RAmarl gear

[avos20]

hey im a lvl 191 RAmarl and i need a suggested group of weapons i should use heres what i use frozen shooter,l&k 14 combat, and inferno bazooka.

heres what my units are god/arm god/arm god/power and god/luck


so if you got any suggestions just let me know...

[AlexCraig]

Your sig is too big. Just one of those pics and some of those words.

[redtide]

I suggest the following, assuming you play offline only and do not have the GC version.

In order of improvement, you should probably try to obtain the following:

-Spread Needle
-God/battle
-Charge Vulcan (50% hit)

Once you have those things, or if you have them already (you have many high level chars it seems), or if you play online and can trade with other players or complete challenge mode, this stuff would be a further improvement, and is *not* entirely impossible to obtain:


-Snow Queen (with hit%)
-S-Rank Needle (Berserk special)
-Charge Vulcan (with hit%)
-Demon's Laser (with hit%)
-S-Rank Needle (Demon's special)

-Sacred Cloth
-God/battle
-God/arm
-God/ability
-God/ability

-Attribute Wall


Reasoning being that the needle-class weapons will demolish enemies faster than any other type of weapon in the game, especially when paired with mechguns and a frozen shooter or snow queen for utility. The berserk and demon's S-Ranks are by far the most effective if you get your hands on them, but a regular spread needle will improve your ability significantly, while the God/battle will allow you to lock multiple enemies down just by timing your attacks with your weapons, since you attack much more quickly. The charge vulcans can be bought at the shop, the sacred cloth is a 1/2 Mil Lily drop from the Oran ID, Spread Needle is 1/900 from Purplenum, Greenill, and Yellowboze, and the much-needed God/battle comes only from Redria, so you might want to make a new character specifically for that if you do not have a redria in ultimate difficulty yet.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: redtide on 2008-04-14 19:06 ]</font>

[Nitro Vordex]

On 2008-04-14 18:53, AlexCraig wrote:
Your sig is too big. Just one of those pics and some of those words.

[redtide]

Okay, I get it. Disregard my suggestions, instead replacing them with


On 2008-04-14 18:53, AlexCraig wrote:
Your sig is too big. Just one of those pics and some of those words.




-- which is obviously much more purposeful, conditioned, and appropriate.

[Gabriel]

Hey redtide - I have a Ramarl too, but she's still developing (lv41), so the stuff you listed probably won't be a part of her game for a long while yet, but I wanted to get it out of the way already and ask -
online mode is gonna be way off-limits for me now (more than it already was, lol), which ones can I actually get offline?

I mean, I know you can get pretty much all the items, but some of them have ridiculously low drop rates, and/or are only available on special quests or as challenge prizes online. What I'm asking is, which ones should I prepare myself for chasing, from a realistic point of view?


P.S.
My sig is too big. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Nitro Vordex]

On 2008-04-14 20:38, redtide wrote:
Okay, I get it. Disregard my suggestions, instead replacing them with


On 2008-04-14 18:53, AlexCraig wrote:
Your sig is too big. Just one of those pics and some of those words.




-- which is obviously much more purposeful, conditioned, and appropriate.





Yes. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[avos20]

well its would depend on your section id if your a virdia i would suggest the inferno bazooka they find that from a al rappy on hard mode. if i have your section id i can give you more information

[Nitro Vordex]

>_>
Newbies. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif

Why a Snow Queen? From what I've seen, it's a waste of a Frozen Shooter.

[Splash]

Snow Queen is a Frozen Shooter except it freezes multiple monsters in a linear row and can't combo. Why you need to combo with a Frozen Shooter is beyond me, as that is unnecessary most of the time. Although Snow Queen fails without hit on it.

[redtide]

You can get God/Battle if you manage to get a Redria character into Ultimate. If you can do that, you can get God/Battle pretty easily no matter what character it is.

Frozen Shooter is just a little easier to get, but you'll need to do the same thing with a different character. For Frozen Shooter, you should pipe a Hildetorr with one of the FS IDs.

Spread Needle can be found by some of the IDs that also find Frozen Shooter, but you'll have to find it in Ultimate Ruins, unfortunately. It is by no means impossible to do offline (I did it, anyway), but I had the other things way before I got my needle. Regardless, the needle is probably the best weapon you could get at that point.


The above can be obtained fairly easily with a Redria and a Yellowboze/Purplenum/Greenill.




