japanese game and then believe those books are... inaccurate

Myphys

May 19, 2008, 02:21 AM

Kanal Tomrain: Human
http://www.phantasystaruniverse.com/charworld_factions_characters.php#12

Do they have an equivalent page on the Japanese website?

Zorafim

May 25, 2008, 03:08 AM

What in bloody hell happened to this thread?

Aumi

May 25, 2008, 03:48 AM

Rika. Nei. These two names speak volumes of the Newman race. It first became somewhat apparent in PSO, and very much so with PSU, that the Newmans are now but a mere shadow... scratch that... a pale silhouette of their former greatness.

You're right about these things. I just don't agree that Rika was better. Sure, if you look at her abilities in the game, she is better. But that's simply because it was a later game. Nei also had a reincarnation in the PS Memorial Drama CD. There she killed one of the newest Nei-models, although she herself was an old one. She was created, but it seems she had taken over the original NeiSecond's personality, unlike all the other clones. She also met Chaz/Rudy in that story. I think it played 3 years before PSIV.
Also, it would surely be possible to make some sort of assassin class, especially suited for numans, with great attack potential, evasion and some of the best support techs. They could also make a new weapon class: bar, the original small claws the numans used. But I wouldn't believe that ST would fulfill such a wish of ours. :(

Mysterious-G

May 25, 2008, 07:19 AM

Aumi, make your Newman Acrotecher. :-?
EDIT: Or Wartecher seems even better.
It's as near as you can get it.

HUnewearl_Meira

May 25, 2008, 03:05 PM

They could also make a new weapon class: bar, the original small claws the numans used.

"Bar" was a pretty bad translation of "Claw", in Phantasy Star II. I would guess that they probably called it a "bar" instead of a "claw" to avoid legal issues with Marvel Comics, and their belovedly popular Wolverine. As far as the graphics of the game are concerned, there is no doubt as to what the "bar" actually is.

Aumi

May 31, 2008, 02:25 PM

It's just that the claws in PSO and PSU seem like some heavy/big-ass overkill weapons instead of those good old assassination-claws. What should I say... They are simply TOO BIG. :(

F-Gattaca

Jun 1, 2008, 10:08 AM

It's just that the claws in PSO and PSU seem like some heavy/big-ass overkill weapons instead of those good old assassination-claws. What should I say... They are simply TOO BIG. :(

You could always use the Yohmei A-rankers. They seem the most compact of the bunch.

And dammit.

Every time I see someone say "useless space elves -_-;;;" I wish we had more character slots so I could make a fighting-type Newman to prove 'em wrong.

Which is funny--I thought the OP's initial complaining post at least recognized the PSU newmans for what they are--balatantly Japanese--and then I read on further to see the chantings of "space elf!! SPACE ELF!!!" from others. Gee, I wonder if anyone would actually be able to tell a Japanese person from a Tolkein elf if the former was wearing spock ears? Apparently not.

Either way, I still maintain what I've said all along--I've been able to accept what became of Newmans in PSU because, from the classic games to the current installments, I can easily see how it works as the development of newmans from experimental GM prototypes to a full-fledged race to a civilization. I said it before, but even though the Numans have taken up the torch from Dezorians (no pun intended), that stage was already set by sentiments from numans I saw in PSO. Sue's bitter "Science is not as mighty as people believe" remark, for example.

Just as the founding fathers of the U.S. took a lot of stock from classical Greco-Roman architecture and whatnot, I don't see much difference in the fact that the Newmans did the same thing, just that they took it to an even greater level.

Of course, that begs the question why they would have an Asian culture to model their own off of when we never saw anything that balatant in the classic series--but then we saw hints of that in PSO, with occasional shout-outs to Japanese and/or Asian stuff. Samurai swords, etc.

Nai_Calus

Jun 1, 2008, 12:06 PM

I used to have a newman Fighgunner.

By the time I quit I had a beast Fighgunner. >_>

And last time I looked the Japanese were not lulz magicalz. The look of PSU's newman culture is Japanese, sure, but what they're supposed to be good for is in line with the standard modern fantasy version of Elves. (Which isn't even in line with Tolkein Elves, who tend to be archers and warriors and not fucking mages who can't do anything else.)

But yeah, PSU Newmans seem to be going more for the whole magically-attuned harmony-with-nature thing that tends to be associated with, yeah, elves. Sure, they're wearing bastardized kimonos, but that doesn't mean they're not space elves.

F-Gattaca

Jun 1, 2008, 01:02 PM

And last time I looked the Japanese were not lulz magicalz.

So. Phantasy Star-style magic automatically overrides a very Japanese numan culture and totally justifies calling a horse a duck (or in this case, a numan an elf)?

:-?

The look of PSU's newman culture is Japanese, sure, but what they're supposed to be good for is in line with the standard modern fantasy version of Elves. (Which isn't even in line with Tolkein Elves, who tend to be archers and warriors and not fucking mages who can't do anything else.)

I was under the impression that was exactly what typical fantasy portrayed elves as--forest dwelling rangers. If you're assuming Warcraft--which HAS tried to reseat their elves into a more magic-oriented lifestyle--is the baseline for fantasy, well, uh ... Yeah. I never played Warcraft II, but I could swear back in those days they were stereotypical AD&D-style bow-wielding ranger elves, before WC3 seriously tried to change things around.

But yeah, PSU Newmans seem to be going more for the whole magically-attuned harmony-with-nature thing that tends to be associated with, yeah, elves. Sure, they're wearing bastardized kimonos, but that doesn't mean they're not space elves.

They're only space elves to people who like epileptic tree theories, really. ("Oh yeah, the shaking trees on the first season of Lost? That's totally because the trees are epileptic!")