As for Snow Queen, what splash said is contradictory. SQ and FS have the same base ATA. If SQ does not have hit, it will miss. If FS does not have hit, it too will miss on the first attack, requiring a combo to ensure a hit. That is why you need to be able to combo with FS. Optimally, of course, having an obscene amount of hit on a Snow Queen would be the best for almost every situation, with very few exceptions. If you'd like, I could list those exceptions.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: redtide on 2008-04-16 20:02 ]</font>

[Splash]

On 2008-04-16 20:00, redtide wrote:
As for Snow Queen, what splash said is contradictory. SQ and FS have the same base ATA. If SQ does not have hit, it will miss. If FS does not have hit, it too will miss on the first attack, requiring a combo to ensure a hit.
I said most of the time. Read carefully.


That is why you need to be able to combo with FS. Optimally, of course, having an obscene amount of hit on a Snow Queen would be the best for almost every situation, with very few exceptions. If you'd like, I could list those exceptions.

Snow Queen is still inferior in many cases, even with the high hit amount, as it can still miss.

[Nitro Vordex]

On 2008-04-14 22:53, Splash wrote:
Snow Queen is a Frozen Shooter except it freezes multiple monsters in a linear row and can't combo. Why you need to combo with a Frozen Shooter is beyond me, as that is unnecessary most of the time. Although Snow Queen fails without hit on it.


So it pierces like a Red Scorpio does?

I only mentioned Red Scorpio because I forgot their class. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[Splash]

Yes, like launchers except no combo and the special doesn't always freeze the enemies in the row.

[Weeaboolits]

Doesn't Frozen Shooter have a chance to freeze the user as well? Or am I thinking of something else?

[Nitro Vordex]

yeah, FZ randomly freezes.
Switching weapons can cancel this effect.

Frozen Shooter's freeze ability is amazing, I've only missed with it twice.

[redtide]

Okay, lets get technical if you do not believe I read your post carefully.


On 2008-04-14 22:53, Splash wrote:
Snow Queen is a Frozen Shooter except it freezes multiple monsters in a linear row and can't combo. Why you need to combo with a Frozen Shooter is beyond me, as that is unnecessary most of the time. Although Snow Queen fails without hit on it.



"Why you need to combo with a Frozen Shooter is beyond me, as that is unnecessary most of the time."

Why would you say "... is beyond me ...", if you are implying that you realize why you would need to combo to ensure success? That is a contradiction (in the same sentence, no less). Then you provide a counter argument in favor of the Frozen Shooter.

Now, as for the "many" enemies that Snow Queen will miss, that entirely depends on the amount of hit% you have, and what version and server you play on. On Blue Burst, you can wear Ranger Wall. In some cases you might have Red Ring available. Both of these add 20 ATA, and effectively reduce the necessary hit% by 20. I find that 355 ATA is plenty for general-purpose Snow Queen use, as the only enemy in Ep1 you will miss is a Delsaber. In Ep2, many enemies will be able to dodge your SQ attack. Until you have about 370 ATA, you will even miss all three Ep2 Sinows. In Ep4 you won't miss anything with over 350 ATA.

Even if you had 100% hit on your SQ and Ranger Wall, you would still miss Delsaber, Ill Gill, Merikle, Deldepth, Zol Gibbon, and even Ul Gibbon (although not Delbiter or the Sinow anymore). For those enemies, you will need Frozen Shooter to accurately freeze them. However, I wouldn't bother bringing my FS just to hit Delsaber, since Androids have traps and any spell will stun a Delsaber for a lengthy period of time (by comparison to the other enemies), making them far easier to kill. We are rangers, remember. Aside from Delsaber, all of those enemies are found in the latter part of Episode 2. Also, unless you are playing the japanese Blue Burst quests, you won't find much use for SQ in that part of Ep2, anyway. However, Ep2 is by far the least popular episode, and everywhere else will be open for using Snow Queen flawlessly. That includes all of Episode 1, at least Temple+Spaceship and perhaps both Jungle areas (few Zol Gibbon) of Episode 2, and all of Episode 4.


By the way, Snow Queen WILL shoot everything in a row. What happens when it only freezes the enemy in front of you is that the tip of your barrel will generate its bullet behind the frontmost part of your target. Even if it appears as if there is distance between your enemy and your Snow Queen, according to the game, there isn't. This causes the shot to aim upwards, since the vector from the origin (tip of your barrel) to the target is actually above and behind your gun. You just have to stand a slightly farther distance away from the target to make sure its attack will fire properly.

And for the above poster, Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen do not have a chance to freeze you, instead, but rather they will freeze you at random intervals while equipped. Oftentimes you will never see it happen in a game unless you leave your FS/SQ equipped for the majority of the time. Even while soloing PW4 I leave mine equipped, since the chance to be frozen by it is that low. Out of my years of playing this game, the self-freeze attribute of FS and SQ has gotten me killed only once. This is after a few hundred million EXP.

[Splash]

On 2008-04-16 23:53, redtide wrote:
"Why you need to combo with a Frozen Shooter is beyond me, as that is unnecessary most of the time."

Why would you say "... is beyond me ...", if you are implying that you realize why you would need to combo to ensure success? That is a contradiction (in the same sentence, no less). Then you provide a counter argument in favor of the Frozen Shooter.
The former of the sentence is a mass hyperbole, the latter part proves that it is a hyperbole. So there is no way that is a contradiction.


Now, as for the "many" enemies that Snow Queen will miss, that entirely depends on the amount of hit% you have, and what version and server you play on. On Blue Burst, you can wear Ranger Wall. In some cases you might have Red Ring available. Both of these add 20 ATA, and effectively reduce the necessary hit% by 20. I find that 355 ATA is plenty for general-purpose Snow Queen use, as the only enemy in Ep1 you will miss is a Delsaber. In Ep2, many enemies will be able to dodge your SQ attack. Until you have about 370 ATA, you will even miss all three Ep2 Sinows. In Ep4 you won't miss anything with over 350 ATA.
I laugh at Blue Burst even more then. Proves how damn unbalanced the game is.


Even if you had 100% hit on your SQ and Ranger Wall, you would still miss Delsaber, Ill Gill, Merikle, Deldepth, Zol Gibbon, and even Ul Gibbon (although not Delbiter or the Sinow anymore).
Any moving monster will still have misses also. Go ahead, try it out on a moving Mericarol that is charging at you. Go ahead and try it out on a jumping Sinow. Very little chance that it will freeze with a Snow Queen.


For those enemies, you will need Frozen Shooter to accurately freeze them. However, I wouldn't bother bringing my FS just to hit Delsaber, since Androids have traps and any spell will stun a Delsaber for a lengthy period of time (by comparison to the other enemies), making them far easier to kill. We are rangers, remember.
So you are implying that the Frozen Shooter is not necessary on a Delsaber then? Frozen >>>> Stun.


Aside from Delsaber, all of those enemies are found in the latter part of Episode 2. Also, unless you are playing the japanese Blue Burst quests, you won't find much use for SQ in that part of Ep2, anyway. However, Ep2 is by far the least popular episode, and everywhere else will be open for using Snow Queen flawlessly. That includes all of Episode 1, at least Temple+Spaceship and perhaps both Jungle areas (few Zol Gibbon) of Episode 2, and all of Episode 4.
Contradicts what you said earlier then.

(although not Delbiter or the Sinow anymore)
If that were so true, then Snow Queen is just as effective in ep2 as to other episodes as well.


By the way, Snow Queen WILL shoot everything in a row. What happens when it only freezes the enemy in front of you is that the tip of your barrel will generate its bullet behind the frontmost part of your target. Even if it appears as if there is distance between your enemy and your Snow Queen, according to the game, there isn't. This causes the shot to aim upwards, since the vector from the origin (tip of your barrel) to the target is actually above and behind your gun. You just have to stand a slightly farther distance away from the target to make sure its attack will fire properly.
Oh sure, if it has a high amount of hit. Otherwise, it WILL show a miss regardless if they are in a row. It may freeze some monsters, but not all of them in the row.


And for the above poster, Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen do not have a chance to freeze you, instead, but rather they will freeze you at random intervals while equipped.

"Have a chance" = Random chance

[Nitro Vordex]

Wow, this looks familiar, eh Splash?

[Weeaboolits]

At any rate, I haven't gotten on ult yet, but I would suggest ditching the bazooka. From my experience it's not terribly useful on anything but FOmarl, it's rather slow for a single target weapon.

[Rob19]

in my experience using my 55h SQ on ill gills, it works. so long as they're walking of course. it may not work 100% of the time but it works more than 50% i'd say. yes its on a ramar, and yes its on GC. >>

[redtide]

The former of the sentence is a mass hyperbole, the latter part proves that it is a hyperbole. So there is no way that is a contradiction.