For God's sake, man. I know being a fanboy of Japanese culture is a stigma, but even someone with only backround awareness would recognize that "magically-attuned harmony-with-nature thing" as being a shout-out to the various philosophies and religions that are traditional to Japan--zen buddhism, taoism, and shintoism.

Especially Shintoism, with one of its affirmations being love of nature. ("Nature is sacred; to be in contact with nature is to be close to the kami. Natural objects are worshipped as containing sacred spirits.") Besides. Ever been to Shitenkaku? That doesn't look like Rivendell to me! That looks like a freaking Shinto shrine!

Actually, while we're on that subject. The ur-fantasy characteristic of Elves--which started with Tolkein, but even in standard fantasy and Warcraft--is that they are an elder race compared to humans. In cases like Tolkein's universe, they were the first "mortal" (okay ... that doesn't quite work. How about non-divine?) race awakened on Arda. Typically if an elven race wasn't among the first intelligent species, they're almost always older than the human race anyway.

In Phantasy Star, it was the humans that created the numans. This held true all the way from PS2 to PSU--and on top of that, humans created all the other playable races in both PSO and PSU.

Aumi

Jun 1, 2008, 04:41 PM

Wise words, F-Gattaca, wise words... I love the Japanese culture myself. I think you can't really compare numans to elves. They're very different. Their style of magic also can't be compared to that of elves if you ask me. And actually you can make decent assassin numans in PSU. After all, they ARE the class with the best EVP. I use my Nei 'reincarnation' in PSU for both Fortefighter and Wartecher (perhaps also Masterforce). After I get FT to level 20 (need a half level yet), I'll continue leveling WT, and use only claws, daggers, and support techs. I'd wish AT had claws, since they would be the best matching class. I really hope that ST will add that sometime. But I'll level that too, with daggers, whips and support techs.
Actually, AT, if it had claws, would match incredibly well for a classic numan.

Nai_Calus

Jun 1, 2008, 05:10 PM

Elves-as-magical-sissy-fairies is what gets used when people try to(Badly) get away from the Tolkein stereotype.

And you entirely miss the point being made in calling them space elves.

It's a term of derision for a lousy stereotype. The wiser purer magical lulz thing that leaves newmans pathetic at anything other than slinging techs.

Especially since the space-elf derision pre-dates PSU. PSO Force-type newmans were magical space elvz too, and it was annoying then as well. And they were rather decidedly not wapanese then.

Again, yeah, just because they slapped a lazy-ass wanna-be Japanese culture on it doesn't make it not the same stupid space elf crap. If I want freaking magical Elves I'll go play D&D and make an elven sorceror or something.

Also, never played Warcraft anything.

Also elves were often magical fey creatures long before Tolkein, so... XP

F-Gattaca

Jun 1, 2008, 06:35 PM

Actually, AT, if it had claws, would match incredibly well for a classic numan.

Quite true, since they focus more on support techs like Nei and Rika did, while being very handy in melee. My own human AT alt does a fair job in melee combat although he'd probably do much better if I didn't stick to frying pans as his arsenal of choice, haha.

In place of that, you could make a more offensively oriented numan AF. I didn't quite realize that those weapons work off a character's TP, and they actually seem quite suited to Newmans that way. I'd actually like to see what kind of damage a Newman AF can do with a Preta.

Elves-as-magical-sissy-fairies is what gets used when people try to(Badly) get away from the Tolkein stereotype.

Not always, but perhaps could be said of Warcraft, where they turned magic into an addictive substance that has the risk of drawing the attention of one big angry guy.

And you entirely miss the point being made in calling them space elves.

It's a term of derision for a lousy stereotype. The wiser purer magical lulz thing that leaves newmans pathetic at anything other than slinging techs.

No, actually, it's a bunch of True Fans shouting "They changed it now it sucks!" Except that too many take the 'space elf' thing literally and don't understand that no, they're not really knockoff elves, they're knockoff Japanese.

The whole "LULZ SPACE ELVZ!!!!!!!111~!!!11" thing gets on my nerves--and this is coming from a guy who played the old-school Phantasy Star games before he played PSO (and played PSO before PSU), and who doesn't even have a numan character (or particular love for numans) to have a personal stock in the matter. The whole thing is just annoying.

Besides that, there's your whole "wiser purer magical lulz thing" you've brought up. So! Let's take a look at the story so far. Barring Rutsu (who shortly thereafter got a verbal smackdown by Karen and changed his tune), if the Numans had the same universal arrogance and fanatical racism that elves stereotypically have, why would so many bother joining the Guardians or living on G Colony? Why would the Communion of Gurhal allow non-numans to become clergy--even allowing a CAST to become a priest?

Especially since the space-elf derision pre-dates PSU. PSO Force-type newmans were magical space elvz too, and it was annoying then as well. And they were rather decidedly not wapanese then.

Again, yeah, just because they slapped a lazy-ass wanna-be Japanese culture on it doesn't make it not the same stupid space elf crap. If I want freaking magical Elves I'll go play D&D and make an elven sorceror or something.

I personally never heard the complaining about it until PSU. Then it seemed like all the True Fans were going "OMG THEY TURNED THE NEWMS INTO SPACE ELVES :P XP" and this includes PSO veterans I've known from before, who never complained about the PSO numans at all.

Again, these tend to be people that don't stop and think about the obvious: Japanese game. Fictional race with a pseudo-Japanese culture. On top of being a nod to Dezorians by living on a planet which sounds like "New Dezoris" and being the headquarters of a major system-wide religion, they're quite possibly fanservice for the native player base.

And besides. However odd it might seem for PSU. I've seen other balatant "token Japanese villages" in RPGs and MMORPGs that come off as far more jarring than how they've done it here.

Also elves were often magical fey creatures long before Tolkein, so... XP

Of which I'm well aware, and does little to change what I've been saying.