When the motives for saying two things contradict each other, it forms a contradiction, whether or not the statements themselves contradict the other. At first, you display an exaggerated disgust with the necessity of requiring a Frozen Shooter (so that a combo attack can be made, vastly improving accuracy), followed by a statement that clearly displays room for the necessity of such a situation. The "most" that you refer to would apply to every area in which SQ with moderate hit would be more effective, while the resulting exceptions would require FS for consistency. Your following sentence provides a simple counter-example which implies that SQ would fail because it cannot combo, as it has no hit%. How is FS any better if you do not need to combo "most of the time?" If your SQ fails "most of the time" without hit, then so will your FS without making a combo attack "most of the time". This is the contradiction.







Any moving monster will still have misses also. Go ahead, try it out on a moving Mericarol that is charging at you. Go ahead and try it out on a jumping Sinow. Very little chance that it will freeze with a Snow Queen.

No. The special attacks of Frozen Shooter, Ruby Bullet, and the normal, heavy, and special attack of Snow Queen are unaffected by the manual evasion that causes your bullets to MISS (read: the letters M-I-S-S appear in read on your screen) as enemies are moving. How about you practice what you preach? Take your SQ and try it on a moving Mericarol or the Ep1 Sinows (each of these enemies have low enough EVP that SQ can consistently hit without missing, so any "miss" would be able prove me wrong). As for the Sinow, it is possible to miss (read: not hit the target) because your shot will not even hit the enemy (it will arc over your shot). However, it will not say M-I-S-S on-screen. Furthermore, if you shoot the Sinow while it is in the air, it will freeze right in front of your character, while other guns would display the M-I-S-S that you are getting at (through manual evasion), and the Sinow will begin to pummel you. I have provided a video to display how one might go about freezing a Sinow that is jumping at you. Bear in mind that I have about 355 ATA, and the following video shows not the fastest way to kill both of those Sinow Blue as efficiently as possible, but rather how to freeze one that would be otherwise flying at you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLKOMb-YcuI




So you are implying that the Frozen Shooter is not necessary on a Delsaber then? Frozen >>>> Stun. Yes. I am implying that Frozen Shooter is not necessary on a Delsaber. You will typically fight them in groups. Alone, they are a joke. In a group, Frozen Shooter is hardly necessary, as is freezing them (with FS/SQ) in the first place.



Contradicts what you said earlier then.
How? I generally do not use SQ in any of the non-VR areas of Ep2. I bring FS instead, since its purpose is primarily to freeze high-EVP targets that cannot be otherwise Combo-killed with my Charge Vulcan or Hell weapons (such as Zol Gibbon, which are abundant in Mountain, but not in Jungle. That leaves the following areas (for me).

Forest (SQ)
Caves (SQ)
Mines (SQ)
Ruins (SQ)
Temple (SQ)
Spaceship (SQ)
CCA- Jungle, Mountain & Seaside (FS)
Seabed (FS)
Control Towers (FS)
Crater East, West, North, South(SQ)
Interior (SQ)
Subterranean Desert (SQ)

By far the least played area (for me) is CCA, followed by Seabed, then probably the Crater Interior. I imagine most players will be doing (most of the time) Episode 1 (TTF, which spans all three areas), Episode 4 (which doesn't change much no matter where you are), and MSB or RT in Episode 2. You could easily get by without FS most of the time.



(although not Delbiter or the Sinow anymore)If that were so true, then Snow Queen is just as effective in ep2 as to other episodes as well.
How? You still miss Zol Gibbon, Ul Gibbon, Merikle, Mericus, Ill Gill, and Deldepth. Those areas (the latter part of Episode 2, the only place I do not use SQ over FS) are going to have those enemies present. Furthermore, I use S-Rank Demon's Mechs in Tower, and FS is going to be better regardless of whether or not you can hit the enemies, since FS can make a combo attack. If you are going to pick on me for saying this, I could explain, since I highly doubt this part makes any sense to you. To clarify, what I just said is in response to your quote, which states that if what I said turned out to be true, then Snow Queen would be just as effective in Ep2 as in other Episodes, which it is not. I believe SQ to be far superior to FS, since those areas of the game are far less played than the remaining areas.





Oh sure, if it has a high amount of hit. Otherwise, it WILL show a miss regardless if they are in a row. It may freeze some monsters, but not all of them in the row.

Now what are you getting at? If you are assuming that the SQ does not have enough hit% to hit every enemy in the area 100% of the time with its special, then you need a new SQ, and there is nothing to do about it. However, if this area is Ruins 1 or Ruins 2 (the areas of the game that have near-1000 EVP delsabers), you should learn to fight more effectively, as it is hardly necessary to freeze delsaber (with FS/SQ) to deal with them efficiently. Now, if you are assuming that "it WILL show miss regardless of if they are in a row" if you do not have enough hit% to hit them all (in which case you should focus on getting a new SQ, as previously stated), yet there is no possibility of freezing all of them anyway, then that is purely ignorant. As long as you can hit each of the enemies with your attack, it is possible to freeze all of them. Since you follow with "It may freeze some monsters, but not all of them in a row," it stands to reason that




Doesn't Frozen Shooter have a chance to freeze the user as well? Or am I thinking of something else?
And for the above poster, Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen do not have a chance to freeze you, instead, but rather they will freeze you at random intervals while equipped.

"Have a chance" = Random chance

It should read, "Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen do not have a chance to freeze you when you use the special, but instead will freeze you at random intervals while equipped." Sorry for the confusion, but that is what I was trying to explain to one who asked the question, rather than give you another mistake to point out, since you have no other way of proving me wrong.




How about you explain yourself before looking for more errors in my posts.

[Splash]

On 2008-04-17 11:49, redtide wrote:
When the motives for saying two things contradict each other, it forms a contradiction, whether or not the statements themselves contradict the other. At first, you display an exaggerated disgust with the necessity of requiring a Frozen Shooter (so that a combo attack can be made, vastly improving accuracy), followed by a statement that clearly displays room for the necessity of such a situation. The "most" that you refer to would apply to every area in which SQ with moderate hit would be more effective, while the resulting exceptions would require FS for consistency. Your following sentence provides a simple counter-example which implies that SQ would fail because it cannot combo, as it has no hit%. How is FS any better if you do not need to combo "most of the time?" If your SQ fails "most of the time" without hit, then so will your FS without making a combo attack "most of the time". This is the contradiction.
So now you are placing false assumptions. When did I exactly say that without a combo the Frozen Shooter would miss most of the time? I said that it was "unnecessary most of the time" (i.e. unnecessary to perform combos), I didn't say that without a combo, it would miss most of the time.

The only thing I'll admit is true from what you said above is that it is a contradiction. However, regardless if it is, by the definition of hyperbole, statement is not suppose to be taken literally, which apparently you are.


No. The special attacks of Frozen Shooter, Ruby Bullet, and the normal, heavy, and special attack of Snow Queen are unaffected by the manual evasion that causes your bullets to MISS (read: the letters M-I-S-S appear in read on your screen) as enemies are moving. How about you practice what you preach? Take your SQ and try it on a moving Mericarol or the Ep1 Sinows (each of these enemies have low enough EVP that SQ can consistently hit without missing, so any "miss" would be able prove me wrong).
Lv80 RAmarl with just enough DEX on mag to use SQ, 75% hit SQ, no ATA boost units/armor/shield, "MISS". Results from a lack of ATA, but it is enough to counter your accusation that it won't miss.


As for the Sinow, it is possible to miss (read: not hit the target) because your shot will not even hit the enemy (it will arc over your shot). However, it will not say M-I-S-S on-screen. Furthermore, if you shoot the Sinow while it is in the air, it will freeze right in front of your character, while other guns would display the M-I-S-S that you are getting at (through manual evasion), and the Sinow will begin to pummel you. I have provided a video to display how one might go about freezing a Sinow that is jumping at you. Bear in mind that I have about 355 ATA, and the following video shows not the fastest way to kill both of those Sinow Blue as efficiently as possible, but rather how to freeze one that would be otherwise flying at you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLKOMb-YcuI
So you are using one specification, one that has high ATA. How about using a general example (i.e. one with minimal ATA)? Furthermore, when you said Sinow, I was under the impression that it was either a Sinow Zoa or Sinow Zele, not one of the weaker Sinows in Mines. Since none of them are on your list of exceptions, none should have a problem then with a SQ hitting accurately on them.




Yes. I am implying that Frozen Shooter is not necessary on a Delsaber. You will typically fight them in groups. Alone, they are a joke. In a group, Frozen Shooter is hardly necessary, as is freezing them (with FS/SQ) in the first place.
Lolz because you have mechs right? Fail. If they are apparently not necessary even in groups, I like to see some melee action (i.e. close range combat) on a non-android character (since androids have freeze traps, which are obviously good) without the FS/SQ inovlved, using your said method of stunning them and actually killing them faster than the time it takes with a FS/SQ involved. Any idiot could use hit mechs and be able to kill them in split seconds. Melee close range is more of a "challenge", so to speak.


How? I generally do not use SQ in any of the non-VR areas of Ep2. I bring FS instead, since its purpose is primarily to freeze high-EVP targets that cannot be otherwise Combo-killed with my Charge Vulcan or Hell weapons (such as Zol Gibbon, which are abundant in Mountain, but not in Jungle. That leaves the following areas (for me).

Forest (SQ)
Caves (SQ)
Mines (SQ)
Ruins (SQ)
Temple (SQ)
Spaceship (SQ)
CCA- Jungle, Mountain & Seaside (FS)
Seabed (FS)
Control Towers (FS)
Crater East, West, North, South(SQ)
Interior (SQ)
Subterranean Desert (SQ)

By far the least played area (for me) is CCA, followed by Seabed, then probably the Crater Interior. I imagine most players will be doing (most of the time) Episode 1 (TTF, which spans all three areas), Episode 4 (which doesn't change much no matter where you are), and MSB or RT in Episode 2. You could easily get by without FS most of the time.
And of course, you are under the assumption that the character is apparently a high level character. If "most players" are doing said quests, I love to see them pass by RT/all of MSB at a low Ultimate level (i.e. Lv80-100ish) without a Frozen Shooter. Furthermore...



How? You still miss Zol Gibbon, Ul Gibbon, Merikle, Mericus, Ill Gill, and Deldepth. Those areas (the latter part of Episode 2, the only place I do not use SQ over FS) are going to have those enemies present. Furthermore, I use S-Rank Demon's Mechs in Tower, and FS is going to be better regardless of whether or not you can hit the enemies, since FS can make a combo attack. If you are going to pick on me for saying this, I could explain, since I highly doubt this part makes any sense to you. To clarify, what I just said is in response to your quote, which states that if what I said turned out to be true, then Snow Queen would be just as effective in Ep2 as in other Episodes, which it is not. I believe SQ to be far superior to FS, since those areas of the game are far less played than the remaining areas.
The contradiction made was that you said that SQ would be able to freeze Delbiters and Sinows (by assumption, this would count to Berills, Spigells, Zoas, and Zeles) yet you are using a FS for said areas since it is apparently more "effective" for Seabeds. The only monster left that will have a more difficult time getting hit with SQ is Deldepth, which is just one monster, meaning that SQ in Seabed is just as effective as FS in Seabed, which if you say is more "superior", then you should be able to use SQ regardless if it is less effective or not. With respect to CCA, same thing, just one monster (Ul Gibbons can still be freeze easily so irrevalant), thus SQ would have very little impact on clearing the area, so again if SQ is really "superior", it shouldn't have any problems as if FS was used. How much the areas are played is irrevalant so I have no idea why you brought it up. If SQ can clear CCA and Seabeds, then it can clear CCA and Seabeds so FS does not need to be a substitute then.



Now what are you getting at? If you are assuming that the SQ does not have enough hit% to hit every enemy in the area 100% of the time with its special, then you need a new SQ, and there is nothing to do about it.
That was what I impliedly said, if it "has a high amount of hit". 30% hit is not "high".


However, if this area is Ruins 1 or Ruins 2 (the areas of the game that have near-1000 EVP delsabers), you should learn to fight more effectively, as it is hardly necessary to freeze delsaber (with FS/SQ) to deal with them efficiently.
And again, because you are using lolz mechs. Effective =/= efficient. Stunning them might work, but there is no way that it can be considered "efficient".


Now, if you are assuming that "it WILL show miss regardless of if they are in a row" if you do not have enough hit% to hit them all (in which case you should focus on getting a new SQ, as previously stated), yet there is no possibility of freezing all of them anyway, then that is purely ignorant.
By "row", I do mean literally a "row" (i.e. monsters are behind one another linearly).


As long as you can hit each of the enemies with your attack, it is possible to freeze all of them.
Which apparently has "no possiblity" if it lacks the amount of hit to do so.



Since you follow with "It may freeze some monsters, but not all of them in a row," it stands to reason that
I'm going to assume you didn't finish your sentence, as opposed to that you lost what you were going to say.


It should read, "Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen do not have a chance to freeze you when you use the special, but instead will freeze you at random intervals while equipped." Sorry for the confusion, but that is what I was trying to explain to one who asked the question, rather than give you another mistake to point out, since you have no other way of proving me wrong.
I just did.


How about you explain yourself before looking for more errors in my posts.

See this wall of text post.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Splash on 2008-04-17 19:37 ]</font>

[Nitro Vordex]

On 2008-04-17 19:37, Splash wrote:
Melee close range is more of a "challenge", so to speak.

True, although Delsabers aren't incredibly hard anyways. Quick tap from the front, then run around back and pummel.

Or Barta. =/

[redtide]

I am certain that you understand how the game works, and have a general idea of how much ATA is required to hit with what attacks. I hope that you understand that I understand this as well. If you cannot, then the arguments that we will continue to present against each other are mere fallacies taken out of context.

This is exactly what I would like you to answer me:

1) Did you believe that you cannot freeze a charging Mericarol or jumping Sinow due to manual evasion? If so (which I believe to be the case), you have learned something about the properties of those irregular weapons. That alone would be worth my time here.

2) Do you honestly think that freezing a delsaber with Frozen Shooter/Snow Queen is the fastest way to kill it? Perhaps you would care to enlighten me with some proof, as opposed to mere talk, as I have yet to see compelling evidence.

3) Why do you continue to degrade the conflict and argument to that of off-topic banter? That achieves nothing. I am here for my own benefit, nothing more. By arguing I think critically, and thus I learn. However, I also enjoy being right. If I can kill two birds with one stone in this manner, I will.

4) (This one is new) What is the fastest way to deal with a Deldepth for our high-level, maxed ATA, perfect equipment-RAmarl?


That being said, lets get started:


And of course, you are under the assumption that the character is apparently a high level character. If "most players" are doing said quests, I love to see them pass by RT/all of MSB at a low Ultimate level (i.e. Lv80-100ish) without a Frozen Shooter. Furthermore...
Playing it by themselves is irrelevant. It is a FACT that most players are playing TTF, even at this very minute, regardless of their level. That is what I said earlier, and the rest is just you going off on a tangent about low-level play.
EDIT: If you did not mean playing it by themselves (alone), I retract that statement, but a party of Lv80-100s can easily make it through each of those quests without Frozen Shooter. Nonetheless, you said nothing about playing alone, so I'd hate to be further accused of putting words in your mouth.



Even if you had 100% hit on your SQ and Ranger Wall, you would still miss Delsaber, Ill Gill, Merikle, Deldepth, Zol Gibbon, and even Ul Gibbon (although not Delbiter or the Sinow anymore).
This is what I said, for reference.

The contradiction made was that you said that SQ would be able to freeze Delbiters and Sinows (by assumption, this would count to Berills, Spigells, Zoas, and Zeles) yet you are using a FS for said areas since it is apparently more "effective" for Seabeds. The only monster left that will have a more difficult time getting hit with SQ is Deldepth, which is just one monster, meaning that SQ in Seabed is just as effective as FS in Seabed, which if you say is more "superior", then you should be able to use SQ regardless if it is less effective or not. With respect to CCA, same thing, just one monster (Ul Gibbons can still be freeze easily so irrevalant), thus SQ would have very little impact on clearing the area, so again if SQ is really "superior", it shouldn't have any problems as if FS was used. How much the areas are played is irrevalant so I have no idea why you brought it up. If SQ can clear CCA and Seabeds, then it can clear CCA and Seabeds so FS does not need to be a substitute then.
This is with a 100% hit Snow Queen, if you recall the original statement. How do you fight Deldepth? I prefer to freeze them with SSS combo of my Frozen Shooter (the initial MISS keeps it from attacking) or use my Zalure Needle on a group, firing blank normal attacks at the start of my combos to keep them from acting. I also like to be able to get a second hit (from a combo attack) with Frozen Shooter as opposed to just using a Snow Queen. First of all, my SQ does not have anywhere near 100% hit, so it is out of the question. Second of all, I use FS because it is easier to use to freeze things that spawn late, and for many enemies I freeze first then blast with half of a charge vulcan combo. I am used to how many hits it takes to kill each enemy, and doing one more hit with my FS will often allow me to combo-kill with the subsequent vulcan attack that I would otherwise be unable to (by using SQ) do. FS is more effective in my opinion, but if I had a 100% hit SQ I would most likely find it enough of a reason to bring both of those weapons down to Seabed with me. However, with the current 35% hit one I have (equivalent to a 55% hit one on GC, I suppose, due to BB gear), that is not the case, since the only thing it is able to freeze consistently... is a squid, box, or morfos. Each of which better (in my case) dealt with by Hell.




Lv80 RAmarl with just enough DEX on mag to use SQ, 75% hit SQ, no ATA boost units/armor/shield, "MISS". Results from a lack of ATA, but it is enough to counter your accusation that it won't miss.

If you have at least a 0% hit FS or SQ, leading with the special attack with approximately 230 base ATA or more will ensure success, and there will be no MISS due to manual evasion or ATA vs EVP calculation. That is what is relevant to the topic, since you specifically said that there is very little chance that it will freeze with Snow Queen. I realize that you could respond by saying that it was not directly relating to the Mericarol example, and that you were merely stating a well-known fact in general. I know what you meant. That is what I was trying to expand on, since you were unaware that FS/SQ were immune to such manual evasion. That is why I gave the example in the first place. Do you understand? Yes. Do you need to say anything else? No. Will you? Yes.



So you are using one specification, one that has high ATA. How about using a general example (i.e. one with minimal ATA)? Furthermore, when you said Sinow, I was under the impression that it was either a Sinow Zoa or Sinow Zele, not one of the weaker Sinows in Mines. Since none of them are on your list of exceptions, none should have a problem then with a SQ hitting accurately on them.

If I did not use a high ATA specification, the MISS could be due to not having enough ATA. That should be obvious, but for someone such as yourself, looking for nothing more than a flaw in my logic, it might not be so obvious. In order to prove that the manual evasion is inexistent, it must be impossible to miss the enemy whatsoever. With extremely high ATA, it is possible to still miss with other weapons due to manual evasion. Without the manual evasion, it would not miss. With lower ATA, the miss could be attributed to the low ATA. However,that does not prove anything about the immunity to manual evasion that is a property of SQ's attacks and FS's special attack. That is what I was trying to prove.




Lolz because you have mechs right? Fail. If they are apparently not necessary even in groups, I like to see some melee action (i.e. close range combat) on a non-android character (since androids have freeze traps, which are obviously good) without the FS/SQ inovlved, using your said method of stunning them and actually killing them faster than the time it takes with a FS/SQ involved. Any idiot could use hit mechs and be able to kill them in split seconds. Melee close range is more of a "challenge", so to speak.

What are you talking about? I still believe that I kill them faster without FS/SQ. I also believe that I can kill them faster with melee and stunning with rabarta. I do not, however, understand what kind of point this is supposed to make other than your completely ignorance of my tactic. It is simply you that cannot wrap your mind around how that might be carried out. The fact that you are talking about "melee" or a "challenge" whatsoever just disgusts me, and further proves your ignorance. The fact that using melee on a group in the first place can probably kill them faster than your preferred method makes me chuckle. The fact that you need to reduce your arguments to include lower-level play merely shows that you have a weak argument. This is exactly the same principle to which you apply your justification of finding holes in my argument through minor grammatical errors that literally end up changing the meaning of my words, although the thought behind them, the part that counts, is completely overlooked, since it does not help your argument in any way.





As long as you can hit each of the enemies with your attack, it is possible to freeze all of them.Which apparently has "no possiblity" if it lacks the amount of hit to do so.
What I said is true. It is not an if-and-only-if statement, but merely a if-then statement. I'm not sure what you meant by that, but I am almost positive it has to do with another "lower-level" or "less-than-optimal" point of view.



I'm going to assume you didn't finish your sentence, as opposed to that you lost what you were going to say.
I have since forgotten what I was planning to say, as I obviously never finished typing it. However, here is the original quote:
Oh sure, if it has a high amount of hit. Otherwise, it WILL show a miss regardless if they are in a row. It may freeze some monsters, but not all of them in the row.
What I am taking from this is that you agree with me that it works if it has high hit. If it does not, then that is irrelevant, since I specifically only care about SQ if it has enough hit to reach 355 or more ATA. A breakpoint, if you will. 345 if you don't care about Ep1 sinow, 355 if you do, 365 if you care about some of the Sub Desert Ep4 stuff that shouldn't be hit with SQ as it is, and over 370 if you need to hit the Delbiters. Any of those "breakpoints" are great if you can reach them. Nonetheless, you go on about situations in which you don't have enough ATA. If you don't, what does it matter? You don't have enough.




And again, because you are using lolz mechs. Effective =/= efficient. Stunning them might work, but there is no way that it can be considered "efficient".
Sure there is. Why do you need to freeze them? I can just KILL them. In much the same way that I wouldn't freeze or paralyze a group of grunts. I would just outright kill them, saving myself a combo or two by slowing my attacks slightly (stunning, as I put it earlier). That is more efficient. Again, it is your ignorance that cannot grasp this concept.





And of course, you are under the assumption that the character is apparently a high level character.Did you read the first post? Read the first line of this topic. It is you, sir, who is the failure. Not I. Please pardon any excessive banter, and furthermore, any unfinished thoughts.



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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: redtide on 2008-04-17 22:43 ]</font>